Breast Cancer Beyond the Scars: A Journey of Strength & Self-Advocacy

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Welcome back to the keeping Abreast with Dr. Jen podcast. I am your host, Dr. Jen Simmons, and I am delighted to have Dr. Christy Hibbert here with me today. Dr. Hibbert has an amazing story of survival, of fortitude. You've had a tough, tough journey, but that journey has yielded some really amazing things. Just to briefly delve into some of those amazing things, you are a number one bestselling author of the award winning memoir this Is How We Grow and eight keys to Mental Health through Exercise and who I Am without. You. You are a clinical psychologist, a speaker, a social media influencer, a thought leader in the areas of maternal and women's mental health, grief, loss, trauma, self worth, personal growth, and breast cancer. You're the. You're the host of Like a Watered Garden podcast. I love that name and creator of your award winning website and blog, Dr. Christina Hibbert. So, Dr. Hibbert, welcome. I'm so happy to have you here with us today.

Thank you. I'm so glad to be with you today.

You know, you have some amazing, amazing accomplishments, but they haven't come without their price. And you know, as many of us, our pain becomes our purpose. And I think that that's no truer for you than anyone else. Right. So talk to us. Just give us some brief background about how you got into this space.

Yes, you are so right. And I know that so many listening probably have those moments where you feel like I have no purpose or what is my purpose. I'm just trying to survive. I'm just in survival mode. I feel like I've been that way for the past four and a half years since my breast cancer diagnosis. And all those things that you read there mostly happened before I was diagnosed with breast cancer, but even those things came from, you know, I lost my little sister when she was 8 to kidney cancer. That kind of led me into wanting to become a psychologist and specialize in grief and loss. I suffered from postpartum depression with all of my children. That led me into becoming an expert on maternal mental health and postpartum mental health. And my s. My other sister passed away from an overdose of Tylenol and alcohol, which was later ruled a suicide in 2007, just two months after her husband had died of melanoma. And we inherited their two kids when I was about to give birth to what would have been our fourth baby. So we went from three to six kids overnight. And that. I don't even know what that did, but I do know that that, that led to me actually Writing my first book and publishing my first book. And I have to say, at the time when that was happening, I. I quit working for a couple of years. I was home, just trying to heal myself and my family. And I thought, how am I ever going to do all these things that I had as a dream? How am I ever going to be a speaker? How am I ever going to be an author? But it ended up being that very story that became this is How We Grow, my first book that became a bestseller. So I feel like, even though it's been a long four and a half years, that I feel like I've been kind of on this breast cancer journey. And even though I'm not necessarily dealing with the cancer itself self right now, I'm dealing with all the aftermath of the treatment and all the complications that for me were many and I pretty constant. But I know that this, this experience too is already giving me purpose in the future, even as I struggle myself on a day to day basis to feel like, okay, what is my purpose? Because I'm not doing the things I used to do. So I relate to that. I know a lot of people out there probably can relate to that feeling.

So I think that people on a breast cancer journey would really appreciate hearing about yours. And I don't, I don't say that lightly because I know that you've had a very complicated journey. So I would be really honored if you would start to share some of that. With you?

Sure, absolutely. I, you know, it has been a crazy journey. As I say, if I would have written this as a, as a fiction novel, nobody would want to read it because they would say this isn't believable. But yeah, here we are. So I was diagnosed with stage one triple negative breast cancer in 2000 or in 19. No, 19. Oh my gosh, 2000. Okay. My brain. Right, okay. Brain. Brain problems in 2019. That's what I mean. And I immediately, a week later, ended up doing a double mastectomy because my mother had had breast cancer three times already by that point. And I thought I might have.

Did you do that? Did you do that because you believed that it gave you a better chance for cure?

Yes. With my mom's history, she had had two different types of breast cancer, both sides. And we had done genetic testing with her, but it came back, they said it was inconclusive. I didn't realize at the time it was a variant of uncertain significance. I didn't know what that meant. All I was told by my doctor was, well, we don't know, so you don't need to be tested. So none of my siblings or myself were tested. So when I bought.

So that's interesting though, that your mother had a variant of unknown significance. And then. So for the people that don't know what we're referring to now, when we do genetic testing, there are known mutations that we know are associated with an increased risk of breast cancer. And when we talk about genetic mutations, I want to be clear that mostly what we're looking at are genes that are protective against breast cancer. And some people are born with a mutation or a change in those genes, in those gene codes and it makes them more susceptible to developing breast cancer and other cancers because these are tumor suppressor genes. So it's not like you have the gene for cancer. It's you have diminished capability of your cancer suppressor genes.

Right. Thank you for explaining that because I certainly couldn't do it that well. And I think, I think you're right. Most people don't really know what it means. We know there's genetic testing. We know kind of maybe that you might be positive for something that might put you at greater risk. I certainly didn't know what that variant meant. And that's. I didn't get tested and my siblings didn't get tested. But the day when I was diagnosed, I met with my breast surgeon who's. She's an amazing, like trailblazing breast surgeon. And she just kind of sat me down and was like, I guarantee you have the same variant. And it was true. We did the testing, we did the genetic testing and within two weeks, and by then I'd already had my double mastectomy because as you said, it was just going to be kind of like, let's just one and done, like get this over with. We thought I might not have to do chemo. And it was triple negative. It was like on the border, like almost into stage two. So we just wanted to like nip it in the bud is kind of what. Yeah. At the time, I do, I do.

Want to mention that what you do in terms of surgery does not preclude what you're going to do systemically. So they have nothing to do with one another. When we look at the treatment of breast cancer, we separate them into local treatments which are surgery and radiation. They just treat the tissues of the breast and, and systemic treatments which are chemotherapy and anti hormonal therapy. So having a mastectomy and so many people have this in their head and I don't know if it's reinforced by the surgeons or not, but having a mastectomy would not preclude you from needing chemotherapy. It shouldn't change that decision making at all. Um, and a lot of people elect for mastectomy because they think that the chances of survival are better and it's not. The only thing that mastectomy changes is the likelihood that you're going to have a second cancer or a contralateral cancer, a cancer on the other side, which you had a legitimate concern about that. Right. Because your mother had bilateral breast cancer, she had both sided breast cancers and she had, she must have had a recurrence if she was diagnosed three times.

And she didn't do the mastectomy until the third time.

Yeah.

So I think that's a bit. For me, that was a big factor. That was kind of the factor and kind of one. And I didn't want to be dealing with recurrences like she was my whole life.

And how did, how did the best laid plans go?

