82 Angela Duckworth Author of 'Grit': Part I. On Parenting

Hello and welcome to the Top Down Brain Rx Chill Pill podcast, where you can boost your resilience just by listening. Resilience is about bouncing back from setbacks by adapting and learning through life's challenges. Each episode strives to leave you with an action or a meditation prescription that you can apply immediately to your life. I'm Dr. Juna Bobby MD. I'm a board-certified physician, and my purpose is to make the neuroscience of wellness accessible to everyday life. Because when I became a mom, I wanted to do everything possible to empower my kids with healthy mental and physical habits. I'm definitely not aiming for perfection, but I can honestly say that the mind-body skills I learned transformed my family's life. After years of training, I fully transitioned into teaching mind-body medicine, leaving one of the most prestigious private practices in New York City so I could dedicate my time to creating and teaching the science of resilience. My almost decade-long experience teaching high-performing students of all ages at many schools, universities, including at the Juilliard Pre-College School in Manhattan, have led me to the creation of my newest courses, Plan to Soar and Soar Under Pressure. These are hybrid coaching and self-paced digital courses to make my tried and true courses widely accessible. They're available for partnering schools, organizations, and online for individuals. On topdownbrain.com. A portion of all proceeds go to those students in need. I am so grateful to have Angela Duckworth as my guest on this podcast. You've probably heard her name before because her TED Talk is one of the most watched TED Talks of all time. She is also the author of the well-known book on grit, The Power of Passion and Perseverance. She's also actually brilliant, personable, and generous. As a former math and science teacher in public schools in New York City, San Francisco, and Philadelphia, Angela became passionate about sharing her research on strategies for success with parents and educators to help kids thrive. Due to some technical issues and scheduling mix-ups, I ended up having not just one, but two conversations with Angela, plus a speed round of Q&A from parents. So I really lucked out. Anyway, the topic skipped around a bit, so it kind of made sense to split it up into 3 parts. This is part 1, where we talk about evidence-based parenting that supports kids' growth and grit. Hi, Angela, how are you?

I'm good, thank you.

Thank you so much for being here today.

I'm so happy to be here. I'm like happy for this conversation.

So Angela, I was listening to your podcast, "No Stupid Questions," which you co-host with Steven Dubner, and I listened to that episode about how to raise likable kids.

Yeah, I think somebody asked a question about brats, so we had to address it.

And I have to admit that I really love that episode because you described me.

Okay, good. Great.

So if you wouldn't mind just describing what you said on your podcast about the best type of parenting according to research.

Well, it's a pretty rock-solid finding, I think, that parents should be supportive and demanding at the same time, which sound like they're two different ends of one spectrum. Like, on one hand you could be supportive, on the other hand you can be demanding. And actually For a long time, that is what parenting research contrasted, like either be supportive or be demanding. Where is the magic spot on the continuum? But I think it's now clear that it's not two different ends of a continuum. It's actually like if you could imagine like an x and y-axis, you want to be in the top right quadrant, which is like very demanding and very supportive. And what that means— is that when your kid doesn't do something that they ought to have done, like cleared the dishes or written a thank you note, that you can tell them, like, you're falling short of what we need to do, and that's okay to be demanding. And at the same time, in many ways, you have to communicate to them that your love isn't contingent, that you're totally supportive, that they're the center of your universe, that you like them, So that's the combination. It's very hard to do, but that is what we're all, you know, that's what parents like you and me are aiming for, I think.

Uh-huh. I am still honing these behaviors and it's always a work in progress, but yes, that is my parenting style. And another thing you said that really resonated with me was that, was when you said that we really need to respect and honor their opinions and likes and dislikes.

Yeah. Support usually actually can be like sort of disaggregated into both being warm and loving, like, oh my gosh, you're so wonderful. Um, and respect. So, and respect for their autonomy. So if your, uh, kids, if they're of a certain age, you know, um, have different political views than you do, you know, or, you know, they have, you know, different desires for what they wanna do for their career or for their extracurriculars, respect for autonomy means that you don't just impose your views on, on them. And having grown up in a, Chinese-American family, my parents are both from China, the idea that kids would be able to have their own opinions and values and preferences, it was actually pretty— It was not the way my parents were raised, I think, but it's the way I'm trying to raise my own kids.

And that includes who they want to date too, right?

Yes. Or marry. Yes. And I married a white guy, so, like, you know, whatever. Yeah, so there are all these— You know, things that I think are frankly hard for a lot of parents to really give their kids autonomy. My parents, by the way, got much better, I think, at— much and much better as they got older and wiser, right, about how to give their kids more autonomy.

I think it's also really important to be consistent, right? Having consistent parenting styles and expectations.

