92: The Silent Virus That’s Putting Women at Risk with Dr. Doni Wilson

Hi there, it's Dr. Jen. Welcome back. We have a very important conversation to have today. So I am so delighted to have my friend and colleague, Dr. Donni Wilson here today, because we're going to talk about something that is definitely not talked about enough. But most, if not all of us women are thinking about it at one time or another because we are screened for it without really thinking about it. And there is definitely controversy around screening, there's controversy around prevention, there's controversy around treatment. And we're going to get into all of it today. So first, welcome, Dr. Wilson. Thank you so much for being here.

I'm so excited to be here with you. Thank you.

So there is a silent epidemic going around, right. And this is hpv. So I would love for you to start to talk about what is HPV and what is this silent epidemic.

I'm so glad you're saying it that way, because it is silent. It's silent also because women tend not to talk about it with each other because we feel embarrassed or ashamed.

Yeah, it brings up a lot of feelings of shame for people.

It does. Why? We go to the gynecologist and they do the Pap smear, and now they're. They're automatically doing an HPV test. And so, and this is in more recent years, so even if you had been getting a Pap for decades before and never had any mention of hpv, all of a sudden your doctor might be testing it for you along with your Pap. And then you might then hear from the gynecology office saying, oh, the HPV is positive. And then you're like, right. And your head just starts spinning. What. What does that mean? How did that happen? What? All the things, all the questions. And so it can be very scary at first because what we're referring to is specifically high risk hpv, and it's called high risk HPV because it's been associated with cancer risk. And so I'm so glad you're putting the emphasis on this is a serious issue. A virus that can be causing cancer, it doesn't always cause cancer, but we know that 99% of cervical cancer is caused by high risk HPV virus.

Whoa. Those are really big numbers.

Yeah. So it's like, in some ways, it's like if you know you're testing positive for high risk hpv, then we really start wanting to protect your cervix. Here's the thing is the high risk HPV virus types are also associated with cancer risk in vaginal tissue, in the vulva, as well, and can also be associated with cancer in the oral area, like in the sinuses, in the oral mouth, respiratory area. So it's not just the cervix. There can be HPV related cancer in other areas of the body, also the anal area. And it can also cause cancer. Cancer for men. So this is not just men dealing with high risk HPV virus, not just women. Also, men can develop cancer caused by high risk hpv. The difference is that men are not screened for it, at least at this point in time. In the United States, women are being screened for high risk HPV and men are not being screened. And so men don't even know they have it. And yet we come in contact with it from sexual contact. Genital contact is how it's spread. It's not spread by hugging someone, kissing someone, holding hands with someone. That's not how it's spread. It's spread through genital contact.

So there's no oral transmission.

It can be oral, but it would be oral genital, like oral sex is how that would happen. And I also like to clarify that we talk about HPV as if it's a single virus. And really there's 150 different kinds of HPV virus types. Some of the HPV viruses are low risk, meaning they're not associated with cancer risk. And they tend to be more associated with warts. Like even if you have warts on your hands or genital warts, those are the low risk types of HPV not associated with cancer. So yes, we do want to help with getting rid of the warts and preventing that. But I especially am focused on helping with the high risk types of HPV of which there are, as far as we know at this point in time, there are 13 types of HPV that are associated with cancer risk. The two that have the highest association with cervical cancer are called, are referred to as 16 and 18. So a lot of times you'll hear, you might hear, oh, do you have type 16 or 18? Because there's a two of the 13. Those are the sort of top two that cause cervical cancer. But there the other 11 could also. So when you get your results back, it might, and it varies based on the lab. Oh my gosh. So every time someone gets a result back, every lab looks a little different, but some of them will say HPV type 16 or 18 or it'll say other. And when it says other, it's referring to those other 11 and whether you're testing positive for them. And actually what I think is really interesting about screening for cervical cancer risk. That's changing now in the gynecology world is that it's starting to be where we're going to see doctors doing an HPV test even before doing a Pap smear. Right. Like, the standards always start with a Pap smear, but that's going to start shifting.

So is that shifting because it would preclude needing to do a Pap smear?

Yes.

