How to Reduce Oxidative Stress – Especially If You Have an MTHFR Mutation

Hello, everyone, it's Dr. Donni and I'm glad to see you all here on Facebook. And I'm here tonight to talk about, well, oxidative stress, which I know might be a new term for you. So we're going to talk about what that is, and I want to really tie it into gut health and how what's going on in our gut, our digestion, influences our health all over the rest of our body. And so it's going to be really fun. So anyway, please write in, please either, you know, click like or send me a comment and let me know that you're here. And if you have comments or questions you want me to address, then I'm, of course, happy to do that. So I'm going to watch for that. And yeah, so again, I'm Dr. Donni Wilson. I'm a naturopathic doctor and I would say I'm an expert in stress and how stress affects our health and stress in many different types of stress. So of course, there's this time of year, the holiday stress, which I think is a really big reminder to a lot of us of what stress looks like in our lives. So it could be there's long to do lists and not enough sleep and not enough time in the day. There's also financial stress and there's food stress, certain foods that are a stress to our body, as well as toxins in the environment and metals that we get exposed to. Anything, basically, that makes it harder for our bodies to be healthy. And by addressing those stresses and understanding how stress affects us, then it just allows our bodies to function more optimally. And when they function more optimally, we feel better. So that's the equation that I work with, including integrating in what we can know about our genetics and how that influences our reaction to stress. So again today, I'm really talking about a blog post that I wrote, my most recent blog post that is about what is oxidative stress and how can we reverse it. So I'm going to put the link in so that you can, you can find that blog post and that way you can, you know, read and learn a lot more about this. But I know that it can help to, you know, get to chat about it. And it's fun because when I write a blog post, you know, it's just written for you to read on your own. But when we can, when we can.

Chat like this on Facebook, it makes it more real. So I'm looking forward to your questions. Let's see. So let's start with what is oxidative stress. And if any of you know, please type it in. I want, I'm really excited to hear the way you think about oxidative stress and how you, what your words are to describe it. Just like inflammation, it's another thing. Oxidative stress and inflammation is thing that goes on inside our bodies that.

You know, it's. It kind of, I would say it's sort of invisible. We can't sometimes we can't really see it or we can feel it usually and we can talk about the symptoms. That often would tell you that there's some oxidative stress. But first I just want to see if I can give a good description of it. I really try in my blogs and you know, this way too with patients is to translate science into real language. Because I really believe that the more that we all understand the science of what's going on inside our bodies, the more empowering that is to make choices that are going to be beneficial for your health. You guys feel that way too? I mean, I'm curious if you. The more you know about your body and the more you understand about what's going on in there, does that help you in terms of making choices about, you know, either food or exercise or sleep? Anyway, that's what I find about myself. So that's what I like to do for you, is to translate the science. So when I come across a term like oxidative stress, I don't turn away from it. I like to just say it and explain it and so you really understand it. So a lot of times you'll, when you see a description of oxidative stress, that'll say that it's like rust inside of our bodies, which is true. You know, if you think about rust on metal, it's the same chemical oxidative process. So you could think of it as like a rusting process inside of our bodies across. It doesn't look the same as rust, but it's the same chemical type reaction. I tend to think of it more like.

See, the thing is that oxidative stress is a normal process. So we couldn't be alive and human if we didn't have some oxidative stress. And the reason for that is, I'm going to bring up another little science word here is mitochondria. And I talk about mitochondria in this blog post as well. Mitochondria are the little engines inside of every single one of our cells in our body, right? So it just makes us sort of stop and think, oh my Gosh, our bodies are made up of little cells, trillions of little cells, right? Isn't that amazing that we're made up of little cells? And inside of every little cell, or almost every little cell, is a mitochondria. And the mitochondria are like little engines. They're the little engines that make our energy. We wouldn't be, you know, watching a video or talking or thinking or doing anything if it weren't for the little mitochondria making energy for us to do that. And mitochondria, while they're running their engine, they're also creating some oxidative stress. So you could even think of oxidative stress almost like exhaust with a car. You know, like if you were going to run your car and drive, you would just know that there's going to be exhaust. You know, you can't run the engine without having some exhaust there. And to some degree that a little bit of exhaust is okay. Our bodies are also built to deal with that exhaust, so to speak. You know, we have our bodies make. If you were to think of it like an anti. Antioxidant, right? An antioxidative stress is the same as an antioxidant. So when we think of antioxidants, it would be things like vitamin C and selenium and zinc and glutathione. These are antioxidants that some of which we get inside of our bodies. Some of them we get from our food or supplements. But these antioxidants are the things that help make sure that the exhaust from the mitochondria running doesn't cause damage. But what can happen is when we don't have enough antioxidants around in our body. And this brings it back to some of the genetics, right? So if we know that some of us have certain genetics that may decrease our ability to make as much antioxidants. And if your diet has less antioxidants, then you might not have enough antioxidants to counterbalance the exhaust, so to speak, that's being made by your mitochondria. And so if that's out of balance, then it can create symptoms in the body, and it can vary from person to person. It's not like it's one symptom for everybody. So it could be.

