A Gift AND a Stumbling Block

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Welcome to the beyond you'd why podcast, where we go beyond just talking about your why and actually help you discover and live your why. Now, every episode, I bring on fascinating and successful people who are living their why so that you can learn about that particular why. And today we're going to focus on the why of Clarify. So if you have not yet discovered your why, make sure you go to whyinstitute.com discover your why, and and then come back and listen to the rest of the podcast. Because it has a lot more meaning for you when you know your why. So the why of Clarify. These are people that seek out clarity. If things are crystal clear, they can move forward fast and make great decisions. But when things are not clear, they need to stop, make sure that things are clear, go as deep as necessary to be able to find that clarity so that then they can move forward. So they're extreme clarity. They're great at solving problems. They're great at helping others become clear. They're great at communicating in a very clear manner. But when things aren't clear, that's when they struggle just a bit. So we're going to talk today to a gentleman. He is a. He got his law degree from the University of Georgetown. He no longer practices law because he's a successful business coach. He loves to work with CEOs and larger organizations, helping them get clear so they can make decisions and move forward faster. He's why certified. He's Four Questions certified. He's got lots of different certifications on how to help people. But today we're going to talk about the why of Clarity. So I want to welcome Chris Kenny. Welcome, Chris, to the Know youw Why podcast. Hey, Gary, it's great to be here.

Thank you for having me.

So tell everybody you know. Well, we've been friends for quite a while now. When. How long ago did you discover your why?

I think it was 2014. So four years.

Four years ago. And I remember when we met at Starbucks.

Yep.

To discover your why. And you were skeptical and you were like, what is this stuff? I don't know if I even want to hear it. I've already. I already know a lot, right?

Yes.

And so I thought I did. You thought you did. What was that process like? For you.

So it was great process for me, your ability to kind of ask the right questions.

This was before the why app.

Before the why app. Right. It was a whole different methodology for discovering your why. And, you know, you really, you nailed it. But here's. Here was the funny thing, and maybe some of your listeners whose why happens to be clarified may go through this same experience. You said in the intro, it's absolutely true that when, for a person who has this why clarify, when things are not clear, it's hard to move forward. And so I kept questioning. I think I've driven you. I don't know how many times you and I have had conversations about what my why is. And because I kept thinking, well, you know, isn't it this or isn't it that? The reality of it is, is that this, this whole clarify thing is essential for me. And it's. It's funny because as you say, I think in your videos and certainly in the training we did, you know, your why, as I've come to know it, is not only one of your great gifts to the world, it can also be, you know, your biggest stumbling block, as you alluded to. Right. So for me, getting clear on the fact that.

Clarity was my why was also. It was a challenge for me, but I'm very comfortable with it.

And it does manifest itself sort of everywhere I go.

Yeah. And so you use that now in your. In your business. But before we go there. Yeah, let's go back a little bit. And you went actually through law school, correct?

Yeah, so I'm an undergrad, Georgetown undergrad, economics degree. And. And ended up in law school, quite frankly, because there were a whole lot of things that were not clear in my life. Although, you know, that's arguably true for a lot of people coming out of school. They don't really don't know what the heck they're going to do with this themselves. And so through a series of, I think, fortunate events, I found myself in law school, graduated, got a job for a big international law firm in Chicago, based out of Chicago, and I was very quickly pigeonholed as a business lawyer, specifically focusing in on securities law stuff. And not to bore your listeners or anything, but one of the things, looking back on it now, now that I know my why, I ended up leaving the practice of law and leaving that firm, etc.

After how many years?

