Rehabilitating The Prison System With Andre Norman

In today's episode, you're going to meet Andre Norman. He went from gang member to leader of the gangs in the prison systems to going to two years of solitary confinement where he found himself, found his formula, found his plan, ended up getting out, going to Harvard, and working with leaders at the White House and many other organizations. You're going to find today's episode fascinating. I can't wait to share it with you.

Welcome to beyond you'd why podcast, where we go beyond just talking about your why and actually help you discover and then live your why. You see, we believe that knowing your why, that driving force behind every decision you make and every action you take, is the essential first step to really knowing yourself. It allows you to move forward faster and have a bigger impact. If you're already a fan of the show, then you know that every week we talk about one of the nine whys, and then we introduce you to somebody with that why so you can see how their why has played out in their life. This show will be more powerful for you if you've already discovered your why. If you still need to do that, head over to whyinstitute.com and and discover your why today. It'll only take you about five minutes. Now let's meet today's guest. And so this week, we're going to be talking about the why of better way to find a better way and share it. So if this is your why, then you are the ultimate innovator and you are constantly seeking better ways to do everything. You find yourself wanting to improve virtually anything by finding a way to make it better. You also desire to share your improvements with the world. You constantly ask yourself questions like, what if we tried this differently? What if we did this another way? How can we make this better? You contribute to the world with better processes and systems while operating under the motto, I'm often pleased but never satisfied. You are excellent at associating, which means that you are adept at taking ideas or systems from one industry or discipline and applying them to another, always with the ultimate goal of improving something. And so today, I have a fascinating guest for you. His name is Andre Norman. He is the number one prison success story in the world. Growing up in Boston, Andre struggled with poverty and illiteracy. After quitting on his dream of being a trumpet player, he turned to the streets, eventually finding himself before a judge where he was sentenced to over 100 years in prison. The first six years, he immersed himself in prison culture, gaining status and recognition within the system. This led to him being Placed in solitary confinement for two years. While in solitary confinement, Andre had an epiphany and realized he had become the king of nowhere. After assessing his current life and life he wanted to create with 1% chance of succeeding, he formulated a plan to go to Harvard and and become successful. Over the next eight years, Andre would work 20 hours a day. He taught himself to read, taught himself the law, went to anger management and personal development groups. He was awarded parole and released, having served 14 years. Ninety minutes after obtaining his freedom, Andre made his first speech to a room of young black men who were in juvenile detention, which is where he once sat. He taught them three basic principles. The the importance of accepting accountability and embracing mentorship. How to create a plan and live with integrity, and how to become a leader and never quit. For the last 20 plus years, he's been teaching these principles around the world, having made stops in over 30 countries and working with top agencies such as YPO, EO, Genius Network, the White House, Ferguson, Harvard, or at a London business school. All the while still working on his passion of helping people turn their lives around. He currently runs the Academy of Hope, a violence reduction prison based program. Having gone from being hopeless in prison to now running prisons is why Andre Norman is the number one prison success story in the world. Andre, welcome to the podcast.

You got to send me that intro, man. I need a copy of that.

Well, you know what, I had a different intro for you and I decided not to use it because that I think tells a better story. The one I had didn't go into the kind of where you came from. It's just kind of what you're doing now, which I didn't think did you.

Justice, I appreciate you. Now email me a copy. I like that.

Well, Andre, let's go. Where were you? You were born in Boston, grew up.

In Boston, Massachusetts, Boston City Hospital.

So tell us a little bit about your childhood. What was that like for you? What were you like in high school? Give us a little background on you.

Born in Boston, 1967. It was a different time, a different era. All the people weren't getting along as they do or supposed to nowadays. So it was just like, it was like segregated communities in a sense of the white folks lived over there, the black folks lived over there, the Spanish people lived down there, and we never saw the Asian folks. They were just like only downtown someplace. And you stayed in your bubble. Everybody had a bubble and you lived in it. And when you came out of your bubble, people would tell you, get back into your bubble. So Going to school, you just think everything's normal. You're a kid. You don't know the larger world is going through stuff. I didn't understand the Vietnam War was going on while I was two years old, three years old. I didn't understand a lot of things was gone. Watergate, knew nothing about it, never heard about it until I was an adult. So the world is moving, and I'm just a little kid. And I'm a kid. My parents are growing up, My older siblings are growing up understanding what's going on. I have no clue. And then I finally get to, like, sixth grade. I have a little bit more ability. I can move around now. And it was like, okay, cool. That's when I started realizing that I was living in a bubble and that my bubble consisted of the people who live next door to me, down the street from me. And I wasn't allowed, not couldn't. I wasn't allowed or expected to go beyond my bubble. Then I started traveling. I mean, I love traveling. So as a kid in the fifth grade, I hated being boxed into the hood, as we call it. So I'd go down the bottom of the hill and get on the bus. I'd ride the bus from end to end. Then after I rode the bus to every stop, there was a trolley. I started riding the trolley and in every stop. And after I rode to trolley, I jumped on the train. I started riding the train to every stop on the first line. There's four. Four train lines in Boston. I wrote them all. I've been been to every stop on every train line in the city of Boston that it has. And I started looking at the commuter rails and the buses go to the suburbs, not just jump on buses. And I just go to different communities and I jump off and just go explore. And people thought I was weird. And this is before, way before gps. And then that's just what you did. That was my escape from the city. I'd get on a bus and just go somewhere. Get on a train, in the trolley and just go somewhere, see something. I love this seeing stuff. But I get to high school and it's not going well. I'm not athletic. I'm not an academic. I'm not super cool. So I'm kind of in where I'm in, and then I just fall off. And as you see my trumpet on the wall behind me, some friends of mine talked me out of playing a trumpet. They said, it's not cool, and you can't not have friends. So I gave up my Trumpet. And when I gave up my trumpet, I fell in with all the rest of the people and the people who are going away that I didn't want to go, but ended up going to the street. If you're not in school, you're not doing anything productive, you're going to be in the street. There's not a lot to that. And my street term didn't last long like everybody else. You make your little run and you get a car, whatever you get, then you end up in jail. And so as a teenager, the one glamour thing that come up in my. My youth was in 11th grade. I'd failed 9th grade, 10th grade, 11th grade, almost every class. And I went to class late one day. My teacher wouldn't let me in, so I ended up in the hallway, and I ended up in the auditorium sitting in the back of a presentation around exchange students. So I'm sitting in the back. I'm jaded by this point in my life. I'm like, yo, why are you talking about kids going to foreign countries? We can't go anyplace. We're stuck right here. And I forgot that I love to travel. Instead of saying, hey, this is for me, I just downed it because I was a hater at the time. And the guy called me to the front, he gave me the forms. He said, don't say no for them. Fill out the forms, make them say no. Then you have an argument. Long story short, I filled out the forms, I applied, and I got the first scholarship of all the kids in Boston public schools because President Reagan wanted black kids to go on his trip. So he eliminated grades you could not look at grades. You only had to talk to the person in front of you based on potential. And in 1984, it was deemed I had the most potential of any kid in Boston public school system. So I win the scholarship. Then my principal finds out. He calls me to office, he calls the counselor to the office, and he's cussing us both out. Never could I represent their school. I was the worst kid they ever seen. And he's just going on and on. Long story short, when he was done, the man raised his hand. He said three things. One, Andre's going on this trip. Two, it's not your money. And three, is not your decision. Thank you for your time. And we walked out. When we got in the hallway, he gave me that look, like I told you, don't ever say no for them. In the summer of 1984, I went to London, Paris, Belgium and Amsterdam on the exchange student Scholarship. And it just. It was like my thing traveling. I'm like, I'm there. And it was phenomenal. And the thing that changed my life, if I pick a moment that I didn't, the seed that was planted that changed my life. I'm in not a bar, but I'm like a local pub. I'm. I'm like, 17. I used to play video games. Long story short, I used to play video games. You just put your name up on the high school. So I put on. I put Dre every. You go on it, Dre. I'm a video game kid. And in 84, I'm there. It's the Olympics going on in. In LA, and everybody in London, in Paris, in Belgium and Amsterdam all called me the American. Nobody called me the black kid. They used to call me, oh, he's the American. Oh, he's an American. He's an American. I had never in my life been called an American or put into the category of American. It was always like, the black kids and them or the white kids. So what happened, and I close here is after hearing it so much, and like, I guess at the same time, the Olympics are going on, so everybody's up in arms about their country. I went to the. To the pub, and I switched everything from Dre to usa. I started putting USA up there. I never saw myself as anything but the black kid from the hood. But all those people just inundated me with being an American, and I embraced it. And I. And years later, that travel, that trip, that summer helps me see and navigate my life now.

