Keeping Abreast Episode 76: Debunking Myths: Hormones and Breast Cancer with Dr. Killen

Hello, everyone.

You are in for a treat today.

I. You know, there are a lot of idols out there. Definitely, I have a lot of idols, but some of them just continue to amaze me with the things that they do and what they've done, what they continue to do, the stuff that they put out there, their constant, amazing, unbelievable leadership and contribution to health and wellness and longevity and just improving life for humans. And one of these people I have with me Today, and it's Dr. Amy Killen. And literally, she just continues to amaze me with her accomplishments, with her broad, amazing understanding of the medical literature, the medical landscape, making it all relatable to everyone and telling a story in a way that's entertaining, but that everyone's learning and can walk away from that and make their lives better. So, Amy, I don't know if you knew that you were my hero, but here we are. So, Dr. Amy Killen, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much. That was the most amazing intro I've ever had, so thank you so much.

We share a little bit in common in that you come from a very conventional medical background. You were an emergency medicine doctor, right?

That's right. Yeah. I did ER medicine for residency, plus seven years, so about 10 years total. Yeah.

How does an emergency medicine doctor get the kind of perspective that you have? I mean, there's something had to happen to make that shift, because that's a big shift.

It is a big shift. And, you know, I think what happened is I. So I had three kids within two years. I have twins and then one more at 20 months. And when my third child was born, my husband a week later moved out of state for a job. So I was alone with these three kids, and I was working at a 4am shift in the ER, so I had to be, you know, be up at three in the morning every day. And so I did this for a couple of years. And, you know, as you might imagine, I was sleeping three or four hours a day. I was eating garbage. I was drinking Diet Cokes and Monsters all day, every day. Wasn't exercising, incidentally.

You were in good company because that's what every emergency medicine doctor was doing.

It absolutely is. Somehow I drank 100 ounces of, you know, of sodas during my shift, and I never went to the bathroom for 10 hours. That's an ER doctor right there. But it's a surgeon, too. Yeah.

Just so you know, like, I would pride myself on how long I could go without having to use the restroom.

It is amazing what our bladders can do. But after doing that for a while, I started feeling. I started feeling pretty burned out and just not doing very well. And I realized one day I was in the ER and I was working, and I was looking out at all the patients in the waiting room who are waiting to be seen. And I just had this revelation that if I didn't get my act together, I was going to be one of those patients in five years with a chronic medical problem that could have been prevented if they'd had education and resources and means and all of that. So I just decided to start learning about how to be healthy. And it was really the first time I ever took, you know, really learned. We don't learn this in medical school or residency. So I started educating myself and then over the years, eventually left the ER in 2013 and have been doing this ever since.

So you say that you educated yourself. How did you do that? Because that's no easy feat. I mean, for me, I enrolled in the Institute for Functional Medicine, but first I enrolled in iin, the Institute for Integrative Nutrition. Like, I was grasping at straws to figure out where to get this information.

Yeah, same with me. I went through a training course through AMMG. I went through the A4M American Anti Aging Medicine. I think they changed their name of it was a metabolic medicine program. So I did that for a year, took the test, did the whole kind of fellowship program. But really, most of the learning has come just on my own, just being curious about questions that I had and going to the primary resources and literature and reading what are the answers, and then going to a lot of events and talking to other doctors to see what they're doing and how I can learn from them.

Yeah, and you said remaining curious. And I think that that is a unique characteristic that is absent in most doctors. Because I think what happens is those people that are curious in the process of training, it may work for them temporarily, but then if they are questioning the conventional paradigm, those people are quickly ostracized. And if you try to step outside of that range of what doctors do, you really, really ostracized?

Oh, 100%. I mean, all of my friends, all of my ER friends, which, you know, they're great people, but when I first left the ER to go, you know, I started working in the hormone replacement therapy space, you know, the kind of lifestyle medicine space originally, and all my friends were like, what are you doing? Like, they would make fun of me because then say, I wasn't a doctor anymore. They make me cry sometimes with their Ridiculing. But I just knew that I didn't want to stay. Like, once I. Once you learn this stuff, you can't unlearn it and, you know, it's so you can't just continue to practice the same way. Once you understand the things that you didn't understand before. Yeah.

What do you think the biggest revelation was for you in that process? Like, what made you hit the point of no return?

I mean, there were, there were a lot of little revelations. I think when I started learning about hormones and, and how we. We just, in conventional medicine weren't using them appropriately, that was the big kind of thing in my mind that was like, oh my gosh, I have to start understanding this and then offer it to people. I didn't, you know, before, before learning about, you know, hormones I had no idea about. I didn't even know what menopause was. I think I'd heard of it, but that was basically it. Like, I had no training on, on perimenopause or menopause or any of this stuff. I didn't know what the word was. And if you, you know, if you follow me now, I talk about it all the time because I feel like there's such an absence of information and an excess of misinformation out there about these topics. Yeah.

