Psilocybin: How Healing Trauma Heals Our Bodies

Hi and welcome to how humans heal. I'm Dr. Donnie Wilson, and in this episode, we're going to be talking about psilocybin, which is a psychedelic substance that is used for medicine and healing and more. And I have with me today Nina Badu. She is a psychedelic practitioner and founder of Nana Cattle Healing, as well as a board member of the Guild of Giles, Netherlands. So she is joining us from the Netherlands and she also is training currently at the University of Exeter in psychedelics, mind medicine and culture for a master's degree. And oh my gosh, she has over 7 years experience guiding private and group ceremonies using psilocybin, which is otherwise. Some people know it as magic mushroom, if that's something you might be familiar with. But psilocybin is the active substance in the magic mushrooms. And I'm so honored and so privileged to have Nina here with us today because she has so much experience and knowledge about the use of psilocybin and how it's being used to help so many people around the world. Thank you so much for joining us today, Nina.

I'm so happy to be here, Donnie, and I'm so happy to just to see you again, to hear your voice. It's been a while that, that we've been together as well, and so thank you as well for having me on your podcast, which I have to see is. Is an amazing feat as well. What you've been doing with the podcast. I've been listening to some of the episodes and what you share is just very wonderful and important, I think as well.

Oh, thank you, Nina. Yes. I actually went to Amsterdam to. To be able to sit in ceremony with Nina a couple years ago, and it was so amazing that I wanted to be able to share it here on how humans heal and share what that's like because there's so many more people really opening their minds to this as a possibility for something that they may want to experience in their life. Maybe start with telling us a little more about, like, what that is. When people seek you out, what are, what are. What are the things they're thinking of? What are they wanting help with?

So that's a very good question. And excuse me, let me just take a sip of my tea.

I know this is perfect.

So it can be for so many different reasons.

Right.

And there's never a wrong reason or a right reason for that matter. Right. It's like you, you feel a calling usually. And first of all, it's very important that, that it is a calling that comes from the person Themselves, Right. That it's there. Yes. And their reason can be very broad. So it can be, for instance, that they have certain traumas that they would like to work on, that they would like to process, that they would like to let go of when these are diagnosed in a more serious situation. In regards to PTSD as well, I usually advise a private session. And then people can also come in just out of curiosity. Right. Because they've heard about it, they've read about it, and they feel, well, maybe this might assist me in a certain way, shed some light on things that I haven't looked in that light before. So, yeah, it can be for many different reasons. And the interesting thing is, is that it happens as well that people come from a place of curiosity. And in the prep call, they'll be saying, I am doing yes, there is not much darkness on my horizon, all is well. And then the session takes them very deep. And then all of a sudden all these things rise up from. From below the surface. So for many people, it doesn't really matter per se what your first motivation is. What is going on in your life is that when you feel the calling, you don't really need to know why the medicine will bring up what is needed.

Right.

That is really also the. One of the basic functions of what psilocybin does. It enhances what is there for you that needs to be felt and seen.

It's so amazing. I love the way you're describing that because it's true. We're so used to thinking that we need to control it or we need to have a to do list, you know, that we're going to work through or something. And actually in working with psilocybin as a, as a medicine, a healing medicine, as well as other psychedelic medicines, what. What's very often the case is more of a letting go. Right. Of like, what can I let go of and what can I release and just allow to happen? And what. Whatever comes up is what was meant to come up.

Yes, yes. And I think for many people, this is actually the most difficult thing about this work as well. Even though I take people through an extensive preparation and integration as well. But in the preparation, I always emphasize is try to let go of your expectations as much as possible because it will always be different from what you expect it to be, and especially if it's going to be your first time.

Right.

We have this, this whole idea, this whole notion of what a psychedelic experience is like because of culture as well.

Right.

And especially nowadays with all the new research coming out and the images that we're just used to, to having seen as well from the 60s and the 70s and that, that a psychedelic experience is always a very visual experience. That is definitely not the case for many people.

Right.

And that doesn't mean that you didn't do something right, dosage wasn't right. It's just that it's different for everyone. So I think there's, there's a lot there around expectations about what the journey is supposed to be and what it's supposed to give you that needs to be let go of as well before it can be truly received in the way that it's going to be there for you.

Amazing. And, and I find that to be so much the case as well. I'm as you know, I've been completing the Integrative Psychiatry Institute, which is in the United States. Integrative Psychiatry Institute. They have a psychedelic assisted therapy year long training and it includes psilocybin as one of the substances that we learn about and we learn to also sit with people when they're in use. And I'd like to talk about that more because like a lot of times people I think like maybe hear about psilocybin and maybe want to try it themselves at home. And what is that, what is that difference? To be with someone, be with some, a practitioner, a guide, whether it's private or in a group. You know, like you mentioned there to one, one thing is, and we learned this as well in it, the psych in Integrative Psychiat Institute is these aspects of preparing and then during the ceremony and then or during the experience, however you want to call it, and then after, which is what's called integration. So that's part of it, right? Is when you're working with someone, you, you, you don't just dive in. You have the before, the during and the after. But yeah, tell me more. What, what are you, what is your thoughts on the difference between just taking a substance on your own versus taking a substance with a support person?

