John Livesay On Clarification: How To Win By Storytelling

Welcome to beyond you'd why podcast where we go beyond just talking about your why and actually help you discover and then live your why. You see, we believe that knowing your why, that driving force behind every decision you make and every action you take, is the essential first step to really knowing yourself. It allows you to move forward faster and have a bigger impact. If you're already a fan of the show, then you know that every week we talk about one of the nine whys and then we introduce you to somebody with that why so you can see how their why has played out in their life. This show will be more powerful for you if you've already discovered your why. If you still need to do that, head over to whyinstitute.com and discover your why today. It'll only take you about five minutes. Now let's meet today's guest.

Welcome to the on youn why podcast where we go beyond just talking about your why and actually helping you discover and then live your why. So if you're a regular listener, you know that every week we talk about one of the nine whys and then we bring on somebody with that why so you can see how their why has played out in their life. And so this week we're going to be talking about the why of clarify to clarify or make crystal clear. So if this is your why, then you seek to be fully understood at all times. Everything has to be crystal clear. It is important for you to know that people get what you're saying and you will use numerous methods to get a point across and make sure it's clear. You will use analogies and metaphors to share your views in an interesting and unique manner. You feel successful when you know that with confidence that your message has been fully understood and received. You want to reach this place of clarity and understanding before decisions are made and people move forward with a plan of action. So today I've got a great guest for you. Now I have had him on before but a lot has changed since then and I wanted to have him on again. His name is John Livesay, AKA the Pitch Whisperer. He is a sales keynote speaker where he shows company sales teams how to turn mundane case studies into compelling case stories so they win more new business From John's award winning career at Conde Nast. He shares the lessons he learned that turn sales teams into revenue rock stars. His TEDx talk Be the lifeguard of your own Life has over 1 million views now. His new book, the Sale is in the Tail is a business fable set in Austin Texas. It's about a sales representative whose old ways of selling are not working anymore. The reader accompanies the rep on his journey and learns how to use storytelling and strengthen their soft skills to improve their professional and personal relationships. He is also the host of the successful Pitch podcast which is heard in over 60 countries. These interviews make him a sales keynote speaker and with fresh and relevant content. John, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me back, Gary.

This is going to be fun. So what I want to do is let's jump into your book. I want to hear about your book because it's a fable, but then I also have a big interest in how you wrote a fable. So let's talk about the fable and then let's talk about how you wrote the fable. How's that sound?

Sounds great. Well, it's a story about storytelling and I have been impressed with a lot of other fables in the past, you know, all the way back to who moved my cheese to the go getter or the go giver and getting naked. But no one's written a fable from the perspective of a salesperson being the hero or the main character. So I thought it would be very entertaining hopefully to say what that feels like to be in those situations. So I looked and fictionalized some of the things that had happened to me in my career and some of the things I wished had happened to me. Meeting people that could have helped me learn how to be better storyteller sooner. And so that process was quite fascinating and surprisingly fun because instead of just telling people, I wanted to show them in the story and they're actually learning while they're engaged in the story. And like any good story, if you care about the characters, you can't wait to see what happens next. Drama, a little bit of suspense and making that all come to life with then at the end having their methodologies available to use. What you learned was the whole intent.

Okay, so take us into the story without telling us too much, tell us now who's the main character, what's going on with him and what, what kind of happens here.

The guy's name is Ben. He's in his early 30s working at a medical tech sales company here in Austin where I live. So I sprinkled in some real life locations and he's hit a sales slump and he doesn't get a promotion he was supposed to get because he lost a big sale and he doesn't know why. The old way of selling of just memorizing a bunch of facts and figures is no Longer working. So he gets a mentor in the form of a co worker who is a tech expert who watches a lot of sales presentations. And she sees that the people who are really winning are the ones that are telling stories. And he's a little skeptical at first. And then he starts to try it out. And of course, anything you try out, you don't become an expert at. Whether it's riding a bike, you need the training wheels on it at first, or driving stick shift for the first time. It's a little jerky. So we go through some of those bumps along the way and then he starts to get more and more traction. And then there's some nice outcomes at the end that he has some choices that he didn't have. So he goes from feeling like, I could get fired and I didn't go get promoted to I've got places wanting me inside and outside the company, all through becoming more comfortable with storytelling.

