#3 Resilience to Love Against All Odds

If Grandma and Grandpa could survive that, surely what you're going through is not so bad. And that was when a boy didn't like me back. That was when I got a bad test grade. And that was also, more specifically, a few years ago I was very ill and I had to go through really hard treatment and it wasn't good. And my mother would say, well, it's not the Holocaust.

From Mind Body Space, it's The Chill Pill for Moms, a show about stories of resilience, antidotes to stress that actually work, and the right dose of science-backed prevention to keep you and your family well. All right, so thank you so much for being here today.

Thank you for having me.

I love your hair color.

It looks like you—

Elise has her hair ombré from the middle all the way to the tips in pink. Yeah, it's beautiful. I love it. You have a really cool funky style.

Yeah, I definitely always like to revisit pink hair. I wanted it since I was a child and I was never allowed to have it, so now as an adult I've gone crazy with the pink. And as a mom of two teenage boys that are wrestlers and that are always talking about protein shakes and and lifting weights and benching, I gotta feel like a girl, you know? So pink hair definitely taps into the feminine energy, you know, side of myself for sure. My boys are used to me when I walk down the stairs with a new hair color or whatever. They don't even respond or acknowledge it at this point.

They're like, "So what's for dinner?" You know, I'm like, "Really?" Elise spent almost every weekend with her grandparents in Brooklyn from when she was a baby until around 11 years of age when she couldn't anymore because she became she became very serious about training for gymnastics. Her grandparents really didn't talk directly about the Holocaust to her. She remembers some of the peculiar day-to-day perspectives that made an impression on her even as a young child. She also heard bits and pieces of the love story between her grandparents. She knew in her heart that these stories needed to be preserved and shared with the world. Her resulting book, Roses in a Forbidden Garden, quickly became an Amazon bestseller.

Ja, so it's about my grandmother and her time as a teenager during World War II. She was German, well, is German. Mostly about how she fell in love with my grandfather. I would always hear about these daring acts of love that they would express their feelings towards one another, and they were just so beautiful. They became my belief that that was how love exists in the world. So she really shaped my view on the world and love's importance. I always found her stories to be so inspirational that I felt it was my duty to really share it with the world.

A typical weekend, you're hanging out at her house, what was that like?

Ja, she was really, really sweet. She'd cook me traditional German dishes. She wanted to form my Jewish identity. They were very observant, and so we would have Shabbat on Friday nights with challah and the chicken soup, and Saturday mornings we would go to synagogue together, and then we just spend the rest of the day until Sunday night just playing with my Barbie dolls and watching Wheel of Fortune and playing Uno card games. I mean, it was just, you know, she would take me to the park down the street, you know, she was just fun. Yeah. She would tell me the stories about when, you know, they would meet, but then I would also hear the stories of, let's say I wouldn't finish all the food on my plate, they said, "You can't do that. We were starving. We wished we had too much food." You know, and they get really angry at me when I wouldn't finish all the food on my plate, and I understood, of course. So I would hear about the war. It was a constant. So therefore I was always very well aware of the risks involved with being Jewish. That was at times overwhelming as a child, because you didn't really know how to handle it. And it was almost— I could feel their trauma, and that wasn't their intention. They just wanted me to be aware. Like they said, "Always have your passport, you know, in case you have to run away." Because that was their reality. So they were just trying to raise me with a certain awareness of the world, And it worked, but it also created, I think, a lot of fear.

Great anxiety.

It was, and ironically enough, I always ran away from the imagery of the Holocaust or from the history, and we were taught in 7th grade about it, and for me it was a reality and it was a possibility of happening again. With the exception of keeping our passports, you know, Renewed. And that was pretty much all we ever spoke about in terms of the Holocaust. Of all things that I then wrote this book and I've spent the last few years of my life spending in Germany and giving lectures to school children and speaking to Parliament about it. It's really very ironic. You just never know where life takes you.

Anything else that you remember that allowed you to learn about what they had been through, the kind of trauma that happened?

