106 Ripples of Goodness in a NYC Emergency Room

Welcome to the MindBodySpace podcast, where you can boost your resilience just by listening. To help us help you, please subscribe to this podcast and sign up for the newsletter at mindbodyspace.com/podcastnewsletter. There is now solid evidence that stress can affect our biology down to the cellular level, affecting our health, performance, and happiness. In these complex times, it's so important that we educate ourselves on useful versus toxic stress so that we can live our best lives. Hi, I'm Dr. Juna Bobby MD, a lifestyle medicine specialist and a fellowship-trained radiologist who's seen many preventable diseases from the inside out. My passion is sharing science-backed antidotes to toxic mental and physical stress so that you can focus on what's most important to you. Today, I'm so excited to have Dr. William Burke, an emergency room physician in New York City. He earned his medical degree at the Warren Alpert Medical School of Brown University and completed his residency in emergency medicine at Mount Sinai School of Medicine. During the pandemic, he became super passionate about facilitating sound meditations to help his coworkers and staff de-stress and to help people connect to their own source of self-love, joy, and inherent compassion in the present moment. Now, who doesn't need a little bit of that these days? Hello, William. How are you? Thanks so much for coming.

Hi, Juna Bobby MD. I'm well. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad we're doing this.

Yeah, this is great. Are you in a studio right now?

Actually, my bedroom. I have a little home studio, but the lighting's not very good. So we've got some heavy overhead lighting here. I actually only work nights in the ER. And so I have some really bright lights to help me with those day-night transitions and—

Oh, nice.

My pineal gland and melatonin cycling and things. Wow. That's why it looks so good in here.

Wow. I can't believe you work only nights. I would be crying every day.

I, in fact, I love it. I love it so much. It's a unique type of person that works in a Manhattan, Lower Manhattan, ER, only nights. Everyone's been there for 20+ years. It's just, it's a family.

It's really amazing. How long have you been working nights?

Since I Finished residency about 3 years ago. I've pretty much only worked nights.

Okay. That was my biggest nightmare when I was a resident and I was doing the night shift, um, in the ER. And I remember my husband at the time would walk me and I would be literally crying every night cuz I just wanted to go to bed. Yeah. And like, especially it was during the winter, so it was dark when I left home. Amazing that you can do that. And someone's got to do it. So thank you.

Oh yeah.

Thank you so much for doing that.

Someone's got to do it. The way I sort of frame my work is it's sort of my spiritual pressure cooker and working in sort of this really tough environment and the sort of weirdest times, the weirdest, it all just, it is my personal practice to just stay open, positive, full of love. And we'll talk a bit about that, I think. But, um, but yeah, working nights is, is, uh, is— it makes it even better.

That's great. Um, and you're an emergency room physician at Mount Sinai.

Yeah.

And I wanted to talk to you about what you've been doing lately. You've been doing a lot of sound work, it sounds like. Um, sound work sounds like, uh, you've been doing sound baths for people and We were introduced by Elizabeth, a former Juilliard student. And how do you know her? She went to one of your sound baths.

She came to some of my sound events, and, um, and yeah, I'm glad she put us in touch.

Yeah, she's an amazing violinist, and oh my gosh, and pianist.

Um, she's learning the tabla. I enjoy Indian classical music a lot, and we've got a lot in common.

Yeah, so are you guys going to do something together? That would be fantastic.

Yeah, hopefully we'll work together on some things. She's a really amazing musician. Um, yeah, uh, we haven't— yeah, nothing, nothing, uh, solidified, but it's been in sort of the— it's been in the ether for a while.

So I had Sarah Oster on a while back. Do you know her? She's a big sound healer.

Yeah, of course.

And she's been doing things with the New York Philharmonic recently, and it's been completely sold out. So I, I think that there's, um, a need for more you know, sort of combining all of these modalities. Wow.

Although I'll say that classic— classical music, Western classical music, doesn't lend itself perfectly to a meditative space. You know, in general, when there's sort of— there's melody and there's rhythm, your brain can sort of lock on to those elements and give you an idea of planning, oh, maybe this is what's coming next. This is the crescendo versus what I do is, is usually it's more meditative and it's not necessarily, it doesn't follow a cadence or rhythm. So you don't, you don't know what's coming. You're not really following along. You're just present. Uh, and that's sort of the, the idea.