Well, I was at that firm for just a couple of years and then worked for another big firm doing corporate work in Kansas City, which is where my family is from. But I was. I grew dissatisfied with it. And looking back on it, I think part of the reason that I grew dissatisfied was a lot of the legal practice in putting contracts together and negotiating deals really had to do with obfuscation. I mean, trying to, in some ways, insert stuff into agreements, you know, within the bounds of legal ethics. Right. But you were constantly trying to do things to maximize the advantage for your client, etc. And, you know, that. That just didn't feel right for me. So I think part of this clarity thing played itself out in my decision to move on to other things. Moved into business for a while, ran a family business, started a company here in Albuquerque, and then moved into strategic planning. I was drawn to that, I think, again, around this clarity piece, because a large part of coaching people in strategic planning is getting them clear on where they want to go, why do they want to get there, and then how is it, what are the steps they're going to take and how are they going to make that strategic plan come to life? And I still do some of that inside the coaching work that I do. But again, this whole clarity thing has been there for a long, long time, obviously. And then, you know, through the discovery of it and then growing comfortable with it. Yeah, it shows up sort of everywhere I go.

And kind of what I think I'm hearing you say about law was you want to make things clear. The legal profession values non clarity. So that it's not. I don't know. So that. So that it can be debated that.

Yes, that. And you wanted. You wanted to have your client in the best possible position in the event that things with the transaction went south and you had to rely on the four corners of the document to say, here's the way we're gonna resolve this issue with one another. And you know, all of a sudden the other size side realizes that you have a position that they hadn't really thought about ahead of time, and you had. And you, you took care of that by making it part of the contract.

Ah, so you did that for a while. Got tired of it. Just said, this isn't for me. Yeah, that's a big step.

Yeah.

I mean, you had put a lot of your life into being a lawyer.

Yes. Yeah. A lot of time, energy, debt.

Yeah. And then to walk away.

Yeah. But, you know, I mean, we all look to follow the path that is. Feels the most right for us. And quite frankly, I think my own, you know, journey and struggles with that is part of what I do now inside my coaching arena. I think it's so important for leaders of any type. Mostly I work with business leaders now, but really I think that, you know, if someone's going to invest their time, energy and effort into something like a business, okay, you're going to own it and run it. My belief is that the individual has something inside of them that they are trying to bring to life through their business. And a lot of times they're unclear about what that is. You know, people talk about vision, okay? You know, you might have a general vision, vision for where you want to be. Oftentimes what's missing or isn't articulated very clearly in the mind of the owner is why. Why is that particular version of the vision, you know, so important to me? And I found that through my experience, through the why coaching, you know, you've trained me in and the stuff that I've done, I'm able to sort of tap into that for that person so that they get far more clear on not only where do they want to go, but why do they want to get there. And once you have that, then designing the business to meet that vision and that your internal core purpose behind it, it's a design exercise, it becomes much. It isn't easy. I won't say that it's easy, but it becomes far easier. And as I tell my clients, when you go through this process and you sort of line these things out, they become the filters through which you make much better decisions. So having a clear sense of the owner or CEOs own why and how that relates to the why of the business is a primary filter. You go to make a decision about, you know, am I going to, you know, start this new product line or am I going to expand into this market? First filter is how does that line up with who you are as a person and what drives you? And that's a different type of decision making process. But what I'm finding my clients are finding is that it's making all the difference in the world for them because most of them are really good business people, right? They can execute a lot of things really, really well. But it sort of reminds me in some ways of that story. Out of the seven habits of highly effective people that Covey tells about climbing the ladder of success and realizing when you get to the top that it was leaning up against the wrong wall. And so the power that I find in knowing your why and in coaching my clients is making sure that they don't have that experience, that they in fact have that ladder leaning against the correct wall.

So that's A challenge. I mean, that's a challenge for all of us, I think.

Oh, absolutely. I mean, you know, certainly my own.

So.

So you alluded to my own experience of making a leap, you know, from the law into something else.

What was the thing that made you say, done? I'm out of here. I don't want to do this anymore?

