The Truth about DCIS and Breast Cancer

Foreign. Welcome to the Keeping abreast podcast with Dr. Jen. I have been listening. I hear what you're saying, and people are asking for survivor stories, and do I have one for you. Today we are going to talk about the controversial topic of dcis, and I am delighted to have Donna Pinto here to share her story, to share her experience, and to share the inspirational work that she's done. So, Donna, welcome.

Well, thank you so much, Dr. Chen. It is truly a blessing to speak with you. When I first found you a little while ago, probably a couple months ago, when you were speaking with Chris work, my thoughts were, holy hallelujah. Someone from the inside that gets this whole picture of what I've been trying to convey and talk about and put out there in my groups and in the world. Just a lot of what you're talking about, we're just in alignment on so many levels, and it's really, really needed. So thank you for the work you're doing.

Wow.

I understand it. It's.

Yeah, you sure do. You know, this is a bug that bites you that you don't get rid of it. Right. And once you are immersed in this world, all you want to do is make it better. And I know. I know you know that. So tell us how you got immersed in this world. Because, like me, most people don't come in this world willingly or wantingly. Right. We're placed there.

Yep. I kind of feel like sometimes I say it was. It was like the Moses experience. Like, I didn't ask for this job of, you know, it's been 14 years now for me. I've become a patient advocate and created websites and Facebook groups to try and help this controversy, debate, and dilemma the best I can. But how. It all started for me. So I. I thought I was pretty healthy, and I was very happy. And a friend of mine had recently died of cervical cancer, and I thought, you know, and it was crushing, the best thing that I could do. Also, my grandmother died very young of breast cancer. So I was aware of it, and, you know, I was just hearing the messages, and my doctor told me to start mammograms at age 40. And I was a good patient, and I, you know, I was really healthy. But I went in for my annual mammogram. I started at 40, and four years into it, at age 44, just a few months after my best friend from college died, I got this diagnosis that was very strange called ductal carcinoma in situ dcis. Now, I never heard of this before, and the way it was Explained to me, very kind of matter of fact and quickly by a nurse. She said it's really pre cancer, but we treat it all like it's invasive cancer. So your options are partial mastectomy and seven weeks of daily radiation or a mastectomy. And this is when I just completely shut down. Like that was shocking to me, beyond shocking to hear that. And it was also the incongruency of what she had just told me. Not really cancer, pre cancer. But then she went into this rant about, you need to go see a medical oncologist, a radiation oncologist, have an MRI and, and see the nurse navigator. So I was just like spun around like I was playing, you know, pin the tail on the donkey.

And it's really shocking, right, because on the one hand they're trying, they're telling you it's not cancer, and on the other hand they're telling you that it's treated just like cancer. And, you know, it's sad because when I was training is just after the studies of DCIs were, were going on and you know, originally we know about DCIS from historical data because in the 80s and 90s, when it was seen on biopsy, it was not treated, it was observed. And so the reason that we know what DCIS is and what DCIS does is because we've seen the natural history of it, because we've identified it on biopsy and then not treated it. And 50% of the time people will go on to develop invasive disease, and 50% of the time they will not. There was a decision that was made that we would treat 100% of people in order to avoid the 50% from going on to have invasive disease. While I understand that reasoning, why we didn't give thought to, well, who's going to become invasive and who's not, and can we stop that process there? Can we see what's happening there and take stock in that person and where they are in their position, station whatever you want to call it in life and help them to get to a better place. But there's no thought about that in our conventional medical system. And I was guilty as can be of being in that place for 20 years. So, like, those words that you said, it's not cancer, but we're going to treat it like cancer anyway. I said that those words thousands of times, thousands of times.

And because it's the standard of care and that's the guidelines, so it makes sense. It's not that doctors are doing anything wrong. It's they're following what the guidelines are to be safe and, you know, just in case and. But I think.

And a little bit of cya, right?

Of course, yes.

A little bit of cya.

Intuitively, I knew this. There was something wrong with this. And so I started. You know, of course, like most people, you go to Dr. Google when you get a diagnosis. And lucky for me, two days after this, an article came out in Medscape called Take carcinoma out of DCIS and Ease off treatment. And it was featuring the top doctors who were knowledgeable and wise and caring for women with DCIS for many years, like Dr. Laura Esterman and Dr. Ann Partridge. And I just totally aligned with that. And so I brought that article to my doctor, and she gave me, you know, the. Yeah, the same spiel about 50% of doctors will think this way. And, you know, I just. She said to me, I wouldn't wait until it's not treatable. So there was a lot of fear, inspired messaging, a lot of fear, which.