Wow. Well, you know, listening to that, he doesn't sound like you were a bad kid.

I was extremely bad kid, but doesn't.

Sound like it from what I'm hearing. And he doesn't sound like you were troublemaker. It sounds like you were a kid trying to find his way and got an opportunity. But what did your friends think in that moment about you getting awarded this scholarship to go overseas?

By the time I got to that scholarship, it was like the start of the end of junior year. Going into senior year, half my friends are already in juvie waiting for me to show up. And when I say, not a bad kid, not a good kid, there's no bad or good. It's just, who are you around? So if I. If you show me the atmosphere somebody grows up in, I'll show you what you're gonna get out of that. If you. I've seen George W. Bush was president. You know, what made him be president or prompted him George Herbert Bush prompted him to be president. Yeah. I'm saying we can go back to him saying John Quincy Adams and his son. So you become, to a certain extent, not a guarantee what's around you. But George Herbert Bush, he has one son who's a governor, one son who's president, who was a governor, became president. Yes. Your father's a politician, you become a politician. All the Kennedy boys became politicians. I mean, you kind of follow in the footsteps of. Unless you're an athlete, because you can't pass that on.

Yeah, but what were your parents like then?

My mom and dad separated when I was in the first grade, so I was just, like, on my own. It comes like your dad part. And my mom, six kids, single, single mom. She's trying to raise six of us, feed us, clothe us. She wouldn't go on welfare, so she's working, like, too many jobs account and just trying to make it work. And so she was just overwhelmed with six kids and refusing to just sit home and collect a check every two weeks. My mom went to work every day, and it was so to do that. The back end of that is the kids are home by themselves. And since me and my brother were the little ones or the younger two, so we. We needed guidance the most. When it wasn't there. My oldest siblings were on with their lives, whatever degree that looked like. So it was just kind of like. I call it, like, neglect, but not willful neglect. It was just by byproduct of how we were living. She just couldn't be at work 10 hours and be at home 10 hours. Something had to get.

So what was the turning point that got you going in the wrong direction?

The turning point that got me going in the wrong direction was in the sixth grade when kids told me I was poor and they made fun of me for being a free lunch kid and wearing dirty clothes. And I didn't have anybody to go to at that moment. When I. My friend came to me and said, hey, Dre, we can go sell weed in the park after school and make money. We can buy the stuff that we don't have. Had I had a dad in my life, Had I had a mentor, Had I had a coach. They just said, no, Dre, you're not doing that. I had no one to turn to to say, hey, this is my option. Do you have a better option? So my sixth grade friend, who's just as strung out and pained as I am and trying to find a way, his advice seemed like great advice to me. And again, There was nobody. I didn't have like a brother, four or five years old. My older brother was one year older than me. And so there's no one I can go to to say, hey, what do you think about this? So I'm like, I went with my logic as a 6, as the 11 year old. 11 year old. I can make these people stop yelling at me. Sounds like a good thing. And so I went with it. That was like the turning point where it. If someone had said, nah, Dre, come on, you're gonna go do this, I'd have done it. But there was nobody there to tell me no. And if you're running through life with no one there to tell you no, that's a problem because you're just an accident waiting to happen. That's poverty, that's rich, that's wealthy, that's CEO, that's the mail clerk. If you're governing your life right now, and there's nobody in your life that can tell you no, when a bad decision or a bad, bad move comes up or inappropriate, you don't have anyone to self check you, and you're just waiting for the next bad decision to come.

So you in sixth grade started selling weed, and then kind of what happened on that path? How did you end up. Did you get into the juvie system finally?