Yes. Yeah, very good question. And, and I just want to start by saying that I'm a firm believer that also recreationally you can receive a lot of gifts.

Right.

The big difference is, is that when you do it with an intention and you have somebody there for you throughout the process. So like you're the preparation during the journey and the integration, first of all, you feel that is, that is the, the setup, right. You feel completely safe, right. That that needs to be the setup as well. The setup needs to be in, in full trust.

Right.

But what that means is that when you go into the journey and you have somebody there guiding you, sitting for you, that means that you don't need to think about any of the responsibilities that you would feel otherwise if you wouldn't have that person there for you.

Right.

So such a relief. And you can let go a lot deeper. Right, A lot deeper. Because you know that there is somebody there taking care.

Right.

Taking care of you, guiding you where needed.

Right.

So I think there's this big sense of relief, like you say, and surrendering that can happen when you don't do these things on your own.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's definitely worth considering, I think. And, and especially if someone is hearing about psilocybin and thinking, oh, maybe this is something I'm interested, interested in trying out and. But I'm, you know, feel like, I don't know, I'm hesitant to do it on my own then definitely, you know, knowing that there's practitioners who've been trained in this and, and studying this so thoroughly, maybe share with us a little like, what brought you to this path for yourself.

Yes, of course. Yeah. So my path has really been one of, of a life's path in a way. Growing up in Amster, that's where I'm based and was born and raised as well. I had the ability to experiment from an early age on because it is legal here. It's been legal here for a very long time. So When I was 15 years old, yes. Very young, I was able to walk inside a smart shop and a beautiful smart shop, by the way. Kokopelli. Just a little shout out there. They're very special. If you're ever in Amsterdam, go give them a visit and get the right information and experiment with some magic mushrooms. I also felt very safe to be able to do this because my parents were open to me experimenting in such a way. And that made me feel also like I wasn't doing something that was forbidden.

Right.

And I feel that that first little notion.

Right.

That that comes in there helps a lot with how you experience a psych. Psychedelic experience, a psychedelic journey. If you feel that you are doing something that is forbidden.

Right.

That already gives it a feeling of constriction, a feeling of that you need to watch out, that you need to be careful, that you cannot fully sort of let go inside of the experience. Instead of when, when you feel like, oh, I am, it's okay for me to do this, I can go into this experience. There's an opening, right? So because I was able to experience that first experience in a very sort of safe and welcoming and open way, my first experience was one that was immediately very, very spiritual, very humbling. I immediately felt like, oof, this doesn't feel like drugs. I don't feel like I've taken any drugs. I feel like I've had this very deep conversation with a wisdom, with a.

Being.

That is helping me to remember who I am, right? That I am nature, that I'm a part of this bigger, bigger consciousness. So that, because I think really because of that first experience and how it was able to land right within this supportive system as well, really helped me to shape that journey along the way. So throughout the years, people started coming to me very organically already from a young age to have their first experience. And this was before I was aware of any of the terms like set and setting and preparation and integration and all these things. But it just came very naturally, right? And first I started studying cinematography at the Film Academy of Amsterdam because I felt like if I want to help expand human consciousness, film can be a wonderful way to do this. That was one of the first things that I felt like, ah, if I want to do something with my work, with my. With my life, with my purpose, it would be helping the expansion of human consciousness, right? And that was interesting because I was already on this path of the mushrooms. And then I felt like, I don't know, I don't even think that I was aware. Well, I actually. I know I was definitely not aware that that ever could become a profession, right? That that could ever be something I could do as a career. I mean, this was way before any that's happening now with the psychedelic renaissance. So film and cinematography felt like a great medium, you know, to be able to plant seeds with people as well. And so I followed that path for. For 10 to 15 years. And I've been able to make some wonderful work, one of them being a documentary in Syria during the war, which left me. Yes. Which left me with ptsd, like a very classic war trauma. And so throughout that work and throughout several events in my life, I experienced what it meant to go into these phases of darkness and come out of it, transform, to heal, to heal myself, through food, through the help of therapists, coaches, natural medicine, psychedelics. And then at a certain moment, I had to ask myself the question, if I had to choose one thing in my life, what would it be? And the answer was very clear. It was mushrooms, the magic mushrooms. Because that's just something that is so dear to my heart. I wouldn't want to live without it, if I have to be honest.