Now, was that your story in a way?

Yes. Yes, I. Some of it. Like, you know, there's a situation at the beginning in that first chapter. The first opening of any story has got to grab you. And it's being on a plane with a boss who doesn't really like you and everything going wrong that could possibly go wrong on a sales call, and then having to be on that plane ride back with the boss who didn't like you to begin with and then after you blowing it, really. So that part actually happened to me. It's fictionalized. And I think if you've been in business at all, you've all, you know, had a boss that you didn't get along with at some point in your career. So some of that is definitely truth.

So for the people that have not listened to the first time I had you on, tell them a little bit more about you and your story and how you got into storytelling and why it became important to you and why you switched directions in your career to be about storytelling and teach others to do this.

Well, I first started my career selling multimillion dollar mainframe computers in the tech industry. And that was competing against IBM. And it was all I thought of going to be numbers that was so logical people would buy based on speeds and things. And no, it turns out it was an emotional buy that people said, listen, your equipment might be faster and even less expensive and more reliable, but we're still not going to buy it because if it breaks, and back then it broke a lot, IBM is going to point the finger at you and say, it's our fault for Bringing you in and we'll get fired. It was fear, uncertainty and doubt that they were using to keep people from leaving. And I thought, oh my gosh, there's a lot of emotion to this sale process. Just like in advertising, which I majored in that I hadn't thought was going to appeal in this level. And then I went and worked for an ad agency in Los Angeles creating commercials for movies coming out on home video. And I really learned we could reposition the movie if it hadn't done well theatrically and have it edited in a different way that made people want to rent it. So that's where I honed my storytelling skills. And then the third career I had was selling media, selling advertising for publications. And Lexus would say, you know, we looked at 50 magazines, we've narrowed it down to 10. You're each coming in for 30 minutes. Don't talk about numbers. We've already analyzed that and we're going to pick three. And some of the reps were like a deer in headlights, Gary. They're like, don't talk about numbers. What circulation or the income of my readers. What am I going to talk about? So I realized from my advertising agency background, oh, whoever tells the best story of what the marketing idea is going to be is what's going to win this sale. So that led to a long 15 year career, of course, some bumps along the way. I got laid off in 2008, had to reinvent myself and learn how to sell digital, then got rehired back one Salesperson of the year. And that really became the premise of the TED Talk of we all have to learn to be the lifeguard of our own life. No one's going to come rescue us like in a hurricane when you don't evacuate. And now I have a passion for helping people tell stories because it makes you feel much less pushy and you become memorable. And whoever tells the best story, no matter what you're selling, is the one that gets the sale.

What makes up a great story, a.

Great story, Gary, should be three things. It should be clear, concise, and compelling. So let's look at each one of those. If it's not clear, if you use a bunch of acronyms, confuse people, they're never going to say they're confused. They're just going to say, okay, no, thanks. Concise. And here's the secret of why it needs to be concise so that someone can remember it. Meeting after the meeting that nobody ever thinks about. So if you put your empathy hat on of the buyers they hear three different pitches from three different people, and then they have a meeting after the meeting and they go, well, what do you all think? Well, they all sound the same. I guess we should just buy the cheapest. If you're the one that told a story that is concise enough for them to remember and retell, they become your brand ambassador.

I love that.

And then finally, compelling. We buy emotionally, not logically. When you use words like struggle or overwhelm to describe the pain point of someone, they feel something. And when you tug at heartstrings, people open the purse strings.

Now, I know I didn't prep you in advance, but would you have us an example of that that we can feel?