Wow. Good question. I don't know that there was any one thing, but there certainly was a sense that. I guess two things. One, I didn't feel like I was in alignment with, you know, what I was doing, wasn't really in alignment with who I really was and what I was all about or why I was doing it. And the second was, you know, I guess. And again, this is the benefit of hindsight now. Okay. So at the time, it was more just a feeling than anything. But I have this belief now, you know, we're all here for a purpose of some kind. And I think that a big part of that purpose is around being the best that we can be for the world, as opposed to just being the best in the world at something and discovering what that is, is unique to each one of us. And that's a journey. It's a process. It takes time.

How do you help people do that?

A lot of it is by asking questions. Right.

Clarifiers are great at asking questions, you.

Know, and the challenge is in that regard. I'll get back to your other question about how. But, yeah, mainly it's by asking questions. You know, the challenge I find for myself, and this is just comes with training and coaching from other people. Coaching me is that there will be times when I will see, or I will at least believe that I see, quote, unquote, the answer. Or I'll feel like after talking to you for a number of minutes and asking you all these questions, you've laid stuff out. I can see the picture, right? And I just feel like telling you, okay, here it is.

But my job as a coach is more to enable the person to arrive at that clarity themselves. You know, that's where the value is. And again, I have to stop myself from just going, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, here it is. Because it needs to be theirs. They need to own it, and only when they own it themselves does it really have the power. So back in. Answer your question. Largely, it's around questions and, you know, questions. I don't always go in with a set list of questions. I have an idea of the things that I want to ask people, but I try my best to have a conversation where I get to know the person and one thing will lead to another, and I'll just ask them more and more questions about that. And again, it's analogous to the Eisenhower quote about strategic planning.

Right.

Where Eisenhower said, you know, strategic plans generally aren't worth the paper that they're written on. But the process of strategic planning is invaluable. And the same is true with this whole notion of asking questions.

So it's not what Chris Kenney concludes about what you've said. It's about enabling you to go through the process of thinking through your answers to these questions in a way that enables you to see more clearly for yourself the decisions you need to make to get where you want to go. So that's really the.

Sometimes people never even think of those. I mean, I would guess there's a big percentage of people that just do and don't really think.

Absolutely. Yeah.

And then you come along and make them think, and they haven't been in that mode of having to think about. I just want to go do.

Absolutely. And it pisses people off.

I bet it does.

You know, So I need to be careful.

Yeah.

Because I want to help them, and I don't want to. I don't want to. I don't want to get in their way. I mean, the doers. It's awesome to watch people who are just, you know, do stuff and then ask questions later. And so managing those conversations with those people is a little bit different than the person who is introspective, you know, naturally, and finds it comfortable to do so. You know, each person's a little bit different. You approach it, you know, a different way. But what I found is that when an individual is able to connect why they're doing what they're doing and who they are at a deep level with what it is they're doing and how they're doing it, man, they begin to start making decisions differently again, because it's a series of. Now they see things differently, and they see the issues differently. And therefore, they make decisions differently. And those decisions, they are much more happy. You know, quite frankly, I don't care what you do for a living. My job, as I see it, as a coach, is to help you bring out the best that you have inside of you. And the clarifying questions that I ask are just really ways to get you to be able to do that more effectively for yourself and for the organization that you're leading.

That's a hard thing. You know, I think to myself, when I'M When I'm asking people lots of questions and all sudden the answer pops up for me, I kind of want to just tell them the answer. You know, it's almost like you got to humble yourself or hold yourself back to not be the solution, to be just part of their journey.

Yeah.

Because my tendency is going to want to be to, well, look, let me just show you what to go do.

