Podcast

The information provided in this podcast is educational and not intended to diagnose or treat medical conditions.

Dr. Donnie Wilson struggled for decades to solve her numerous health issues and heal her body. But with focused determination, she healed herself. And in doing so, she discovered the Dr. Donnie stress recovery Protocol. On this show, you're going to hear from doctors, nutritionists and Experts along with Dr. Donnie, who will give practical advice and wisdom to help heal your body. This is how humans heal.

Hi and welcome to how humans heal. I'm Dr. Donnie Wilson and today I'm really looking forward to introducing you to Dr. Susan Fox. She's a doctor of acupuncture and Chinese medicine, and she's the creator of the youe Fertile Health program as well as the best prep for IVF online summit. Susan, I'm so glad you are here to join me today and talk about this with our audience.

Thank you, Dr. Donnie. I'm so delighted to be here. I love this conversation and could talk about it forever.

That's so amazing and beautiful because so many people out there are struggling with fertility and trying to go through the IVF process and all of the stresses that come with that. And they're really needing help and guidance. And there's, of course, as you and I both know, there's so much we can do to support people, both men and women, with their fertility. I think it's really wonderful that you're supporting them with fertility. It's something that I love to do with my patients as well, is to support fertility because there is so much we can do to help, especially from these other perspectives. Right. It's like, how can we learn from these other systems of medicine that can come together with standard approaches for fertility and work together for a better outcome? And so I know that's what you and I are going to get to talk more about today, but I wanted to start by just asking you, how is it that you discovered this passion for helping people with fertility?

Yeah, well, it was actually quite fortuitous in that when I opened practice, it just so happened to be soon after one of the first.

Protocols, acupuncture protocols, had come out for fertility. And it was such a statistically significant improvement in outcomes just on the day of transfer that people were coming to me. It was a grassroots kind of approach. And I also happened to be having an office across the hall from a fertility center. So it became quite a sudden and then long term immersive event where from 2002 to 2024, there's been so much progress in the realm of The IVF world, there's been so much inclusion thanks to good, solid research that demonstrates the efficacy, so that we've really become quite an integrative model for the most part. Not always, but for part. And yeah, it's something that I just feel so passionate about because personally I feel that infertility is a bit of a misnomer. I feel that we suffer from chronic sub fertility due to, and I don't need to say this to you, due to our many environmental factors, environmental toxins, lifestyles, sleep, wake patterns, limited circulation, limited targeted circulation. And so I think that's where people like yourself and myself can really come in handy to remind these women and people that they can make some simple, not always easy changes that will dramatically improve their fertility.

Oh, it's so true. And I think especially when people are in that fertility journey, at some point they come to a place where they realize and they ask themselves, what else can I be doing? Yes, I'm following along the conventional, maybe at first what the gynecologist or obstetrician can do or the reproductive endocrinologist can do and going down that path. But at some point people think, what else can I do? Because of the research that you mentioned about acupuncture and the benefits of it, I do think that more people are aware that they might choose acupuncture to support their fertility path. I'm just wondering if you can just share a little bit more about that. What does that look like if someone's thinking, maybe I'll consider acupuncture as part of my path? What are things for them to be thinking about or in choosing an acupuncturist and what that. And knowing what that might look like.

Yeah, that's an excellent question because unfortunately there are, you know, it's a wild wild west out there a little bit. There are people who say, I'm a fertility expert that wouldn't be able to tell you the difference between, you know, primary or secondary infertility, let alone some of the other nuances. So there is an organization, it's called, it's, it's acronym is ab.

The Acupuncture and tcm Board of Reproductive Medicine. And these are individuals who have taken it upon themselves to be tested. And it is a test that covers both conventional Western medicine, IVF medicine, as well as Chinese medicine, so that we really have an understanding and can translate some of what's going on. When this individual gets a diagnosis of, say, pcos or diminished ovarian reserve, or gets a lab that says her AMH is low or something like that, then have the language to be able to describe what's going on. And then we have the tools that are able to say, this is what we can do to help you. Whether it be a nutrition plan, the right supplements, because everybody does not need the same supplements. It really does matter what is going on for your unique presentation. And then the right acupuncture protocols based on that. Now, what I will say is not everybody can make it to an acupuncturist.