That's really interesting. We have something similar in the. In the breast cancer screening arena now. There's a new test. It's called the ARIA test. I don't know if you've heard of this. The tears test.

Yes, we told you.

And what's happening is that this. This. Actually, I think I talked about it on your podcast.

Maybe. Yes. Right. I love it.

So what's happening with this test is that we're screening the fluid in the eye because for whatever the reason, these proteins end up being abundant in the eye fluid. So we're screening the fluid in the eye for these two proteins, the S100A8 and S100A9 proteins. And these proteins are inflammatory precursors to breast cancer. So 97% of the time, if you have breast cancer, you will have an increase amount of these proteins, and then the specificity isn't as high. The specificity is around 58%, which means that 42% of the time, you don't have a diagnosis of breast cancer. But this test is going to be positive. But there really are no true false positives, because if you test positive on this test, if you have a clinically significant result, then it means that you have those inflammatory precursors. So even if you don't have a cancer yet, you're on the. The possibility is there. You're on the trajectory to getting one. The exciting part for me about this technology is that we have the ability to turn it around. We can prevent a diagnosis. So by doing this test first, we can even determine who does and who doesn't need imaging. Because if you don't have any. If you don't have a clinically significant finding, you don't even really need a breast imaging. Are you telling that if you screen for HPV and it's negative, you don't need a Pap?

Yeah, that's what it's starting to become. And so I've even heard women now telling me that that's what happened when they went to the doctor's office. And you can get HPV tests for home testing. So just like the Oreo test is A, you could do it at home to test the HPV test. There are some that are now being developed that you, that are available that you can do at home. So women can be actually screening for cervical cancer risk at home with an HPV test. And then if it's positive, go, you know, go in and do the further imaging with a Pap smear or colposcopy. And so this is really starting to shift. And I love that it's helping women to be more empowered. Right. Because it can be scary. Like we, we would all probably avoid going in for a Pap smear if we could, because it's like, who wants to do that? But it's, it's so important because. And this is what I do in my work as a naturopathic doctor and a midwife and women's health expert is I help women to identify when HPV is positive, identify if there are starting to be cells that are starting to look like cancer cells. Because that's the difference with this is with the cervix is we can hopefully catch it before it turns into cancer. Like you're saying with the Orient test. If you can catch it before it turns into cancer, there's so much we can do to turn it around.

Yeah.

And you're not going to hear about this in the standard doctor's office. You just end up in a state of fear.

Yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong. Cervical cancer, I believe, is one of those cancers that is both linear and predictable. That there is kind of a spectrum of change that happens, that first you get some atypia and then maybe you get some microinvasion and then it's frank invasion and then it's metastasis from there. That is very unlike the breast cancer world. So everyone knows, like there are de novo, starting from the beginning, cancers of the breast that are invasive. They don't start in, in non invasive, microinvasive, then become invasive. They are de novo invasive. There are some breast cancers that are de novo metastatic that before you ever found anything clinical in the breast, they already have metastatic disease. So breast cancer is very unpredictable. But cervical cancer is predictable. And this is something that you can really make an impact if you're screening.

Absolutely. And that's why I would say if you haven't had a Pap or HPV test in a few years, that it's important to go and find out, because I would rather find out so we can start taking action instead of being in a state of fear and hoping it's not. And then finding out later when we could have figured it out earlier and been proactive. The thing is, is that you're not likely to hear about this. You know, the standard doctor's office is likely to say, okay, it's positive, but maybe there's no abnormal cells or mildly abnormal cells. And they'll say, come back in six months or a year. And so women are in a situation of going, well, what am I doing? I'm waiting to see if it turns into cancer.

Yes, you're waiting to develop cancer so that they can treat you.

That.

I mean, that is, unfortunately, that's how our system works. Right. You have some glucose tolerance issues. Okay, well, come back in six months when you're diabetic. Right. You have borderline hypertension. Okay, Come back in six months when you're frankly hypertensive. This is our medical system right now. That's what it is. Wait for the disease to develop, wait to fail, wait to be an abject failure. And then we will give you something to suppress the symptoms, not ever to restore health or wellness, because they don't know how to do that. But that's what our system is. And it's glaringly obvious here.