I was young. So I had a very small glimpse, and I think probably more of an age-appropriate glimpse. Like when I saw relatives and they had numbers on their arm, I'm like, "What's that?" So at first they say, "Oh, it's so I don't forget my phone number." And then as I got older, they said, "No, they put it— the numbers from the camp." So I was like, "Okay." You know, so it was a very mild form of presenting information to me.

When you're growing up, how does this affect you?

There was a large Jewish community, so I didn't feel I was alone at any point. But that being said, during the high holidays at synagogue, we were always very well aware that a police presence, an armed police presence, was needed. Also, there was always numerous bomb threats at the synagogue growing up. That was not unusual. I remember even, um, the first boy I liked I kissed. He was a cute Italian boy from the Bronx. We really liked each other. Somehow it came up in conversation that I was Jewish. And he's like, "What?

You're Jewish?

Does that matter?" He was done. We had a shared group of friends, and every time he was around me, he would make very inappropriate Jewish jokes. I really did like him, and it was sad, and he really liked me, which was weird. And I even found out many years later, maybe about 20 years later, that he actually— we happened to know someone in common, and he said, "Hey, can you take a picture? She's still so pretty and so nice." And that just kind of broke my heart. Why is everything important than humanity and love? Like, why is something like religion held to greater importance than that? That just blows my mind. And I met my husband at 16, so— and he's Italian.

You knew you were gonna marry him the minute he brought you the pizza?

A slice of pizza at a party, yeah.

What kind of a pizza was it? I mean, like a cheap date, right? Exactly. So it's not the Italian thing, it's the pizza. Yeah, exactly.

Well, that kind of goes together, doesn't it? When he saw me, he knew I would be his wife, but it took him a year and a half to build up the courage. We haven't been apart one day in 25 years.

Your parents, did they tell you to date Jewish boys?

Oh, that was expected.

It was expected, but you just said no. I'm going out with only Italian guys. Is that what happened?

Well, it wasn't like I was only shooting for Italian. Was there conflict? About us? Yeah, there was a big— I mean, my mom is great, like she disapproved. I never made sense to her, but no matter what, she loved me and supported me in everything, as she did without fail. So when I said, well, this is the guy, then she immediately embraced him. It was harder for my grandparents. They actually didn't show up to my wedding, which was really huge. Before my grandfather passed away, he said of his whole life, that was his one regret. That he didn't support me and go to my wedding, and I believe that.

Did you feel like, "Why am I always dating outside of my religion?" Or was that just something natural to you? It sounds like you're a very romantic person.

Yeah, I just really am extremely romantic, and I guess from those love stories from my grandmother, I just always believed I was looking for the love of my life. So as soon as I found it, I said, "This is it." That's it.

And you were mentioning that you had heard a lot of love stories from your grandmother?

Yes, it was very beautiful because in their garden they always had a bed of marigolds. And because they're not particularly beautiful, and it was amongst their rose bushes and things like that, and they would always treasure it. And I would ask, why the marigold? What's so special about this flower? When they were in the camps, it was her birthday. My grandfather, he had a friend who worked in the Nazi gardens. When he was tending the garden, he hid a single marigold in his watering can and brought it into the camp. On the celebration of her birthday, my grandfather not only takes out a marigold for her, and she hadn't seen one in years at that point, a flower, and she always loved flowers, and he and his friend actually risked their lives to give her this flower. They could have been shot on sight for doing something like that. But he also worked in a bakery and he had another friend manage to bake her a small cake, which was also forbidden. So everyone was risking their lives to allow my grandfather to show his girlfriend how much he loved her. She actually took it back to her, her room and kept it there for a month. And that was so risky because it could be twice a week the guards would come and look for contraband. Those small acts and the hope that they would talk about when they get out of the camp, they would get married and start a family together, that was what allowed her to survive and stay spiritually and emotionally strong through that time. When my grandfather was to be transported out east, they didn't know exactly what it meant, but they knew it was bad. The last evening before he was to be transported out, he jumped into a Nazi garden filled with pink rose bushes. He picked a rose. He said, "This is the perfect rose for my perfect girl." She put it in this envelope and dated it, and she still has those same rose petals he had given her almost 75 years ago. That was the inspiration for the title of my book, which is Roses in a Forbidden Garden: A Holocaust Love Story. Amazing. So these were like amazing stories. That's why I believe in love and at all costs. It's just It shaped me.