Right.

So that's the moment that I.

Seems like it really resonated for you from a young age. Just really did tool for you.

It really, it really did. So then when I took off that. That coat of being a filmmaker and I really stepped into the. Onto my path actually, with the mushrooms, everything just started flowing naturally.

Right.

It's so interesting when. When you, when you make a move, when you make a choice, and all of a sudden everything in your life flows towards you instead of you having to make those steps constantly outward. Something feels like it's clicking, right? Something feels like, ah, there's an effortlessness here that feels like it's meant to be. It's right?

Yes.

Yeah. Beautiful. Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. And it, and it makes so much sense and what beautiful work you do. I mean, one of the things that, like you were saying, set and setting when you come into the group ceremony that you create, you know, first of all, it's in this beautiful setting, you know, oftentimes near. In nature or near nature. Right. So it's not in the city where we were doing this. This experience. It was. We went from Amsterdam out into kind of the countryside. So you're in natural setting, you already connecting with nature, and then you're indoors. But even indoors, you create such a beautiful setting. And it's comfy. Like, you have a nice little cushion and beautiful blankets. And, you know, you're. It's like you're. When you go into a. So people can visualize, like, what is this like, right. We're going into this beautiful space. It's not like a white walls and bright lights. It's like we're in natural colors and you're sitting on. You have these cushions on the floor, kind of in a circular pattern, and you have what you need. Like some people like to use headphones or eye masks or you have pillows, blankets. So you're going to be comfy. And, and psilocybin is served to everyone at the same time as like a tea. It reminded me as you're drinking your tea there, it's like, you know, where you. You do the, the lemon tech method, I believe, using lemon into this. And then you mix the psilocybin powder and drink it as a tea. Maybe tell us a little more like from. That's from me starting to describe this experience, but I would love them to hear from you. What is that? What is. What would they Expect as they walk into.

Yeah, well, it's really nice actually that you remind me of this, this setting. And of course, I spent so much time in this setting and what, what I really found as a nice surprise in my current studies and studies, psychedelics, current research. And there's been so much research done at the moment, it's like three to four papers being published, um, which is an enormous amount. And one of them, you'll have to forgive me for not being able to quote the. The, the publishers right now, but research has shown that a white clinical setting like you just, just described is actually far less beneficial than the setting that feels like somebody's living room.

Right.

Or, or like a, a homey, nice, comfy situation place with nice dim lighting, warm colors, candlelights, live music. And for me, this really, this kind of setting really brings us back, I feel, to ancient times, to something that we remember in our DNA of how we would used to come together as people, as human beings coming together in a circle to come to share, to come to feel, to come to express, to come to share stories.

Right.

That's how we used to come together around the fire for ages.

Right.

So I feel that in that kind of a setting, to be able to do a journey with psychedelics in that setup is a big part of the. The memory that can sort of resurface.

Absolutely, absolutely. And, and you mentioned the music and I really want to come to that because now were you a musician, like, you must have become a musician through that, through the years, because the music that you play is really amazing.

Thank you so much. And that's exactly how it went. I wasn't a musician before I started this work and I have slowly, all of a sudden become a musician because of the work. And it's really also I have to give praise to the very talented musicians that I've worked together with throughout the years that I've been able to sit next to and learn from and listen to and find my own voice through. Right through resonating and singing with them, singing with these wonderful women and been so fortunate to, with one of them, produce and record an album which will be releasing in July, which is very exciting. Very exciting. Yes. Yeah. And this is.

Would definitely want to share about that too. So anyone could just search for you and your music on YouTube. You can find it. And it's. It's so beautiful because, I mean, even aside from psychedelics, aside from psilocybin, you can listen to this music anytime and it's so healing in itself. That's the thing is this, where music becomes healing, and it. And it's like it just supports you and lifts you, guides you itself. And. And the. The way that you've been able to figure out exactly which song, which part of the ceremony. Like, I remember in the ceremony that I joined you for that I would have these moments where I'm like, how are they playing exactly the right song at the right time? It's like the message of the song is exactly what I was needing. And so that does take, like, a lot of, like you're saying, like, going through it enough times and learning from others and. And finding, hey, this is the song we're gonna play at this moment, and this is the song we're gonna play next. And. And it just really guides the. It influences the medicine fully.

Fully, fully. And for me, live music in that regard is a very important part of the work that I share. For me, that's. That's got everything to do with resonance as well, right? It's vibration. And for me, this work is really about getting out of the head back into the body and working together with the medicine and the music and the space, the people that are there. So we all get to be able to tune into this frequency, right? Where you feel safe and held and can be guided by. By the. By the music and the medicine together. And so the body really is this resonance chamber itself, right? When I put hand on my. On my chest and I speak or I make a sound, I can feel the vibrations, right? I can feel the vibrations in my chest. So that means that when I play my. My music live for you, the vibrations of the strings of my guitar, of the sounds of my flute, can enter your body and help the things that are stuck inside of you vibrate loose.

