Build Your Brand With The Right Messaging And Marketing With Michael Fishman

Welcome to beyond you'd why Podcast, where we go beyond just talking about your why and actually help you discover and then live your why. You see, we believe that knowing your why, that driving force behind every decision you make and every action you take, is the essential first step to really knowing yourself. It allows you to move forward faster and have a bigger impact. If you're already a fan of the show, then you know that every week we talk about one of the nine whys and then we introduce you to somebody with that why so you can see how their why has played out in their life. This show will be more powerful for you if you've already discovered your why. If you still need to do that, head over to whyinstitute.com and discover your why today. It'll only take you about five minutes. Now let's meet today's guest.

Hey everybody, this is a great episode you're going to love. I get to interview Michael Fishman. He is a marketing strategist and you will find him fascinating. He helped companies like Bulletproof Athletic Greens Thrive market, the DNA company Braintap, Prevention magazine to build their brands through the right messaging. His specialty is messaging and in this episode he shares with us how he does that. And in fact, he shares with us the most important word that you need to know in marketing. And it's not the word free. You'll see what it is in this episode. I have seven pages of notes from just listening to Michael Fishman. You're going to love it. Let me know what you think. Enjoy this episode. And so this week we're going to be talking about the why of make sense to make sense of things, especially if complex and complicated. So if this is your why, then you are driven to solve problems and resolve challenging or complex situations. You have an uncanny ability to take in lots of data and information. You tend to observe situations and circumstances around you and then sort through them quickly to create solutions that are sensible and easy to implement. Often you are viewed as an expert because of your unique ability to find solutions quickly. You also have a gift for articulating solutions and summarizing them clearly in understandable language. You believe that many people are stuck and that if they could make sense out of their situation, they could develop simple solutions and move forward. In essence, you help people get unstuck and move forward. So today I've got a great guest for you. His name is Michael Fishman. He's a growth advisor to founders. He's the leader of the Consumer Health Summit founder community and he's a strategic angel investor from his early 20s. After earning a bachelor's degree in environmental science and biology from Binghamton University, he knew that helping companies who help people to feel better, perform better and live longer would be the focus of his professional life. This is his purpose to advise founders for whom the currency of success is impact with valuation and financial rewards a natural byproduct. For over 30 years, he's been a leading advisor to founders on marketing positioning and accelerated customer centric business growth, helping to grow businesses many from inception, such as Bulletproof Athletic Greens, Thrive Market, the DNA company Suggestig, Braintap and Rodell, Prevention and Men's Health publishing brands, as well as many of the leading personal brands who serve large online customer communities. Michael, welcome to the podcast.

Honored to be here. Gary, Good afternoon. Thanks for, for the honor.

This is going to be fun. So there was a lot more to your bio that we're going to get into because it was about a page and a half long, but I would rather have us talk about it than me read about it. So, Michael, tell everybody, where are you currently at right now?

I'm in, I'm in Paradise Valley, Arizona, which is just adjacent to Scottsdale and Phoenix. Okay.

And so let's go back in your life. Let's kind of start when you were younger and where did you grow up and what were you like in high school?

Oh, wow. I grew up in Queens, which is part of New York City. In high school, I was insecure and shy and tentative and cautious.

I had a bunch of friends, but not the cool kids.

If you will. You know, I was on the tennis team. So that was a, that was a passion. And yeah, that kind of sums it up, I think.

Okay, so played tennis, were you much of a problem solver at that time? I mean, like, did people, did your close friends come to you and ask you to help them with different things that they were dealing with?

I don't think so, Gary. You know, I think when I, when I started to develop a sense of self, of the ability to be.

Introspective and to really learn what was residing within my heart, within my soul, within my range of capabilities, I think came early in college years. But, you know, I had a few friends in, in high school, I could see sort of the beginning or the germination of, of that part of me. But, but it, it certainly didn't, wasn't well developed nor did it have a lot of self expression.

When you were really young, say 5, 5 to 10 years old, was there a time where you had to kind of grow up fast, solve problems that might be coming, you know, that maybe a typical kid didn't have to deal with.