It really is. And so unfortunately, women are in that wait and worry and then find out that it gets worse. Then they need to do a procedure to remove like, say it becomes more severely abnormal cells, CIN2 or 3, they need to be removed. That can cause scar tissue or damage to the cervix and it doesn't kill the virus. So they do a procedure and then you have to go back every six months or so, recheck and see if it happened again. And there are some women who've been in this repeat procedures and treatment for decades of their lives. And by the way, a lot of times women think, oh, this is just something that like let's say 20 or 30 year olds deal with. But no, the average age of cervical cancer is 50. That means that women are finding out that they have abnormal cells or HPV and abnormal cells even in their 40s or 50s. And I'm seeing women in their 60s and 70s that are dealing with HPV and cervical cancer risk. So even if you had a hysterectomy, even if you've had normal pap smears in the past, even if you're after menopause, it's still important to be screening for this because again, if we catch it, the earlier we catch it, the more chance we have to prevent it from becoming cancer.

Yeah. So that begs the question is cervical cancer preventable?

I believe it is. I really believe, because in my practice, and keep in mind, I mean, I've been helping women for 25 years with this. And so I've seen thousands of cases, women in the United States and around the world who come in to have me help them. And I've seen cases of women who've been dealing with this virus sometimes for more than a decade, women who've had severely abnormal cells, all different scenarios. And I've been able to see their cerVix heal. The HPV can actually go to negative. I think this is a really common misconception. People are told even by their practitioners that you can never get it to go away. And it's not correct. Yeah, it's based on what we used to know. Right. Like decades ago, we couldn't measure a viral titer. We didn't understand how the immune system works. And we didn't understand that we have th one immunity that can clear a virus and the viral titers go to negative. And then we have a part of our immune system that's our memory cells that can remember how to protect us from an infection. And so now we know clearly that the human immune system can clear the HPV virus to negative and it can prevent it from coming back again, even if someone's re exposed. Because a lot of women say, well, what if I'm married and my partner has HPV and I'm getting re exposed? And what the research finds and what I see in clinical practice is when we really figure out how to help your body protect you from this virus, even if that virus shows up again, your body's going to be able to protect you from it. Your immune system and your microbiome can protect you from hpv. We just need to restore healthy function.

So that, that does address my question because I there are lots of viruses that remain in your body that remain dormant that you don't really clear. But you're saying HPV isn't one of them, that you can clear hpv?

Yeah, I think some people, it can stay kind of at a low grade level. But what I see in my patients, where we. And I can describe a little more what's different about my protocol and approach. But when we really, to me it's when we're comprehensive and we really get that person's body to protect them, then it's not, it can go away and stay away and it's not staying dormant completely goes away.

So let's talk about the role of the Immune system in HPV and how we get our immune system to help us to eliminate the virus.

I love this question, and this is what I do a lot of teaching around in my. In the videos and classes that I teach, is to understand that there's actually several factors that can deplete our immune system's ability to protect us from all infections, including HPV virus. I specifically go into eight what I call susceptibility factors. The first one on the list is stress of all types. Right? We know we're exposed to. We all have stress on a daily basis. Stress from work, financial stress, relationship stress, even health. And being diagnosed with HPV is a known stress. When we're exposed to stress, as well as any exposure to when it becomes a trauma as well, or trauma from our past. This, what it does is it impacts our immune function. It's known that it decreases our ability to protect us from infections like viral infections. And as you likely talk about, it shifts the immune system in the direction toward cancer and autoimmunity. So it's literally, we know the more we're impacted by stress, the more our immune system is not as good at protecting us from infections, and it sends us in this other direction. And the key factor is to understand that we can take steps to recover from stress. I think so much of the time, especially for women, we're so, so caught up in taking care of everyone else, and we're. Every day is just a hamster wheel, right? And we're just trying to keep up. And we, we don't have time to take care of ourselves even just to get enough sleep to be able to exercise, to be let alone to be able to take a few breaths and, and meditate or get outside. Right? We, it. It's a challenge to figure out how to get that into our day, but it can make such a difference because that's where the stress recovery can start to happen, and then your immune system can start to work better again.

