Mindset Matters When Healing Cancer (and more) with Dr. Paul Anderson | How Humans Heal Podcast

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Educational and not intended to diagnose or treat medical conditions. Dr. Donni Wilson struggled for decades to solve her numerous health issues and heal her body. But with focused determination, she healed herself. And in doing so, she discovered the Dr. Donnie stress recovery Protocol. On this show, you're going to hear from doctors, nutritionists, and Experts along with Dr. Donnie, who will give practical advice and wisdom to help heal your body. This is how humans heal.

Welcome. I'm very excited to introduce you to my friend and colleague, Dr. Paul Anderson. He's a naturopathic doctor and clinician, educator and author, and his most recent book is called the Journey From Diagnosis to Empowerment. Thank you so much for being with me today, Paul.

Thank you so much for having me. It's great.

It's so much fun. I mean, I always like to mention that you and I went to the same high school. Not the same time period or not the same year, but we graduated from the same high school.

I was so amused when I found that out. Yeah. Just a number of years apart at the same high school. Yeah. That was wild.

That's amazing. And this is a high school in Oregon, and Paul is, I think, now located in Washington state.

I am, yeah.

And you've been practicing as a naturopathic doctor for is almost 30 years or more than 30 years?

Almost, yeah. Yeah. I haven't. I haven't quite got to the anniversary.

Yet, but close, just about. And not only that, but you've trained, I think, probably more naturopathic doctors than anyone else I can think of. You know, just, you're more than just helping patients. You are really helping other naturopathic doctors to provide the information that you've discovered and learned and supported people with along the way. So I really want to acknowledge you for that because you're just such a giving person. I see it with you giving in the profession to your patients and to your family. So I really want to let people know that's part of Paul. It's just such a giving nature. And what brought you to do what you do.

Well, so that's a really long answer, but the short answer is what got me to naturopathic medicine originally was I was working on the allopathic side of medicine, which my family is involved in. And my children, I have five children, they're all adults, but my older two, who are.

Gosh, they're in their 30s somewhere. They're. They're old people now with the older two, when they were little, they were having a lot of trouble with what turned out to be a lot of allergies and ear problems, you know, the normal kid stuff. And we kept going, you know, to the pediatrician and kept having stuff happened. And my mother, who's a nurse, said, you know, I know this naturopathic doctor. You should probably, you know, take the kids there and see if he can help them. And I thought, oh, boy, you know, whatever. And so. So then, you know, then one of the kids got sick again, and she says, no, you really ought to go talk to this guy. And I was just so impressed with his breadth of knowledge and. And ultimately how he helped the kids and how he practiced. And I thought, you know, I could actually do this. And that was a long, long time ago now.

And then that just sort of led to. I had been a teacher before. I'd done a lot of professional education before for people, especially lab people and stuff. So I always taught because it's something I just have to do. I really like it. I like teaching and writing. And so as time went on, my teaching sort of shifted, especially in the last, like, 15 years, to.

How do I help people in, you know, our profession, but also in integrative medicine, other professionals, how do I help them not make the same mistakes I did, you know, because there's no point in us repeating our mistakes or other people repeating. So that's really been where most of my work has gone. That and.

Writing. I've always done a lot of writing for professionals, but I'm writing more for patients now. Same reason. Just to have information out there for patients. So that's the Cliff Note version of my story. It's a little more twisty than that, but that's it.

That's. No, thank you for sharing that, because I think that a lot of people will be inspired, inspired by you and what you do.

And I know that, you know, you give again. You give so much in many ways. And I think that, you know, my impression is that, say in this, your recent book, this Journey from Diagnosis to Empowerment, was that inspired by your patients? What inspired that book?

Yeah, you know, like everything in life, it's.

When you live something or live through something or live with something, it's. It's a lot more personal and it's, you know, it becomes something you either want to do something about one on one, say, doctor to patient, or in this case, a little broader, you know, my experience to other people. So what happened really, though, is the previous book that Dr. Mark Stengler and I wrote together called Outside the Box Cancer Therapies was focused on, as the name implies, integrative cancer therapies, because that's what we both did a lot of. And.

That book's been. It's in, I think, five languages now around the world. And.

It'S been very well accepted, even, you know, even in maybe places it wouldn't have normally, because we had a real high research bias to it. But when we got done with that book.

