Ep 371: How Microbiome Health Influences Child Development with Dr. Elisa Song

So you may have heard by now that I recently opened the Australian branch of the Centre for homoeopathic education or CHE, and our next cohort starts on the 1st of February. So if you're still contemplating whether studying homeopathy with CHE is right for you, here are some things to consider. CHE has been running for 30 years with a proven track record of thousands of graduates around the world. CHE has a very wide variety of highly experienced lecturers who are also practicing homeopaths. So you'll be learning from lots of different people who walk the walk. You also get to have your study break in December and January, which aligns with our summer holidays. And you get to be part of a small cohort where we all know and support each other in a meaningful way. All of that in our Australian and New Zealand friendly time zones. So what are your study options? Option one is the foundation course. If you're not sure if a career as a homeopath is right for you, but you really want to deepen your knowledge of homeopathy, then check out our one year foundation course. You'll be watching exactly the same lectures and join in on the same tutorials and workshops as our four year part time course, but without any of the assessments. This means you'll be learning the history and philosophy of homeopathy, Materia Medica, Integrated Human Health and learning how to take a case and repertoire the symptoms so you can come to the right remedy. Imagine having this depth of knowledge in using homeopathy for you and your family. Surely this is something worth investing in for your family's health and empowerment. This course is incredibly well priced and once you're a few months in you have the option to switch to the two year full time or four year part time course. So option two is our four year part time course which is great for those who are working or raising a young family and really want to take their time integrating all of this incredible information at a steady pace. Option three is the two year fast track option. This will have you practicing as a fully qualified homeopath by December 2027. Imagine that you could be one of people really making a difference in the chronic health epidemic we are seeing today. Working anywhere in the world, online or in person at times that suit you and your lifestyle. And of course with CHE you have the flexibility of changing between the two year and four year course should your circumstances change. So if a variety of experienced lecturers at a college with a proven track record and flexible study options provided in your local time zone Appeals, then visit chehomeopathy.com and of apply for a spot in our February cohort. And if you are outside Australia and New Zealand but would still like to study with che, visit cheh homeopathy.com.

Today's guest is Dr. Eliza Song, MD, a Stanford NYU UCSF trained pediatrician and one of the foremost pioneers and trusted experts in pediatric, integrative and functional medicine. She draws on extensive research and over 25 years of clinical experience. Dr. Song recently released a book called Healthy Kids, Happy Kids, in which she explains why your child's gut microbiome holds the key to lifelong wellness. She shares her proven and practical plan for building physical and emotional resilience from the inside out. The best part about her book is that it's very practical and easy to understand and it's really one of those must haves for any parent wanting to improve their child's health. You'll find Dr. Eliza's book on Amazon and various other online booksellers and you can also find more information on her website www.healthykidshappykids.com and you can find her on Instagram @healthykidshappykids. Enjoy the episode welcome to the Homeopathy.

Hangout, where we discuss all things homeopathy from around the world.

And now my mum and your host, Eugenie Krueger. Hello everyone and welcome to the Homeopathy Hangout podcast where today we get to hang out with a lovely Dr. Eliza song. Welcome to the podcast, Eliza.

Oh, thanks so much. I'm honored to be here.

I have been following you for a little while and you've been on lots of other podcasts sharing your incredible knowledge, including the amazing Alex Stewart's Low Talks Life podcast. And I've been wanting to get you on the podcast for ages, but you had a little baby that was on the way that has been birthed called that's Right, Healthy Kids, Happy Kids. And I'm excited for us to talk about that today. But firstly, I always ask my guests, how were you first introduced to homeopathy? But in your case, you've got a medical background, so maybe just give us that whole story of how did you come to do what you're doing?

Yeah, well. And you know, really and truly, when we think about all the different healing modalities that can be used, I will say for me, living in Silicon Valley and the San Francisco Bay Area, homeopathy is one is the form of medicine that really is probably met with the most skeptical skepticism from my parents at first when they're not familiar right because it just sounds like, oh, is it placebo? Is it, you know, is it a sugar pill? And so really educating them about, you know, how homeopathy really is its own science and own medicine and that there is good evidence to it is, is really important because I've just seen such profound differences that homeopathy can make for, especially for me as a pediatrician. It's, it's so safe and gentle for babies and for children and, you know, can be so effective. And so how did I get into it? You know, when I started medical school, it actually was with this desire to be more of. Back in those days, it wasn't called integrative pediatrics, it was called alternative medicine. But I always had this passion in me, you know, starting from college when I was really looking at what I wanted to do with my life. And I know I always want to work with children, but coming from a medical home where my mom was an OB gyn, I just thought, oh, I don't, I don't think I want to do medicine. It's just, I mean, you know, the time and the stress and the effort, but knowing that I want to work with kids, I started going down a path of maybe being a teacher or, you know, being a civil rights lawyer. And, you know, the right teacher comes when you need it and when you're open to it. And it was in that moment where I was just deciding what I really, really want to do with my life, where I ran across a flyer for the American Holistic Medical Association. And as a, you know, I must have been maybe 19 at the time, I took myself to this conference not knowing what I would find, and I was totally hooked. And from that moment, I remember calling my mom and saying, you know what? I think I want to be a naturopathic physician. And it really just informed. Even though I ended up going to a very conventional medical school and very conventional pediatrics residency training, that initial eye opening conference really informed how I want to practice. And eventually I found homeopathy. And that became, you know, I took a, I remember a 40 hour course for physicians. It was with the, the American Institute of Homeopathy. And so I started dabbling in it and, you know, getting these amazing results with kids with earaches or kids with fevers and being able to really reduce the use of medications like antibiotics and. Yeah, and then I was just hooked. So it's been a part of my practice since the very beginning. Wow.