So stress is definitely something that plays into it. What are some of the other things that play into it? Do hormones play into it?

They do. There's. And sometimes it's. People think automatically of higher estrogen, right? We hear about estrogen dominance, and certainly there's a time in women's life when they're more likely to have higher estrogen than progesterone, Say during menstruating years, you know, 20s, 30s, even into your 40s, you might tend to have higher estrogen than progesterone. And that can play a role. It's also to do with how well your liver is detoxifying the estrogen. So if the liver is. And this is based on genetics, right. And toxin exposure, if the liver is not detoxifying estrogen as optimally as possible, that can also play a role. So we do a lot of work with helping to optimize estrogen detoxification. And then the other side of the coin, Jen, is when women go through perimenopause and menopause and now estrogen drops. What happens is when estrogen decreases, it actually changes the vaginal microbiome. So the microbiome is the healthy bacteria. We usually hear about the microbiome in the gut, but there's also a microbiome in the vagina. And when estrogen drops, so does the vaginal microbiome. And think of your vaginal microbiome as like your bodyguards. You know, they're going to help defend you from HPV and any other infection that you might get exposed to. And when that microbiome drops, then the HPV can just walk right in and start causing trouble, which is what it likes to do. So we have to really also pay attention to when women experience low estrogen, especially low vaginal estrogen. And so one of the key approaches is to look at is this woman in need of some vaginal estrogen? Of course, we have to look at their history and if that's a, you know, a safe thing for them to choose. But the research has been. I'm sure you talk about this as well. The research is becoming more and more clear that vaginal estrogen use, like estriol use in particular, can be very safe and protective for. For a lot of women. For HPV and more.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I am a universal believer in at least the opportunity to go on bioidentical hormone replacement, and that includes the breast cancer population, because they're people, too, and they don't deserve to suffer. And I think the question as to whether or not vaginal estrogen is safe has been asked and answered. Right. And it's not just for people who didn't have breast cancer. We know that it is equally as safe in people who had breast cancer. And, you know, there are a number of us out there that believe that breast cancer is probably more of an issue of estrogen deficiency than it is of estrogen excess.

Wow.

And, you know, when you think about it that way, it makes so much sense. First of all, it explains why we don't see breast cancer in times of estrogen excess. We see breast Cancer mostly in times of estrogen deficiency. And even in these young turbo cancers where we're seeing these young, young people with these cancers that we, like, really never saw before. We're seeing them in women who have, you know, gotten a certain stab in their arm in 2021. I won't say more than that, that it was followed by a lot of menstrual dysfunction. And we know that menstrual dysfunction is centered around hormone deficiency. It's not around hormone excess, it's around hormone deficiency. So we know that vaginal estrogen is safe for everyone and makes a huge difference, because when you lose that vaginal estrogen, you lose the health of the vaginal tissues and you become susceptible to all kinds of things. Viruses, yes, for sure, but also urinary tract infections, frequent and really prolonged yeast infections. That's a huge issue when you lose the vaginal estrogen. And it's all because you are changing that vaginal microbiome, without question. And you're also materially changing the health of the tissues. You literally have tissue loss, barrier loss, loss of function. And so I think it's really important that we shout this from the rooftops because we need to maintain the health of our vaginal tissue. It's important for everything.

It really is. And it's makes such a difference with cervical cancer risk as well and vaginal cancer. So when I'm talking to a woman who is Perry and postmenopausal, that's my first thought, is we need to make sure that you have enough vaginal estrogen. And what I find is that most women are not yet using vaginal estrogen. They're not hearing about it, their doctors are not telling them about it. And so I'm absolutely so glad we're talking about it here. To say this is not only going to help protect you from cervical and vaginal cancer and vulvar cancer, but also in what you're saying is because women worry, is it going to increase risk of breast cancer? And you're saying no, it can actually potentially even help with breast cancer risk as well. Yeah.

