The WHY Of Trust: Hope, Life, Grief With Katty Douraghy

Welcome to beyond you'd why Podcast, where we go beyond just talking about your why and actually help you discover and then live your why. You see, we believe that knowing your why, that driving force behind every decision you make and every action you take, is the essential first step to really knowing yourself. It allows you to move forward faster and have a bigger impact. If you're already a fan of the show, then you know that every week we talk about one of the nine whys, and then we introduce you to somebody with that why so you can see how their why has played out in their life. This show will be more powerful for you if you've already discovered your why. If you still need to do that, head over to whyinstitute.com and discover your why today. It'll only take you about five minutes. Now let's meet today's guest. Welcome to beyond you'd why Podcast, where we go beyond just talking about your why and actually helping you discover and then live your why. So if you're a regular listener, you know that every week we talk about one of the nine whys, and then we bring on somebody with that why so you can see how their why has played out in their life. And so this week we're going to be talking about the why of trust, to create relationships based upon trust. So people with this why believe that trust is the most important thing and will work hard to create it. They will become educated as experts in a particular subject and demonstrate that expertise as a way of establishing trust. They will do things right in order to demonstrate that they are trustworthy. They want to know that you believe in them and will go the extra mile to demonstrate with their actions, words and deeds in communication with someone. With this why, you might hear words along the lines of, you can count on me. And so today I've got a great guest for you. Her name is Kati Duraghi and she is president of Artisan Creative, a staff and recruitment agency focusing on digital creative and marketing talent, and founder of Inspiring Hiring, an online resume and job posting portal. Kati is also a team and retreat facilitator, working closely with entrepreneurs to become better versions of themselves. Kati is the podcast host for the Artisan Podcast, sharing stories of creativity and inspiration. She is also the author of the Butterfly Years, sharing the lessons learned during a long period of grief and mourning that led to a path towards hope. Her last project, the Butterfly Years Journal, a daily journal from grief to Growth, came out in January of 2022. Kati believes we all have a story to share and that our greatest journey towards hope and healing is through self reflection and discovery. Kati, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, Gary. Thank you for that illustrious intro. I appreciate it.

Well, I've been looking forward to this for a while and we've been talking about doing this for quite a while because you are very familiar with the nine Y's and the Yos and all of this because you've been. Yeah, you've been doing this for quite a while. So let's first learn a little bit about you. So first tell us about your name. Katis. Better spell it for everybody because I don't know that I know anybody else with that name.

Absolutely. Happy to. It's short for Katoyoon, which is a fictitious princess's name in old Persian folklore. Ah, yeah. So all Katoyoons are Cattis because no one can pronounce Katayun. So here we go.

And so where did you grow up? Where were you born? Tell us what you were like in high school and. And kind of take us on your journey.

I grew up in Iran until the age of 13, and then we immigrated because of the revolution in IR Iran. So we immigrated first to England and then to the US So high school years were actually very tough for me. High school years were during the time that the hostages were taken. So the last thing I wanted to do was be Iranian. And I really tried very, very hard to suppress that side of me and my identity and kind of just shove it aside. I pretended I was Italian. I passed for many different cultures. I pretended I was Italian, Mexic, Indian, you name it, anything but Iranian. And it's taken many, many years to settle into who I am. And I think for many years I thought I didn't belong anywhere. Now I realize that I actually belong everywhere. I'm a mixture of east and west and everything in between. So that is me in a nutshell.

So you were in England during that time, Is that what you said? Or were you during the hostage us?

We were in England for a short time right after the revolution, but by the time we moved to the US it was around the time when the hostages were taken. High school was not fun.

Where was high school?

High school was in Northern California in a town called Cupertino, which everybody knows now because Apple is there. Apple wasn't there back then. And actually it is the same high school that Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak went to, Homestead High.

So did you know them?

No, they were before me.

Okay.

Yeah.

So take us into what it was really like back then, what was a day in the life of Iranian gal in high school like, going to. What was it like going to high school?