And you're also a lecturer. I saw on your website for the center for Education and Development in Clinical Homeopathy I haven't even heard of. What is that? Yeah.

So cedh, so the center for Education and Development in Clinical Homeopathy started in France and actually, you know, has very close ties with the homeopathic manufacturer Boiron. And so they started a school of homeopathy for physicians to be able to bring that into their practice. And this is. It was decades ago. And since then, CEDH has opened up branches in many different countries to teach practicing physicians how to incorporate. And instead of going, you know, back to homeopathy school, let's get in the training in a year and learn how to really use it in your practice. And so I am a teacher for the CEDH USA program. And at this point now, the CEDH USA program is the largest homeopathy CDH school in the country. But there are international conferences every other year. And I'm always. I've. I mean, I'm blown away. I remember, gosh, was the last conference. I was not able to go to the last conference in Brussels, but I did go to the one prior to that in Barcelona, and I spoke and taught, and there were physician homeopath from Tunisia and China and, you know, all over the world. So it's spreading. I mean, it was a huge conference, and it was so interesting to see how other clinicians around the country are able to incorporate homeopathy into their practices and even into their hospitals.

Wow, you've just made me realize. So that must. Is that Christophe Merville from Bourne?

Yes, yes.

Because I've had him on the podcast and I remember him saying, like, they're training, but I didn't realize that that's what it's called. So you've kind of put the puzzle pieces together.

That's right. So Kristof, I mean, so Christophe is with Boran, and so they're separate. But Boron does help, you know, sponsor many of the venues and the conferences and help support the teaching arm, which is great.

Awesome. Amazing. He was actually such a beautiful guest to interview. It was like a couple of years ago he was on the podcast and.

He'S been with me.

Yeah, he's amazing.

About 30 years or something like that. He was lovely to chat. That too. Well, anybody watching on our Rumble? I don't mention the YouTube thing anymore because they deleted my channel and I'm trying to get it back.

Oh, my gosh. Okay.

Medical misinformation. So anybody watching On Rumble, just behind Eliza, is her beautiful book, Healthy Kids, Happy Kids. And I just wonder, can you tell us A little bit about why you felt that this book was important to write. And even before you say that, I just want to put in there, it's such a good book for parents. You made it so easy to understand. I just feel like it's one of those books.

I feel there's a few books that.

When a baby is. Or actually when a mom is pregnant, there's a bunch of books that should be shoved in their hands. I feel that this is one of those books.

Oh, thank you. And, you know, I'm really. I'm honored that it took a while. My book was just published in May of 2024 and was released in, I think in October in Australia. So now it's very easy to get in Australia. So, I mean, why did I write the book? I mean, they say there's some saying that, you know, is it 80% of people say they want to write a book, and then really, when it comes down to it, only about 3% actually write the book. And, you know, it is definitely a labor of love. It is the most intense pregnancy and birthing process I've ever, ever gone through. I mean, it makes having Kenzie and Bode look like a piece of cake. And so. But I am just so. I'm so proud to have this book out. And why did I write it? I wrote it because after 20 years of doing this and having still every day parents calling the office, asking, is there any, you know, holistic pediatrician near me? You know, can I come to see you? Is there anyone who can help my child? And, I mean, my practice has been closed for years now. I just. As a solo practitioner, I just don't have the time to see more patients if I actually want to go home and have dinner with my kids, you know, but at the same time, I really.

It was.

It's so important to make sure this information gets out to not just parents, but also practitioners. I mean, one of the most inspirational things for me is when a fellow pediatrician writes to me and says, you know, I read your book, and, you know, my eyes are so open now, and I can't believe I didn't know this, but now I'm gonna start to get more training so that I can help patients in a different way. And so it was really to get all of my. I mean, literally the 20 years of me doing this, every single thing that I've learned through research and clinical practice to get it out there on paper so that parents and children can have it in a really easily accessible way. I mean, I I really, it's so important for me to make things practical and memorable and fun, but also have the research there so that parents trust that there is science behind what I'm writing about and recommending. And also to get more practitioners on board, more medical students, more doctors, more nurses to say, oh, this actually is something that we should know about, especially given the crisis of chronic disease that our kids are facing.

Absolutely. And it's going to be hard for things to change unless physicians learn this sort of stuff in their training. It's so important. But something that you are really good at is the research. And whenever I listen to interviews of you, you're always quoting research wherever you go and you find the most interesting research and obviously in the book as well, you know, quoting a lot. One of them that really blew my mind, he was saying about the Scottish physician that tested the microbiome like 100 years ago, which is actually interesting because you obviously know the homeopathic bowel nozzos from, you know, Bach and Patterson. And was that you were talking about, by the way? That wasn't the guy.

No, no, this was. Oh, gosh, what is his name?

100 years ago.

Yeah.

And just our, our microbiome looking so different then to now. Do you maybe want to talk a little bit about that? Because I found that really interesting.

Yeah, well, you know, for the listeners, I mean, many listeners know that especially for children, the health and development of their gut microbiomes really informs how their immune systems shape Heather. Brains develop, how their hormones and metabolic health is shaped. And it really starts with the microbiome that infants develop from birth. And we know that one of the factors that underscores a lot of the immune imbalance that we're seeing and the brain imbalance that we're seeing in infants and toddlers and young kids is in large part due to the loss of a specific bacterial species called bifidobacteria. Right. That's one of our beneficial probiotic species. And there are many, many different strains of bifidobacteria. And so this Scottish pathologist a hundred years ago looked at baby poop and they compared the microbiomes of exclusively breastfed infants compared to formula fed infants. Now, formula at the time, I have no idea what it looked like at the time, but there was infant formula at the time. And what he found was that breastfed babies had almost completely 100% bifidobacteria probiotics in their gut as opposed to the formula fed babies who had more variety. So they did have bifidobacteria but they had a greater diversity of microbes. And in infants, that greater diversity is actually not beneficial, unlike in adults, where we want a lot of diversity. Now, fast forward 100 years now in the current day, and the microbiome of our exclusively breastfed babies looks much more like the microbiome of the formula fed babies a hundred years ago. So this is where we see, you know, I have parents and moms who come to me and their babies have eczema or maybe asthma or they're developing signs of ADHD and they're saying, oh my gosh. But I mean, I was ate so cleanly during my pregnancy. I had a natural delivery, vaginally birth, breastfed. I mean, all the quote right things. And yet we still see kids tipping over into chronic health concerns. And, you know, I think that really stems from in our modern world, our microbiomes are just different and we need to do what we can to support and nourish really balanced and resilient microbiomes.