Oh, very interesting. I, I love that you're talking about that because I was thinking about it before I came on this interview with you and I was thinking about why, you know, something like a sound bath is so calming. And literally, you're closing your eyes, you're only focusing on Dr. Burke giving you a sound bath, and you're hearing these beautiful tones— or not so beautiful, I don't know, maybe you're just not supposed to judge, because I have been to sound baths where not every single tone is, you know, quote unquote pleasing— but you're really hyper-focused on that one sound. Yeah, right. So I wonder if that's the key to sort of the mindfulness aspect of sound baths and the calming aspect.

Yeah, I mean, there's, there's a lot in there. Um, as opposed, I think, to meditation where you may be focusing on the breath, on a visualization, on your steps, maybe in a walking meditation, using sound as the focal point of the meditation is sort of the idea of what I'm doing. And I like to frame my work in this as a meditation. It's not a healing. I don't have special powers. It's not a bath. Bath implies a passive state, maybe that you're simply relaxing into the bath. What I try to do is around creating an environment that really pushes you to become the sound, to be entirely present. And sound is beautiful for that, in that it comes on, sustains, goes away, and there's nothing that you can do to impose yourself on that. As long as you're in the room, it's gonna— the sound is coming to you, as opposed to your breath, which you can manipulate, or your steps. That has something to do with you. You're just present, connected, listening. That's really It's beautiful.

Cool. And you actually have done it with, um, people in those baths, right? Uh, the— what is it? The— I think Elizabeth sent me a post.

Uh, Sensory Deprivation Float Tank Center.

Yeah, yeah, that looks pretty cool. I'm afraid to go in those things because I'm not sure how clean they are, but they must be clean.

So they get— they get washed between between participants. I get it.

I don't get my nails done either, really.

Because you're worried about?

Foot fungus.

Oh, I see. Like a pedicure.

Got it. That's a whole tangent. But anyway.

Yeah, we partnered with Flo Lo Holistics in Midtown.

It looked amazing.

It was cool. We did 3 gongs around the bath and you could really feel the vibration above, you know, you're sort of half in the air, half in the water, feeling the vibration, feeling it differently as it travels through those different mediums. It was really, really neat.

Oh, that— I would love to try that. That sounds really good.

Let's, let's do it. I've had a lot of fun experimenting with, yeah, things like that. We're experimenting with what recorded sound can feel like in meditative states. The way I started all of this was doing meditations for my emergency room staff. And doing quick little bring yourself back to compassion, like burnout prevention meditation. Mm-hmm. And it sort of grew from there. So yeah, I've had a lot of fun just playing with the elements in different states, different people.

That's amazing. So you started giving sound mini meditations in the ER during the pandemic, right? Which of course I want to thank you. And we're so grateful for people like you and the frontline workers who were there. Throughout the pandemic. That was such a scary time when it all started.

Yeah, thank you for saying that. That's kind of you.

Yeah, I mean, no, really, so grateful. Um, so you started it during that time, is that what happened? So tell us, like, how did you just happen to have a gong around? Like, what, what made you start? And like, had you been to sound baths before? I know you have a long-standing meditation practice, so maybe, um, tell us how you got into the sound part. Yeah, let me take you all the way back, and then after that we'll talk about how you grew up in a Buddhist home and all that. But, but how did you get into the sound meditation in particular, and how did you start doing it in the ER, and how did you convince them to let you in the middle of an ER shift?

Oh, that was easy.

Oh, really?

They've been extremely supportive. Yeah. So I think it helps to understand the background a little bit. I was raised meditating, going to City Yoga Ashram growing up, and we would practice some meditation at home.

So your parents were Buddhists?

It's sort of secularly Buddhist. It's not like we were— we weren't vegetarian. I don't think they believed in reincarnation, but they took the elements that they wanted, which was mainly meditation. We did a little bit of metta work, which is loving-kindness meditation. It wasn't as if we were— we weren't religious about it, I guess is to say. But we would go maybe monthly and do little day retreats and things.

Um, oh nice.

Okay.

And were your parents physicians?