And let's go do it, you know, and yes, that's absolutely right. And I guess, you know, therein lies the distinction in my mind anyway, between being a coach and being a consultant. And there are times when I will ask the person I'm working with. All right, Would you like my thoughts on it? Right. I'd rather seek permission to give them something, and I'll only do that when it feels like it's an appropriate situation where the person's really struggled to the point that if somebody doesn't come up with something soon, the whole thing's just gonna implode. And so there are times when I try to offer solutions. But you're absolutely right. My big challenge is to take off my consultant hat when I'm in a coaching mode. And, you know, some of that comes from the legal training. Right. I mean, as an attorney, you were expected not only to be able to spot issues, and by the way, this whole. The whole legal training thing was good in the sense that lined up with a clarify thing, because what you're trained to do is spot issues. Right. So. And that's a lot of what I'm doing when I'm asking these questions. But in the legal profession, you know, people are paying you a significant amount of money to give them the answer or give them advice about how they ought to protect themselves or take advantage of a situation or whatever. And so the natural inclination was to say, okay, I've heard everything you have to say, and here's what you need to do. And. And that's a different role than coaching.

You know, the thing about your why. So here's what I want to shift gears a little bit, because clarify is a very rare why. It's one of the most rare whys, and we don't run into them very often. And with you, I'm curious, when you run into somebody with your own why of clarify, how do you help them move forward faster? How do you help them get clear? How do you help them come to an end point where they can actually jump or move or do something?

That's a great question. I can't say that it's happened all that often, I suppose, because it's not out there all that often. I think we're so first, imagine somebody.

Listening to this who's why is clarify.

Yeah.

And they're like, man, I'm getting stuck in this. And I gotta. I mean, how do I get going here?

So that's a great question. And I. And you know, as I say this stuff, it's sort of. Oftentimes I need to practice what I'm talking about here for myself first. I think it's an acknowledgement or a recognition that things are unclear. And that's okay. That's probably the biggest thing, because you want it to be. You want the answer or the pathway to be, you know, there in front of you and clear. And so you're frustrated. So I think acknowledging the frustration and then recognizing that it's coming from sort of a lack of clarity and asking things about, okay, what would need to be different about this situation? What would you need to see? So I try to use those visual kind because with a clarity person, a lot of it's around the language of seeing. Right? So what would you need to see in order to feel more confident? What would need to be in place? And those are the kinds of things that I think. I also wouldn't push somebody to jump too soon. You know, yes, they need to get off the dime, but I think the first issue is, is what do they need to see differently in order to feel more confident about moving forward? And then how do you manage those areas where they may still not be able to get the kind of clarity that they need? You know, it's funny, I'm in business for myself. I have a business partner that I've been in business for a number of years. Great guy, great partner. But I am sort of an entrepreneur, or at least a solopreneur or I don't know what you'd call me. But in any event, as I coach entrepreneurs myself, one of the things that I will say to them is, you know, to be a great entrepreneur, you often need to be able to make decisions or take action when things are not clear, when you don't know what the future holds. And so back to our point at the beginning of the podcast about how you or why is your great strength, but can also be an Achilles heel for you. For me, I may not make the best entrepreneur. I don't know that I would be the best sort of Silicon Valley startup CEO guy because of so much uncertainty that's out there now. I suppose with the right coaching and the right team, it could all work. Right. But I do recognize that, and I try to. So back to your question. So with a person who's there, I try to, I guess, express some empathy around that. Hey, I get it. You know, here's how I operate. Here's what holds me back. So let's talk now about, you know, if this is kind of what you need to see. Let's talk about how we can get you there. So that's how I think I would approach it with somebody. And once they acknowledge that that's what's going on and. And then they work slowly through the things that they can get clear about, I think that's when they get more confident and they're willing to pull the trigger.

You know what I'm noticing, Chris, is as I interview more and more people for the podcast, with all the different whys, like you said, is your biggest strength is your biggest weakness. And being better for somebody who's wise to find a better way. If I'm always looking for a better way, when do I stop? You know, because it can always be better. It can always be better. It can always be better. Okay, great. When are you going to stop and say, enough, good enough, good enough. So better way. People are looking for good enough. And unless I say it's good enough, that's not good enough. And I got to keep going. And so clarity and clarify. I guess the question becomes the way you asked that question. You said, what needs to happen in order for you to have confidence? Okay, but I wonder if the question would be what needs to happen in order for you to be clear.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because is it confidence you're looking for or clarity you're looking for?