I had a clinic here in Seattle. We treated about 75% cancer patients. The rest were chronic illness people. And I was really mentoring the doctors who worked at the clinic more than directly treating the patients because I was doing so much other stuff. And the thing after the first book came out that I really noticed was we didn't have space in that book to talk so much about the mind, body connection and the internal part of what goes on when either you yourself get diagnosed with cancer or a loved one does, because it's very traumatic for both people. And the bottom line is the. It's not easy. There's no easy part about the journey. But the better that you can do with it, and the more you embrace empowerment within it as a patient, the better your outcomes are. Your. Your quality of life improves, your family relationships improve, your. Even, I think, the response to treatment improves. So I saw this as a place where.

Beyond whatever you're doing about your cancer, you know, whether it's just you're going to pick the standard route to go with your cancer because that makes the most sense, or you're going to do some integrative stuff or whatever you're going to do. That part doesn't matter. It's what happens when I get this news that I don't want, that my loved one has cancer, I have cancer. And how do I get beyond that to being empowered and in charge of the situation and not a victim? That's really what triggered the book. The book.

It's hard to write on one level where there's a lot of editors involved, a lot of people helping me get the message smooth, right. But the content was not hard to write because I'd lived it for so long, and I'd really seen. I've seen people kind of navigate that pathway really in a positive manner and really positively affect their own outcomes. And. And I've seen people, you know, kind of get stuck with the. The tragedy of the diagnosis and being upset about it and not really navigate it, and their quality of life and even their length of life decreases. So that's. That's why the book came about. And the Other thing is the people who like read the first book, it was longer, it had like over a thousand references. It's a big, big book. This one is really an easy read. There's not a whole bunch of references. There's some. But it's made so any person with cancer, anybody with a loved one with cancer can read it quickly. There's a lot of resources because we all get stuck in different places and it's a very user friendly read.

Do you recommend it then like if say someone first finds out they're diagnosed.

That'S when they should start reading this.

Book, you know, probably.

Earlier is better.

In my thinking about it and going through it with people a lot of times we don't have the luxury of, you know, timing. You know, it might be, you might be a year end of the process. And I think there's benefits both ways. So let's say you're a person who you or your loved one just got diagnosed with cancer. It's a good read right then because it kind of just gets your. Wraps your head around what's going to happen to me on the inside as a process this. But also I've had people where they've been kind of working at dealing with their cancer for a year or two and they actually got different things out of the book because they've already sort of been down the road aways and they've seen some of the, you know, places people get tripped up and, and they, you know, they see it for a little bit different than maybe someone new. So it's again, it's kind of written for, to meet you wherever you're at.

Yeah, well, I definitely see like that it's such, it's filling such an important need for people because cancer is an example. But I see this happen with a lot of different illnesses and chronic illnesses in particular, where the illness itself becomes a stress. You know, usually it's our prior stresses in life and toxin exposures and so on that create the illness. But then once we don't feel well or we're dealing with the medical system and medical process, that becomes another stress. And when I think about it, I think of it like, well, any way that we can solve for that, any way that we can support ourselves through a stressful process, it's going to help us in the end. And that's what you're suggesting. And I, and I know I've seen that in the research. Do you have any, I'm thinking, is there any research that comes to mind for you that shows you Know that when we support ourselves through a process that it's going to work out better on the other end.

Yeah, that's specifically. That's the only research I actually included in the book.

Because it's, you know, you have a fair amount of credibility if you've lived something for 30 years or so doing something. But I have a section called what does modern research say about empowerment as a patient or empowerment with cancer? And right up to the time, you know, where I had to stop writing, which was just. Yeah, which, which wasn't long ago, there were, there were new studies being published about empowerment, especially around cancer patients. And it. Because that wasn't a focus of the previous book, I was even a little bit surprised at how specific the studies were. And they were looking at either family members or patients with cancer. And they would look at very specific things that anyone with cancer, you know, knows can be an issue, such as their general outcomes, their quality of life outcomes. But other. Also things like pain. Pain management.

Yeah.