And, you know, that's what the literature has shown that especially in women who were taking estrogen alone, because most of the time when they were taking combinations, they were taking a synthetic progesterone, which seems to. Which seems to change the landscape a little bit. But estrogen alone, without question, is protective. And we see a reduction in breast cancers in women who take estrogen alone. So I am actively changing that paradigm every day. And I am intent on Advocating for bioidentical hormone replacement and making sure that estrogen gets the attention that it's due and the positive attention that it's due because it's had plenty of negative attention for the purposes of selling anti estrogen drugs. Right. It fits a narrative and the narrative seems logical, it's believable, uh, it just doesn't happen to be true. But the pharmaceutical companies want you to believe that it's true so that you buy their drugs.

And I'm telling you, and it's like, makes such a big difference. So if anyone listening is, I mean, especially if you're having vaginal discomfort and pain and. Absolutely. If you're testing positive for HPV or like you mentioned, like so many women have chronic BV and yeast. It's the same situation if the, when the estrogen's low and the microbiome drops and the it drop, it shifts the immune system too. And then what's happening is inflammation increases in the vagina. And research really shows when you have that combination of factors, it, it makes it so much easier for high risk HPV to just show up and start causing abnormal cells. And so it's like to me it's, it's such an important thing to learn about and address. And you can get vaginal estrogen. Yes. From your, your gynecologist, you can ask there. But when we're talking about bioidentical estrogen, we're even talking about. Right. Like a compounded, potentially estradiol or I often prefer estriol. And there's ways that you can get even a low dose of estriol, like 1-3mg twice a week of estriol can be enough. It's not like you're having to use a lot and you're not having to use it every day. Right. So to get this kind of a difference.

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Yeah, yeah, that's a big piece of it. This, the other thing that's so amazing, I think in the research are really like so, so interesting is that literally the HPV virus itself, when it shows up vaginally, it actually changes the ecosystem. It actually starts to even make the microbiome drop more and the inflammation increase more. So it completely like hijacks the vaginal ecosystem to benefit itself. And so you start to go, I really start to look at it as, wow, this virus, HPV virus, high risk HPV virus, it has an agenda. It's like, I'M going to just try to barge in, get into these cells and start causing cancer. And. And when you can start to understand the virus that way, what I find is women can then get really empowered around it and say, wait a minute, this is my vagina. This is my life, my health. I'm not going to let this virus barge in and cause cancer. I'm going to take back control and get my vaginal environment set. We also, we look at things, everything from diet and, you know, nutrition. There's nutrient deficiencies that can increase risk. The gut microbiome influences the vaginal microbiome. So we need to do some gut healing. There's. So there's other factors as well. I look at it as, this is our chance to look at your full health history, including, by the way, because I know this relates to breast cancer risk too. Is blood sugar levels. You wouldn't think, what does my blood sugar levels have to do with HPV and cervical cancer risk? But the research absolutely shows a connection. And we see this with breast cancer risk too. Right. As soon as your blood sugar starts to fluctuate, the cancer risk goes up. Yeah, yeah.

Well, it has to do with your metabolic health. And, you know, lest we forget insulin, which is what we use to regulate our blood sugar levels because our bodies are very sensitive to an increase in glucose, in circulating glucose, and it's quite damaging. So our body works really hard to make sure that that doesn't happen. And the way that we combat it is we secrete more insulin to push the glucose into the cells. And the thing is, insulin is growth factor, and it's growth factor everywhere. So it will increase circulating insulin, will increase your risk of cancers all, all throughout your body. And that's what's happening. It's why I honestly wish if we would screen for metabolic disease and metabolic dysfunction with the same vigor that we do breast cancer and cervical cancer and colon cancer, we would be far better off. We would prevent many of these disease states. But that's not what the system wants. The system is not about prevention at all. It's not even about early detection. I would argue it's just about detection.

It's true. And so. And even if you wanted to start tracking your blood sugar, insurance won't cover until you. Until it's high enough that then they will cover you to do a continuous.