Unfortunately, is pervasive across the medical system. It's not just in cancer. It's in everything. Right? Operate now, because it could get worse. And, you know, that reasoning is used all the time. Take this drug. That's fear is. Is one of the biggest tools in conventional medicine, Right?

So now this article was talking about active surveillance, which is what they were doing with prostate cancer. And I thought, well, this is what I want to do. Right away, I thought, bill, I want to just. You know, sometimes it's called watch and wait. So my doctor really wasn't that supportive, so I kind of was on my own. And the other thing that happened for me, thankfully, was my friend, my very dear friend, who was like a soul sister to. I went home that evening when I was given the diagnosis, and I put out an email to friends and family with good news, bad news, good news caught early. Stage zero, what they're calling it. But the. The bad news is the treatments are very aggressive, and I got a lot of great support from friends and family. But my friend Adriana, who's from Colombia, she called me up and she said, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're not doing these invasive treatments, but this isn't even cancer. I want to explain to you about how the body heals and works from the inside out. So. So I went over to her house the next day, and that was my crash course, the beginning of my crash course and the healing from the inside out. And she said to me, if you put your MRI off for a month, I guarantee it will be all clear if you do everything I say. So I did this radical detox. I, you know, I did everything. I was a great student, great patient for her. And the MRI was clear one month later. But the doctor, my doctor still was insisting on surgery, which really made no sense at that point. And I had all I had a month long of research now following Dr. Esserman and this controversy and finding out about over treatment. So I was really emboldened. Not only did the MRI show up clear, but I had this, like chicken skin on the back of my arms. I thought it was hereditary. I had an ongoing fungal infection on my foot, like an athlete's foot and eczema. And all of that cleared up because, like I said, I was vegetarian for many years, but I. But this, I gave up dairy, alcohol, coffee, sugar. You know, just things that were Patsons like 95, 99, healthier than most people. Exercising every day, doing yoga. You know, I kind of was the picture of health already, but I didn't know about this acid alkaline balance. So she taught me a lot of these things and she just kind of pointed me in a direction. Then I started watching all the films and videos and I found, you know, people like Chris Work. I followed him and I was like, hardcore, I'm going to study nutrition. And that's what I did. So then I got certified as a nutritionist, and I've just focused on the holistic health aspect. And that became my, my. Rather than being in fear, I was proactive. And I also was looking at the imaging problem, which I know you've talked about. And I'm like, none of this makes sense. Like, why are we still doing these things? When there is information, there is great data and research. And I just became an investigator. I was like the private eye detective. And like, you know, if. If you talk about these problems within the medical industry, you do get a lot of backlash. Like you're crazy or, you know, there. It was like heresy, like talking about the downsides of mammography. I. I learned real fast. And also active surveillance, nobody wanted to talk about that. And I got like banned from groups and I had to make my own groups. And that's why I made my own website, because I thought if there's not support out there for this, I have to be the change that I want to see, like Gandhi said. And so I just figured out how to make a website and I created Facebook groups. And it started with one group, but then, you know, it. It was like morphing. It always goes back to the very intense fear that's perpetuated not only from the doctors and the medical community, but then the patients in those groups can be very hardcore about regurgitating what their doctors are telling them. And the fear, oh, I wouldn't wait. People were comparing it to Steve Jobs. It just was complete disconnect from the reality of TCIs being a non invasive.

Yeah.

80% now they know four out of five may never become anything. It could be just harmless.

Yeah. So obviously the problem is in the name. Right. And that has to change. And I want you to know that you, if you're getting kicked out of groups, you're in very good company. People are so uncomfortable with the truth.

Yep.

They've been lied to for so long and they've been lying for so long that they believe they're on bullshit. And it's really unfortunate. It's really unfortunate. And I've been kicked out of several physician groups over the years because like I'm a truth seeker.

Yep.

Right. And you can't. I'm not buying the bullshit. I'm just not. And I'm calling it out.

Yeah.

