Bringing Psychology To Business: Creating A Healthier Workplace With Jason Cochran

Welcome to beyond you'd why Podcast, where we go beyond just talking about your why and actually help you discover and then live your why. You see, we believe that knowing your why, that driving force behind every decision you make and every action you take, is the essential first step to really knowing yourself. It allows you to move forward faster and have a bigger impact. If you're already a fan of the show, then you know that every week we talk about one of the nine whys and then we introduce you to somebody with that why so you can see how their why has played out in their life. This show will be more powerful for you if you've already discovered your why. If you still need to do that, head over to whyinstitute.com and discover your why today. It'll only take you about five minutes. Now let's meet today's guest. Welcome to beyond you'd why Podcast, where we go beyond just talking about your why and actually helping you discover and then live your why. So if you're a regular listener, you know that every week we talk about one of the nine whys and then we bring on somebody with that why so we can see how their why has played out in their life. And this week we're going to talk about the why of contribute to contribute to a greater cause, add value to or have an impact in the lives of others. So if this is your why, then you want to be part of a greater cause, something that is bigger than yourself. You don't necessarily want to be the face of the cause, but you want to contribute to it in a meaningful way. You love to support others and you relish successes that contribute to the greater good of the team. You see group victories as personal victories. You are often behind the scenes looking for ways to make the world better. You, you make a reliable and committed teammate and you often act as the glue that holds everyone else together. You use your time, money, energy, resources and connections to add value to other people and organizations. And so today I've got a great guest for you. His name is Jason Cochran. He is a business psychologist and the co founder of technology companies I Aspire and Do Lead in Indianapolis, both of which are focused on human development. Fascinated with the exploration of human potential, Jason has devoted his life to building scalable solutions that attract, develop and retain talent. He is also hands on experience working with organizations in education and business, leading people change, process improvement and digital transformation in consulting roles. Frustrated with the shortcomings of failed employee engagement initiatives, Jason created the four principles of Connection and Framework connecting with self, others role and the organization which creates purpose through meaningful employee experiences addressing the innate needs for why people desire meaningful work in their lives that leads to fulfillment. His passion is to help organizations build growth cultures where people elevate to their potential and organizations fulfill their missions in the world. More recently, he joined top 10 global HR thought leaders IRA Wolf as co host on the Geeks, Geezers and Googleization show where they interview global thought leaders concerning the convergence of people, technology and the future of work, jobs, careers, business and HR. The show is rated as a top 50 business podcast by Thinkers360 and is ranked in the top 10% globally out of nearly 3 million podcasts. Jason, welcome to the podcast.

Wow, what an intro. Gary, thank you so much. I'm excited to be with you and your listeners today.

That was a mouthful. There's a lot to unpack there.

Yeah, there absolutely is. And I think we're going to unpack it really well today because we're going to talk about the why, which is at the center of most of what I do, or at least I try to do.

I love that. Well, let's go back to where did you grow up? Tell us a little bit about your childhood.

Absolutely. I grew up in Logansport, Indiana. It's about an hour and a half north of Indianapolis, rural Indiana. I had 50 people in my graduating class. And, and that was not a private school, that was a public school. We were one of the smallest schools in the state. Once I graduated, I went down to Nashville, Tennessee for college, became a psychologist, would have stayed down there. I love Tennessee, but pretty much all my family was back in Indiana and I missed them. So I ended up moving back to Indiana and have been doing work in psychology in a lot of different areas since then.

Okay, so what were you like in high school? Take us into your high school. And were you the guy that was on the sports teams? Were you the guy that everybody came to to help them solve their problems? Were you the outcast? What were you like?

