How Can Ten Minutes Change Your Mental Health Trajectory?

you don't have to be diagnosed to benefit from single session interventions, right? And so now maybe you can define single session interventions for us.

So an intervention just means something that you do to someone to have a desired effect. In this case, the intervention is to improve their mental health. So we're like trying to give people skills and information that they can take forward in their life and possibly trying to spark an aha moment that will give them the motivation to actually turn these new concepts into action. But it being single session, it's meant to be done in just one experience. So a lot of our single session interventions are available online. You can finish some of them in like 20 minutes.

Welcome to the Mind Body Space Podcast, where you can stress less and boost your performance and wellness down to the cellular level just by listening. Hi, I'm Dr. Juna Bobby MD, a mom MD passionate about sharing evidence-based tips to keep you and your family well. For the past 10 years, I've been teaching the science of resilience to high-achieving individuals at many different schools and organizations. And currently I'm on faculty at the Juilliard School Pre-College Division, teaching gifted students how to stress less and perform at their best. I started this podcast because I wanted to share what I learned as I explore fascinating topics like neuroscience and meditation with experts in education, medicine, and psychology. Your support makes this possible. Please subscribe and share with a family, friend, anyone who needs to stress less, boost performance, and be happier. Hey Benji. Hey, how are you? Thank you so much for being here, uh, taking the time out to speak with me today. I wanna introduce Benji Kavalaze. He is a postdoc researcher in the lab for Scalable Mental Health, which I'm a big fan of, and he received his PhD in psychological science from UC Irvine. He studies online single session interventions for loneliness, and he's interested in making mental health resources more appealing and effective for more people. And we know that this is such an important topic right now. One of the highest priority measures that they're trying to take in higher ed situations is mental health. That's one of the, that is top of mind for everyone. So I'm really excited that you're here and doing this incredibly important work. I am such a big fan of single session interventions, and Benji, you're gonna tell us a little bit more about yourself and we're gonna get into what that means for everyone and how accessible it is. Right. So Benji, tell us more about yourself and where you're working and how you got involved with Dr. Jessica Schleider. I have her book here.

Nice.

Um, who I'm also a big fan of. So please tell us a little bit more about your story and what really is single session intervention.

Sounds good. Okay, so I'm a postdoc. I just finished my first year. I finished my PhD at UC Irvine in California, which is where I'm from, and then moved here to Chicago to join the lab for scalable mental health. And Jessica Schneider is the head of that lab. So what the lab—

and that's Northwestern, right?

It's at Northwestern, right?

Mm-hmm.

The lab focuses on making mental health resources as accessible as possible so that more people can access them. There's a big problem in the field of mental health treatments that not a lot of people can get access to like top-of-the-line evidence-based therapy. And these therapies typically work, but it's just hard to get them. Therapy waiting lists are really long. Mm-hmm. Uh, not to mention the fact that a lot of people who might be able to benefit from support don't really want support or don't think that therapy is the right thing for them. So the idea is to make these like really accessible things, like online interventions, send someone a link and they can do something on their own or like do something really like with a lower barrier to entry than typical mental health care.

Mm-hmm.

Um, the lab mostly focuses on is like teenage populations. But I'm interested in everybody, teenagers and adults personally.

And so I wanna break that down. So first you said that traditional mental healthcare is really not accessible right now because we all know that there is a huge wait and also you need that extremely important rapport with the person that you're gonna work with, right? If you're going into psychotherapy. And I think everyone knows out there that it's really hard to find a great therapist and that there's a huge waiting list, especially for teenagers. I couldn't believe how long the waiting list is for most places that have a great reputation. And then I wanted to also talk about your second point, which is that most people don't want that help. So can you go a little more into that?

I don't know if it's like most people don't want help, but definitely a lot of people, just like in my experience, think that therapy is not for them. Like their, their, their problem is something that cannot be fixed by like having a conversation or having, yeah, what they imagine to be this like touchy-feely experience. Um, some, some people are like turned off by the idea of CBT where you like work on negative thoughts and things like that. We need more options to suit different people's preferences about how they want to get support because the typical, you know, the story of like how psychotherapy was developed and like for rich people and Vienna and like basically the way the therapy was developed, it's fairly out of date and it's not for the diverse groups of people. It, and there have been a lot of efforts to make it more accessible and resonate more with different populations, but we have a lot of—

and more modern.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. More modern. We have a lot of, uh, room to go. So we need different kinds of things for different kinds of people. And so single session interventions are one kind of intervention for people. They're not meant to like replace therapy. We're not saying that everybody should like stop getting mental health support.