Yes. So recently I was working with a healthcare medical company, and they were selling 4K resolution monitors for the doctors to use in a hospital. I'm talking about pixels and all the features of it. And now they tell this story. Six months ago, Dr. Peterson at a rural hospital in Minnesota, not known for cutting edge technology, decided to test this resolution monitor. And Blake, the salesperson, was in the operating room in case there are any questions. This particular surgery, the patient was overweight, which caused the surgery to be a little riskier. And because of that, the doctor hit a bleeder. There was an audible gasp in the operating room because to the naked eye, it was just a stage sea of red. The doctor calmly looked up at the resolution monitor, and the subtle colors in red between oxygenated blood and non oxygenated blood allowed him to find the source of the bleeder quickly and save the patient's life. Turned to the rep and said, you know, we don't always need a monitor like this, but, boy, when we need one, we need one. Now, that rep tells that story to another doctor who sees himself in the story and says, I don't want to be caught in that situation without something to help back me up. I want that monitor, too. It's a whole different way of selling the monitor versus describing the pixels.

I love that. And I remember and I'll continue to remember. When you need one, you'll need one.

Yes. Now, that's the secret of telling a really good story. Dialogue in the present tense, so that you feel like you're eavesdropping in on the story. And so you tell that story as if the doctor is having the conversation in the moment. The doctor said to Brad, you know, and that's as opposed to saying, you know, the doctor did say to me this. Say it as if it's happening now.

I love that. And so you can use storytelling in almost anything.

Right?

In selling yourself, selling your book, selling your product, selling anything.

I was just on television two days ago being interviewed on how to use storytelling to ask for a raise. So you paint a picture, tell the story of what you did as opposed to just listing off a bunch of achievements. It's much more memorable because our brains are wired to remember stories versus numbers. And one of the things I have in my book is how it can help you in your personal life. And this actually happened to a client of mine. He said, you know, my eight year old daughter had said to me, daddy, tell me a bedtime story. And he goes, okay, I'll read you good night. No, don't read a book, tell me one. And he goes, for a moment I panicked. And then I remembered you taught me the four steps to telling a story for business. And so I use that structure to make up a story. And it went really well.

I love it. So when you decided to write.

The sale is in the tail.

Why did you pick a parable versus a book with a bunch of stories?

Well, I had done a book with a bunch of stories before called Better selling through storytelling. And I thought, let's take the reader on a journey that is one person. Because when you tell a story that someone sees themselves in, they want to go on the journey with you. And so the example of the 4K monitor, other doctors see themselves in that doctor situation. That could have been me. And the same. So I thought if I have a whole story that people are cheering for the hero and seeing some of the frustrations and the wincing at familiar, oh, I had a boss like that situations, it will make it a more of an emotional connection versus multiple stories.

Yeah, I just wrote down. So as we're talking, if I look away, it's because I'm writing notes. Because every time we talk, I take a bunch of notes. I wrote, that could have been me.

Yes.

That's really an important part of that story. Right. Of all stories or just that story?

Yes. When you go see a wonderful movie, you're seeing yourself as the superhero. That's why kids love superheroes. And they want to wear the costume for Halloween. Right. Maybe if I put on the cape, I'll have a superpower and I won't be my insecure self anymore. So. And the same thing, when there's some challenges and every good story has to have some problem and the stakes have to be somewhat high for us to care about what's going on in the story.

How do you take somebody through.

Figuring out their story. So they contact you and they say, john, man, I got to be able to sell my new book. Or I got. Well, or my new. Whatever it is, widget. How do you take them through creating their story? You have a series of questions or what do you do?