I think sometimes for me, as a, as a practitioner, because I'm homeopathically trained, I did a little bit of naturopathic training. I've been in practice since 2012. And what I'm finding more is how important it is for homeopaths to actually understand more of this naturopathic type of stuff. And since I've been doing a bigger scan, I'm learning more about this and realizing there's so much more to learn. I mean, I'm sure you're the same way. We never actually stopped learning. But something that a couple of years ago, all this stuff was starting to come out about people who had recent medical interventions because I don't want my, my newly created trying to upload my 300 videos to again to get removed again. There was some people that had their gut microbiome tested before the intervention and then days after the intervention. And they found that during that time their bifidobacteria went from X amount of bacteria to zero amount of bacteria, which was really, really scary. And then I ordered the homeopathic remedy made from bifidobacteria in like a low, like a 12C potency from a pharmacy to start experimenting with that a little bit because how would you even go about building that back up? And yeah, maybe I'll just start with that one. Like if you've had antibiotics or your gut microbiome has been compromised in some way, what would you say to parents to try and. Yeah, get that back up?

Yeah, that is fascinating to Think about low dilution of bifidobacteria. That is fascinating. I hadn't thought about that. But you know, there are ways that we can support bifidobacteria, even apart from taking, I mean, there are, you know, many, many different probiotic supplements on the market. Many. And some of them are better than others. But you are, you will be able to find probiotics with multiple Bifidobacteria strains. And that, that is important because even within the Bifidobacteria genus, there's many, many different species and many different substrains. Now, one of the best ways to feed Bifidobacteria, to have Bifidobacteria colonize, is to feed them. And one of the most fascinating ways now that we're finding good results, is feeding them with something called human milk oligosaccharides. The fascinating thing with breast milk is that breast milk is chock full of a specific prebiotic called HMOs. Human milk oligosaccharides that only feed bifidobacteria. It just shows you how important evolutionarily bifidobacteria was because our breast milk was designed to feed this bifidobacteria. And so now you can find commercially prepared manufactured HMOs. You're not drinking someone else's breast milk, but you're getting this HMO product that then has been shown, you know, to really help colonize and increase your bifidobacteria levels. And I think that is one of the best ways. You know, yes, you can take a probiotic supplement, but probiotics are only going to colonize if they have the food and the environment to really nourish them and nurture them. I mean, it's just like thinking about growing a tomato plant. You can't just sprinkle tomato seeds on the ground and just leave and walk away. You need to nourish the soil and get the right water and the right sunlight. And so same thing with our microbiome. We have to think about it as an ecosystem that needs to be nourished and nurtured. And how do we protect our ecosystem? And first, that's with fueling it with all of the things that are required for healthy bacteria to grow. And then the other part is really keeping away the factors that will disrupt your microbiome. So I mean, we already mentioned medications like antibiotics, but there's antacid medications, there's ibuprofen, which is a non steroidal medication that's used for Pain and fever and our ultra processed food, I mean our highly processed food additives, food colors, artificial food dyes, artificial sweeteners, too much added sugars, non organic foods that are sprayed with glyphosate, all of those wreak havoc on our microbiome. So learning how to live a microbiome friendly lifestyle, I mean in my book I call it, you know, we need to learn how to live like gut heroes and create that microbiome magic every day with the decisions that we make. And it's not a difficult process, it's just understanding what steps to take and making sure that we really take those steps.

You know, my homeopathic brain is just going, going, thinking I need to find these human milk oligosaccharides in a low potency and combine them with a bifidobacterial. Yeah, I'll give you that decision.

That would be, that would be amazing.

I really do love that like that we've got the power with homeopathy that we can, you know, use these, all these variety of different remedies alongside supplements. Like Ton Janssen really likes to do the homeopathic remedy alongside the supplement to increase the absorption. Because sometimes the remedy is not enough by itself and sometimes if you have supplement absorption issues, then it's tricky taking the supplement. So that's why, I mean, yeah, I've.

Had such great experiences with, you know, for instance, a lot. I mean, zinc is one of the most common nutrient deficiencies in children. And we know with zinc deficiencies there are lots of sensory issues. You know, auditory cover the ears, the bathroom fan or the flush is too loud or you can't, you know, vacuum or do the blender in the house or maybe jeans or pants. Clothes feel funny, tags on the shirt bother you, certain smells. And so that's a big tip off for me that your child needs more zinc. Right. And so whether zinc through food or zinc supplementation, if your kids have eczema, poor skin healing also is another sign of needing zinc. And when you check kids blood levels, oftentimes their zinc levels are quite low. And we'll start a zinc supplement, but it's not enough to move the needle sometimes to bump up their zinc. So then you give the zinc and you add homeopathic zinc and metallicum and you get phenomenal results. And sometimes the zinc and metallicum alone is enough to really resolve those sensory issues. You know, the sound, the touch, the smell and all of that. So I think there's such a great synergy when we can find the right combinations I mean, same thing with iron. I've done that with iron supplementations and ferrum. And, you know, it's opens a lot of, I think, windows and opportunities to really help heal our kids.