Right?

And we all know how emotions can get stuck into the body, right?

Yes, they do. But that's the thing, right? This, and this is so much of the research I was doing for. For decades. This, as you see, over my shoulder, master stressories at your health. It's how the. The stress and the trauma that we're exposed to as humans, because we. We know we all have stress every day, let alone, as you've mentioned, you know, ptsd, and. And there's a very high percentage of people who have adverse childhood events or. Or, you know, that. So this trauma comes from. From childhood and even. Even before that, right? Transgenerational trauma.

Yes.

And so it's. And then there's the work where we talk about, you know, the body keeps the score, right? That the trauma is in our. In our cells, in our bodies, and so much beautiful work that can be done. You mentioned therapy. There. There are so many forms of therapy, including somatic therapy and all of these amazing tools, and they can help us as humans to recover from stress. And that's what led me to start researching psychedelics, was I was researching what are all the ways that I can help people to recover from stress and trauma. And it, of course, led me to this research on psychedelics like this. You can't be thinking about recovery from stress and trauma without coming across the research on psychedelic medicines. And it does, like you said, it opens your mind because we were taught for so many years, especially in the United States, that these are drugs. And yes, even now, still, they're. There's most states their Schedule 1 substances and were. With this renaissance, with this, with this time that we're in right now, where there's increased awareness and increased research, I believe, and I hope that it shifts in the United States where there is more access, because it. It really can be so healing. Of course, like with any substance, we have to be mindful. Right. We don't want to. With anything. We could, we could. There can be too much or too little, and it's, of course, use it in a. Of course way. And I, and I also. Maybe we touch on that a minute. I mean, like in the, in the training that I've been a part of, we, you know, there's so much of understanding, you know, like, what are contraindications? What are. What do we do to maintain the safety in a ceremony? You know, and what, you know, because I think that's people's fear, right? Their fear.

Yes.

What if. What if something, you know, what if it isn't pleasant? What if it isn't. What if it is challenging? Right. So maybe. Yeah. Share a little bit about insights on that.

Yeah, you shared a couple of very important things right there. And there are, of course, contraindications. Right. And it's very important that you first have that very rigorous preparation process which also, for me and for. If you're a member of the Guild of Guides, you have a code of conduct. And a part of that is that that your clients first need to do a medical screener. And that can also contain a questionnaire. And in that medical screener, the contraindications are included. Right. So then you already know, well, if somebody checks for any of these contraindications, then at this time in their lives, we cannot do this work together.

Right.

And so I think that's very important, of course, always to get that out of the way first. For me personally, I only want to do this work with anyone only if I feel 100% sure about doing this work with them.

Right.

And that goes both ways. So it goes about the trust as well, and about knowing as, as a psychedelic practitioner, simple terms and concepts as transference and countertransference, and to have the knowledge of what it means to be in such a psychedelic state and what that can also imply for that a client might start looking at you differently.

Right.

Throughout the work, throughout the journey, and to never take any of that personally.

Right.

So there's a lot of work that as a practitioner, you need to be doing yourself as well. And a part of that is self care also.

Right.

So because the work can be quite challenging and it can be demanding and, and the experience can be quite long as well. So for the day itself, you need to be focused and present for a long time. You need to be able to catch and sit with whatever arises. And sometimes that can be quite intense. Some people can have many different effects, bodily effects as well.

Right.

So I just the other day gave a talk on psychedelic harm reduction and how you can make sure that if you feel called to do this work that you already tick a couple of boxes, right. Just by how you make the choice to choose a therapist, to choose a practitioner, to choose a guide.

Right.

What are green flags, what are red flags, what to look out for in that regard. That's also why we have found it. I haven't found it, but why they have founded the Guild of Guides in the Netherlands. That's a professional association for practitioners here in the Netherlands that work with silicon psilocybin and that. So a client or a potential client can visit our website and see. Oh, wait, these people are a part. Are. They are a member of the guild. That means that they stand for a certain quality of work. That means that they work with this code of ethics, this code of conduct and these principles. So, so there's a lot already that, that you can take care of in that regard to, to help you. Right, with. With making your choices. And then you talked also about. Yeah, but what if the challenges, the experience is still challenging. Well, I hope for you that a part of it will be, because that is usually where the biggest transformation is when we look at our lives, just our lives in general, and you see what challenge has brought you, right. When we push ourselves. Also, when you go to the gym, you find the most benefit in pain. I have to say I am healing when my muscles hurt.

Right?

Yes. It's like we have to go a little outside of that comfort zone in order for change.