I love that question, Gary. I was really shy. I was an introvert. And so I think what a lot of my classmates would be surprised at now is that I'm doing keynote speeches that I put myself out there to try and help other people because I mostly kept to my my wife jokes because my wife was the head of the cheerleading squad in the bigger school on the other side of the county. And she jokes that the only time I would make it onto the sports field was at halftime when I was playing the trumpet. So definitely was Not a jock either. But I think the thing that I did well and that most of my classmates would probably say about me was I was a pretty adaptable guy. Like, I hung out with the people who were in kind of like the skater clique. I hung out with the nerd clique, I hung out with the band clique, I hung out with the jocks. Now, part of that, maybe it is part of my personality, but I think part of it too was it was such a small school that most of those cliques, they ended up there were similar people and multiple parts of those groups. And so those are some of the characteristics that I think most people would think about me and I certainly think about myself was I was pretty adaptable, but I was also very quiet. And the other thing too that's very different about me now compared to who I was then. Back then I was not competitive. And my parents would say, well, don't you want to be valedictorian? I was like, nope, I'm fine with being in that AB range, you know, being, you know, the 8th to 10th best in terms of academic metrics in the class. Now if I'm not number one, I'm pushing for number one. That's just how I am. I've got that competitive edge. And it's not to beat other people. It's to be the best that I can be because I owe it to myself. I owe it to the people that I love and I owe it to the world to give the best that I can to try and contribute in the ways that make it a better place.

So when did you have that shift? When did you suddenly go from the non competitive to the guy that's like, hey man, I got to really do this at a high level. I can't just blend in anymore.

2012. And it's funny to throw out a specific year number, but the reason I know that is because that's when I went from just practicing as a psychologist, primarily in educational schools, to actually taking a step forward to become an entrepreneur and helping to start some technology companies. And at that time, the start of the company was I aspire that I tried to help get up off the ground with my friend Eric Brandstetter and fellow co founder. Entrepreneurship, as you know, is, I liken it to parenthood in many ways. You love it, but my goodness, the roller coaster of the ups and downs, the number of times you stub your toes, the number of times you think you're losing your mind is crazy. But ultimately what it does, regardless of whether or not your venture is successful or fails, the end result, if you open yourself up to entrepreneurship to start something that you believe in, it will change you for the better. I guarantee it, if you're open to thinking about it that way. And for me, 2012 was when I took that leap to start I aspire. And that was when I started to notice the shift in my mindset of not settling in life, understanding that there's a lot that I have to contribute and not selling myself short and making sure that I was doing the things I need to do to make those contributions. Because if I don't, who else will? There's only one of me in the world with the unique skills, gifts, and talents that I have, the way that God made me. And it's my responsibility to understand those and then to use them to make the world a better place for other people.

I love that. So why psychology? You went off to college. How did you pick the path of psychology?

Happened in fourth grade, actually, through some personal tragedies in my family. Unfortunately, in fourth grade, my grandfather took his life. I mean, committed suicide. At the time, I didn't know what depression was, but he was going through it. And so that was my first time of hearing the word suicide and even understanding or hearing that people would take their own life. And so I wrestled with that as a kid. About a year later, unfortunately, my aunt, who was his daughter, she took her life also. And so early on, I saw those. Those tragedies happen. And I started asking my parents a lot of questions around. I didn't know this type of thing would happen. Why is it happening to people I love in our family? So by the time I got to high school, I was like, you know what? I want to take classes in psychology. I want to understand behavior. I want to understand thinking. I want to understand mindsets and emotion. I didn't know what I wanted to do with it, but I was curious about it and I wanted to learn more. And so then whenever I went to college, I knew that's what I wanted to be, was a psychologist. And that was going to be the way that I was going to try and make a great contribution in the world to try and help other people. Now, after that, what ended up happening was a pretty circuitous path. I started in educational psychology, working in schools to create healthy school cultures. Now what I do is I work with businesses, applying the same types of principles and systems that we. That we put in place and processes. But now it's on the business side of things to make sure that the employee experience are the drivers that you're focusing on to have the type of culture you need to have as an organization. So that's a little bit behind why psychology interest. Gave me an initial interest as a field of study, and then why I'm doing what I'm doing now.