I think so. I don't know how well I solved them. You know, as, you know, with your prowess and your training, you know, some of. Some of what I experienced, I turned against myself or located or experienced some feelings of insufficiency.

You know, my. My dad was still on the planet. He wasn't physically hurtful, but he was very loud and scary.

So that was always something that I was. I actually learned, I think, at an. At around that time to really sense people's physiology, their face, their. Their voice, all the nuances of how people show up, essentially looking for danger signs.

Which is something that I, as you can appreciate, have a sensitivity for to this day. I think there were some survival skills there handled very poorly or not at all.

But it was, look, every child has something.

What I experienced wasn't tragic, but at the same time, it was consistent and hurtful in many ways and something to really.

Like, dive into and really explore later on. Yeah.

And, you know, that's what's really common about people that have the why of makes sense. And that's why I asked you that. So for those of you that are listening, I didn't kind of pull that question out of nowhere. It's very common for somebody who's really good at solving problems and figuring things out quickly that at a very young age they had to do that. And oftentimes it was a situation just like what you're talking about, where a parent was a challenge in one way or another, and when they come home, you got to quickly figure out, okay, what's happening? Are they having an issue now or not having an issue? What do I got to do? Who do I got to protect? All that kind of stuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so what. And the reason I asked you that is because oftentimes that then translates into how. How they are in middle school and how they are in high school. But you were saying that maybe in high school that hadn't really come out quite as much yet until you got to college.

Yeah. Well, it's interesting because in middle school, I was actually quite talkative. I was always academically quite strong in my house. You had to be. That was the focus of everything. But I was actually quite talkative, and I did very high marks academically, and. And then I'd get a U for unsatisfactory conduct.

So there's, you know, there was a very talkative, you know, Sort of garrulous side to me that was very consistent in middle school. And it felt like it surfaced in middle school, maybe around the time of puberty or that sort of thing. But then in high school, I think I went back underground.

Because I really sort of. I think it resided within me, but I didn't. It wasn't like I was editing it or containing it. I think I put a. I think I closed it and threw out the key. You know, that kind of a, of a survival tactic. Yeah. You know, my mom, like in High School, 15, 16, she'd noticed me getting frustrated or getting tense or getting angry, and she would see me grip my teeth and literally stuff those emotions, whatever they were, because there was no space to say it, There was no safety or space to express it. So I would just bury it. And of course, that's something that I still am always committed to allowing to be open and allowing for that healthy self expression and not to be loud and not disproportionate expressions of anger, but just to allow myself to feel and to say what I'm feeling in a. In an effective way.

Okay, so now you graduate from high school, you went off to college. And where did you go to college?

Binghamton University, which is the state, one of the state universities in New York.

Okay, and what was that experience like for you?

That was a great experience. I mean, that was my first taste of, I guess what we could call freedom, you know, being on my own, living, you know, in the dorms for two years and then in a, in a rented house, the junior and senior years, making friends, you know, a few of which I have to this day. I'm 62 now. I went to university at 17 and a half. You know, that was, that was fantastic. You know, I think, you know, you. I considered myself to be at that time, I think I would have said sensitive, which essentially was a euphemism for like victim.

You know, I, that was when I began to go inward, began to feel, began to express, but inside of a frame of locating myself as the victim of my childhood, a victim of situations instead of what I later learned to be, instead of that, the effect to be at cause and to. And also, of course, as, you know, to not interpret or assign different aspects of insufficiency to myself as an outcome of things that had happened. Right. I mean, there's what happened and then there's the story you tell yourself about what happened. Right. Very familiar to you, of course. And so once I had, you know, once I had the, you know, later on. Well, maybe you'll get to later on. But I later learned about the facts and the story we attach to the facts and the power of dismantling the bridge between or the collapsing of the two.

Okay, so what did you.

Major in college? What was your major?

Environmental studies with a focus on biology.

Why did you pick that?