And she still has these petals?

Yeah, I have a picture of it in my book and they're becoming famous, you know, because it's so beautiful and so amazing. My grandfather was transported to Auschwitz and then after that to Dachau and even survived a small death march after that. He was liberated by the Americans. He was 5'10", weighed 78 pounds. And he had typhus, so it took him a good 6 months until he was strong enough to go and look for her.

Wow, that's an incredible story. What's your favorite love story?

Oh my God, I've never been asked that. I wasn't prepared. I mean, I loved Wilbur Smith's books. They were historical fiction about ancient Egypt, like The River God and books like that. I loved also The Red Tent that was also really beautiful to me. So a lot historical fiction with major themes of love.

At that point, were you working or were you a stay-at-home mom?

Yeah, so—

when you decided to write this book?

My focus was definitely raising my children. I was definitely a stay-at-home mom. I always pursued some sort of, some form of artistic pursuits, but my My primary role was raising my kids. And the beauty of it—

And had you been writing all this time in your adult life, or was it something that just came to you one day and you decided, hey, there's a book here? How did that happen? Where did that spark come from?

So again, with that voice, all of a sudden one day—

Oh, the voice!

The voice! You need to name this voice. I know, I need to name her or him. I don't know.

Is it a woman's voice?

I don't know.

Or is it just like a thought?

I think it's just an inner voice or it's a connection to, you know, who knows how the spiritual world works, but I felt it's like a spiritual calling.

What were you doing? Do you remember that moment?

Yeah, I remember the moment because I was brushing my hair and putting on my makeup and all of a sudden I had this voice say to me, "You have to write her story." And I was like, "No." This is like, I answered the voice. I said, "No, I'm not." Not out loud, but I answered it. I was like, No, I can't take on that responsibility. And says, you have to write it. You have to write it. And I'm like, no, no, no. I never wanted to bear that responsibility of historic— the historic responsibility of everyone that had been lost. My account would be the only— would be their only— they were lost to history. So many of these people. So my way of telling the story would be— would bring them to life. And that was very— that was very frightening to me. I didn't know if I was up to that. So what I did is I immediately picked up the phone and called my grandmother, because I know— and I told her, "I'm going to write your story." And I knew that once I told her that, that I was bound and I couldn't back out.

And was she excited by that when you told her?

Oh no, she hated the idea. Oh! But no, she thought it was a horrible idea, but she loves me and supports me, and she said yes immediately.

Why did she think it was a horrible idea?

Well, there's multiple reasons, but for the first being is she's a very private, shy person. She doesn't like any attention.

And you did mention that your family for the most part ran away from this history and didn't really want to revisit it on a daily basis. Is that right?

Absolutely. Especially her. My grandfather was much more vocal of the two of them. My grandmother, she never really spoke about anything. She was always somebody's daughter, somebody's wife, or somebody's mother, but she was never stood on her own and she liked it that way. She was 89 at this point and they were concerned if this would maybe adversely affect her health, you know, talking, you know, the pain of the past. And I was very conscious of that. So the interviews were like an hour and a half over coffee and cake and in my mother's kitchen. And we only took it as far as she wanted to go. And that's why the interview, it took a year and a half because we had to be, I had to really honor the process that she never mourned these people or spoke about these people that she had lost 70 years ago at that point. I said, I just want to interview you on all the stories. What happened, your childhood. When my first question to her was, when did the war become real to you? When was the first moment for you?

And do you mind sharing that with us?