Yes, yes, we really do. And then we can come back to how beneficial it can be to do this work, actually with a guide.

Right.

With a psychedelic practitioner next to you with you along the journey, because they can help you move towards those places of discomfort in a safe way.

Right.

In a safe and guided way. So that there is no re. Traumatizing occurring, for instance.

Right.

So that you feel safe when you're moving towards your fear, even though it's scary.

Right.

I love to emphasize this is a journey, it's an adventure.

Right.

It's an adventure. And an adventure can be. Can be scary, but it can be joyous as well. It has this sense of curiosity, like a childlike curiosity that I sometimes like to emphasize. You know, when a child enters a space and there's all these boxes, all these closed boxes, what does the child do? They go to the boxes and they open them.

Right.

Without thinking if what's going to be inside those boxes? Oh, and it might be scary. And is something in there that's going to attack me? No, it's just curiosity.

Right.

So that is the same kind of childlike curiosity that I like to invite people into when doing this work. First of all, you get the contraindications out of the way. That means that two. Two factors are present, which is one, you are safe, and two, this is temporary.

Right.

Those for me are the most important pillars. You are safe mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually. That's a big one as well. You are safe and this is temporary.

Right.

And that can be a really nice one for people to be reminded of sometimes during the work, even because it can help them release the deeper. It can help them maybe give another yes to whatever arises.

Right.

So this work really is about. It's not about controlling.

Right.

Or steering. It's about saying yes to whatever arises. And it's easier to say yes when you know that whatever you're saying yes to is temporary.

That's so true. Temporary. Amina, is anyone who might be wondering the. The experience might be what, five, six, seven hours?

I always say between four and six, because I lemon text. So that shortens the journey a little bit, but it can intensify it.

It. Yeah, four to six, so. And then you're kind of ramping up and. And you know, and then safely being able to leave the space as the medicine wears off or have someone to drive you.

I've done A lot of detoxes over the years and many of them made me feel a lot worse. Not only that, but I've had a lot of patients come in and tell me how after doing a detox they.

Have a stomachache and headache and they.

Can'T sleep and they're feeling anxious and.

I'm like, I can't just recommend that.

My patients do a program that's gonna make them feel worse. So I finally decided to design my own detox program. It's a 14 day detox program that's not like other detox programs out there in several ways. One is that I'm focused on helping you to get the toxins out in a safe and effective way using nutrients, antioxidants and supporting our natural detoxification pathways in the body. Also, I'm helping you to decrease your exposure to toxins by learning the ways that you've been exposed to toxins and.

How to change your day to day.

Lifestyle to decrease your toxins over time. And I'm helping you to look not just at chemical environmental toxins, but also emotional and energetic toxicity. And yes, it's possible to accomplish all of this in 14 days. I have so many patients who have done the 14 day detox and report back to me how much better they feel. And I think it's also because I help you to know what to eat. You are getting adequate food that tastes good, plus protein shakes that I developed that are good for your body, that your body knows how to use these nutrients and take them in and use them to help you safely detoxify without feeling worse. Also I help you to balance your blood sugar level, get better sleep and introduce things like meditation, biofeedback and other types of stress recovery into your day to day routine. So I just am so excited about it. I want to make sure you know about this 14 day detox. I'm going to put the link, you can find it at drdani.com forward/detox-program but.

I'll also also put the link below.

So you can find the 14 day detox program at Dr. Donnie.com I look.

Forward to guiding you through this detox.

So that you can actually feel better on your way to better health.

And, and so it's like, yes, this, this temporality of it is so important because in the moment you might be like, oh my gosh, is this, is this going to be like this forever?

Exactly.

So you being able to remind yourself and say, I know I'm in an experience, it's going to Be a. You know, however long it's been so far, it's going to be a couple more hours and it's going to come usually in waves. And it's gonna.

Yes.

Gonna go to an intensity and then it's gonna come down. And so you kind of know the path, you know, the. So this way, whatever comes up, you know, like, okay, this is just in this moment. It's not going to be forever. I love that you.

Yes.

Emphasizing that. I do think that that Helps. Helps has helped me through experiences as well as breath work. And we mentioned the music already. But, you know, I think that experience with. My experience with meditation also really helps me with a psychedelic journey. Do you find that to be true?

For sure. And that's also why we open. Open the sacred space or we open the session with a guided meditation, which is a very like visually guided meditation. So I really like to take people with a visual. Yeah. Visual guide into the body, really. To land into the body, to feel into the body, to try and feel your blood pumping, to feel the beat of your heart, to make that all very tangible and to land in that and to start like that so that there's something that people can come back to. And the breath is a big part of that.

Right.

