From Robotic To Relationships

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Welcome to beyond you'd why podcast, where we go from just talking about your why to actually discovering and living your why. And today, we're going to talk about the why of trust. So if you remember people with the why of trust, these are people that, if you can trust them and they can trust you, the sky is the limit. There's nothing you can't do. They are people that often go beyond what's normally done to create a trusting relationship. They become experts in a given field so that they let you know that you can trust them, and they are the trusted source. And so today, I have a special guest for you. His name is Chris Davis. I met Chris a couple weeks ago. A couple weeks or a month ago, I went to a activecampaign course, and I walk in and I see this guy that is the exact twin of one of my really good friends that you're going to meet on a podcast soon. And I think, what is he doing in here? And it turns out that Chris is teaching this course now. Chris is the Director of education@activecampaign. He is responsible for creating a learning experience for employees and users alike to help them properly utilize marketing automation. This includes running workshops, hosting the ActiveCampaign podcast, developing curriculum, partnering webinars, and speaking at conferences. So he's got over 12 years of professional experience in the technology and business space. He is passionate about helping companies grow by the use of technology in their marketing. Chris, welcome to the podcast.

Gary, thank you so much for having me on. I was trying to stay silent while you.

Man, but I'm just excited. I'm excited to be here.

Well, it was fun meeting you at your event, but what was really interesting and exciting for me was when I said, all right, Chris, you ready to discover your why? And you pulled out your phone and tell us about that. How did that go?

So for all the listeners, Gary just. He just went totally off the script. I wasn't ready, everybody. I was like, yeah, let me check out, you know, Gary's app. He very engaging in the workshop. So I figured, you know, this guy knows what he's talking about. And I did it, and it read me like a book. I felt as if your app knew me, you know, like birth.

Yep.

How could this be so right about me? You know, I'm a leadership junkie and a very introspective and Analytical, individual. So it gave me the food that my mind needed to just really start processing it and assessing my life as it is now and as it has been and what has led me up to where I'm at right now.

So tell everybody a little bit about yourself. How did you get from when you were younger and how did you get into Internet marketing and automation?

Yeah, yeah, sure. So I grew up in Minneapolis and very, very nice neighborhood. I tell everybody I didn't grow up in a bad neighborhood. All my friends did.