And other, you know, things we think of, well, okay, I'm, I'm empowered so I'll feel better about myself. But you know, that's not going to affect my pain or that's not going to affect my, you know, whatever physical thing. Well, it turns out it does, you know, so what I did in that section, which like I said, is the only real research oriented section is I shared, you know, the most recent things that had looked at these kind of broad areas and just, you know, quoted from them so that people could see there's actually research that goes on around this and they make a distinction which I thought was really cool because it, thankfully, it's the same distinction I was making in the book, which is.

Your, you know, empowerment is really your ability to feel autonomy and self determined and all of that. It doesn't change the fact that you don't like your diagnosis. You know, autonomy and empowerment is not being a Pollyanna or ignoring the fact that you have something going on with your body. It's saying, if I'm going to be dealing with this, I'm going to do it the best way I can. I'm going to be the person in charge of this and I'm not a victim of it. I am, you know, I am, you know, literally the master of my fate and I am going to wake up every day and decide that I wouldn't choose this. But since it's here, you know, I'm going to move forward. And that in all of the research that I read about it, especially like in the last five years, where there's been a lot of research that was just remarkable how much difference that made with both mental, emotional, but also physical parameters around cancer.

It's so amazing and cool, and I think it points out exactly what probably a lot of people are wondering and thinking, like, how can I. Because we can feel like we're in the struggle and like you said, it feel a victim to many health conditions, including cancer. And it's like, how do I get out from under this? And when we can, it's almost like a mental expansiveness to be able to find the space in our psychological experience, to be able to make space for this and say, hey, I can stand back and be somewhat of an observer and see this in a way where, like you said, it's not something I would have chosen, but it's here. So let me look at it in a way that I can move forward versus being overcome by it. And that's so awesome. I love that, you know, to hear that there's studies on that too, and that, that and that that's what you're writing about to help people with. With cancer. It reminds me, actually, as a. In my training as a midwife, what I studied was women in labor and how. What. What. How that fear and stress would affect them. And to see that, you know, with. As labor as a process, you know, it's something where a lot of women, I think, are like, okay, I want a baby, so I guess I have to go through that painful part, you know, so. But at the same time, we, you know, we'd rather not be in pain. But the thing that's interesting that they. When they study labor, is that we need a certain amount of stress hormones, cortisol and adrenaline to get through it. And if we don't have enough stress hormones, labor doesn't progress. But if we have too much stress hormones, labor doesn't progress either. And this is where the role of, like a doula comes in. A labor support person who can say, hey, here's what's involved. Here's all the decisions. Here's a way to think about it. Here's tools and techniques to support you so you can get through the labor process more efficiently, more, you know.

With fewer negative outcomes, with more positive experience by having that labor support. And so it sounds like, to me, I hear it as what you're proposing is like a doula for cancer care, like, how to doula yourself and support yourself through cancer care so that it doesn't have to go into that, you know, the overly stressed realm, where it's working against you. You know, you want to be right in the, in the pocket, so to speak, where you're engaged in this treatment process, but you're doing it in a way where you're supported so that you can get through it with the most positive outcome possible.

Yeah, that's exactly it. And it's like you say our stress response is, you talk about with people all the time. I'm sure the stress response is there for a good reason.

It's just that it's supposed to sort of have an up and a down and a balance in the middle somewhere, even during very stressful physical times.

One of the things that I've seen over and over with chronically ill people or people with cancer, et cetera, is the stress response can either be blunted and muted, in which case then you don't really get a great immune response, you don't get a lot of other things, or it can go too far. Especially if mentally and emotionally you can't settle and work towards kind of an empowered state. The stress response will take over because you feel out of control and you feel like a victim and your stress response just spins out of control. And just like with labor and delivery, if it's too high, things don't progress well, they don't end well. If your stress response doesn't have this sort of sine wave up and down and it's just spinning out of control because you feel like a victim and you're angry or you're sad or whatever, your response to your treatments, your body's immune response, it just goes off the rails. So, you know, it's, it is literally that important. And that starts, you know, honestly, from within. For the most part. Yeah.

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What are some of the tools that you might offer in the book or offer your patients when they're, you know, when they're in that, you know, where they feel like they're spinning with the stress and how to kind of find their way back?

Yeah, it's. That's a lot of. I would say 80% of the book is really just a pathway for that because. And it literally was built from deconstructing lots and lots and lots of patients back to where do they start and how do we feel there, and what would be a good next step versus not a good next step and moving on. And so the first thing, though, that.