High school was tough because I started high school in the middle of ninth grade. So high school is not easy at any age, regardless of, you know, being a foreigner in the middle of the high school years. And then add to that what was happening out in the world. And I think at the time, many people didn't really know where Iran was, and they only associated Iran with the ayatollah or with the hostages. So it was a tough time. The beauty of what was happening during high school was that my cousin also lived with us at the time she immigrated, and her parents were still overseas. So she came with us and lived with us. So for the first three years of high school, three and a half years of high school, I had her. She was my security blanket. And I stuck to her really, really closely. And then she graduated early, she graduated early, and she left to go to Texas. And so for the last semester in high school, I had to figure out how to navigate waters. And as tough as it was, it was actually good for me not to have that security blanket. I think it allowed me to put myself out there. You know, my English was good. It wasn't great, but it forced me to force me to become great. I even became an English literature major in college. So something happened during that last year.

It forced you to trust yourself.

Yes.

And so then where did you go to college?

So I went to college in Santa Cruz, also in Northern California. But it's interesting you say that, Gary. I think in the beginning of high school years, I really didn't trust anyone else because I didn't trust where I was coming from. And it took me a while to recognize that and just recognize that I was on solid ground as who I was as a person. So by the time I went to college, it was when I had started to learn how to spread my wings. And then it was a completely different story. I was. I was out there. I had lots of friends. I was incredibly social. So I kind of came out of this chrysalis. Clearly, I've used the butterfly chrysalis analogy, it seems, throughout my life. But in high school, I was in this dark, darkness, dark place. And in college, I came out and I was the social butterfly. I was everywhere and.

Really just came into my own and I think found my voice then.

You know, it's interesting to think about somebody with the why of trust, not even in your circumstances, but just in general. Having to go through high school and, you know, nobody trusts themselves in high school. Nobody knows. At least most people don't.

I know.

I didn't. You know, you don't know where you're going, what you're about. You don't. You know, it's very challenging anyways. But with the why of trust, seeing as the most important relationship is your relationship with yourself, that can cause a lot of anxiety, I'm sure.

Oh, absolutely. This whole notion of self trust, it wasn't there. You know, I questioned everything I did, everything I said. And then if whatever I said didn't land well on someone, then that little voice in my head was like, okay, you did this wrong. And, you know, that is just such a difficult thing for.

A young person to go through. It can really set the stage for self doubt in later ages. And I'm fortunate that because of the trust that I was able to gain later on in my college years, it didn't end up having a lasting impact.

Okay, so off to college in Santa Cruz.

Yeah.

You majored in English or literature, you said?

I did English literature.

English literature. And then what did you do with that?

Nothing. I didn't do anything with it. I did learn how to speak English better, which I certainly needed that for having living here. And this is home for me now. But what I did after that is I went to the Fashion Institute of Design and merchandising. I was really interested in the fashion space. And I ended up working in retail and in fashion for 10 years. And where. This is a very interesting story where I could see my why. I mean, I can see it now. Obviously I wasn't aware of it back then, but where I could see how my why has impacted my career trajectory all these years. So when I started in retail, I was a personal shopper and we would get into dressing rooms with people to help consult on fit and color and shape and analyze body shapes to be able to make recommendations. There is nothing more intimate than being with someone who is trusting you to undress and allow you to, you know, give them some feedback as to what could be a stronger, better version of themselves. This, obviously, this is through clothing and through fashion. But when I look back on how my trust manifested itself, that was so powerful to be able to do that.

Wow.

Wow.

And so how long did you did that? Ten years, you said.

And then 10 years.

And then what happened after that?

And then my husband Jamie, who you know very well, recruited me to come and work for his company, which is the staffing and recruiting firm that I currently own and run. And he was like, you have all this experience, you've managed these larger teams, larger dollar amounts come, I could use your help. So I did. And that was an interesting thing, starting to work with your spouse. And we had to define roles, and I think that's where trust also had to really come into play, is him trusting me that I could run this business that he had started and he had founded, and me trusting myself that I wasn't going to let him down and that I was going to do things the right way to hopefully grow the business.

Okay, so for the listeners that aren't familiar with Jamie, Jamie is Kati's husband, and I've had him on the podcast before, and Jamie's got a fascinating story about how he discovered his why down in Argentina and then on his way back, decided he was going to put you in charge. Right.

You.

Then you became the CEO.

Yes. All because of the why. Gary, I should tell this story to your listeners. So Jamie went on this trip to Argentina and had an opportunity to have to discover his why while he was on this trip. And he comes back and he says, I figured out my why. I know what I'm going to be doing next. I'm stepping out of the business, and it's all yours. And I was like, what? You're doing what? And it was the beginning of this beautiful relationship. Understanding our whys and as a couple, understanding our whys and being able to communicate through that has been incredibly powerful. So a huge. I mean, I can't recommend it enough for anyone who's discovered their why to really encourage their spouse and partner to do the same, because it does impact how we communicate with each other, how we show up for each other. So, yeah, thanks, Gary.

