83 Angela Duckworth Author of 'Grit': Part II. What Inspires Her and More on Resilience and Grit

Welcome to the Top Down Brain Podcast, where you can boost your resilience with research-backed tools to stress less and be happier as you move toward your highest potential. Resilience, the ability to bounce back from life's challenges faster and higher, is a skill that you can learn and practice. The episodes fall into 3 subcategories: Highest Potential, where you're going to get evidence-based tips from my monthly conversation with Fiona Murden, an award-winning author and Chartered UK Organizational Psychologist. Optimize Me, where you'll get cutting-edge practices for best health and peak performance from mind-body and lifestyle medicine. And Take a Chill Pill episodes will guide you through a relaxation response, an antidote to chronic toxic stress, so that you can soar under pressure. I'm Dr. Juna Bobby MD. I'm a board-certified physician and a mom of two amazing kids. 10 years ago, I left one of the most prestigious medical practices in Manhattan to dedicate my career to teaching the science of resilience to students who are curious about accelerating change in their own minds and lives for peak performance and wellness. My experience teaching high-performing students of all ages at Juilliard Pre-College, NYU, Columbia, and many other organizations have led me to the creation of my newest digital courses, Plan to Soar, Soar Under Pressure, and Top Down Resiliency training for individuals and organizations. And the great reviews are rolling in. Sign up for more info at topdownbrain.com. A portion of all proceeds go to those students in need. This is part 2 with Angela Duckworth, founder and CEO of Character Lab, a nonprofit whose mission is to advance scientific insights that help children, Thrive. She's a professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, and in 2013, she was named a MacArthur Fellow, otherwise known as the Genius Grant. Her TED Talk is one of the most watched with over 25 million views, and she's the author of Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance, a number one New York Times bestseller. She also co-hosts No Stupid Questions podcast with Stephen Dubner. What seemed like unfortunate Scheduling errors and technical issues turned out to work in my favor because I got to talk to Angela not just once, but twice. You mentioned that your dad would tell you that you were no genius, but of course you were named a MacArthur Fellow, otherwise known as the genius grant.

Yeah, I know. Yeah, my dad had high standards and, you know, I don't think he meant it malevolently, but he did. He was very fond of saying, you know, things like, oh, you know, your mother's no Picasso. 'Cause she was an artist and, you know, like, "Oh," like, we'd play piano, he'd be like, "Well, you're no Beethoven." I mean, just, I think he was sort of trying to be funny. I think he was also, like, remarking that his children weren't geniuses, and that was something he thought about. You know, he really was obsessed with high achievement.

Mm-hmm. And but now you are, right?

I know, right?

Isn't grit all about high achievement?

It is. And I have to say, like, I, you know, not to say that it's the only thing or even, you know, the most important thing, but— Yeah, I mean, I'll own it. Like, I, I really love studying human excellence. Like, I love seeing somebody who is like a world-class chef. Like, it's just so fun for me. Um, you know, the craft. I just watched, like everybody did, The Last Dance, but I feel like I was like the last person to watch The Last Dance. Have you, have you seen—

No, I'm the last person.

Have you heard about The Last Dance?

No.

So this Michael Jordan documentary, it's 10 —like 10 discrete chapters. And it's about— The Last Dance is the name of his last season of basketball, but it's actually like a biopic. So it takes, you know, this kind of timeline of the last season, but it kind of goes forward and backward in time. And, you know, like watching somebody, like, over the arc of a long career become better every single year, I mean, I guess I may be the legacy of my dad's obsession with achievement is that he had a daughter who then did grow up to be also obsessed with it. And again, it's not like, you know, I've got these two teenage girls. It's not like, oh my God, I hope Lucy and Amanda end up becoming, you know, world-class and like that's the only thing that matters. But I do think it's an amazing thing. And I love it. Like, I just, I really admire people who become better and better at what they do.

Well, it's just that tweaking, right? Somebody who doesn't get bored with the same thing over and over again. Did you ever see that sushi guy, the documentary?

Oh, Jiro Dreams of Sushi? Yes. Yeah, same thing, right? I mean, that's to me as a psychologist, what I want to study is, you know, because I don't know anything about basketball and I never will. And I don't know much about sushi aside from, you know, consuming it. And I don't know anything about swimming or skiing or, you know, You know, so many things that I study are just, I wanna see the through line, right? Like what does Michael Jordan have in common with Jiro? Like it's the same thing. And I think tweaking is a big part of it. I think that's maybe not the only thing, but it's a big part of it is like, you know, to never be done, to never feel like, you know, you've reached the limit of what you can do.

So then you're really talking about artists. 'Cause art, that's art, right? When you take something and you just make it.