Couldn't be more true. And while we're on that topic, if you're not following Dr. Killen, you must be following her because her social media is amazing. I can't tell you how many times you post something. I'm like, ok, I really have to post about that.

Thank you so much.

So you said that we're not using hormones correctly or not using hormones at all. I think one of the most amazing things is that where do most people go to get their hormones information? They go to their gynecologist. Only having been through medical school, you know as well as I do that the gynecologists, they're not trained about hormones. They're not educated about hormones, they don't know about hormones. And the only thing they're trained to do, quite frankly, is to prescribe birth control pills for what they consider menstrual cycle abnormalities or anything related to. And they're really trained surgeons. That is the majority of what they do in their four years of training is they learn to deliver babies, they learn to do C sections and they learn to do gynecologic surgeries. That is really what they're trained to do. They are not hormone experts. And yet that's where everyone's going for their information, which is why they're so lost.

And less than 10% of gynecologists admit to feeling comfortable taking care of menopausal women, you know, in any way outside of just giving some basic lifestyle recommendations. And that's the field of medicine that has taken the most ownership of hormones, but really hasn't taken much ownership at all. And you'd think that, you know, endocrinologists or someone like that, who, they're hormone doctors, but they don't actually deal with perimenopause, menopause, andropause in men. They deal more with other hormonal problems. So, you know, people always ask me, like, what kind of doctor should I see for my hormones, you know, whether it's perimenopause or menopause. And I just tell them, you should see a doctor that has done the work, put the time in. Like, it could be any. It could be a surgeon, it could be pallia practice, it could be, you know, orthopedics. Like, it could be anyone, as long as they have put the work in and know how to. To address these problems.

Yeah. So you started off really in that hormone space, but now your focus is really on anti aging, on longevity, on sexual health. Tell me about that. How did you, how did you arrive at that?

Well, the sexual health piece was interesting. When I started seeing hormone patients, you know, they would first come into my office, like just, you know, kind of at the end of their rope, no energy, felt really bad gaining weight, like everything was, you know, kind of falling apart. And I would start them on some hormones and I would get their, you know, dialed in with lifestyle, nutrition, all that stuff. And then they would come back, you know, three or four months later, and they'd be like, oh, my gosh, I'm feeling so much better. My energy is so much better. And now can you help me with my sex life? And they would ask about help with sex or skin. And so I started looking at both, kind of like sexual health, skin health, you know, all of these things. And how, how can we approach those from a different perspective? Not the way that the urologists do or the dermatologist, but like, how can we look at sort of whole body health and approach that? And so I became interested in sexual health and I, I started getting asked to speak about it because I was pretty comfortable with the topic and I enjoyed it. And so it's, it's really funny. That's the thing I've spoken, you know, the most about, like on stages around the world is kind of the link between sexual health and longevity and why it's worth, you know, talking about sexual health, you know, for everybody.

And I mean, you can tell me if I'm wrong, but I would think that sexual health and longevity are strongly tied to one another.

Yes, yes.

What is the connection there?

Well, they're very strongly tied. You know, we can't say necessarily that having a lot of sex will make you live forever, but we can say that there is a very strong association between being sexually active and living a long time. There have been multiple studies now, three or four different studies all over the world that have basically shown the same thing. Men and women who have sex at least once a week have a 50% lower all cause mortality rate compared to those who are not having sex. And it's this association, it's not causation. But I think to be sexually healthy, to be having sex with your partner, you have to have a partner, you have to have social connection, and you also have to have, you know, be physically healthy enough to do it as well as emotionally and mentally healthy enough to do it, to do that and not be distracted. So there's a lot of things that play into being sexually healthy. And so I think when all those things line up, then it makes sense that you would probably live a long term.

Yeah. I'm curious, and maybe this is not a question you want to answer, but Dave Asprey talks about limiting ejaculation. Do you know what that's about and why he says that and why there would be. Because it seems counterintuitive. But yeah, I'm just curious.

Yeah, I've had discussions with Dave about this. We definitely have different viewpoints on this. He is working off some, some Taoist beliefs from, from many, many, you know, centuries ago that basically said, you know, as you get older, you should be limiting ejaculation. There's a whole formula for it. But I mean, the truth is there's no, there's no actual science for that. And in fact, the, the best science we have shows that in older men over the age of 50, having frequent ejaculation is going to decreases prostate cancer risk or at least associated with decreased risk. So I think that we have very different views on that. I think there's no harm in ejaculating. There's certainly no harm in having orgasms and having sex. So go forth.

So you don't think it would have a negative effect on aging or longevity or anything like that? There doesn't seem to be any. Any truth or validity or science behind that.