What I took it upon myself to design to sort of interpolate the acupuncture treatment protocols and created acupoint treatment protocols that can be done in the comfort of one's own home and that uses both infrared and a TENS unit. We call it teas, Transcutaneous electrical acupoint stimulation. So that this person can get acupuncture without needles up to six days a week and really just improve exponentially her experience in getting circulation to her ovaries and uterus.

That's awesome. How amazing, because that's the thing. Yes. Like, you can do a lot of things virtually, but how can you do acupuncture virtually? And you solve that. You're like, we can. We can absolutely teach you the points to use and how to stimulate them without having to have the acupuncturist there with needles. And I love that. You also pointed out that it's. It's not just about acupuncture, that Chinese medicine isn't just about acupuncture. There's so much more to it. And we can go into this. You mentioned how we need to look at the whole body and all of the environmental exposures that a person has. So maybe you can even just define for the audience, what does that mean, Chinese medicine, What does that include and what that might look like to them.

Sure, sure. Well, we have something of a funny language ourselves because it's such an ancient med. And we do use what we call the five elements of Chinese medicine as our sort of points to take a look at. So those five elements relate to different organ systems in our body. So, for instance, if a person is, I'm looking at the photo behind you, stressed, and is then therefore having difficulty either manufacturing hormones within their body or clearing hormones. We would attribute that to a liver Qi stagnation. And that liver qi stagnation diagnosis falls within the element of the wood element. The wood element loves to create and procreate. And when it is either suppressed or depressed or oppressed, it can't do that very well and it gets stuck and stagnant. So we look for ways both within, like maybe some qigong exercises or maybe a dance party in your living room to shake off that excess. We use dietary instruction as to how do we use the term soften the liver so that it is not quite so congested so that it can do a better job. And then we also just work on, you know, like the emotional component. And that's what I love particularly about the five element model is that it is inclusive of the emotions, whereas a lot of other medicines are either mind, body or physical, physiological. But we are all of these things, right? So that, that liver qi stagnant person is going to be person who maybe has PMS because she is too stuck. She may be the person who is getting a little bit of road rage when she's, you know, maybe having just one too many red lights to get to her destination because again she wants to actually express herself. Then what? So we highlight these, these places of imbalance and then also highlight what it is to get that back into balance once again to create, super create. And you know, we also want to always want to lean toward the positive. So we want to make sure we're not just diagnosing the so called negative. But we're saying this is where you will get to when you clear these liver qi stagnations and you open up that wood element, you will become more creative and more procreative. So that's just one example of the five elements. I won't, I won't bore you with all of the elements, but.

Well, no, this is what I was going to say because it is such a, as you mentioned, an ancient medicine. And, and how like sometimes just realizing that we can, you know, that humans back in time were figuring out the human body before they could do an MRI or blood testing, you know, and they were figuring out how we are such integrated beings, mind, body, spirit. And the beautiful thing about Chinese medicine, as you're saying, is that it, it, it honors all of that and it integrates it and, and the terminology of the five elements is what helps a Chinese medicine doctor to do that. So maybe we don't want to go into all the detail of the elements, but if you just, just let's talk through them briefly because I also find that like, what I find is really cool as a naturopathic doctor is that the elements are based on nature. These are substances from nature. That, so it also allows us to connect in with our humanness and our relationship to nature. And to then see where we're out of balance. Right. It's all about a balancing act and a balancing the systems. And so, yeah, tell us more about.