No, no, no, no. No, not at all. No, they were just interested. So I was doing that as a kid and into medical school. I started doing Vipassana retreats before, I guess, before I started medical school and trying to do yearly 10-day to week-long silent retreats. Then I was exposed to sound maybe 2019 as a, as a form of meditation. And again, I've been meditating for a long time, but I think probably a lot of your listeners will empathize with the idea that it's hard. It is really challenging. And, you know, the only times I'm comfortable, like, really dropping in is when I've done like 5 days of, you know, no talking, daily meditations, staying in a little bunk, you know. Yeah, those are the times where meditation just feels really natural, but if you're waking up, going to work, looking at your phone, it's almost impossible to drop into a meditation that's even 10 minutes long without distraction. And that's the practice, of course. But I found that with sound, I could just relax into this thing. No need for thoughts, no need. And a bit of that is that it's being given to you. You feel a bit taken care of in a way. So it's a beautiful vehicle. Yeah. And, and yeah, you can just put your mind on it. If you think about maybe listening to your favorite song, you're not, you're not thinking about what's, you know, what's coming next. You're not planning your, your next week. You're not thinking about, oh, I gotta do this, that, and the other. You're just—

that's nice. So it's like a vehicle.

Yeah.

To bring you into that sort of Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love that analogy. Okay, that's a great analogy. Um, and I have a question for you. When you were being raised and as a kid and your parents wanted you to sit and meditate, like, I know most kids, including mine, were— would be very resistant. How did you— did you find it helpful or did you resist it, or did it come back to you later, or you just took it as something that helped you along the way?

I, you know, I don't know if I put a lot of conscious thought on like how it was received as a kid. I've worked with kids to do some meditation stuff since, and it's really hard. It's really tough to get kids to focus. Um, you know, it was like a kids camp, so I think it was relatively dynamic, and, you know, the adults did their thing and the kids were sort of doing their thing. And I, I remember as a kid, my first— the first way I thought about meditating was my mind was a flat plane, and there was a tow truck with a— or not a tow truck, uh, I don't even know what to call it, like a scooper, a truck, like a tractor, big tractor truck with one of those scoops on it.

A dump truck?

Maybe a dump truck. Gosh, I'm not sure what to call it. The scooper thing that like digs the scooper thing. Yeah, and pushes.

Yeah, a digger.

Yeah, a digger.

Yeah, like Bob the Builder.

I'm not sure about Bob the Builder, but Um, so it's a scooper thing, and my— I remember it was a flat plane, and the scooper thing was just pushing thoughts into the periphery. Like, this was the— my visualization, like, a thought would come and I would just take the scooper truck and scoop. I must have been like 5 or 6. The scooper truck was just scooping out, and that's how I started. Um, and actually, that stayed with me probably for a decade at least. Yeah, so yeah, it's funny, I haven't thought about that forever. Uh, yeah, I noticed thoughts would arrive and then I'd sort of place those thoughts on the center of the plane and then the scooper truck would just push them out and then I would be back to a flat, empty plane.

Nice. Okay, and so, uh, did you carry that through high school with you and then through medical school? Did it ever help you?

Honestly, I gotta say I have to say it fell off in high school. Did it help me? It certainly helped in medical school. A morning meditation practice is the most grounding. I understand not having time, but I'll say that if in the morning you can do some breath and some meditation, your whole day will be energized. You'll be more effective. And wake up 15 minutes early. It's worth it's worth making that part of your life, even if you're not getting enough sleep. Yeah, so it definitely helps.

Because for some reason, when our brains feel distracted and kind of unfocused, it's not a pleasant feeling.

Yeah, it's not an effective feeling. It's not pleasant. It brings anxieties. You know, anxieties are formations of your thoughts. Anger is a thought. You know, sadness, um, feelings. And the goal is to not identify with them and let them pass. And maybe you can take your dump truck, or whatever we're calling it, and push those out. And, and you don't necessarily have to identify with them. So yeah, I mean, imagine a life where you're not identifying with your anxieties. You're definitely going to be more effective.

Yeah. And I, I also always recommend like first thing in the morning because then it sets the tone for your day.

Yeah, absolutely. Right. And your brain in that, as you wake up, it's starting to, it's starting to really ramp up. Oh, I gotta do this. Oh, I got, oh my God, I got this text message. Oh, I, you know, whatever.

Um, especially if you look at your phone first, right? Which most people do.

And that is a bad habit.

Yeah.

It's so easy to do.

Yeah. And I, I have been known to have that issue myself.

Oh, likewise. It's so, it's intoxicating. It's, you know, you're warm, you're not good.