Yeah, it's about consistency. It's also not about perfection. I mean, I don't think we need to model for our kids that we get everything right, which I know most parents are like, oh, I am so far from perfect. But I think it's okay to feel okay about that, right? Like, you know, if your kids, you know, go to bed at night thinking like, you know, my mom and my dad love me, they respect me, and, you know, they want me to grow, like, you know, they don't want me to like just— I'm not perfect, like I'm still evolving or whatever, whatever language they would use, then I think your kids are gonna be fine. They don't have to go to bed thinking like my mom and dad are perfect and they, you know, they said everything right today.

It's never too early to admit to your kids that you're human and not perfect.

Yes. Yeah. Never too early, never too late.

And what about your daughters? They're so sweet. When I saw them jump on and introduce you, I mean, I have a 16-year-old.

They can be sweet. Okay. So we have, we have teenage girls in our house. I think they're capable of being sweet. I think the pandemic is wearing on all of us. We're all ready to not be quarantining together.

And are you teaching them about grit all the time? Like, I'm always teaching my kids about resilience.

You know, I think they, you know, it's interesting, like, my daughters have both actually said to me that, like, that there's a lot of pressure in this house, right? Like, to achieve. And I said, like, why? Like, I literally don't even ask for your report cards. Like, I never said, like, you, but it's so implicit, right? It's just, you know, like, How could you not feel that pressure? You know, like my husband and I work really hard and we're not really relaxed people. We don't chill out that much. We don't like hang out that much. So I think I'm teaching them through example. And yeah, I think I am sometimes like dropping little mini lectures, like when they were little learning to practice piano or what, like they were, informed of the research on different kinds of practice and what kind of practice is most effective. So yeah, I guess you could argue that I'm teaching them. My high school senior is finishing out her remote senior year, or will start her remote senior year, I guess. We'll see what happens by the end of the year. And yeah, and then I'll be an empty nester.

One of them's in college already?

One of them's going to college and the other one is, yeah.

Wow, where's she going?

She's going to Harvard.

So my son is there.

So they can hang out. Or not hang out. I don't think they can hang out. I don't know if they're— no one's allowed to hang out.

Okay, well, congratulations. Are you happy that she's there?

Um.

So she's obviously a high achiever.

You know.

I'm sorry to tell you.

But, um. I guess I'm happy.

There's nothing wrong with being a high achiever. I'm sorry.

No, I don't think there's any apologies for that. Yeah, she's great and she's very intense and she's really passionate about— I mean, 18-year-olds should be given a lot of freedom to change their minds and change their direction, but she's currently very passionate about kids and education and public education. So I am really excited. She is taking a class this fall from the person who was, you know, among the most influential in my education. So the person that I— whose— her name is Kim Roseth. I took her class. As an undergraduate, Kay Mercez, and I took her class and I was like, education, I'm gonna do education, like, and now my daughter's taking her class, so it's nice to come full circle. Wow. They're pretty, um, they're— I think they're both trying to figure out, uh, you know, different things. I think, um, the younger one wants to figure out what she's interested in. I was just talking to her this morning at breakfast and I said, you know, your age, it's really rare to like really have very specific and narrow interests. Like, it's, it's not developmentally typical to like know what you want to do.

But it's— but some people do, right?

Absolutely, some people do. But I just want to say, like, out of 1,000 kids, how many kids know when they're 17 what they're going to be doing when they're 37? It's just like, you know, 17-year-olds shouldn't feel like, oh no, I don't know what I'm gonna do. Like, that's not, you know, that's not what your job is. Your job when you're 17 is to be sampling a lot of things. And you know, everything you do, I think you should try to learn the most and do as well as you can. But I don't think you should think like, oh gosh, I don't know what I'm doing with my life. You're 17. Of course you don't know what you're doing with your life. Yeah.

My next question for you, Angela, is something that's on my mind and a lot of other parents' minds.

You can ask me anything you want.

If you had to pick 3 top traits that you would want a teenager or a kid or anyone for that matter to have in these challenging times that we're in right now, What would they be? Which overlaps with the other question of what components of grit do you think are the most important? For example, grit has components of, let's say, curiosity. And in your book Grit, you talk about passion and purpose. And what about humor and compassion?