Yeah, right. Well, just, just to finish up the genetic part, this is very interesting because two weeks later I got my test results back and I did have the same variant that my mother had had. And I wish, I wish now, because this is for anybody who's maybe doing genetic testing and gets a similar thing is I wish they would have sat down and explained to us what a variant meant. It just meant that something was not normal there. But they couldn't classify it yet. They couldn't tell you exactly what it was yet. The week I got my results back and I had the same variant, they actually reclassified that variant as part of the BRCA1 genetic mutation.

Yeah.

So then we knew what it was. But I wish I. Ahead of time, you know, as time.

Goes by and we see more and more of these variants, we're able to make an association. So when was your mother tested? How many years ago she was tested?

Probably maybe like eight or probably like 10 years ago. Yeah, again, maybe like seven or eight years ago.

So the interesting thing is that the number of people getting genetic testing has exploded and the number of women with breast cancer who are getting genetic testing has exploded. So we've really opened up who does and who doesn't get tested. And for that reason, we are able to now take these variants of unknown significance and know their significance. So, you know, as the data increases and we see more and more associations, we're able to actually draw that conclusion. And so what's interesting is it's probably not just your family like there, this, if it's now known to be a BRCA1 mutation there, that there are known people who have this mutation and breast cancer.

Right, exactly.

And you're a trendsetter.

It. Well, it certainly helped my family. It helped my family then to go get tested. My siblings, I also didn't realize until I was told that my brothers could carry the gene genetic mutation, that my sons could carry that and my siblings, all my living siblings now none of them have it. And my one sister, who's my youngest sister, thought she was at such a high risk that she was going to go get preventative surgery when she had had her kids. And she doesn't even have the genetic mutation. So I think the knowledge is powerful when we have it because it can help one way or the other, at least give us options for what we want to do to prevent it really.

Is powerful because now your sister has the knowledge that she does not have the genetic susceptibility that you had and that your mother had, which doesn't. It's not permission to not do all the things because there is still a risk in the general population, but your risk was well above that of the general population. And so it is very freeing to know that you don't have that same risk. Right. And so I really encourage all first degree relatives because anyone who has that mutation, you are going to pass it down to 50% of your offspring.

Yes. And so far we know that. Interestingly, one of my sons has it who was my nephew. So we know that his mother had it.

Had it.

Found that out after she, years after she had died. We now know. So it's, it's. And my daughters haven't been tested yet, but my two biological sons don't have it. But again, it can go through male or female and yeah, generations and it's a big responsibility and it's, it's a burden too. I think it adds to that like that sense of self worth, of like, oh, I feel guilty that I'm passing this on that I've had to work through. You know, a lot of this is.

It'S very, it's very difficult. It's very difficult.

Yes. But as you said, like, yeah, I thought that I would have two, three surgeries. I'd have my. I did, you know, I immediately did reconstruction with the double mastectomy I was going to do.

Did you do, did you do implants?

I did implants because honestly, like looking back, I never was really given options. It was just kind of like, this is how we do it. This is what I suggest and recommend and My doctor was really great surgeon, and I just thought, okay, let's. That's what we're doing. And I didn't. Hadn't ever even heard of breast implant illness until after I had had my double mastectomy and expanders put in. And then I ended up doing exchanged implants and I started getting infections. And at the same time, I did a hysterectomy, preventative, complete hysterectomy, so that I could still do some estrogen because I'm very hormone sensitive. And I was very concerned about menopause.

So does anyone in your family have ovarian cancer? Is there any history of that? I mean, you've had so many early deaths in your family, so it's hard. It's probably hard to know, but that's the other thing we worry about with BRCA mutations.

Right. My. My risk for that was pretty high. It was like 70 or something like that. And I just thought, I've already had my kids, I don't need it, so let's kind of get rid of it. You know, looking back, I don't know, like, I would have done some things differently, but at the time, you do what you can with what knowledge you have.

Yeah.

And to me, I was just like, I just want to get rid of all the risk. I really thought that I would have these surgeries, I would not do chemo, and three to six months later, I would get back to normal. You know, I was busy as an author and a speaker. I was writing my fourth book. I, you know, I. And bam. It all came crashing down into this day. Four and a half years later, I still haven't been back to work yet. So that just shows you. Shows you how many complications we ended up having. And started right from the start with just infections. After getting my implants, put in a staph infection in the hospital for a week and finally ended up losing the right implant, ended up needing to do chemotherapy. Just. Well, it was my choice. It was my choice. But, you know, as a mom of six kids who have lost their mom and dad and slash aunt and uncle, who were like a mom and dad, and I've also lost two very close friends who were like second mothers to my children, one to cancer and one to suicide, I just didn't feel like I had that choice. I felt like I had to do everything I could do to just survive and not have this come back again if possible. And so I opted to do the chemotherapy, which I did the taxotere and carboplatin, because they Were more worried about risk of just one little speck of the triple negative breast cancer getting out than really anything else. And I did cold capping. So if anybody doesn't know about that.

You know, I was going to say that beautiful head of hair. I know you didn't lose that.

I didn't lose that. I lost a bunch, like right at the front, maybe like 20%. And I have a lot of hair. So. So it's.

And that, that is about what they. What they quote is about a 20% hair loss for people that are doing the cold capping. And for anyone who doesn't know about cold capping. Can you just explain the experience?

Yeah, I am very passionate about it now because I didn't know what it was either. But basically you. You cap your head with these freezing caps that you. You put into dry ice at negative. For me, it was negative 25 to 30 degrees cold. So it is freezing. And then you kind of have to pad your pad around your skin and such so that you don't get burned. But basically you started about an hour before chemo, do it all through chemo, and then about four or five hours after. So it is a long day. And it. Talk about, you know, brain freeze. I mean, it really is. Literally, it's. It's a. It can be very painful and very intense, but at the same time, it gives you a chance of keeping your hair, or at least most of it. And even for those people who haven't been able to keep all their hair, what they say is that for them, like, their hair grows back sooner, quicker, thicker, that kind of thing. But most people that do it, depending on how much hair you have to begin with, I would say. And also depending on the type of chemo and how many rounds you have, that all plays a big role. You know, for some people that have to just do chemo on and on, I mean, it's not going to work. But, you know, I only had four rounds, and so it worked for me. So at least it's an option for anybody to look into.

Yeah.

If you.

And how often did you have to change the caps while you were getting chemo?