Right, right.

If you already are, they should like—

Yeah, therapy is so important. And we're gonna get into single session interventions, but I just wanna add to that point, you know, what do you think about the idea that psychotherapy, you know, I know people who've been in psychotherapy for years and it's extremely expensive, number one, 'cause I don't think insurance pays or covers all of psychotherapy. And not that I'm against it, I think it's very beneficial. And also talk therapy is very beneficial, but at a certain point you have to start taking action. Otherwise, if you're just going over things over and over again, it could even re-trigger you. Coming from a neuroscience perspective, I do believe that when you talk about things in a way that's not action-oriented at first, obviously it could be helpful. And I'm treading very lightly here because everybody has different needs. But for me anyway, I don't want to continue and talk about things that happen. I wanna do something about it, you know? And I think that's where CBT is so useful cuz it's very cognitive behavioral therapy cuz it's a very limited time and it gives you assignments to do. So for someone like me, I love cognitive behavioral therapy. I love dialectical behavioral therapy. Those are things that people could, everybody I believe needs, even if you don't have a diagnosis. And that's the second thing you were saying. So the diagnosis part, you don't have to be diagnosed to benefit from single session interventions, right? And so now maybe you can define single session interventions for us.

So an intervention just means something that you do to someone to have a desired effect. In this case, the intervention is to improve their mental health. So we're like trying to give people skills and information that they can take forward in their life. And possibly trying to spark an aha moment that will give them the motivation to actually turn these new concepts into action. But it being single session, it's meant to be done in just one experience. So a lot of our single session interventions are available online. You can finish some of them in like 20 minutes. The ones that I'm working on right now, some of them are to take like 5 minutes. It's like really condensed information, but we, we've shown that for certain people.

5 minutes. Wow. Yeah.

Yeah. Just one powerful idea is really what can do it. Even like 10 minutes.

I love that.

You can get a lot of information in there.

So you might've been primed in the past. For example, you know, Jessica mentions in her book, Little Treatments, Big Effects, you know, maybe she was ready to receive that big aha moment. What did you call it? Big idea.

Yeah. Maybe, maybe I said like insight experience.

And somebody just says the right thing. In that moment, and then that just can change everything for you, right? Is that what you're talking about? Exactly.

We're like trying to figure out how to provide that right thing for as many people as possible. They're probably not, not gonna be the right thing for, like a, a lot of people will, will like take an SSI and be like annoyed by it. They're like, yeah.

And SSI, you mean single session intervention?

Yeah.

Yeah. As opposed to SSRI, which is selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. We're not talking about that. We're talking about SSI as a single session intervention, which is not a pill. Right? It's just an idea that you're sharing.

Yeah, most of them, yeah, it's just like a link to an online survey, which most of them aren't very impressive visually. It's basically, yeah, an idea, like a set of concepts presented in a certain way. But yes, some people don't resonate with it, but some people, you give them an SSI, the last 5 minutes, and they'll remember it for years. I mean, when I was making my own SSI for loneliness, that was my dissertation research during my PhD. I of course like showed it to my, all my family members and they always bring it up. Like my grandma brings up how she remembered some lessons from my SSI. Basically the SSI for loneliness, the message is like, get out and do something social even if you don't want to.

So, and it's just like a 5-minute thing.

Yeah. If that lesson comes and you're able to support that claim with saying this is something research-based and this has worked for a lot of people, it can stick. It can be kind of impressive.

Amazing. So what did you find out in your dissertation?

Oh, not that much. That's kind of how things go for me, but there's, there's definitely some promise of these kinds of single session interventions for loneliness. I mean, clearly it works very well for a lot of people, but when it comes to average level effects against active comparison conditions, like other kinds of simple interventions, we didn't find significantly better. So the stuff that I'm working on now is trying to make single session interventions more engaging. Trying to improve their ability to create an aha moment because I, I really wanna see stronger effects from these things. Even if it is 10 minutes, I wanna squeeze as much powerful stuff in as we can.

Mm-hmm. And when you say other interventions, you don't mean pills, you mean other interventions like what lifestyle, uh, kind of coaching? What, what do you mean?