My association. I found myself in some precarious situations. There was a point in my senior year where I was just making some bad decisions, man. I'm like, bad decision after bad decision after bad decision. And it was one particular decision where it really could have changed the trajectory of my life. And that's what really hit. I was two weeks from going to college, and I almost got into trouble. And. And I was just like, chris, you have to get out of here. Like, there's no time like now that you have to get out of Minnesota and just change your environment. So I went to college at Kansas State University and five years later graduated with a electrical engineering degree. And I specialize in digital electronics. So I got my bachelor's in electrical engineering, moved out to what, Ohio? Akron, Ohio. This is right around the time when LeBron was just coming in the league. That's the only reason why I knew what Akron was. I was like a cron. Is this a joke? You know, So I moved out there and this is. I think this is really the beginning. Right now I feel like I moved to Ohio to start a professional career in engineering without even knowing that there was a why to even consider. If you'd asked me then why did you do that? My answer would have been money. Just point blank. I have student loans. I need to pay back my student loans. What am I good at that can make me the most money? Math, analytical thinking, and, you know, figuring things out. So thus engineering. Many other careers could have fit that path, I find out later, but engineering was a thing, so I did that. And it's no surprise I enjoyed it. Gary. The first two years I'm talking about, I loved it, man. I was working with a diverse group of people. We're working on top secret applications. I have diamonds on my name badge, right? I've got to scan it in to get to certain places, Check. Just telling friends and family what I did and to see their mouth drop like, I loved it. And then after a few years, I realized that, and I'm Kind of like hindsight now. I didn't know it was taking place at the time, but I started losing my momentum. I started losing all of my encouragement and just like feeling very guilty because here I am as an electrical engineer working as a firmware designer at a government funded company and I'm not happy. And all of my friends are, you know, either without job or working trades or, you know, working very, very simple jobs. Not, not to say that's a negative thing, but in contrast, I was doing a lot better than them. So I felt like I didn't have the right to be unhappy, you know, but when I look back at it now, my why had run its course. You know, like being driven by money has never been me. I'm a relationship as. As we found out, I'm relationships. So check this out, Gary. When I took that Y app, man, it changed everything because now I can identify. Back then it was very much mundane, you know, day to day robotic behavior. I was working with engineers that, that were not personable. They were literally like human computers. So it was just weighing on me every day. I was just longing for interaction in some capacity, right? So I'm longing for interaction. At the same time I'm feeling guilty for not being happy because I'm making money, you know, making more money than everybody else. It's like, Chris, what else do you want in the world? Get off your high horse, buddy, and just be happy. I endured for five years, five more years. They were some of the hardest years of my life. And right now. And you know, during the time I was married, having babies, you know, building a family, all of that, a long way. And right in 2012, I believe 20, well, 2010, my wife got laid off and she's an engineer and she has an MBA as well. I guess I missed that. I have an MBA as well. And when she got laid off, Gary, my world shook because I was like, wait a minute. Because I'm artistic, so I love art and that's what I really wanted to go to school for. But everybody told me there's no money in that and you can't keep a job. You'll be working at the post office, you know, xyz. So everybody had promoted engineering as this untouchable profession. And here I am looking at my wife that is now immediately without a job. I was like, how does an engineer get laid off? This was unheard of. But it was again right around the time where the market had crashed and government funding had got pulled. So not understanding all those dynamics, I had so much trust in the corporate world. Right. And I had set myself to establish myself as an expert in coding and designing chips, so. So that I could be valuable in this space. And then right there, the corporate world broke its trust.

Wow. And, you know, I see this a lot, Kris, with people with the why of trust. Oftentimes in the military, same sort of thing, they feel like they're in the most trusted of places, but when their trust gets broken, then they have to leave. There's no way to stay there.

Yes. So I feel like earlier in my years, it was situations or entities that broke their trust with me. Mm. And then later in my career, up until now, it's more so been people. Right. And I'm talking about professionally. And so I have this entity of the corporate world that essentially posed as the way to go, and it wasn't. So as frustrating as that is, I tried to stay as long as I could for the sake of my family, But, I mean, you can only fake it for so long.

Yep.

Right. I mean, the second you start putting on that mask, there's a timer just ticking away. At some point, you're gonna get tired of wearing it or somebody just gonna take it off.

Yeah, exactly. And you did it for five years.

I did it for five years, Gary. So the fifth year, they did me a favor. They were like, hey, your services are no longer needed, buddy. Have a good life.

Thank you.

Right. So now whatever little trust I did have has totally been just gone. It's evaporated. So here I am without a job with three kids. My son was 4 months at 3 months at the time. I'm terrified, man. I don't want to go home and tell my wife. So it was that experience that led me to never go back to the corporate world. That one experience. And since then, I've had to reinvent myself in various capacities. I used to do graphic design, then web design, then email marketing, and finally found the space of marketing automation. And that's when things started to really pick up for me again. Because, you know, I go from one of the lowest points in my life to finding an industry that. That accepts me. You know, they take my logic. I can use my logical puzzle, figuring out way of thinking, you know, and apply it to small businesses instead of microprocessors and not just see an impact, but in doing so, I'm engaging with the business owner, I'm engaging with other people. So now I have the best of both worlds. I have the analytical side that needs that processing numbers and everything. And Then I have the people side.

And, you know, when you were talking about this in the workshop that I was in, the way you described it was, you know, essentially how I heard it was automating the relationship so that you build on that. Right? It's creating a relationship through automation where it's reliable and you can count on it and it's predictable. It's with the way that you think.

Yes.

You know, we talk about if what you do is in line with why you do what you do, you will have passion for what you do. And, man, did I feel your passion when you spoke.