Every 30 minutes during the day and then every 20 minutes? No, every 20 minutes during chemo. And then on the other times, every 30 minutes. So it was, I will say, like the one benefit. I look back and I think when I was doing chemo, I had no time to sit and think about what was happening to me. And I was always like, all my pictures, I wore a cape every time I had, like, you know, I wore a crown. I went on my birthday. I went on Halloween. It was, like, the worst possible timing, and at Christmas, but, you know, I dressed up every time, and I made it a big thing. And it's kind of crazy, looking back to think, you know, why did I do that? But I think I was trying to be brave for the thing that you really, really, really didn't want to do. My. My friend had just been through chemotherapy just the year before, but she had pancreatic cancer, stage four, and she died within five months. And, you know, for me, that's. I was scared of chemotherapy. Yeah.

I was trying to be rightfully so. Right.

Kind of helps you to not have to think about that because you're just busy the whole day taking care of that. And so in that sense, it's kind of helpful, but.

And did someone help you? Did you have a buddy that came and helped you do that cold capping?

Yeah, my husband first, and then he kind of taught a few different friends. I had a few friends that came. I had to go about two hours from my house to Phoenix, and a couple of my friends down there came, and he would show them how, and then he would go golfing while they finished, you know, worked on it. So it was kind of. It was nice, too, because I felt like someone's there with me and taking care of me, and I was very blessed because I finished chemo right before COVID happened, and that wouldn't have been possible if it is during.

Yeah. And the interesting part is that it was probably really meaningful to them to be able to help you and have. And for them to have a purpose, because so many of the family members and caregivers, they struggle with, like, what can they do for you? Because everyone wants to help you. Right.

So true.

And so that must have given them great. Yeah. Great purpose.

I agree. And it. And it made us closer, so, you know.

Yeah.

Good in those ways. So essentially, it just kind of, like, spiraled, and one thing led to another and ended up getting both implants out and then later starting reconstruction over again after blood clots and kidney stones from chemo. And, you know, just kind of that plan that I had that three to six months was not gonna happen. And as many of you who listen to this know, you think you're gonna go back to a normal that's not there anymore. So it. I'm still trying to find whatever that new normal is supposed to be. I don't even know, but it's not what it was before. My body's not the same, my mind's not the same. To long story short, this. I just had my 15th surgery and. And it's not all cancer surgeries. The only cancer surgery was the double mastectomy, the first one. But I ended up with breast implant illness and, you know, ended up getting my implants out and doing a deep flap reconstruction. And that led to a massive strangulated hernia that almost killed me. And that led to now abdominal damage. I mean, I just learned finally from my 15th surgery that basically it like, I don't know what happened, but somehow I'm missing the right half of my rectus abdominis because of that hernia and. Or the surgery that happened at the time. I don't even know what's what anymore. But.

Yeah, because the deep flap is not supposed to take any muscle. No, it's to be a muscle sparing procedure.

Okay, that went fine. That went well. But we think what happened is either some of his stitches weren't tight enough or he nicked something. And, and my tissue was very weak and damaged from. Not only from chemo, but now I've learned I have Ehlers Danlos syndrome. So I. My tissue, it's a connective tissue disorder, genetic disorder. And I probably have always had it. Like I had some weird things. Like I threw up my back when I was in eighth grade. Just kind of weird things. But I didn't know that I had it until last year. But now looking back, it explains why my tissue just kind of like tears easily and I get joint injuries and things like that easily. So that, that might have all played a role, but also it ended up like just being a 4 inch tear in my abdomen where like 2ft of intestines were shooting through and it just shoved everything around. And I think that. But it did happen because of the deep flap surgery. You know what I mean? So it's like everything kind of led to another thing. So for me, it's almost all felt like breast cancer, even though the cancer. I was technically cancer free, or so I was told one week after I was diagnosed. Yeah, it's very confusing in your mind to hear that you're cancer free, but you're not free of cancer, you know, four and a half years later.

Yeah, well, you're not, you're not free of the consequences or the ramifications or the, you know, things that, that the cancer led to.

Right. And the trauma, that's huge. You know, that's. As a psychologist, that's something that I.

Ironic.

Yeah. And that's something that I had already been dealing with because my little sister, when she died, I, you know, I went into that field. But, man, I've learned more about trauma and iatrogenic trauma, meaning medical trauma. I. I've learned more about that through my own experience with breast cancer and all that's happened as a result than I ever thought I could know before. And, you know, here I am four and a half years later, still trying to kind of like, still literally, like, just was told I could get up and. And not have to sit in a recliner all day. Yeah, my 15 surgery. So it's very slow and hopefully steady progress and hopefully I'm getting somewhere. So not what I expected. Let's just say that.

Yeah, not what you expected, for sure. So I want to back up a little bit just for people who are having somewhat of a similar experience to yours, because implants are very commonly used and recommended reconstruction. So what does breast implant illness look like?

For me, it was. It was hard to tell. And this is why I think a lot of cancer survivors have trouble with this and with your providers, because I was just told, well, that's just from chemo. You know, I was exhausted. I had severe brain fog. Of course, I was having menopause response, too, because I just had a h. Full hysterectomy. And so everything was either blamed on menopause or, oh, that's just chemo. I. The big thing for me was I started having joint pain that was pretty significant. Like, I could not even sit. I could barely. And I. And I'm an active person usually. Like, I like to exercise. My wrote a whole book about exercise. But, you know, I. When I try to move and such, I would just get so much pain in my elbows and my hips and my knees. And that, to me, was the biggie because I just felt like I couldn't even basically move without feeling that pain and having to take some kind of, like, Avil or Tylenol. And on top of that, just, you know, depression, there's so many symptoms that it's hard to even, like, list them all. Yeah, but I think. I think what I would say about it is I didn't. I wasn't told by my doctor, you have breast implant illness. Like I said, everybody, all my doctors, and they were all great in what they did and their aspects. I loved what they did. But if I have, like, one complaint looking back, it's that I really had to fight for myself. I had to really advocate. I had to become the expert on everything on breast implant illness for sure. I had to go look it up, research it, understand what it was. And I will say too that when I first was getting about to get, when I was getting like the fills into my expanders by my plastic surgeon, I asked him about breast implant illness, like is that something that would happen to me? And he really pushed it off and was just like, no, no, that's not, that's not for cancer survivors. That's like for women who get regular breast implants or whatever. I mean, it's not going to happen to you. And now I know that I have a very sensitive body. I actually have mast cell activation syndrome. And so my body is low key, like allergic to a lot of things. And I just learned that last year too. But long before I learned why, I knew something wasn't right. I knew that instead of I started feeling a little bit better after I'd redone my breast reconstruction, got another infection, had to exchange the expander, switched over to implants again. I mean this was like 8, 9 surgeries of just infection after infection. So that was one sign. You know, obviously my body doesn't like these things because every time I get them put back in and I was flat for a while because I lost both my implants. I was flat. I didn't like how I looked and I really did want to look like myself again. But I kept getting these infections. So that was a big sign. And then I started feeling a little bit better after my last exchange surgery and then I started to feel worse again. So I think that's another thing is just like if you just can't explain it, even if you just feel like I just, I was feeling better and I'm just not anymore and I'm getting worse and worse and worse, then it's something to look into. And I really had to do the research, figure out that's what was going on, go find a doctor, a surgeon who actually did a deep flap and knew about breast implant illness. And actually he was the first one when he heard my symptoms was just like, yeah, that sounds exactly like breast implant illness. And then I had to go back to my other plastic surgeon, breast surgeon, oncologist, and say, look, I have breast implant illness. Whether you agree or not, that's what's going on. And I'm getting my implants out, you.