And you know, I, I, it's astounding to me. I have like, I have these physician trolls, they troll my page and say that I'm providing misinformation and how can you deny that X rays cause cancer? A three year old knows that X rays cause cancer. It's as obvious as the nose on your face. And then they say, well, it's only a little radiation. It's only seven weeks of background radiation. Okay, it's seven weeks of background radiation. Focus then on your breast tissue. The breast tissue sensitive. It doesn't want seven weeks of background radiation. Once, twice, three, four times a year. Doesn't want it.

Right.

And then, you know, this whole concept of active surveillance, even that term bothers me because there's nothing active about what they're doing. They're basically saying, be, be your sitting duck self.

Yes.

Radiate you every six months. Don't do anything else. Don't change anything else. Don't help yourself. Just stay still and let me shoot you.

Yes.

You know, and it's crazy to me, people are so willing to accept that.

Yeah. Well, I have been trying to infiltrate the medical community. I'm working within the research and I'm there because I want to try to impress upon the doctors and the researchers who are involved with this that we can't just like sit back, like you said, a sitting duck, and then go and image in whatever capacity. Really. Because you're not changing anything at the root cause that could have created or is developing this or what could potentially progress from a non invasive to an invasive cancer. And so I've written blog posts. I'm sending it to Dr. Dean Ornish and Dr. Laura Esterman and the other doctors that I work with, like, begging them, like, at least to a study. Why isn't anyone studying someone like me? I've been doing this for 14 years. I never got invasive cancer. And I also stopped using the imaging that was creating the over diagnosis, which is mammography. I stopped in 20, 2011 because I got the bonk over the head. You know, how many times do you need to be bonked to get the scare? And when I understood over diagnosis, which is a very, very difficult concept for people, my dad was arguing with me. Donna, that's not even a word. Finally, it's been put into the national library of, of. Of medical terms now. Yeah, so this is what I write about. But it's like nobody gets this.

Well, that is the leg that, that mammography is standing on, right? There's. They're standing on that leg because to them, they will say that there's been a reduction in deaths of cancer, but the reduction that they're talking about is a percentage because they're screening more people and they're finding these meaningless subclinical lesions that would have never gone on to become anything clinically meaningful. And some of them, a percentage of them, are actually caused by repeated mammograms.

Exactly.

And then they're saying that they're curing these women, but these women would have never died of breast cancer. Their lesions would have never been clinically significant. And then you take that group of women and you treat them, and you double or triple their risk of getting heart disease, which is the real threat. The number one threat to a woman's life is heart disease. And then you take someone who is already vulnerable. As, you know, the older we get and the less circulating estrogen we have, the more damage happens to our blood vessels, the more damage that happens to our heart, the more damage that happens to our brain, the more damage that happens to our bones. And you take that person and then you radiate them, and they are even more susceptible to that damage, even more susceptible to that injury. And so we are. We are creating a lot of illness, we are creating a lot of morbidity, and there's no recognition of it. And in fact, people like me that speak out, people like the you that speak out, were criticized Yep. But when you look at the absolute number of women that die every year from breast cancer, it's 43,000. Right. So they are not impacting the bottom line at all. Because if they were, we would see less deaths from breast cancer. But we don't. All we see is over diagnosis and over treatment and taking, like taking credit for saving lives that didn't need to be saved. Right.

Yep. And the, the charities are part of the problem, the pink charities. And now we're also creating the emotional toll on these women. This is what I deal with every day. They're off the charts. And I will give out my phone number and I'll give my email and my text and it takes like sometimes a few months for women to just realize they're not going to die. Like, it's crazy. There's such a disconnect and my heart just goes out to all these women. I mean, it's like over 40 to 50,000 women a year that are in this over diagnosed bucket.

Yeah.

And even, even people that know me and know my website like that get a diagnosis or maybe get some call back or something, they don't even want to look at it because they just want to listen to the doctor. So the doctor is so valuable. This is why what you're doing, Dr. Jen, is so important because you have that credibility. If you're saying this because I'm, you know, I'm a patient advocate, but. And I have a story, but I'm not the credible expert that they need to hear it from. That's why we need the credible expert radiologist or someone that can give that alternative that we can trust. And I know that you're working on know new imaging, which is very, very exciting. I've just, you know, been waiting. I'm like, yeah, on the edge of my seat with this.

What state do you live in?

I live in California and San Diego. Oh, just near Beverly Hills. Yeah.

It's available to you, right?

Oh, I know, I know. I'm, you know, have to wait. I know. Yeah, I'll be going. Yeah, I'll be going. It's away.

