Parental Burnout with Shelley Kemmerer PA-C | How Humans Heal Podcast

Hello and welcome. I'm excited to introduce you to Shelly Kammerer today. She's a physician's assistant and she is owner of Parental Wellness Consulting. And she is here to talk today with me about the stresses that parents are under and really how to help take care of yourself even though you might be experiencing burnout and stress as a parent. So thank you so much for joining me, Shelly. I'm so glad you're here.

Yeah, absolutely. Happy to be here.

So tell me more like how did you get to this area of helping people as parents? What inspired you?

So I am a parent of two kids. I have one stepson who is 11 and I have a toddler who's three and a half. And when I was pregnant with my son, I started kind of thinking about some of the questions that were brewing that never really felt answered. I didn't know who I should take those questions, whether it was a pediatrician, an ob. And a lot of those questions kind of pile up. And so when I, right before I was expecting, I knew I was going to have a C section. My son was in a very. He was in a position where it was not going to be easy to give birth to him. And so I had to kind of prepare. What would it be like to have a C section? You know, what post operative healing measures am I going to have to take? How can I prioritize my mental well being and the well being of my child? And so in preparation of that, I started kind of putting things together and saying if I had this, I would feel much more at ease with the transition. And so I had my son and everything that I thought I had prepared in advance kind of went out the window. And so as I started kind of sifting through this new parenting journey, I just started kind of going through and answering some of those questions. And through all of that, I created this business of Parental Wellness Consulting, which is customized resources for new families. And now it's actually branched out into other things as well, which is, as you mentioned, parental burnout, which is a very serious.

A serious diagnosis.

It is. And it's not something that really regular medicine or, you know, the doctor's office really touches on very much. So I think a lot of parents, both moms and dads, end up finding themselves in a position where they feel like they should, you know, all these shoulds happen, right? Like I'm supposed to be able to be a parent and work and take care of my house and take care of my parents and take care of, you know, all the things on our to do list. And it's in, it feels like we're supposed to be superheroes when really we're, we're human beings. And with a lot of expectations happening and it's. I think a lot of people can start to experience this, this kind of burnout without realizing, you know, what's going on. And with a lot of. Then they almost feel worse because they feel like they've failed as a parent. So. Yeah, tell me more what you notice with what parents tell you.

So I think this is kind of multifactorial, right? Occupational burnout has been a diagnosis. Parental burnout. Although we're just kind of shining the light on it over the past several years this has been going on. This isn't a brand new phenomenon, but we're starting to examine it more. And so there are, you know, there's three hallmarks of parental burnout. One is overwhelming, significant exhaustion, you know, emotional distancing from one's child or one's children. And then this lack of joy, lack of fulfillment and, you know, ineffectiveness within a parental role. And when I, you know, in the beginning when I said this is a serious diagnosis, it's not that, you know, we're going out and diagnosing a bunch of people with parental burnout. We have to sift through every situation individually to kind of figure out what exactly is going on based on, you know, what you're experiencing. I think we tend to, at least on social media, what I notice is we tend to throw this term around and although this is, you know, maybe a hot topic right now, it's not a, it's. I don't want to call it a trend because this isn't something that we should be very cavalier about. And so for me, and what I do do is I help parents and caregivers with live in children navigate this transition through parenthood. So we look at your resources, what do you currently have and what do you currently need? And that's how you kind of get to the bottom of burnout, which is too much stress, not enough resources at the base of that.

And that's it that, I mean, that's what I'm often help. Trying to help people understand about stress in general is, you know, we were as humans, we're built to be stressed. We have our built in stress response system. I also cover a lot about adrenal glands. You know, we have our sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system. And then we have the HPA axis that triggers the adrenal glands and the cortisol and adrenaline. And we, we need that just for our day to day activities and everything to function in our bodies. But the issue is like when you're saying when the stress outweighs the stress recovery, that's when issues start to develop. And a lot of times I'm sharing about the health issues that can develop for an individual. But I really love that you're pointing out how that imbalance of stress and stress recovery can then lead to effects in a relationship, like a parental relationship, where maybe you're not then able to show up for your child in the way that you would like. And I do hear that a lot of times from parents, you know, they'll say, I'm just not able to be there for my child the way they need. And sometimes that's the way I think people might realize this is they're like, oh, I really would like to be able to spend more time with my child or I'd like to be in a calmer, happier state when I am. I mean, I'm thinking of. Yeah.