I love zinc is such a big one. I've been doing oligo scans for about a year or so, and I've done about 300 scans, and I consistently see low zinc. It's just like everyone. Yeah, it's true. But then what really clicked in for me is I didn't realize that zinc is so important to create good stomach acid. And so you get these kitties with low zinc that then have low stomach acid that then become really picky eaters because intuitively, you know, they don't want to eat a lot of food. And so, yeah, this feels like everything is such a mess. It's so hard.

I know. And then, you know, zinc is also, I mean, zinc is so important for stabilizing mast cells. And so when there's histamine and allergic responses, which are increasingly common as well. So I just, I mean, I love zinc. I mean, as far as minerals go and supplementation goes, I mean, zinc, I probably see some of the most remarkable changes. I had this one mom whose child was, I mean, literally eating maybe four different foods, and she heard me on another podcast talking about zinc and picky eating and senso, you know, aversion and, you know, feeding aversions. And then I also started, I mentioned all the other signs of zinc deficiency, you know, the other sensory issues, maybe getting sick more frequently, itchy skin or eczema skin. And she was checking off the boxes saying, oh, my gosh, that this describes my child. And so she started a zinc supplement. And she said literally within one month, just one month of taking the zinc supplement, her child had tried, tried maybe five different foods and was starting to expand her diet. So, I mean, it. It can make a really. It can be that quick. And of course, with homeopathy, sometimes we see even quicker, right? I mean, sometimes that's like immediate.

Right? Well, also the flip side, because I'm just thinking of all before I knew about this link with the zinc and the low stomach acid. You know, I was classically trained, but that very quickly changed in the last few years since the podcast. But I'll try and treat this child classically for, like, picky eating, and nothing would work. And I think that is, as homeopaths, we need to know the physiological reasons behind why. And they just like, I don't think that one constitutional remedy is going to fix it. When their stomach acid's low, you need to give them a zinc supplement. And that's where sometimes our training has got a bit of a gap in it. I think these days, maybe, you know, even 10, 20, 50 years ago, maybe that constitutional remedy might have been enough. But I feel like these days there's so much onslaught from all directions that.

We need to kind of use this.

Integrative approach way we technically, I mean.

It makes sense because as we're thinking about what's happening, you know, on a cellular level and really energetically, not in like a woo woo sense, but really, I mean, we can see these changes. And if your bloodstream and your cells are just really kind of mucked up with toxins and debris, it's similar to acupuncture. That really works on those lines of energy. For me, you get better results, I truly believe, when we can do a little cleanup first. You know, if you have a child with so many food sensitivities and they're really inflamed, sometimes we need to do a little gentle detox first or remove gluten. And then all of a sudden the remedies that you've tried, they start working better, or acupuncture starts working, you know, even better. So I think that is one of the reasons for me that I think that these modalities tend to work better with children than in adults, because adults just have more long standing sort of toxicity and sludge. So it makes it harder to move.

Absolutely. Something else, as I'm learning more, like I said to you, before we start, I've got a few, like, personal questions I want to ask you of things that I'm stuck in my clinic. But one of them is, you know, with leaky gut and biofilms and parasites and yeast and mold and all these things, things. Where do we start, like, as clinicians, where do we start healing these things? Because it feels like these days everything I'm seeing is all about parasites and all about.

Yeah, it's true.

Like, where do you even start?

Yeah, I mean, it's true. I mean, there's like the latest thing, right? I mean, years ago when I was starting my practice, it was all about Candida, right? And it is true. Now it seems it's all about. It was mold and parasites. And so, you know, which are these? Well, one of my. My main focus is first, before I start doing any of the more aggressive treatments, is you have to build up the foundations. Because I'll see some kids who, or parents for that matter, who see practitioners and you know, they've gone straight to the killing. I mean, let's take Sibo for instance, right? Just straight to the antimicrobials, whether they're herbal or prescription. And when you're in that depleted state, it just makes you react more and makes you feel worse and doesn't always lead to healing. And so my approach is always build up first and then there's less to kill. Right. Because your own body is starting to do what it's meant to do to reach a better, healthier equilibrium. And then we go for the parasite cleanse or the yeast cleanse or the biofilm busting or the mold detoxification or whatever it is. It seems so simplistic for families. But I mean, you have to get down to the basics of how we're living and eating and thinking every single day. And that means, yeah, no, you can't have a Starbucks Frappuccino every day. And you know, and think that healing is going to be easy. And yes, we do have to prioritize restorative sleep and movement and hydration if we want to have an easier time to healing. So getting those foundations set, replacing nutrient deficiencies and then working on the other pieces that need to be sorted out.

I wish I could make my clients understand the importance of sleep.

Yes.

I mean, it just doesn't get prioritized. And especially for children, like I always ask about, you know, that people bring their clients will bring their children in for behavioral disorders and all sorts. And I'll ask what time the child goes to bed. And they're like, oh yeah, about 9 or 9:30. And it's like a 7 year old. And I'm like, my 13 year old's asleep by 8:30.

Me too.

I just wish people could understand the importance. And so many clients will complain about things being like supplements being expensive. It's hard to do this or that going to bed early is something that you can do free of charge.