So for her, she had already been kicked out of school. She had already been forced to sit way back in the class. She had been forced to endure lectures by the principal on the biology of a Jew, on the history of a Jew. She said for her that really shaped her identity, meaning she always carried with her an inferiority complex, because those were literally her, her class lessons were on the inferiority of Jews. She wasn't permitted to continue her education after the age of 13, which also enhanced her feelings of inferiority, because she always respected learned people and doctors, so she was always very ashamed that she didn't have a formal education. But for her, what she said, the first time she felt the war was real to her, was the night of Kristallnacht, which was November 9th, 1938, when the SA came to their homes and destroyed their homes and took her father away as a criminal. Wow. Yeah, that was when she first felt it.

How did you feel learning all these firsthand stories? Did it change your perspective on the world? How does that shape you as a person? As a mom.

It was actually interesting. I didn't expect a lot of the stories that she told me. It actually gave me a lot of hope, which was really interesting. They were forced to wear the Jewish stars over their left breast jacket. How was it when you'd walk down the street? Did they heckle you? Did they throw things at you? Did you feel, now that you were wearing a literal target, did you feel harassed, did the violence increase, what happened? And she said something so interesting that blew my mind. She says, "Absolutely not. No, everyone knew who the Jews were in town already, and just the opposite, everyone would look at me with sympathy, and I felt that they felt so sorry for me." And many of the non-Jewish shopkeepers, because Jews were already restricted with certain food, would secretly put it out when she knew, they knew she'd be walking by to, you know, and there were all these small acts of kindness from the townspeople. And this is in Germany. And she was very clear, she said, listen, I can't speak for every Jewish person walking around with the star at this time. She said, this was just my experience. Hitler only got 30% of the votes of the election. That means that other 70% followed along, right, which is bad, but they didn't believe in it. They didn't support it. We can tell this story. Within those times, of Germany's times, if they still didn't believe in it, and they're like, "No, but these are the neighbors that my children would play in their front yard." And so if there's so much humanity there, I was like, "Okay, we have a lot we can work with." And I actually got very optimistic and hopeful, which I didn't anticipate in writing the story.

What did you anticipate in writing the story? What was your goal when you heard that voice? Was there any kind of vision of what this story was meant for?

I always say that humanity shines brightest in the darkest of nights. That's sort of my slogan. It's in many of the songs that I wrote for the play I did on this. I wanted to show how beautiful these people were. They'd share— if they'd get one piece of bread, which would mean the difference of life and death, they would always share it with strangers. I saw them as inspirational and as like rock stars. I think history has shown them as victims and pitiful. And I just thought that there was a lack of representation in that light, and that was my purpose in writing the story in the way I did. Right, it's not about Jews, it's about humanity. This happens to have happened to Jews, but this is in our country happened to Black people and, and all sorts. And all genocide is not exclusive to Jews in Germany. I mean, this is a problem. I was asked, what is your definition of success with my work. And I said, when people stop looking at, oh wow, look what happened to these Jews, I want them to say, oh, look what happened to these people. That's my definition of success.

Mm-hmm, yes.

It's written in the style of a novel. I wanted this to be read by everyone, a larger audience. There's cliffhangers and will they or won't they and things like that, but no, everything is That's absolutely true.

So the research, were you able to find documents?

Well, with my grandmother's book, it was a lot storytelling. My grandfather had already passed away, but he had written an account of his life, so a lot of the information I get of his experiences are from his exact words. And he had one of these weird photographic memories. Well, she actually had the date and the envelope and the rose petals, so actually, yeah, we do have documents of everything, believe it or not. There were a lot of files burned, of course, you know, at the end of the war.

And did you reach out to these institutions to vet check?

Oh, for sure. I've been working with my mother on this project, and I'm very much an artist in the cliché sense of the word, and she's very detail-oriented and things like that, so she researched and got in touch with— we have a foreword from the Leo Baeck Institute by the chief researcher.

You had a partner.

Yeah, my mom is my partner. Yeah, we all need a partner. It definitely helps because it's hard to be good at everything.

What happened that switched on your creativity?