Presence, like true presence.

Yeah, yeah. And I'm thinking my daughter is now 18 years old and, and so I, there's less times where we're, you know, where she actually really needs me. But I remember when she was young and you know, it was, there's definitely times when it's tough where you're, you know, you have, you're trying to help, you know, trying to keep your work going and your home going and at the same time wanting to be able to have that quality time with your child. And I think especially probably this past year when people have been more at home and less in their job position, it might become more apparent to you if you're like, oh, wait a minute, I'm so I have so much other stuff to do. It's really hard for me to be able to just be centered and focused with my child. And, and so I'm just thinking through, just trying to relate how people might be noticing this, you know, showing up for them and how great to be able to have resources. What are some of the, the things.

That you start by encouraging parents to do if, say, if they start to realize, oh yeah, that sounds like me, I can. Even if maybe they have a mild form or more moderate or maybe it's a more severe situation, I'm assuming it could come in degrees of severity.

Sure.

Yeah.

So for me, I am very specific with people. I am not their healthcare provider and I'm not their therapist. So that's two things. Even though I am a trained healthcare professional, I served specifically in the resource realm. So for me, it's really important that they establish a strong therapeutic alliance with their provider because I am not the person. Even though I'm going through very specific training to identify what true parental burnout looks like, I assist them with resources. I aim to simplify and make things very practical within their home so that the therapeutic alliance between their healthcare provider or mental health specialist is strengthened by the complementary work that I do. So for me, it's really important to let people know because this is somewhat of a new. This is a niche specialty. Right. Like, this isn't, you know, somebody that is referring me for, you know, a patient for. To do CBT work. Like, I do not do that. I don't operate in that way. So I kind of look at the home as an ecosystem and I utilize what you have currently going on within the home. Let's say you're busy, you have two working parents, you're trying to figure out the division of the invisible labor or whatever it is. And I work with that to offload for the parents.

And so for me, that could be anything from, you know, action planning through a household, what that looks like. So if you have a busy household and you're, you know, your children are starting to get back into sports or whatever the case may be, I'm almost like their household wedding planner in a sense. So it's. It's important for me, I think, in this specialty to really know the. The idiosyncrasies of burnout, to understand how something can truly benefit a person without overwhelming them with more resources. Because.

Yeah, that's true. That you could even be stressed by trying to help yourself with stress. Yes.

Yeah. And that occurs a lot. I mean, you know, I keep coming back to social media because I find this with, you know, a lot of other platforms have been discussing this with me is that there is a. There's millions of hashtags associated with self care. There's. Over the other day, I checked it, there's 46 million.

Wow.

So. So if we're thinking about self care in this way, and we're putting a bunch of, you know, signals and messages and graphics and all this stuff on how to do better self care, how to do this, how to do that, you are being inundated with more and more information. So the goal is to just simplify what do you have and what do you need? And as you were saying with stress before and this whole activation of the sympathetic nervous system and Parasympathetic, your body is actually, you know, it works in a way to work with you. If you dial into it, if you really tune into it, like with the parasympathetic, for instance, 4, 7, 8, breathing, you can tap into that breathing and settle your body in a totally different way than say certain medications, et cetera. And nothing against medication, but that's just saying you utilize what you have. And so I just, I really, I want to stress that enough that if you can simplify and find the things that are truly causing you stress and strain. A lot of the times that's parents feeling overwhelmed by their role because they're not delegating or not maybe having that open communication with a partner, let's say if they are partnered or single parents, what are the resources that they can tap into that maybe they don't know about? It's not their fault. It's just maybe that's not something that's being discussed.

Yeah, and it's such a good point. There's, I think a lot of different ways that a family can look. You know, it can, it can be the sort of like traditional family, but this can also happen. Yeah. With like a single parent or mixed. Different mixed versions of families and, and all different, you know, just to acknowledge that, you know, it can be burnout and overwhelm can happen with different versions of family systems and we have some new versions that are appearing, you know, and to be able to not feel alone, you know, I think that's a lot of your message too is don't feel alone. It's not just you. It's, it's very common to hit this point of overwhelm and we don't have any. It's not something we learn about really in like elementary school or college. You know, like how do you, how do you set up your life so that, you know, you have less overwhelm or more ability to recover from stress. And as you're mentioning, like just being able to help people with their day to day structure and schedule, you know, just to be able to say, hey, what, because I really notice this too with my patients, is that a lot of it comes down to what we do on a daily basis. And sometimes we, you know, we can almost resist having a set structure, but there definitely is some value for our own bodies and our stress systems that we can give our bodies some set signals. Like I'm going to eat at these times of day. I'm going to, this is the time of day where I'm, you know, probably going to exercise or do breathing or.