Yeah. Oh, especially when you have kids. My— both my kids left home and I'm an empty nester now. So like, if they're texting me, I can't— I can't resist, you know? And I'm working on that now. But, but definitely for sure, it's distracting and it's not a pleasant feeling. It's really not. Your brain does not like to feel like there's all these things going on at the same time.

Yeah. I mean, not only all these things, but all these like, oh, I gotta do that. So I, you know, all these emotions flooding in.

Mm-hmm.

So giving yourself 15 minutes of really, I'm in control of, of these thoughts. I'm in control of these, uh, intentions or, or these compulsions. Thank you. Uh, I think is, is such a powerful practice.

Um, something I'd really, and it just takes a few minutes to just basically redirect your mind, you know, and just show that you can do that. It's almost like waking up your nerves to move your body. Right. Just stretching or it's just, it's kind of like that. Just warming up for the rest of the day.

In looking at some of your podcasts, it looks like you've touched on morning routines, but yeah. Yeah. Doing a lot of those things. It's also hard. People use their phones to do their meditation timers, which—

Oh yeah.

That is a trap. That is a trap.

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So my little, my little cue would be keep it on silent. If you have to use your phone for the timer, keep it on silent. Don't turn it on really. Or airplane mode or whatever you're ready to do. And then once you're done with your practices, turn it back on.

So Dr. Herbert Benson, who, uh, is the mind-body practitioner that I trained with, um, the late Dr. Herbert Benson, he used to just say like peek at the clock. Don't ever, you know, don't even worry about it too much, just peek at it and don't jar yourself out with like an alarm, you know. So I think that's what you're trying to say, or not use your phone so you don't get distracted.

I like actually to have an alarm because if I'm peeking at peaking at a clock, it always sort of brings me back. If I have an alarm, it just, uh, I can, I'm present until I'm brought back. And then I'm, I find that there's fewer breaks in my, in my practice, but people will see what works for them.

I guess he was talking to the distracted ones.

Yeah.

Like me. So you started in the ER during the pandemic. We were gonna talk about how you, oh, right.

Yeah, let me tell you, I about maybe 2 years ago, yeah, they're just, you know, looking around, massive toll on my patients, on my coworkers, on everyone's just sort of ability to show their own compassion. Are you familiar with the idea of like filling your cup? You need to make sure that you feel loved, you feel cared for before you can share with others. And Everyone was really just empty cup. It was really tough.

Yeah, in New York City, right? People were clapping for all the frontline workers in New York City because everybody was home.

I think early on there was a lot of awareness. People were clapping at 7 o'clock. It felt really good. Yeah, it was really nice. People were like coming out on their balconies and banging pots and pans. I think they did this around the world, uh, and it was, it was really nice. There's a lot of awareness and But like, you know, year 2, year 1, even year 2, it just— everyone was just having a hard time. And in especially overnight in the emergency room, all the, you know, every patient's having the worst day of their life. You're getting sort of, you're getting hit with a lot of dissonant energies, let's say.

Well, an ER in New York City is just in itself without the pandemic is horrifically stressful as I remember. Seeing some of the craziest stuff in the ERs in my, uh, in my training days. Yeah, yeah, unimaginable actually. That's like another whole podcast of like what we've seen in the ER, and I'm sure you have amazing stories. Yeah, let's do another one. Yeah, I'd love to.

Yeah, yeah, it's, yeah, it's wild. Let's, let's do, let's do that podcast. I've got, I've got stories, but Yeah, people were just having a hard time. And as sort of the boss, I guess, as sort of the guy in the center of the concentric circles of staff, whether it's the nurses, the medical students, the residents, the clerks, janitors, the, you know, everyone, I can sort of watch that and I can see when that's happening and I can see when, when someone, you know, is hurt and I can see when someone's upset and I can see when someone's just not connecting to the love that they can give. And so my practice for 6 or 9 months was just identifying that person, making sure that there was a room ready for us, and giving them a 3 to 5 minute little meditation about breath, about presence. And, you know, very few of my staff have, have really meditated before, but I was finding that people echoed my experience in that just with the sound, you can drop into a pretty deep place pretty quickly.

And wow, that's great. So you like basically pulled them aside and like took them into a room and pulled them aside?

Yeah.

I was just imagining you walking around with your bowl, like just seeing someone upset.

No, so much of this is setting the set, the sort of making sure that the setting is good.