Know, so that's what I do. It's amazing because I think that this happens way more than is being appreciated. And not everyone knows how to do that, knows how to research, knows how to Self advocate. Not everyone is as in touch with themselves as you are, and they accept the explanation and the normalization from their doctor. Oh, you're just tired. Oh, it's just left over for chemo. Oh, you know, it's just recovery from surgery. Oh, it's the infection. Oh, it's the this. Oh, it's the that. I'm so curious as to your surgeon saying to you that breast implant illness doesn't happen for breast cancer reconstruction. It's like, I wonder if that person went home that night and went, how did I just say?

Like, why wouldn't it be true? I have several breasts, like plastic surgeons, and this was the one that did my double mastectomy, that did my expanders. But by the time I had exchanged out to implants, he had actually moved. But he was one of these, like, traditional, you think of, like, male plastic surgeons, like, God complex. So he was. He just was that kind of guy. And even in his own office, everybody thought that. So I kind of took it with a grain of salt, knowing that he's kind of this, like, he thinks all that. But I really did believe him, too. And it was you did here that I looked back and went, like, is he to tell me, like, that can't happen to me. And of course, I didn't know my body was that sensitive. And not everybody's going to react. That's one thing I've learned, is not everybody's going to react to the implants. But you don't know that ahead of time until you get something in you. And the way I know that now, even more so, is that when I had the hernia, they. I woke up and they had put a giant piece of mesh in me, like this big in my whole abdomen. And I was so angry because I was like, I just got a deep, flat, deep flap to get the implants out and just have my own tissue. And you put a device in me and, you know, and they again were like, oh, it's it. It's absorbable. It won't cause any problems. It's not plastic. But my body had rejected even the dermal matrix made of, like, animal tissue.

Oh, it did. Wow.

Yeah, even that, like, when I lost my left implant, that's what it was. It was. It got an infection in that dermal matrix, which is for anybody who doesn't know. But. So, yeah, and it ended up. And then two years I had gastroparesis. I ended up with all kinds of illness. Chronic, chronic idiopathic constipation. I still have of course, a lot of this we just thought was caused by the hernia itself because it was so bad. I mean, it was so bad that they literally took me from Flagstaff, Arizona to Scottsdale, two hour drive in an ambulance because they needed me to go down and be with my other surgeon. And I had to be rushed right into surgery. I mean, it was scary, but, I mean, then I finally had to realize that I was getting worse and worse. I started having liver problems, I started having heart problems. I was having all kinds of issues. And I was on the precipice of probably more autoimmune disease when I started researching mesh implant illness. And turns out, yep, that's what it was. And that's when I found the surgeon that I have now who took out the hernia mesh and repaired all that damage with skin from my back. So it's my own tissue. And then the surgery I just had now was just to repair that again, to fix it again, because it's pretty extensive damage in my abdomen from that hernia. But I just. We just don't know what we don't know until. You don't know until you. Until you know. And so I just, I encourage everybody because I agree. I. I never felt like I was that great at being an advocate, but I sure feel like I am now. You know, I'm. I'm out there talking to my doctors, doing all the research and, and I know that I'm the expert on my body now, but it's hard, especially when you're scared and you're just trying to survive and you're sick, you know, I totally understand. And you're traumatized. I mean, that's just the other huge thing that I had no idea how traumatic this would be and how much PTSD I would have. And I'm like, I'm back doing trauma work again now about all my surgeries because it's just been so constant and it's hard to do that emotional work while you're still being traumatized, you know?

Yeah, I mean, I'm just still trying to think about why they would say that breast implant illness doesn't happen in women with breast cancer.

And the only thing that I can.

Think about is that breast cancer illness, as you're seeing, is kind of an over exaggerated response of the immune system. And most women with breast cancer have a diminished immune system that's part of the development of the disease. So, you know, maybe that's what they're thinking. But one thing he did say, it's just literally Impossible that women who get implants but have breast cancer don't get breast implant illness.

It's so. It's so much more common. Like you said. It's just. And I feel like now it's more known about. More known even than four and a half years ago. I. Like I said, I'd never heard of it. Someone reached out to me on Instagram to tell me about it. That's how I learned about it. But at least it's being talked about more. And people like me and others who end up getting it, you know, are talking about it too. That this does happen too, to all women. And it's a certain percentage. And you either are or aren't going to react to them, but if you are, you are. And if you know that, you're reacting like. Honestly, I just say one thing that really pushed me to get my implants out was I met a woman right when I was wondering about this, when I was starting feeling sicker and sicker, I met a woman who had told me that she had had breast implant illness. And I read her in a whole different setting. She had had breast cancer, she had gotten implants. And 10 years later, she was so sick and they didn't know what was wrong with her. She was so sick that they were putting her on palliative care because there was nothing more they could do for her like she was. Yeah. And she learned about that is very real.

Right?

It's awful. It's crazy. So that's why I say, like, sometimes you don't really. It's not like, oh, if you have these five symptoms, you definitely have it. It's like there's a bunch of symptoms you can have for any kind of reactive reaction to any kind of device. And. And if you have them and you're just getting worse and worse and there's. And the doctors don't know why. I mean, it's something that you should look into is what I'm saying. Yeah.

I want to talk about your Eller Danlos, because I'm wondering, had they known that, whether or not they would have made very different recommendations from the start. So can you just explain to people what. What it means to have Ehler Danlos and how they might know if they have it or not.

Now this is another thing I'd never heard of along with mast cell.

You got quite an education, my dear.

Yeah, I feel like I should get a degree or something.

You certainly should.

But yes. And honestly, this all came about just because a friend of mine is a doctor. Who specializes in autoimmune disease and genetic issues, and especially in mast cell activation syndrome. Pots, Ehlers Danlos. And I didn't know this, but now I know those three often come hand in hand. And she had been watching this whole journey unfold because I've been very vocal and sharing everything on my Instagram and on Facebook. And she was wondering, yes, you are.