Well, it's interesting. I was just talking to— You have to be obsessed to be an artist. Well, I don't know. People use the term differently. It's interesting. I was having a conversation with Gabrielle Hamilton recently. Actually, you mentioned this podcast that I have with Steven Dubner, and it was a conversation in the context of this No Stupid Questions context or podcast. And Gabrielle Hamilton, I was a big fan of for a long time because I loved her writing. So she writes about food and she is the owner of a restaurant in New York called Prune. And she said, "Oh, I think of cooking as a craft and not an art." So when she uses that, you know, she had a kind of like specific term, but I think whether you're talking about like art or craft or science, that there is something about, you know, trying to get better. I mean, you could say all these things are, You know, like things where there is better or worse, and these people always want to move in the direction of better.

So why did she say craft versus art? Like, what's the difference?

You know, it's really interesting to talk to her about. So she's a writer and she's a— she's a chef. Yeah. And, um, and she may at this point be equally known for both, but at one point she was certainly better known as a chef, right? So it's like wildly popular, critically acclaimed, tiny little restaurant in New York. And then of course she wrote these essays and books she writes for the New York Times now. So now she's both. And for her, she said, you know, food is more of— she was like, there's a certain lightness when she cooks. Like, she doesn't take it that serious. She's like, come on, it's food. You're going to eat it. Like, let's not take it so seriously. Whereas she was talking about like laboring to put words on the page and how like that may have been more of an art. I mean, I don't want to butcher, so to speak, what she really meant. By that. But anyway, these phrases certainly have like different connotations for different people. Yeah, I think both art and craft are a lot of work, and craft can become art. Depends on how you use the term. But yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I think in art there's this connotation of creativity and like originality, and craft doesn't necessarily have that. So, so maybe that's partly what people mean. I'm not sure.

Yeah, I think of like knitting Knitting is a craft or like needlepoint.

Definitely could be an art, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think when I, for me it's like when you take it to another level, then it becomes art.

Like when you take it to the level of obsession and expression, I think when it becomes like expression. Yeah.

Like I saw this exhibit of, of this woman, she like beaded an entire kitchen. What? Like beaded, like I'm gonna send you a picture of it, but she took thousands of beads.

Yeah, I wanna see that.

And it was at the Whitney and it was an entire kitchen. She beaded even like the cereal in her kitchen, the oven, all of it. It took her 3 or 4 years.

Oh my gosh. Can she still use the kitchen? No, it's all like, so it's now like an art exhibit, sort of. Now it's art. Yeah. Well, there you go. Uh, very cool. I can't wait to see that.

Or that Chinese artist. See, I can't remember any of their names right now, but I will put it in the notes if I air this. But the Chinese artist who took all of his mother's belongings, including her house, and put it in the MoMA.

Oh, like in the MoMA. And then it was art. Yeah. Oh, that's very interesting. Yeah. My mom's actually an artist, as I said, you know. Yeah. So, yeah, I'll have a conversation with her about that.

So is there anything that you're obsessed with lately? Like books, art, TV shows?

Okay, let's see. Well, first of all, I just finished David Chang's memoir. And by David Chang, you mean the famous chef of Momofuku and— I'm like slightly obsessed with David Chang. And it's a great story. And you might think like, oh, you know, Angela's obsessed with David Chang because because he's really gritty and really excellent at what he does, and that would be why I started getting obsessed with David Chang. Also, I ate some of his food in his restaurants and I was like, "This is amazing." But his memoir, to my surprise actually, is incredibly honest, and it's honest about his mental health issues and his many imperfections, at least in his own words. So anyway, I recommend it. And I think I'm like obsessed with like how you would catalyze some of the growth that he describes having, where he learns, you know, to manage his grit, to like, you know, be more empathic and more honest. And I feel like what my job is as a psychologist is to like understand how to reverse engineer that growth and help other people grow a little more intentionally and a little more rapidly. Than just sort of like, "Oh, and then life happened and I learned all these things." I love it.

I love that whole description and I definitely want that speedway to learning all this without having to wait till I'm 90 years old and wise. But this evidence that we can actually change our character, that's a fairly new concept, right?

Yeah, it is. And I, like, when I went to school, it was 1992 when I got my bachelor's degree in neurobiology and the kind of received wisdom was that, you know, there wasn't a lot of meaningful plasticity in the brain after a pretty early age. It was based on, I think, early research on cats and like, you know, the visual system of cats is like, oh, you know, the visual system developed so early, you know, but human beings and our neurons, you know, especially those outside of our visual system, it turns out, like they are always remodeling connections and it is possible to change in meaningful ways. I think, for example, if anybody's gone to therapy, you know, they do a little reflection like, did you change? I mean, I went to therapy and I will tell you, like, I changed. So I think it's never too early, as you say, and I think it's also never too late.

And research basically shows that you could drive your own change. And I think that's what you're trying to do in part, right? To help people accelerate and intentionally create change in their own brains. I do.