There is not. And there's actually what people also say, if you. Some people, and Dave has been one of them, but they say that if you have sex, very often you're decreasing your testosterone production and that's bad for you. But the studies on that are actually very weak. One of them was recalled because the science was so bad. And we have studies in the other direction as well. So, I mean, the truth of it is it doesn't have a big effect on hormones. It doesn't have a big effect on athletic performance to have sex or not have sex. And we really don't have any studies that show that you should be retaining your semen for any good reason. If it makes you feel better, then great, do it. But there's not a lot of science behind it thus far.

Yeah. And I think Anna Kabeca would say quite the opposite in that, you know, each time you have sex, you release oxytocin, which we know is a major longevity hormone.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Right.

Oxytocin, which decreases cortisol levels, which of course your stress hormones. There's studies on being sexually active. It reduces your blood pressure, reduces your pain threshold or improves your pain threshold, improves your immune system, helps you sleep better. Like, there's a whole lot of benefits as long as obviously it's a healthy sexual relationship, but it has to be. Someone help.

Yes, of course, of course.

Yeah. But I think that there's a lot of benefits if. If it's the. If it's the right person that you're with.

So speaking of sexual health, your approach to sexual health is very interesting, very unique, and I would love for you to talk about your full body stem cell makeover, which I'm both dying to try and cringe every single time I think about it. And this coming from a surgeon is a lot. It's having a lot of impact on me. And I'm so torn between. I want to do it, I'm terrified. I want to do it, I'm terrified.

So, yeah, I mean, the. So I have a. I have a lot of approaches, sexual health, but one of them is doing these procedures. The full body stem cell makeover is a procedure that I do with my. With my business partner, Dr. Harry Adelson here in Park City, Utah. And basically we. We put you to sleep. We have an anesthesiologist there, put you to sleep, moderate sedation. And then we inject stem cells. My partner injects them all down, all down your neck and back in Every major joint in your body. And then I do facial injections, microneedling of the face and neck, scalp injections for hair restoration, and then sexual injections as well. So we basically hit the entire body in about an hour procedure. We wake you up and that's it. It's pretty great, isn't it?

Didn't Hyman come and do this and record it on the podcast?

Yeah, he's, he's been.

And that was years ago.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I'm, I, this is how long I've been thinking about this.

Yeah, it's a great procedure. I mean, it is, it is a full, it is head to toe, full, full deal. And you'd think that you'd be really sore afterwards or have a hard time, you know, like, it's a lot of injections, but, but most people feel great. I mean, you know, you're a little sore here and there if you have like joint pain beforehand. But it is amazing how anti inflammatory these, these products, these biologics that we're using are and how fast people bounce.

Back and then what are the products?

So we can, there's a couple different options. We can use your own cells either from bone marrow or fat. We can do like a little mini lipo aspiration, or we can use placental products that come from a lab where the tissue's donated from full term healthy deliveries. And we can get some of the different components of that placental tissues.

Okay. Are there benefits to using that over your own stem cells? And like, are there age restrictions? Like, am I too old? Did I miss the window?

That's a great question. And you know, we, honestly, we don't really know. There's never have been a head to head comparison between those, you know, the two types of cells. What we think is as you get older, we don't know what age, but you know, older, older stem cells are obviously not as good as younger stem cells. So probably in older folks. And it makes sense to use someone else's stem cells, umbilical cells, etc. But also even younger people sometimes will use umbilical cells because it's a lot easier. There's no bone marrow aspiration, there's no liposuction. It's a much faster procedure. And you're getting these, these cells and tissues that are just, you know, they're very young. So I think that there's a case to be made for both. And a lot of it's personal preference. Yeah.

And you're actually injecting the sexual organs, right?

Yes, yes. Yep. We. I inject the kind of upper anterior vaginal wall underneath the urethra, kind of in the G spot area, as well as the clitoris in women. So you're always happy that you're asleep for that?

Yes.

And then part of why I cringe.

And what I'm afraid of. I know because I picture it.

Yes. Oh, yes. Well, I will tell you. I knew.

I knew it was under general anesthesia. I always knew that.

Yeah, you're asleep.

It's like when you know too much.

Right. Well, when I first learned this procedure, which was about 10 years ago to do these injections, it was a group of other doctors. We were all learning, like maybe six or seven of us. We're all learning, and we had to practice on each other. And when it was my turn, the numbing. They didn't give me enough numbing. Medicine didn't last. And so basically it was injections without numbing in four front of like, five or six other doctors who are watching this procedure.

Oh, my God.

It was very painful.

No, that's horrible. I can't even imagine.

I know.

I can't even imagine. Oh, my God.

I know. That's how you learn, though. It's how at the time, there wasn't really another way to learn. You had to just learn from other people.

Yeah. And I guess part of this is that you need to overcome these misconceptions that sex stops with procreation. Because if sex stops with procreation, that that's a really terrible thing. Mentally, physically, everything.