100%. I mean, sixth grade, you start selling weed. Now I'm out in the. What we used to do, be clear, was the older kids would sell weed. My job was to run back and forth to the stash house and bring it to them. So I got like 30, 35 bucks a day, which doesn't sound like a lot of money, except if you're this dirt poor with nothing. If you're a free lunch Kid, 35 bucks a day is a lot of money, so. And back then, a pair of sneakers cost $20, not 200. So it was like I got a saying, if you get on the wrong street and walk, at some point, you're gonna hit the end. So I got on the street. I enter the street as a drug dealer, for the lack of a better term. Then I went to a gun carrier and I went to somebody getting fights. I got. Somebody just says progressed all the way up.

And so what was it that finally got you in front of the judge?

What finally got me in front of the judge was a bunch of armed robbery. I used to sell drugs, and then I started robbing people who sold drugs because it was just so much easier and they had so much money. So I Went to prison for robbing drug dealers.

Wow.

They had the cash, you took it. And how old were you then?

18.

At 18, okay, so you got sentenced to 100 years.

7 to 10. 7 to 10 years. 9 to 10. 9 to 10. 10, 10. 15 and 20. 15 and 20. 3 to 5. 3 to 5 and 5. It's 105 years is what they get. Well, I had 95, and I picked up two attempted murder charges inside and got 10 more, which pushed it to 105.

Oh, my gosh. So what was it like hearing that when you got sentenced to that amount of time in prison?

You know, I mean, by then you just. You just. You're in a rhythm. It's is what's expected. It's like if you're an honor roll student in second semester, they tell you you got an A. You're like, okay, cool. If you're flunking out and they tell you got an F. Okay, cool. This is where your path is going. So anything that happens on that path isn't spectacular, I'm saying. So there's some things are expected from you depending upon what you're doing. So based on how I was living, nobody was shocked. And they said, oh, Dre's in court again, or Dre's going to prison. Yeah, we knew that. And when I got to the prison, all my friends said, what took you so long? We've been waiting for you. We knew you was coming. It's like when you get someplace and you're like, wow, this is. This would be perfect for Johnny. Where's he at? And then, boom, Johnny shows up. How we knew you was gonna come. Yeah, this is your thing. So my lifestyle was so clear that you knew where I was gonna end up if I didn't go to prison. It had been amazing also, that it was amazing that I went. If LeBron James didn't become like the all time greatest NBA player next to Michael Jordan, they'd be like, what happened? He had everything going for him. It was all lined up. He was expected to be there. Well, I had everything lined up for me to go to prison.

Take us through what it's like walking from outside of prison into prison.

Scary. If I had to pick one word. Going to state or federal prison is scary. The first day I went to the county jail, I. Scared of death. Scared to death. I mean, I fight. I'm tough, but this is a place I don't know. These are people I don't know. So I'm just scared. And then you fight through Your fears. And then you win some false hope and you stop being scared. Which was the worst thing that happened to me. I won my first fight in the county jail.

I'd have been much better off if I lost my first fight. I mean, I beat the guy up and I was like, okay, people celebrating me, okay, I'm good here. They celebrating me. So let me do that again. I beat up somebody else, they celebrated me some more. Okay, I'm cool now. So I'm getting affirmation about, I can do this. Versus had I went in, that guy punched me on my face and knocked the tooth out, I'd have been like, I ain't going back there no more. Worst thing that happened to me is I won my first two fights.

Worse than that.

I told myself, I can do this when I was scared. That was the greatest time to get me actually had the TV show scared straight. It's not you yelling at me when I'm in that holding cell, I'm scared to death. My fears are on flame. And then I found out I didn't let me be scared about I can do this. And that was the worst thing that ever happened to me. When I realized I had the capacity of doing time in prison, the fair went away and arrogance took over.

So when you went into the actual federal, you went into federal prison.

I went to the state prison. I went to the state prison first, and then I was in the state prison for, like, 10 months. I was so violent and incorrigible that the state prison called the federal prison, and they shipped me, they traded me. They did a prisoner exchange. They said, we can't keep him here. He's too violent. So they did a prisoner exchange, and they sent me to the federal government as a transfer. And I was in the federal government for two and a half years. And I was so out of control there, they called the state back and said, give us our people back. You're getting him back. And they kicked me out. So they sent me back to Massachusetts. That's when I picked up the two attempted murder charges. They put me back in solitary. And I'm thinking, I'm winning. You could not tell me I was not winning.

So what was going through your mind when you were this super violent guy? I mean, because sitting here talking to you right now and hearing your story about going to Paris and all over Europe, I don't see that. I mean, I don't see that in you at all.

You know, you don't owe me. You don't owe me any cigarettes.

Yeah, exactly.

You owe me a couple packs of cigarettes and pay late. No, but seriously.

You get into a system and you morph into what's in it. You become what's around you. I'm saying people say money gives you the chance to be a better version, a bigger version of yourself. Well, prison gives you a chance to be another version of yourself. And I went in, it's like, I gotta survive, I gotta make it, I gotta be accepted. So I'm gonna copy what I see other people doing. And the most violent guy has the most control. And I'm a control freak. So I'm going to do it the way that this, this, hey, the most violent guy wins, he's in charge. I'll be the most violent guy. And it was, it was a, it was a rationalization versus anything else. I realized that, hey, if I hurt people in prison, then people will respect me. I get status. And I justified it by saying that they're criminals. I'm not beating up little old ladies at the bus stop. I'm beating up gang members, I'm beating up murderers, I'm beating up rapists, I'm beating up stick up kids. I'm not out terrorizing people. Anybody here's a criminal. And you all, you all sign up for this. So it's like, that's how it goes.

Isn't there always the next toughest guy coming along? I mean, is there somebody always wanting to challenge 100?

So I realized early on this is the better way that fighting people aren't scared to fight. You can get two guys. How many people got in the ring with Mike Tyson knowing they were going to lose? Yeah, they still got in the ring. They're like, because they're not scared of fighting. If Mike Tyson had a knife, how many people get in the ring with him?

No one.

I put down a gloves and picked up a knife. I said, I know how to position myself with a no, no lose clause. I'm saying my thing was I'm gonna be the most extreme. I'm not going to beat you up. That's Mike Tyson. And you fight him. And because too many people fought him, people, people fought Mike Tyson, Muhammad Ali, George Foreman. Nobody's ever not climbed in a ring, even though they won't get knocked out or not. So for me, I realized that if even Mike Tyson got beat, Muhammad Ali got beat, George Foreman got beat, they all got beat. So I'm like, nah, let me up, let me up. The price to fight Andre, there's a different price. Are you willing to give your life to do combat with me. This. This isn't a knockout. Either I die or you die. Those are the stakes. And very few people, for the most part, nobody wanted to put those stakes on the table. Hey, you fight me, I might knock you out. You get a black eye busted. Lip. Yeah, I'll go for that. You come at me, one of us is dying.