Yes. Well, there's actually three stories everybody needs. The first one is your own personal story of origin. How did you get here? I know you've got this wonderful story of origin of being a really successful dentist and then discovering the Y Institute. We need to know that. We need to know that your background is based in something that worked. And you had this, aha. Epiphany of discovering it, working here, and applying it to other places. If you're an architect or a financial advisor, we need to know that you loved buildings from a child. Or you've always been good at numbers since you were a kid, that there's. It's not something you just fell into and don't really care about, because why people buy your energy.

And so when you have a passion for something and you tell a story about why you're so passionate about what you're doing, that's connecting the dots. And then even if you just work for yourself, you need a company story. That story has to have a story. Here's how we came up with the name, right? This is why we called it your why Operating System. Because people understand an operating system for a phone or a computer, we want them to think of themselves as being programmed and realizing what's being put in is what comes out. And so that's why we called it that. Or we want to tell a story of how we responded to a pandemic and showed our values in action by volunteering. Or suddenly all of our employees were working from home and their kids weren't going to school. We said, the first Zoom meeting, you can bring your kid to the Zoom call, right? To show we needed to have some empathy for what was going on, as opposed to make sure your kids aren't in the room. Well, how about if we just invite them for the, you know, like, bring your kid to Zoom instead of bring your kid to work. And then the third is the real key. And that's a traditional case study, which has been around for decades, and it's very dry, typically a bunch of numbers. We turn that into a case story, which is what I gave that example of the 4K monitor. Instead of pixels, it became a case story. So there's actual structure to that story, and you can learn how to do It. The good news is you don't have to be a gifted storyteller, like a gifted athlete or singer. And even if you are a good storyteller, I help you refine it to get to the place where people see themselves in the story.

And is that. So I'll learn that those three different types of stories within the fable.

Exactly. And there's a template at the back for everyone to start practicing the steps and filling it in.

That's awesome. Okay, so now tell us, because I want to write a fable.

All right.

My book is about done. In fact, before we talked, I was speaking with the editor to put some final things on the book. And. But in my next book, I really want to write a fable. So how did you learn to write a fable?

Well, I read as many business fables as I could get my hands on. Okay. And I saw sometimes just using the structure of a fable is not good. If you're gonna get stuck in the back to. And now they're in a meeting, and then the meeting goes on for two chapters, and it's just regurgitating a bunch of information, and you don't care about the characters. And then there's somebody like Patrick Lecione, who wrote Getting Naked, where I was listening to the audible and I couldn't wait to hear what happened, even though I was already at my destination. And I thought, wow, that's a good story. When I care enough to see what's gonna happen next. So I listed all my characters. Obviously, there's a main character, and then there's supporting characters. They each need a name, and we need to have almost like a. You're a very virtual person. So if you have your core character, your hero in the center and then spikes like a bicycle coming off. This is his sister. The sister has a husband and a kid. So, you know, that is not as core to Ben's story, except for that one part. But then we need to have some sense of that relationship. And then his best friend is another, then his boss and all these other things, and then a client that comes in. So when you have a list of characters. And I remember working with the editor, and I said, I want this woman who's his boss, who gets the promotion that he doesn't get to be more like.

Not so much Katie Couric and more like Diane Sawyer. And so I started thinking of those, because we know what that is. One's got gravitas. One's known for morning, you know, TV lightness. And so having that subtle descriptions of what These people's personality is totally dictates what they're going to say in the dialogue. Are they going to be chipper and happy? Welcome, everybody, to the sales meeting. That's a Katie Couric version of that, right? Are they going to be more like Diane Sawyer? Hello, everyone. Let's get to business. And you know what? I imagine Diane Sawyer, like, at a meeting. So that it was. Hopefully that's helpful for you.

Yeah. So step one was obviously figuring out the story, what you wanted it, and the meaning of the story. But then step two is listing your characters and then figuring out what you want. The personality or this character is like someone you know, so you can stick them in that place and then, you know, what kinds of things they might say, how they might handle stress, pressure, whatever.