No, no, you have to fail first. You have to get diabetes first, and then it'll cover. Which, you know, that's a mindset and a mentality that I think we all need to reset because we have adopted this, the, that I'm just going to get sick so that insurance can pay for it kind of thing, right? And we've lost what we've really lost, what insurance is and what insurance is for and what insurance means. And we've kind of created this system where, as far as I'm concerned, I think that insurance is for disasters, for emergencies, for, for things that, you know, like unforeseeable circumstances. But I don't think that going for your checkup should be something that's paid for by insurance. I don't think that things that are like, routine, I don't think that that's something that should be paid for by insurance. And at the same time, I think we should pay a whole heck of a lot less for insurance, pay for our routine healthcare, pay for our health maintenance. And then when you need insurance because you fell and God forbid, broke your ankle or you have a ruptured appendix or a heart attack or, you know, God forbid, some medical catastrophe, that's what insurance is for. And we would all be a lot better off and we would guard our health because if you knew you had to pay for it, you take care of it. But we don't take care of it because we don't value it, because the.

System doesn't value really is a mindset shift. Jen, I think you're right. Like, I really talk about this too, because we can be in. This mindset of HPV is never going to go away. I just have to keep going for another exam or procedure and until it leads to cancer. And even then, I've talked to women who have five or ten thousand dollars worth of medical bills simply from procedures related to HPV that their insurance didn't even cover. So we have to start to go, what is the cost here? This is costing us our not only financial cost of all of these procedures, but also the cost of the fear, the anxiety that it's, it's. Sometimes women feel afraid to be in, you know, get a, have a partner to date. They feel afraid to have sex. They feel afraid to tell anyone. And, and right now, in the United States alone, there are, the estimate is 6,000 women per year dying of cervical cancer. And a lot of those women have never even told anyone in their life that they were dealing with cervical cancer because they were, they felt ashamed and, and isolated in that process. And so this is going back to this silent epidemic of something women are dealing with and, and not ever being told, hey, there's an, there's an yes, you're going to have to invest out of pocket. But there's, but it's in things that are going to change your whole health. Like if we help to change your diet. Right. If we help to decrease sugar and alcohol, optimize your blood sugar levels, optimize your nutrient levels, make sure you're getting enough sleep and exercise and start getting in the nutrients to help re establish healthy immune function and microbiome and hormones and so on. Yes, that's going to be an investment outside of your insurance, most likely, but it's an investment that's going to prevent not only cervical cancer, but breast cancer and dementia, diabetes. Right. And then you have this ability to live your life and your passion without, without that fear of, of health issues right there constantly. So it is, it's a mindset shift to say, what path do you really want to be on?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So let's talk about prevention because we did say before that this is a preventable disease. So, so how do we prevent this from happening?

Well, we, first of all, we, we do the testing to find out if it's there, you know, so that already is a courageous step, I would say, to say, okay, even if I'm, you know, over 50, even if I'm have had the same. Because a lot of times people think that this is only something that happens to people who've had more than one sexual partner. But I'm here to tell you that I see many women from around the world who have been married for 30 years and they are testing positive for HPV. So just know that it's, it's, there's no shame here. In fact, 80% of us are exposed to HPV by age 50. So it's not a rare thing for only people with multiple relationships over their lifetime. This is something that 80% of us are exposed to. And so we, I'm just so glad to break open these barriers of communication and say, hey, there's no shame. We're humans. We're going to have sex, we're going to get exposed to hpv. Let's find out if, if the HPV is positive. What that means to me is that your system is, is susceptible in, in at least one way, potentially up to eight susceptibility factors. So then I just become a detective is the way I look at it. And I just start being a detective to say, what is making you susceptible? We start looking at blood work. Is the blood sugar imbalanced? Is there nutrient deficiencies like even vitamin D, iron B, vitamins? Are super important. In fact, another factor that I. I work with is MTHFR and methylation issues. And maybe some of your listeners are familiar with mthfr, which is a. It's a gene variation that has to do with folate metabolism. And what can happen is if 40 to 50% of us have a gene variation on MTHFR and yet many supplements and B complexes contain folic acid, and someone with a MTHFR gene variation is going to be less able to use that folic acid. And so now their body is not getting the benefit of folate. And folate is so important for making healthy new cells, which is what we need your cervix to do. We need your cervix to be constantly making new cells. Sometimes I think we think the cervix is, like, just there and it stays there. But I like to remind women that just like we grow new skin all the time, we also grow new cells on our cervix all the time. Right. So we constantly need access to folate and these other nutrients in order to grow new, healthy cells.