If it's you. If it's me, one of us gotta die. If you want to do that, keep it moving, because I'm not. I'm not rolling around on the floor with you. And so I upped it, and I. When I get. I went to that status, nobody wanted to deal with me. They're like, okay, he's playing a whole nother game.

Gotcha. I. I remember. I think I remember you telling a story about when you walk into prison, you're given a manual, if you will, of how you're supposed to act from the prison. But then when you walk into the. With the. The inmates, you're given a different set of rules.

My first couple of days at the prison, I went down to the caseworker's office, and she told me, I can get a forklift degree. I get my ged, I can get a college degree. All this stuff that I could do while I was in prison. I was like, wow, I didn't know this about prison. Did you know you can get a ged, a forklift degree, college degree, high school. I'm like, whoa, this is great. I went back and I called my mom. Like, mom, it's not that bad here. I can get all these degrees and make my life better. When I come home, I'll be able to do something. She says, great, son. The next morning, I'm at the gate, waiting to go to the school building. Then the homies rolled up on me and said, dre, where you going? So I'm going to school. I'm about to better my life. They're like, ah, he got the caseworker speech. So what do you mean? They said, you see them guys over there? That's the white guys. When they find out that you're on your own, they're gonna beat you up and take your stuff. And that casework is not going to help you. You see them guys over there? That's Latino gang. The white guys finish, they're going to run in and beat you up because you're by yourself, and. And the casework is not going to come help you. You see them guys over there? That's the black guys on the other side of town. When the white guys and Spanish guys finish, they can go on and beat you up. When they find out you ain't got nothing, they're going to beat you up again for not having nothing. And the casework is not going to help you. If you hang out with us, we'll make sure nobody does anything to you. Nothing will ever happen to you unless it happens to all of us. So it's all of us or you can go by yourself. So I looked at the white guys, looked at the Spanish guys, looked at the black guys, looked at the guys in front of me. I took that little photo they gave me, threw that shit in the trash. He handed me a knife and I'm on deck. That was like my first okay, this is how life in prison goes. It's not how you want it to go. Your life is in the hands of other criminals. You have people who've made awful choices throughout their entire lives now governing your life. Which was what made me say, I don't want these people governing my life. I want to be in charge. The only way to be in charge is to raise up to number one. When always raise up to number one is to go down this path of hurting people. Because if you don't get to be number one, then other people will decide your life for you. And I didn't want that. I can't wake up every day, hey, are they going to rape me today? Are they going to take my TV today? Are they, are they going to take my, my Snickers and my candy bars and my sneakers today? Are they going to, what are you going to do to me today? I can't wake up every day in fear of something happening to me. So I said, I'm going to take control of the fear. I'd rather be the bully than a bullied in prison.

So take us through a day now you're number one guy in prison. You're the guy. What's that? Take us through a day in the life of the number one guy in prison.

My day starts about 4:35 o' clock when I wake up in a single cell. And I, and I said at the end of my bed, I said, okay. I control contraband, I control drugs, I control money, commerce. So I wake up every morning, sit on my bed, I said, okay, not who wants to kill me today? Because everybody in the prison technically wants to kill me because they want my job. Who doesn't want to be Bill Gates? Who doesn't want Bill Gates checked? Imagine if you can Be Bill Gates just by stabbing him. If that was the case, Bill's like, you don't have to be smarter than me. You don't have to open up another company that I can buy out. You just have to get close enough to stab me, then you can have my position. Bill Gates would have been out of here a long time ago. And the same thing with every other CEO. If all you had to do was get Jeff Bezos and beat him down, then you can get on Amazon. He wouldn't be owning Amazon for too much longer. No. So in prison, if you can beat me down or kill me, you get my. You get my position. So every morning at 4 o', clock, I wake up, I say, not who wants to, but who's going to try today? And I would go through my database of all the variables, the things that happened the day before, everything that moved, and I'm like, okay, it's going to be Stephen. And I deduce, why Stephen today or why Johnny today or why Rakin today? And I'd figure it out. Because if you don't figure out someone wants to kill you before they do, then you're dead. If I figured out when you get to my cell door that, oh, it was you, I'm dead. So I am forced to figure it out in advance. So I have to look at who came in, what gang are they a part of, who left, what gang are they a part of, who's in solitary, what co's working, what shift is it, whose birthday is it, whose mother died today. I got to think of every single variable that's happening in this jail that's going to impact my life. Because when I get it wrong, I die. Is get it right or die, there's no in between. And I wake up every morning at the end of my bed and I come up with, who's it going to be today? Then I would go see them first and confront them like, yo, bro, I think you got a plan to kill me later on today. Like, what are you talking about? Because I have to figure it out before you figure it out. See, the funny part is you haven't figured it out yet. Because once you figure it out, I lose. So I got to get to you before you figure it out, which was always crazy. I would come to you and give you the rationalization for why he was going to try to kill me today. You're like, damn, that makes a lot of sense, Andre.

But I would bring two or three guys with me who will be ready to murder you. Like Listen, man, I hate to have to murder you, but it's you or me, right? And I would explain to you the scenario that you're going to be faced with that's going to bring you to the conclusion of killing me. And I'll say to you, hey, bro, how do you think I should handle this? I should wait till 12 o' clock and you roll on me? Or should I get you ahead at 9 o'? Clock? You can like, come on, Dre, it's not like that. I didn't have that thought yet. You can't hold me today. Yes, I get. And I, I would look at you in society and make a decision. Do you really pose a threat to me? Are you willing? You're standing down now, can I believe in that? Now, in prison, you go by your word. You can't. Everything's the word. What you say is, is authentic and is real. So if you say, hey, I'm standing down, I'm not going with that plan, and you double back, then you're not, you're not. It's not a respectable move. It's like a cheap shot. So if I can get you to stand down and I can believe that you're going to stand down, I keep moving. If I didn't, they take you out on a stretcher.

Wow.