I was always a science student, you know, I mean, I was a decent writer, you know, English and so forth. But science seemed to be the natural affinity for me, biology, chemistry. So nobody pushed me there. It just was always the focus, even in high school. That's where I did any specialty work that I could. And I also.

One of the summers during undergraduate years, I studied at Cornell's marine laboratory, which is about 10 miles out in the ocean off of Maine.

So that was my academic major. But I took as many electives as I could in Shakespeare, jazz history.

Creative writing, other sorts of things. I guess also that I. That appealed to me very naturally.

You know, because I think I have a right brain, left brain bridge in many respects. And so art and design, creativity, writing, music.

Lights me up big time.

Okay, so you graduate from college and then off to your career. What was your first job out of college?

First job was working in a number of record companies during the university years, in addition to my academic work, I was involved with the radio station. I was on the air for four years with a regular show of jazz programming. So I. So I worked for a number of record labels in New York. I wrote. I was writing record reviews and interviewing musicians for several different music magazines at that time. And that lasted about a year. Year. If I knew then what I knew now about perseverance and stamina, I would have stayed in that field. I certainly have no regrets. But you know, when I was 22 and. And the music business looked even then quite precarious, I pivoted and did something else which led to me, which led to where I am today, which was just to take an entry level job in a marketing agency in New York.

Okay, and so off to New York from there. And then.

What marketing firm was that? One of the larger ones or just kind of an entry level all the way around?

Yeah, it was a very small marketing. This is pre. Internet, of course. This is early 80s in direct response marketing, principally direct mail.

Which actually is in many respects a more sophisticated science than Internet marketing because of the cost of physical mail. When you mail millions of pieces, you have to know you're not going to get hurt. But this was a. This was a firm that in the Mailing list business. That was really a kind of in a com, a commodity mindset. There wasn't a lot of thinking going on there. I didn't have any mentors there.

But I really found my way into marketing by realizing all on my own, I mean, it was hidden in plain sight. It was right there to see. And I saw it. That understanding what people will do when presented with a piece of mail or these days an ad online, you know, understanding what people will do, what is that mechanism? What is that interface? What do the eyes do? What does the brain do? What is that person aware of? What are they not aware of? All the dynamic, all the consciousness and unconscious dynamics of that moment when that piece of mail comes out of the mailbox. At that time, the psychology and the dynamics of that were fascinating to me. And when I dove into it on my own, really self taught, it enabled me to develop a really reliable predictive power to understand what audiences would respond to what offers. So that was, that was the beginning of, of, of my work in, in marketing, in the marketing world.

So what do you mean by what audiences will respond to?

Well, thank you for the, for the question.

So as an example, we all, I mean, there are still magazines around, although they're not quite as robust as they used to be. But when we open up a copy of Sports Illustrated or Cosmopolitan or, you know, whatever your readers are enjoying, your listeners are enjoying, there are ads in the magazine and that's ad revenue to that publisher, right? Companies pay money to put ads in the magazines. So in a very similar way, companies can pay that same media outlet, Sports Illustrated, Cosmopolitan, whoever, other advertisers, instead of taking an ad in the pages of the magazine, can mail to that readership and go direct to their mail, their mailbox. Right? So.

If, you know, I mean, as an example, one of my early clients was Prevention magazine, still a flagship product in the category. And one of my first assignments was helping them to locate new prospect lists to mail an offer for a Prevention magazine. So there, so there were many lists of people that were reading other health publications. It stands to reason if they're reading this other newsletter on health, they have an interest in health. They might say yes to prevention. But the other thing that I came to realize also is that unlike a lot of things we could mention, bird watching, quilting, woodworking, those are niches. If you want to sell something in those categories, you need to find people who do it, because you're not going to convince anybody to start by asking them to read your magazine. But health we all are going to deal at some point. Now you can start taking good care of yourself, 20s, 30s and 40s, prevent all the stuff that could happen later. Or maybe you're 60, 70, 80 and you have certain health challenges. But either way, what I was able to show them, even in my early 20s, I thought, well, health isn't a niche. Health is everybody. Sooner or later we can actually mail to other kinds of lists other than lists having anything to do with health, if we know that the people on that list are the same set of characteristics that read Prevention. Let's say they're women, let's say they're in their 60s or 70s, and let's say they've been known to purchase something through the mail before, which is an important behavioral precedent.