Well, no, you're right. I mean, the. To ask about confidence is to sort of jump the gun one step.

Yeah. Because you're thinking clarity. But is that a fair question to ask somebody with the why of clarify? Could I say to you, Chris, or what is it that you're going to need in order for you to feel like you are clear enough to move forward? What do you need? Would you be able to answer that?

You know, that's a good question. I guess it depends on the circumstance some ways. In some cases, I think I could answer it. Perhaps a better question is to say, so let's take a step back for a minute and look at this situation. And so tell me what is clear for you?

What can you tell me is pretty clear for you? I got that there's a whole bunch of stuff that you're not clear about. Let's talk about the few things that you are clear on. And then, and then I think perhaps that might lead to some other questions. And so I think the end questions I think would be around.

Could you.

See this situation from this perspective and if you shifted your perspective on it, what would you see then? You know, because I think sometimes what happens with we clarifiers is that, you know, we've got a set of lenses on, you know, that we think is the way to view things. And it may not be. May not be the most effective set of lenses to use. And so I think if I can get them to shift their perspective slightly, some things may come become clear or clear in a different way that would at least give them enough momentum to get off the dime.

You know, what I'm finding is that everybody's better way people are great at helping other people find better ways, but it's hard for them to help themselves find a better way. Clarifying people are great at helping other people get clear, but it's really hard for them to make themselves clear. Makes sense. People are great at helping other people make sense of their challenges, but they're not so good at helping themselves figure out their own challenges. Yeah. And so where this kind of came to life for me is when I interviewed Jason Rogers, who was the Olympic two time Olympic silver medalist in fencing. And his why is mastery? And I said, how have you been able to overcome the challenges that come with mastery so that you can focus on the good parts of mastery? And he said two things, two ways. He said, number one, I need to have a time frame. If I don't have a time frame on when I have to make a decision, I could go on forever. And number two, I have to have a coach or a confident or somebody that I trust that I can bounce it off of that I will accept their opinion as valuable. And then when he told me that, I was like, wow, that's kind of the same for me.

Yep.

And that's kind of. I wonder if that's kind of the same for all of us.

Absolutely. Oh, I think so.

That was really powerful when he said that to me.

I think so. And what's great about that observation, I really appreciate it, is I think that's what I do for my clients.

Yes. Right.

Regardless of what their why is. My little tagline is clear thinking, great decisions, exceptional results. So the clear thinking part isn't something I do for them.

They do it for themselves. Right. But I guess my gift is in being Able to ask them the kinds of questions that they need to be asking and answering for themselves so that they get clear. Because once I believe that once people are clear, they can make great decisions for themselves, for the organizations they lead. And then as a result of making great decisions, they get exceptional results. So, yeah, I think, look, I'm a coach, I need a coach. Yeah, I think everybody does. You know, you could take it into, you know, whether it's in the business setting or, let's face it, in your, you know, your significant other or your spouse. Right. I mean, in. What I've seen in healthy relationships is that that's part of what goes on. Yeah. You know, because I mean, we can all express the huge amount of confidence, but most of that is usually sort of ego driven puffery. And we're trying to bring off this fact that we so confident when in fact, many of us have a lot of, you know, doubts and stuff. So having a coach is. That's. So his observation with that is, I think, really right on.

Yeah, he was brilliant. And as I keep playing that around, I see how more valid it is, how valid that is. You know, really a coach is there to help you make a decision.

Absolutely.

And put a timeframe on it so you have some accountability. And if you have that man, you can be so much more effective. Without that, it's tough to.

I mean, it's frankly, it's what good teachers do for their students. It's what good parents do for their kids, you know, so it's what friends do for friends. It's what coaches who get paid do for their clients, I think.