Yeah. I think it's important to just to differentiate between reproductive health and sexual health, because they're actually two different things, like you said. I mean, being sexually healthy does. Is not just about being able to reproduce. Some people don't ever want to reproduce, and. But you still want to be able to have sex and enjoy it and have a close relationship and intimacy and all of. And I think also that the same thing can be said about, you know, hormonal health is obviously different than just reproductive health. So there's a lot of things in there, I think, that we just. People don't think about until you start to. You get to that point in your own life and you're like, oh, I can't have any kids anymore, but I still want to be able to have sex. I still want to be able to be close to my partner.

Yeah. So you said this is one of the ways that you help people to be sexually healthy. What are the other kinds of things that you're talking about to either preserve, restore sexual health. Because most people don't even come for help about these things until they have significant dysfunction in that area.

That's true. And I mean, the truth is, you know, about 40% of women at any given time, any age, complain of, if you ask them appropriately, complain of sexual dysfunction in some capacity. So whether that's low libido, arousal problems, orgasmic problems, but 40% of women have, you know, sexual problems that bother them. And so I think it is a big problem.

But women especially all ages, it's all ages.

It certainly is worse around the, that is kind of looking at all women, but that's especially in the perimenopause, menopause transition and later. So it definitely gets worse at menopause. We see a big drop off there. So, you know, I think there's a couple of different things I think about. I think about sort of mental emotional health for sure. And you know, what's happening else in your life, your stress levels, how can we, how can we reduce those? Obviously, if there's past traumas, then I recommend that you get referred out and see a, you know, a coach or a therapist. But there's a lot of technologies out there that can help with just stress reduction. There's so much stress in their day and to do lists and things. And I think that, that, you know, plays a big part in being interested in, you know, even considering sex. And then the second piece of it is the hormones, you know, making sure we've optimized. Estrogen, progesterone, testosterone as well is important, especially as you get to be, you know, 35 or 40 with perimenopause and then eventually menopause. And then after that I look at other technologies like, you know, intravaginal red light therapy or low intensity shockwave therapy are different things that we can use, you know, at or near the pelvic floor to improve blood flow and sensation and, and with kind of the cells to repair as well.

Now you talk a lot about hormones, hormone replacement, whether or not there's a tie to breast cancer. My audience is very interested in this topic. So can we talk about that and can we put some of this nonsense to rest once and for all?

Yes. And I would love to hear your opinions too, because you get to, you get to see it from the other side also.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's first start off with do hormones cause breast cancer?

Hormone therapy, like hormone replacement therapy, estrogen specifically does not cause breast cancer, at least not as we've seen in the 10 or so randomized controlled trials that have been done where they give women estrogen and follow them for a number of years, actually, in those studies, they found a 23% reduced rate of breast cancer when taking estrogen.

Yeah, and that's exactly what I talk to people about, is that when we actually look at the data that there is a protective effect of estrogen. And that makes a lot of sense because we know what estrogen does in the body and it does have a protective effect in the body. Right. And I think that certainly there are xenoestrogens, there are synthetic compounds in our environment which have become more and more ubiquitous. They're everywhere. And we are definitely encountering more of these xenoestrogens than ever than ever, exponentially more than ever. Because maybe when, you know, we were maybe 20 years ago, a couple of these existed. But you know, growing up, we didn't have plastic bottles. Right. At least I didn't. I'm older than you are.

No, no, I didn't either.

You know, we didn't have plastic bottles and, you know, everything wasn't fragranced and everything wasn't wrapped in plastic and delivered in plastic. And there was no nonstick and there was no, you know, like we didn't have all of these chemicals all the time. And it's demonstrated everywhere when you look at, there's all these posts now of like the ingredients in bread 20 years ago and the ingredients in bread now. Right, right. So and it's, it's literally everything and it's affecting everything. And I think that those compounds are having estrogenic effects, but not representing estrogen. And I think that's where it gets so confusing for people. I think that that is compounded with the fact that the pharmaceutical companies created a narrative in order to sell anti hormonal drugs in the breast cancer population. And that narrative is very simplistic. It's easy to understand, it's seemingly logical. And so it caught on. Right. It just doesn't happen to be true. Estrogen does not cause breast cancer, and tamoxifen is a synthetic estrogen. So if you believe that estrogen causes breast cancer, why would estrogen then be the solution?