That's right. That's right. And you know, really when you look at the data behind, you know, sleep, I mean, it is quite alarming. I mean, when you look at the brains of teenagers who aren't getting adequate sleep and you know, in some studies, teenage, the teenage brain really needs at a minimum of nine, nine and a half hours of sleep. Most of our teenagers are getting six to seven hours of sleep, maybe less if they're up all night on their screens, you know, texting or playing games. And that lack of sleep will start to show up in shrinkages in parts of your Brain. Now that's scary, right? The same thing with ultra processed food. A steady diet of ultra processed food in children has been shown to, to shrink parts of their gray matter. And even, you know, everyone's seen a model of a brain with all the folds, the folds start to smooth out and so, you know, that can be reversed. But you have to understand this, this synergistic effect when we're on our screens, I'm talking about our kids, you know, and most kids who increase screen time has been correlated with increased junk food consumption. Cause you're just mindlessly sitting there, you know, eating snacky food. And so those ultra processed foods and the screen time can affect the brain and the microbiome, which that has long term impacts on their behaviors, their immune health, their hormone health. I mean, these lifestyle factors, you know, as I mentioned before, they're simple, but sometimes the simplest things are the hardest things to implement because they're things that we actually have to do consistently instead of just popping a pill. So, you know, if you could bottle up the benefit, the health benefits of sleep and exercise in a pill, I mean, you would have your magic pill right there. I mean, that would be, you know, the cure for so many ailments. But we have to put in the work. And I think as parents especially, you know, I used to do this, I no longer do this. I mean, sleep is absolutely a priority for me. And I was only half joking because oftentimes I am asleep at 8:30 and my kids now are kissing me good night because there's no way I can stay, stay awake. But there was a time that I, like many, many moms do, you know, once the kids are asleep, you feel like this is my time. The end of the day it's quiet and you feel like, okay, this is my time to have a glass of wine, sit on the couch, mindlessly watch whatever show you're watching, or scroll through your Instagram feed. And I would, before I would know it, I mean, the kids would be asleep at 8:30 and then all of a sudden it'12 or later. But I was determined to do that because it was my time, you know, and now I. You have to flip that script. Because sleep is also your time. In fact, sleep is when your brain is in a sense, almost more metabolically active than when you're awake. And it's in your sleep that your brain lays down memories. It's in your sleep that your brain actually shrinks by almost 60% scent to have be bathed by something called the glymphatic system to detoxify and clear out whatever toxins it was exposed to during the day. So really looking at sleep as. Yeah, that sleep is me time, you know, can change so much. I mean, since I've committed to, you know, sleeping on the nights that I can, which is most nights, you know, at. By 9, maybe 9:30 at the late latest, the changes in my mental clarity and my mood and, you know, efficiency are remarkable. And I want that for everyone. I want that for every mom.

I would have to say I only treat women and children and that's the story of every single mom in my clinic with a young child. Exactly what you've said. That nighttime, it's me time. It's binge watching, Netflix scrolling and wine and exactly what you've said. Flipping it. It makes such a huge difference. Difference, Yeah. I did not know about the brain shrinking that much while you sleeping, and I didn't.

Yeah, I mean, it is remarkable. And when you realize that you're like, oh, there's a reason you feel crummy and toxic when you haven't had enough sleep.

Right. I'm finding myself sitting here stressing, because I already have. I have so many questions for you. I'm just like, how do I prioritize all of this? One of them. Well, two things kind of just tied in with what you said and one of the teenagers being on their screens and stuff. And also just how the gut microbiome affects mental health, especially for everyone. But the teenagers, I feel they are so vulnerable because they're on social media, they see all these things, but, you know, they don't know the role that their gut health plays in their mental health and all the neurotransmitters that are laying your gut. But then also, I'm going to put that in there. The gut microbiome has a circadian rhythm, which I did not know. I heard you say that in the book or the podcast or somewhere. I heard you say about the gut having its own circadian rhythm. So I just want to throw those two things at you and do whatever you like.

I mean, it is so fascinating, our microbiota. I mean, you know, when we think about who really runs the show here, we think about our microbiome, our microbiota. Their job really, as we've evolved, are to keep us healthy and happy, to create all of these amazing byproducts when they eat the food that we consume. And if it's beneficial food, if it's filled with fiber and phytonutrients, then our microbiome microbiota, the beneficial flora will take those nutrients and create byproducts that we need to survive, like, you know, vitamin B12 and folate and vitamin K and butyrate, which is a short chain fatty acid, which is considered our master regulator of health and our neurotransmitters. So our probiotics make maybe at least 80 to 90% of our serotonin, which makes us feel happy and calm and relaxed and helps us sleep. Our gut microbiome makes 400 times the melatonin than our brain does. 400 times. Right.

I don't know that that's a microbiome.

Yes, yep. And also makes dopamine, which is important for attention and focus, acetylcholine, which is important for processing speed, and gaba, which is also another very calming neurotransmitter. And so all of these chemicals and substances that we rely on, vitamins and minerals, those are, you know, I mean, I'm not going to say every single one of them, but the vast majority, many of them, are made by our probiotics. But that relies on us having a healthy gut microbiome in order to make those for us. Because we know that not all probiotics make serotonin or dopamine. There are certain strains that do. And if we're lacking those strains to make serotonin, well, you know, it's no wonder then that oftentimes we see a child who has anxiety or depression put on an SSRI medication. And maybe they feel better temporarily because the medication is tricking the brain into thinking there's more serotonin around. But if there are no beneficial bacteria to make the serotonin that the medication needs to act on, eventually, as is a very, very common story, we see treatment failure. I mean, treatment failure is more the norm eventually with antidepressant, anti anxiety medications. And so, you know, working on the gut is so important. I forget what your second piece was. You were talking about the circadian rhythm and the circadian rhythm, yes. Well, now, that is fascinating that our microbiota does have its own circadian rhythm, which makes sense. It's a living organism. Right. And, you know, all living organisms are not equally active through all parts of the day. And, you know, many of our microbiota are actually more active at night, and they're doing their work for us while we're sleeping. So when we don't have an appropriate circadian rhythm and we're not sleeping at the time when our microbiota should be awake, our microbiota then doesn't have the opportunity to be aware, awake for long enough to do all the things that we want them to do. And so, you know, it's not just when I talk to kids and families about the things that we do on a daily basis, I let them know we're not just doing it for ourselves. I mean, don't just sleep or exercise because you know, oh, it's good for me and I'm just gonna do it later cause I don't have time. It's because we need our microbiota, need that we are doing it for our microbiome and for ourselves. And so for some kids that really does actually make it easier for them to start implementing some of these changes and prioritizing things like sleep and movement. When they recognize, you know, all kids learn about the ecosystem around us, our world that we take care of and we reduce and reuse and re, recycle and all of that. And they learn that. And on Earth Day we celebrate. We gotta have to take care of the world so the world can take care of us. And it can be one of those sort of aha moments for kids to realize we have, have that same very similar ecosystem living inside of us. We have the one out in the world around us and then we have the one, the microscopic one, but it's the one inside of us that is just as important to take care of. And so I've had some kids really, you know, make different decisions because they know, oh, I have to take care of this ecosystem, otherwise I'm not going to be as healthy and happy as I want to be.