Yeah, thanks for making me the CEO, huh? And let my husband roam free. But, you know, it's interesting because you have the why of trust, and he has the why of contribute, and that is a particularly good match, those two together. You know, you want to make sure that you create trust for him, and he wants to make sure that he contributes to you. And it doesn't get any better than that. That seems to be the combination that I have seen over time work the best. And you two happen to have that. Well, you know what I don't know, though, is how did you meet Jamie?

We met at a Halloween party. So for your listeners who may know his story, Jamie is a fencer. So he was at this Halloween party in full fencing garb with his mask and his weapon and all Dressed in white. And I was a cat, which, you know, not very imaginative, but I was a Persian cat.

Yes, of course.

And so the party was at a restaurant that had closed down for that evening. And they had all these Halloween decorations everywhere, and they had gourds and pomegranates and just as part of the decorations. And I love pomegranates. A huge, huge fan of it. So I was like, does anybody want to share a pomegranate with me? And Jamie stepped forth and even with his pristine white fencing outfit, he cut into this pomegranate. And that was it. So that was 20. So we met 30 years ago this year.

Oh, my gosh. Wow. Okay. So you took over the artisan, a creative, and then now you have been running that for how long? Because I know now you have some other interests as well on top of that.

Yes. So I've been running the business now since 2012, and I'm passionate about it. I think my why shows up there every day in the recruitment space if you cannot establish trust between both hiring managers, specifically, also with candidates, it takes a lot of trust for someone to leave a job and trust you that what you're presenting to them is the better opportunity for them. So I see that come into play on a daily basis. So trust really shows up in my everyday interactions. So I've been doing. I've been running automobile for 12 years. I have a great team. I'm still very involved, very hands on day to day. But I'm also passionate about a lot of other things. I'm passionate about facilitation, bringing people together, creating a space so they can have a trusted conversation with each other. So I'm very active on that side. And as you mentioned, a few years ago, I embarked, finally, using my English literature degree.

Embarked on this journey towards hope. Because of some personal tragedies that had happened in my life. I just knew I had to tell the story.

So let's talk about that for a minute. You wrote a book called the Butterfly Years, right?

Correct.

And what is the book about and who is the book for?

The book is about my journey through grief. So in 2011, I lost my stepmother in January, my father in February, and my mother in April of that year. And two years later, I lost my cousin Melisse, the same cousin who lived with me four years that we went to high school together that I mentioned. I lost her as well as my uncle. And then that was compounded by the loss of my stepdad. So two years after that. So for a four Year, period. It was a pretty dark time and one that was really, it was. This journey of grief was so overwhelming for me. I wasn't sure what and how to navigate it. While at the same time as I was going through grief, life was around me and love was around me. And I was just in this space of this duality of, you know, love and loss, death and life and all of that. And I just had a hard time coming to grasp with it. But once I did, I thought it was important to share that with other people. And that's kind of what forced me. You know, I needed to get this story out. And I think the story, sharing it was very cathartic to put it out there. But really my goal was to be able to help others who were going through what I was going through and what I had gone through and what I had learned. So the story initially wasn't intended to be a memoir. It became one. I can only assume that some people up there wanted to have their story told. It was intended, the journal was intended to be the only thing I was ever going to create. I wanted a self help manual for other people to navigate this journey. But clearly my story needed to come out first. So I did. It did. And the reason that it took so long for me to write it, it took me three years to write this teeny tiny little book, was going back to trust. I needed to make sure.

That I honored the legacy of my parents. So the book is specifically about my mom and my relationship with her. But other people, obviously their stories are in there too. But I wasn't trusting myself that I was telling her story in a way that was the right way. So I had several drafts, I crumbled papers, threw it out, rewrote and cried through the whole thing as I wrote it because it was so important to make sure that I was doing this properly. So it was really honoring and trusting the relationship I had with her. Her, not just in life, but in death as well. You know, I knew her story was going to continue by my writing it, writing about her. And it just had to be done the right way.

So what is grief?

Grief is different things for different people. And that's, I think my biggest lesson here is there, there really isn't one way to grieve, to experience.