Yeah, I agree. I think, I think there's, yeah, there's so many other things. And we know estrogen therapy, when you take it, you know, in menopause, it helps your metabolic health so much, you know, improves your visceral fat and improves your blood sugar and, you know, improves your blood pressure, like all of these metabolic things. And many of those things are Associated, you know, with breast cancer. We know that a lot of visceral fat leads to inflammation, which is, can worsen your risk of, of heart disease and various cancers. So it does make sense when you understand the many ways that estrogen works in the body, that it would be beneficial potentially for various cancers. But I do think that it's very difficult for people to a get past the Women's health initiative from 2002, when they came out with the big headlines and scared people and said hrt causes cancer. A lot of them don't realize that, you know, that was the synthetic progesterone that was in there. That probably contributed to the very slight, still increased relative risk of cancer. And it's very hard for people to understand, well, how come? If you have an estrogen receptor positive cancer, why do they treat it by taking away estrogen? That must mean that estrogen caused that cancer.

It's interesting. We both came back from a conference just now that was based on metabolic health, and that was the focus of this conference. Is everyone talking about metabolic health from different perspectives? And from my perspective, I spoke about metabolic health and its effect on breast cancer. And with every disturbance in your metabolic health, which is demonstrated as an increased waist to hip ratio, so more abdominal adiposity or more abdominal fat, an elevation in your blood pressure, an elevation in your lipids, specifically elevated triglycerides and low HDL and elevated blood sugar, elevated insulin resistance. With each one of these metabolic factors being present, your risk of getting breast cancer goes up, your risk of having more aggressive disease goes up, your risk of disease recurrence goes up, your risk of metastasis goes up, and your likelihood of survival goes down. And what I proposed at this conference, truthfully, was that I think we should be screening for metabolic disease with the same fervor that we're screening for breast cancer. Because if we did that instead, we could decrease the incidence of breast cancer significantly. And my guess is we would also decrease the significance of sexual dysfunction.

Absolutely. I mean, and not to mention that those things all obviously play into cardiovascular disease and heart disease, and that one in three women die of heart disease, that is the number one killer of women and men. And many more women die of heart disease of all ages, all ages of women, many more die of heart disease than breast cancer or any kind of cancer. So if you can get a hold of the metabolic factors and get those in mind, then you're knocking out heart disease and potentially different kinds of cancer, dementia, kind of all the things.

Yeah, yeah. Women die of heart Disease exponentially more than breast cancer at every age past the age of 30. And I think women rarely think about heart disease in women in their 30s, but it's there and it's real. And yet breast cancer gets so much more attention.

It does.

So much more attention. And if we would insist instead focus our attention on metabolic health, this world would be a far different place. So I know that you're talking to people about hormonal health. What are the other kinds of. Where are your other touch points? How else are you helping people with longevity to live their best lives and at the same time it enhances their sexual health?

I mean, we always start with the foundations, of course. You know, making sure that you're moving, exercising, lifting heavy weights, that you're eating properly, which is different for everyone, for the most part, you know, getting enough protein and a fiber and then sleep is a big one. I Learned as an ER doctor that living for 15 years, I'm sure you as a surgeon living for 15 years with minimal sleep and then changing over to a job where I could sleep made all the difference. All of a sudden I lost weight, which was great. I made better choices. I better exercise more. So sleep is a big one. So working on all of the foundational stuff is first hormones, and then we have a lot of other advanced therapies, different kinds of peptides we can use for people. We have various access to various advanced diagnostics to screen for things, screen for cancers or screen for heart disease, brain dysfunction, things like that. So in my clinic, I have a couple of clinics, but the one which opened in Austin, called humanot, we do this kind of advanced assessment for everyone because we're finding that a lot of people, even people who are pretty young, in their 20s or 30s, have some kind of dysfunction, cardiovascular disease or osteoporosis or these kinds of things. And if we can screen for it, we can catch it early, which is really, right now, the best way to live a long time is to prevent the diseases that would otherwise kill you.

You mentioned peptides in there. And this conference that we just left a 4m, there was a lot of focus on a particular peptide at this conference. And I think that more than half of the people either spoke about it or mentioned it. So I would love your take on the PGL1 drugs or peptides. And what do you think the future of that is?

Yeah, the GLP ones, I assume.

GLP ones, yeah.

Sorry, no, I'm. I'm a big fan of the GLP ones.

Speaking of no sleep, I'm on a week of no sleep.

That's okay. Yeah, exactly. You need to go get some sleep.

I do.

So that's like, you know, Ozempic, Semaglutide, Tirzepatide, all those, those medications we've been seeing, talking about these for years now and certainly the longevity community, because they are, they do have so many benefits outside of just weight loss. Certainly the weight loss also causes a lot of benefits, but there are all these anti inflammatory benefits and brain benefits and even muscle and bone benefits that we're starting to see in studies. So I think that those drugs are fantastic if used properly and you know, you can use them at smaller doses, you know, the microdosing kind of doses where you're getting some of the benefits without necessarily having as many side effects or even weight loss if you don't want it. So those are, those are great. I think that the SGLT2 inhibitors are also a very important drug class that we're starting to talk about a lot in longevity. Those are also diabetes medications that also have these kind of systemic positive benefits that seem to be like longevity kind of drugs if we repurpose them.