Meditation and kind of create a, almost.

Like a timeline or schedule for yourself for your daily activities. Because then also that becomes the norm, that becomes the, like you can anticipate that. And it also becomes a form of communication so you can be able to communicate with other people in your life and say, you know, I'm not available right now because I'm doing my exercise or meditation or you know, essentially self care that being able to prioritize yourself that way to set boundaries around your, the important time. Because that's the thing is with kids.

You know, you want to be able.

To also be available to your kids. So it's a little tricky to figure out when is the time I'm available for the kids, when is the time I'm taking care of myself.

Yeah. And for me I think it's a lot about, you know, we invest in the parents so that they can invest in their family. And so a lot of that kind of comes from, like you mentioned, this whole self care idea and being consistent. We have to invest in ourselves in order to invest in the well being of our children. And so whether that's having a schedule and for some people, schedule and routine, there's a sense of security that's attached to that and consistency. And so for children, I know for our youngest in particular, routine and schedule is anchoring for him. And so, you know, when I think about that for parents, what is most important, if we have these resources in place, things can come, can become much more routine and consistent for them. And there's always room and flexibility to talk about kind of cross training in the co parenting realm. If we're working with, you know, a two parent household, which is, you know, what are your strengths and weaknesses as far as the things, you know, around the house is concerned, whether that's cooking or maintenance or etc. And can you cross train essentially the other parent to be able to pick up in times when that's necessary? You know, one of the things that I notice for people who, you know, they have, they have a new baby, they come home and they're like, well, now what do we do? I felt the same. I sat in the back of my car and I looked at my son on the way home and I'm like, well, what do I do now? What do I do now? I take them home.

It's all on you.

Yeah, yeah, you take them home and you try to figure it out. But there's a lot of planning that can kind of alleviate some of the strain that comes with the transition, they call it, you know, the fourth trimester, the matrescence. And so when I think about that, and I think about, you know, the decreasing the overall stress level within a household, it's making sure that everything is in place as much as possible before you get there. And this whole parental burnout idea that the parents that you typically see that are experiencing true burnout have been parents for a while because they're exposed to this stress for a long, prolonged period of time. If you start with resourcing people earlier on, my idea behind this is that you are going to be less at risk so that you have the other things in place. Because as the pandemic has demonstrated, a lot of things have fallen apart. And we're seeing things in certain.

Not specialties, but realms falling apart with child care and all these things that aren't as accessible now.

Those things to figure that out earlier on, I think are more protective. It's like preventative versus symptom treatment, in a sense.

And it's, you know, you're mentioning. I started thinking of, like, postpartum depression, which I also feel like there's not enough awareness for postpartum depression either.

But I.

Whenever I'm thinking about postpartum, I'm thinking, well, what about the rest of the child's life? You know, because postpartum depression, sure. The first few months after delivery. And there it's very common for parents, and especially moms, to experience.

Depression or another form of burnout with having a newborn.

I love that you're really pointing out that it doesn't just stop postpartum. The potential for burnout continues throughout the parent experience and to be able to acknowledge it.

Because again, sometimes when people experience symptoms, it feels like we can kind of be judgmental of ourselves and critical ourselves.

And even then there's.

I could imagine where someone might feel critical of themselves if they're like, oh, I didn't prepare well enough, or I didn't, you know, I didn't know. And so just really, any listeners to encourage you to say, you know, just try not to be hard on yourself because it's. It's so common to find yourself in a position of feeling overwhelmed and burned out and to know that there's resources to help you. You're talking about how much prevention makes a difference. But also, even if you already find yourself there, it's like, okay, let's start creating a plan and putting the resources together at whatever point you're at so that you can then start to Break the pattern and prevent it in the future. So I'm assuming, do you find that people can get help at any point when they realize they need help?

Of course, of course. I mean, the other problem that we're currently dealing with is, you know, we talk about mental health a lot. I think social media has a lot that, you know, posts on mental health awareness. I mean, right now, May is mental health awareness month. And so as a branch of our business and we have this platform that we get to share all these free resources or you know, like something inspirational, whatever the case may be. But there are tons of resources out there. I think for some though, they're finding that.