The breath is such a beautiful companion, such a beautiful guide. And sometimes just something as simply as putting a hand on the heart, space in a hand on the lower belly and just breathing from one hand into the other can really transform the moment that people are in. And I felt. I experienced also in. In guiding people through severe anxiety that could come up in the journey.

Right.

Like an actual anxiety attack. Just the simple tool of breathing and humming, also humming together and bringing in that vibration. It calms the nervous vagus.

Right?

Yeah.

So very quickly, very quickly, the anxiety attack can calm down.

It's so true. And we can. I'm always teaching people to use that anytime, any day. Right. The breath and the humming and the. It does the vagus nerve then just goes right into the calming part of the nervous system. And so it can shift that fight or flight light into calmness where we can do the healing. And I'm. I wanted to ask you because I know you're also trained as a death doula.

Yes.

And I know there's so much research about how psychedelic medicines and including psilocybin can be helpful for people who are in the dying process. So I wanted to just, you know, talk about that a little bit because that is so much of the research is into ptsd, anxiety and Depression. And then there's a lot of research into death and dying and, and kind of end of life support. And I'd love to hear more about what you've found with that.

Yeah. So thank you for pointing that out, because death is a friend I hold so dear. And that might sound so strange to so many people.

Right.

But for me, death has really so far been my, my greatest teacher. And, and I say that also honoring and, and, and seeing how mushrooms are death in a way.

Right.

When we look into the forest and we see what the function is of, of the mushrooms in the forest, they, they eat the decaying material, right. They transform the decaying material. So when I sit with people who are in the last phases of their lives, and I'm now remembering moments in the hospice that I volunteered at, they feel very similar to the work that I do when I'm guiding people in psilocybin sessions.

Right.

Apart from that, people on a psychedelic journey can actually have the feeling that they are passing over.

Right.

That they are letting go of their body and they're dying, which is not that common. Don't expect this to be common to all your listeners. Don't expect this to be common, but it can happen. So. And in regards to helping people who are in that phase, that last phase of their lives with something like psilocybin, it can really help with the anxiety, it can help with the fear, it can help with this sense of feeling that letting go of the body isn't the end.

Right.

Because. And I'm always very careful with.

With.

Going into these descriptions of what it can be like, because then expectations, right, can arise for others. So I'm always careful with, with bringing in those kind of descriptions. But what it does for me is, helps me to remember that dying is like going home.

Right?

Yeah, yeah. Coming back to ourselves. And it's, it's, you know, so much of what, what I, as we've been talking, it is that from the beginning, these, these substances, these medicines have this ability of bringing us back to ourself, our center, our being. And you mentioned the spirituality of it.

Right?

Of this, who am I? What is my purpose here in this life experience? And, and what is my relationship with, with the, with the world around us with this experience. And, and we talked about how, you know, we can use things that help us reconnect with our body, like the breath, work, the, the, the brute, you know, hands on our body, the, you know, so this medicine can help us reconnect with our human body, but it can also Help us to reconnect with. Beyond the human body.

Yes. And I think that that is where the fear lies for. For many people is that death means the letting go of the body.

Right.

And we're so used to identifying who we are with our bodies, with our faces, with our voices, with the experienced experiences this body has experienced.

Right.

What are we without that? And, and what I think can be very helpful for people to maybe step into a little bit is that when we shed our body, it means that the energy. And that has been researched as well. The energy. There's an energy that resides in the body that. That doesn't die, right. That is. That. That is still there. There's. There's this wonderful movie that's one once been made about it. It's called 21 grams. They say that it's actually, you can weigh it. It's 21 grams that. That is left. And that's the. That's the. The weight of the soul. But yeah, I just love that concept. It's a theory, right? But so when we leave the body, we become part again of the bigger consciousness. And that means that our. Our biggest. Where I think where our. Our biggest grief lies in life is that we feel separation, right? And a lot of the. I think a lot of our sickness as well, our emotional sickness, our physical sickness comes from this feeling of being alone. Comes from this feeling of not belonging, of having this feeling of not belonging.

Right.

One of the biggest themes around our happiness is a feeling, a sense of belonging, right? And so our body separates us. It separates us from. From the bigger consciousness. And when you realize that when you. When it's your time, when you can let go of the body, you'll go home, there will be no separation anymore. It's the most beautiful thing that is.

That is the. Your words are so soothing too, the way you describe it. And it's what. Sometimes what's also interesting is that psychedelic substances can help people who are suicidal.

Yes.

Yes. Yeah.

Yes, it can.

Yeah.

And it can. To help them remember that they actually want to be alive. And it can also help them to feel like, this is a step that I'm going to take. This is my time, right? And it's. These are. These are very, very complex conversations, right? These are very complex discussions. And we know so little yet about psychedelics, about life in general, of course, and about the mind and the body and. And what I find very interesting from the studies that I'm doing at the moment is how psychedelics really make us think again about the mind. Body problem.