Yeah.

And so we need to be like, especially if, you know, you have an MTHFR gene variation, but even if you don't know, we need to be looking at these factors to say, let's make sure you have the new adequate nutrients to protect yourself.

Yeah. I want to talk about the vaccine a little bit. I want to share a story. I have two boys, and when we went to the pediatrician, even though my boys are huge and they probably scare everyone at the pediatrician's office, but when we went to the pediatrician and my older one was 16 and my younger one was 13, my pediatrician said, okay, it's time for the HPV vaccine. And I said, no. And that bitch turned around to my children and said, well, when you're 18, you come back. Yeah.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Huh? That's allowed. It shouldn't be allowed.

I know. I know. We had words. I asked my boys to leave the room, and we had words. What do you think of that HPV vaccine? Do you think that that's prevention? Do you think everyone should be getting it? Do you think no one should be getting it? Tell me what you think about it.

Well, and you know, we have to say that it's. Everyone needs to make their own choice. And I just always recommend that you do your research and with anything you're putting in or on your body, always look at what are the potential benefits and what are the potential risks. And so that's what I hear you asking me is, are there potential benefits and are there potential risks? And one thing I like to point out about the HPV vaccine is, at least at this point in time, called the Garnasil 9. That means it's covering nine HPV types, two of which are the low risk types. So it's actually covering seven of the high seven of the 13 high risk types. So it's not covering all 13. So it's, I feel like always important to know it's going to partially cover some of the high risk types and it's not 100% effective. I think sometimes people assume if I get a vaccine, I'm covered.

Yeah, they do. And that's. And they mostly assume that because that's how it's prevent presented to them.

It is.

I don't think that that's them interpreting it.

It's true. The doctors kind of make it sound like, oh, this is, you're done, you're good.

Yeah.

They have to tell you that you still have to be tested for hpv. Why do you have to still get PAP smears and HPV tests is because it's not 100% effective. You still have to do continued screening for cervical cancer even if you had the vaccine. And now they've extended it so that women could get it to age 45. Why is that? Right. And you start to go, what's really happening here? What about the women? Yeah, exactly. Now we're extending the length of time that we can use it. And yet I can tell you that I talk to women every day who contact me and say to me in tears, I had the vaccine and I still have HPV and abnormal cells. And so I know it's not 100% effective. And yet what I'm telling you is there are things we can do that I'm seeing work time and time again when I guide women through. And men, by the way, I also see men in my practice to be able to change their diet and help heal their microbiome and get their nutrients on track and their hormones on track and their bodies then can protect them from a high risk HPV virus. It does. Then beg the question, okay, if I can take steps to protect myself, you know, basically closer to 100% versus a vaccine that's not 100%. And we know, and you can definitely find this, researching this. There are risks to the garden cell, the HPV vaccine. There are people who are having negative outcomes from being exposed to that vaccine, and there's even lawsuits against that vaccine. Because of, of the negative effects. So it's definitely worth looking into all of that before you decide to have this injection.

Yeah. And of course, everyone needs to make their own decision and everyone needs to consider it for themselves. But it's important to know that it's not a guarantee. It does not cover all the strains. Not everyone. Remember that with, with every vaccine, your immune system has to be able to respond to it. So you can give a vaccine to someone who can't mount an immune response and it's not going to do them any good.

No.

And so, you know, I, I think that this, and it's very clear as they continue to expand the indications to use that, that it's, it's just another money grab. Right. Like, let's find more people to give it to. And, you know, we've seen that a couple of times in these last few years and even find more people to give it to.

Even though the vaccine's available around the world, there's over 600,000 women diagnosed with cervical cancer every year. So even though the vaccine exists, so it's not like it's eliminated it. Right. So that's why I think, like, even if you get the vaccine, it's important to still test and to still know that there's so much we can do to protect you because it's not like it's solving the problem.