Every day, every day, every morning, 4, 4:30, I'm like, what happened yesterday? Who came in, who left, who got mad, who teamed up with. You're. You're in a white, You're a white guy. So you got, you. You're from whatever part of town and it's 30 of you. Well, your cousin just came to the prison and he's in the other white gang and it's 30 of them. So that means your cousin being a member of the other gang. And that means your 2 gang is now going to merge because you have a lynch, you have, you have that, that hinge to bring you both together. So I'm not dealing with 30, I'm dealing with 60 now. So now I'm dealing with 60 people. Because you got that linchpin. The con before yesterday was just two separate gangs. But because your cousin is a top member in that gang and he just came back, now you two are going to unite. So now I got 60 people I'm dealing with versus 30. So now somebody's gonna have the bright idea that you should get a larger percentage of what's going on in the prison. Because you're 60, not 30. 30 and 30 gets what it gets, but 60 gets more than that. So what's standing? In a way, you getting a bigger percentage, Andrew. So you're gonna have your lynchman. You're gonna have to meet together to 60D. We got way more soldiers. We can make more power moves. We got more for a power move because we have a united front of 60 people. So I got to come see you at 9 o' clock in the morning and be like, listen, bro, I know your cousin just came. He's gonna come to you when he gets. He's still a new man. He hasn't got out a new man yet. But when he gets out, he's going to come to you with this great idea of your two gangs uniting and that y' all should get more lion's share, profit share, what's going on? And. And Andre's in a way, so it's like two days away. But I'm here in advance because I know your cousin and I know you, and I know your man. It's only a matter of time before y' all get together. I'm like, yeah, it makes sense. It would make sense to me. So I'm here to have a conversation. How are we going to do this? Wow.

You got to be not only tough, you got to be smart.

I mean, you got tough. Tough only lasts but a week tough will get you through the first week. Because if all you are is tough, they can get you out. The way that you're gonna respond to the first slight, you're gonna respond to the first thing, you're just gonna crash out. We call them crash dummies. Something's gonna happen, it's gonna make you crash out, and then you're no longer a threat. If I want to get rid of you, I'll just send some dude over there to call you out your name. You're gonna beat them up, they're gonna take you off the camp. You're out of here. It's real easy to get rid of crash dummies.

So you can't be tough enough.

Tough doesn't get it. You have to out think 2000 people every day.

So how did you end up going from the leader of the gang in prison to solitary confinement?

All right, I tried to kill a couple of people. I mean, again, in prison, the status is violence. That's communication. That's the currency. Your name is, is how tough you are and how violent you are. And I was trying to actually be the ultimate. The ultimate guy in prison. Somebody who murdered someone in prison. Doesn't matter what you did on the street. How much money you made, whatever, it doesn't matter is what have you done back here. Nobody cares what you did in college, what are you doing out here in entrepreneurship world. But it cares what you did in your startup. What are you doing Entrepreneurship world. And that's how you judge people. When you see NBA plays, it's how many rings you got, they stay clowning. Charles Barkley because he doesn't have rings. Yep. That's always the first joke. You don't have any rings. Charles. He was a great player, all time great. Doesn't have a ring. Always go down as him. Kyle Malone, Patrick, you and John Stock and get a list of them. Dominic Wilkins don't have ranks. And this, it takes them out of the greatest of all times discussion.

That.

You were going to be the best.

Going for the top.

I think, I think you said you were really good at stabbing, but not very good at killing or something.

Like, listen, I'm so happy that nobody actually physically died and wasn't for lack of trying. I just sucked at killing people. You're saying I am. Listen, one of the skills you'd want to be bad at killing people should be one of them. Saying, I was, I had the heart, I had the courage, I had the fortitude, I had the will. Had to decide. I just wasn't good at it. I mean, it wasn't for lack of trying. I just was not good at killing people. So. And lo and behold, my job now was saving people. I'm great at saving people. So what? People with depression, suicide, you see, imposter syndrome. I'll pull you back. But I, I just am really, really bad. It wasn't in me. God was like, that's not your calling. No matter what. Some people will never be super wealthy, some people will never be super whatever because it's just not for them.

So what was, what was it like to go into solitary confinement?

Solitary confinement is, it's. It's the ultimate challenge because you're in there with yourself. See, the world is full of distractions. I got an iPhone, I got a computer, I got a car outside. I got books in front of me, I got books behind me. I got a trumpet, I got, I got stuff to do, I got people to talk to. I got stores I can go to, I got restaurants. You never have to confront yourself. When is the last time you just sat down for an hour in a room with nothing and just focused on you like, yo, who am I and why am I here and where's my life at? Am I happy with My life, What are the decisions I made? And I sat there in a cell 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And I had to confront myself, which is something I had never done before. Because in population, you always be distracted. With a gang fight, some hustling, some basketball, you can be distracted. There are no distractions. In solitary 24 hours, you will face yourself. And I've watched a lot of people go crazy, crack up, commit suicide, set themselves on fire, cut up because the reality of who they are was too much to bear.

So are you really ready to deal with who you are and you really want to meet who you are? The person that I had somebody say, the worst thing that could happen is at death, you meet the person that you should have been.

But who are you now? And why are you here? Once last time, you ask yourself, why are you alive? We, I watch people every, they go day to day, they find stuff to do. I'm building this house, I'm building this business I'm doing is stuff to do. When is the last time you've asked yourself, why am I here?

And this, I mean, cut everything else out. The way I watch people confuse business with purpose, charity with purpose. I'm saying, raising a family with purpose. I'm saying all this other stuff, reading books with purpose. What is your purpose? And I sat in a cell and I had to ask myself, what is my purpose? And I ran. I'm in a 10 by 8 foot cell and I'm running like crazy for myself. But eventually question came back and came back and it came back and I was like, you know something? I am not this person I'm pretending to be. I'm not this drug dealer, I'm not a gang leader, I'm not a murderer, I'm not a. I am a criminal, but I'm not these other things. I'm not a bad person. I just made dumb choices.

And that can change. And I said, who are you? And are you really ready to change that? And I came to grips. I sat in the cell for almost two and a half years with one question, who are you, Andre Norman? And when I finally figured that out.