Fatigue. You know, sometimes just feeling tired can be a sign that you have higher oxidative stress. It could be, let's see, achiness, like joint pain or muscle pain. It could even be a diagnosis, like a diagnosis of fibromyalgia for example, right away, it tells me with fibromyalgia that there's got to be some oxidative stress going on in the body for those symptoms to be happening. It can be something specific, like, say, glaucoma. Maybe you've heard of an eye condition called glaucoma or even dementia. We now know from research that dementia or decreased memory is associated with higher oxidative stress in the body.

And some other things that we associate with aging would be caused by oxidative stress, like, say, wrinkles on our skin or gray hair or, you know, a lot of times people will just say, oh, that's just because you're getting older. Well, to me, I wouldn't. I would say, well, the reason it's. We're saying it's because you're getting older is because you have a higher amount of oxidative stress in your body. And that's. That just accumulates with time. And it also, I think, is that, you know, with time in life, we had more stress exposure, more exposure to toxins in the environment, which, once we're exposed to toxins, it makes it harder for the mitochondria to do their work. So then it's like they're just trying to run this engine uphill, and it. So it just. The whole system gets bogged down. And so that helps you guys to understand how oxidative stress occurs in the body and what these mitochondria are doing and why antioxidants are so important. I see some people liking. So thank you, and please tell me who you are or comment so I can welcome you as well, because I'm glad you guys are here, and I'm excited for your questions. So.

When we think about oxidative stress, we don't always think of it as being caused from our gut. Right. So I'm talking about a lot of external stresses, but the gut is a potential internal stress, you know, so a stress that comes from within our bodies that still does increase oxidation or oxidative stress in our bodies. So let's think about that a little bit more because I think we start to really get a sense that our gut health is so important. Even if you don't feel symptoms, I can't tell you how many people will just say to me, my gut feels fine. My digestion is just totally happy and good, and I don't feel anything bad there. But still, even without any symptoms, it's possible that you could have some imbalance of the healthy bacteria. So we have these healthy bacteria that throughout our digestive tract. But we really mostly are thinking about the healthy bacteria hanging out in our large intestine. And the reason we think about them is they do a lot of good jobs for us. They not only keep the intestines healthy, but they also make vitamins that we can then absorb into our body and use, like vitamin K. So we really want these healthy bacteria to be in balance. You know, talking about trillions of cells in our body, we also have trillions of bacteria in our gut. We are learning more and more about how those bacteria communicate with our nervous system, with our immune system, with our hormones, with our brain. So there's a constant communication. They're not in their own world. They're really part of the communication of our bodies. So if those gut bacteria get out of balance, we want sort of like this optimal ecosystem of bacteria hanging out in there. And if they get thrown off, that will also increase oxidative stress in the body and lead to some of these same symptoms that we were talking about. So really, knowing your gut bacteria is important, and it's possible. You know, in years past.

We had to be very general about our gut bacteria. You know, we were just like, oh, just take a probiotic, because that has a good bacteria. But now we have ways to test for those gut bacteria and to really know them. Who's living in there? How imbalanced are there? Is there any bacteria that's growing too much, that is creating more oxidative stress or more toxins and more stress for your body? So I really encourage you to know your gut bacteria. There's ways to test for them. There's ways you can even do, you know, order tests online, you know, yourself. There's one called biome, and there's one called ubiome, which are both just customer access tests for the gut bacteria. And then there's also some that you can get through a naturopathic doctor to get that type of information as well. And the things they can throw off your.