I think people can, you know, and I don't want to be all like Pollyanna about it. No, but it's truly powerful. It is. Yeah. It is like, oh, you can— and I actually think, you know, people can change from like hearing something and then like, you know, that leads them to maybe read a book, then the book leads them to start in, you know, some other project. And absolutely, I think, you know, I'm definitely also an optimist about human nature, but I think there's a good deal of scientific evidence— to back us both up on that.

And for anyone who's out there listening who hasn't had the most nurturing experiences in their lives, what would you say to them?

You know, there are some investors who I've talked to who do venture capital who actually specifically look for the people who have had less than nurturing experiences and, you know, a fair amount of adversity because they feel like, oh, that person I don't have to worry about, like, because they know the adversities. Coming. I mean, you know, if you're going to ever do anything great, even if you're born into privilege, even if you're born into like the most high-functioning family in the world, like you're going to experience adversity. So a lot of investors tell me that they look for somebody who has had like a less than perfect life so that they know that when the future happens, that that person will have the skills, the resilience, the mindset to, um, to handle it. And I really honestly have never interviewed a single person who I would consider a paragon of grit, an exemplar of passion and perseverance, who doesn't have just a lot of stories of lots of chapters in their life where it was a dark chapter, it was a hard chapter, all kinds of dysfunctionality. And that was revealing to me. If you get to know anybody well, even your heroes, you realize that they're also like you. Lots of imperfections and, you know, mental health issues, like mistakes they make where you're like, wow, you did that. And, you know, embarrassments, people in their family that they don't get along with. So, so yeah, people are, you know, they could be your heroes, but, you know, they shouldn't be thought of as superheroes. Like, you know, we're all human.

Mm-hmm. So the next time I pitch some investors, I'll be sure to tell them about my adverse childhood experiences.

Yeah, you got to read the investment bankers, you know. Does that mean like when you introduce yourself in the first sentence, you want to start talking about your title? I don't know, but, but I think, but I think honesty is good. I think honesty is good.

I have to say, almost everyone on this podcast and people that I've been drawn to have an adversity story.

One of my graduate students who's now going to be a professor at University of Chicago, um, her name is Lauren Esquerz Swinkler, and one of her first studies was on what's called survivor mission, in which she interested in is, you know, one response to adversity is actually survivor guilt. And that's been well studied where you feel like, wow, why am I the only person who survived? And actually it's like, it creates a lot of negative— well, you feel guilty. You feel like you ought not to have, you know, survived a hurricane when you saw other people die. But she was interested in whether there was also potentially a very positive response, which is survivor mission, like to somebody who would have, you know, gone through you know, rape, who had been assaulted in other ways, who had gone through, you know, their own mental health crisis in some cases, and she found evidence to support this idea that you can use that to actually give you purpose. Mothers Against Drunk Driving, right, was, you know, born of tragedy, right? But Mothers Against Drunk Driving had a massive impact on the reduction of drunk driving. And so I think maybe if we think about our own particular wounds, and stories that we can say, like, well, maybe in fact, in that very realm where I, you know, really suffered, like, I will find some meaning and purpose by helping other people.

That would be in the realm of post-traumatic growth, right?

Yeah. I think a lot of post-traumatic growth, which you know about, but I'll just say for others, in the wake of trauma, of course, we've all heard by now of post-traumatic stress. Which is, you know, when you have an adverse response that can be lingering and you can be kind of hypervigilant for disaster and it can be very problematic. It's why it's called post-traumatic stress disorder. But there is very often a post-traumatic growth response instead of or even following post-traumatic stress, and that is to find meaning and to basically come out better than you would have otherwise. And a lot of people who, you know, suffer through illness or through other kinds of trauma will say that there was post-traumatic growth. Mm-hmm.

I know we're talking about like real deep trauma here, but we can also talk about the micro traumas that we have day to day, like the small social insults or the little things that happen that upset us during a typical day. Do you think that these could all be learning opportunities too?

Yeah, no, I think that's a really good point. I just taught a class on feedback, right? And I said, you know, I asked my undergraduates at Penn, so they're all, you know, Ivy League undergraduates, and I asked them like, in one word, how does it feel when you get positive feedback? And so they, you know, text it into their phone. They're like, great, proud, excited, validated, wonderful, happy, joyful. And then I said, you know, what does it feel like when you get negative feedback, right? 'Cause that's a small, it's not a trauma, I mean, it could, right?

It could build up in your mind, especially if you mull it over, over and over again, right?