There'S not a lot of therapists that are available in their area or they're not necessarily sure what numbers to call. I mean, Postpartum Support International is a great free resource to people. You can also text as well as calls. So there are definitely resources. And I think at times it makes more sense, as I was saying, to have those resources in place prior because one, you never know when you're going to need it and two, you don't know if either your partner is going to need that or a friend that you can share that with. But there's definitely, I mean, I want to clarify that too. Like you are never alone. People are never alone in this struggle. A lot of parents kind of struggle silently because they're scared that their children are going to be taken away.

It's just so important that we continue to build a suitcase of resources for parents and make it easier for them to seek out help and to do it in a nonjudgmental way.

That I think is key.

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So.

Tell us more about what do you offer for people? And like you're mentioning, you offer a lot on Instagram. That's how I connected with you and I'm so grateful, you know, to have found you there. But tell us more like what are some of the ways that you help people?

Yeah, so you know, like I said, I prioritize a parental. Parental well being in general. So I look at what's modifiable and what's not modifiable within their ecosystem.

So you one on one for that they.

Yes. Okay. Yeah, they can work on me one on one, you know, one to couple. We are going to offer some workshops because we think that's also important. It's a great way to build community as well. We're big on that. We want to, you know, in some way because it's been so difficult doing everything on zoom. Some people are saying, oh, I feel so zoomed out. I want to reconnect with people. And so that's definitely more of a goal is to be able to work one to group because I think it's just important that we all kind of share the resources in a circular fashion. Maybe some have resources that they already know are like their go tos and some may not have any idea like what's available for fathers, single dads, and.

So.

That is also available. But for me it's really important to kind of work with people directly so that can be working with an ob, working with pediatricians, teen health doctors to just work in a complimentary fashion so they can provide their care, their treatment plan, and I provide the resource portion which then helps complement their care.

Awesome. All right, well, that's so, I mean it's so great that you've put this together and bringing awareness to it and really helping to. It sounds like provide resources for parents, but also to practitioners, practitioners to even so that they're even aware that this is something to talk about with patients and to provide resources for. So yeah, to me that's just, it's just so needed and so helpful. So thank you. Thank you so much for what you're doing.

Yeah, I mean, for me too. When I kind of think about some of the questions that parents have and they say, well, I'm not entirely sure if I should be asking my OB or somebody else, but even just packing your bag for the hospital, I know that there's tons of graphics that say you need to have X, Y and Z ready for the hospital, but what are the other components you're talking about, like, delayed cord clamping versus cord blood registry and what is the process for cord blood registry.

Notes?

On and on and on, right?

Oh, yeah. I mean, you can go on forever and ever and ever. And so some of these questions, and we know that generally office visits are quite short. Between the time that you see either a medical assistant or a nurse and your healthcare provider time is limited, people feel like, oh, well, I'm getting my scan today, maybe I'm getting my glucose checked, and yada, yada, yada. But I don't know when I can ask some of these questions. And they're not medically related questions, but they're important nonetheless. And so I try putting that together for people so they don't feel like, oh, embarrassed. And I don't want to sound stupid or I should know this answer. No, you don't need to know the answer. We can prepare that for you so that you feel more well informed.

And yeah, yeah, I'm imagining like, you.

Know, people go through a childbirth preparation class, but this is like a parenting preparation class, you know, like how to. How to prepare to. To be a parent, to take care of both yourself and your child in a way that's going to be, you know, most beneficial to everyone. And. And so, yeah, so that seems like, you know, definitely a way that people could go, oh, yeah, of course I need a parenting class. And I think there's things about it, too, that, besides kind of the. The things like you're mentioning, like, how do I do this? Or what's the difference between this and this? I also really see a lot of times parents feel overwhelmed with the decisions they're making. I mean, I would say sometimes the hardest decisions we ever have to make are decisions we have to make for another person being our child, and how to really be able to gather information, to be able to make decisions for your child. You know, that's, I would think, another really important topic for parents, you know, because that alone can be overwhelming.

There's a lot that I feel. I took the. What I call as a Prepare the Nest class. There was a lot that was missing from it. And I know I'm not the only person to feel that way. And so a lot of those questions, like I was saying, you know, they may not be discussed during a Prepare the Nest class. And so, you know, the more you talk to parents, the more you kind of hear the statement, I wish I would have had.