Gut bacteria. Oh, the picture's not good. Maybe it's my Internet signal. Let's see. I see you, Myrna. Thank you for being here and for commenting. Oh, now she says it's okay. All right, good. Well, please tell me, because my. It did look like my Internet was a little bit funky here, so I'm hoping that signals coming through okay for you all.

So the things that can throw off your gut bacteria, of course, antibiotics, which there's so much exposure to antibiotics because of infections. And, you know, a lot of times, you know, they were used for a purpose. But, you know, sometimes we just end up in a situation where we've had to take antibiotics. And we know that they were used to kill certain bacteria that were causing an infection, but at the same time, they probably affected the bacteria in your gut as well. We also know that simply just stress, you know, these various stresses I'm mentioning can affect the health, you know, the balance of the gut bacteria. So can certain foods. Gluten, for example. There's studies that show that eating. Eating gluten can disrupt the balance of healthy bacteria, and so does sugar. You know, eating different sugars. Because really, if you think about it, the foods we eat is also not just a food for us, but it's a food for the bacteria in our intestines. So, really, depending on what you eat greatly influences who's growing in there. And so what we attempt to do is we attempt to choose the foods that really feed the bacteria that we want and not the bacteria that we don't want. So the simple way to think about that would be to think of, you know, fruits and vegetables and nuts. So, luckily, this is pretty awesome about nature and food, is that the foods that are generally high in antioxidants and high in nutrients that are good for us tend to also be the foods that are good at feeding our good bacteria. So it's not like they're, you know, opposite to each other in general. You can. You can do both things at once. You can be improving your health and the health of your good bacteria by choosing just, I would say, whole foods is one of the first steps. You know, just saying, hey, how can I. When I go to the store, how can I choose? You know, can I choose a couple new vegetables or. One of my favorite fruits is berries. I love to get frozen berries, like frozen blueberries or blackberries. Actually, when you freeze a berry, it actually increases its antioxidant capacity. So you don't. In the winter, you can still be having berries. Just get frozen organic berries and have them once or twice a day. And berries are great for antioxidants, but they're also great at feeding your good bacteria.

Same with nuts and seeds. So, of course, you know, if you're allergic to nuts or, you know, you react to certain nuts or seeds, then you're gonna need to, you know, modify this for yourself. But in general, nuts like, say, almonds, walnuts, cashews, and seeds like flaxseeds, pumpkin seeds, they have the nutrients for us, the protein, the carbohydrate, the healthy fats as well as antioxidants in them. Like, we think of pumpkin seeds having zinc, for example, and Brazil nuts have selenium. Right? So you can. And it doesn't even take very much of these things. You could be having, like, you know, a handful of pumpkin seeds or one or two brazil nuts and get quite a lot of these antioxidant nutrients. Not like you have to be eating cups full of them, right? You can have a little bit. And at the same time, those nuts and seeds are feeding your good bacteria. So I know sometimes it can feel like it's overwhelming how to choose the right foods, but it's really awesome. I think when we can find certain foods that I call it multitasking. Right. Like, that's a good way for our foods to multitask for us because they can help us and help our good bacteria at the same time. By doing that, we're again, we're decreasing the oxidative stress in our gut and in our whole body, which helps our mitochondria work better and prevents all kinds of health issues that are associated with having oxidative stress. I wanted to say hi. Thank you, Janice, for being here and. Yeah, thank you, Myrna. I'm so glad you guys are here. Thank you. If you guys have questions, please, please write them in for me.