And so I was able, with a high degree of accuracy, to help them grow their business and ultimately grew like a 400 million dollar book business behind the Prevention flagship brand by understanding A, health is not a niche and B, what other kinds of prospect lists can we mail to or can we promote to that will say yes in numbers as robust as mailing a list of people known to be reading about their health?

So you figured out a better way by thinking outside the box to come up with something that's going to work better.

I mean, they had a number of limiting beliefs, most limiting of which, most suffocating of which was that they had to locate people who had previously expressed an interest or shown an interest in their health. And to me that was completely unnecessary because I surmised that everybody deals with their health sooner. Or if you're in your 30s, for the most part, you're preventing things. If you're in your 60, 70, 80, you may have a challenge of one or more kinds. And so that was the beginning of just that one realization. Doesn't mean I'm brilliant. I just noticed what they hadn't noticed.

So once you did that for Prevention magazine, did you stay at the same firm or were you, did you go to your another firm or start your own firm or what happened to you next?

I stayed. I was at that firm for another year or two and then I moved over to another competitive competing marketing firm and was there for about 20 years. Oh, before going out on my own, really just a couple years into the Internet, you know, early 2000s, you know, Amazon kind of got cooking in 97, 98. So just as a benchmark. But early 2000s, I left the firm that I had been with for a little over 20 years and have been on my own since Then, and also really at that time, migrated over to E commerce as well.

As, you know, Gary, the tactics and the specifics of the Internet are very different than the tactics and the specifics and the dynamics of offline marketing. But the psychology is the through line. As long as human beings are constituted the way we currently are.

Psychology will always be the constant that we can look at and rely on to communicate clearly and compassionately and effectively.

So what are some of the things that you've learned about the psychology.

That.

Are similar with offline and online marketing? Like what would be.

Give us an example.

Yeah, well, I mean, every field has its lingo, every field has its jargon. And no matter what field you might be in, let's say speaking to your viewers and your listeners.

There'S the tribal language. They're the language that the practitioners really know. And then newcomers may be more than likely less fluent.

So as an example.

A couple of the guidelines I have for clear, compassionate communication and compassionate meaning not just being nice to people, but speaking in a way that they can understand and appreciate the value of what's being said.

One is to be not just easily understood, but impossible to misunderstand.

Which is actually a huge difference, by the way. Another one is you want your prospects to understand you. You also want them to feel understood by you.

Big difference.

Say that again.

You want your prospects to understand you.

But you also want them to experience feeling understood by you.

I mean, the way that happens is they. They can understand you if they understand the words that you use to describe your business or the way you can help them. They feel understood by you when you use the words they would use.

If you use a lot of words they never use, like, let's just say the phrase optimal wellness.

There's not a human being that ever went to a doctor and said they wanted optimal wellness. But you see, brands use the term all the time because it's generally used in a desire to sound smart or legitimate or to prove something. So people might understand what optimal wellness means so they can understand you if you say that, but they don't feel understood by you because you don't speak the same language. You know, if. If you say we're just going to help you feel so much better. Okay, I get what that means, and that's how I would say it, too. So now we're connected because we linguistically are a match, you know, and because here's the. Another aspect of this, Gary. When we put words in front of people, as I said, when we put words in front of people that they understand but don't use, there's a break. They can understand you, but they don't feel understood by you because we're not speaking the same language. The other piece is if you put a word in front of them that they do not know.