And what concerns about, do you have about these?

So with the GLP1s, the biggest problem people see is too much muscle loss. If you're losing weight too fast, that then it can cause muscle loss. Of course, and that's true with any kind of rapid weight loss. It's not the drugs themselves that are the problem, it's just that you're losing, if you're losing many pounds a week, you know, four pounds a week or five pounds a week, you're going to lose muscle too. So it is very important to go slow with the weight loss and then to prioritize strength training and hydration and you know, muscle building, maybe even anabolic compounds like testosterone or, or other peptides so that you can maintain muscle mass with that. Yeah.

And it's important to note the thing that you brought up, which is rapid weight loss will result in fat loss and muscle loss. Whether you're doing it with the GLP1s or whether you're doing it on a fast or however you're doing it. When you lose weight, you're always going to lose fat and muscle. It's not, there's no way to exclusively lose fat. But I think that it's very important to note how you're doing it, that you're being properly monitored and that you are doing the things along with it, the lifestyle things along with it. And I think that that's what most of us have objected to is, you know, especially in the pediatric population, you can't just put these kids on these medicines and not teach them how to move and how to eat. Yeah, you can't.

Absolutely.

You can't.

Well, and they just come back when, when they stop them. Like we know that if you don't implement the appropriate lifestyle changes, then as soon as you stop the drugs, the weight will come back. So it is a, it's a learning opportunity for sure to teach people how to, to be healthy. As they're losing weight, they're becoming more motivated, they're excited and then to use that as a, a launch point to continue the healthy lifestyle.

But it does appear that there are significant anti inflammatory effects. And we're seeing this not in the diabetes population, but we're seeing these in the population of people that you mentioned are microdosing. And it's not necessarily for weight loss, it's for all the other benefits that, that we're seeing across the board. And I know that there aren't studies yet in cancer, but cancer is so often associated with metabolic dysfunction that maybe this is a way to address the metabolic dysfunction and restore balance in these people. So that even though you're not, I mean, no matter what, unless you're using conventional therapies like chemotherapy, all this stuff that I'm doing, I'm not treating the cancer, I'm treating the person in front of me and helping them to restore their health. Because I think that that's the battle in everyone. The tumor is not the problem. The tumor is the symptom of the problem.

Absolutely. Yeah. I think it all goes back to metabolic health. I would not at all be surprised if the GLP1AGO agonists, you know, reduce cancer risk. I think that would probably. It makes total sense. We know it helps your brain and your heart and your liver and, you know, multiple other organs.

So let's talk about something else that's pretty controversial and that's supplements, because there's a zillion of them out there and how do you feel about them? Where do you think their role is and how do you advise, advise people to determine what they should be doing and what they should be supplementing?

Yeah, it's funny, you know, for years, when, of course, when I was an ER doctor and even shortly after I was pretty opposed to supplements, I thought they were silly. And you know, if they were real drugs, they'd be real drugs. Like if they really worked, they'd be, you know, FDA approved. Drugs. But then I spent a lot of time in the last decade learning about the different ones. And I actually have a supplement company now that's focused on female health and longevity called Hopbox. And the reason I did that was because I was always, you know, looking at the research and watching the podcast and reading the articles and trying to figure out, like, what are the things that. That most women are not getting enough of that could. That maybe isn't in food, but that could potentially slow down some of the negative things that happen with aging, you know, at the cellular level. So I picked a bunch of ingredients that I thought were the most, you know, sort of beneficial for most people. I don't think that everyone needs a bunch of supplements, but I do think that with our food supply, you know, being lower in nutrients, with our life being so stressful, and all the things that are around us, all the toxins, all the things that there, there is a place for supplements as long as, you know, your doctor knows kind of what you're doing and where you're getting them from.

Yeah, well, I would say that most doctors don't know what people are doing, understand what people are doing, or even understand what people need. So are there some supplements for you that are like, absolutely, positively, people need these.

I'm a big fan of berberine and dihydroberberine, and not for everyone necessarily, but I, I do think it's fantastic for metabolic health. We have a lot of research on it for reducing blood sugar, but also reducing inflammation. And it has, you know, can help your lipids as well. So it has multiple benefits. And I think that's a great one.

It's.

It's pretty safe for most people. I mean, everyone should be on vitamin D if they don't get enough sun. Vitamin D3 with K2 for bones and heart health, for sure. I love magnesium for almost anyone. I think most of us are low in that it's great for helping sleep if you take, like the glycinate form. So those are some of the, you know, I think some kind of Omega Omega 3 fatty acid like EPA, DHA combo, these are all fairly standard. And then I also love creatine for women especially, because I think that we don't think about it, but it's great for muscle building, but also for brain health.