So let's see, I was going to talk more about how do we. How does this relate to mthfr? Because MTHFR is one of the genes that a lot of people know that they have and that I like to help people with. And then I'm going to talk a little bit more about how can we reverse oxidative stress. So mthfr, which I tend to say it quick because I say it so much every day, but you can. I can say it slower. It's mthfr. And of course, people think of what that sounds like it should mean, but really what it stands for is a gene and an enzyme in our bodies. And as fancy as it sounds, it has a pretty simple job. Its job is just to turn folic acid into folate. And you've probably heard of folic acid and folate as A is one of our B vitamins, right? So there's B1, B2, B3, B5, folate is B9, but we tend to not call it B9. We tend to call it folate. Anyway, so it has this simple job. Mthfr, turning folic acid into folate. And if you look at labels of, like, vitamins and even calculus, packaged foods, you're gonna See folic acid a lot of times listed on there. So the deal with the gene is that there's a lot of us, you know, something around 50% of us are not. Our bodies are just not very good at using folic acid. And so it's much better for us if we use actual folate. And folate we can get from food as well. And for example, you can get it from leafy greens like kale and spinach, especially when it's raw. But folate you can also get in vitamins and in certain foods. But you want to make sure that it says folate, or it would also sometimes be called methylfolate or 5mthf, which is all the same thing. All of those mean that. That it's an active form of folate. And I just think of it as a detour. It has now detoured around the mthfr. You didn't need the MTHFR to turn folic acid into folate. It's already folate. And so it just simplifies it for our bodies in the active form. So your body can use those B vitamins. You know, a lot of times we have a sense that our B vitamins are important, right? It's like the. There's a reason why people are always talking about a B complex and why B vitamins are in the multivitamin and why we try to choose foods that have B vitamins in them. And that's because the B vitamins do a lot of jobs in our metabolism, in our biochemistry, in this process of turning our food into energy, the B vitamins are right there doing it. So if we don't have enough of them, then they can't, you know, they can't do that job very well. And if we have certain genes that slow down that process even more, then what can happen is, again, if you start feeling it in the way, you know, the way you feel each day, whether it affects. It could affect mood, like increasing anxiety or depression. It could affect your energy levels, it could affect your sleep, it could affect your memory, you know, these key things. And really also it could affect your likelihood of getting other health issues down the line, like even cancer and heart disease and diabetes and dementia. So it's really important. And it all comes back to our nutrients and our food. This is why I, as you can see, it's just so interesting to me, and it has been since a young age. I don't know why, but I've just always been so interested in how the nutrients from our food comes into our body and creates our body, and that's how our body functions. And so just really coming back to that and really realizing that each food, each bite of food that we choose can have a big influence into how we feel and how our body functions. So it's the same with MTHFR. The difference is when, say, you know you have MTHFR, usually we talk about either the 1298 or the 677 SNP.

And I have one of each, by the way. So this is something that's real for me. It means that the foods I choose are even more important because this genetic SNP is creating sort of a traffic jam in my metabolism. And so knowing that that traffic jam is there, it's even more important that I put in the best fuel to be able to get around the traffic jams and for my body to be able to perform optimally. And so what happens with oxidative stress is that it's creating another traffic jam on top of any genetic predispositions. Now this oxidative stress is another roadblock. And so you could be taking all this wonderful methyl folate, and yet there's this oxidative stress that's getting in the way. And now you can't even. Your body's not even really benefiting from all these healthy B vitamins you're taking because the oxidative stress is just preventing it from moving forward. So that's why when you find out if you have an MTHFR snp, for example, then yes, it's important to make sure you cleared out all the folic acid out of your life. But you also want to clear work on clearing out the oxidative stress. Because what I find is when I can help patients, for example, to improve their gut health and get their antioxidants back up to where they should be, all of a sudden the methylation starts working better. Even if we haven't added in any B vitamins yet, it just starts working more smoothly because now we've cleared out that oxidative stress traffic jam and the traffic starts moving better. So that's why it's so important to, you know, to address oxidative stress when you have MTHFR snp.