Yeah, I mean, I think that— maybe I'll broaden your question to character, right? So it's not a word that everyone loves, but I think, you know, when Aristotle Aristotle and Maria Montessori and Martin Luther King Jr. used the word character, I think they meant it broadly to be, you know, the person that you show up in the world as and, like, everything that you think, feel, and do that benefits other people at least as much as it benefits you. So if I broaden that out, then it's not just grit. So, like, maybe I'll give you my 3-part answer for, like, how to lead a good life, at least according to, um, the scientific research that I know about. So one is, I'll just start with the most important, I think, is that I do think you have to have strengths of heart, right? And these are character strengths that you could pick which of these, like, you know, you really wanna make yours, but gratitude, kindness, generosity, social intelligence, but they're really about like connecting with other people. So if you wanna lead a good life, I think absolutely you have to have a way to connect with other people in a way that clearly puts them first. The second thing is strengths of mind, like curiosity, like you said. Also imagination and creativity, intellectual humility, decision-making. These are all like, you know, mental strengths that I think, you know, you have to find a way to like always have a fertile learning, open mind. And then the third thing is what I study, and I kind of gave them to you in the order that I even think that they're important, right? Like heart, mind, and will. The things that I study, like delayed gratification, self-control, goal setting, planning, grit, optimism. And I think those are important too. But I think if you ask me, like, as a mom or as just a human, like, you know, when you wake up in the morning, like, you know, what are you trying to do? What do you want your kids to try to do? Like, I hope they spend every day in some way exercising a strength of heart A strength of mind and yeah, maybe in bronze medal place, a strength of will.

So heart first then.

I think heart first.

And we all know that if we give other people our hearts, it also helps us.

I think, you know, my mom is 85 and she has been a model for me of somebody who is— I mean, my mom literally is the kindest person I've ever met and she is Somebody— I will say, like, the universe always takes care of Teresa Lee. And I think that if you're like that kind and like that kind of, you know, completely guilelessly generous, right? She doesn't think like, ooh, if I do this for Juna, then she'll— no, she's just nice. Like, then, you know, other people will, and they always have, like, rushed to take care of you. So, you know, I think when you are somebody who has like a lot of heart heart. Yeah, I mean, I don't want you to be a doormat, right? And I think a lot of us can be almost like martyr-like sometimes, but, but I think in general it's a good rule to like live life and like, um, and help other people. And like, you know, you don't have to worry about yourself, other people take care of you.

So it sounds like she had that amazing, boundless giving kindness without any sort of resentment. Where do you think she got this?

You know, such a good question.

Um, she was an immigrant, right?

She was an immigrant. She was the oldest of I think 13 kids, although those were the generations where people literally lost count of how many kids there were. But she immigrated here from China. She— I don't know. I don't know. When she describes her own mother, so my grandmother, my grandmother was many things. I don't think she was infinitely kind. I don't think she was— she was a little more shrewd, I think. Than my mom is. I don't know. Here's my guess though. I think so many things in life are, you know, we, we, um, begin down a path and then there's path dependency. Like, you know, I think it was rewarded in some way. Like when a kid is not kind or not very grateful, I think you just like, why aren't they? I think it's oftentimes because they get into these little tide pools, these little cycles where like the way they are gets rewarded. And I think my mom probably had some kind inclinations that were that were rewarded. You know, people smiled at her back and like they, you know, thanked her for whatever nice thing she did. So with our own kids, yours, mine, anyone's, I think we can think like, how do we get kids onto a cycle of like, you know, like that's positive? Because I do think those positive cycles exist.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. That was Angela Duckworth. She's the founder and CEO of Character Lab, a nonprofit whose mission is to advance scientific insights that help children thrive. She's a professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, and in 2013, she was named a MacArthur Fellow, AKA the Genius Grant. I learned so much from this conversation. Angela says that modeling is one of the most important ways that kids learn from us, and we've all heard this before, But how we act speaks volumes, and kids really pick it up, and they start to mirror how we handle situations, how we handle setbacks and failures, how we manage our emotions. But it's not what you might be thinking. It's not that we don't show our vulnerabilities. It's that they know that after the storm, after we cry or shout or have our little breakdowns, or big breakdowns, that we can say we're sorry, that we can share what we learned from our difficult experience, and that they can see us get back up, even maybe to a level higher than before. That's modeling resilience. We're all humans with emotions, and we make mistakes. The most important thing to model is that we can move forward, even with all our imperfections, And that in the next moment or next day, there's always another chance to do things differently with a new curiosity and the joy of learning new things. Angela shares research-backed advice for parents and teachers in her Tip of the Week. So sign up to receive it in the links below. You'll also find links to her website, her TED Talk, and to her podcast, No Stupid Questions. Tune in next Sunday for segment 2, where we talk about some of the things that really inspire Angela. In the meantime, go to toptownbrain.com, where you can sign up for our newsletter and get extra tips on resilience and peak performance. So please rate and review our podcast, and most importantly, share it with anyone who needs an extra boost of resilience. Until next time, wishing you and your family wellness.