Exactly. And I recorded my book on audible, so that was an interesting challenge because there was multiple characters and I had to subtly change my voice so the listeners would know who's speaking. And, you know, there's an eight year old in there, so that was a little challenging, but it was fun, too.

So how many characters in your book?

Well, there's probably about seven main characters and maybe another ten secondary characters.

Okay. And now. And then, how long did it take you to actually write the fable?

It was about a year process. A year? Yep. I had the concept, and then for me, the challenge was, who's going to be the mentor? That makes sense organically because every hero's journey needs a mentor. Like, there's a book called the Energy Bus. That guy's car broke down for two weeks. And the mentor, and that was the bus driver that he was taking to, you know, so I needed to figure out what was going to happen or who it was going to be that was going to. And once, you know, I tried a different couple ideas, I'm like, it's not really working. And then I had an ending that wasn't working, and I had to rethink that. So it's not like you just go, I got an idea. And it'll just. It's like as a sales keynote speaker, you know, you keep refining it. When something really gels together, it's usually not your first effort.

You know, that was good to hear for the audience and for me, because.

Not working rewrite. Not working rewrite is okay. Then it's not going to come out of your pen onto paper. Perfect. First time. No, not even close.

No. And you need to keep digging deeper. And. Is this a cliche thing? I don't want to say anything. Cliche I want to come up with something that's ever been done before, you know, So I. You know, one of the things that's really so rewarding as an author and as a speaker is when you say something or write something that people start using right away. And in this case, I realized that all of us, whether we're in sales or not, and my premise is everyone is in sales, are going to get rejected, frustrated, disappointed, and how do we get out of that or do we stay stuck in it? So I created this thing called the 555 method, where you ask, you zoom out like you're the movie director of your own life and you say, will this bother me in five minutes? Somebody just caught me off in traffic. Will it bother me in five hours from now? Hopefully not. How about five days from now? Well, if I keep talking about it, yes.

And it's our ability to be resilient and get back up after life knocks us down. Now, when something really hard happens, like when my father died, I was so sad. I wish I'd had this tool, Gary, because I thought.

If I could go five weeks from now, five months from now, five years from now, if I could see myself five years from now, I'd say, you're going to still miss them. But you promise you, you will not be this sad five years from now. So I love hearing from people going, ah, something happened. I five five five it. And I let it go much faster than I ever would have before. Thank you. That's what we do. What we do. That's why we do what we do.

And the 555 is part of the fable.

Yes.

Yeah. So when is the John Livesay fable course coming out?

Course on storytelling that incorporates a lot of it already in there. So. But, you know, like anything, things keep evolving and there's new tools and new ideas. So a lot of the current course involves some group coaching with me where I add all the new things that I've learned from the fable into that. Yeah.

But I don't think you heard what I said.

When is the course based on how to write a fable.

Yeah. How to write fables. The John Levis say How to Write a Fable course coming out.

I don't know that I'm an expert on that, but I try to.

You've done it once.

Yeah.

Because you're way farther ahead than. Than I am. And our listeners that would love to write a fable.

Hmm.

You know, fables stick with you longer, right?

Yes. Stories in general.

Stories in general.

Different part of our brain.

Yeah. And so you can. Or I can remember. Is it. Is it a different part of the brain that has a better memory or how does that work?

Part of it's because when we remember things that have a really great opening and a really great closing, that's why you're. As a storytelling keynote speaker. You need to have that. That's why movies live and die by a really great opening and a really great closing and maybe something in the middle of the movie. But the majority of what you remember is a great opening that grabbed you. Like the James Bond movies or this amazing closing where they, you know, you didn't think they were going to ever come together. And they, you know, you had me at hello or whatever that is. Right.

And so that concept of a story being more memorable than a fact or a figure, it's all about our brain going, oh, I felt something with that. And I'm tying that feeling to a memory as opposed to 30% faster. Do I need to remember that? Is it going to save my life? Did I feel anything about that? No, it's just like, okay, that's nice to have. I'll make more money or whatever. It's not nearly as memorable as a story that lands with you. Again, if you see yourself in that story, then it's really immersed in your whole DNA.