Really struck me as I was writing was I wanted to make sure that people understood that it's not abnormal to feel surprised or angry or upset or, you know, any number of emotions when you or a loved one gets a cancer diagnosis. Those are normal things. So the book and my counsel, the patient is not saying, well, you shouldn't feel that way, saying, you know, that's. That's totally normal. And we all get a different thing, you know, if we get a shocking diagnosis, some people get angry right away, Some people become afraid, Some people get really depressed. Some people, you know, kind of fall back and, you know, and have a lot of denial and things. So it's not. Those are the human condition. So pretty much every chapter, I. I start the. There's a little what to do next box at the end of the chapter. And I usually start saying, hey, it's okay to feel this way. This is normal. And. But here's some steps you can take to move to the next level, or here's some steps you can take to deal with it. And then the what, you know, as far as what to do depends a little bit on what, you know, which area you're at, because that's other thing. We all have our own strengths and weaknesses. So some people are great at the beginning. You know, they. They realize, look, okay, I'm in shock. I was a little angry about this or whatever, but I know I gotta. I gotta move forward. Their trouble is, then what do I do next? You know, other people, they don't realize that they need to move forward. So you need a little more help there. So what I really do is put in the roadmap and then a lot of resources for people, because we all have a different, you know, we all have strengths and we all have places we get stuck. The other thing is there's a lot throughout.

Because it really is for loved ones and supporters as well as cancer patients. There's a lot making the point that the people around you are part of you, either healing or not healing. And so in the other thing about people around us is they don't want us to have cancer either. You know, they, they, they're just as upset as we are, just probably in a different way. So the point with the book was, well, if we, if we can all process in our own way and be moving towards a healthier, you know, more self determined place, then I can be a better supporter for you. You can, you know, be in a better place with as the patient, etc. And I think that that becomes a really, that became a really important part of what I wanted to bring out was it's not just about, you know, me, the patient. It's, you know me, the patient. But I'm surrounded by people who are part of my world and they care about you and they, but they meet, you know, people aren't born knowing how to deal with something like this. So that's, that's big part of it. And then the other thing I did, which was I had this idea. But you know, when you write books, your editors sometimes say that's a great idea or not a great idea. But I had this idea because the book has a lot of it's, it's very down to brass tacks. Kind of here's where you go next, here's how you deal with maybe family that don't want, you know, don't want to play ball or whatever. But I wanted to tell stories and so I picked two patients, they're real life patients who kind of went two different directions with empowerment.

I love it.

And throughout the book I talk now, obviously they're de identified and I changed their details, but the emotional part was the same. So each chapter kind of has this story of these real people and how did they handle this part of either dealing with their diagnosis or dealing with family or dealing with.

The shock or the anger or whatever. And thankfully the editors said that was actually a good idea because it brought some humanity to sort of a technical, you know, type of a book. So for people who are, you know, more emotionally relatable, they can read the story and kind of pick up the same, the same tips as the people who like the bulleted points and all that stuff.

And it's, that's the thing is, I mean that's so useful, I think, for people to hear specific stories. I was going to ask you if you, if there was a story you could share, but I was also thinking that.

You know, it's the thing about when something happens in life, you know, like say it's a cancer diagnosis or whatever happens any day. Of course it's, it's being in the world that we're in is going to trigger any emotional growth. That's the way I think of it is that's the growth that we're ready for or meant for. And so to kind of start to realize, even if say as a, as the caretaker or as the other person in the life of someone with cancer or even the person with cancer, to find that. I like how the words you're using about that kind of self determined and kind of finding the place where you can realize, hey, this isn't just something that happened to me. This is my life. And this is my chance to know myself better and be present with my emotions and learn how to get to. Through a stressful, challenging time, you know, and to see that. See as what happens to us as the, as living life as the, as the thing we're doing here. And it sounds to me like what you're guiding is a lot just guiding people to be present with the process and present with whatever comes up for them. Because of course, like, you know, we, of course, whatever comes up is what was meant to come up.

Right? Right. Yeah. And that's, you know, that's why.