Then I said, well, what's in the way of Andre Norman being the best version of himself? And I wrote those things down. Then I started working on those things that were stopping me because it's a clear distinction what's stopping me from being the best version of myself. And I knocked those things out. And I got a thing that I say to people, you never have to give somebody who's gifted more, more gifts or more opportunity need to take the pain out of their life. The potential wasn't stopping me from being great. It was a pain in my life. So once I realized who I was and the thing that was stopping me from being great was my personal pain. And I found a way to remove that personal pain. And I went from the basin of a prison illiterate ex gang member to someone who worked in the White House. Someone that the United nations calls and acts for global terrorism. Help with somebody country Honduras in West Africa calls to help with cartels and people dying child soldiers. I'm the guy that Joe Pops is called if somebody calls him, the number one mastermind group in the world. But the family issue. So I am now, how did I go from basement for prison a nobody to being one of the most sought after change agents on planet Earth? I finally figured out why I was here and I figured out what was stopping me from being that thing.

And so many people just, well, I got a job. It makes money and that. Yeah, I got, I got a nice house, I got a boat, I got an insurance package. I gotta, I'm just gonna just go day to day and I've seen so many people, my father included. I put my father on that list. My father's 82 years old in an assistant living house in Connecticut and he's miserable. You know why? He's looking back over his 82 years and he says, I wasn't my authentic self. I was who my dad wanted me to be. I, I was who my mom wanted me to be. I was who my wife wanted me to be. I was who my kids wanted me to be. I was who my friends wanted me to be. I was all these things other people wanted me to be. And he lost himself a long time ago. So I look at people and I'm like, stuff. I, I work with some of the wealthiest people on planet Earth. Ypo. I've been to Saudi Arabia, Australia, I've been all over the planet and I went to Saudi and it was a guy there, he says he's stressed out. He's like, Greg, what do I do? He says, I have a son and my son is doing phenomenal. He's, he's, he has everything he wants. My dad taught me, work hard, save money, take care of your family. Then the boom came in Saudi and he became a multi, multi millionaire. So his son has enough money for retirement at 19. Says, how do I motivate him? He says, how do I motivate a 19 year old who's a multi millionaire. He doesn't have to work, is there. And he was just lost as I had to go in and help him figure out how to talk to his son around, getting him encouraged and getting him on track. I get calls every day like, hey, Dre, I got this kid, my daughter, my niece, my whatever, and they damn near suicidal because they can't figure out their purpose.

It's not that they didn't get selected to a team or people don't want to be their friend. Those things matter when you don't know who you are.

So somebody come out now. Dre, I hate your guts. That's nice. Have a nice day. Hope you're doing well. It doesn't bother me if you just said it to me. When I was in sixth grade, I'd had a heart attack. Oh, my God. You have to like me. You can't not like me, or you can't play trumpet. Because if we don't think it's cool, oh, my God. Y' all have to think it's cool if you don't think it's cool. I can't live and follow the leader. I do leadership development. I don't do follower training. So to help people be better is what I do. And first and foremost, first, you got to find out who you are. Then I'm going to show you how to activate that. And if I can go from the basement of a prison to working at the White House and the UN and London Business School and Genius Network and War Room ypo eo, I go down the list. I went from the base in the prison to the top agencies on planet Earth with very little help. What can your. What can your listeners go to? I'm assuming they're living in houses and not trailer parks. I don't think by listening to this podcast in a homeless shelter. So they have means. They have access to people like you who have means. So it's not about having. It's about embracing. So what I want to do is help people activate that thing inside of them. They say, dre, you got edge. I call it my edge training because it take over Maximus Kerdi prison. It takes edge. And to fight your way back up out of that place takes edge. And to walk into West Africa or Honduras or Ferguson, Missouri, or any other places. I had to walk into Harvard and feel like I belonged there, because I did. I walked into the White House. I feel like I belonged there because I did. That's. That's. I embrace my edge, and I embrace my Gift. I embrace my edge and I exercise. That's it. I'm not the best at everything. I'm the best at what I'm the best at.

So how did you get from solitary confinement to the White House? Take us on that journey. How did you get there?

Well, I became my own first client. I seen the Hair Club for a minute. I didn't join that club. I need to be the head club guy. But.

I came up with a plan that I wanted to go home first. I had to understand what I didn't want. See, people stop picking what they do want, but they didn't get rid of what they didn't want. So the first thing I had to do was decide I no longer wanted to be king of the prison. That was first step. Before I decided I want to go to Harvard. I decided I didn't want to be king of the prison. So I gave up the false hope or the dumb dream. Then I looked in the mirror and said, okay, what do I want to be? I said, I want to be free. I'm in prison. I want to be free. Then I went to second step. Most people go to first step and they stop. You want to be free. That makes sense, right? Let's help you get free. Know what free is for me? The parking lot. I hit the parking lot, I'm free. I have no plan beyond the parking lot. So I go back to what I was doing before because I'm hitting my max. So I said, I don't want to be free because free is only the parking lot. I don't want to just be to the parking lot. I want to go beyond the parking lot. So, well, what do I want to go beyond the parking lot? I want to be successful. Successful people go to college. I said, I go to college. I picked a school called Harvard. I go home, go to college and be successful. That was the goal.