Yeah, to have a bigger impact. Right. And so I know you took the yos discovery, which. Which told us that your why is to contribute to a greater cause. How you do that is by making sense of complex and challenging things. And ultimately, what you bring is a trusting relationship. Right. Where others can count on you. And, boy, you can sure see that play out in the path that you took. Right. You wanted to have a bigger impact. You jumped into something very challenging, mental health, and figured out as much as you could, and then you became the trusted source for others to rely on as you went through schools. And now you're taking that into the business world.

Absolutely. And, you know, for me, there's two other people that are a big part of the story as to why I'm doing what I do now, and that's my sister Kim, and then my. My father, Richard. My dad, he had a job that he didn't really like, but he did it because it put food on the table. So it was strictly a transactional thing. And I saw him do that for a long time. Unfortunately, the chronic stress of that type of work, you eventually get to the end of the rainbow. You think, oh, if I can just get to retirement, it's okay. I don't need to enjoy what I do. It just needs to provide for things. Well, you do that long enough, if you work for a toxic boss or a toxic work culture, it can put a strain on your health or your mental health. And unfortunately, by the time my dad got to retirement age, there were a couple years there where, you know, his quality of life was really good in terms of being able to do the things he used to be able to do. But then quickly, a lot of the health challenges started coming up. And I think part of that's related to the amount of stress that he went through for quite some time. Then my sister, she was an HR professional, and she worked for a company that was very challenging in terms of the ownership. And she just got to a point where she was like, you know what? This isn't suiting me anymore. I'm going to go ahead and retire early so that she can go ahead and start taking care of her grandkids. And so I look back at the experiences they had with Work. And I know that part of my contribution that I want to make, just to put it in simple terms, is I want to help make work not suck so bad for so many people, or that there's so many work environments that are toxic, that aren't helpful. And that's what I'm on a mission to try and do through the various ventures that I'm a part of. And also toward the future, too. I have four sons. The oldest is eight, the next one is four, and then the youngest two are twins, and they just turned two last week. So I'm thinking about the future, too. And I'm thinking I want this to be a world where work does make up a healthy part of your identity, and it does matter beyond just being something transactional, but that you are doing work that makes you feel fulfilled, that brings meaning to your life, helps you grow as a person, and also is healthy for your other relationships and forms a healthy aspect of your identity too.

Now, what a concept, huh? I mean, why shouldn't it be that way? Why should we say it's not, it shouldn't be that way when obviously it is a big part, like the. One of the biggest parts of our life.

I agree. I mean, I think we've made excuses for too long, Gary, when it comes to work environments, I can't tell you the number of times I've heard people say, well, it's just a job, it's just to pay bills, or work should be work and home should be home. And I think we've made these excuses for work to just say, I just need to get through it, it's okay for it to suck. And I'm thinking, no.

When we make our best contributions in the world is when the organizational environment isn't sapping your soul, when there are basic pieces in place that make you feel appreciated, that make you feel recognized. And that's what led me to create the four principles of connection, was I was frustrated with what I saw organizations were trying to do because employee engagement levels haven't moved for over 30 years. And a big part of that is because organizations were looking at it as what can we do for our people in order to squeeze more out of them? And instead that needs to be flipped on its head. What do we need to provide for our people? Think Maslow's hierarchy of needs that makes them feel safe, secure, gives them the resources that they need so that they can do some incredible work and deliver value for internal and external stakeholders. And so for me, I like to solve complex problems to Me, I think we've overcomplicated a lot of people. Strategy and the four principles of connection is all about if we're creating experiences for employees where it helps them better connect with themselves, connect with others, connect with a role that fits their strengths, and then help them connect to the mothership, the organization at a high level, then you're not only providing value to your employees, you're also providing value to your external stakeholders as well. Because now you're not churning and burning your talent.

I love that. So what did you learn in working with students and schools that allowed you to make the jump into business? Because they seem like totally different animals, but maybe they're not sure.