I'm happy to. I'm happy to. And you're absolutely right. You know, we are one with nature and the ancient practices were observing, keenly observing, so that we didn't need the reductionist method of an mri, for instance. But, you know, we could see in someone's color and Shen is a term we use. Spirit, the color of the. And texture and size of their tongue, the degree of complexity in their pulse will all give us some. And of course, their own history telling. I always say if I listen well enough, this patient will tell me exactly what's going on and exactly what she needs. So I just kind of translate for her what she said to me. So. But to carry on all of these organ systems, all of these elements support and generate the qi, the energy of the. Each other. So when a liver system, when the, when the wood system is, is flowing smoothly, it will really support the generation of the fire system. And that fire system has more to do with our sense of ease and peace and lack of anxiety and you know, and sleeplessness and things like that. When, when someone's fire element is out of balance, she's going to be a little bit more manic. She's going to have maybe, you know, restless sleep or sleep disturbance. She would also emotionally be the person who would say, oh, is fine, tell me about you. Because she wants to deflect. She doesn't want to ground and sit with this discomfort. So, and that. But, but yet when, when things go back into balance for her, she's a joy. She, she really is the person who lights up the room when she walks in. We know that person, right? We've all felt that person. There's an energetic about that Shen person that is like, oh, it's a very attractive and appealing and magnetic. So, so we give her, you know, some tools to again bring herself back into balance, to cool that heat and to. And to sort of ground her so that she can remember who she is and express her joy that way. Then we have the earth element. And that earth element is rather earthy, groundy. And so when that element goes out of balance, that person can become a little bit phlegm, have a damp accumulation is the term we use. So that person can be prone to cysts or polycystic ovarian syndrome. Since we're talking in the fertility realms or just digestive complaints, things aren't flowing Smoothly So we again focus on what is showing up as her imbalance. Explain to her that this is why things are going out of balance and help her get back into balance. She tends to be more the person who does well with a warming kind of spices, sweet warming spices, cinnamon, cardamom, clove, that kind of thing. So I always think of the East Indian or the Chinese congee, you know, the things that are easily cooked but have all the nutrients in them. Emotionally when she's out of balance, she becomes the person who's Google searching everything. She, you know, she just can't let her mind settle. Her mind wants to flit a little bit from place to place. Just like a, she just can't get off that, that thought wheel of things aren't right and I need to make them right. When she's in balance, she is very pensive, she's thoughtful. She's the one who everybody will be talking about something and she'll come up with the, the pearl that everyone says that's what we wanted to say, that's what we're honing in on. So, so she, she has so much to offer to, to the world. And we want to make sure that, you know, we help clear the debris, if you will, of these phlegm and damp accumulations so that she can just fully express the air element is one in which she will be, tend to be more grief stricken. So you know, that first drop of menstrual blood, she's, she tends to collapse. You know, you can almost see it in her body structure. You know, her lungs actually go in and the air element has, governs the lung and the large intestine where we want to take in and inspire and take in nutrients. And then we also want to exhale and excrete so that we're, so that we're staying clean. So with that person, we really want to give her a little bit more of a sweep, if you will. So she does well with the more of the acrid kind of herbs and spices. And she does well when we really try to encourage her, what we call yin, her fluids. Because when somebody's, when somebody's collapsed and these organ systems that are, that are meant to have just the right amount of moisture, get too much moisture, we really want to help clear that out. And when they get too dry, you know, asthma, raspy throat, we want to help nourish them. And then finally the fifth element is the water element. And that is the element that governs what we call the kidney organ system. And that is One that is always almost, I think, almost always implicated when there's a reproductive imbalance issue because it governs what we call growth, reproduction and aging and therefore our hormones. So we have a predominant one just by nature, constitutionally, but then all of them will somehow affect the kidney organ system. When fertility or infertility or subfertility is.

Showing, I know how scary it can be when you get a pap smear result that shows positive for HPV and potentially abnormal cells. It's hard to know who to trust and where to get information to help you solve it. That's exactly why I decided to do something about it. I'm Dr. Donnie, and after helping thousands of women over the past two decades to clear HPV 10 negative and keep it negative, I decided to create things HPV Kickstart program. This step by step online program is designed to teach you the essential knowledge you need for your body to heal itself. You'll get access to a comprehensive series of videos that will help guide you through the diet changes you can make, the supplements to take, as well as ways to address the underlying causes of the virus. You can clear the HPV virus just go to, to drdonnie.com kickstart or use the link below to get started. I'll see you there. Thank you. I love that because it really, I think, paints the picture of how you know the words that you're using in the, in the language and the, and the way of thinking about it and to see where it can match up with some of the more conventional medical way of thinking and working and, you know, to see that they're not contradictory with each other. In fact, they can be very supportive of each other. And I'm getting the sense that as, you know, just also, as people are listening who may be on a fertility journey realizing, oh, the way this helps is because it can be bringing these systems into balance so that your body is more optimally functioning. Tell us more like, how do you perceive that addressing this balance of the five elements, how does that end up supporting fertility?