Oh, yeah. So. So this has been now in the capacity that I operate now. So this, you know, I found the, the entrepreneur space and I found my niche and it was driven by my. Why unknowingly did not know it. Right. But being that trust was big for me. So I would go and I would stay up late and I would make sure that I'm. Reese, how do you automate a business? Right? Like, I don't want to be telling people, you know, you can just click a button and money will come in if that's not true. Now, I was open for it to be true, but let me do my research and figure out it's true because I want to be the trusted source. So that's actually what led me to my first job in the startup space with a startup called LeadPages. It was exactly that. Again, everybody, I'm telling the story from the past forward, but as I'm peppering in details from the future, so now that I'm at LeadPages, what that allows me to do is I get to see the other side of businesses because a lot of the Internet marketing businesses were using leadpages. So now I get to see how their businesses are functioning. Right. How they're running and I get to help and xyz. And then there's where the. Another breach of trust came. Right?

There's a common theme coming along here. Do not break. Yeah. For those of you out there that are going to meet Chris at some point, do not break his trust.

Right?

We'll leave.

We'll leave. Right? And I'm one of those people, since I have a big heart, I give people chances to restore themselves. Right. But you know, oftentimes when I've reached that point, you know, it's done deal. So I had seen it so many times. Not just one, not just two, not this three. Just so many times. I'm just like, I remember saying this to myself, Gary, everybody's A liar, right? I was going into work one day and I was like, nobody's making money online like they say they are, right? And I was just like, it's all a lie. So I went down that path. It was just like, oh, my, what am I doing? Who am I? What? What is there to be done? And how is business supposed to be run? So that was great. I'm thankful for every entity and every system that has broken my trust, because what it did is it made me push deeper to find the truth. And in that, I got sick of the Internet marketing space. And I said, you know what? This has to only apply to Internet marketers. Like, they're just trying to get rich. You know, it's. It's too many of them for all of them to have integrity. Right? So that's what led me to activecampaign. I said, listen, not only is this tool going to be the future of marketing online, but they have such a diverse user base. I'll be able to learn what it really takes to run a business with technology. And that has been true 100%. As you mentioned earlier, I do the podcast, the workshops, the webinars, and all that does is allow me to engage at a deep level with our user base of vast, vastly unique businesses and be me. I get to reverse engineer what's working right, report it to others so that they can benefit from the power of the application, and all along the while, I get to engage and make deep connections with people.

So for those of that are listening that don't know what active Campaign is, what is Active Campaign?

Yeah, activecampaign is a marketing automation platform. It's a tool that was created to help small businesses get competitive and stay competitive in this new age of digital marketing. So it has a CRM which allows you to organize your contact database, and then that's coupled with email marketing, so you can send messaging to your contact database at the appropriate time. And then the cornerstone of it is automations, which allows you to put a lot of the processes that you would be doing manually or it would take you to hire other people to do. It gives you the opportunity to employ technology to handle some of those processes for you, thus allowing you to operate your business as if you have 10 people on staff when it's really maybe one or two.

Yeah. And it's what I use for my business. And I really, you know, I've been through plenty of the others that didn't work very well for me or weren't easy at all to use an activecampaign has been way easier, way more useful, and I'm glad I made the switch. And this wasn't meant to be any kind of a promotion for ActiveCampaign. It's just that's who I happen to use. But when I saw you presenting and teaching and the way that you do it is with certainty and authority and. But also fun.

Yeah.

You know, very engaging. You could see your why coming through loud and clear. And to be honest, I can't look at somebody, Chris. I can't just pick somebody out of the off the street and look at them and know what their why is. Unless it's just a one of the whys that does stand out, like challenge. I could sometimes pick, but in your case, I wasn't quite sure what it was. And that's why once you took the why app and I and, you know, we both discovered your why of creating relationships based upon trust, all the rest of it made sense. Then I saw you for what you were bringing. And what's great about that is I know now that if you tell me something, you wouldn't say it unless it's true. You wouldn't tell me unless it's gonna work. I mean, you were to the point, direct, hey, man, this is the way it is. This is gonna work.