Here's the thing that I saw that was really similar. There end up being a lot of decisions that are made at the top that are then pushed down below. And by that I mean in schools, oftentimes teachers would say, I can't understand why Billy isn't doing this in the classroom. And it's like, well, have you ever asked Billy, have you ever asked him for his input as to why he's doing X behavior and what it's, you know, doing for him as to why he's not doing what you want to do? But typically, what would happen in schools is instead it's, Billy's got a problem because he's getting under my skin. Find the teacher. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to meet with the principal, I'm going to meet with some other teachers, I'm going to meet with psychologist, I'm going to meet with the parent. Basically, I'm going to meet with everybody but Billy, and we're going to come up with a plan as the adults as to what we want Billy to do, and then we're going to make him do it with carrots and sticks. And then a famous psychologist by the name of Ross Green came along in the 90s, and he said, you know, if you want to. If you want to solve most of your behavior challenges in schools, you need to use collaborative problem solving. The most important person at the table is the person who's struggling with the behavior, because everybody wants to do well, nobody wants to do poorly. And so if you don't have Billy at the table being an active stakeholder in that participation about his own behavior, you're going to fail. Well, the leap to business is, for too long, we have been doing things to employees instead of with them. And I think we're at a really remarkable point in history right now because of the labor market because of the challenges with finding talent or finding the right talent. I think the leadership in many organizations that have had a modus operandi of we're fine with turnover, I think they're now starting to rethink things and think, okay, this concept of employee experience, Employees really are our first customers. Every day they're asking whether or not they're bought into the organization, they're bought into the culture, the brand, the solutions and offerings that are going out to the marketplace. And so you can't really help your customers if you aren't helping your internal customers first, which are your employees. And so for me, that was where I saw the parallel was there was way too much, especially at the top of leadership, coming up with things behind closed doors among leadership and saying, this is what we think, this is the direction we're going to head. With not enough buy in and input from the frontline folks who many times are the ones closest to the real problems that the organization is trying to solve.

Why does this seem so obvious? And why does this seem like so much common sense? And how the heck did we get so far off track?

I think it's a lot easier to just hop in and solve things yourself. I don't know about you, Gary, I'd love to hear your perspective on this. But I can tell you as a husband, many times my wife reminds me my job needs to be to listen and not necessarily to always jump to conclusions and think I know the solution and give her the solution to the problem. And I think the tendency for us, most humans, to jump to solutions is because that's a lot easier, I think, than it is to sit, be empathetic, really understand things, take a while to think through them at a metacognitive level and sort through them.

Than it is to really take the time to run focus groups than to do interviews to really understand the problem. It's a lot easier to just behind closed doors or in a vacuum, come up with solutions that you think as to what the real problem is. And so I think that's why businesses often get themselves in trouble is because it's much easier to come up with solutions than it is to take time in the problem analysis step of problem solving, to really dig in, listen to your people and figure out what's going on and put the puzzle pieces together to solve the problem.

So you get a call from a company that's struggling with culture problems, struggling with losing employees, not being able to hire, not being able to move forward like they want to what do you do with them? How does it take us through your process?

Yeah, one of the first things I want to look at is values of the organization. And something that I actually have learned from a lot of Dave Ulrich's teachings is when it comes to values, many times those are formed from the inside out. In other words, this is who we want to be. But you also need to have this aspect of values, and who you are as a company need to come from the outside in. That means you need to interview your customers, whom you're trying to impact and serve and the value you're trying to deliver for them. Because if you're only coming up with values internally, then you're missing a big piece of what drives your business forward, which is ultimately delivering value for your customers and those stakeholders. And so, for me, I always want to take a look at the values first if they're written in really flowery language. But it's not clear to me how I, as an employee, what I would need to do behaviorally in terms of my behaviors to live out integrity at Acme Corporation. That's where we need to start. First, I think there needs to be an understood set codification of values written in behavioral terms so that people know what success looks like. And I found that is pretty much the first step with any organization I've partnered with in getting some clarity around is the values actually being behavior that people understand, as opposed to flowery language that's on a poster.