Right. Well, it's funny that I'm thinking about a book that I'm listening to that talks about this is a 103-year-old medical doctor, Dr. Gladys, and her book is A Life well Lived. And it's. I recommend it for everyone. And she speaks in her own language. She called it Juice, what we call chi. It's just, you know, the same thing, different language. But she will say, life needs to be lived. Right? Life. It's an imperative that we. That life needs to be lived. And so when there's anything that is stuck and a little bit out of balance, we look for the place where we can move. So we look for the. For the thing that's right in front of us, the very first thing that we can make changes to. So, you know, if it's our. If it's our nutrition, then we. Then we make changes to our new. Our nutrition first. If it is our expression and we need to get some, you know, counseling or therapy or talk to a friend, then that's the thing we do first. Because sometimes it's hard to take on all of the things, right? But once it's interesting, once we start to take on one, we want to take on the next, because we really do want to move and live and progress. And it really becomes this impetus into saying, oh, yes, I can do that next step. And then. And then our bodies, you know, our bodies respond. Our bodies are very intentional on their in. In that they can heal and want to heal. So when we give them the tools to heal, they will respond. And things open up. Circulation opens up, cortisol lowers, byproducts of reactive oxidative species, inflammatory markers lower. And when. When those inflammatory markers are high in our body, they're high in our follicles as well. The follicular fluid will demonstrate elevated C reactive proteins, elevated insulin. So we are not separate. I mean, I think that for all the wonder of conventional medicine and how it's been able to just discreetly say, if this is going on, we can address that. We can stimulate those follicles. We have missed the mark. We've been so enamored with technology that we've missed the mark on saying, oh, this is a whole person, and we need to address the whole person or help the whole person help him or herself. And I will say that I'm also seeing, even in the conventional medicine model now within the IVF community, there is that shift, there is that perspective to say, oh, wait a minute, if someone has pcos, we don't want to just stimulate her and get those embryos transferred. This is a person who we need to really help with her metabolic syndrome patterns because she is otherwise going to be set up for having, you know.

Oh, my goodness, I forgot the name.

Diabetes, gestational diabetes. Isn't that funny? That just flew out of my mind. Or cardiac events in the future. So we really do have to look at these symptoms or these diagnoses and say, how do we help this whole person for the rest of her life?

It's so beautiful. And I really hope that. I would wish that all fertility centers would include this as part of their approach. And you know, but I know that, that they don't all include that. So women might be, say, working with a fertility clinic and then maybe also, for example, they could use your program, which is an online program to. Is tell us more. Is this what you guide them through in, in the, in the, you know.

In your, your Fertile Health program? Yes, it is. It is a four week times three month program. Because, because folliculogenesis, the arc of time that it takes for an egg to go from its primordial pool to its ovulation is about 100 days, 220 days.

But that person can fall pregnant at any time. She can fall pregnant in the first month. It's just that second month is having an exponential effect on the next ovulatory cycle. It's not three times, it's probably 3,000 times or even more of the benefit because that's kind of how our tissues are. They're going to get better and, and better as we give them more, more to do. And once again, my primary goal in creating the your Fertile Health Program was not to create another crutch, if you will, but it was to create protocols and recommendations that this person can do on her own. We're all so busy, we can't easily get to one, let alone the research that we see that shows successes. Two acupuncture treatments, treatment sessions per week. I couldn't do that and lots can't. It's time and cost prohibitive. So with the, with the program, you can, in the comfort of your own home, do the infrared and the TENS unit. There are videos that demonstrate exactly how to. There are qigong videos for the five phases of the four weeks of the menstrual cycle. There are mind body guided meditations that use binaural beats to really help shift, shift that mindset from being so stressed and frightened that it won't happen to really understanding and engaging with what's going on at each of the five phases of the four weeks of her menstrual cycle, such that she once again has agency over her own life experience. And there's of course, the nutritional guides and all of that stuff.

It sounds incredible and absolutely. I find that exactly what you're describing makes such a difference with my patients as well. It makes so much sense to me that, that what you said where the more you implement the exponential benefit in terms of fertility, let alone your whole house, you know, I'm Sure. That when people go through your program, they find that their overall health improves along with their fertility.

Absolutely. Whole health is fertile health. Fertile health is whole health. They are not. You cannot separate the two.