Good question. Like other single session interventions that don't necessarily use evidence-based techniques for loneliness.

I see.

So that was like the control condition. This is kind of like getting in the weeds of experimental design, but the—

Yeah, let's do it. Okay.

So the control condition for some of my studies in my dissertation was like, basically it, it looks like the SSI for loneliness, but it tells you a message like you should share friends with other people, or sorry, you, you should share your feelings with your friends. So it's stuff that's kind of similar to loneliness, but it's not exactly evidence-based stuff. And we found that it's just like old advice or something. Yeah, kind of old advice. Um, but some people resonated a lot with that control. Oh, it was, it was feels like a pretty strong control condition. But basically we didn't find significant differences between that control and the one that I made. But look, I'm, I'm not a like expert online intervention creator. I, I just looked, looked over my loneliness SSI like an hour ago and I was like, wow, this needs a lot of work.

Yeah. Give us an example. Give us an example of what, what a SSI is. So I, I can tell you that I found Jessica Schleider when I recommended one of my students to go do her intervention at Stony Brook when she was a professor there. And she was doing a virtual reality single session intervention and it was like they walked through the high school, I guess, and, uh, they're talking to friends or, you know, kind of having a little cognitive behavioral therapy in a VR setting. So that was when I found her work. Or did you do any of that kind of work with her?

I didn't even know about that. I'm so sorry.

Oh gosh.

It shows, it shows what I know how, but also how many projects the lab has going on. I think the lab's focus these days is more making things that are like mega accessible and have a big reach.

Because VR is not so mega accessible right now.

Yeah, it's like most people don't have a VR and they have to download something. We want something that you can literally just link to someone and they can get access to immediately when they need it.

You're allowed to give us one quick single session?

Yeah, I can give you links to a lot of the ones we've developed that are available online for free. If people are interested, they should look at the website for our lab, the Lab for Scalable Mental Health.

And we'll have all the links to that.

It has a—

but like pretend that you're just giving it to me now. Just gimme like one part of it. You don't— I just wanna tell the audience like what it entails, like just one sentence or one question or one interaction.

Okay, let's do it. So let's, uh, go, go through my single session intervention for loneliness.

Okay.

Just to explain how loneliness works and how there's a cycle of negative thoughts about yourself. So if you're lonely, people who are lonely often struggle with thoughts like, I'm too weird to have friends. People just don't like me. There's like something wrong with me where if I go out into a social situation, I'm gonna have a bad time. Pretty much. Those are thoughts that'll keep you at home when you have an opportunity to go out and do something social. So what the overall purpose of the intervention is, is to encourage you to take that social risk, like go out and do something social even when you feel like it's not gonna go well. Because you learn from those experiences. Uh, probably a lot of those experiences will actually be kind of awkward, but a surprising amount will go better than you think. Even if it doesn't go well, you're gaining social skills, you're gaining social experiences. Everything in the SSI is built around trying to motivate you to engage in positive social actions. So we also walk you through social skills, attentive listening, different body gestures when you're interacting with somebody, things like that. And describe the, the importance of exposure. It's a problem with anxiety disorders, but just like any problem where you get nervous in situations, if you can expose yourself to those situations that make you nervous, that's a great path towards healing and overcoming those feelings of anxiety. All this stuff is evidence-based and that's, I mean, we're a research lab, so we try and do evidence-based as much as possible.

And so how do you motivate somebody when they don't wanna go out to do it? Like what does your grandma say? How does she, how does she use that intervention now that she remembers it?

I think it's just something that sits in the back of her head where it's like when you, you know, probably like most times you have a social opportunity. You're on the fence, right? Like there is something that's pulling you out, um, to wanting to do it, but something that's holding you back. The SSI gives you this one thing in the back of your head that's like, okay, let me just do it. It'll, it'll tip, tip, tip the balance of go versus no-go in the favor of go, which is what, what we want for loneliness.

I love that. That's awesome. Okay. Can you tell us a little more about the Lab for Scalable Mental Health?

It's really impressive. Like the lab has grown a lot, especially in the last year. So it used to be at Stony Brook University in New York. The lab moved to Chicago last year and that's when I joined, but it's led by Jessica Schleider. She did a PhD at Harvard in clinical psychology. And I'm, I'm, I'm not a trained clinical psychologist, but a lot of people in our lab are, which means that they have experience doing like face-to-face therapy. They have actual clinical experience.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I just like talk about it and guess what works.