Okay, so two things there. Go ahead. Can you define values for us? And then secondly, give us an example of what you're talking about?

Sure, absolutely. So values basically are those.

There's. There's sets of principles that are important for people to live out. And so, for example, I listed one of integrity. And so a behavioral indicator that I like to say of integrity. One of those could be, do you follow through on what you said you're going to do?

So if you made a promise to another employee, you made a promise to your boss, you made a promise to a customer, did you follow through on delivering on what you said you were going to deliver? That to me are the nitty gritty details of taking something from saying, okay, we have this concept of integrity, and saying, you know what, we're going to move it down a level to a description and say integrity for us at Acme Corporation means you need to follow through on what you promised to a customer, to another employee, to another staff member, or your boss here at the organization.

Because at the end of the day, people can only remember so many things. And what I have found is the more that you really drill down and you don't have any more than about three, maybe four values in your organization, then most people are going to be able to remember those. Especially if there's spaced repetition and those things are being practiced and rehearsed and also reinforced and celebrated. People need to be nominated and recognized whenever they're living out those values. When those things are modeled and you consistently reinforce those, that's when people go from having an intellectual understanding of what integrity means at Acme Corp. To.

I know behaviorally, this is the thing that I need to do when I'm in this situation and there's tension, I know what I need to do behaviorally because I know that integrity means I need to follow through on what I promised I would do for that other person.

Yeah. So what I think I'm hearing you say is companies need to have their values, maybe the way they currently have them, but then have them defined in behavioral terms so that people know what it actually means. Like, what does this mean? Yeah, you said integrity. I get it. And everybody's got integrity written down somewhere. But what do you mean by that here at Acme?

That's exactly right, Gary. At the end of the day, one of the things I've learned from, from some communication experts is, as many of us would like to think, we're really good at communication, we aren't very good at it, at least in terms of communicating the other person leaving feeling like they have clarity around what they're supposed to do. So we may feel like internally, hey, I did a really good job of telling that person what's expected and what needs to be done. But what you just did there is a perfect example. You did a reflective listening and questioning technique. You said, so if I'm hearing you correctly, those simple little steps to clear up the communication is so important. And that's where codifying the values and moving it from the flowery language to, hey, here are three examples behaviorally of what it means to live out integrity. Those are the things that people will eventually know and understand and be reinforced for. And that's how you're going to get your values lived out in the organization in a way that really matters and ultimately that makes sense to them.

Do you find that most companies articulate the same values or do you? I mean, is there like a same three that keep showing up over and over with all the different companies you work with, or are they all over the board?

Yeah, there definitely is like a Top three. And those top three would be trust, integrity, and service. At least in the work that I do, those are the three that come up the most often. Now, what's interesting is that can be expressed in some different shades, one degree of separation from another for each company. But in terms of what that's mostly landing on, it's landing on the same types of concepts that the company believes are important, not only internally, but to make sure that they're delivering the appropriate value to their external stakeholders.

Okay, so now you've gone in, you've looked at the company values, you've seen that.

Maybe they weren't, but now they are written out in behavioral terms so that it's more clear on exactly how we behave based on these shared values. Then what happens?