I tried to kind of lay the steps out in a way where they were, they were fluid and open in that manner because like you say, not everybody, you know, needs to learn lesson A and B, because lesson C is where we're at, you know, or, um, or some people, it's like they, they already did lesson C. But A is, you know, something that they never really had a chance to, you know, dig into. So one of the pieces of advice that I give in the book is, you know, read it quick first, just kind of see what resonates with you and then go deep in the areas you feel stuck at and you can always, you know, recycle later or whatever. And it is true, you know, it's. And I think one of the difficulties in talking about it is it's whether you're giving, say the advice or some counselor guidance and you don't have cancer or you're the cancer patient, there can be this misconception that, well, nobody wants this diagnosis, this is a bad thing. And so you Know, telling me how to deal with a bad thing is not an appropriate thing to do. And in reality, the best medicine that you can provide somebody is actually helping them deal with something that's very unpleasant and very unwanted and all of that, because whether it's, you know, the chronically ill people that you and I deal with, that they don't have cancer, but they have something that might not go away or might not get totally better, or whether it's cancer, if you don't do these things and deal with it, you're really. You're not helping yourself at all. So it's. That's really the focus is trying to laser in on where do you need the most support and what's going to help.

Well, and I think that's such an important point that so much of the time people don't know what. What do you say to someone who has cancer? You know, do you say, sorry, do you say, how can I support you? You know, like, so to have a book to guide us to say, here's how. Here's what works for supporting someone with cancer so that you're. The person, knows you're there to help them, and they're not. It's not going to make them feel worse. It's going to actually help them in their process.

Yeah, that was the. So of. As I said, most of the book is pretty much in stages for the patient or the loved one. There's two chapters that are unique. One is a chapter where I interviewed people with cancer or people who were loved ones and supporting someone with cancer through a process. And I asked them all the same questions. And I felt that the very best advice around things like what don't you say to somebody who just was diagnosed? Or if you have a family with a child with cancer, what's the best way to help them and what's the worst way to interact? That advice came best from people who had lived it firsthand. It was wonderful. These were all patients of mine that were more than happy to share this because they said there's not really a playbook for this. You don't know how to talk to your neighbor when they tell you they were diagnosed with cancer. And so they were very open, they gave really good advice. And that was. That was just golden because, you know, I. I could say it from my point of view as somebody who, you know, who is a helper, but when it comes from people who've lived it and they've. They've heard the right things and they've heard the wrong Things said or done, it just is very, you know. So for a lot of folks, especially your people who don't have cancer but want to be supportive, there's a lot of gold in those interviews.

Oh, that's how wonderful that they shared that and offered that. I definitely could see where that would be helpful and really able to shift the way the experience that patients are currently having. I know that from the patients I work with who have gone through cancer treatment process or after cancer treatment. I can relate to what you're saying. Just those memories from what they've shared with me pops in my head. And one of the I find toughest parts is when people finish their cancer treatment because so much of the focus is on the treatment that it almost is like what's after that. And there can be kind of.

A cliff almost where you finish your cancer treatment and then what? And I've seen patients really struggle with after cancer treatment. And so I've now started to talk to them about it during their treatment to help prepare them for after so that there's a continued path. I don't know. Have you found that too, that there's an after your cancer treatment that needs to happen too?

Oh, yeah.

That's one of those things. Of course, if the patient or the loved one is further down the trail and they've been through that, they've experienced it. But a lot of times, if you're early in your diagnosis and treatment, whatever your treatment is, it's all encompassing because it's like there's all these things, you've never done them before. They take a lot of time, they're physically taxing and all that. And so you almost can not deal with a lot of stuff then because you're just overwhelmed with the medical world and process. But you do get this sort of letdown effect then when it, you know, when that maybe takes a break or they're done with it for a while or whatever, or they're going to wait three or six months and do another scan.

And then suddenly it's like, well, now what do I do? And that's often when people start to try and wrap their mind around how do I deal with this, what I try and do. In the book, there's a chapter and it's. Some people get a little confused by the term, but I call it the external cancer journey because the whole book's about the internal mind, body connection. The external journey really is how it's happening to your body, you know, the treatment and all that stuff. And what I explained Is that after looking back at three decades of people with cancer.