And everyone should follow you on Instagram to hear about your journey because you are very honest and open about it.

Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. Feels like something I can do at least while I'm in the middle of all this.

Right?

Yeah. And she'd been watching and she was wondering if I had mast cell. And basically, like I said, it's a histamine over reactive histamine response. And basically you kind of react like, like an allergic reaction to lots of different things, even stress and all that kind of stuff.

You have an exaggerated histamine response to lots and lots of environmental trigger. Most people are meaningless.

Right. And, and again. And, and so she. It wasn't until last year, after 14 surgeries, after chemo, after everything, after three and a half years, that I finally met with her and she did an evaluation like two hour long. And she's asking all these questions and I had just, I had just like these random symptoms. This was even after I had gotten out the, the mesh, even. So I knew that I didn't have the devices in me anymore, but. And I was feeling a little bit better. I really was. But then I started feeling worse again and I still had, I thought I still had gastroparesis. It ended up that, that actually went away. That was actually caused by my hernia mesh. And that's a paralyzed stomach. For anybody who doesn't know, I'd never heard of that either.

Yeah. Which is, it's, it's a horrible, horrible feeling. And yeah, you can eat. You're. You're nauseated all the time.

Yeah.

It's a real problem when your stomach doesn't work.

Yeah. So I spent like three years just being chronically nauseous and chronic constipation and everything. And I still deal with a lot of that, but it turns out I had all these still random symptoms, like random headaches where my eyes get blurry at certain times, or like I said, like joint pain that wasn't as bad as it was before, but just like odd stuff. And when I talked to her and she did this evaluation, like they all fit into these categories. And so she's the one that told me, you do have mast cell activation syndrome. And. And a lot of times it can just be one or two or they call it. The terrible trifecta is all three Ehlers Danlos Mast cell activation syndrome and pots or postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome, which I didn't know I had and she diagnosed me with last year and then I ended up with high blood pressure and I have this ad. Adrenergic. Hyper adrenergic type. So my. Usually your blood pressure would be low, but yeah, having all kinds of problems just standing, sitting, that's what that pot. And then the Ehlers Danlos on top of it, which is this connective tissue disorder, which if you think about it, your whole body is connective tissue. So it can affect all different systems and organs. And you know, when I look back, like I always had really. I was a dancer and I had bad knees and I had to wear knee pads and I had to wear things for my heels because I. My heels always hurt. And like I said, I threw out my back when I was young. So I had some things like that when I was young. But like she said, it's like the breast cancer. And it wasn't even the cancer. It was a treatment that I went through.

Right.

Caused all these problems and triggered this auto. Autoimmune disease, which is the POTS and the mast cell and genetic disease. Ehlers Danlos in a more. In a bigger way. So that now I've had six hernias and you know, and. And so my tissue just tears. And again, they said that was because the chemo. I'm sure chemo didn't help and it might have even triggered or set something off. But I believe that I wouldn't be having mast cell POTS and Ehlers Danlos like I am now, which are. It's. It's hard to deal with chronic illness. It's a whole different world now. Yeah. But without breast cancer, I don't know that I would be dealing with all these things, you know.

So what's so interesting and I want to get into that a little bit, but first I want to know like, do you have the hyper flexibility? Can you touc your thumb to your forearm?

Forearm. It's just kind of. That's the thing where like I can almost do it and my arms are kind of like this. So that's.

Oh, yeah, you have a little bit of hyper extension.

Yeah. Like I can, you know, I can easily touch my toes. It's one of the.

It's one of the tells of Eller Danlos but obviously, there are people who are flexible who don't have Eller Danlos. But that. That is one of the tells.

One of the other ones is stretchy skin, and I don't have that part, but not everybody has that. But I'm pretty sure my daughter has Ehlers Danlos, and she can, like, fold her ears in little bits, and her skin's really stretchy, and. But she has a lot of the same symptoms that I have. Because it is a genetic issue.

Yeah. Yeah, it is. So this is probably a really hard question, and I don't know if you've asked this, and I don't know if you've asked this of your doctors, but knowing now that you have Ehler Danlos, do you think that they would have made different recommendations from the start in that maybe just suggesting a lumpectomy rather than taking on all of this surgery in someone with a connective tissue disorder?

That's such a good question. Honestly, I feel like most doctors don't really know too much about Ehlers Danlos. Yeah, I feel like if they did know or if I told them and they went and, like, researched and got educated, maybe they would have made different choices. I think I would have made different choices. You know, looking back, I definitely wouldn't have gotten implants. I might have just gone for a deep flap or maybe, like you said, if I knew that I had Ehlers Danlos and somebody really sat down and explained to me what that meant and what could happen and all the risk factors. Because I do remember them saying things like when I had my deep flap, like, you there's this percent chance that you can get a hernia. I didn't really know what a hernia was. I didn't. You know, I'd heard of it. I didn't really know what it was. Okay. Yeah. And I'm like, all right, whatever. Hernia. Everybody hernias. Right? That's a common thing. But I didn't know, like, they could kill you, you know? So I just wish that there was more dialogue and more education for me. And also, I guess I've learned to do that with them and to sit them down. And, like, now my oncologist knows. I just saw him last week. He comes and just sits down in a chair next to me, like, tell me everything. And I just tell him everything. Because, you know, I. I wish that there was more of that at the beginning. Me, not just. And not just me telling them what's going on, but them, you know, sharing their expertise because they are educated. And doing what they're doing because they're good at it.

Yeah. And you know, those conversations, as evidenced by all that happened to you, are really important because, you know, surgeries can go perfectly and then you can have 14 complications afterwards and have 14 additional surgeries, even though the first surgery went really well. And there is an issue around informed consent and people really understanding what this means. And I certainly understand, although they did know at the time, that you have a genetic mutation and that, that that might have, certainly if they had known about it, it would have played into their decision making. But even women with a genetic mutation who have an increased risk of breast cancer because their tumor suppressor genesis don't work as efficiently as someone who does not have a mutation in their tumor suppressor genes. We know when we look at those populations, 100% of women with that mutation do not get breast cancer. Right. And there's still, there's still another element. There's something else at play that allows some women to not have that diagnosis, and that's the environment. And the environment has a tremendous impact on who does and who doesn't get breast cancer, on who does and who doesn't have gene activation and that kind of thing. And so I wonder, have you been able to kind of look back and think about what contributed to your breast cancer diagnosis?

Yes. I mean, it's easy for me to say, well, for me it was genetic, but, and I do, I do believe there is that there for sure.