Now we got to reinforce them, and we've got to do it kind of what I call spaced repetition. And by that I mean this can't be something that we just do like once a month. It's got to be something that's done on the regular, maybe once every couple weeks. And the reinforcement piece is, if you have any type of award or recognition program, I highly recommend that you either align it to living out the values in your organization or you come up with a separate one specific for living out the values, because it's really important. And so what you're going to do is you're going to have this recognition program that says, hey, this week we want to nominate and recognize people that we've seen do something that relates to living out integrity. As a reminder, here's the three behavioral characteristics of what integrity means. Acme Corporation, let's nominate and celebrate people that you've seen do that this week. So you need to consistently do that and make sure that you're reinforcing people, that they're being caught in the moment and celebrated and appreciated. This is the other piece in ways that matter to them. Not the way we want to recognize and appreciate them, but ways that they want to be shown appreciation, recognition for living out those values. That's critically important. And again, this is something that's gotta be consistently done over time. Whenever you bring somebody new on staff, you need to make sure that they're being reinforced at a certain cadence as well for living out those values. Well, that's how you get people pulling in the same direction. That's how from an organizational behavior perspective, you get people focusing on the right behaviors and ultimately how you develop habits over time. Because this isn't just something where you say, hey, as part of orientation, you're going to hear about our values. And we have these posters that are on a wall. Now, the way that you actually do it from a behavioral perspective is you got to practice it, you got to model it, you got to reinforce it. And you need to be doing that on the regular throughout the year with your people. And then eventually what's going to happen is those things are going to become more automatic processes for people. They're going to know it like the back of their hand, and that's what you eventually want. So that whenever certain situations come up and they're wondering, well, what should I do? More times than not, they're going to have the answer in their heart and in their head of how they should handle a difficult situation because they know what it means to live out integrity at Acme Corporation.

As we look at your why, how and what of how do we have a bigger impact? How do we solve the challenging problems we're facing?

We.

But the third critical piece to that is how do we preserve and enhance relationships? And so how do we create trusting relationships? How do we trust each other? So what part of a company, a successful organization, do you think do relationships play, especially trust in the relationship?

I think it starts with leaders being open, honest and real and authentic. And here's what I mean by that. Gary.

We'Re going to get into the mental health aspect now, if that's okay for a minute. I think this is really important.

For too long, many people have felt like they can't acknowledge mental health challenges that they have. In fact, most of the time when we even mention mental health, most people think of it in a negative light. Really, it's no different than physical health. Like we're all on the spectrum somewhere of mental health, whether it's more toward the positive end and having a really healthy lifestyle when it comes to our mental health, or toward the other end of really struggling and maybe even possibly having some mental illness. But we have a problem with stigma in this country with mental health. I share with leaders one of the quickest ways that you can build trust with your people is to acknowledge challenges you have, whether it's with mental health, whether it's with challenges in your job, challenges in relationships that you have. People do not want to work for a robot or with a robot. They want to work with someone that they think comes to work and has flaws, faults, hang ups, just like they do in life, too. And let me tell you, if you're a leader and you think that your people think you're perfect, I got news for it, they know you're not perfect, they might be able to point out your faults better than you know them yourself. And so I always, you know, encourage leaders. Make sure you're getting feedback on how you can be doing better, not just in terms of business operations, but as a human being. How can you do a better job of creating those connections? And so when we talk about trust, the first thing that people are looking for, when they're thinking to themselves, do I want to follow this person? Do I value their opinions? The first thing they're wondering is, do I feel connected to them? Do I feel like I can be who I am around them and be vulnerable? And the only way they're going to do that within a business relationship is if the leader takes that step first. And so I often encourage leaders, you don't have to share everything, but you need to be able to share and open up on those challenges. And I think the reason that leaders struggle with this in particular is because they're used to having the answers. They're high achievers. Obviously, they wouldn't be the leader in an organization, typically, without being very successful. And so there's this concept of don't show your flaws, don't show your faults, don't talk about those. But I think it's very important when you're trying to build a culture of trust with your people where they are going to feel like they're respected, they're heard, they're seen for who they are. It's important that leaders model that first and acknowledge their faults, admit the times that they were wrong, talk about the things that they're challenged by, and don't just share that with your inner circle. You need to share that with everyone, to build a connection with everyone, because that's what they want to do, is connect with you at a high level. And so when we talk about building trust in an organization, yes, it's important to define what trust is. But what's just as equally important is those behaviors we say, that show how we're being successful at living out trust. Leaders have got to live that out. And one of those things is by being open and honest and moving beyond certain stigmas that leaders often have of thinking, I can't share my faults, I can't share the things that I'm struggling with. Yes, you can. Your people want you and expect you to do that. And that's how you build trust.