They don't know what the word means, they don't blame you, or they don't blame the brand that use that word, they blame themselves because that brand just gave them a piece of evidence that day to confirm their feelings of insufficiency around their intelligence. So you give them, if you use a word they don't know at all, they don't blame you, they blame themselves. And guess what? They leave. They're gone. Because as we can all appreciate any reminder of our feelings of insufficiency around intelligence, any experience that we're not smart enough, not a good feeling, and no one would hang out for that. These are some of the dynamics of language, of being clear and being compassionate that either engage people where they identify the relevance to them of what is being promised. So the prefrontal cortex identifies relevance. The amygdala, as you know, where the fight or flight response generates, tells that human animal, you're safe here.

The front of the brain and the back of the brain both give a green light. And now that brand or that coach or that person online has earned the right of the next few moments of that person's life, literally earned the right to say a little more. But it requires the marriage of a green light in the amygdala and the prefrontal cortex. It's relevant and the animal experience safety. Because a rattlesnake and a typeface can both be dangerous. Danger is to the brain. Danger is danger. Now, consciously we know a rattlesnake can hurt us. A picture on a website or a typeface can't hurt us. But there still is the amygdala, the fight or flight response to contend with. And people don't sit around conscious of that. They just leave websites.

Wow, I hear you using the word feel an awful lot. And that's maybe not what is typically talked about or thought about when we're talking about marketing. You know, a lot of people are, well, how do you get them to take action? Or how do you get them to buy? It's just, let's get them to buy. You talk a lot about feeling. Why is that?

Well, thanks for noticing. I hadn't noticed.

Well, I think, you know, when you, when you own an online business or most businesses are online these days, or at least have an online component. Whether you're serving a hundred clients or millions of clients, I see that business not as your property. I mean, it is, but it's a dialogue. It is a dialogue between the brand or the individual and each person that comes to that platform, that web platform. So in a. In a relationship, you know, feelings of safety, feelings of relevance, feelings of hospitality, feelings of compassion, feelings of kindness, feelings. You know, I mean, part of. Part of it really is feelings, because you can ask people, you know, how did you, you know, yes, you got the supplement on time. Yes, it helped your headaches. Yes, it did. You know, you got it on time. It did what it was supposed to do. Great. How do you feel about the relationship with this business? Did you feel that they took good care of you? Were things happening for you or were things happening to you? Was there service? Was there hospitality? Did you feel honored throughout that process? I mean, that's what creates the continuation and ultimately the longevity of relationships, I would suggest, is how people feel about it, even if they don't sit around thinking about it or even say it that way. I think that's what's required. You know, I feel this is valuable. You know, I've. You know, I feel this product helped me, you know, those kinds. So I think. I love the question. Thank you for noticing. And I think a lot of the continuation of business, of business relationships, either with consumers or professional relationships. A coach and a client, a lawyer and a client. I think if we really look, people stay in those relationships or they don't because of how they feel.

Yeah.

What is it?

People don't care how much, you know, they care how you make them feel. I don't think that.

Most people notice that or. Or pay attention to it. I'm sure that I don't enough, because it's not maybe in the forefront like you're talking about. It sounds like there's certain questions that you ask before a piece were to go out, were to be publicized or to be put out to the market, or there's certain criteria that it has to pass, if you will. Before, if I was going to, you know, give something to you to say, okay, I need your blessing on this, Michael. Are there certain things that it needs to pass in order to get by you?

Oh, my goodness, 100%. And by the way, I haven't touched a piece of direct mail in over 20 years. But, you know, I. Everything I do is E commerce. But still, the answer is yes. And look, here's the very interesting thing. No matter what the offering is. It could be coaching, it could be a health product, could be a fitness product, could be legal services, could be anything. Could be house cleaning. The special point of differentiation, what I call the flag in the moon. You go to the moon, you put your flag down, you're the only one there. It's just you. What is your flag in the moon? What is your point of differentiation that makes you special, unique, different, better, whatever that point of superiority, or. Or, you know, something, you know, superior to the marketplace. Different, new, more effective. However, if you articulate that point of differentiation in a way that still sounds like all the noise out there, you become dismissible because the newness and the innovation in what you're describing gets missed. Just because the voice of your brand or the board, just the voice of what you're saying, even as a professional, sounds like the rest of the clutter and noise that's out there. So not only is it important to express the point of differentiation, but to say it in a way that stands out and doesn't sound like the whole chorus that's out there. You can be different but still be dismissible if you sound like everybody else.