Yes, absolutely.

Do you think it would be valuable for your audiences in the future to know this about you?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, it was valuable for me because I do it, but I wasn't. I wasn't even conscious that I was doing it or cognizant of the fact of why I was right. So in my mind, I was thinking, you know what? I'm going before people. I want to help them, right? I want to make sure that their time is the best spent. But here's the truth. After I talked to you, Gary, it didn't matter if I was at a workshop with 10, 20, 34 people, whatever, or if we're just one on one in a coffee shop. I'm going to come out the same. Because my why is to be the trust, the trusted source. So it doesn't matter if it's a young kid, if it's someone old or younger, that's going to be me in any setting. So with that understanding, I mean, I can't tell you, a lot of times I walk away from these workshops that we do, and I'm hoping, like, I hope it was accurate. I hope they really learned something that could help move their business. And this was the first one, you know, sorry, everybody. I am Human, I must admit. But this is the first one. I wasn't thinking like that. I was really thinking about me.

That's great.

What this new information was. And right when I got to the airport, I called my wife and I was like, listen to what just happened to me, you know?

And how does she feel about your why of trust?

Personally? It resonated on an entirely different level because that led us to a very deep and honest conversation of what that looks like in marriage, you know, and what are some of the ramifications of it if it is not met or not adhered to. And then also, like, it gave us language to use with one another to really feed into that.

So here's the thing about the why of trust. For those of you that are listening, if you. If this is your why, or you have someone close to you, that it's their why. If they don't tell you, if you don't know that that's their why, then it's very easy to let them down. It's very easy to break their trust because you might do something inadvertently. You might tell them a little white lie, or you might do something that would inadvertently break their trust because you looked at it from your perspective of, well, that wouldn't bother me. But how do you feel if you find somebody told you a little white lie?

It's so hard for me, Gary, because what I found is that different personalities, they spend more time in their head before they speak, and other personalities speak without spending as much time in their head. So sometimes it could just be somebody processing out loud. Right. And if it's inaccurate, I'm immediately judging them.

Right.

Wait, that's not right. No, that.

Is just happening because I'm treating people like I expect people to treat me. Because, again, I'm analytical for one and two. I don't want to say anything that can't be trusted. Right? You can't validate. Go to the library, find a book, you'll read it. It's going to say the same thing. So I put a lot of thought in my speaking before I speak, but the other personality types do not. So I always have to factor in when. When I feel something's a little fishy, something doesn't smell right. I have to run it through the personality filter first. And if it does say, okay, they're this type of person, they're just processing, I'll extend grace. But when it comes to the point where somebody's just flat out lying, Gary, it is so hard. Even with forgiveness on the table, like I can forgive you. But for us to ever be anywhere close to the capacity we once were beforehand is practically impossible.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And so that's why I want to say to everybody who has this why there's a big responsibility that comes with it to let people know. Because if you don't tell them how important trust is to you, they will for sure screw it up. If you let them know, hey, if I can trust you and you can trust me, the sky's the limit. There's nothing we can't do. But if I can't trust you, then let's not really go there. Let's just not focus on our relationship. It gives them an opportunity to raise their hand and just say, yeah, trust is. It's that way for me, and I get it. And I'm not going to let you down. And it'll be fascinating because people won't let you down if they know. If they don't know, it's almost guaranteed they are going to let you down. Does that make sense?

Yep. Absolutely. I've seen it differently depending on leadership. I've been in some situations where leader as. As my leader has really identified, Listen, this guy I can rely on. And when I feel that I operate at an entirely different capacity, man, like, you don't have to tell me that. Like, if I can sense it from your actions, the fact that you're giving me, giving me tasks or projects to do, you're not checking in, you know, like, I can sense that you're comfortable. In fact, one of the greatest compliments I received from a CEO that I was. I was working under, he said to me, he said, chris, I haven't slept in months since I started this company. He says, I finally got a good night's sleep last night, a night just full of rest. And he was like, it's because I was no longer thinking about the marketing system and it failing. It was like, you had me at marketing system.