There'S really four positions a cancer patient goes through. The first one is primary prevention, where you don't know you have cancer and you're trying to avoid it. Most people are not that interested in mind body stuff around cancer there because it may not happen. But the second one is diagnosis and active treatment. And in that one, your bandwidth for other stuff, even doing mind body stuff, is lower because it's very busy, you don't feel good, etc. The third part, though, is recovery from active treatment, which is actually a really critical part of cancer care, because the better you do recovering, the less likely you have a recurrence. Then the fourth one is secondary prevention, where maybe you're in remission or no evidence of disease, etc. But you're actively working on not having it come back. And in the kind of those third and fourth phases, you have a lot more time to think about how this is affecting, you know, your mind and body, or your mind and body and spirit, or however you want to divide that up, the internal stuff. So my advice normally is, you know, during, if you're, you know, if you're doing. Spending most of your time getting treated for cancer, you're dealing with the diagnosis, but you also don't feel great because of the treatment and all that stuff, you're really doing just baby steps and basic things, just kind of, you know, it's getting through it. But when the fog lifts and they spread out, your treatment or you go into a treatment break, you can be left feeling like it's like all that hits you. And if you're not ready for it, not ready to start processing, that's when people often, you know, do have trouble. So you have to be. It's. Life is about being realistic. And if you're already maxed out and you feel horrible, there's just little things you can do. But once you get into that break time or, you know, waiting to see if you're in remission or whatever, that's when what goes on in your head, really, it's, you know, that's 80% of, of your efforts at that point.

I could see where, where your book would be a real resource there. You know, I mean, all of those phases, I love how you're breaking it down into these phases and, you know, to realize there's different needs at different phases and, and to really, you know, point out that, that, that recovery and remission phases are important times for this mindfulness and empowerment process to happen. You're making me realize I've had cancer in family members. I have my personal experience with being around family members that were going through cancer treatment.

I myself recently went through a process of going through a diagnostic process is, you know, to find out if I had cancer cells. And so I, you know, I can relate on, you know, it's coming to life for me personally. And luckily I was just, you know, mentioning to you that I just received results back that my biopsies were all negative for abnormal cells. And so I'm so grateful. You know, it's, it's. You feel so grateful when you get that result. But it also gave me this opportunity to be in this doctor's office, in the surgeon's office, where patients present themselves when they have an abnormal growth or something going on. And I could really see and know that fear that can happen, that not knowing. And that process takes. Takes a long time. I've been kind of joking that each step takes another week. You know, by the time you schedule with this doctor, it's another week. And then by the time, okay, we're going to schedule you for a biopsy, that'll be next week. And then now we're going to schedule you for. To see the other surgeon. That's going to be the next week. And to everything is like. And then you're going to get your results in another week. So it's takes time. The diagnostic process alone is stressful. And all along you're in this. And I think a lot of it for me was the not knowing how to get comfortable with unknown. Right? Because so much of it is in this whole cancer process is whether you're. Before you're diagnosed. And in my case, I wasn't even diagnosed with cancer, but I went through preliminary process of not knowing until you finally know. And, and what I kind of realized is that really in life, so much of it is we don't know, we just don't realize it all the time. It's not apparent to us all the time that we don't really know if we have cancer. Actually at this moment, because I just had a PET scan is probably one of the only moments in time that I'm pretty sure I don't have cancer.

It's like it makes you realize that sometimes the not knowing, that being in limbo, the waiting is also quite stressful. And I'm sure that's what you talk about at that phase of like the getting diagnosed part. How do you do that journey in a way where you can, you know, be present and empowered and be prepared. Because once you do have a diagnosis, whatever it is, you're going to want to be ready to be in that moment and be prepared to respond and do what you need to do at that moment.

Very definitely. And you're right.

Just the nature of the process is so drawn out sometimes that that actually adds to people's anxiety. And if, as is common with all of us, if you haven't dealt with certain things, things about, you know, your fear of the unknown or your concern about how you're going to handle, you know, either positive or negative result or any of those things, that's when those, because you have nothing else to think about, that's when those things really.

You know, get turned up.