I wish I would have known. And for me, that's where, you know, the powerful Pearls lie. Once you start compiling all that stuff, you start to see, well, this is what's missing, this is what can be added.

Wow.

So, I mean, I know on Instagram and your website is called Run, Tell mom, right? Which is such a cute name. You're so creative.

I came up with that. I came up with that because I started thinking, well, for me, when somebody has a question in the house, they run and tell them. They run and tell Mom. But no, in all seriousness, I mean, it's not just about. For me, it's about all parents I want to be. I am in service to all parents and all family dynamics and so kind of helping the parent to parent in a way that is a little bit more relaxed and more practical and decreasing that stress. Because we know how damaging long term, unmitigated, prolonged stress can be on the body, how it can impact you. And so once you plant that seed early, that becomes practice, right? Like that's an active practice for you. So you plant that seed and then that's how you kind of gradually make your way through parenthood, is you have the things that you need. They're going to change throughout time. Of course you're going to need some things to be customized a bit more. But now you have an idea of, okay, well, this is what's worked for me. And sometimes it's a little bit of a, you know, a try and fail. Things aren't going to be one size fits all for everyone. Certain parents are going to need certain resources at one period of time and others a different period of time. And so it's really important that we listen to what families are saying that they need currently, especially now, because things have changed so drastically over the past 14 months. Priorities have shifted completely. And so, yeah, it's just, it's really important to kind of listen to those voices because that guides what I do. It's exactly what what I do.

I love that and I love how you, you've come up, you've really been able to come up with terminology to describe what you do, like parental burnout, interventionist. You know, like, you're someone who can like, come in and say, hey, okay, let's look at what's going on.

Let's look at what help is needed.

And then guide from there in a nonjudgmental way.

And.

And I hope never, you know, I hope to see people before they get to that point, of course, because I want to put the resources in place to prevent. And so that kind of term, I'm a little bit flexible with it right now, because I know that for some people it can be alarming to hear that, and I don't want to. One of the things that I don't want to do is ever come off as being an alarmist in burnouts. I want to make sure that we're kind of comforting parents and what they need and taking these things seriously so that they don't get to that point. Because once you're at that point, you definitely need more, I guess, kind of tertiary.

Care. That's different than what I provide. But I'm trying to intervene before we get to that point.

Well, and I think that's an important.

Message to say, hey, even if you're anticipating a change in your family or you're kind of just even starting to notice that things are feeling overwhelming or you have a lot of unanswered questions, that's a good time to reach out to you, because it's before it really starts to get worse. And I know sometimes we always are kind of like, oh, well.

I can get through it. Hopefully it doesn't get worse. But it's still better to reach out even early as possible.

So you can try to get help and prevent it from becoming more burnout and more overwhelmed.

Yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, there's plenty of providers that you can seek out to discuss if you have that concern, that particular concern. Sometimes it's the spouse that ends up seeing that.

The change in their partner, and they're the ones that can kind of identify it first before the parent who has burnout even recognizing it. And so it's really important that we kind of tune in, too, to our partner and how they're doing, because we were their first contact. We're like their first responder. And so this is what I was saying before working.

You know, working with your partner in that invisible workload, and, you know, how you're managing things within the household, that cross training kind of a thing, like, how can I offload you so that you're, you know, strong in this realm?

That's all that is very important.

And it's different, I think, from, I mean, even different cultures or even in American society years back. There's kind of roles like, this parent does this, this parent does that. And I think you're saying, hey, we need to just look at the situation and figure out maybe those roles cross.

Or.

Complement and help each other out.

And so it's really acknowledging that there's some shifts in cultural roles with, say, moms or dads or who's in what position? You know, just, hey, we need to look at what's needed and work together to, for everyone's benefit.

And there's a recent study that was done, it was a 42 country study looking at burnout and society wise, where that tends to happen. And you know, some of the traits of the parent. One is perfectionist parenting.

And if you think about it, and I keep going back to social media, but I can't think of a better, you know, a better comparison. But we see a lot on do this, don't do that, be this type of parent, don't be this type of parent. And there is a lot of external pressure that exists that people, you know, you're seeing these messages kind of all day long. And yes, some messages can be very helpful graphics to kind of.