And when do women start to really need creatine? When does creatine production. Because we make our own, right? When does creatine production really drop off?

I don't know when it drops off. I mean, I see It, I think it's, I find it's more helpful for women over 40 than younger women. But I don't know exactly if that's just something I'm seeing in my patients or if that actually fits with the actual science.

Yeah, I'm seeing the same thing. So I think that tracks.

Yeah.

I would love it if you would address how you started off this statement about supplements. And I will say that for my part, I had the same exact view about supplements. Like you should, if you were eating a proper diet, you should be able to get everything from your diet. It's not true anymore. It's impossible to get everything from your diet. But why don't you address the why aren't. If they, if supplements were needed or correct or whatever you want to legitimate why aren't they FDA approved drugs? Would you like to tackle that?

I mean, I think that the reason. There's a couple of reasons. One of them is that these are, you know, these are generic, readily available compounds. And in order to take a generic compound through the FDA regulatory process, you're looking at about a billion dollars. Like it's really expensive to go all the way through the phase one, two, three trials and, you know, do all the things. And there's really, you know, unless someone owns that ingredient, a pharmaceutical company, there's no reason for them to do that. Obviously they have to own the ingredients so they can make money on the other end. And a lot of these things, like berberine for instance, is no one owns it. And so who's going to pay that money to go through the hundreds of millions of dollars to get through that process? So I think a lot of it's just money. Just, it's hard to get these studies done. Certainly we have studies, but a lot of them are observational studies or they're, you know, they're not placebo controlled. So I do agree that the evidence for supplements is not as strong as it is for many drugs because we don't have, we don't have the money to pour into a lot of these ingredients that the drug companies do. Yeah.

And I think that, you know, if human concern was really our standard, then there would be ways to trial these things in a legitimate arena. But the problem is, as you said, they, they're not going to study anything that they can't own and eventually profit from. And if it takes $1 billion to get a product approved and to market, then they expect to make 10x on that. Right. So they expect to be able to make $10 billion and I don't think for most of these things, you cannot trademark a molecule of nature. And most of these things are molecules of nature. And so there is no. Now, I do think that the pharmaceutical company got lies to the supplement industry and lobbied to maybe get some restriction on who can and who can't sell supplements. So I think that that was something that was tricky. I also, we attended an event on Sunday night. We attended the, the real. The release of the Biohack Yourself documentary for Prime Video, for Amazon Prime Video. And also some of the stars of the upcoming documentary Shield were there. You were there. I was there. A bunch of our colleagues were there. And there was a lot of energy and excitement in the room about the MAGA movement and about RFK coming in and running hhs. And I know for my part, I'm very excited about that and very hopeful that there will be changes with this, with this administration that are unprecedented. But I'm curious to hear what you think.

Yeah, I'm hopeful. I have kind of mixed feelings, honestly, because I'm hopeful because I do think that there's the readiness to look at some of these stem cell therapy and supplements and lifestyle and some of these things that aren't talked about enough in traditional medicine or the administration. So I'm excited about that part of it. This idea that your willingness to look at other therapies besides kind of the big pharmaceutical options. I'm a little nervous because I also, you know, I work in the women's health space, as I know you do too. And so I do get nervous about some of the potential changes and policies in women's health. I just want to make sure we were protecting women, you know, at any age, whether they're pregnant, babies, you know, all the different things along the way. So I think that wealth is, see, it's going to be super interesting. But I am hopeful about the whole thing.

Yeah, me too. And I think that there was a lot of excitement in that room and a lot of people in that room on Sunday, they're going to be instrumental in what happens over the next four years. And I mean, I know at least my part that I've been, I've been asked to help to shape some policy with regard to breast cancer or screening. So this is really exciting. And I, I am more hopeful than I have ever been in the past. And you know, we look at people like Casey Means. I mean, she's having a moment and, and being heard. And you know, Mark Hyman is all always a voice out there and he's he's been to D.C. and I think that now more than ever, that I think these people who didn't have a say and didn't have a vote before are now being heard. Yeah, I hear you. About your concerns for protection of women's rights all along the life spectrum. I hear you. I don't think that that part is a focus of this immigration administration. And I do think that this administration wants to make this, this population healthier because we are not doing a good job right now. Our obesity rates, I think, are one in three.

Yeah, I think last I heard it was like 70% or so. I mean, I was blown away. The last numbers I heard.