But you do the research behind the scenes, like you crunch the numbers.

You, even though I don't have clinical experience, cuz I think clinical experience is overrated. But obviously I, I think that cuz it's convenient for me. But yeah, that, you have very good metacognition, by the way, Benji. Oh yeah, thanks. Um, the lab has a lot of people right now. Like I think it's like 30 members, tons of grad students, lots of postdocs, undergraduate research assistants. So a big focus of the lab right now is implementing interventions into the real world.

Okay. And so that's why you have the website, right?

Yeah.

So scalable. Yeah.

So we're doing a lot of collaborations with school systems and mental health apps, like startups to integrate SSIs into those. This one school system implemented single session consultations, which is like an in-person therapist-led version of an SSI. They implemented it in their whole school system. So people can just come into an office and get this single session therapy instead of doing a 9-week CBT. You do a single session with a therapist and they implement that into the real world. That's the idea. Like these single session interventions are very implementable when it comes to those single session consultations, like the in-person therapy ones, there's good evidence they can be as effective as these much longer therapy experiences.

Yeah. So how effective is it? I know some of her studies showed that, I think it was anxiety in teens were lowered almost 9 to 10 months out from the single session.

Yeah, so it depends on the population you're looking at. It depends on the kind of single session intervention, like online or in person. There's a lot of evidence as opposed, like in including evidence from my own dissertation that is less exciting about like long-term benefits for adults, for example, for loneliness when you're comparing it to a strong comparison condition as I did. But when it comes to these like in-person single, single session consultations, there is, I'm pretty sure, better evidence of stronger effects and certain problems like parenting interventions. Recently work from Jenna Sung, who's, uh, just finished her grad school in, in my lab. She was finding some pretty remarkably big effects, um, for interventions where you help parents to parent children who are struggling with anxiety. So it's like different stuff. We're still in the early stages of, of this research, so we're trying to figure out what issues does this work best for? And we're also trying to figure out how do we design these SSIs in the best way.

Mm-hmm.

Because yeah, to me, like it's, it's a problem that it's just being designed right now by researchers, not by people that are really experts in like compelling interventions.

And so when you said you were comparing to a very strong control, what was that control?

That was one I was telling you about before, like the one about sharing your feelings.

Oh, with your friends?

With somebody else. Yeah. Where it's like, It actually is like probably a kind of decent loneliness intervention, but still I wanna do better than telling someone you should share your feelings.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

So in your research now, what mental health issues has single session interventions been most effective on?

It's shown some solid effects on depression and anxiety, but most of the work has been done by my lab in teens. And these things have to be replicated in different settings too.

Right.

So like if you're looking for huge effects of a one-time thing, average level effects, like if you put this effect out to the population and it reaches thousands of people, you're not gonna be expecting, uh, like effects that are on the order of traditional face-to-face therapy or like a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor.

Mm-hmm.

Um, it's like generally smaller effects from these shorter interventions.

But we don't know, right? It depends on the population. So if you are giving it to a relatively well population that hasn't really been diagnosed, perhaps it would would have different effects from giving it to people who actually have been diagnosed. But I guess you can maybe offer single session interventions and maybe you already are to people who might be on a waitlist for therapy, something like that. Yeah. Right.

That's exactly the approach that a lot of the work takes. And I, I, I think that that's like one of the most compelling approaches to delivering these things. Like people that are looking for help but cannot get it through traditional pathways.

Mm-hmm.

Giving them something in the meantime.

What do you think about just people from all walks of life just using these single session interventions?

It makes sense to me. I mean, why not? They're like, take 10 minutes, 15 minutes. It's generally helpful messages about kind of growth mindsets and actionable skills you can use to improve your life. It's definitely generalizable information.

And how is it different from just scrolling through, let's say Instagram and, and getting those, you know, like maybe a Stoic website or a Stoic Instagram account that tells you all these, you know, wisdom and the quotes that help you get motivated. What's the difference? I know it's because it's research-based, right?

But yeah, it's evidence-based, but you're kind of talking to someone who has like an outside opinion on this thing, cuz I'm personally a big fan of those kinds of Instagram scrolling. I know people have like radically changed their life because they came across Stoic philosophy, as you mentioned.

