67 Highest Potential: Relationships

Hello, welcome to RxChill Pill. Meditate your brain to resilience. Resilience is about bouncing back from setbacks by adapting and learning so you can thrive through life's challenges. Your time is precious, so I work to deliver research-backed tools to boost you and your family's resilience. Each of the episodes strive to leave you with an action or meditation prescription that you can apply immediately to your life. I'm Dr. Juna Bobby MD, a board-certified physician and mom of two amazing kids, and my purpose is to make the neuroscience of wellness accessible to you and your family's everyday life. Because when I became a mom, I wanted to do everything possible to empower my children with healthy mental and physical habits. This wasn't something that I had growing up, so I had to learn how to create a healthy and happy home life. I'm definitely not aiming for perfection. But I can honestly say that the mind-body skills I learned transformed my family's life. After years of training, I fully transitioned into teaching mind-body medicine, leaving one of the most prestigious private practices in New York City so I could dedicate my time to creating and teaching the science of resilience. My almost decade-long experience teaching high-performing students of all ages have led to the creation of my Brain Boss Planner and accompanying digital course. I'm so excited to say that this has rolled out to its first charter school and is slated to roll out to more schools coming this year. I'll be telling you a lot more about that coming up, as well as the stress management and resiliency training programs for parents, educators, frontline healthcare workers. To find out more about these digital courses, go to mindbodyspace.com and sign up for our newsletter. A portion of all proceeds go to those students in need. Today is my monthly episode with my brilliant and amazing friend Fiona Merton. She's a chartered psychologist in London, and she works with C-level executives across all industries. Today we're going to talk about relationships and how we tend to find people in mysterious and not so mysterious ways.

Hello Fiona, how are you today?

I'm good, thanks Juna. How are you?

I'm so excited to talk to you about relationships today, and you wrote an awesome book called Mirror Thinking. And since February, the biggest holiday is Valentine's Day, I thought it would be a great month to talk about compassion and love and even romantic love and how we find our partners Sounds good. Um, so I thought that you might have some insight on that.

Yeah, well, I actually, um, wrote about it as well for my first book that I haven't published, about attraction and love and how we actually move through a phase from the attraction phase through to the, to the love and the lifelong relationship phase, which are quite different in terms of the chemical reactions in the brain. But then with the mirror thinking piece, there's the attachment style that a baby forms with a mother is similar to the attachment style and mechanisms that we actually use and form in romantic relationships.

Really? You mean psychologically, the attachment part?

So the mechanisms within the brain. So the mirroring of a child, part of the bonding of a child and a mother or a child and a father is, is the mirroring and the triggering of empathy. And that's what's then built on in later life in romantic relationships.

So they've looked at the neural system involved in romantic love, and basically it involves areas of the brain that are involved in addiction. In fact, the neural correlate shows that love is not an an actual emotion. It's a goal-oriented behavior, which is super interesting.

It's pretty interesting.

Yeah, yeah. Well, anyway, so maybe you can give us a little insight on the mirroring and how do we choose people. Like, I know you talk about how to choose mentors, but can we relate to how we might be choosing our romantic partners if it were healthy?

Obviously, when we're in relationships, we begin to mirror more than we realize. I think we, you know, there's a whole load of— I'm not a relationship expert, but I would say there's different ways in which people approach relationships. They're either looking for something that's very similar to what they grew up with without being consciously aware of it, or they can be looking for something that they feel they're lacking in themselves. So if, for example, someone's shy, they might look for someone who's very extroverted and very confident. Um, there were all sorts of different attachment styles. But once we're within that relationship, we do begin to morph and become more like one another, particularly in long-term relationships, as we mirror our attitudes and our values and our way of being to the person that we're in that relationship with.

So it's true that over time you do actually start to become similar. Yeah, in what ways do you think? I mean, you definitely hold on to your own self during that relationship, but perhaps growing together within your values or the way you think or the way your opinions form. Is that what you're talking about mostly?

Absolutely. If, yeah, in a healthy relationship. But there are other, there are other things like, um, It's very difficult, for example, if someone is trying to drink less, to drink less if their partner is drinking less. It can be difficult to— it's really simple, they seem really obvious, but to eat healthy food if their partner's not eating healthy food. And that's not just about the meal preparation, it's about seeing, you know, you, you go to a restaurant when we were allowed to go to restaurants and you sit opposite someone and they order You know, they order fries and burger and you're, you're sort of sitting there looking at your salads and you say, "I really want fries and a burger." And so you pinch some fries off their plate or next time you order fries and a burger because if they're having it, why shouldn't you?