Yeah. So I'm excited to hear that Paps are not going to be the, the first step that it. There's going to be a first step of testing for the virus. But even before that, I, I do want to know because I have heard from a number of people lately and there's been some chatter about this on, on inst. And things like that, where everyone gets their medical information from. What do you think of Paps? Are they damaging? Do they increase your risk? What, what do you think of the Pap smear?

Yeah, a lot of women are asking this question and I haven't seen any research. I really think we need to be. Of course, the, the companies that are making Pap smear equipment, they're not necessarily going to be studying this risk factor. Right. Of like, is there a risk to doing a Pap? I would say it's an unknown, but I definitely do have women report to me questioning, hey, just, I mean, just going into the doctor's office and feeling stressed, let alone a Pap, let alone a colposcopy or having to have multiple colposcopies. The trauma, the medical trauma that can happen that we know can increase Risk. But in terms of the procedure, I haven't seen anything that specifically states risk. But it is a question.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, this was an amazing conversation, such an important conversation and I know that my listeners are going to get so much out of it. For anyone who is struggling in this space, how do you help them? How do they get in touch with you? What do they do? Where do they start?

Well, my website at doctordonni.com, which Donnie iS-O-N-I so-o C-T-O r--O-N-I.com you can also go. I created a whole resource page specifically for HPV that's@clearhpv now.com and on that page you're going to see all kinds of videos and, and I have also HPV recovery guide that I'm happy to send to your guests. And we also do a Secret to Clear HPV masterclass which is available there on the website. I can give you the, the link, you know, so you could share it.

So that we'll keep, we'll make sure that we put it in our notes, in the show notes.

So when you can, when you can. If you want to know more, come listen to the Secret to Clear HPV Masterclass, because I then go into 90 minutes of even more detail about steps you can start to take. I feel like it starts with understanding your test results. So what I do is I guide women to get out your pap or your biopsy results and your HPV results. And let's understand, what does it say, what does it mean? Because you're already now putting yourself back in the driver's seat instead of feeling like, I don't know, I'm just doing what the doctor tells me to do. You're now saying, I understand my results, I understand what it means, I understand what I need to do to solve it. And from there, in my office, what I've done is made it so you can get access to the right supplements at clinical doses that are going to be effective. A lot of times women are searching online and they might come across this or that, but it oftentimes is not effective clinical doses. And so I just worry because they're now kind of wasting time with a supplement that may or may not help them. So I'd rather you come learn and find out exactly which supplements to take, what doses. We can also get access to vaginal suppositories. So we can actually including for the, the microbiome, we can help re establish a healthy microbiome vaginally. So there's so much then I can guide you to do. I do work with patients one on one, so you'll see at the website where you could work with me one on one. And I do offer an online group program, so I. It's amazing how exciting it is to work in a space of 30 to 50 women at a time, working together to heal their cervix and get rid of HPV is so amazing, right? And here it is, women who've been feeling isolated and on their own, women from age 20 to into their 70s coming together to say, we've had enough of this weight and worry about cancer. We want to get on the path where we're healing our bodies and get on with our life. And it's so amazing to be part of that healing community of women. So if you're. If that's something you're looking for and you're wishing existed, it does exist, and we'd be happy to help you as well.

That is amazing. Thank you so much for the work that you do. It's really important and we need to shed the light on this and bring it out into the open and have people know that there are real, true solutions that you don't have to watch and wait, that you don't have to live in fear and that you can take control and get your health back.

Exactly, yeah. Thank you so much, Dr. Jen. I'm so grateful to be able to share this here.

So I am thrilled to have had you here today. And if this was meaningful to you, then make sure that you like it, that you share it. Leave us a comment and make sure that you share it with someone who needs to hear it. Because I'm certain that you know someone that needs to hear it. It's a very important conversation and one that we need to start having out loud to take the fear and the shame away from this, because as we said, 80% of people are exposed by the age of 50. So this is a very, very, very common issue. And we need to make sure that we are taking before it becomes a problem, because this is a preventable disease. So thank you so much, Dr. Donnie, for being here and know that I will be here next week, same time, same place. It's Dr. Chen. Bye for now.