Loss. What it was for me was a mixture of emotions. For some reason, I had read about grief and going through grief and I just thought it was this linear thing that you went through anger, then denial, then this and that. And it was not that. It Was just this big ball of a mess of emotions that went back and forth between sadness and happiness and talk about self judgment and trust and self trust. That to me, when I was. When I had a moment of respite, when I had a moment of. I would laugh at, we're watching the office, for example, I would laugh at what was going on. I did it with guilt. And I wasn't trusting that I was doing this the right way. Like, I kept questioning myself, am I honoring properly? Should I be grieving more? Am I. Like, if I laugh, is it the wrong thing? So what grief is, it's whatever anyone feels that it is for them. For someone, it has a very external expression, and for others, it's a very internal journey that they go through. Mine was a mishmash of everything.

So how did you learn? What happened to you? What was the turning point? What was the learning point to figuring out.

How to handle your grief?

It was simultaneous, Gary. At the same time that death happened, life was happening around me, and I had a hard time recognizing what was going on. So driving from the hospital to my stepdad's house, I was. This was April, so my mom passed away April 17th. And they're just looking out the window as we were driving. And I rolled down the window. Well, not roll down, but push the button to lower down the window. And looking out the window, it was beautiful. Like, I had not seen flowers that vibrant ever. I hadn't seen grass that green ever. And something had happened in me where I don't know if I had just, like, I woke up. It feels like I just woke up.

And while I was so distraught, I was also recognizing that, okay, something's happening. And, oh, my God, the sun did come out the next day, which I was not expecting for it to come out. So it's the loss and the grief and the learning to live with it happen simultaneously. Even though I wasn't. I didn't see it at the time. It took a few years to recognize that. But that juxtaposition of love and loss and life and death was so powerful from the very first moment. Colors were vibrant. Smells were too much. My taste buds were alive. It was a very hard thing to describe. But at the time, I was like, oh, I've never tasted this before, because every sense was just really heightened. And. And I believe this is just my. My personal belief. I believe that I was living for other people because they couldn't live anymore. So I think everything just kind of had kind of come into me. So they trusted me. With living life for them.

And why do you think you had that revelation or why do you think that happened to you?

I don't know. If I could pinpoint what happened, I would definitely have another book in me to be able to share that with others. I don't know what happened. All I can think about is at the moment when I watched death happen, when I witnessed my mom take her last breath, that's for the first time I realized how precious life was and that this was my opportunity to continue living and live it like I've never lived it before. I took over Artisan that same year, like within a few months of the loss happening. So something just. The switch was turned on and I was like, okay, I'm going to say yes to everything. I'm going to just take life by the horns and go for it. So that's my only explanation, is that witnessing death somehow sparked life within me.

So let's go back for a minute then. What was the turning point that you had from high school to college that sparked the scared Kati to the outgoing, creative Kati? What was that moment that allowed you to switch?

I think it was community. It was having a belonging, having a community that had acceptance. And by with that acceptance came this realization and kind of going back to my why came this realization that I could trust myself, I could trust others. That that was a really big piece of it is in high school I really didn't trust others either.

But in college I could. And everyone was from somewhere else. So we were all starting at the same time, same footing. Whereas in high school, I entered in the middle of this tumultuous period. Right, this tumultuous what was happening in the world. And in high school, in college, we all started the journey together. But it's really having this acceptance and being in a community that accepted me allowed me to, you know, just trust, trust myself. Wow.

And then when you're. When you had all the challenges with the family members passing, it seems like you were able to start anew again.

Yes, 100%. 100% again. That goes back to community as well. As you know, I'm very, very involved with the entrepreneurs organization with eo and I had. I had several opportunities through my volunteer work with EO to share my story and to. To be part of a community that really appreciated hearing it and have other people come up to me and say, no one's talked about grief like this before. Thank you. To be able to have that and realize that, okay, you know what? We don't Talk about death.

No one wants to talk about it, but it's the reality for all of us. And can we create a space, a trusted space, a safe space, to be able to talk about death and not feel that we're being judged, talk about grief, and not feel that we need to be rushed to get over it? Because we're all going to go through it at our own term and our own pace. Right.

So in a certain way.

In a certain way, the, you know, all the challenges that you went through, the death of your family members, ended up being a positive.

Yeah.

However that happened, it was flipped from grief to life.