So it's so interesting about the radiologist. I don't, I don't know how that's going to progress because there's so much unlearning that has to happen. I mean, they have, since the mammographic screening program was rolled out in the 1970s, they have genuinely believed that they were doing the right thing. And they continue to believe that they're doing the right thing. And I think it would be a really hard pill for them to swallow to think otherwise. So that. That's. It's so hard for them to think otherwise because, like, they really feel as if, oh, well, we're using this super safe modality and we're finding these cancers and we're saving lives. Like, they believe this. They genuinely believe it. And so I try not to respond too harshly when I'm trolled because, like, it questions their very existence. It questions what they've been doing with their life. It questions whether or not they. They're actually harming people instead of helping people. Right. So this is a very, very tough pill to swallow. And I get it. So, you know, I allow them a little bit of leeway. I don't allow them too much leeway because in the end, I have to tell the truth.

Right.

And I don't want my sympathy for the predicament that they're in to confuse the issue. Right. And the issue is that the X rays cause cancer and that they're the, you know, there, there is some element of they're not. They're dissociating from the truth.

Right, right.

Because they have to.

That's a good point. They're dissociating from the truth. And that's why the movement has to come from empowering the women. But it's a. It's also very, very difficult to. To convince people of this when they're being constantly bombarded with the messaging that early detection with mammography saves lives. So it's a constant, constant, constant. Even me, to this day, my doctor, my primary care will tell me every year, you know, you're due for your mammogram. I'm like, it should be in my record now that I don't do that, but they're required. So it's coming at women from every angle. And people look at me like I'm completely out of my mind when I say I don't use mammography.

Yeah, it's a checkbox for them. It's a checkbox for them.

Yeah. I put forth a lot of. You know, there's a great science writer who's written multiple articles on it's okay to opt out of mammography and all the studies that have been done, the downsides. I have a whole web page called by's, you know, talking about informed consent. I've tried from every angle to get this messaging across without creating this, you know, feud. I don't want to argue and fight with anyone. Just like, you know, I want people to Be informed just as you do. Like, yeah, it's our right, as, you know, informants. It's.

It's, you know, as you said, I mean, this is your Moses moment. And for those of you who are not familiar with that part of history, Moses was chosen by God. But Moses did not want that responsibility. And in fact, he questioned God's judgment in identifying him as the person. And he gave multiple, multiple reasons as to why he shouldn't do it. But in the end, he accepted that responsibility, and in the end, you have accepted yours. And you know that you're on a mission, and you know that this. This is what you were meant to do. I mean, you were given this voice in this platform for a reason, and you won't convince everyone, just like I won't convince everyone. Yeah, but you still have to keep going because you know that you're on the right side of history and you know that you're doing the right thing. I do want to ask you about this radical detox because I think that people are very curious, because as we said before, active surveillance, to me means that you're actively doing things to improve your health, which is exactly what you did during that month. Right. It's not like you spent that month saying, gosh, I hope that the DCIS is gone by the next study. You actively did things, right?

Yes.

So tell us about that.

So, like I said, I was pretty healthy, but I was a vegetarian. And then my friend, you know, said, here. Here's what you're going to eliminate. Right. And that was the dairy and the coffee and the alcohol. And I wasn't excessive in any of these things by any means, but still, I took it. I basically ate like, a. Raw vegetables, mostly raw vegetables for a few weeks, and then we did, like, a weekend just juicing tonics and teaspoon. And, you know, it was like a month long. I think I lost, like, ten pounds. And people were worried about me because I really didn't need to lose weight. But, you know, my friend Adriana said, oh, no, don't worry. I'll just come back and. But that. It just. It just got me. It was like a jump start, and it got me really excited about, you know, nutrition and food is. Medicine became sort of my. My mission for myself. And then just. I'm like, you, a truth seeker. I wanted to know. I never heard of the acid alkaline balance. How is that possible? And I was getting those test strips, you know, that you pee on, and it was, like, fun for me. And I was doing it with my husband, and, you know, he wasn't doing the same level as me a little bit. Gave up coffee and alcohol with me and. But you could see the difference between our diets and what I was doing. What he was doing, I was like, really bright green, and he was more like a yellow. And so it just gave me something to focus on rather than the fear of what the doctors were just. Just handing me this, like. Like what happened with Sandra Lee, She's a celebrity chef. She was told that you have a ticking time bomb. A lot of women are told this, or they think this, this is perpetuated. So I didn't think that way at all. I was like, this is. This is nothing. This. The way Adriana took the fear away. She said the fear is the worst part of this because it's not just the food you're eating in the diet, it's the stress, the stress that this is putting on you. And also, let's look at.