Yeah. How did they— how did you even get them to agree with you, especially if people who are not familiar with meditation? Like, I've been in ERs before. It's kind of hard to imagine.

It's not the patients. I wasn't doing it with the patients. That's a bit of a field too far.

No, I, I know you meant the staff. I can't even imagine like how you would approach that. You must have a perfect touch or something, a magical touch.

I think I'm very friendly and I think I love the ER because I was saying this to a friend yesterday, it's everyone is on the same team.

Mm-hmm.

We're all doing everything we can.

So they know you already. They trust you.

Yeah. I've been there for a while and, and I have love for everyone and they all have love for me. So this actually got confusing for me. You know, I'm sort of the guy who more or less who's in charge of the medical element of in the ER. You know, I'm overseeing everyone, let's say. You know, it's like if your boss is like, oh, let's do this cool thing. And I'm excited. I was wondering at some point whether or not their excitement in this was just a reflection of my excitement, but But regardless, yeah, we take, you know, and it wouldn't necessarily be when things exploding and people are, you know, gunshot, heart attacks, that sort of thing. But when we have a bit of downtime, you know, 4:30 in the morning, things are sort of hanging out. Yeah, it's like, and I was able to bring people in, show them love, show them that they're cared for, give them an experience that for just a moment, let them take a break. People take hate on and they have to like, there's just their mind starts cycling and there's pain and there's anger and there's history and there's triggers and you take a moment away from that cycle and you just listen. And I think listening is the first step in compassion and you know, you move away, you're not in this sort of space of judging and labeling, and you're just in receptivity, love for yourself, reminding yourself that you are good and safe and someone loves you, and you're in a place of compassion. And that compassion ripples to not only the patients who then feel that, who are then friendly and full of compassion for you, it ripples to the co-workers, it ripples to everyone, and and it turns into this just vibe. It's just great. And so, so we turn people into almost like beacons of love as opposed to cycling, you know, anger. And the whole night turns into a beautiful celebration of how can we help? Yeah, it's the best.

Wow, that's amazing. Because there's a lot of anger, you're saying, and hate in the ER. Like, they get to experience a lot of emergencies, I guess, a lot of stress.

Everyone's having the worst day of their life. And how they take that out. You know, there's plenty of people that come into the ER full of the ability to, "Oh, no problem. Take your time. This is not too important." But then there's plenty of people, yeah, who need help right now. And the way they show that need is being loud, being, you know, and it's just them making sure that they're being taken care of. But the way that can come across, you know, and New York City, it's every culture, it's every, you know, type of person. It's every issue. And yeah, it can be, can be tough.

Oh, that's an understatement.

Yeah.

I remember being in the ER in the Lower East Side and this one guy punched our phlebotomist, you know, the technician.

Oh, yeah.

He was, yeah, inebriated and he punched him. And then, yeah, that's the kind of thing that happened like every night.

So, yeah, we've all been attacked.

Yeah. Yeah. But again, thank you so much for doing the work that you're doing. And the— these micro ripples of love and micro ripples of compassion is really how— I know you said you're not a healer, but definitely does heal people. Like the, you know, just a little bit of kindness and compassion and a little bit of focus and quiet in the middle of chaos.

I love it.

That's definitely healing. And like you said, it's like, it's like most people's worst day if you're in the ER as the patient. Yeah.

Medicine's moved so far away from that. Um, that I, I love, I, so I have medical students and residents and, and what I love teaching more than anything is just taking care of other people can be taking care of yourself and Every time you show compassion to someone else, you've been that other person. This person is a mirror to someone you've been that you would rather not be. So I've been angry, I've been selfish, I've been obnoxious, I've been hurt, I've been, I've been all of these. And every person that sort of triggers me is a time that I can say, oh, I love you. You are me. You are me in that moment, in that history. I'm gonna care for you. I'm gonna say I love you. Or every chance that someone hurts me is, oh, this is my chance to keep my heart open, to stay present, to stay compassionate. And that practice has absolutely changed my life.

And also the vulnerability. Like, as a patient, you're so vulnerable. I remember when I had my kids and it was the first time I was in a hospital in a hospital gown. And the vulnerability that comes with being the patient is just something you have to experience and everybody's going to experience it at some point in their lives. So unfortunately or fortunately, it's everyone's worst day.