Yes. Yes. I read a proverb, and I think this was the beginning of the journey towards hope was I read a proverb that said just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly. And that was something that I held on to. That was a lifeline that I really held onto it. And those darkest days, I would say, okay, I'm going to come out of this. This is a darkness. This is a chrysalis. I'm going to come out of it, and I'm going to be a butterfly and I'm going to take wing. And there were many days that I doubted that, but that's the. Just put one step in front of the next, and that's really what got me through.

So when you're done with grief, is it over or is it still linger, or is it still pop up every now and then, or how does that work?

It pops up all the time. I don't think it's over. I don't think there was a time that I thought maybe one would heal from it, but I've realized that is not the case. We learn to accept it and we learn to live with it, but it's there. A smell triggers it. A picture triggers it. A memory triggers it all the time. At the strangest of times, it just comes up, and it's a beautiful thing. I actually don't mind it coming up. I don't want to ever forget, and it's a reminder for me, and that's a good thing.

So from there, then, you and Jamie have started to work with couples in the organization, right?

Yes.

And now what's your focus with your couples work?

So I spend quite a bit of time on communication, on triggers. And really, I think my. My secret sauce, or my secret power, if you will, is to just create a safe environment for people to have conversation and trust is what the dominant force is there. Right. If I can create a space where people can trust that they're going to be safe, that they can share whatever they want to share without judgment, then I've done my job. So that's really what Jamie and I spend our time with.

Jamie obviously speaks about the why and the communication between couples and how important that is. But a lot of what we do is also experience share, because knowing what our whys are has been a huge transformation in our relationship. I'll give you a little example. So back in the day, before we knew what we know now, Jamie would get a little annoyed with me, to put it gently.

And he thought that I would be dwelling on things. Well, I have dwell in possibilities on my wall. So that. That is a favorite quote for me. But he had a hard time recognizing why. It took me a while to get over things, you know, a misspoken word with someone, not necessarily just with him, but with someone or someone who didn't do what they said they were going to do, or me staying up till two in the morning because I had told someone I was going to do something for them. He just couldn't understand why I was taking as much time or not getting over it as quickly as he was. And then when we did, when we went through our why discovery and recognized that creating relationships based on trust is what is my driving force, then he understood. And since then, he's never once asked me, like, why are you still dwelling on this? Why are you working till 2 in the morning? He knows that it's coming from a place that I just have to do it.

Well, I can imagine that you have taught him that as well, creating safe space. Because he does that as well. At least, you know, maybe not with in his marriage, because sometimes that can be harder. But for other people that know James, he's very much. That's what people say about him.

Exactly. And he does it. He does it very naturally. And he does it because his why is to contribute. So he does it from that point of view. He's creating a safe space because he's contributing to the greater good so people can have conversations with each other. Our end goal ends up being the same. Yeah.

And so you work in larger groups, or is it like five couples, or what size groups do you work with and then kind of what do you do with them?

So.

And what do you call the.

Workshops that you and Jamie do?

So the couple sizes differs anywhere from 10 couples to larger. We've done it for about eight couples, probably as the smallest group that we've done it. We're not Couples counselors. So it's not a one to one thing with couples. What we do is really just give them the tools so that they can have. They can communicate and talk about things that maybe they don't naturally talk about. It's really facilitating conversations and asking questions from a curiosity standpoint so that they can feel comfortable to be able to answer that with each other. Obviously, Jamie does the discovering their whys with them, creating a space so they can have a conversation around that. We utilize some of the tools. I talk about triggers and how couples get triggered and how getting triggered is not a bad thing. It's how we behave after we're triggered that's the bad thing. So a trigger could actually be a positive thing. It's part of some learning that I've had with Marshall Goldsmith about triggers and just variety of other things. About listening. We talk a lot about listening and just we laugh about it too, because we're experience sharing. So I'm not sharing anything with anyone that I haven't gone through myself.

And there's a lot of humor in that, I bet.

So let's talk about triggers for a minute because that's an interesting thing for me.

Because I was a dentist for so long and people would get triggered by the dentist. They'd walk into the dental office and they would get triggered by a smell or by a look or by whatever. And how do people overcome? Do you overcome a trigger or do you just roll with it or how do you handle. What's your advice for people that are dealing with triggers? Because I guess we all are.