See, Janice is asking me, do you recommend methylated bees in addition to your good diet? Yes, I have. So she's saying she has a 1298 MTHFR and she has some of these, these things we were talking about fibromyalgia Hashimoto's, which is an autoimmune condition where the Immune system is confused and trying to protect you from your own thyroid gland and leaky gut, which. Talking about here with the. With the gut health, what happens when those gut bacteria get out of balance and when we're stressed is our gut gets leaky. You know, that's a. That's not such a sciency term. The sciency version of that would be intestinal permeability. And it's that the intestinal cells lining the gut are permeable. They're allowing stuff that's inside your gut to leak through the walls of the intestines. That also creates inflammation and oxidative stress. So we want our intestinal cells to be nice and healthy. So still in field pain every day. Oh, my goodness. I'm so sorry, Janice. I know it's tough sometimes when you're just like, what is going on in my body here that I feel so yucky all the time? And I'm so glad that you're here and learning. Like I said, I think the more you learn, the more you can go, okay, what can I do to reverse this? Because I really believe and I find that it is possible to reverse oxidative stress, and it is possible to feel better. And it does take, you know, concerted effort and advocating for yourself and learning and being here. So good for you. And I really want to acknowledge you all for doing that for yourself, because I really do think it's going to pay off for you. So what happens with the. Like, your question is, do you take the methylated bees in addition to making these diet changes that we're talking about? And my answer to that would be, it really depends on your body. It's so individualized. So what I would be thinking, the question I would be asking is really, how much methylated bees do you need? So it's not so much a question of should you take them or do you take them? It's how much do you need? And the way you would know that is by testing something called homocysteine in your blood work. So if you either, if you, you know, headed in to get blood work done, or you can also, there's ways where you can order homocysteine blood work for yourself. You, by knowing your homocysteine, then you can get a sense of, do you need more of the methylated Bs, which, when we're saying methylated Bs, we're talking about methylated folate as well as methylated B12. Because methylfolate and methyl B12, they come together with the homocysteine to make the, what we call methionine or sam. And that's what goes out and does all the good stuff in our bodies is this methionine and sam. So we want to know, do how much of the methylfolate and how much of the methyl B12 do we need to use with our homocysteine? And it can vary even from sometimes day to day, but it could even vary month to month depending on your stress level and your oxidative stress level and your gut health. Right. So there's all these variables that come into play in terms of how many, how much of these methylated bees do you need at this point in time? And so I don't find that I, you know, recommend a certain dose for everyone. For one person, for example, they Might only need 200 micrograms of methylfolate, and another person might need 10,000 micrograms of methyluLolate. And it really depends on your body and your current health to know that. So you could, I mean, you could start off low and start adding in some of these methylated B vitamins, really noticing how you feel. And if at any point in time you feel worse, then you're going to want to stop and step back and reevaluate and go, hey, where's the roadblocks? You know, what is it that if you feel worse, that's your body telling you there must be a roadblock somewhere? And oxidative stress is a really common one. So then you might need to work with a practitioner who can help you evaluate where is this oxidative stress coming from? Is it from my environment, toxins in my environment? Is it from. Is it certain foods I'm eating that's raising oxidative stress? Is it something going on in my digestion? And so we start there, you know, start with, how do I shift this oxidative stress you can even measure, and I talk about this in the blog post, ways that you can test before your oxidative stress levels. So I mentioned how you can test for the gut bacteria, but you can also, there's some tests, like you could test your glutathione levels.

While you could ask, you know, to have this done in regular blood work, there are also specialty labs where they can run your glutathione levels.

Even one, the more you can tell your oxidized, you know, glutathione can be active and ready to go, or it itself can be oxidized. You know, once it's been fighting the battle for you, it becomes oxidized. And we count on our body to recycle that glutathione from oxidized to reduced and ready to go fight oxidative stress again. So there's even some amazing labs where they can tell you exactly what's happening with your glutathione. And so then you can start to reverse these patterns. Or there's also a test called organic acids, which is a urine panel that can show us your glutathione levels as well as your current B vitamin levels. So these things can help us get a sense of what do you need to do to really get your methylation working better and to reduce your oxidative stress in your body. There's another urine test called, and here's a term for you, this is kind of a mouthful, is 8G and the 8oHDG. Again, it's a urine test. I haven't seen it done by just regular labs. It's usually going to be from a specialty lab. But they can do this test in your urine. And this gives us a real sense of the oxidative stress levels in your body. So if we see that it's elevated, which I've seen, by the way, in a few cases where we were working on fertility, like where, you know, women are trying to successfully conceive a pregnancy and prevent a miscarriage, we also look at oxidative stress in that case because we know that when there's higher amounts of oxidative stress, it's just harder to get pregnant and stay pregnant. It's harder for the to have as good of egg quality. So we can look at an 8.0hdg, we can look at glutathione levels. And this way we can know, hey, what do we need to do to improve these? We can also, there's tests where you can measure the other antioxidants, like say your vitamin C, your zinc, your selenium. So to me, it's like when these tests exist and if you're in a situation where you're really not feeling well, you know, you know that your thyroid is not optimal, maybe you have autoimmun where your immune system is trying to protect you from yourself and, you know, you're feeling this pain every day, then I would say better to get some tests run and you can, you know, work with an Asian valley doctor to do that, to help you get that information so that you really know based on your body and your genetics, what are the steps that you need to be taking to shift that pattern. And these are not the Things that you're probably going to hear in the regular doctor's office, these are. And they. Some of these tests are, you know, paid out of pocket. They're sometimes not covered by insurance. So you really have to kind of know, hey, I know what the regular medical system is offering me. And I also know that there are some other choices and information out there. Then you may want to invest in getting that for yourself so that you can get these important choices for your health, because it is. It's your health and it's. And it's for you to choose. And advocating for yourself sometimes is tough, especially when you don't feel good. You know, we always wish. I always wish that when we're more stressed that somehow our body would give us a break, you know, and make it easier. But it's often not the case. You know, when our bodies are overwhelmed is when we don't feel good. And by listening to those symptoms and realizing, okay, this is. This is when I really need to make some choices. And it can be. You can start with simple things like just looking at your diet and going, okay, how can I decrease my sugar intake? How can I watch out and avoid those trans fats or fried foods in general?