Uh-huh.

Uh, I'm a, I'm a big fan of what I call popular online content related to mental health. Okay.

So online stuff is not always bad.

Definitely. I, I mean, yeah, I mean like I, I personally grew up spending like tons of time on the internet and online communities and stuff and, uh-huh. Okay. Maybe I regret I, I should have been out, um, at the beach more often.

Yeah.

But I also learned a lot of valuable stuff, so I would definitely not say that online information is necessarily inferior. Of course, like if you're like a doctor and you wanna recommend someone something reliable to improve their mental health, or yeah, if you wanna recommend anyone something that they can trust.

Yes. Trust is a big deal.

You shouldn't just say go online and figure it out yourself. I mean, that's one of the great benefits of SSIs. It's like, yeah, this is something that is vetted, but you know, it's amazing. It's not perfect for everybody. And so that's one of the reasons that I wanna expand. And make different kinds of SSIs that resonate with different kinds of people.

And speaking of, I know you're working on Uplift the Web project. Can you please tell us about that and what that's about?

Yeah, so the, the goal of that project is just what I said, to expand the library of kinds of single session interventions that we can pull from to different kinds of designs. So what we did, it's called a crowdsourced mega study. What crowdsourced means is that we put out a call. To as many people as possible in the field of digital mental health and beyond. The call was, if you have an idea for something that can reduce depression in under 10 minutes, give us your idea. So we put out that call and received 65.

One of which was mine. Yeah.

One of which is yours and it's still under consideration.

Oh, good. So I haven't been nixed yet.

Right. What our plan is, is, is to select the, the, the 10 most promising from that 65. And then do what's called a mega study, which is a large experiment. We're aiming to get several thousand people in this experiment to test which of these 10 interventions and a passive control and an active comparison condition, which works best in reducing depression over 4 weeks.

Mm-hmm. You're gonna have that freely available on Uplift the Web, right?

Yeah. We're gonna make the, the interventions that we identify as most effective freely available and disseminate them as much as possible on the web.

Awesome. Now we know how people can access these single session interventions because Mind Body Space Podcast is about peak performance related to mental and physical wellbeing. How do you think that these SSIs could help in general people who are looking to feel their best and be able to put out peak performance in whatever they're doing?

I think it could be helpful to know the kind of evidence-based strategies that people are receiving in different forms of therapy. I mean, that's something that I wondered about a ton being a psychologist, but not a clinical psychologist. I'm like, what is actually going on in those therapy sessions? What are these like evidence-based things that are being delivered? For me, it's interesting to learn, yeah, like what are these skills? And if you can master those skills, then like all of a sudden you're getting a lot of the benefits from therapy, I guess.

Um, We hope.

I'm still actually not really sure what's going on in those therapy sessions, but—

Well, I think it's so individual. That's the thing with therapy. It's, it's really about the connection between the therapist and the patient. Just, you know, even more stronger than being a clinical physician myself, the, the strength of rapport between a patient and a doctor is so important in treatment, but for mental health, it's almost I would say 100% of it is your rapport with that person. 'Cause if you don't trust your therapist, if you don't connect with them, it's not gonna work.

Yeah. Yeah. I, I think that there's sometimes there's definitely a lot of truth to that.

Maybe not always true, but yeah.

Something I'm interested in is digital therapeutic alliance. Like, can we get some of the benefits of that therapeutic alliance between a therapist and a client? Can we emulate that in a digital experience? Can we somehow deliver some of those benefits of that human connection or the feeling that The thing that you're doing is right for you. Mm-hmm. And someone out there is like, understands you. How can an online experience deliver that? I, I think that that's one of the reasons that like one therapy session can be as good as 10. It's like in that one therapy session you get someone who's like validating your experience and telling you like you actually have potential to get better and, and overcome a lot of the problems that you feel like you're not able to overcome. So.

Just this one intervention shifting your thought patterns. And I wanna go back to the fact that mental health is for everyone because mental illness or men, you know, whatever you wanna call it, if you're diagnosed, it's just a spectrum, right? Everybody has off days, just like you get sick with a cold. People are gonna get depressed or anxious, and that's just part of life for everyone. Some, I mean, I know some people are more susceptible than others, but basically the fact that you're making this accessible to everyone is so important because mental health is everybody's health. It's part of. Being human, you know, we all have ups and downs. We have anxieties and depression and all of that can be part of the human experience.