Yeah. And to be able to access that from wherever and be able to implement and that. That feeling of empowerment that comes with it. So that it's because I think a lot of times with the fertility in the fertility work that women feel like they don't have control. And you use that word, they don't. That stuck feeling. Right. Like feeling. Feeling stuck, feeling trapped, feeling, you know, out of control of the process and this unknown of when anything's going to happen. And to be able to have a program that helps you feel empowered and do the things you can control.

Yeah. Thank you. I mean, I clearly, I am my biggest fan because. And I'm not my only biggest fan. There are testimonials on the website that demonstrate how successful this has been for people who have either had unsuccessful IVFs and then they do the program and they have successful IVFs. People who have been told they need a donor egg and then fall pregnant naturally. People who are waiting for their IVF cycle to begin and then they fall pregnant naturally. So this is, you know, there's enough of a variety of individuals and age and so forth and, you know, preferences that.

I think it speaks for itself that this is not something that was a sort of a one off. It really is something that is helpful and helpful for anyone and everyone. And of course there's no guarantee.

But what I can guarantee. There's no guarantee for pregnancy for babe in arms, but I can guarantee that following this program will improve your whole health and therefore your fertile health beyond baby, beyond postpartum, well into, you know, the next phases of life, perimenopause and so forth.

Yeah, beautiful. It's. I completely know what you mean. And to some degree we almost have to enter into it with that mindset of I'm showing up with this intention to improve my health and my fertility and then. And I'm really committed to, to having a pregnancy. And yet if we're too attached, then it works against us in some ways, doesn't it?

Absolutely. Absolutely. My mantra is we need to engage 100% and surrender 100% because life again with Dr. Gladys. Life is. Life wants to live. So if we can't grip this, I'm checking all the boxes and therefore, where's my baby? That's not how life works. That is how we accomplish our, our credential, our degrees, get our Job, have our successes and so forth. If you do this, then you get that most of the time. Sometimes it doesn't work that way either. But in terms of, you know, getting pregnant, having a baby, end of life, even, like, there. There's a place in which life will live itself, and our job is to help it live most healthfully and with our best intentions so that our purpose for coming in here in this skin suit called life is. Is better fulfilled, healed.

Ah, I love the way you say that. And to really, really be able to reflect on that and to, yeah, as you say, to some degree, surrender to that flow of life. And, and, and I, I'm, you know, based on the. The name of this podcast, How Humans Heal, I think that's right. Is that what you would say is that's absolutely.

How humans heal is by engaging with one on individual life and purpose and the need that the world has for that. You came in to do many things and so do all the things. And yes, you can have this moment in time where there's nothing more that you want than to get pregnant and have a healthy baby and at the same time live all of life and, you know, be in right relationship with all of your life experiences to the best of your ability. Yeah. I think that how humans heal is having the agency and the desire and the commitment to fully express oneself as.

A living human being and be willing to. It sounds like too like this process of. It takes vulnerability to really be willing to look inside and say, where are the imbalances? Right. Because we would like to. Sometimes we would like to think, oh, there's nothing wrong, you know, when we kind of avoid or dismiss what our bodies are telling us. And with Chinese medicine, as you're describing it, it's about being vulnerable enough to say, hey, is there an imbalance? But really it's where our body needs attention, where we can then make different decisions to support our body to function more optimally.

Exactly. And I would say that with vulnerability comes probably the most profound courage that one can ever muster or express. You know, the women, the people who come across my practice, I just bow to their courage to say, I'm in this place, on my knees. I want this very desperately, and can you help? And my answer is, of course, psychic health. And to just acknowledge them for the courage that it takes to say, I can't do this alone.

Yeah.

Because life is not meant to be done alone.

Ah, that's so true. So true. And I'm so glad that you're. You've created now the best prep for IVF summit because this is an opportunity for women to and couples really right to come and learn more from you and others about how to support their fertility process. Tell us more about it because I'm excited to share that with everyone listening in.

I'm excited, excited to have it hosted and I'm so excited that you'll be a part of it as well. Dr. Donnie, I've been observing what seems to be a dichotomy out there in social media land that has been ivf. Bad natural conception. Good natural conception. Ooh, scary. You might miss your window. Come do ivf when in fact there is the majority of professionals in this field are what I call arms linked on behalf of the patient, getting the right care, be it nutrition, hydration, circulation, so on and so forth. Be it, you know, good coaching, IVF coaching, be it.