So if you want to create a story that.

The majority of people will remember, or is that the thinking? Is it, I want this story to hit the most amount of people, or do I want this story to hit connect with my ideal client? Or what is the thinking that goes on when you decide which story to tell?

Well, there's two things. As an author or someone writing a movie, I can. I heard Elizabeth Gilbert interviewed about Eat Pray Love. She said, I wrote that book for my best friend who could not go on the trip with me. She had one person in mind because it was so universal in its appeal. Hundreds of people could relate to that journey. So when you tell a story and you want to think of your brain like a jukebox or a playlist, depending on your age, with instead of songs coming out, different stories come out. The ideal scenario is I have five to 10 stories in my head. And if I'm talking to you as a former dentist and I have a story about somebody else who used to be a dentist and now is an entrepreneur, that's the perfect story to tell to you. That's what makes that customized. So if you tell that story to someone that they see themselves in and there's a lot of similarities Then they're involved. So it's. We don't. We can't just have the same story to talk to everybody who's a potential buyer. We need multiple stories for the different types of avatars that are out there.

So do you have a list of stories that you know or tell? How many do we. How many? I don't know if there's a fair question, but how many stories do you have?

Oh, gosh, I probably have about 40.

Okay, so you've got a. So I'm trying to walk our readers through, I mean, our listeners through.

How they might go about becoming a better storyteller. But first, you got to have the story. You got to, like, have your menu of stories. I got 40 stories.

Yeah, you need a structure of what. What makes a good story. And then you've got one good one, and you're like, okay, now I've got one that I know works, and I know why it works. I can duplicate that system. And I know you're the master at, you know, scaling something once it's proven. So once you understand the four steps to a great story, and then you go, okay, I've got one. Now don't overwhelm yourself and try to get 40. Just say, know I have three types of buyers that buy, let's say, 80% of what I'm selling. Right. I was just working with a healthcare company in San Antonio that sell. You know, they offer dementia and assisted living for people with Alzheimer's. And they said, oh, so we have three kinds of people that come to us. Somebody moving from out of state, someone who's been living with an adult child, and the adult child can take. Take care of them anymore. Or someone who is at a different facility and it wasn't working out and they need a new place. Great. Now we know three different scenarios, and you can have three different stories ready to go that will cover you 80% of the time.

Okay, I like that. And then you can. You almost have, like, plug and play type thing. I know the scenario, I know the story. Boom, let's go.

Exactly. And you start telling the story. You know that you remind me of another client we had six months ago. His name was Larry. And you're off and running.

So what does every story have? Like, a memorable moment, a memorable saying, a memorable. And how do you create that?

Well, the four parts of it are the exposition. You like, you're a journalist who. What, where, when. So you paint the picture to pull them in, describing the problem in detail, the solution. And the secret is the resolution. Imagine if the wizard of Oz just stopped when Dorothy got in the balloon to go back. The end. No, there's that scene where she's at home. There's no place like home. And you were there and all this appreciation stuff. So when you have a story that hits all four of those things, you know, you've got a good structure going. And the memorable parts come when you really get sophisticated using neuro linguistic programming. So if I say to you, gary, the car door slammed, how do you experience that?

I think about the last time I felt I was. Somebody slammed the car door.

Okay, did you hear it, feel it or see it?

Oh.

I heard it.

Heard it. Okay. So from neuro linguistic programming, that way you would be an audio person. Right. That probably means you say things like, does that ring a bell? You, your car system, sound system is probably upgraded. Things like that are important to you. Somebody else might be kinesthetic and feeling. They feel the car door slam. They talk about, you know, this is. My gut doesn't tell me this is the right thing to do.

Or they'll say, does this feel like something you want to do? Or like, for me, does that sound like the kind of journey you like to go on? That's an auditory question.