Right.

About consciousness. And that is also what they're now seeing is that how current research into psychedelics is being done is still based on the foundations of the research of psychology, which is that, that, that is not one on one sort of adoptable towards research in psychedelics. It's, it's too narrow, it's too limiting. So I think what psychedelics is teaching us is that we need to keep having an open mind constantly. Constantly.

Right.

And even if we feel like, ah, I found sort of a golden nugget here.

Right.

This must be the answer. Always be open for, for that golden nugget to grow into something else again.

Yeah, it's so, it's so true in that where whatever is happening for you in this moment in your life, the psychedelic helps guide you through it. Right. So if it is a person who's maybe lost a sense of themselves and the loss of their purpose and, and then that usually can put us into a sense of low mood or depression, whether that's someone who's end of life or in the middle of their life.

Right.

They're like, what is my, who am I? What am I doing here? And, and so if we can have a substance that helps us reconnect with ourselves, you know, who really am I and what, what, you know, what do I authentically connect with and resonate with, in, with my, in my life right now? And yes, and so that means that it can really, the medicine is actually guiding us, you know, to. Because we get, I think we get so impacted by what someone else says we should be doing. You know, what TV society says that.

We should be doing. Yes. Yeah.

And so we, we, or if we're in a relationship, then we're listening to what this other person thinks we should be doing. So we, we, we lose track of what.

Yes.

We don't even know what, how to do self care or how to really.

What does that look like? Yes. Yes. Yeah. So a lot of times this work, and I, and I really think also on this time in, in, in history, for a lot of people this work is about finding or refining their authentic voice to be remembering again. Oh, you know, this is actually what I, what I feel. People usually know what they think. Usually they don't know what they feel. And, and not to be generalizing, but over the years I have seen so many clients and a lot of times it's the men who come to these sessions because they have this big longing and wish to feel like they can tap into their emotions again and they can sort of learn what it means to, to, to act out of intuition.

Right?

And that is really, it's. It's incredible to see this big sort of longing from. From the men in our world to reconnect with their emotional lives to. With their emotional being. And I think that there's a big part of the healing in the world that's happening there, Right?

Absolutely. That it's so true. There, there can be. If we think about how many people start to go through this process, what an impact it can have in that, you know, and if the more we can learn to connect with our feelings, men and women, and be able to know ourselves and trust our intuition, then, then so much profound change can happen. In fact, that's where we, you know, even the, the theories and the research on use of psychedelics back in history, right? This is not a new thing. This is, this has been around helping humans for a long time.

Yes. Well, and, and I really would like to point out there that for me personally, the big. The biggest reason for me to do this is that I hope that people can remember again that they are nature, right? And that we are. We are a part of that cycle. And that by remembering that, that people maybe take actions in their daily life that will help save this beautiful earth that we live on together. Right? And. And that it's a home, not just for humans, but for every living being and entity. And everything is living and being and sentient.

Right?

And that it's really about this relationship. And I feel that a lot of times this sort of disconnection, this feeling of not knowing who we are and what our purpose is, can be healed also from feeling that we have a purpose and a responsibility in taking care of our home.

Right?

And our home is this earth that we live on. And, and it is our body, right? And those are one and the same. We give our body back to the earth. And right now we are feeding ourselves with what we get from the. The body of the earth. So that is a cycle in itself. So what do you want to give back to the earth? Are you going to give back to the earth a body that is, that is healthy and healed?

Right.

So I feel that there we have a responsibility in that regard as well. And there can be a beautiful sense of purpose in there that is available to all of us.

And I think exactly what you're describing is why psychedelics and psilocybin in particular has been shown to be so helpful for addiction, right. That I think humans, right, we, when we don't know that when we, when we aren't aware of that cycle and that, that truth, then we're, we're, we're feel so separate and we feel so, you know, stressed by it, by the experience of being human that we're going toward addictive substances. And psilocybin is not an addictive substance.

No, no. You couldn't even get addicted to it if you wanted to because you build your resistance up too quickly. So it just wouldn't be working anymore.

Right.