I, I think it's so important from the moment your child's born, doesn't matter if they can speak or not, to explain to them why they need to do certain things because that gives them that autonomy of their own body and helps them be in tune with their body, which is so, so important. I'm glad you mentioned butyrate because this was on my list of things because it's not something I had ever heard of until recently. I've got a child with a boy with autism, non verbal, about 10 years old old, and he came up with extremely low butyrate. And I hadn't heard of butyrate before because like I said, I'm a hobby fat. I'm like starting to learn a little bit more about interpreting gut microbiome tests because I'm seeing that things are not shifting if I don't treat the underlying cause. And I said to this client who's a really Good client for seeing them for a while. I'm like, there's this low butyrate thing on your kids thing. I don't know how to treat it, but there's, it looks like there's a supplement because we can't buy but butyrate as a supplement in Australia. So this is where the pod comes in. She's ordered it at high expense from America. You guys have the best supplements. Honestly, it's so much stuff that we can't get over here. But what is this butyrate thing and how on earth am I going to treat it in this kid?

Well, so one of the things we know that there are butyrate producing microbes and so when we think about how do we get those up, the, the majority of butyrate producing microbes are not ones that you can really take in a supplement. So you know, there's one called faecali bacterium prausnitzi and then Rosa buria species, they are some of our primary butyrate producers. Now butyrate, it's a short chain fatty acid that is made when these particular probiotics ferment. Whatever fibers are coming down, you know, the GI tract to them. And then the byproduct product of this eating, digesting of the fiber is butyrate. And butyrate can support a healthy gut lining. Butyrate can help to keep out, you know, abnormal pathogenic microbes. It helps support brain and cognitive function. It helps support metabolic health. I mean, so many, many different benefits. It supports immune health. And you know, I have seen it described as one of our master regulators of health. I mean, just so important for our overall function. So you can take butyrate as a supplement. It smells terrible. I mean it's, you know, and so it can be difficult for kids to take. I mean if you can swallow pills, it's no problem. But there, there are some liquid butyrates that are available. Again, I mean this, the, the taste to me is not great, but you know, it's manageable. And you can also support the growth of these beneficial bacteria that create butyrate for you. And one, one of the fruits that that's been found to do that is kiwi fruit, especially gold kiwi fruit. There's even a kiwi fruit. There are two kiwi fruit extracts, supplements that have been studied to increase butyrate production. So maybe, and they're actually from New Zealand. So maybe that's something that you could get instead of getting the actual butyrate in Australia.

That sounds amazing. I'm Actually getting goosebumps as he's saying that, which I always get goosebumps when I know. Yep, that's on. Spot on. I'm definitely going to do that for this because also, obviously the. The child has got. I'm not sure if it's ano priest or what it is, but loads of little bits of poo throughout the day, which, you know.

So that sounds like. Oh, my gosh.

I think has to clean undies all day long. It's hard. It's hard.

I think this. So there's a green kiwi fruit extract and a gold kiwi fruit extract. And I can't remember which one has which benefit because one of them, it's by the same company, a New Zealand company, but one of them has been found to increase. Increase this faecali bacterium and butyrate production. The other one helps with constipation and with bowel movements. And so that could be really good for him.

Amazing. Thank you. Oh, that's exciting. Can we also just talk about what on earth a healthy bowel motion looks like? Because in all these mummy groups and stuff, I see them talking online and they're like, oh, no, my kid doesn't go every. Only goes every three days. It's normal that. My doctor says it's normal.

Normal.

And. But even. Can we start, right, all the way back from, like, breastfed babies? Because even breastfed babies will sometimes go a week or 10 days without having a bowel motion and they're told that that's okay. And then later on, people. I'm always blown away by the amount of adults that come to me, oh, no, I only go to the toilet about twice a week and they think that it's normal because their GP's always told them that's normal. Can we just talk about what does a healthy bowel motion look like?