And if you're visual like I am, you love photography. Usually you say, do you see how the future could be together? You know, you speak in those terms. So as a salesperson, communicator, it's our job to try and hit all three. Now, other people can shift, but if you hit all three when you're communicating, people don't have to shift from their preference of how they experience the world. So with back to this Alzheimer's dementia look situation, they said, oh, a patient came in and she was so depressed she had her head on the table. I said, okay, that's the beginning of a good story. Let's amplify it, give her a name, describe it. So now they talk about, you know, when pat, who was 75, came to us six months ago, she was so depressed that we would hear a slight thud as her head hit the table. And imagine how depressed Pat had to feel to not even to want to look up and see what was going on around her.

See, now we've pulled all three of those sensations into a short little description of that person in the exposition. And now we're off and running about what they did to help Pat feel better.

Yeah.

So that slight thud, as opposed to just the visual of the head on the table. Yeah. Makes all the difference. In the world of how you experience the story.

So when you're. Let's go back to your fable for a minute.

What does the rhythm or graph look like in a fable? Is there multiple. Is it just an up and down, up and down like five times? Or is it one? You know, up then down, then up, then what does that look like? Or is that a fair question?

No, that's a fair question.

I was inspired by what's known in the startup world as the trough of despair that's mirrored to the hero's journey. So you get all excited, you've got this new idea for something, and then you hit some obstacles and then you get depressed and you feel like no one else has ever been like this, what am I going to do? Am I reinvent myself? What's going on? And you don't. You need some mentor Sherpa to come and get you out of that funk. And then it's not a linear line out. You still have challenges and things, but you're on your way up out of that trough of despair.

Which at. Sometimes people still get off the train at that place.

So they do. And. And sometimes in storytelling, you start at the trough of despair as opposed to giving a lot of exposition up front. I tried to make mine like a James Bond movie where you're in the action right away, you're like, oh, my God, this poor guy. He's giving me this horrible experience. He's got a bad boss, he lost sale. What's going to happen to him? And then as the story goes on, you start to hear more about his past, how he got there.

So how many.

That was a creative choice I made.

And how many pages is the fable?

Oh, gosh. Well, I can tell you it's three hours to listen to.

Okay.

It's not long. I purposely made it like that. The book, let me see. I have it right here. Is 160 pages.

Okay.

Yeah.

So you could read it in a day?

Oh, yeah, a couple hours, whatever. Yeah. That's the whole goal, is that you're. It's compelling enough that you don't want to put it down.

I love that. So, John, if people are listening and they're saying, man, I really need to get a hold of John, I want work with them. I want to learn to tell a better story. I want to sell with stories. I want to be a better storyteller. I want to get his fable. I got to connect with them. What's the best way for people to connect with you?

Just go to my website, John. Livesay L I V as in Victor E S a y dot com. You can also, if you can't remember my name or the book name, just Google the Pitch whisperer and all my content shows up. And I have a free gift for everybody, which is if you text the word pitch picture P I T C H to 66866, I'll send you a free chapter of the book.

Nice. Well, let's go ahead and say it again.

Sure. Text the word pitch P I T C H to 66866 and you enter your email in and boom, you'll get the first chapter free. And that should be enough to entice you to want to read what happens next.

I love it. John, thank you so much for being here again. You know, we got even deeper than we did last time, so I am glad we got to learn more about the fable and I am glad we got to dive back into storytelling because I learned a ton that I don't think we went through last time. So thank you for sharing all that.

My pleasure. Gary, great being back. Thanks for having me.

I can't wait to keep following you.

I really hope you enjoyed today's episode and that through today's guest, you heard how important it is to know your why and how impactful it can be in your life and the lives of those around you. Be sure to head over to why institute.com and discover your why today. Remember, the more you know about yourself, the more you'll know about others. I'm Dr. Gary Sanchez and I'll see you on the next episode.