And the power of that imagery, right? Like when they tell you that you have cancer, like, that's a bell that cannot be unwrong, right? And even if they say, well, it's precancerous, but we're going to treat you like you have cancer, the second you're in that space that I'm being treated like I have cancer space, it's so hard to get out of it. And that imagery is really powerful. And I believe that God is in charge of the world without question. I believe that we all have a plan, but at the same time, we can control what happens in our moment to moment. We can. And when you are filled with imagery of I have cancer, I'm going to die of cancer, you are for sure going to die of cancer, because that is the chemistry that you're going to create. And so we have to be super duper careful with our thoughts. And the medical industry is not helping because they're lighting that spark, right?

Yes. Oh, yeah. And it's still happening today, what happened to me 14 years ago. Things are changing and it's. It's getting a little bit better, maybe because we have some studies and they're. They're a little more like, open to what they consider active monitoring or surveillance now. But still, you know, they're. They're not communicating in a way that is calming and reassuring, that this is not anything to freak out about. Like, I didn't even know what oncology meant when I got the diagnosis. That's how naive I was. I had to look it up. I was pretty Clueless, because I didn't really, you know, even though my grandmother died of breast cancer, my best friend died of cervical cancer, my other grandmother died of pancreatic cancer. So cancer's all around us, but we're really uneducated as far as what is cancer. So when I was given the diagnosis of dcis, I thought I had like a gangrene going through my body. That was the imaging, I mean, and, and I do believe in self fulfilling prophecies and your thoughts become things and so you have to shift that. So that's why I'm forever eternally grateful to my friend because she took me out of that space and put me in this other enlightenment. I call it health enlightenment. I was on my way like this, like really fast. I, I cut out of it within a couple of days. Was not in fear. But then it does creep in. And this is why I'm, I'm there for women out there. Because every year when they do go for any kind of scanning, I hear back from them. They're nervous, they're scared. What if, oh, I feel this thing. And it is for the rest of your life that when you're given a diagnosis, and that's why I feel it's important to prevent over diagnosis, not just over treatment. There's a conference now called Preventing Over Diagnosis and I've been asked to be on the planning committee. Last year was the only patient advocate because I'm putting the messaging out there. I'm on Twitter and getting researchers from all over the world connecting with me. So there's some positive movements being made.

Amazing.

Yeah, not, not as much in the US but there's a lot going on in the Netherlands and in Denmark and in Australia and, and in all the.

Places that have abandoned their mammographic screening programs because they simply don't work.

Yeah, right. Well, what happened in Switzerland was they were, they were, you know, the report showed that. They said that it should be abolished, but what happened was it continued. Because even there they're, they're not listening. And I'm like, what is wrong with our system? This is, this is so wrong. And I'm so passionate about just helping the people, you know, on the ground floor get the messaging so that they don't fall down this rabbit hole. Because that's what it is. It's a cascade of events and they have no clue when they're called back. And then they go for the biopsy and then they need another wide excision. I didn't know what any of this was, but I Went along until, till I was told, you know, the word mastectomy came up. I was like, whoa, this is out of control here. And I was even told at the end when I, before I left my doctor, she said, your breast is like spoiled soup. It's just there and it's not worth saving. And that was when I said goodbye. I mean, imagine that image.

Oh my God.

Yeah, that's how bad it was. And then she said to me, that is horrible. Don't be stupid, Donna. At least do three weeks of double dose radiation. When I was like, they didn't, they couldn't get the margin. So this is what happens to women who get a. And I had a low risk. I had the oncotype, I had decision rt, I had a second pathology opinion and it was low grade, yet they wanted me to remove my breasts. And they put all this fear for two years. And then I said, I am done enough. And I really got, that's why I said, I got the bonk on the head because I was still sort of trusting a little bit with the system. And then I said, no, this is wrong. And so that's when I made my website and that's when I poured all my energy into studying nutrition. Following everyone out there talking about holistic prevention, functional, naturopathic, integrative. But the integrative doctors that are associated with these big centers, they're still following the guidelines. I know they can't go against it. So there's a little bit of, you know, people have to be careful who they go to because the integrative MD I went to said there's just no money in studying someone like you. And they, they have to go along with their colleagues.