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, babies are a little. When babies are born, born, they have a very strong gastrocolic reflex. So gastro means stomach and colic is the intestines. And so pretty much every time you put something in their stomach, it causes that intestinal waving, that movement, and they squirt something out, whether it's a big poop or a little squirt or some air. Right. Some gas. And we know this as moms, like when our babies were nursing, all of a sudden, like, right, right. As you start nursing, there's poop that comes out or a big loud fart. Right. I mean, whatever it is that starts to. And we, as adults, we still have a Gastrocolic reflex as we get older. But usually it's just in the morning after we eat breakfast, or for some, it's also at nighttime right now that will start to slow down for babies. And so, you know, after a few months of age, they're not necessary poop pumping every time they eat something. Right. And, you know, breast milk is much more, you know, it's just highly absorbable and usable than formula. And so there are some babies who breastfed babies who don't poop for a few days because the, I mean, they're just utilizing their breast milk so much. Right. All of that's getting absorbed and then they may have a massive poop like once every few days or so. I don't worry about that as much. As long as, as babies are still nursing very comfortably, normally their appetite's not lower, their belly is not completely bloated and distended. They're nice and soft bellies and they're comfortable. They don't feel uncomfortable at all. Right. Those babies who, over the course of a few days, you notice their belly's getting more and more bloated, they're kind of squirming and, you know, scrunching up their legs and they, they look like they're more gassy and uncomfortable. Well, they're. Then that's showing me that they're not tolerating, you know, not stooling more frequently. For formula fed babies typically don't stool as often, and they tend to, they. You are more at risk for getting even a little bit actually constipated and getting harder stools. I mean, baby poop should be anywhere from, like, liquidy to pasty, but should not be balls that you can roll off the diaper. Once you become a toddler or a kid kid or an adult, we really want your poops. And there's, you know, my book, I have something a diagram of. It's called the Bristol Stool chart, and you can easily Google that online as well. There's different, you know, type one through type seven. And the ideal type is a smooth looks like a smooth brown banana or smooth brown sausage. You know, just very smooth. It's one piece and it doesn't float. It sinks down to the bottom of the toilet. It also can be considered normal if there are certain, like, cracks in that stool in that poop. Maybe it's not quite. Maybe it looks more like a corn on the cob. Right. But as opposed to a banana. Once you're getting to bigger clumps that are stuck together or actual clumps in the toilet that's more constipated. Even if you're stooling every day, I would say that's still too hard. And you know, once it starts to become more like pudding or gravy or liquidy, I mean that's diarrhea. And so we really want that stool to look healthy.

Right?

And we also want poops to be at least once a day. If it's a really good looking poop and it's every other day, that's acceptable. But you know, we should be passing our stool the waste products from our food that we don't need anymore on a regular basis. And so if you're not pooping at least every other day, there's either some issues with motility that we need to work on. Sometimes it's literally, it's not that there's not an urge, but it's just the need to, from a lifestyle standpoint, slow down so that when you have the urge to poop, you actually take the time to sit and relax on the toilet instead of go, go, go, go, go, you know, running to, you know, school or running to soccer, running to, you know, whatever it is. And sometimes, sometimes it's a matter of really working on stress management skills. Because when we're stressed and we're in that fight or flight and all of our muscles are tensed, you know, ready for that fight or flight response, then I mean, the last thing your body is going to want to do is stop and poop, right? There are can be a whole variety of factors. Oftentimes kids need more fiber in their diet, more water. Magnesium is another very common nutrient. That deficiency that often needs to be replenished. And of course there's so many homeopathic remedies that can be great for constipation. I mean, nux vomica I use fairly frequently because I mean a lot of constipation nowadays, even, even in little kids is because they're just on the go, go, go, go, go. And you know, just. And have that stressful lifestyle.

Absolutely. You made me think of something else as well because I always wonder about like kind of time of day as well because I, I kind of feel like when you wake up in the morning you should have a bowel motion and then like, you know, well formed and daily. And to me that's kind of like a sign of like a healthy gut because I feel like we don't really know what's normal anymore because there's so many allergies and illnesses and seems like yeah, every, people not pooping like, and that seems to be the new normal. So I feel like people need like a little bit of a retrain. But you made me wonder about that circadian rhythm. If maybe people aren't having a bowel motion in the morning. Maybe if they're not getting to bed early enough, those, the little microbiome, the, the gut bacteria don't get a chance to do their job. So then you're not ready to go in the, in the morning. But do you think it makes a difference on time of day that you go or not really?

I mean probably not so much. I mean most people are going to go in the morning, some people will go at nighttime. I think whatever is more consistent for you. I mean again, it's most common in the morning. If it is. Now with the caveat, if we have the time to really slow down and eat something and get that reflex, that gastrocolic reflex going. But so many people just rush out the door and how many teenagers rush out the door without breakfast and they just, you know, I'm not hungry and you know, run to school. So that is something that we have to watch for because, you know, you mentioned Miralax. I mean Miralax is just not something that we want are. Oh, I don't know if you mentioned Miralax, but Miralax is. Do you have Miralax in Australia?

I think it's probably. Is that the type of thing that makes you go to the loo? We've got similar things over here. I'm just trying to think of what the name is over here, but I know what you mean.

Well, so Miralax is polyethylene glycol. Right. And I mean very similar to antifreeze that's used here and it is used for constipation. Now it has never been used for, it has never been studied, studied for long term use in children and kids under 18 years of age and also is not indicated for use in adults for more than two weeks. And yet these children are being put on Miralax for years and years and years and told, oh, there's no problem with using Miralax indefinitely. And parents have no idea when I tell them, you know, there's, it's actually not approved for children, children at all.

If you look at this called Mobicol over here. So Mobicol. So from what I understand, like kind of almost petroleum based and because the body can't absorb it, it's like pushes everything through and yeah, I have lots of clients that are from infancy on it for months at a time and.

That I'm just, you know, one of the things with I guess Movical and Miralax is there are many reports of neuropsychiatric complications from its use. So much so that the FDA did call for an investigation into it, but hasn't. There's really, hasn't been much movement in towards really investigating these important side effects. But it is noted. And so I just, I think, you know, any parent who is told that it's okay to use it for long term use, the first question is, well, why isn't my child poop pooping in the first place? You know, not just putting a band aid on, you know, trying to get stools moving, but let's look and see, let's try to figure out all the different potential root causes so that they can actually poop on their own and their intestines can do its own thing.