So I'm always. I'm always looking for the point of differentiation. And does it stand out in its category by having contrast to the vo, to the. To all those voices that are out there that sound similar?

I have a. This will be. What I think I heard you just say was you need to have a point of differentiation said in a different way.

You said it better than I did. Thank you.

Yes, you said that, but I just wrote it down and I don't know that, you know, you said that, but it's kind of interesting. Yeah. Point of differentiation said in a different way. Would you have, like, an example that you can think of? I know I'm catching you off, off guard, but is there an example of a. One that you can think of a company that maybe was struggling before and standing out and differentiating himself, and then they went through and worked with you and you guys created a different way to differentiate them.

Yeah. Working with a company in what we call the ready to drink space, meaning you can go to Whole Foods and buy a can or, you know, a drink. Ready. A beverage. This. This uses the ingredient kava, which is a plant. A plant product that has a calming. It doesn't. It's not a recreational product. It doesn't. It all it does is have a minor, relatively minor calming effect.

But the language we're working with at the moment is connect at your Best. Connect at your best. You can connect at your worst by consuming all kinds of other things, but connecting at your. So it's the contrast to doing anything at your worst, intoxicated or messed up in some way or even just disproportionately angry. But connect at your best. And it really tracks to the origins of the product in the South Pacific and what it's known for, some of its connections to spirituality, at least in terms of its origins from where it comes from.

That's one example. God, I have so many.

I'm advising a doctor in Florida who treats men. And the message there is be your absolute best again.

Be your absolute best again. Any man, 40 or 50 at least, can point to something, even minor.

That, you know, I used to be stronger. I used to be this or I used to be, you know, more stamina, whatever the. Whatever it might be, you know, be your absolute best again. Another one, great example, no longer in use, but worked and performed measurably, performed for many years for women's hormones. And, you know, as. As, you know, as, you know, we've all heard, hopefully not experienced, but, you know, for when women's hormones are in dysregulation, you know, there's. There's a lot of discom. Physical and emotional discomfort for her and many times the people around her. And this, this tagline was.

For women, at home in your body at last.

Wow, that's really good.

For a lot of women in that position, their own body feels like an opponent, almost like enemy territory, Right? And so the words, I mean, at home in your body is very soothing, very calming. At home in your body, comma, at last. And the two words at last, what do they mean? They're acknowledging all the years of frustration, pain and discomfort where the problem was not handled. So those two words at last are a huge acknowledgment.

Of the. Of the months or even years where the, where the problem wasn't effectively addressed.

The other, the other. I'll say one last thing if I can, about that and the other. You know, a lot of marketers, you know, people in marketing will tell you the most powerful word in marketing is free. And I know all about this. I can give it, you know, I grew up in free. Indirect response. But starting things with free creates an expectation, ongoing in that relationship, that people have an expectation for more free, more discounts, more of this sort of thing. And these days, with every. Not only individuals, but just brands have a soul, brands have a voice. For me, the most important word, the most effective and powerful word in marketing is let's let.

Because it immediately indicates a partnership. Even if I never meet you and I read your blog or I buy your online course, let's get you healthy again. Let's have. You have. Let's get you all the success you ever wanted. Let's have your relationship be happier. Anytime someone sees let's without thinking about it, they know that we're going to do it together. Let's go skiing, let's go to the movies.

There's a togetherness, there's a partnership. So it immediately takes away from that person that they were in it alone.

So when did you realize how powerful let's is?

I don't use it every day, but it's always one of my number one favorite words. You know, I don't, I don't put it everywhere that I, that I go, but in terms as an advisor. But I'm going to say it's easily a decade.

Yeah, it's easily a decade. I was working with a woman who's a founder of a health coach training program. This line is no longer in use either, but it was extremely, measurably productive.