The education in, oh, you've got endometriosis. This is what it looks like and this is why we need to help it. Be it Men's Health, we've got one of the now reproductive urologists speaking as well as a Men's Health longevity doctor, medical doctor. We. I'm just so humbled with who is coming through to say yes, they will be speaking at this because it is, it's a lineup of some of my, my biggest stars. And I know that and I've seen already because, you know, we've been talking. They are delivering some absolute pearls. So, so attending this summit, you'll, you'll be taking away so much that you can just take action on and make changes on. And you'll be obviously being able to meet, meet the professionals in case you need to, you know, check in with any one of them on your own after the summit and say, oh, you know, you're my person. I really need to or want to work with you. So I'm just over the moon.

Oh, I'm so, so grateful for you for bringing that together because it is so needed. There's again, so many people who are, I would say, suffering in the process of wanting to create a pregnancy and a family. And, and it gives me goosebumps to think about, hey, we can actually help each other that couples don't have to be on their own trying to figure this out, as you said, that we can come together and bring all the wisdom into one place and say, hey, it's not one size fits all. Of course what's going to help one person may be different from the next person. However, if we bring all the wisdom together and we share with each other, then we're going to be able to help more people and help them create families. Families, absolutely.

And, you know, just the research has shown, and I'm sure you're, you're fully familiar with it, that, that the infertility diagnosis or, you know, navigating infertility has a stress level equivalent to that of getting a cancer diagnosis. And a lot of this, I think, has to do also with the isolation and the, you know, and the lack of, you know, advocacy for the, the people who are struggling with fertility. So bringing everyone together is, as I say, a dream come true. Whether it be environmental talk, toxins, and here's your test, or whether it be, you know, you've got pcos, here's, here's a real solid science back breakdown of what that means and here's what you can do about it. I just think that that again, just breaks this, the chain, the burden of someone feeling imprisoned in their own silo and breaks the shame around it. I mean, that's, that's also, I think, a big thing, especially these days where, you know, in our, in our current landscape, we, you know, there's, there's, there's shame of being, being levied around folks who are needing to go into ivf for whatever reason they're choosing to go in to ivf. And, and that just makes my blood boil a little bit. So I really want to make sure that we give these people again, agency to say, you know what, this is my right to take my life and my desire for family into my own hands. And, and I'm going to do it with the help of people who want to help help me.

Beautiful. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's so true. And I'm, I'm so glad we got to have this conversation, Susan, and thank you so much for being here today and for all the work that you do. I'm going to be sure to put links for everyone to your program and to the summit so that everyone listening can join in. Because the summit is going to be online and available so you can really take in all of this information. And as doctor, Dr. Susan said, to be able to then see what's next on your path and your journey and to just know that you're not alone, that we're here to support you.

Absolutely. Oh, Dr. N, thank you so much. I want to be respectful of your time and the listeners time because I could probably, you know, go on and on and on for hours on end, but we'll wait till the summit.

Yes. We've got so much more time to share. And I really, I think it's beautiful because they, I'm sure everyone really sees your beautiful heart and your desire to help and, and that you have such an amazing way to break through boundaries of time, space and say, hey, we can figure this out. And I love that. I'm that kind of person too. Like, we can figure this out and we can help people and so people don't have to be stuck and feeling alone. There are ways to solve it.

I'm fist bumping you here.

Absolutely.

Yes.

Yes. You do not have, you do not have to go through anything alone. There are, there are folks like, like ourselves who are just absolutely desiring of, desiring of nothing more than to help you. I hold this as my legacy project at this point. You know, really, I want, you know, when, when, when my time is done here on this planet. I would love to see infertility reversed. I would love to see, you know, people understanding that they can do a whole lot.

To improve their health, their fertile health, babies, their progeny. And they're in community because, you know, these babies are going to grow up and be another generation of community.

I love it. Thank you so much again and thank you all for listening in today to How Humans heal. Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss the next episode. I look forward to seeing you all again very soon.

Thanks for listening to How Humans Heal. If you liked this episode, leave a rating and a review. And for more resources, visit drdani.com.