See, that's awesome. When you create a relationship with someone where it's based on trust, there's nothing better. Right?

Like, that was the thing. I want you to rest, you know, like, I want to take care of this for you. Like, I am the trusted source. Let me handle this. And you go ahead, Go about your business and do whatever it is you need to do. And just know when you come back, it's handled. If there were hurdles, if there were roadblocks, I've handled those as well.

Do you think it would be valuable for your current CEO and the current team that you work with to know this about you?

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I think they should know this about me as well as everybody in the company, because what happens. And I've seen this. So we talked about good leadership. Let me. Let me define good, because that could be very subjective. But when I say good leadership, I'm talking about you're doing a good job being in tune with who you're leading and what they need to get the most out of them. Right. So that's when I. When I say good is like you're into your people, you're inspiring your people, and you're getting the most out of them because they want to, not because they have to. Right. So in the sense with quote, unquote, bad leadership, where it's processes, it's getting stuff done over, connecting with people are, you know, making sure they're empowered and they truly are positioned accurately, what you'll run into is you'll lose those gems, right? Because you're. You're sitting on it and you're treating it like a rock, and someone else is like, whoa, wait a minute, that's not a rock. Like, what is that doing on the floor? Yeah, this is one of the most precious diamonds. Like, what are you doing with it? And the hard part is this. Here's the worst part. Here's the worst part, Gary. Nobody wins because the company didn't get the best out of that individual, which could have really impacted the company. And then the individual didn't give an opportunity to give his best and reap the benefits of growing, you know?

Yeah. And that comes from the right leader.

Yep. Absolutely. I mean, the first time you told me this, I was thinking like, oh, my goodness, we need. We need this. We need. Not only do we need an active campaign, like, every company of every size.

Needs this, you know, and that's something. So when you're working with a company and helping them to develop their automation and their brand and their message, how valuable is an authentic message?

Oh, it's everything. It's everything. Right. Because whatever level you are not authentic, that difference you often make up or try to make up with tactics. And people see tactics and run the other way, man. They see it, and immediately their guard is up. So you're working against yourself.

So you've seen companies that have a great message thrive, and if they don't, then they just try to do more of something else to offset that.

Yes, yes. And I've been in situations where the tactic was great marketing. Right. And great marketing has held them over For a time. But here's the thing. Every tactic has an expiration date, right? And you never know when that tactic is not going to work. Because on the other side of that tactic is market saturation. It's only so many times somebody can see this and be like, okay, it's a sale every month and it's the last sale of the month. All right? So with that, it's going back to the message. Because a message that resonates with the audience is timeless, right? And the message is going to shift, right? Because your audience's needs and the market and everything that's going on is going to change. So your ability to stay true to your business and shift that message authentically is really what keeps you in business.

I love that. And you know, one of the things for me that is one of the great uses of the why is in creating authentic messaging. Because the message of the business is the message of the visionary. You know, for example, Apple, you know, Steve Jobs. Why was to challenge the status quo and think outside the box, right? To do things differently. And when you look at Apple's tagline, it's all about thinking outside the box and doing it differently. Right? And so every business is a reflection of the visionary. So when you know their why, that allows you to build their business and build their brand, right? Apple think different. Activecampaign. Same thing. When we get the why of the visionary, we'll know the message for the business. And it's real and it resonates and it won't change.