And then I looked in the mirror. I said, well, what's inside of me stopping this dream from happening? I said, I'm black. Said I can't read. I said, I'm a gang leader. I said, I'm violent. I have anger issues. I'm saying my family doesn't support me. I don't read well. I'm saying I got 105 years in prison. I made a list of the things that were in the way of me attending Harvard University. So at first I went back to school and got my ged. Then I went to anger management programs. Then I went to self help groups and I taught myself the law because it wasn't me fighting on the yard. It was keeping me in jail. It was me not fighting my case in court. So I taught myself the law and reversed my case on appeal. And I just kept fighting all the. I made that list and I worked on that list, and every single day I put all of my energy and effort into that list and making sure I took that list down. And I did. And then once I got past the prison part, it took me eight years. I didn't do it in eight days. Eight years of 20 hours a day being committed to the goal of success. And so you would look at me, well, this guy is this. This was a successful guy. Acts like. So I couldn't just be a tough guy in the daytime and successful at night. I had to be successful all the time. Starting today. It's not when I get there, it starts today. Hold me accountable for what I say I'm going to be today. So many people want to be held accountable after they achieve it. So I cut all the corners, cheat all the people, do all this stuff. Don't start holding me accountable for being rich until I get the money. You have to embrace it and embody it on the front end. So I embase, embraced and embodied being successful on the front end. And I walked around at prison like I was at Harvard already. Like I was a Harvard student. They're like, yo, why are you acting like that, man? It's a Harvard student. Act like, man, you ain't never going to Harvard, whatever. And when I got there, I had already been there. So I didn't have overwhelmed by imposter syndrome or you shouldn't. I've been here for years, dude. It just took me while to get to the campus. And when I got to the campus and I was there and I was received. And that's another thing. There's getting in the room and then they're staying in the room. So I got in the room, man. He actually made it to Harvard. That was the easy part. Not getting kicked out was the hard part. I going to act like a fool or idiot or gang leader. They're kicking me about it. What's the point of going if you're not going to comport yourself in a way that makes you amenable and want people to keep you around? So it was just eight years of working on one list. A, who am I? B, who don't I want to be and see what's stopping me from being the A? And that is abc. I'm gone. It wasn't no Hulk. But then the accountability part is, I have a lot of accountability coaches and a lot of accountability partners and a lot of mentors. It wasn't just me just pulling my boots up. I had a lot of help, but I had to ask for the help. I had to accept the help. People in my life tell me no now. You couldn't tell me no when I was a gang leader. Who are you? So once I became a student, you could tell me no. You could tell me, there's another way to do it. There's a better way to do it. And I listened, and I applied. So the way I got from the basement of prison to Harvard was I embraced who I was supposed to be, let go of who I didn't want to be, and then became a student of everything it took me to be that thing.

So this. I'm sure people listening to this are thinking the same question I am. When you get out of. So you go into solitary confinement, the leader of the gang in solitary confinement, you become somebody different. Now you come back out. How were you accepted? And how were you able to stay out of, you know, getting your butt kicked?

This is a question I asked you folks, if you saw Mike Tyson at the gas station, would you talk shit to him? No. He's retired, though.

He's still tough.

Exactly. So when I. When I retired, I was still Andre Norman. So I didn't become some, like, some friendly, soft guy, used to get beat up all the time. What were you. What was the best case scenario for poking at me that you could hope for not dying.

That's the best case scenario you can hope for. So my reputation gave me a lot of latitude. And going forward, I had a couple guys challenge me, hey, Dre, why are you going to programs all the time? Why are you in that building all the time? And then why are you doing. And they kept challenging me. I said, listen, my father and me had a bad relationship. It's caused me to not believe in myself and to have, like, quitter syndrome. And you don't really get all that. You don't really care. I need to go to counseling so I can fix the relationship between me and my dad to make my life better. They said, dre, you're the smartest guy in prison. You don't need to go to counseling. I said, I am, but that's why I'm going, because I'm the smartest guy here. I figured it out. They said, what's really going on up there? They started challenging, like, my integrity. I said, I tell you what? I'm going to counseling them all. And it's two things I can talk about. I'm gonna let you choose which I talk about. I can either go to counseling and talk about me and my dad not getting along and him letting me down and it affected my decision making, or I can go to the unit, get my knife, stab you in the face, and I can talk about that. But either way, I'm going to. What do you prefer I talk about? The guy looked at me, he said, man, Dre, that's awful what your dad did to you, man. You need to go get that fixed. I said, you sure? Are you sure? Because I have no problem talking about you. If you want to be the topic of my conversation among counseling, you can be. And I will stab you dead in your face right now. And we'll just. You're not gonna stop me.

I really didn't want to stop him. But in prison you can't just be soft. And it's not like what you want. Like, I gotta stand for this. And I mean right now. When I go out to help white kids, people like, yo, Dre, why you helping the white kids, man? When we did dope, we were addicts. We would scum the earth. Now white kids do dope. It's opioids. And they're. They're victims. And it's. It's a health problem. We did it. We were criminals. White kids do it. They're. They're. It's a health problem. Why are you helping white kids, man? How you help these people, man? We in jail for selling weed. Now they all got weed shops. They ain't letting none of us out of jail. There's an undercurrent in the community, says I can't help white people because of unjust systems and laws from before. And that's true. It's been unfair and it's been unjust in a lot of spaces and places. But there's a 15 year old kid in Montana who needed my help. She was a white kid and she was trying to commit suicide. She didn't protest, she didn't vote, she didn't slam any doors. She didn't deny me access to housing. She's just a 15 year old white girl whose life was fucked up. And I flew to Montana, Helena, to help that one girl because I wanted her to live. I want everybody to live. And I tell all my brothers and comrades and arms who I said, listen, do you help kids or do you help black kids? I said, I help all. I am Always going to be pro black. Don't ever get it twisted like, Dre's all he's down in. I'm not down the middle. I'll always chant and rule for black people. It's just who I am. But I'm a servant for all people. I don't not show up because you're white. I don't not show up because you're Spanish. I don't not show up because you're Asian. If you call my phone, I'll show up. And I'm gonna give you just as much energy because I don't know one way to do things all out. So if I show up, I don't have two gears or this is the people that look like me gear and people that don't look like me gear. No, I show up. I show up. But. But it took me a while to learn to transition. When I first came home, I worked with black kids because I was comfortable there. Then I started working with girls. I got comfortable there. And somebody said, hey, Dre, man, there's some white kids. You ain't helping because they white and their parents want to pay you. I said, white kids ain't got no problems. Went to the white school. They drink, smoke, got issues, too. I didn't know that. I grew up watching Brady Bunch, Leave it to Beaver. White kids never had problems. So I went to the white school. These kids are cutting up and cutting their wrists and committing suicide. I was like, damn. I said, never again. Why? Just somebody. Based on my ignorance. If you call me, I'll come. But I had to grow to that. And I said, I. In the beginning, I helped a certain group of people, and I grew to where I am now, and I have to give the same space for the next person who's white or Spanish or Asian who has to grow to the space of saying, okay, I'm going to embrace black people. It's not. It's not my normal. They didn't live next door to me. I have no reference. So it's not. I'm not expecting you. This is the right thing to do. No, you have to get context. That's get your hands dirty. You have to have experiences, and it's my job to help folks have those experiences so they can then go back in their own space and place and say, okay, I met a cool black guy. I met a straight up black guy. Some people just haven't. Some people just haven't. And they just. They need to meet Andre or whoever's going to be their first guy. Lets them know they listen. Okay. It's not everybody.

Gotcha. So let's talk for a minute about Detroit. What I know you've got something big happening in Detroit. At least the last time we talked.