Yeah, there's definitely a piece of that. But, but our genes, our genes load the gun.

Right?

But, but our experiences, our environment, that pulls the trigger.

Well, and think about just the brief bits that I shared about my life before cancer. I mean, a lot of trauma, a lot of traumatic loss, death, grief, mental health issues, myself, and a lot of stress. I mean, this, this was 2019 and that was, you know, 12 years after my sister and brother in law died. But I mean, I was a mom of six trying to also be a psychologist and an author and a speaker and raise six kids and be there for them while they're dealing with their grief and trauma as well. And I was just like, go, go, go. Busy, busy, busy. You know, I ate pretty darn healthy. I exercise, you know, I feel like, I feel like I really did take good care of myself. And ironically or fatefully, I don't know, but the year that I was diagnosed with breast cancer, I had made a goal to be in the healthiest that I'd ever been. And I was eating the best that I'D ever eaten and I was exercising the most and taking the best care of myself. But when I look back, I mean, I'm so opposite now than I was. I feel so non busy and so, you know, but I'm glad that I'm not and I don't want to go back to that because it wasn't healthy and I couldn't have sustained it. I felt like I needed to do it. I felt like I needed to take care of everybody and everything. I mean, I'm a psychologist. That's, that's my job too. Not, not just with my family, but everybody's problems became my problems. And then suddenly I got sick and I had to stop. And it made me question my worth, honestly. Like, you know, what good am I if I can't help people or support others or you know, get up and do X, Y and Z. And especially when I haven't been able to be there for my kids and a few of my kids, you know, that are now a little bit older. But like my daughter who was 15 when I was diagnosed, she was just angry at me because I wasn't the mom that she knew I couldn't be that when I was going through chemo and, and especially those first surgeries and some of the bigger surgeries. So I've really had to take a hard look at myself and keep working on my sense of self worth and over and over again. And I have a whole like model of self worth that I developed years ago that has helped me because it's not about self esteem. It's not about just how we think or feel about ourselves. It's about really like knowing that we truly are of value and worth even when we're literally sitting in a recliner for six weeks and doing quote, nothing but healing. You know, that's how it sounds in my mind. You're really so much, you know.

Yeah, yeah. So do you think part of the go, go, go and busy, busy, busy was to fill the space so that you didn't have to process all the trauma?

You know, I did, I did go to therapy every time and I did. I thought I had worked through the trauma. Like after my friend's suicide, I went again. And after my, of course after my sister's death and my brother in law's death, I went for a couple years. But looking back now, there's so many layers of trauma and the work that I'm doing now is so intense and it's all linked, you know, that's one thing I want everybody to Know that, you know, it's like. I think of it like a tapestry, you know, when you have loss and grief and traumatic experiences, they weave together, and you. It's like you. You think you're pulling one string. Like I'm pulling the breast cancer surgery string. But I'm really dealing with the loss of my sister again, and I'm really dealing with my friend suicide again, you know, so it's all. It kind of. You can't pull a string.

It opens the floodgates.

Yeah. And that's normal. That's trauma, that's ptsd. That's. That's how you do the work. And right now I'm doing emdr, but I've also done some ketamine assisted therapy. And honestly, I might have to go back to that again, because even the emdr, it's hard for me to get down there. There's so much. It's like a basement full of trauma. And so I really thought I had worked on it at the time, and I think. I know I did the best. Even when my little sister died and I was 18 years old, I went to therapy. I worked on the grief. But now that I feel it and I'm having to deal with it in this whole new way, and I have so much physical trauma in my body and scars and all this. I've literally been cut in half twice across the whole front of my body, my whole back, because he took a whole section of my skin. So it's like I've been curved and rearranged and amputated and all that stuff. So that the trauma in there has been kind of carved and resurfaced, too. So I realize now that I think you're right. I do think I was trying to be busy. Just not just. But in part to obviously to put this family together and to help my children grieve and to help myself just cope, but also because I really hadn't dealt with the hardest parts of the deepest trauma, which is now the work that I'm doing because of all I've been through from breast cancer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I. I don't think it's unusual for people who have a lot of childhood and lifetime trauma, they. They tend to become people like you, that. That have that through your personal work. You want to project that to the world and help other people process theirs.

Yes, I agree. I think. I mean, and I feel good about that. Like, that is a blessing. I feel like I can look back and say, okay, my. My little sister's death led me to Become a psychologist. You know, my mom getting breast cancer when I was 15. It. It helped me. And my. And my little sister died when I was 18. And seeing how my parents dealt with grief and they kind of shut down and our whole family kind of fell apart, it. That helped me to not do that. When it was me raising children who were experiencing grief and loss and, you know, trying to build this family and to do it differently. You know, having breast cancer now, I feel, I mean, now that I've been working through it for so long, and I still, obviously, like I said, I'm still dealing with the physical parts of it and the mental and emotional, but I do feel this new sense of purpose. I feel like I want to help people, survivors out there, people going through treatment, women going through treatment especially to have that mental and emotional support and understanding from the start. I feel like it should be part of the discussion, that first day discussion that we're talking about that should have included more than, hey, you should probably have a double mastectomy. And. And here's how it's done. And not giving really the options of going flat or maybe doing a deep flap or maybe doing a lump back to me, I don't know. But also should include. And I will say my breast surgeon was actually very good at this, but she's the only one of my doctors, my physical health doctors, who was really good at this. Should include, you know, this is probably going to be a traumatic experience for you, and a lot of women struggle with that. And I just want you to know that you're validated and, you know, here's where you can go to talk to someone, and here's what you can do. And I know some cancer centers in some places have that from the start, but I just, I've been in touch with hundreds of women online, and most never get this kind of support.

Yeah, I think that's a really important point because when we offer up a mastectomy, as. As cancer surgeons, we totally underappreciate the impact that a breast amputation is going to have on a woman. Because it's not just a cancer surgery. This is an organ that is an external organ. It forever changes the way that you see yourself. You know, lots of people have their pancreas out and they don't think a thing of it. They have their colon out, and they don't think a thing of it because it's not something that they have to literally face every single day. And when I was a surgeon, I. I would tell people that, you Know, if you have a mastectomy, there will never come another day in your life. Well, you will forget that you had breast cancer. But if you have a well done lumpectomy and you heal, well, there will come a day when you don't associate yourself with breast cancer. And so I do think that the impact of, of mastectomy is totally unappreciated by the providers and people are totally unprepared for what it's going to mean.

I so agree. And I love that you had that discussion because I felt like I was looking around going like, I'm traumatized. And I felt like I just got some parts of me amputated. And not to mention as a mom, like, that's like, that's how I fed my children. I mean, it just. And as a woman, I mean, just. And then having hysterectomy, I literally felt at one point like every part of me that makes me female is being removed because I was losing my hair at the same time, you know, So I mean, it's.