Yeah, yeah, 70% is overweight, I think. And, and then I think obese is, is one in three adults, which, if one in three adults are obese, these are terrifying statistics. Terrifying, absolutely. And, and it goes for our children too. And I'm sure as an ER doc, like we see chronic diseases in children that were unheard of, unheard of when I, when I was training, unheard of. And it's starting from the very beginning with these pregnant mothers who are not healthy and they give birth to children who are not healthy. And it just carries through. And it's not a genetic thing. It is. These children are living the same lives as their parents and living in the same environment as their parents and eating like their parents. And it's not about blame or shame. And I realize that there are food deserts and there are real challenges to being healthy in a lot of spaces. I also think that we have put our support and our backing and our financial attention to areas that promote sickness rather than promote health. And I think if we were subsidizing broccoli instead of subsidizing corn and wheat and soy, it would be a different story. And if we valued health the way that we value sickness, it would be a different story. Because the truth is that right now the only way doctors get paid is if you're sick. The only way that hospitals get paid is if you're sick. So how can we value something that has no value in our society?

I think that's so true. I think that our healthcare system is very good at acute traumas and trying to kind of stop you from dying when you get to the end of a chronic disease, like pull you back from the edge over and over again. But we are very bad at preventing diseases. And a lot of it is because it takes a lot of time. It takes much more time and energy on the physicians part, on the clinic's part to help people to prevent diseases than it does to kind of band aid them and send them on their way. Like, you know, this is why a lot of traditional doctors who have gone into this kind of medicine that we're doing, you know, are not taking insurance anymore. And it's not because we don't want. You know, we. It's really just because we want to spend time with our patients, to actually educate them. Education is such a big part of this. I remember when I was an ER doctor, I had this. This. This child who was brought in by his mom, and he had some kind of complaint, belly pain or something, and he was probably like 6 years old. And I asked the mom, you know, how's he been eating and does he eat healthy food? And she's like, oh, yeah, he has vegetables every day. And I was like, oh, great. What kind of vegetables? And she's like, well, he eats potato chips all day. And she really thought that was a vegetable. I mean, she really, like. She was just like this. It says potato mentioned a potato is a vegetable, so this must be healthy. And so I think a lot of it's also just education and getting out there in front of people and saying, you actually have a lot of power, but you have to take some steps to help make yourself and your family healthier.

I mean, my best friend, God love her, for many, many years, used ketchup as her vegetable. So I know I've taken a lot of your time, and I know that we need to wrap. I want you to just tell people, like, what can they aspire to? What should it all look like? And what can you expect if you kind of set your sights? Like, what's the pie in the sky? Potential. Human potential?

Hmm. That's a great question. You know, I think that what you can aspire to is feeling good every single day, feeling excited, having a purpose, and going out and living your purpose. And I think that even that it doesn't sound like a lot, but that is such a big deal. To feel great, to not have pain, to have energy, to not be too fatigued, you know, to have your mood be up, not down, and to feel like you are contributing to the world in the way that you want to contribute.

I love that you said that because I think that living with purpose is probably one of the biggest drivers of longevity. Because when we look at those blue zones, you know, they're not like us in our society. They don't throw away their elders. Their elders are not useless. Their elders are the wise people. They serve great purpose. And they live in multi generational houses where, where the, those elders, they're, they're wise and they serve great purpose and they are providing for their family, they're providing for their community. They are an important, integral part of that community. And when you are living with purpose that is directly tied to longevity. It's one of the things that I talk to people with breast cancer about is if you want to live, what do you want to live for? What are you living for? And everyone's purpose is entirely different. And I get it. And you don't have to be a doctor, you don't have to save the world, but you do have to live with purpose because that's really where the joy comes from.

Yeah, absolutely agree, Dr. Killen.

Where can people find you?

So I'm pretty active on Instagram, as you know, Dr. Amy B. Killen. And then I have the same, I'm also on all the other social platforms as well. My websites are Dr. Abkillen.com and then also Hopbox. H O P B O X Life is my supplement company. And then humanot, like astronoth.com is my clinic, Longevity Clinic franchise that we just opened in Austin, Texas.

All right, and is B your middle name or is Amy B. Killen like you be Killen?

No, it is my middle name. It's Amy B. A Killen. But I like to, I said that worked out really well. Like Amy B. Killen in the house. Like, you know, I like to do that. I love it.

That is your rapper name. That's amazing.

Yeah.

Well, thank you so much for joining us today for giving your beautiful insight into what is possible. Because we should all be living with joy and all living, be living with connection. And part of that connection, an integral part of that connection is sexual health, is how you're connecting with your significant other. And we need to have that joy in our lives because that's what's keeping us young and that's what's contributing to longevity. So thank you so much for the work that you do. You are amazing. I am a huge, huge, huge super fan. Right? Like here's my girl crush coming out. Huge super fan. And I, I just, I love everything about it. So thank you so much. And one of these days I'm gonna get my, my courage up and I'm gonna come visit you and get that head to toe workout done.

Amazing. Well, thanks so much for having this. It's been really fun.

My pleasure. If you enjoyed this, please like it, share it. Give us a comment. Send it to someone you love. And know that I will be back next week. Same time, same place.

Dutch.

Jen. Bye for now.