And her field of area is nutrition and fitness and weight loss. And the line that we came up with was, let's discover what you're really hungry for.

And really was in italics indicating it's not food. Let's discover what you're really hungry for. It's love, it's affirmation, it's safety. I mean, love, affirmation and safety pretty much cover it.

Yeah.

Acknowledgement. Wow. So those, you know, those. And, and as you can appreciate, I think those don't sound like the stuff you run into all day long in those categories.

No.

And you can't look away once you hit that line. If you're, if it's relevant to you, there's a pattern disrupt. You're not scrolling, you're not swiping. All of that frenetic energy stops because they pierced your heart and soul.

I've got six pages of notes that I've had since we started, Michael.

Well, I'm very flattered. I hope they're yours to use. Thank you.

Well, how do you go about helping someone discover or develop or create or manifest or whatever word you use? Their tagline.

Yeah. I'm very grateful for the question. And it's a very important question because most coaches, advisors, professionals, brands.

They either sit in a boardroom or go to the Bahamas for three days and sort of brainstorm it on a whiteboard and Try. It's all well intended. I'm not knocking it. I just think there's a better way. Others will pay an agency a lot of money, essentially, to say, please tell me who I am.

And so things in my experience, because I. I always work with a scoreboard. I want the measurability that what I'm doing is performing mathematically and financially. So I don't believe taglines are composed. I don't. You know, when they're. When they're clever or kitschy or, you know, when they sound like they came from a boardroom, they don't. They're not, by and large. I mean, there's plenty that came from a boardroom that are out there working. But, you know, by and large, especially now, where every company has a voice and a soul, I would suggest taglines are at their most powerful and most penetrating to the heart and soul of the reader. They're not composed so much as they are revealed. And by revealed, I mean, if it was you, Gary, I would say it lives inside you. And we're. And in the next few hours or the next day or two, we're gonna. We're gonna locate it like an archaeological dig. You brush away the sand, you brush away the pebbles, and then you find that gleaming jewel that was buried in the sand, right? So to me, and I've done this probably.

40 or 50 times in recent years in a man. And this. This isn't the gospel truth. A fly on the wall would not see this. But it's a way to hold the process.

We're not composing it. We're revealing it, because it's a deep inquiry into the heart and soul of the founder, why she or he is doing what she's. What they're doing. There's always a reason. There's always a reason. And, you know, in a. In a conversation between, you know, trusted, you know, humans.

And like you said to me before, you know, you've used the word.

Feel quite a bit. When I work with people on their tagline, and tagline feels dismissive. It's, you know, I mean, supports product development. It supports who to hire. It supports how it's a congruency test for all the decisions in the business. Right. When I go through this process, I'll. Let's say I. I'm with someone and I hear a woman use the word freedom in the. In the period of a few minutes, and I'll say, I just want to acknowledge I've heard the word freedom a number of times in the last few minutes. What does freedom mean to you? Just like you said, what does feel mean to me? I'll say, what does freedom mean to you? You know, and it's a part. It's partly hearing that word and noticing the pattern, and it's partly noticing their physiology there. Are they joyous, are they somber, are they crying? Or, you know, what's. What do I see on their face that's connected to the words that are coming out of their mouth? And especially when there's a pattern.

And then I'll say, what does the word freedom mean to you? And we'll go down that path. So I'm always listening and watching.

For patterns, and usually the tagline will actually come out of the person's mouth. They don't even know it. They're in a flow state. They're speaking, and all of a sudden I'll say, what'd you just say? Like, say that again.

And a lot of times, lightning hits the room and bang, it's done. Because it got revealed.

You know, and it's a promise to the world. It's very clearly articulated. It passes every test, some of which I shared earlier.

Passes every test you could throw at it, and originated in the heart and soul of a human being with a purpose. And that's why it lands so powerfully with the reader or the listener, or however it reached the eyes or. And. Or ears of the prospect. It connects as deeply as it originated.

Wow.