And your identity, right?

And identity. Who am I now? I'm still trying to figure that out.

Yeah.

So you're right. I think if more could do what you did, I think that's, that's a great start. And even just that you call it amputation, like most of them do not. And, and that's what I call it because that's what it is.

That's what it is.

Seem like it's kind of like, oh, I'm having a double mastectomy next week, big deal. But I remember just like grieving the night before and just like looking at myself in the mirror and kind of just like, I'm never gonna look like me again. I'm never gonna feel like me again. And, and even then I didn't understand the impact that it was gonna have.

I think, unfortunately, we've done a disservice to people by giving horrible things nice names. And mastectomy is one of those areas. Like, I understand a breast amputation sounds really harsh, but it is really harsh. And when we call it a mastectomy, people don't appreciate how, how deeply impactful it's going to be on you.

Right.

And I do think that in many areas we need to be more careful about our wording and not. Not sugarcoat things up front because the ramifications afterwards are terrible. And people really feel blindsided by it all and don't expect and are not informed. And it's the same thing with mammogram. I think if if instead of calling it mammogram, we called it a breast X ray, which is what it is, people would be more fearful about it. And they should be. We need to be. I mean, we know for every, for every 10,000 women that we image, we will, we will save one. One life or extend one life. And we're gonna, we're gonna change the life negatively of 200 women. 200 women are going to be treated for breast cancer that did not need to be treated for breast cancer. And so, you know, these are areas where we really need to improve and we really need to be more transparent. Yes, more transparent about what's happening.

I have to say, as a psychologist, like, it reminds me of the idea that people think you shouldn't talk about suicide, which is another area I'm passionate about because of my personal experience and something I teach about, which is just not true. They think if you talk about it, you're going to encourage people, you're going to scare them, you're going to xyz. And I feel them suggestion. I feel the same about like breast cancer and really pretty much every medical condition. It's like we don't want to scare them. We don't want to put thoughts in their head. We don't want them to think this or that. So we're trying to kind of sugarcoat or make it sound fine or normal. It's so not normal, you know, so no wonder four out of five women that go through breast cancer cancer treatment end up with PTSD versus 1 in 5 in the general population that have a traumatic experience. Yeah, I mean, that's insanely high numbers of women that are traumatized. And most, most are never even told they're traumatized. And like you said, a lot of it is because every doctor visits, like, well, this is just normal. It's normal that you have to get more scans every year or you have to see your oncologist every six months. You know, it's just. Yeah. I think if people, if we use different terms, I'm so with you on that. And if we just kind of set it up front, I don't think, I don't think it's going to make anybody worse off. In fact, if anything, it's just going to make them know that they're not alone, they're not crazy for feeling what they feel and that there's help somewhere to get to get some kind of support for that mental, emotional, traumatic side that is still you.

Yeah. I was struck by something that you said and I just want to make sure I got this right. You were 15 when your mother was diagnosed with breast cancer, and Your daughter was 15 when you were diagnosed with breast cancer. That must have been really scary for you.

Yeah, it. I mean, even just you saying that and me sighing, it shows you. Just, like, there's just a lot of trauma there. There's a lot of trauma to unpack. And My daughter's now 20, and she. We've had to work on our relationship, and I have. I've had a lot of issues with my mom, and we've had a really rocky relationship because of not just her being sick, but, you know, with the deaths of my sisters. And just. I just have felt like my family never dealt with grief. My mom and dad didn't really ever deal with the grief. We didn't talk about it. So I was very conscious of. I want to be open with my kids. I want to talk to them about what's happening. I want to explain. Explain things and be honest and keep the dialogue. And, you know, for most of my kids, that worked fine. For my one nephew, that's the oldest of my sister's kids, it's now my son, he just kind of didn't come around because that's how he felt about it, because he was scared to lose me like he lost his mom and dad.

Yeah. I mean, he must have horrible abandonment issues.

Yes. Yes. And I just had to understand that. And for me, it's like. It is. It's like. It felt like, oh, my gosh, my life is literally on repeat, like, replaying out. And now my daughter's having the same experience. But I felt like my mom. I don't even remember my mom and dad telling me my mom had breast cancer. I don't even know how I found out. But my kids will remember how they found out, because I got everybody together. We sat down in a room, and I told them, and we talked. And, you know, so I. Yeah, it's. It's complicated. And we've had to really work on our relationship since then, my daughter and myself. And my mom and I still have issues. You know, we still have troubles. She kind of was there for me with my breast cancer journey, but she just doesn't deal with emotions, so I couldn't. I still feel like I can't talk to her about, like, the trauma part of it, even though she gets it.

It's.

I don't know. It's complicated. So it is a generational family familial issue, too. It's not. I mean, we don't have cancer in a vacuum. Right. It's a family. Families, of course.

And I would imagine, you know, there's a lot of fear around potential loss and, and I think it's a normal natural instinct to separate so that the pain isn't as bad if it happens. And I, I'm certain that, you know, that is an element of all of it.

And you're so right. And I love that you're saying this because it's helping me right now with my own trauma processing. But it's, it's very true. I mean, I, that's my biggest fear is that I'm going to die and my kids are gonna lose another mother. You know, honestly that. And it's a very real fear because we've lost so many mother figures, you know, like mothers and mother figures, whatever. And, and so, yeah, I think that there's, there's something to be said for that. Definitely. I think I'm making myself have to face it all and deal with it now. And it's heavy and it's hard, but I know, I know it weights on the other side. I know that that's the only way for me to heal and for me to be able to see clients and work with breast cancer patients, which I'm hoping to do against or not again for the first time soon work with breast cancer patients. Because there's just. There aren't a lot of great resources for mental health out there with women who understand, you know.

So I think I pretty much know the answer to this. But knowing what you know now, what would you change about this whole breast cancer system?