You, the plan for Detroit was I'll go to Detroit and help them with the gun violence. We have a gun violence problem in America. People are shooting people at alarming rates. So the deal with this is I'm creating a gun violence solution for America. And I started programming in 1980, 1999 as a free person. I've created all kinds of programs. So we create. We helped create the Office of Faith Based and Community Initiatives for George W. Bush. We've created Violence Interrupters. We created Home. I can go on a list of programs we've created and now nationally based. The mayor of Detroit and the deputy mayor of Detroit, they want to keep their people alive and as does every other city. So my challenge is to sit down and create a comprehensive gun violence program that's going to save lives in this country full stop. And it's not dedicated to any one. I mean, Detroit's definitely on the list. I mean, I'm there, but we have to do something. Like I said, the people listening to this part, what is your purpose? My purpose is I solve problems. I can solve small problems. I can small, big problems. I can solve problems that pay me. I can solve problems that keep people alive. So right now, as an American citizen, I say I live in the best country on the planet Earth. We have a problem, and am I willing to take your time and extend my energies and gifts to solving this problem?

And you and I talked that one day about how similar what you're thinking or what you're planning on doing in Detroit was to the mayor of Kingstown. That TV show.

Yeah. I watched American King Sound and I like the show to a certain extent. It's like they had a show called Oz. As someone who's done time, the prison stuff is never going to be 100 authentic to me. Like, I'm quite sure that some cops will say it's not like that. So from a prisoner or gang member perspective is slightly different. But I get it. It's kind of like that. If I was the mayor of Kingstown, I'd be more on the gang side than on the police side. It would have the same result. Instead of me being side by side with the police every day, I'd be side by side the gang members and going to the police versus the other way around. But it runs like that in real Time.

So, yeah. How much of the crime in and gun violence in Detroit comes from inside the prisons?

I wouldn't say Detroit. I would say nationwide. People go to jail, they don't disappear. Him saying, you go to jail. They have cell phones. I mean, they have house phone, they have phones, they have Internet. They have all kinds of access to talk to people in the free world. So whether it's a phone, it's a video visit, it's a real visit, it's a radio, it's a letter. So if I don't like you, I can tell my. The gang I just came from, hey, I don't like him, and I need to do X, Y or Z. So there's a lot of communication between people who you just gave 50 years to, who have no incentive to send out a positive message versus somebody who's incentivized to give up positive messages. And part of my program includes the prison system as part of the solution, because you can't act like they've disappeared. You have 2 million people sitting in a prison cell. They're real and they need to be part of the solution, not just left to the sidelines. What makes them part of the problem?

I had a. When I was a dentist, I had a patient that was homeless for 19 years and inherited some money and came in to get his teeth fixed. And I asked him one day, if you were tasked with solving the homeless problem, would you know what to do? And he said, yeah, I could solve it in no time flat. So I'll ask you the same question. If you were tasked with solving the issue of so many people being incarcerated in our prison system, would you know what to do to.

100%? 100%. My mother taught me a long time ago, boy, if you got a solution, keep your mouth shut. Because they're going to call you uptown one day and they're going to put you in that big chair and they're going to ask you, how do you solve this problem when you can't do it? They're going to say, look, the best and the brightest of you can't solve it. We're going to do it our way. I date them to call me to the State House, to Congress, wherever we can fix prisons. It is a fixable solution. It starts with education. Every next criminal, every next school shooter, every next gang member, every next drug addict is sitting in the K1 right now. K1, K2, first grade. And we're ignoring them. We're paying them no attention. We're just casting them off and until that first grader becomes a 12th grader with a gun. We don't care to. That first grader becomes 17 years old and homeless. We don't care to. That first grader becomes a prostitute. We don't care. Let's get them before they make these bad choices. Because in kindergarten, I was a cool. I was the nicest guy in the school. I wore a suit, tie, did everything I was supposed to do. Then as I got older, the world took over. So if you say, Dre, what is your solution for prison? We have to go back to K1 and K2 and fix it. But I got to shoot. I have a hard stop at five, five or six.

Oh, all right. So last thing. If people are following you or want to learn more about what you're doing, participate in what you're doing, follow you, what's the best way for them to do that or get in touch with you?

The best way to get in touch with me is YouTube. I have a YouTube channel. I have Instagram channel. I have a TikTok channel. I have a LinkedIn channel. And they can always reach out to you because if they're. If they're not sure, they can call you. You can tell them how to reach me, but I'm definitely online, social media around the world. And this is my website, honor norman.com. so if you call me, I'll be helpful. That's all I can say. But don't tell yourself he won't help me because he's too busy. That's. That's one of the things blocking you from being great. Self talk. I love it.

Andre, thank you so much for being here. I was looking forward to today and. And connecting with you and hearing more about your story. So thanks for being here today.

We'll do part two once the people write. Y' all gotta send some comments in. Y' all gotta reply to this man. Let them know you want part two. And we'll come on in part two and tell them what you want to talk about, and then we'll come back and do part two. Because there's always a better way. I love it.

Thanks, Andre. All right, so it's time for our new segment, guess the why. And I want to use Scarface. Alphonse Capone. He was Chicago's most famous mob boss, and he spent eight months at Eastern State. In 1929-1930. He was arrested for carrying concealed deadly weapon. This was Capone's first prison sentence, and his time spent there was really in relative luxury. His cell was on Park Avenue block. On the Park Avenue block had fine furniture, Oriental rugs, cabinet radios. So what do you think his why is I believe that his why was like Andre's to find a better way. Even though he ended up going to prison, he found a better way to make it bearable and probably even enjoyable to some extent. So I believe his why is to find a better way and share it. So thank you so much for listening. If you've not yet discovered your why, you could do so at why institute.com you can use the code podcast50 and discovered at half price. If you love the beyond, you'd why Podcast? Please don't forget to subscribe below and leave us a review and a rating on whatever platform you are listening to our podcast on. Thank you so much and I will see you next week.

I really hope you enjoyed today's episode and that through today's guest you heard how important it is to know your why and how impactful it can be in your life and the lives of those around you. You be sure to head over to whyinstitute. Com and discover your why today. Remember, the more you know about yourself, the more you'll know about others. I'm Dr. Gary Sanchez and I'll see you on the next episode.