Oh, the creativity is always there. I'm always doing something. I feel best when I'm juggling like 3 to 6 projects at once. No, I actually had written a book before. It was a novel. It came to me in a dream and I started writing. I couldn't get one literary agent to even return my calls or my emails, and I was at a dead end, and I was like, was I a fool? Like, did I misunderstand that?

What was that book about?

It was actually a lot of the same subject matter in terms of racism, discrimination, a lot sexism. It's being an outsider in a civilization. It's also heavily based in martial arts, actually, something I've practiced for more than 20 years.

Yeah, I met you in a kung fu class.

Right, yeah, down in Chinatown. It was in the backdrop of martial arts, but it's this girl's journey about rising above her limitations and finding her strength and her power in her own way, which is really not unlike the story that my grandmother, who was told she was nothing, and now she's becoming a star. She's like a— you know, we just had all these interviews and It's gone on the internet and everyone knows her and she's getting contacted all the time and it's beautiful that she found her voice and her strength and she's inspiring movements. And she's now 95.

She looks amazing. I saw that video of her.

She's short, but healthy, knock on wood. Yeah, she's great.

It sounds like she's gotten over the idea that strangers are going to hear about this book.

Oh well, she had no choice. Yeah, it became, just shortly after its release, it became an Amazon bestseller. So she had to come to terms with that pretty quickly. She feels very comfortable speaking to Americans. Mm-hmm. She is still very fearful when the journalists are German.

Oh, and you have been traveling to Germany.

Yes. Which gets her very nervous because— Has she been going with you? No. An emotional trip like that, she doesn't feel comfortable. Um, she's been back many times after the war. It's not that.

Mm-hmm. And you were telling me that they have been very open to your book in Germany.

Yes.

And you actually have gotten a lot more press there.

Yeah. About your writing. Yeah, it was translated there January of this year. It was released. I've really been embraced by members of the government, by teachers, by schools. They're actually trying to name the school my grandmother was forced to sit in the back row of and kicked out of, they're trying to name that very school after her. Which is just beautiful, so poetic. But then, you know, there's also opposition, which I expected a lot more of. I was actually shocked at how beautifully we were received. And again, it ties in with those feelings of hope when I wrote it. Some of them are the children of S.A. agents, believe it or not, and they're really trying to promote my work. They try to do better and they try to own, but I think they're not even aware of their antisemitism racism, it's just so basic and fundamental to them that they don't even realize it and they don't mean anything by it. And I see that through conversations and I can actually see when I was speaking to different journalists and different school children, I could see their minds changing right before me. Wow. Like one journalist actually said, "Oh, I understand you're trying to come across as normal." And I'm like, "Whoa!" Because I was making a totally different point, but that's what he got out of it. He's like, "Wow, she's She's normal. He's like, oh, so in telling this you're trying to be normal. And I said, oh, okay, hold on.

Could that be maybe translation?

No, because I have many stories. No, I have many stories about that.

It wasn't just like, you know, some German words are just great.

No, he was very ashamed actually.

Oh, he was?

And I said, excuse me, I said, no, we are normal. We are people. I see. And then his face got red. He's like, I'm so sorry.

Aye si.

He really liked me, and that's when I was like, wow, so this is really— a lot of it is just a lack of exposure. Mm-hmm. He wrote a beautiful article and really supported it, but he didn't think Jews were normal human beings.

Until maybe he met you.

Until he met me. Like, it terrified my mother. She's like, oh my God! But I'm like, no, that's an unmade thing.

Why did it terrify her? Oh, that people are still—

Oh my God, that they're still abiding by the old Nazi propaganda. And I was like, "No!" I said, "That was amazing! That was so exciting!" Because I just changed his mind. Yeah, it was an interview, but not for a newspaper, but for the evening news. And they did a whole segment on me. This is being televised. I wonder how many other people, just through seeing this, will also react in the same way he did. It's very, very rewarding. And it's opposite. I was always running away from it because it was so sad, the subject matter. And now I'm really running towards it because I see how much good it's putting out into the world. From my experience of being around survivors is that everybody experiences it through their character. For example, my grandmother, she still has such a faith in people and she has understanding and compassion. My grandfather, his experiences were a lot worse than hers. He had tremendous anger. Mm. You know, would wake up every night screaming and with trauma.