Well, I think it's, I think it's bigger than that. I think we forget what our medical system is based on and that, that's just, it's money. And money makes the world go round. And all of these, all of these guidelines are brought to us by the same people that told us cigarettes were safe. And then they told us that. I don't know if you remember a drug called Vioxx. Oh, yeah, that Vioxx came onto the market and they knew very well that Vioxx caused heart attacks, but it was a risk they were willing to take to make that Money. And then OxyContin, the OxyContin story on the market. And people have written one's a drop, I guess, like two dramatization stories, Dope, sick and then painkillers about the Sackler family and the development of this monster of a drug that killed I don't even know how many people and ruined, I don't even know how many lives and the cost to the system that that happened and is still happening. And then, you know, of course there's the jab. Right. And I don't even want to get into it. But just the bottom line is that there, there have been at many, many times along the cycle and through the years where we have very much known that what we are doing is harmful and yet it makes so much money that we don't, we don't do the right thing. We don't do the right thing. And I think in the beginning, kind of doctors are trained that this is safe and no one asks questions. And then they get, you know, 10 and 20 and 30 years into their career and they can't even question anymore because they've lost their ability to think critically. And that's what you're seeing. And even the, I think a large problem with the integrative docs is that they're not specifically trained in cancer. And so if you're specifically trained in cancer, like I've come at it from this totally unique perspective because I was a cancer doctor for 20 years first and once I trained in, in functional medicine, I was like, oh my God, I can't believe how much damage I've done over the years. And that's a really, that's a tough spot to be in. I mean you have to do a lot of self reckoning at that point and say I have to forgive myself for that because I, I did it unknowingly. But if you are an integrative medicine doctor who doesn't understand that side of things and you just feel like you have to follow the guidelines, they're not questioning it either.

Yeah.

And I know plenty of integrative medicine doctors that are telling people to go get mammograms.

Yeah.

And do things that I just, I don't, I don't do, I don't do and I don't recommend. And we know when we look at the societies that don't screen right, those women are not dying of breast cancer at any higher rate than the women here. Right.

All the studies show there's not any.

There'S no survival, no overall survival. Overall survival benefit is 0. 0.

It's amazing when you, I have all this on my page, like the perception versus the actual. And I have Harding center risk literacy. It shows it all with the little people and the dots. I mean there's so much that has infographics that have been put out there and, and yet they ignore it. A lot of them, the doctors and the, and the system and the, the nonprofits, they, they will criticize it. Like that's based on law data or this or that, you know, the studies that don't support it.

But you.

What I, what I want people to know is they have to look at who's funding whatever's being said and is it part of their career? Are they getting any money off it? This is why I have intentionally never monetized my website and all that I'm doing with my support groups. I just haven't because I want to be pure in this and I do make money.

Utmost integrity, right? I mean, I, I wish I could work for free, but unfortunately, when I can, I will.

Yes, no, and it's a blessing because I'm paying it forward. It was given to me by my friend and it was, it was something that is like my pay it forward. It's my blessing. I mean, I do make money in other capacities, but for this website and the Facebook groups, I do as a volunteer pay it forward. But I also want to just mention about the system with. When, when I was given the diagnosis, I did ask about diet and the nurse said to me, you know, no, there's nothing you can do, but would you like a prescription for Xanax? So this is also being doled out and I just want to mention my personal experience. My mother, you know, took prescription medications from doctors that were psychotropic medications. This tortured her and eventually killed her after four years of hell, which I, you know, helped her through. But it's a very, very, you know, sad system that we've got in place. So now we're giving these diagnosis, we're giving, you know, very, very strong benzodiazepines and antidepressants that are so hard to get off of. I follow doctors who are trying to help now with that. So there's just so many layers to this that are, that are just heart wrenching.

I agree with you. I agree with you.

That's what you're doing is so incredible. And I've watched a number of your podcasts. I'm sharing it with my groups. I'm just going to blast it out there. I'm. You might think of me as an amplifier. I'm just looking for the experts. I love it. That I can amplify.

I'm on, I'm on a mission to help millions of women. And the only way that I'm going To do that is by people like you spreading the word. And I know that you're on that same mission because you don't want people to suffer unnecessarily. And together we can prevent people from suffering. And not only prevent them from suffering, but from really knowing real health.