Yeah, I, that's absolutely true. Getting more information about how your mind works. I know this is like your mission, Juna Bobby MD.

Yes.

Um, that's a common idea that I think is not really evidence-based.

Um, and also you have to wait till you're really off, uh, your daily routines to see somebody clinically. So I, you know me, I'm all about prevention. I don't wanna people to get to that point. You know, it's not that you might not see them once or twice in your life, and everybody should. I've seen a therapist, you know, at least once in my life, but I don't think that people should wait for that to have these skills.

Oh, totally.

And talking about single session, I'm not a clinical psychotherapist, but I do teach mind-body medicine. And I did have this one woman tell me she had been suffering with anxiety for 35 years, and I had one session with her. She felt very hopeful and I haven't, you know, she told me she's doing really well. It's been months and I'm not saying I cured her or anything. I'm not speaking, you know, and I just taught her about her brain and her nervous system. So again, I'm not evidence-based because this is, you know, I, I've taught a lot of students and people have told me things, but I'm not gonna say that I did research on it. That's why I love that your lab is putting out the research that even though it's hard to decipher what is important and what is not as far as data's concerned, cuz there's so many variables when you're doing psychotherapy, any kind of subjective data collection, right? So qualitative evidence, you know, people saying I feel better or not, there's always questionable things in that, but your work is really important because we do need something to basically trust, like you said. And the more data, the more trustworthy. I agree. Even if it's not perfect.

I agree.

Right.

It's a good lab.

Awesome. I'm so excited for you guys and for all of your work that you're doing. Is there anything else you'd like to tell people about Again, you can repeat how they can access these SSIs and also what tips you have for people out there. There's a lot of people suffering from anxiety, depression, and loneliness right now. So any tips on that?

Okay. So again, our lab is Lab for Scalable Mental Health, and we have some online resources you can get for people that are suffering with anxiety issues. There's a lot of resources online. There's a lot of progress you can make. On your own, even if you don't have access to professional help right now. I would recommend if people make an effort to find what works for them. Sometimes it's not the mainstream thing. It can be like picking up a, a hobby that you really care about. It's your experience, it's your mental health journey.

So, yeah. And I mean, we are not, we definitely support therapists and Benji and I, right? I think you agree with me that when people need help, you should always reach out. So if you're on that waitlist though, you can always do things for yourself and maybe something will really work for you, right? And I know you know that I'm back at school, so I'm getting my master's in education at Harvard University, and I just enrolled. I was approved to enroll in a course at MIT, so I'm really excited about it, and it's called Designing Virtual Worlds. And I hope that maybe I can bounce some ideas off of you because I will be doing things about on resilience and hoping to design virtual reality situations where we can teach resilience.

That sounds so sick. Yeah, I would love to talk about that.

Yeah, I, I don't know. It's gonna be crazy cuz it's just like a bunch of different people from different backgrounds. They have like people like me, then they have, uh, musicians from Berkeley and then they have MIT CS and coders. So we'll see what happens. Uh, the professor seems super interesting. I'll let you know and we'll be in touch about that. Can you give us the, um, website and I'll also put in the links?

Yeah, just Google Lab for Scalable Mental Health and it'll pop up.

Awesome. I love it. And what about your Uplift the Web? Is there a website for that? Is that, is there anything to do for that or is it over?

It's not over. We're, we're gonna have information in the coming months about like which interventions were the best. We're gonna write a paper on it. It'll all be on Uplift the Web. Yeah. If you just Google that, it'll pop up too. Yeah. It's my project, so it's like the lab is leading it. And we're at Northwestern, so it, that, and it's hosted at a Northwestern thing and it makes it sound fancier if we say Northwestern in the title.

You're not accepting any more entries at this moment? Not right now. Okay.

But, but if you—

in the future you might be having things like that again.

Yeah. And if people have ideas for SSIs, you can just email me and I'll, I'll look it over.

I, I love your, um, frank, you know, your personality is awesome. You share a lot with us and I really appreciate you being here, Benji. Thank you so much.

Thanks, Juna. It's always a pleasure.

But yeah, just remember how much important work you're doing.

Thank you.

Thanks again. Talk to you soon, Benji.

Okay.

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