So why I'm kind of taking it in this direction is because again, this is such a rare why, and I'm glad that we have you here to be able to talk about this because it's a fascinating why for so many people you happen to have it, you're a great example of it. And they get to know the struggles. Every why has wonderful things about it, and every why has struggles. And sometimes the struggles of clarify sometimes feel like they outweigh the benefits of it because it's a slower process. And when you meet somebody with this why, you've got to understand that about. About where they're at. They're not gonna move fast. It's just, they're not. So if you have someone on your team with the why of clarify, don't put them in a place where you need to make a fast decision.

Exactly. And that's huge. That is so critical to knowing your why. And knowing the why on your team. Right. I mean, a huge part of what I do in my business practice, you know, the whole Jim Collins thing about getting the right people in the right seats, doing the right things. Right. So right people on the bus is great, but you gotta put them in the right seats. And to your point, I mean, understanding who you are and what the why is that drives you will certainly play a significant role in what seat you occupy on the bus. Yes.

You know, something I want you to think about and everybody to think about.

You know, if you were to rank the why's in order of what's most important to deal with first, who you'd like to help you first. I can't think of anything more important than being clear. Oh, yeah, yeah. Of course. It's the best way. But, I mean, the. The process of getting clear has to be the beginning of it, you know, if you don't even know where you are, how do you know where you're gonna go? It doesn't matter where you're going, because you don't even know where you're starting from.

Correct.

So you've got to first get clear. And there's no better person to help you do that than somebody whose why is clarified. Because that's how they see the world.

They're good advisors.

Yeah.

And confidants and coaches. I mean, Right. Because they'll. They'll listen to what you have to say, they'll see things a certain way, and if they're good at reflecting back to you and asking you good questions, they can help you get to that place again. The temptation that we have to avoid is to jump in too soon, thinking that we know what the other person has said or is trying to say or where they're trying to go before we've really gotten there. And secondly, even if that's the role we're being asked to do, it's far more beneficial for the. For the individual themselves to come to their own realization of it all.

Yeah. Well, listen, Chris, I am so happy that you were here to be on the podcast because you've been an example and. And given so much information on this particular why, and that's valuable for everybody to know. If you've got somebody with your why in your life, you got to know this about them. You just flat have to know it or you'll have challenges.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

So your wife is a saint.

My wife is a saint. She. One quick funny story. I was. I was on the phone with somebody. It was a. I was on A Bluetooth call in the car. Debbie was in the car next to me and I was, I actually was complaining about something. It was a service issue. And in any event, I probably explained to the service provider the reasons for my unhappiness five or six different ways and hung up the telephone. And my wife turns to me and said, Listen, Mr. Clarified. I think he got it after the second or maybe the third time you explained it. You didn't need to do it six times. So that's a challenge of living with a clarifier, I suppose, or working with one, I suppose. Is that because our big objective, I think, is to see the light bulb turn on over your head. And until we see that you get it, we'll keep coming back and trying to re explain it. And you know, when you see people roll their eyes a little bit, it's time to stop talking and move on.

So let's say I'm listening to this and I think, you know what? I'm lacking clarity. My business is lacking clarity. I need somebody to help me with that. Who would be your ideal client and how could they get ahold of you?

Oh, great. Thank you for asking. So my ideal client is really a purpose driven leader. And by that I mean it's an organizational leader who is really trying to improve the lives of others, the people who work for them, as well as whatever it is that the company is doing in the world to try to make, you know, sort of all ships rise. That's the kind of person I really enjoy helping. And it's an individual where she or he is looking to grow their business, to grow their impact in the world. I love working with for profit companies, but I also do some work for nonprofits and it's a person who is themselves a lifelong learner and they don't perceive that they have all the answers right. So they're coachable. Yeah, I guess that's a real important thing. So the way to get a hold of me, my cell phone, I'm happy to give out. It's my also my business number is 505-263-7067. The website is stargroup consulting.com and in my email, you know, you can go under the profiles and get my email address there.

Excellent. Chris, thank you for being here. I enjoyed having you on the podcast.

Thank you so much, Gary. Great to be here.

Sa.