Exactly.

Because that detox program that you went on for one month, it wrote the script for the rest of your life.

Yes. And 14 years later, I'm basically still doing that same program. It's not a diet, it's a lifetime commitment. It's a, it's a lifetime commitment. I love it. I, I've been taking pictures of my food for, you know, 12 years. You know, I do inspire some people. Yeah, I did a program through UCSD that was a natural healing and cooking program. And you know, I was training to be an instructor for that, but they, they charged a lot of money and I just also feel like not everybody can afford to go to these programs and do these things. For sure. I created a little non profit called Give Wellness and I was going out to the schools and to the low income communities and teaching demos how to make these spring rolls and you know, colored wraps and you know, great recipes that I put out there. I have some great recipes too that are. It's not that complicated.

No, it's not. And we do need to start with the children. We do. Because we, we need to teach the next generation to be better. Absolutely and absolutely need to do that.

They will get it.

They will. So I'm so grateful to you and your, and your Moses moment. And I, I want to ask you, if you were running the world, how would you handle this?

I would tell women the absolute truth like you talked about, you know, that first of all, give informed consent about whether or not to screen for any cancer because the majority of screening programs have no overall survival oversold because of propaganda and marketing and advertising. And I studied that in college, so I'm tuned into it. And I would teach people how to heal and how to prevent disease or illness and create health from the inside out through food, lifestyle, eliminating toxins as well as toxic relationships. And that's a big one. People talk about stress. Yes, we all have stress. But you know, there's, there's a lot. I have like a wheel of healing that I created. And so that's kind of the thing like with emotional, spiritual. So I got set on my spiritual path as a teenager. I was in a car accident, a friend of mine died and I questioned the religion I grew up with and I searched for answers. And so that kind of led me on finding happiness and what is the meaning of life. So this all plays in because I was already at a high level of consciousness. And so we have to take that into, you know, health is same thing, high consciousness health, where we're eating organic food not just for ourselves, but for the planet. And for supporting those organic farmers really not supporting things that come in a package and things that are being laced with chemicals. Like we have to really be conscious and that. So that's my vision is creating that, you know, almost like go back to when there was just, you know, farming and, and people ate from their lands. And I, you know, we've, we've tried, you know, growing some, some food, but we've had, you know, birds and rabbits and not quite successful critters. Critters get in the way. We have some mint and basil and try to, you know, always support the farmers markets and the local farmers and eating with a high level of consciousness, I think. And that. And also skin care and cosmetics and all these things that we're putting on our body or in our body, you know, have an enormous impact on health and longevity and attitude, you know, and just making sure you're not sitting in front of the TV and watching the negative news. Constant negative news. Right. Cnn, someone mentioned that was constant negative news.

Oh, my God, for sure it is.

You know, I think we're just always evolving and, and like what the last few years have taught me is that, you know, there's a lot of divisiveness. People are just not open and willing and there's something wrong with that energy. But then you have to let those people go sometimes. Just let it go. There's enough people that want the information, that want. That will go. Thank you. Thank you. You bless. I have people all over the world now blessing me because I know that I've helped them. And that to me is wonderful.

That's so beautiful.

Keep going. I'm. And then just hopefully we'll create this, this movement all together with doctors like you and, you know, people who get it. My philosophy is either you get it, take time to get it, or you never get it. So forget about the ones that never get it. Yes, take the ones that take time is the ones we're working with because you and I get it and hopefully we can help others understand this.

Absolutely. I love your truth. Talking about giving informed consent so that people know what the screening programs actually do, which is make a lot of money, but don't make a lot of impact. Know how to prevent disease and heal, know how to create health from the inside out, take the trash out. And that means the emotional relationships that are taxing the toxins that are in your home. Find happiness and meaning. Practice high conscious health and what we put in on and around us really matters. Donna, thank you so much for being here today, for doing what you do, for sharing your story, for being so very brave.

Thank you.

Because it's hard to put yourself out there, to be vulnerable, to allow for the negativity and the criticism. So this should be the only Teflon in your life is the ability to allow that negativity to just bounce off of you and disperse away from you. And you should only keep shining your light. I am so grateful to you.

Thank you so much. Dr. Jen, right back at you.

Oh, thank you. Bye for now.