So that's that mirroring behavior or that influence, right? And it's funny because there has been research with the idea that if you live with somebody who is overweight, you might become overweight in time. But it's not the opposite. You don't get skinnier because you're living with a skinny person.

You're likely to get fitter though if you're living with someone who's fit and more active.

Yeah. Healthy skinny, I'd like to— or health— maybe I shouldn't use the word skinny. Healthy. A healthy weight with healthy habits. Okay. So going back to the neural correlates, so these emotional intensities that we form, it's basically in the midbrain. It's not even in our cortical brain. It's an area— some of the areas that light up are called the ventral tegmentum, which is in the midbrain, which has nothing to do with our thinking brain. And it also involves the motivation physiology in our brain. So it involves the dopamine circuit, the ventral tegmentum. The caudate nucleus, all of these areas. And you can have, you can have symptoms like sleeplessness, cravings. And this again goes back to an addictive component to an intense romantic love, especially in the beginning.

Yeah. And it's—

I think they've looked at it under— in the fMRI studies.

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? And it's like you say, that it's the part of the brain that we're not— it's not our rational brain, it's not our thinking brain, it's not our prefrontal cortex where we're making sort of really considered decisions. It's, it's like something else has taken over and is operating on our behalf. And you can see that. You can see it when people are falling in love. People at the peak of their reproductive capability have a need to quickly identify an appropriate partner.

Hmm.

And so our brain evolved to quickly respond to someone who could be a successful love interest. So releasing various neurotransmitters to focus our attention and enable us to take action towards a fertile mate.

So a goal. Yeah, biological, genetic-oriented goal.

Yeah, exactly. So when a man sees an attractive young female, um, dopamine's released, which, like you said, is also released when taking cocaine. Or having chocolate, which leads to food. Yeah, exactly. And actually, I haven't written this here, but dopamine is, is often referred to as sort of the happy or the, you know, the, the feel-good, but it actually is more involved— and you may correct me on this, Juna Bobby MD— but from what I've read, it's more involved towards the actual, the orientation toward that goal and the motivation toward it rather than the actual attainment of that goal. Yeah, I mean, dopamine, so it's, it's the anticipation of the goal rather than the goal itself.

Yes, I just— I read a paper on that recently also, that it— yeah, that's what it's really— I mean, neurotransmitters also affect different organs in a different way. So even if it's the same actual neurotransmitter, it could have different effects. But what you're talking about with the dopamine, uh, being involved in the motivation itself towards a certain goal is correct. It's true. Yeah, it feels good to go towards a goal, so it motivates you. Like, emotions motivate us to actually take action, like you were saying, taking action towards somebody who might be a potential mate.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So there's, there's interesting research as well that, um, psychologist Wendy Airdale and Mark van Voogt worked with Robin Dunbar, who's an evolutionary anthropologist at the University of Oxford. They showed that the level to which men will unconsciously show off to women through, through generosity. So basically, um, men aren't aware that they will be more generous when someone of the opposite sex is watching them than if someone of the same sex or, and, or no one is watching them. And, and they will do even— they will be even more generous. So when the, the, that woman is deemed attractive.

Mm-hmm. So even trying to look good. Yeah. So even flexing those generosity and, and compassion muscles.

Yeah. And I mean, what's interesting is young men will show off. So young men are quite testosterone-driven, and, and there's, there's research, there's some interesting research around that. But older men, when they've got lower levels of testosterone, they're still wanting to, they're still wanting to impress, and they do that through generosity unless taking testosterone, of course. Oh yes, that's true. And then they might sort of, you know, flex their muscles.

So from your insight on mirror thinking and mentorship and relationships in that way, can you relate some of that to how we would identify— or I know a lot of people want to meet the right person, right? Because we don't want to fall for the wrong person, which happens to a lot of people. Is there any insight on how we can fall for the right person, especially when we're young and driven by all our hormones?

Well, what's interesting is I think it's actually, it's not mirroring of the person that we're looking for, but it's watching. And a case, part, a big part of mirroring is observing and watching and seeing how other people do things. And so it's looking at successful relationships and that might be, if your parents split up, it might be looking at an uncle and an aunt or a grandparent, um, relationship, or it might be a friend's parents, and looking at the way they treat each other and they talk to each other and what it is you like about that. And that sets a different expectation in how you're treated within your relationship if, if you've only seen parents that's divorced. I mean, if I use myself as an example, in hoping that my mother is not going to tune into this, um, my mum and dad split up when I was 7, and then my mum, you know, has married someone who— she's had a long marriage, but they, they argue so much. And I would look at what I thought I didn't want to do, so I literally count— I learned to counter mirror the mistakes that my mum had made when I was looking through my own relationship. And so I think a lot of it is not saying we're looking in the mirror in terms of the relationship we find, but we are looking for relationships around us, even fictional relationships, that provide what we think would be successful to us, what it would provide us with, what we need.