I, for one, I mean, I love potato chips, right? There's something about potato chips. They're just crunchy and yummy. But really, when you think about it, even like an organic potato chip had to be fried in oil. And when we fry oils, they become oxidized, then we eat them, and now we're basically adding oxidative stress to our bodies. So when we can cook in a way where, say we cook with, you know, water steaming our vegetables, or, you know, cook in a way where our food isn't getting oxidized, then already you're decreasing your oxidative stress. And it's amazing how making some of these steps with your diet can really add up to really big change over time. I mean, it can seem like, is it really going to make that much of a difference this one cookie or this one potato chip? But what can happen is it really does add up. So I'm hoping that just talking it through with you will help encourage you. And of course, none of this is. I mean, it doesn't help to be hard on yourself about choices you've made. I don't want to add to your stress. Right. It doesn't make sense to stress about stress. Oh, good. I'm glad to make some of you laugh. It doesn't help to stress about your stress or to Be hard on yourself about something you just ate. The whole idea is to be informed and inspired to just make different decisions each day, day, each time. You, you know, each minute that goes by, you know that now you can go kind of say to yourself, hey, what, what choice can I make here when I'm at the store buying food this week? What choices can I make that are going to be more supportive of my health and less of a, you know, negative for my health? How do I need to, you know, and you might just pick one thing this week. You know, can't do everything at once. You know, it's just overwhelming. So you might just pick for yourself. Hey, this week I'm going to start watching for folic acid on packages. And I'm going to make sure if I see it, I'm not buying that or I'm giving it, throwing it away. I want to start with only things that don't have folic acid. Or maybe for you, it's watching for sugar. Because you'll find when you look at packages, they sneak sugar in left and right. And you can just be like, you can be amazed going through the store and figuring out, oh, my gosh, I can't have this or this or this. And there are options, usually that don't have sugar. So you just have to kind of go in with the mindset of, okay, I'm going to just only get things that don't have sugar this time at the store. Or maybe you try something new, a new vegetable, a new product, or a new recipe that's going to be supporting your health and moving you away from oxidative stress and moving you toward better gut health. So I'm really hoping this inspires you to maybe identify some little steps, even little baby steps you can take even during the holidays, right? Because the holidays is a tough time. There's different events and parties and foods that probably are not fitting with this plan. So you do your best and maybe you bring a dish that you know is gonna be good for you and good for others. And you, you probably inspire other people, too, to make different choices for themselves, because it does add up. And that positive change can make a difference over time. So, anyway, I'm so glad that you guys were here to listen in. It's fun for me to get to do this with you. And please check out the blog post. I have some other information there for you in terms of other things you can do to motivate you. There's some information about my stress remedy program, which is either a 7 day or 21 day your choice program that supports you to make dietary changes. It also it integrates actually what I call CARE activities. Care is C, A R E Z stands for clean eating that we've been talking about tonight. A is adequate sleep because we know that our bodies clear out the oxidative stress while we're sleeping. Exercise or you know, starting with movement, wherever that is for you. And then oh R is actually for reducing stress and E is for exercise. So the stress remedy programs help you to implement that. And it also in the blog post mentions a course that I do or a class and then a course. The class is a class where we talk a lot more about genetics. So if you today you really got curious about the genetics and the MTHFR and you want to learn more, then you can go. You know you could think about signing up for the A one time class or I'm also working on developing a longer course so I can really help you guys more to implement all this information for yourself. So anyway, happy holidays to everyone. I'm glad you're here and I'll watch for your comments because I know some of you will listen to this later and I'll reply to your comments as you put them. So again, thank you and I'll see you soon.