And so, yeah, the process just is inherently punctuated that way. And there's sort of two. I mean, it happens all the time, but there's two real big times where that happens. One is what you described kind of on the front end of do I or don't I have, you know, cancer or what in the world's going on because I don't feel right? Or there's this going on the other than. And I did a podcast recently with a gentleman who's a stage 4 cancer survivor for many years and he tries to help other cancer patients. And the thing that he and I talked about, which is the same dynamics just a little later, is once you get to the point where you might be stable or you're done with treatment, then every time you get a new scan or every time you get your tumor markers or whatever, it's like this giant suspense filled waiting game. And you're, you know, it can really tank people, people mentally and emotionally. You can just drag their spirit down. And what, you know, he and I were talking about, because as a patient, he's been through it way many times and I've been through with patients, is the hardest thing in the world. But probably the most important thing is to put that in perspective. So let's, let's say you're waiting on the front end or you're waiting now to see if you're still in remission. The perspective that you kind of have to wind your way around to. And I was really happy that, you know, most patients who've been through it a lot finally agree with it is nothing that you do that causes you worry or upset or, you know, consternation, which are normal parts of being human. None of that will change the outcome of your skin. None of it will change, you know, your numbers or whatever. And so you have to hold them in, in a realistic place, which is they are what they are. I've done everything I can do to this point and all of the, you know, negative emotions and negative self talk and whatever else I put myself through, none of that's going to make my scan better or worse. And that's probably one of the hardest things because you're literally saying, I don't have control over this.

And when we finally settled on the title, the subtitle being Journey from Diagnosis to Empowerment, you know, empowerment is not about you having control over everything because we can't. We're human. We don't have control over everything. You know, for anyone who thought that.

And even one of the studies I was telling you about that was very recent was they make that distinction that, you know, empowerment in patients where they have these better outcomes is not about them being in control, but it's about them being, you know, self determined and having autonomy and realizing that they may not be in control of the outcome of the test or, you know, maybe how the surgery goes or something like that, but they are in complete control over themselves, how they process, how they deal with whatever happens. And that's what makes the difference, you know, So I think that, you know, yeah, like, the waiting is torture. The waiting on the other end when you think you might be in remission but you don't know, that's very torturous. So one of the things that I try to guide people through in the book is how can I get myself to a bit more centered place? There's no way that you can be waiting on a cancer positive or negative marker diagnosis and not be a little upset by it. That would be unhuman. But you can get to a place where you have more of an empowered view over it. And that's really the, you know, that's the real point.

Wow. Oh, my gosh, Paul, that's. Thank you so much for writing that book and sharing all of your decades of experience with your patients and for being here with me today. I mean that. I think really it is a powerful message for people to hear that, you know, you can, you can. There's some things we, some things that happen in life and stresses that we have no control over. But if there's a way we can recognize our humanness and find a way to be present with that, then that's, that's, you know, huge gift, people. So thank you.

Thank you so much. This has been a lot of fun.

People find the book, Paul.

Yeah, that's probably. That's a wonderful question. You can get it anywhere where you nowadays where we're doing everything online. Any online book outlet, of course Amazon has it but Powell's Books, Barnes and Noble, etc. It's available right now in Kindle version and also as paperback. You know, you can hold it in your handbook. And I'm actually next week going to be recording the audio version. Audio version will be available through the norm actually through any audiobook outlet when it gets put out. So you know, whether it's Apple or Audible or Google or whoever, any, any audiobook that probably will not be until January 2021. But the audiobook is coming. So right now the Kindle or the paper version anywhere where you buy books online. And if you just start writing what I found is cancer and then the journey from diagnosis, usually then it comes up.

If they write in Dr. Paul Anderson, they're going to find that book and much more that you've written.

Yeah, yeah.

The Amazon profile should have the other stuff too. You do have to be careful because there's a lot of Paul Anderson's in the world. So. Okay, so we want the Paul Anderson extremely common names. So there's other really wonderful authors who I'm not so.

Okay, good point. And if anyone wants to be in touch with you otherwise, is there a good place to reach you?

Yeah, right now probably the very best is and there's a.

An info or a help button or whatever the website. Consult DrAnderson.com just consult DrAnderson.com that's the best place. There's a link there to a page called Dr. A Books that has info about other books and stuff. And.

There'S a lot of, I do a lot of health blogs and things on there too.

Awesome. Oh, thank you. I'm sure that people will find that as a great resource. I know I do as a practitioner too. Any practitioners listening? I know you also do constant, you know, regular practitioner trainings and continuing education on. So that's why I say you're, you're such a giver and providing such a service to all of us. Please, both patients and practitioners. So thank you again.

Thank you.

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