I love that.

And we're using that to look for your mate.

Yeah, I love the, the counter-mirroring. That is everything I did growing up, you know, that I don't want to be this way or I don't want to have these kind of relationships. So I know a lot of kids counter-mirror their parents, you know, if things are going not so smoothly at home. So that, that is a motivation in itself, right? You can use that.

And it actually provides us, uh, because it's often more conscious than just mirroring, because mirroring happens all the time, um, and very subconsciously most of the time. We're not conscious that we're picking up behaviors, attitudes, beliefs, or, um, norms, as it were. But when we counter-mirror, we are conscious. So we've made a conscious decision not to behave a certain way. Which makes it more powerful in many ways.

That's a great point. And back to the point you made about even fictional relationships, you know, I love watching Brady Bunch. I don't know if you know that show from the '70s.

I do.

Yeah. And I love that show, the whole family dynamic. And, you know, so I always thought of that like as how a family should be.

But you see, it's really important things like that because It's basically the template by which our expectations are set, and that then leads to certain behaviors and ways of doing things. So it's really important that as young people we have that template, and that template might be pieced together through a bit of fiction, a bit of, um, my friend's parents behave like this and I really like the way they do that, but it's piecing that together to to create our own expectations.

Interesting.

So I know you did an episode about visualization recently. So do you think that that could be helpful if you try to visualize or try to imagine who your partner should be, who would be nurturing for you, who would be right for you? Do you think that's helpful? That could be helpful?

Can somebody do that in a systematic way?

You'd have to be careful because I think I know, just simply because I think if you— so people can create unrealistic people. I know that when my— when I was in my 20s, because, because I just observed things, because I'm— that's what I do, and that's why I do what I do. But I used to look at my friends who would have those checklists, and they would be the ones who were most often disappointed. They were disappointed in the relationships that they ended up in. They couldn't find the right guy. If you have— I think you have a checklist of values and attitudes. Yeah. So if you say, I want to meet someone who's generous, who's thoughtful, who's empathic, um, yes, those are great, those are global. But you might meet someone who's generous, thoughtful, and empathic who's 5'2" or who's 6'5", um, but they may be— you know, if you'd had in your little checklist that it could only be someone that's 6 foot, you would rule out those to other people.

And so I think—

so try not to go for the physical or the tangible.

Yeah, I think, and I think it's, I think it's looking more at the global, um, the attitudes, the values, and what you would want to be shared attitudes and values. And those are the things that many successful relationships are built on, both within the business environment through to romantic personal relationships. But I think if you get too specific on the other factors, you're more likely to become disappointed because you're not going to find someone that ticks all the boxes.

So get flexible around that. I guess because of all those, um, little romantic novels that people read, it's always describing the person physically, you know. Yeah. And those romantic movies.

Well, that's, that's why it's exciting, isn't it? And that comes back down to the, that dopamine and, and the motivation, but that's all very physical. And actually a relationship, it's moving beyond that, isn't it?

Yes, yes.

Cool.

And so let's end with, um, how did you know you found the one when you got married?

It's funny because, because it's—

and hopefully Chris is not listening.

Oh, is he? He knows this, it's fine. Um, okay, so I had got to the point where I hadn't met a person that I was thinking that I want— I thought if I don't find someone that I want to marry, I just won't have children or whatever, because that's fine. And I got to the point where I was like, I don't think I'm gonna get married because I can't find the right person. And, um, so I started going out with Chris, and weirdly, I did actually think really early on, um, I, I want to marry this guy, and But I didn't. I didn't. The only person I told was my mum and my stepdad, and they got very worried because they'd never heard me say anything like that before. My mum didn't because my mum really likes him, but my stepdad for some reason did. And then Chris proposed, and it did actually take me completely by surprise, and I said yes, which took me completely by surprise. I'd been proposed to by two other boyfriends and I'd said no.

Wow, you're gonna have to tell everybody the secret sauce to that, being proposed to 3 times, probably not wanting to be involved.

It's just that allure, isn't it, of not wanting to be involved? And, um, and then I came home. We were— he proposed to me in Italy while we're on holiday, and all my friends are like, wow, Fiona, you're getting married? And Chris was like, why is everyone saying this? And it's like, because I always said I'm not gonna get married. And he said 'Thank God I didn't know that, because I wouldn't have asked you if I'd known that, because I would have thought you were going to say no.' It's a good thing he didn't talk to your friends. Yeah, he didn't talk to my dad. You know, there's— because my dad just gets so excited, he would have told me, and he knew my dad well enough to know that. But Chris and I, it's interesting because we met at work, and it turned out that our dads used to work together Really?