Yeah, we all get triggered all the time. I think the first thing would be, and this is what I learned from Marshall Goldsmith's teachings is a trigger is a trigger. It's just a stimulus. How we behave towards it is that's on us. If we decide and if we choose to change our behavior, then what are the steps that we can take? An example in that is my mom. She passed away from lung cancer and she smoked till the very end. I think just the last week when she was in the hospital was the only time she didn't smoke. I would get triggered every time. I would walk into her house and I would smell the cigarette smoke, I would get triggered.

In the beginning. I would get into an argument with her, why are you smoking? It's not good for you. Don't you know you're sick? Of course she knows she's sick, right? And then I realized one day that, you know, her time is limited. And if every interaction with her is going to be a negative interaction. That's the last thing I want. So I was still triggered by the cigarette smoke. But what I learned to do was to change my behavior. So I would walk into the house, I would smell the cigarette smoke. I would wait a few minutes, maybe five minutes outside the door before I went into her bedroom, wait until she was done with the cigarette, and then walk in. She wasn't going to change her smoking, and the trigger was going to be the trigger. But the only thing I could control was my behavior. That's the only thing all of us can have any say so in is how we react to things, not the external stimulus. The external stimulus is going to be there. And funnily enough, well, not funny, but my brother is also a smoker. He and her would sit around together and have the best time, best conversations because they were just having a smoke together. So that same stimulus, as negative as it was for me, it was not a negative stimulus for him. Anything else. It was positive because they would sit around and have a chat and a cup of tea and a cigarette together. So. Right.

Yeah. Well, you know what's, what's interesting about what you said there is my perception of a trigger is probably inaccurate. But what I've heard when people say, well, I'm triggered, I'm triggered. So that gives me freedom, free reign to blow up or react any way I want to react because I've been triggered, it's like my, you know, free pass to do whatever the heck I want to do because I've been triggered. And the way you said it was different.

Your trigger is what causes. It's just a stimulus that causes a reaction. But you can choose what that reaction is.

Exactly. Exactly. Like driving is a trigger for me. If, if I'm hot, I've paid attention to this. The environment clearly makes a difference.

If I'm hot, if I'm late.

And if then traffic puts me in a bad mood, I'm triggered negatively. But if I'm not late and if the AC is on and I'm not hot, so temperature and, you know, punctuality are triggers for me. Maybe because of the trust thing. Maybe if I'm late. Right. I didn't. I didn't. And it wasn't the right way either. So I didn't do what I said I was going to do. I think that's probably where it shows up for me. But if I'm not late, I have all the time in the world. You could put me in traffic and I'm not Triggered at all. I'm listening to music, I'm listening to an audiobook. All is good, actually. I'm enjoying the extra time that I have, but the traffic is the stimulus.

So last question for you, Kati. What's the best piece of advice that you've ever been given? Or what's the best piece of advice that you've ever given to somebody?

Trust yourself. Because it took me many, many years to get there and realize that all the tools, very similar to triggers, all the tools are within me. I just had to trust myself to be able to rely on those tools.

I've sharpened those tools over the years.

That's awesome. So, Kati, if somebody's listening to this and they say, I would love to connect with you and I would love to see about maybe having you come work with our group or connect with you about Artisan, what would be the best way for them to connect with you?

I'm on LinkedIn, so LinkedIn. Kati, you'll. You'll find me Katidaraghi. Also, the butterfly years. Butterflyears.com can direct connect with me directly. Katyduraghi.com all my facilitation work is on there. So you can connect with me there or Kati D at Artisan Creative.

So you better spell Kati and Duragi.

Yes. It's K a t t y anD-O-U r a g h y dot com. Butterfly Years is easier.

Yeah, Butterfly Years we got. Thank you so much for being on today. I mean, I was looking forward to this since I saw you.

I know.

You know, for the listeners. Kati's in LA right now, but she's just about to move. Well, as soon as the house gets built to Albuquerque. So we're going to be neighbors soon. Yes, I'm looking forward to that.

Yeah, me too, Gary. Very much so.

So thank you so much for being on today.

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Okay, take care.

Bye. Bye.

I really hope you enjoyed today's episode and that through today's guest, you heard how important it is to know your why and how impactful it can be in your life and the lives of those around you. You be sure to head over to whyinstitute. Com and discover your why today. Remember, the more you know about yourself, the more you'll know about others. I'm Dr. Gary Sanchez and I'll see you on the next episode.