But when you come in and you're— you feel that you're being heard and seen and that's all— it's all most people want is, is to say, oh, I hear you. I'm here to help you, and we have all the resources in the world, so I'm here to help you, and, and what can I do? It feels amazing because then they, you know, most people in New York don't get the chance to be heard or seen. Everyone's moving so fast, you know, there's not many people have a strong community, someone to talk to about their problems, and they come to the ER. It's certainly not what they're expecting.

Yeah, I mean, I remember seeing people in the hospital and you would You know, and then seeing them on the street or in their regular lives after, and I was like, whoa, that's not you. You're like a totally different person from when you're vulnerable in the hospital sick versus in your regular life.

Oh my gosh. Absolutely. That's another good point, right? You're just, you don't understand what's happening necessarily. There's people flying around, you're in a gown, you're like half naked and there's someone yelling, oh, it's terrifying. And, um, and yeah, like meeting people at, in that place and they're, they're not expecting it in the ER. So that's why they have to advocate for themselves, but that can be tough. So yeah, meeting people where they're at in that and, and just saying, I'm like, I'm right here.

And I have been lucky enough to meet very compassionate ER docs. It makes all the difference. So again, I want to thank you so much, William, for all the work you're doing as an ER doctor and also you know, that you're sharing this kind of amazing mind-body practice with your staff.

Yeah, and in regards to that, um, started doing it with the staff, and then we started doing longer form 3 to 4 hour retreat programs where we give people the chance to move, to meditate, to—

nice.

I think there's a lot of benefit in sharing sort of the collective trauma around what we've all been through, all the death we've seen, all the pain around that. I think there's a lot of undiagnosed PTSD in healthcare workers that, that I think should be brought to the surface and making sure that there's a space for people to talk about that. So we've been running programs and Mount Sinai has been extremely supportive of that, which I'm very thankful.

Wonderful. So please tell us where people could find your next sound baths or where they should look. What's your website? Where should they go?

Oh, I just want to frame the experience as a sound meditation rather than a bath. So they can check me out at williamburkmd.com. William, and the last name is B-E-R-K. It's not a common spelling. Or on Instagram, williamburkmd or spiral_sounds are the Instagrams.

And where are the venues that you're going to be in in the next—

Yeah, so I do a lot of work at Souk Studios, which is 27th between Broadway and 6th. S-O-U-K, exactly. They've been extremely supportive and it's a beautiful space. So we're doing some stuff there, some local gyms. I have a little home studio and then I do a lot of private events in people's homes and things.

Great.

Yeah, so I partnered with an organization called Oswald's Mill Audio, OMA, and they essentially produce the world's nicest speaker systems. They produce frequencies above and below what the ear can perceive. And if you've ever been to a concert, you feel that sort of booming in your chest, you feel it sort of physically. These speaker systems actually produce sound that you feel almost the intricacies of those waves physically without the volume being so high. So it feels like you're in the presence of the artist who's making the music, but feeling these waves. It's, it's just so beautiful.

So they physically— the air pressure is like more forceful than the actual volume. Is that what you're saying? Somehow they did— manipulated the technology so that you feel the sound waves more than, you know, because sound waves are physical, physical waves that hit you like vibration without blowing out your eardrums.

Exactly. It's the most beautiful experience. And he and I are working together on reimagining maybe the way that sound meditations can occur using recorded sound, adding elements of classical music, Indian classical, Indonesian, as well as more modern stuff, jazz, and including that in some meditations. And yeah, sort of just playing around with what that can look like.

Um, that's very interesting. That's very exciting. Good for you. So let us know when that comes out. And, uh, is it a recording that you're going to be selling, or is it something that, like, a live experience that we should look out for?

It would be a live experience. Yeah.

Wonderful. Yeah. All right, well, we'll keep in touch. Let us know what's going on with that. Thank you.

Thank you.

That was Dr. William Burke, emergency room physician and sound meditation facilitator. Meditator. You can find out more about him and upcoming events at williamburkemd.com. You can also head on over to mindbodyspace.com/episode/106 for the show notes, transcript, and links. If you enjoyed this, please leave a review. It helps us so much. Subscribe at mindbodyspace.com/podcastnewsletter and you'll get special tips, roadmaps for listening to specific topics, and you can ask us questions. Please share this podcast with curious people who want to learn about science-backed antidotes to stress less and be healthy, wealthy, and wise. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, this is Dr. Juna Bobby MD wishing you and your loved ones wellness.