That's so interesting.

Oh, his dad was a fighter pilot in the Royal Air Force, and my dad was in the Royal Air Force, but they didn't meet in the Royal Air Force. After that, my dad would check for safety of aeroplanes, so he would certify them and say whether— and Chris's dad became a test pilot. And so Chris's dad would test fly planes that my dad then certify. And we found this out after we'd met each other and started going out.

Um, and but they never knew each other?

Yeah, they did. So that— so I mentioned—

oh, they—

yeah, so then I mentioned the name to my dad and he's like, yes, I know him. And they were like two old women when they got together. They'd be like, oh la la la la.

So there you go. Then you found somebody that you felt familiar with. Maybe there was some sort of connection there. I mean, your dads had a lot in common.

They did have a lot in common. They did.

Right? Yes.

Yeah, they did have a lot in common.

And but you guys met at work, which is so fascinating because another guest I'm having on for February, which is the Valentine's month, is John Berger, who just wrote a book called Make Your Move.

Oh, cool.

And he makes this argument that you should meet your, your long-term mate at work.

Oh, does he?

And so, yeah, Paul and I are in the book. Are you? We're not called Paul and Juna Bobby MD under a pseudonym, but he interviewed us for the book because we met at work as well. That's so cool. We're both doctors. Yeah. Yeah. And I have to say, after we moved in together, had two children, we bought a house in the suburbs, we moved out of the city, and we were moving and we were going through our things and we found a black stapler because we were, you know, minimizing and trying to throw things out. We both had a black stapler. Each of our staplers were from our fathers and they both had their names like written out in whiteout on the stapler.

Wow.

And we were just looking at it and he and I had both kept our dad's staplers for decades because we both lost our fathers when they were in their 50s.

I'm sorry.

And we had their staplers.

That's so funny.

And his dad was, you know, he was in the Air Force, I think, um, Air Force or Army in the United States. And my dad, because I'm a first-generation South Korean, my dad was in the Army in Korea.

That's amazing.

And they were both, both businessmen. I don't know, maybe it was something people did in the '60s. They write with their whiteout on their office equipment.

Isn't that funny though?

It was crazy.

It really is bizarre.

And his dad and my dad both passed away at the age of 52, sadly, from alcoholism.

Oh, that's so sad.

Yeah, so just talking about similarities.

It's really strange, isn't it? And it's Yeah, right. It's really strange. And I mean, the similarities with you and I— what do you call yourself? Wajian? My kids are— no, you don't.

My kids are Asian, but I, I—

and then my kids, my kids are Wajian as well.

Well, no, they're all— well, Chris is Wajian, and I guess your kids are Asian. Yeah, white Asian. Anyway, so, um, so it's just crazy because I mean, Paul and I grew You know, I was born in Korea. I moved here when I was in first grade, and Paul grew up here, and there's no similarities except we have so much in common, right?

It's so funny, isn't it? Because I mean, in, in all seriousness, I think there is something, isn't there? There's, there's a shared value set. There's a shared, shared attitudes. Again, it's coming back to those things that are very core to who we are. You know, the fact that it was a stapler and it was whiteout in the same way, it was still the behavior was the same and what you took was the same because of the significance of it. It had the same significance for both your fathers. And it's really interesting. It's really touching as well.

Or maybe Paul and I both like to hold on to staplers. I don't know. We're cheap. We didn't want to buy a new stapler. Anyway, it's so interesting and I love this conversation, Fi.

I love it too.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much.

Okay.

That was my monthly chat with Fiona Merton. Her book, Mirror Thinking: How Role Models Make Us Human, is all about how parents, friends, teachers, relatives, even work colleagues are constantly shaping who we are. Fiona uses her experience and insight as a psychologist to empower us to leverage the mirror system to our advantage. You can shape the content of this podcast by letting me know what topics or questions you'd like to have addressed. Just go to mindbodyspace.com/podcast to opt in. When you opt in, you'll get extras from episodes like cheat sheets, worksheets, and special tips just for our newsletter subscribers. You can also simply email podcast@mindbodyspace.com at mindbodyspace.com, subject line Podcast Sign Up, and just write yes. If you appreciate the content and want to help, the absolute best thing you can do is to share. Text or email your friends, share on social media a link to your favorite episode, or use the sharing links on your newsletter. Good old-fashioned talking works too. Please share this podcast with all your friends, family, co-workers, anyone who believes in scientific method and are curious about natural ways to boost performance, health, mental and physical resilience for themselves or their kids. Thank you so much. And until next time, this is Dr. Juna wishing you and your family wellness.