So what do you say to the leader? Because I've heard this a lot lately. I've heard leaders of organizations Say things like, I've tried all this connecting and being vulnerable stuff and all it's got me is a lot of extra.

Stuff I got to deal with. But all I really want is someone to get the job done.

So it has added a lot of drama and trauma at their work that they have to deal with in order to get the same process done. And I've heard this over and over lately by people who've tried the EQ and all this other stuff and said, man, that all sounds great on paper, but I just want this moved from here to here. I don't want to know all that other stuff. I just want something done and I want to add to that or I want to hear your perspective on how you think that will affect the rapid automation or movement towards robots and towards having a workforce that is a robot versus a human. I know that's way out there, but it's coming fast. I just heard this speaker when I was in, in Florida that's an AI expert and he owns a robotics company and he was saying that it's coming faster and faster now because employers are tired of having to deal with all the extra stuff. So I'd love your perspective on that.

Absolutely. Yeah. I think the first thing we probably should consider, there's probably context a little bit. Certainly there are going to be jobs that are replaced by automation and they should be replaced by automation. For example, fry cook type thing. I've seen where there's restaurants in California that they already have the automation and the robots now that are rotating fries and doing stuff, stuff like that. Right. What we need human beings working on, where human beings deliver value is in solving complex problems. When we're using our higher order cortical skills, not doing mundane, repetitive work. Those things absolutely should be automated. And so when I think of, you know, typically the executives you referenced and certainly the ones I've heard from when they're talking about frontline employees and maybe dealing with some of the stuff of getting into the vulnerability and stuff like that. I certainly understand if you're running a fast food restaurant, maybe some of those things aren't necessary because the job itself by definition is very rote and mundane. And so you know that it's going to be high churn. It's probably not a destination employer type job where someone sees themselves staying there doing that type of job for a long time. But when we talk about other types of work where we are solving complex problems, I think that's where you better make sure as the leader that you are developing those core relationships, because otherwise you are going to struggle to get the top quality millennial and Gen Z talent moving forward. Because there is a high expectation from those specific talent pools to work for companies that care about them as a person. And that's not going to change. They will go find another gig. They will start their own business. They have come up with very creative alternatives for what to do outside of working for your company if you are not showing that you value them. So I absolutely agree with you, Gary, that when it comes to the rote, the mundane type of work that's very repetitive and simplistic, that's going to be replaced by automation, probably don't need to spend a tremendous amount of time banging your head against the wall investing in vulnerability programs. However, for organizations that are trying to deliver stakeholder value, solving very complex problems in the world, you are going after the top talent in order to solve those things. And one of the drivers now, whether they like it or not, we just talked about it, is people want to be valued and respected by their employer and that means all of who they are. And one of the people on our podcast with Iron Me, she's a Gen Z futurist. Her name is Daniel Farage. She shared something with me that just blew me away. And she said that bad leaders and bad companies can no longer hide from the talent pool when it comes to Millennials and Gen Z. She said, we have eyes and ears everywhere and they're asking before they even go in for an interview or considering putting in an application to work for your company. Behind the scenes. They're going through all of their networks and they have very extensive networks because of the social media platforms down, the information they can get from Glassdoor and all these other sources of information about the company. They're doing their homework before they come in to really understand who the leadership is and what the company is beyond what's posted on the website. They're doing the nitty gritty of reaching out sometimes to some of the employees that work inside the organization and ask what's it really like to work there? And so this is the way that the talent market is going to be. You must actually follow through on the employer brand. And so if you think some of this stuff is fluffy and kumbaya, I get it. But here's the thing. I don't think you're going to have any fingers of blame to point at anybody else if you're struggling to get the talent when it comes to Millennials and Gen Z's, because these are the type of workplaces they demand now. And this is why we're seeing a rise in certified B Corps, where we're seeing a rise in esg. Quite many of the companies that are focusing on those kind of concepts are outperforming other companies that are focused on traditional capitalism concepts. And the S&P 500, we have the data to show that this is how people work best and contribute best. And we also now have the research that shows 90% of business value is in your people. That's what drives the value of the business. And so if you aren't making sure that you have the right practices and supports and strategies in place for people and what they also expect from their employer, then you run the risk of not having anybody left to boss around and tell them to just do their job anymore.