It's interesting because where we started is almost where we're finishing, which is, as a kid, you were put in a position of trying to figure out what's really going on here. And what do I really notice? What are the little things I'm picking up on to try to figure out what's actually happening here? What are we. What. What are we really trying to say here?

Yeah.

And that's what you've done your whole life, and now you've got systems and processes for it, but you were doing it as a little kid.

But I'm. I'm. Thank you for noticing that I hadn't. I had not put those together. And I'm very grateful for your observation. Thank you.

Yes, it's. We do our why our whole life.

And it's what. It's why I would choose you and what makes you special. And so for those of you that are listening, Michael's why is to make sense of the complex and challenging. How he does that is by challenging the status quo, thinking outside the box, thinking different, pushing limits, and ultimately what he brings is that trusting relationship where others can count on him. And so, Michael, if people are listening, and I know we're running out of time, so I want to make sure that you get an opportunity if they're listening and say, man, I really want to work with him. I really want to know, you know, follow him, see what he's doing. What's the best way for people to get in touch with you? And who, what kind of people would you like to get in touch, have. Get in touch with you?

Well, it's a very kind question. Thank you. I typically advise, you know, coach advise founders principally, not limited to, but principally in wellness fitness or personal development.

On messaging, on positioning, on business growth. You know, of course, with some of the tools and things we've discussed. But, you know, I, I mean, I'm working now with a, I'm advising a woman who in turn coaches executives and, and other people who get in front of other people on, on speaking, you know, media and speaking skills, advising an E commerce site in golf apparel. And they're way, way up using some of the thinking along some of these lines. So if anybody's, if anybody feels an affinity for this kind of work.

I would just invite you to reach out. You don't need to be in wellness, fitness or personal development. If you're on purpose and you're passionate about what you do and it is a calling for you and the currency of success for you is impact, I'd be honored to talk to you. So please know that my DMs are open on both Instagram and Twitter. So either if you're on either of those platforms, most people have one or the other or both. So that would be best.

You probably better spell your last name.

It is Fishman. F I, S, H, M A N. And I took a lot of heat for that in, in grammar school. It was torture.

Well, Michael, thank you so much for being here today. I thoroughly enjoyed that. You got me. Like I said, I have seven pages of notes now and I. You got me thinking differently. Makes the little things right? The just a choice of a word is so powerful that you got to think more about it, I think, than so that it's on purpose versus not clear.

Yeah. Well, thank you, Gary. I'm honored for this visit. I'm honored for this conversation. I'm honored to have, you know, made a difference. If I have, you know, I, I point out things that are hidden in plain sight. So thank you for this honor. I really enjoyed it.

So it's time for our new segment, Guess the why. And I'M gonna pick Snoop Dogg. Snoop Dogg and I don't know a ton about Snoop Dogg. Obviously he's a rapper. Obviously he has stayed relevant for a long time. He's in a lot of commercials. Still, he's well liked by a lot of people. It doesn't seem like he's a big troublemaker, you know, that he's caught up into being a gangster and all that stuff. But that's just my impression. I'm not really sure. So if I had to go with what I think Snoop Dogg's why is, I'm going to go with contribute. I'm going to go with contribute. It just seems like he wants to help. He wants to be part of it. He wants to help other people do better as well. It's not only just about him. And that's my impression and I may be totally wrong. So I'd love to hear what you think Snoop Dogg's why is so thank you so much for listening. If you've not yet discovered your why, you can go to why institute.com with the code podcast50discoveryour why at half price. If you love the beyond your why podcast, please don't forget to subscribe below and leave a review and rating on whatever platform that you're using, because that'll help get us to more people. I really enjoy bringing the why and the yos to the world so that we can have a bigger impact and help 1 billion people live their life on purpose. So thank you so much for listening and I'll see you next week.

I really hope you enjoyed today's episode and that through today's guest, you heard how important it is to know your your why and how impactful it can be in your life and the lives of those around you. Be sure to head over to whyinstitute.com and discover your why today. Remember, the more you know about yourself, the more you'll know about others. I'm Dr. Gary Sanchez and I'll see you on the next episode.