It just allows you to get more out of people. Yeah. You know, if we, if you're gonna go through the process of starting a company and hiring and getting benefits and all of this, you want to get the most out of those individuals. And I'll tell you, Gary, I think that one of the hardest environments to really establish this is in the, in the tech startup space. Because it's. Everything is fast growth. That's what everything is about, growing fast. And in that, what happens, Gary, is this. Everybody starts with good intentions, right? You're a CEO, you want a fast growing company, so you could be amongst the fastest growing. And you're thinking, you're looking around at all of these other companies and how they're creating a culture where people are happy, it's fun, it's blah, blah, blah, right? You want that. But here's what happens in fast growing environments. They're also highly stressful, right? So under stress is where you start to test the mettle of the CEO. And everything that you aspire to be and everything that you desire to have takes a backseat to you getting things done if you're not careful. Right, that stress to move fast. Okay, I know I should be thinking about making sure, you know, people take a break, right? When, when the stress is not there, it's easy to think about that. But when the stress is there, that's no longer close to the front of your mind. So now you maybe you just points put, blindly put somebody over that. Hey, make sure everybody's taking a break and you're over here focused on all these board meetings.

Right?

Because fast growth is now the end goal, not necessarily the people. And as long as you're making money and as long as you've got that, that badge of fast growth, a lot of startups will take that.

That's interesting.

Very stressful situations. They'll say, well look, we're making money, nothing's breaking. Okay, so what, we lost 10 people. We, we just hired 20. Let's keep this thing going. And, and that's the most common theme that I've seen across all startups. All startups, when they chase the, the fast growth.

So they just ride it out until it crashes.

That's it, man. That's it. And because the thing is, Gary and I used to be, you know, because I value people. So I would struggle, I just know that now as a CEO of a fast growing company, I would struggle because at the point where you put process over people to maintain the fast growth and xyz, I would do the total opposite. I would be people first and I would have to find that balance. I really would. But I would rather err on the side of people first than processes first. But it is, it's very much, it's very challenging. It is very challenging. So I know, like for me, I know the pace and this is why, like I'm realistic with the business that I want in my life. You know, I'm not trying to raise 60 million in funding. I'm trying to do any of that. I'm trying to impact lives with what I know to help them and remove barriers for their business so that they can grow their business and have businesses that allow them to spend more time with their families or doing what they love to do.

That's awesome. Well, Chris, one last thing before we go. I know we're probably a little over time, but I know automation is your thing, business automation. What have you seen is the difference between great automation and just good automation?

Yeah, great automation is built with the user in mind. Not the product. Right. So when you're building out automation and everybody think of it like this. Automation is like a product, a paved road. Okay, so you're building out a path. If I were trying to get home from work, I need a road to get there. What automation does is it prepares that path for the contact. Their first contact may be your website, and then they need to find a way from your website to your product. They don't know. They can't see the connection. Right. So good automation makes that path so easy that they end up there and they're like, oh, I didn't even realize I'd been walking for five miles. Right. That's good automation. It removes the friction. It is not abrasive. It is very relational. Okay, so I'm collecting data on you not for the sake of having data, but to make your journey easier. And the reward for me making your journey easier. And by easier, I mean personalized. Right. By me using technology to make you feel like a human along this journey, my reward is that you. You want to buy my product.

I like that. So what was the term that you guys said? You know, I tried to paraphrase it, but what did you say about automation as far as developing the relationship? It was like on that first slide that you have.

Oh, yeah, yeah. We were saying, we don't want you to automate everything. Instead, we want you to bring automation in at the right time to enhance the customer journey. So the goal is the perfect blend of automation and human touch.

And human touch. Yeah. There we go. That's awesome. Well, Chris, man, I thank you for spending the afternoon with me and being on the podcast. I love having a conversation with you. I'm sure we're going to have many more in the future.

Absolutely, absolutely. Gary, thank you for having me, man. Again, I love this stuff. I could go for another hour, but I know we've got to be conscious, you know, mindful of the. Of the listeners.

So if people need to get ahold of you, if they want to learn more about ActiveCampaign, if they want to maybe have you come speak in their area, how should they get ahold of you?

Yes, I built. I help built out The Education center, activecampaign.com learn you can find all of the content you need. See me, you can attend a webinar with myself. And then there's also links for workshops that we have in your city. Of course, on that page, you can hit contact and request to have me come speak for your company or in your city.

That's awesome. Chris, thank you for being here and have a great rest of your week.

Thank you, Gary. You do the same.

Take care.