Love it. Love where you're going. So, last question for you. What's the best piece of advice that you've ever been given or that you've ever given to someone?

Best piece of advice ever got was from my mom.

She told me this was when I was in middle school.

She said there's going to be a lot of people you love in your life, but you have no business being around. And boy has that been true. Gary. And I don't know if you resonate with that or if your listeners do, but there have been so many people I've cared about and have had some amazing experiences with. But in the end, if I'm trying to live out my why and I'm trying to stay true to that, it's meant sometimes ending certain relationships or friendships. And that has been one of the best pieces of advice that ever got was from my mom.

I love that. So Jason, if there's people that are listening that want to connect with you, want to follow you, want to learn more about you, want to hire you, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you?

The best way is on LinkedIn. You can find me Jason Cochran. I don't think there's any other Jason Cochran's on LinkedIn, but if you're watching the show being recorded here today, you can actually match up the face. But I'm also the co founder of Duly to I Aspire. So you'd be able to see in a profile that that's the right person. So definitely LinkedIn to connect with me. You also can check out the companies do. Lead is D as in Dog U L E A D as in dog dot com. It's an automated employee experience platform. Learn a little bit of the work I'm doing there. And then also the other company is I Aspire, which is used in education to help support and nurture healthy cultures. And so you can go to I aspire app.com to learn about the work we're doing there as well.

And then you also have a very popular podcast.

That's right, absolutely. With Ira Wolf. The name of the show is the Geeks Geezers and Googleization Show. We bring on experts like yourself, Gary, I think you're going to be coming on with us here in a few weeks or months and we talk about the future of work and adaptability and what it's going to take to thrive in this never normal world, not just simply survive on LinkedIn. And you can also go to geekskeezersgoogleization.com to check out the website for the show too.

Great. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here today. Totally love what you're doing and want to support what you guys are up to. So thanks again for being here.

It was an honor. Gary, thanks for having me on. And thank you to the listeners for listening.

So now it's time for our segment on Guess Their why. And for this segment we pick somebody famous or somebody that's new to the news and try to figure out what we think their why is. And so this week I want to use Justin Thomas, the golfer. So Justin just won the PGA Championships last weekend and he overcame the large. He had the largest comeback in the history of the PGA Championships. I think he tied it. He was eight strokes back at one point and then came all the way back and won it in a three hole playoff. And so if you know who he is and you've seen this picture and you've seen how he interacts with his family, seen how he interacts with his friends, I think you'll find what I believe is that his why is to contribute to a greater cause, add value, have an impact in the lives of others. And I'm just basing this on how I've seen him interact with Tiger woods, how Tiger woods was his idol and then he got to meet him and now he's one of his best friends. And the way that he shows up for his buddies when they're winning, he's right there with them when they win. He's there at the last hole to congratulate them. And you can just see that he's that wants to contribute to other people's success. And so I believe that his why is to contribute to a greater cause, so thank you so much for listening. If you've not yet discovered your why, you can do so@why institute.com with the code podcast50. You can do it at half price. If you love the beyond youn why podcast, please don't forget to subscribe below and leave us a review or rating on whatever platform you're using so we can bring the why and the yos to a billion people in the next five years. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next week.

I really hope you enjoyed today's episode and that through today's guest you heard how important important it is to know your why and how impactful it can be in your life and the lives of those around you. Be sure to head over to why institute.com and discover your why today. Remember, the more you know about yourself, the more you'll know about others. I'm Dr. Gary Sanchez and I'll see you on the next episode.