I mean, just. Yeah, the education discussion. I would. Here's what I feel called to do is like integrate this mental emotional aspect of your health along with it. I mean, we know now the mind and body are intercept. Inter, you know, interwoven and ways that can't be separated. And it's so very true. When you're going through a medical issue, it's not just happening to your body. So I would, you know, increase our discussion and education and maybe give more time to process before we jump into a treatment. I just, I just felt you're just scared, so you're just kind of like, okay, whatever they say, I'll do it, you know, and you don't have time, you don't have the awareness. You're just. It's so surreal. So I feel like if we could have some, some way to like have more of a discussion like over time versus like a one time meeting. And I know that's not easy because I know doctors are busy and health care and reimbursement and all that. I mean, there's. There's so much there. But for me, it's. It's all about the discussion, the openness, the honesty, and telling us kind of like what to really expect and giving us options. You know, I just, I love. I do still love my early doctors, except the one plastic surgeon. But I. I look back and I think. But they didn't really give me options. You know, I didn't feel like I had options. I even thought that a deep flap was like punishment. It was like the worst case scenario. But, you know, if I were going to do a double mastectomy, again, I would do a deep flap because I know I don't want implants in me, you know, So I don't know, I just feel more discussion, more education, and definitely that mental emotional piece. And then like walking with, like educating and helping the clients know. Like you maybe using different terms, maybe just being honest like this probably can be really challenging mentally and emotionally. It's probably going to cause a lot of trauma. Here's someone you can talk to if that's not that. That, you know, if it's not the doctor that needs to be the one talking to them, but just like helping them get the care that they need. And yeah, I'm passionate about.

I. I'm stuck on when you said give more time to process because there is like a heated rush to get you scheduled for surgery and schedul chemo and scheduled for radiation. And with very rare exception, breast cancer, though it feels like an emergency, it certainly feels like an emergency, it is not. And even with an invasive breast cancer, it is not an emergency. And you are rushed to make these decisions that have such a tremendous impact on the rest of your life and your rush to make them without giving you the time to process. And that is really why I wrote my book, the Smart Person's Guide to Breast Cancer is because I. The most important principle that's in that book is that we all need to slow down and take a breath. We all need to process what is happening and take the time and space to make the right decision for you. Because I don't know if you would have made that same decision if you had taken more time to think about it. I don't know, maybe you would have, maybe you wouldn't have, but at least you would have been more prepared. At least you would have been settled in that decision. Because so many people go into surgery uncertain if they're making that right decision. And that really does play into how you do afterwards. Yes.

You don't understand how much that is true until later. You just don't know what you don't know. And I think also in, in addition to that, what you're saying is so true, like maybe even helping, helping us like connect with other survivors that can talk to us about that and help us understand that reality. Because you're not going to really understand what it's like after. Until you're after. But I think it would help to be able to. Yeah. Have more time and, and talk to more people and, and not just have the one or two doctors opinions about this is what you should do and.

How it should almost be mandatory. Yeah.

Like I managed like a gun, like buying a gun, you know, like you should have to wait.

Yeah.

Like, I mean, I mean, this is honestly you saying. This is the first time I've ever thought about how crazy traumatic that is that I had a double mastectomy one week to the day after I was diagnosed with breast cancer. Cancer. And of course I'm gonna die if I don't do this. Of course.

And, and to some extent, like they're, they're playing on that because they don't want you to have. I mean, part of it is that they don't want you to sit with the burden of you having cancer and not actively doing anything about it.

Yes.

But part of it is like get them in the system because the system needs patience. Right. I mean, it is at the end of the day a business.

Yes.

Right. Doctors are very well intentioned, but at the end of the day, it's a business.

Yes. And it's, it's a scary business for the patient. That's for darn sure.

Yeah.

And so it's easy to take advantage of that without even even meaning to or trying to in a lot of cases. Right.

Well, I mean, it's, it's kind of a setup for that. Right. You know, vulnerable patient, viable solution. Let's put them together as quickly as we can. Yeah. And that's what's happening all day, every day. But I don't think ethically taking someone to the operating room one week after they've gotten this diagnosis with no time or space to process is the right thing to do. Yeah.

It's the first time I've thought about it because honestly, the way I thought about before now, you talking to you is like, wow, I'm so lucky that they took, that they took me so seriously. They got me in so quickly. I didn't have to wait, you know, But I didn't know then what I know now that how, like you said, the impact of that and no one talked to me about that. The impact, what it would be like later. Yeah.

So what's up next for you? Because this chapter is going to be closed. You are going to be able to put at least some of this behind you. So what's up next? Where are you. Where are you setting your sights? Where are you going to change the focus?

Well, I am already working on. I did a big talk last year for. It's kind of like a TED Talk, but with this group called Amplify Voices on PTSD and Breast Cancer. And people can go find that through my website or through my Instagram, but I plan to. I'm going to give a TED Talk on this. And also I'm working on a book, a second memoir about my experiences with breast cancer. And also really focusing in on the mental and emotional healing side of things. So that's kind of what I do. And I've actually started some advocacy work with different organizations trying to work on implementing more of that mental and emotional care into traditional cancer treatment for women. So even though I've been recovering from surgery and I feel like I've done nothing, that's. That's actually what I am doing and working on just little tiny bits at a time. And like you said, I'm really hopeful that this is the year that I finally don't have more complications and that this might be the last surgery, at least for a few years. And maybe I can actually feel like I have some kind of time where I can close this chapter, at least a little bit. Not that you forget or that you have to let it go or anything like that. It becomes part of you, obviously, but that space to kind of heal for real and not keep having the wound reopened, you know?

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I did just say a prayer for you. And I do pray to God that your future is filled with health and great purpose, which I'm certain it will be. And I'm so grateful for all of your honesty and vulnerability today. I do think that your experience will help a lot of women to have a different perspective, a much needed perspective. And, you know, whether you wanted to or not, you're paying it forward.

Thank you. And thank you for this discussion, the way you led it today. You've really helped me get in tune with some things that maybe I hadn't thought about before with myself. So you're helping me heal just by doing this discussion and thinking.

I'm. I'm so very glad for people who want to follow you. And I'm certain that everyone listening is going to want to follow you. Where can they find you?

So My website is Dr. Christina. Dr. Christina with a C. Hibbert. H I B-B-E-R-T.com. you can also find me on Facebook and Instagram and TikTok and YouTube @ Dr. Christina Christina Hibbert.

Awesome. Awesome. So make sure that you follow Dr. Hibbert. She really does a beautiful, vulnerable, raw and honest. She. She gives all that information on her Instagram. I follow you and I just love how, how raw and honest you can be out there because I think people want to see truth and not some manufactured story or some, like, sunshine version of breast cancer because it just doesn't exist.

I agree.

And, and, and people, you know, they need. They need the truth. And you're out there being a provider and a truth seeker. And so I'm grateful for that. Although I fully appreciate how difficult your journey has been and that it's not. It's not over yet, but it should only continue to get better and you should only know good health going forward.

I so appreciate that. Thank you so much.

It's my pleasure. If you liked this podcast, please share it with a friend. Make sure that you're following every week. Subscribe to the podcast. I will be back next week with another someone special. It's Dr. Jen. Bye for now.