Demonstrate some different things that you can do within the home as far as how you're speaking to your child or how you're interacting, creative play, et cetera. But this pressure to be perfect and on point, 24 hours a day, seven days a week is exhausting. And as I said, one of the hallmarks of parental burnout is this severe exhaustion in your parental role. And we're not just talking about, oh, I'm tired, I didn't get a couple of nights of sleep. We're talking about like this kind of long term pattern of my body is totally exhausted from this role and how that kind of plays into it. And also there is this component of examining different cultures and where we see burnout the most. And it seems like it's happening more in Western cultures.

And so, I mean there's lots of data, lots of new data that's coming out on this. Like I said, it's not like a brand new topic. But there's more studies that are being done on this now. And I kind of think if we start to see how different cultures are doing things and adapting to parenthood and kind of having like a very integrated approach at how we can ease into parenthood and learn from each other. I think it's a powerful way to kind of coexist in this parenting hemisphere.

Oh my gosh.

Thank you so much. Lot of just insights and helpful information. What do you suggest? Someone wants to get in touch with you? What's the best way to reach you?

Yeah, so my website is runtomom.com there's a contact form on there. We're going to be doing workshops sooner than later. So that will definitely be on the website when we'll be offering workshops. And then one on one Consultation, like I said, you can just hit the contact form there and you'll get in touch with me. Some people reach me by dm, DM on Instagram. Although I like to direct people to the website. I think that's easier because we get all kinds of dms and sometimes it's hard to kind of keep up with all that stuff. And so yes, website rentalmom.com I love it.

Oh my gosh. Thank you so much, Shelly. Is there anything else? Make sure people know before we, before we finish.

I would say I said it this morning in a real. But parental wellness is, is very important one and it is prioritized way past May, which is mental health awareness month. And I just want to keep kind of this, like put a pin in that and say we need to prioritize parental well being.

Every single day. Not just when it's trending, not just when it's like, you know, considered. This is a month that we're focusing on it the most. It's of utmost importance. So I just think that it impacts the entire family and we need to take it as seriously as possible.

Oh, I think that that gives me goosebumps. I mean, it's important to the parents health because we know that burnout and stress can lead to health issues for the par, but also it can lead to health issues for the child. We know so much about.

Looking at the stress of childhood events that would be the extreme of stress exposure in childhood. But we know that for both parents and children, that stress exposure can cause genetic expression to happen. So any predispositions can come up. Sometimes, I presume sometimes this might become more apparent if say, a parent actually comes down with a health issue or a child comes down with a health issue because the health issue is showing us that there's a lot of stress on the system and needing to relook at things and reprioritize and say, hey, what do we need to do differently in our schedules and our societal roles and the way we're doing things so that we're not pushing each other to the point of health issues.

You know, just being willing to be open and say, hey, what, what's happening here? What can I do differently? What can I do to help my family through this so that everyone can, you know, be preventing health issues? I mean, I really agree with you. I think this is, you know, really important and really serious and to just again, start by knowing that it's, it's, there's nothing to feel bad about. It's a common, it Makes sense why this would happen and to just let yourself reach out for help, because help is there and it can make a big difference.

Yeah, it can make a huge difference. Absolutely.

I'm sure you have stories of people you've worked with that have been helped by your resources already.

Yeah, I mean, what's interesting now is I'm still trying to, you know, figure out, website wise, what I need to capture versus what not to capture. But I've been redirecting a lot of people that need more resources than what I can particularly offer, which is like therapeutic resources. But that's, that's something important for me to kind of understand, which is what are people looking for right now? And unfortunately there's been a lot of circumstances where people are saying just in general they need crisis management. And so it's been important for me to kind of truly understand what it is that people are looking for. And the more I kind of simplify that message, utilizing social media as a branch of a business, like a business card in a sense, in saying we can get you earlier on during that preventative stage by resourcing you up so that hopefully at this point.

This doesn't become an issue. And so definitely working through that quite a bit. And like I said, I'm always happy to help people and happy redirecting people too.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, wonderful.

Well, oh my gosh, thank you again for everything you do and for coming to chat with me today and share about this. And, and so I'm. What I hear you saying is if people have questions, might as well ask you because you can let them know whether it's something you can help with or what is the best resource for that, for their question. So definitely, you know, reach out to Shelly if this is resonating with you. And, and again, I'm, I'm Dr. Donnie and I'm so glad to be able to share, you know, this information. So thank you again, Shelly and I look forward to staying in touch with you.

Yeah, absolutely. Dr. Donney, thank you again.

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