Exactly. Like wounded, terrible, embarrassed, horrible, you know, like tired. And then I showed them this diagram from, you know, how psychologists actually think of like feedback when you have a goal and then you get feedback. And sometimes the feedback is positive, but sometimes it's negative. It's the same part of the diagram, which is like the— it's, it's just the part where you get information and, and you use that word. I think if we could frame every hour of every day, you know, the good days, the bad days, the times you come home and you're really proud, the times you come home and you're really discouraged, it's all information. And if you think to yourself, like, it's all learning, it's all information, I think it helps. I, I, I try to frame things that way. Um, Doesn't make it, you know, effortless to get— Yes, absolutely. —bad feedback.

I mean, you still have those horrible emotions, right? You have that gnawing feeling in your gut, and your insecurities come out, and you feel quite vulnerable. Which brings me to my next question. How do you deal with negative feedback, Angela?

Well, you know, I'm defensive, to be honest. Usually when people say like, hey, you got this wrong, like, you know, I'm immediately defensive. I actually don't know many people who aren't defensive. I was actually just talking to a colleague of mine named Ayelet Fishbach. She's at University of Chicago. She's a very famous professor and she does a lot of studies on feedback and failure, et cetera. And she is also somebody who's like, "Oh, I hate negative feedback.

I hate it. I hate it.

I hate it." But obviously, it's just a normal human reaction, right? Who likes negative feedback anyway? Right. It's 100% normal just to be aware of it. And like you said, you know, for the young people who are listening or for the parents of young people, like, it's just normal to feel that way. The question isn't whether you're going to feel that way. The question is how long you're going to feel that way and how quickly you can get to or ever get to the point where you're like, okay, fine, let me actually like learn from it. So I say to my students, whenever something happens to you, there's information like we both said, but there's also a motivational, like, payload. And even just to understand that, like you said, like, that's really powerful. Like, if I had been told when I was 16, like, hey, by the way, every single time somebody praises you or criticizes you, there's both information and there's also, like, an emotional motivational payload, I'd be like, oh, good. Good to know.

And honestly, some of the harshest ones, you know, you know, those— sometimes you can gain so much from them. Of course it takes a while and also you have to take it with a grain of salt because especially if it's coming from someone who doesn't have your best interest at heart, then you definitely have to understand what part of it is them and their baggage. It's something that you can process and maybe there's something you can glean from it or learn from it.

100%. Yeah. And it is not easy. It is not easy. And that is why I think parents and coaches and teachers have to have to like, you know that recipe we started off with, like challenge plus support? I think that is why, like when people are challenged, they do get defensive, they do get angry, they do get resentful. And so the support thing is like the thing that keeps them coming back. They're like, yeah, but I know my mom loves me, so all right, fine, I'll listen to what she said.

Um, like, let me, let me like, you know, I love you and that's why I'm giving you this feedback and I'm on your team. You gotta constantly remind them that you're on their team. And now, shifting topics a bit, I just wanted to talk a little bit about grit and possibly some words of wisdom for managing and dealing with the racism.

Yeah. You know, I will just first state, like, I, you know, I do believe that there is racism. And as people have pointed out, like, institutional racism, structural inequality, and like, so just in case it It's not abundantly clear. Um, because sometimes when people think like, oh, if you believe in grit, you don't believe in these social forces that are, um, that are around us. And I absolutely believe that those things exist and also that we should work on them. So I think for me, I was just on the, um, on a webinar with Neil Lewis, who's a professor at Cornell, and he was speaking to, um, our students. And he said, as a psychologist, he started off studying things that were just like the individual, cuz that's what psychology is. You know, grit is about individuals. But, um, as he has gotten, um, more expert in his, um, craft, he realizes that you can't ignore these, um, you know, other forces that are outside the individual. Um, and so now he studies like the individual in context. And I'm, um, a little bit behind him in my journey because I am also trying to now increasingly study like the conditions under which, um, you know, grit, which I still believe is important that can be developed, the conditions under which, you know, the individual can do something. If you are a kid who is in an environment where, like, you really don't have any control over what you do and there are very few opportunities, then you are not going to, I think, have any reason to, like, work hard and, and stay committed to something.

So that was my second conversation with Angela Duckworth. Please tune into the next episode for questions and answers from parents. And by the way, that artist that I mentioned, her name was Liza Lou, and it actually took her 5 years to bead the entire kitchen. And you can still see the kitchen. It's at the Whitney Museum in Manhattan. The second artist that I mentioned, his name was Song Dong, and he was at the MoMA in 1991. Wow, time flies. Go to topdownbrain.com to opt into our newsletter for extra tips and information on our neuroscience-powered planner and online courses for K-12 and beyond, parents and professionals. Please share this podcast with anyone who believes in the scientific method and are curious about boosting performance with mental and physical resilience for themselves or their kids. This podcast is separate from my role as faculty at the Juilliard Pre-College Division. And the contents of this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Thank you so much. And until next time, this is Dr. Juna Bobby MD wishing you and your family wellness.