I could be taking a high dose of psilocybin today, in the same dose tomorrow and tomorrow it wouldn't give me any of the effects that I would feel today. So in that regard itself, it doesn't lead itself to be addictive. And I find there's some like beautiful natural intelligence in there as well. I think we can, we can say that for all the natur. Psychedelic substances that we can find in the natural world are non addictive, right? What does that say about what the, what the earth is providing us with naturally towards the substances that are man made and that are very addictive, right? Like regular antidepressants. Like I mean so many. I mean I don't want to. I think there's a place for everything and anything, right? But I think there's very, something very interesting. There is like why are we sharing these things with people that make them dependent, right? What is that about? Like why do we create this, this, this dependency? And there's a, there's a very interesting book out that is called the Molecule of More and that is about the molecule of dopamine, right? So our whole society, everything is set up for us to have our dopamine fixes. Whether it is through our phones, which is a huge dopamine fix for everyone nowadays, right. We all know it. I'm myself very guilty of it. Or it is your coffee or it is shopping or it is we the are all these little dopamine fixes and it's the most addictive thing, right? And why is our society set up like that? Why is that? Why is everything set up to distract us from what is actually our purpose, from why we are actually here together, right? It's distracting us from seeing each other for, from feeling that we have the time and the space in our day to be there for one another.

Yeah, it's, it's so true. And when we start to see that we go oh my gosh. And you start to shift things. That's what I found for myself and I see for others is that through these experiences we start to have this awareness, we start to see more clearly who we are and how that those addictive distractions are working and trying to pull us away from ourselves and, and from nature. And we can start to make little micro decisions differently. Right. It's about. I think it's. Do you. You work with people who maybe come to you on, on a, you know, maybe several times over in order to help with their healing process and then. And you. They start to see this little micro shifts in their life. You know, it's not like it doesn't usually occur where someone makes a drastic change over after one experience.

We actually advise against that to make drastic changes immediately after the experience. Because you can be still so full, you're still integrating. Right. In those first two, three weeks afterwards, you really need to just land and just observe. Observe and write and take some time and space and definitely not make any drastic decisions in those moments. But yeah, it can be very interesting to, to go into a trajectory of some sort, depending also what. What has arisen for someone in the first journey.

Right.

So I have some clients who I will just see once in my lifetime.

Right.

And it, for them it will be like, like, I think it was a quote of Alan Watts. I've picked up the phone and I've heard the message. I don't need to pick up the phone again.

Right.

And they can, yes, they have heard the message. They can integrate it and they have. Have their, their focal point. That's not me. I like having my relationship and hearing the message time and time again. And for me, the message, message and it develops as well. Right. So for me, it's really a relationship. You can build up a relationship with these medicines. And I'm definitely for taking things slow.

Right.

With any, any lasting changes are slow changes.

It's very true.

Yeah.

And it's a whole. Then it really honors that, that honors that relationship and honors the, the shift because we, we want it to be a lasting shift. Right? That's the whole idea is to help people to not be stuck in a cycle of sometimes a diagnosis that they've been told there's nothing they can do about. And yet here substances that are completely shifting that and saying actually there is potentially something that can shift about that. And it doesn't have to be just what we hear from standard medicine or pharmaceutical companies. There, there are other options out there. And I'm so grateful for you, Nina, for your work and for how you guided me so gently and beautifully and, and I'm so glad to be able to share Your work here on the podcast episode. Is there anything else you'd like to share before we wrap up for today?

Well, I, I just really want to thank all the wisdom keepers that have walked this path before, Maria Sabina and the Mazatec, all the people that have guarded these medicines for so long while we in the west had forgotten that they existed. And yeah, just a big thank you for all the participants, all the clients that have given their, their trust to me. And it's always such an honor to be able to sit with and guide people for just a very short piece of their lives right on, on these journeys.

So I'm very grateful they remember for the rest of their lives. Life.

It is, it is, it is. Yes, yes, yes. So a lot of gratitude.

Yes. And it does. That's one of the things these medicines do, I think is bring back that sense of love and gratitude that we often lose track of in our stressful lives. So.

Yeah, so I'm, I'm really, I'm really happy to be able to share the music soon. It will be coming out in July. People will be able to listen to it on Spotify and they can find it through my name, Nina Badu. The name of the album is still a secret. It will come out soon, but people can find me also, I think, in the show notes that you will share.

Yes, definitely, definitely. I love that it's going to be on Spotify. Yes. And. And I'll put your name and your. And your website as well. So anyone who's interested in connecting with Nina, you can reach out to her and find her music and find her work. And even if you decide you'd like to go to Amsterdam area to, to have an experience with her, you can reach out to her. So thanks again so much for being with us today and I look forward to staying in touch with you. I really appreciate you.

Likewise, Donnie. Likewise. And I wish you a wonderful rest of your morning in New York.

Thank you so much. All right.

All right.

And thanks everyone for joining us us here today at How Humans Heal. Please feel free to reach out if you have questions or curiosities and Nina and I are both would be happy to answer and help you to understand more of if this is something that you have a calling to, to meet to, to and to experience. So thanks again everyone and if you haven't already subscribed, then hit. I welcome you to join me and subscribe to How Humans Heal so you don't miss the next episode. I'll see you soon. Thanks for listening to how humans heal. If you liked this episode, leave a rating and a review. And for more resources, visit drdani.com.