I just want to jump back to something else. When you were saying about the Bristol stool chart, something I often get my clients to do is print out the Bristol stool chart and also the urine chart. Like you can find that online as well in color laminated, put it up on the toilet wall so your kids know what to have healthy. And actually I saw this in Bali in the public toilets at the airport. They had the urine chart up on the toilet wall. And I'm like really? Imagine every school in the whole world has a Bristol stool chart and a urine chart up on the stall wall so children know what healthy pee and poop look like. Yeah, so cool. And then quickly before I know our time's up, but I quickly want to squeeze in there spore biotics. I hear about that everywhere these days. Is it a fad or is it worth trying to trying out?

That is a great question. You know, I have adult parents who feel great on spore spore based probiotics and are doing really well. There really unfortunately is not a lot of pediatric data. Now there is some good adult data that spore based probiotics can restore the gut microbiome after antibiotics. They can be very helpful. So I do think that there is a role. Absolutely. But I haven't used it widely until there are some pediatric studies. But I haven't used it widely yet in children just because I'm waiting to see, well, what are the indications and you know, how effective are they for pediatric populations. It's also the thing, you know, just as we talk about probiotics, it's interesting. I used to, you know, this is now, when I started my practice 20 years ago, I would tell everyone, oh yeah, we should all be taking a probiotic supplement every single day. And I don't say that anymore. You know, I really, what I think we really need to be doing is nourishing and feeding our beneficial flora in our gut and focusing on prebiotic and phytonutrient rich foods and eating fermented foods. Right. You know, as a way to really naturally get in those probiotics and those postbiotics like butyrate and gaba. And then using, using probiotic supplements really on a targeted basis, you know, after antibiotics to replace the bacteria that the beneficial bacteria that have been killed or if your child is dealing with any mental health concerns, taking probiotics that we know specifically are strain specific to increase serotonin and dopamine levels, or there are specific strains that through the winter have been studied to reduce the rates of fevers and flu like illnesses. So really, when we're targeting those, and then we don't take them forever, we get those in to try to support the need that we have. And then we want our own bacteria, our own beneficial bacteria to take over as well. Because each of our microbiomes is so unique. I mean, just like our fingerprints. And it just doesn't make sense of the trillions of microorganisms in our gut that we can narrow it down to, you know, even if, if it's a broad spectrum probiotic with, you know, 16 different strains, that's the tip of the iceberg. So using them judiciously, using them, you know, as needed for specific indications, and then relying on food, lifestyle, you know, mindfulness to really support a healthy gut microbiome is I think the best way to go.

And I love that in your book and your whole ethos is about making this all, all kind of like fun and not so serious and not beating yourself up and having that mum guilt if you do need to use antibiotics. And in your book you've got a list of questions that you can ask your doctor if they want to put you on antibiotics. You know, finding out if it's viral, bacterial, the questions that you can ask so that you're making an informed decision. Something else I really love. In your book you've got these, like, which microorganisms are related to certain like autoimmune type conditions. Yeah, might not have thought of. So if you have a client with like multiple sclerosis, there's actually a bacteria that you're probably going to have an overgrowth in your gut. And instead of just treating the symptoms, actually going right to the gut and treating that like that specific bacteria help, like knowing where it's coming from. I feel like your book is just packed with so much incredible information that every single person needs to have it and read this book just to educate us on the most basic but most important thing. And the more we're learning about the gut, the more more we're reading. That's actually our main brain.

Right.

And actually the brain is the second brain.

Yeah, yeah.

And how unbelievably important is. So have you got a specific place that you prefer people purchase the book? Is it based just through Amazon or. I always ask authors because I've like, I've heard that they sometimes hardly get any money for their book. If somebody's from a certain place, want to make sure that the author lets us know where's the best place for us to buy from to support them.

Yeah, I mean, thank you for asking. I, you know, I think it, it doesn't really matter. It's wherever you can easily find books. I mean, the vast majority of people buy their books on Amazon in this day and age. Right. And it is available on Amazon Australia now. But if there are any local bookstores, I just, I love supporting our small, you know, local bookstores. And you know, I actually had a mom who was visiting, I believe she was from Bulgaria and she sent me a photo saying, look, I found your book on the bookshelf here. And so, you know, the more that we can and, you know, support small and local independent, you know, as opposed to huge chains, I love. But I would say wherever is easiest for you.

Amazing. I definitely need to chat with you afterwards about doing a bulk order so that we can stock your book as well. I've got a few books that practitioners that we stock and I think this is such a vital one. You also have your own range of supplements. And I heard Alex Stewart, one of my, like, I was such a fan girl. I just love her so much life talking about how she loves your SPM supplement. But you've got a range of supplements as well. You've got the book, you share amazing info on your socials. Can you just quickly give us like a little rundown? I just don't want to miss any of the places where people can find you.

Yeah, I mean the best place to find me is my website, HealthyKids. Happy kids.com and I'm most active on Instagram, which is Healthy Kids, Happy kids. And my goal for 20, 20, 2025 is to, you know, just do more posts and educational content for families and for practitioners. And I do have a supplement line. I'm creating a custom children's microbiome supplement that I'm so excited about. So I will keep you posted on that.

Amazing. I love things that are formulated especially for children because it can be hard sometimes and you can use sometimes an adult one and just kind of like reduce it for the child, but it's not if it's gut microbial biome, you've just taught us how important it is that the child's microbiome is so different to the adults. So that's amazing.

Yeah.

It has been a dream come true getting to chat with you today, Eliza. Thank you so much. Is there any final little message that you want to leave our listeners with?

I just, I would say I'm just so honored to be able to be in front of you and chat with you and hopefully provide a little education and inspiration. And so, you know, we are all, all in this together as moms and just grateful to have this opportunity.

Amazing. Thank you so much for your time.