It's hard to believe that there could be a filter for that kind of experience though.

Like I said, my grandmother still can't believe, like, when someone's mean to me, she's like, "No!" And I'm like, "Really, Grandma? That shocked you?" That's amazing. Yes, she's really like that. Even though I was raised observant, I'm not at all. People ask me, "Well then why put them in Hebrew school and why have a bar mitzvah?" And I said, "For their Jewish identity, because in my experiences," The world will always tell you that there's something wrong with you because you're a Jew. People are very vocal about Jewish people, and it's usually in a negative light. And I wanted them to really understand who they were as Jewish people and have a very positive sense of their identity. So it was very important for me to expose them. And then as they get older, they can make their own choices in terms of who they marry or if they're observant, but I was obligated to, to show them the positivity and understanding of what it means to be Jewish.

Well, definitely those, um, the bar mitzvah and bat mitzvahs. I, I wish I was Jewish. I mean, such a wise and amazing thing to do, celebrate them at that age. But they also have an Italian side, right? So do they—

very, from a very strong— Garibaldi, the famous Italian general that unified Italy, is a relative of my husband's. So they're very, very Italian.

Wow, so they have, they have history on both sides. Yeah. So do they get in touch with their Italian side as well?

Oh my God, especially with the cooking. Yes, yes. I don't know if you've seen my children, but they are enormous wrestlers, muscular wrestlers. Like, they're lean 220. I mean, it's unbelievable. And that's really because my husband is like, all right, you know, I love you and all, but you better learn how to cook Italian dishes or else, you know. So I was— I'm very involved.

So what wins out, the mozza balls or the meatballs?

So yeah, well, they love both. For us, like, everyone was like, oh my God, one thing is to date an Italian or like outside of your, your ethnicity and your religion, but another thing is to marry. What about the children? I mean, listen, my husband and I have been together 25 years. We fought But it was never about religion or ethnicity or anything. That was like the one thing we've never fought over. I don't think we've even had a discussion. Like, I mean, it's like such a non-issue.

It's just like, who's taking out the garbage?

Yeah, exactly. I always really admire and respect somebody that would actually marry into, um, the Jewish faith, being that you bear a huge responsibility because we are targeted throughout throughout the world. For them to take on that burden, I really admire someone who would take that on voluntarily. That's interesting. Yeah.

Did he understand that when he was dating you? Did he have other Jewish girlfriends?

I was actually his first girlfriend. Oh yeah, wow.

Yeah, you need to write a love story. I think that's next.

And did his family have any issue with you guys being Jewish or No, absolutely none. That's wonderful. Yeah, like I said, it was a total non-issue. It was never a big deal. I mean, Christmas trees are beautiful and like gifts are fun.

Smells good too.

And like Easter is so beautiful and I love the cooking and like, I mean, we just, we just enjoy it. I mean, there's so much beauty in the world and we can either focus on the ugliness or the differences, or we can focus on and enjoy what people do in a beautiful way. And integrate it. I think that's the best way to live life in general.

How is this affecting your boys, the work you're doing? How do they feel about it? Were they like, "You didn't ask us if you can do this," or—

I'll just say, obviously they think I'm like the coolest thing in the world. It's like, and I'm like, "Oh my God, you're teenage boys and you think I'm the coolest thing in the world?" That's so great. Yeah, they, they love it.

Do you care about who they're gonna end up with? Their Italian or Jewish or Black or Asian or—

I don't care about really— my boys, I mean, in some ways they're similar to me, but in other ways they're just completely different people. And I've always raised them to just be the best versions of themselves. Whatever works for you. And even my grandmother, she's like, how do you do it? How do you get along with your children so well? You know, like, because we actually have like a great time together. We really and we enjoy it, and my grandmother's like, "How? What do you do? Do you never criticize them?" I'm like, "Oh no, I criticize them!" Like, with love, I feel that's a spiritual thing. I think that's something divine and not to be interfered with.

Where do you think you got all of this courage and perseverance from?

Well, that's, that's a really easy answer.

Some of it from gymnastics?

Oh, that's for sure, yeah.

Discipline? Yeah.

Discipline. I— it's actually, that's a very easy question for me to answer because the one thing that my mother did always say in reference to the Holocaust is that if Grandma and Grandpa could survive that, surely what you're going through is not so bad. And that was when a boy didn't like me back, that was when I got a bad test grade, and that was also more Specifically, a few years ago I was very ill and I had to go through really hard treatment. It wasn't good, and my mother would say, "Well, it's not the Holocaust." And I said, "Yeah, it's not even close, so there's no doubt that I'm gonna get through this." It's something, it's like a mantra I say to myself all the time. Even when my boys think they're too weak weak for something, I say, listen, you come from good stock, like, you'll be all right. And they're like, oh, that's true. To survive the Holocaust, you were people that were physically, emotionally, and spiritually very, very strong.

Resilient.

Resilient.

They had a joyful life in America.

Absolutely. Surrounded by family and friends. The way they had to justify surviving and survivor's guilt was that God selected them for a reason and for a purpose. I guess sometimes it maybe takes 70, 75 years to see what that purpose is, but my grandmother is realizing that now, and she feels really good about what her experiences and her story is now contributing to the world. Mm-hmm.

This is hard work though, right?

I was always treated by all my teachers and peers as someone who was very stupid, didn't have any talent, would never amount to anything.

Did you have a learning disability or because you were different you liked to—

I was always different and even really not in any obvious way. I actually tried to be normal, which only I think accentuated how different I always was.

You were in a community where there was plenty of Jewish people and you were You're safe, but you always felt different.

Yeah, it wasn't based on my religious affiliation or the color of my skin. It was just something very strange. Well, that's why it's a cliché. Yeah, I was just— I never belonged anywhere. The things I would say or just the way I would see life.

When you first heard that voice say, "You need to write about this," and you said, "No, no, no," and you felt horrified by it, that's no longer there.

It's no longer there. That's not to say I don't get scared and overwhelmed.

And what do you get scared about?

About the enormity of this task I feel I've been given. It's a huge responsibility, and to tell it truthfully, to tell it, to— I'm now becoming the face of it, and it's like, who, me? You know, I, you know, how did that happen? So I do get scared, but I never let let being frightened or overwhelmed ever deter me. I will always say yes and then figure it out later. That's with everything in life, and so far it served me well.

Because you feel like it's a challenge?

Hmm, I've never been asked that. Exactly, why do I feel that way? If it scares me but I want to do it, that means the reason I'm not doing it is because I'm either afraid of failure or I'm afraid of making I'm making a fool out of myself, or everything for the wrong reason. But what's the right reason for doing it is that it's an opportunity, it's a— to do something good, to challenge myself. And I don't want fear to ever be a determining factor or a ruling factor in my life. That's a very conscious decision. Honor those fears. That's number one. I feel that otherwise I repress, and then that will always show itself in some way. Some other way, and that's negative. I usually vocalize it. I try to discover, well, what are the origins of that, and does that still serve me today? And a lot I find come from the early childhood of a teacher saying, "You're nothing, this and that." And like, who is that teacher to determine what I'm doing now in my 40s, in my life? And I— it neutralizes it. So I meditate probably a good 45 minutes every day. Not including active meditation. I was taken in at 19 by a kung fu master who really taught me the ways of certain Eastern philosophies, and I've been exposed to so much that I generally just tailor it to myself and what works for me. So it's probably my own brand of meditation, but it's probably a combination of different disciplines. So in answer to your question, is that— is my work work and this purpose exhausting. It's actually just the opposite. It really happened around the time I had children. The more I express who I really am and, and pursue it, it gives me life. Can't imagine ever growing tired of doing what I feel I'm on earth to do.