How One Doctor Lost Fifty Pounds Using A Simple Meditation Rjotwani Lifestyle Medicine

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Hi everybody. Today I'm so honored to have Dr. Rakesh Jatwani, also known as Dr. Rock. He's a practicing internist and a lifestyle medicine physician, and he's so passionate about the power of plant-based eating and lifestyle changes to help you live your best life. He personally experienced a remarkable transformation in his health and in his personal and professional life. He went from fast food and burnt out to plant-based and more zen. He became board certified in lifestyle medicine and served as the inaugural director of lifestyle medicine at Kaiser Permanente in San Francisco. He's an awesome dad of 3 kids and a dog, and he's going to tell us all about his amazing transformation today. Hey, Dr. Rock, how are you? I'm so excited to have you here today. I'm really appreciate you spending your time with us.

Oh yeah, and I'm always looking to meet new people and learn what people are doing. And, um, it sounds like you're doing some really cool stuff too.

And you as well. I want to get— dive right into your story because I'm so excited to hear about this. You had kind of hit a wall yourself professionally and maybe personally, and you said that you were burnt out and you were using maybe food and maybe unhealthy things to help with your stress.

And Mm-hmm.

And I wanted to talk about that, uh, in detail for the audience to understand like what it takes to kind of transform from that state because nothing was removed. You know, you, you still had your physician job, you had your obligations as a father of 3.

That's right.

And a husband and all the things that come along with that. So how did you shift and what made you see kind of the light? Was there like a moment or was it a time period? Did you learn about something? Like, what happened?

Yeah, let's go back.

Yeah.

And I want to— yeah. And I also want to go back to like your childhood.

Oh, sure. We can talk about that. But I'll answer your first question. Yes, I was— I was probably 4 or 5 years out of training. So I am an internist. I practice internal medicine. I also practice something called lifestyle medicine, which I think you've had other guests on your show.

I'm also board certified in lifestyle medicine.

That's right. Yeah.

I've had Dr. Fradys on a bunch of times. She's the president of the American College of Lifestyle Medicine. Yeah.

The story is sort of, I would say that where I'm at, where I'm talking is the sort of the beginnings of that, of how I even got into lifestyle medicine. Because as you mentioned, I was like 5 years, yeah, into a hospitalist career. So I was taking care of adult patients in the hospital, which, you know, for your listeners that can imagine, that's a pretty stressful job. Like people come into the hospital because they're sick and they, they, they need to come in. And so you don't, and you don't know them, like you've never met them before. And you've never met the families before. So you're, you're making a lot of like connections and relationships, like in very intense situations. And I really appreciated that. Like, I think I, on some level, like enjoyed that. But at the time, I was just, you know, you're at in an environment like that all day, and I would come home. And at that time we had 2 kids. We now have 3 kids and my daughter's the oldest. So at that time she was like 5 or 6. And even then she was old enough to kind of say like, Daddy, you're always in a bad mood, you know? And my wife was the one who was just very honest with me. She was like, you know, we're usually in a good mood and then you come home and you're always like complaining and telling us like all the bad things that happened today. And I said something back then which seemed totally justified. I said, you know, I'm not allowed to do this at work. You know, at work I have to be collegial and have a smile on my face. At home, I'm allowed to sort of unload. And I think that resonates with a lot of people. I think a lot of people like hold it together during the day at work, whatever they're doing professionally. You don't have to be a doctor. It's just so many, anything we do, like there's a lot of stress that comes with being in different jobs and you come home and you're just like, finally, like, finally I can just sort of unload. And it turns out that doesn't bring good energy to the home. And I, um, that's probably when, you know, there was a night when my wife said something to me You know, I look back now and I really think it was an act of kindness. I didn't necessarily see it that way at the time, but she asked me, you know, I said, because I said something like, you know, I don't have, I don't have a choice at work. Like I get to do this at home. And she said, how is it fair that the people you love the most get the worst version of you? And because that's basically what I was saying. I was saying like, I'm a better version of myself at work. And when I come home, I get to be this version. And I didn't really— I didn't have a good answer at the time. I do remember thinking, I don't want that to be the case. Like, that's not— like, I was looking, you know, for happiness. Everyone's always looking for happiness. And I was looking for it in all these external things that, you You know, on paper, like, I had, I had everything I ever wanted. You know, I had gone through rigorous school and then I became a doctor and I had a good job and I had amazing wife and two kids and amazing kids, right? Amazing kids. Amazing kids. Seriously. And yet I was like coming home so unhappy every day.

Oh, wow. Well, thanks for sharing that because that's something that we can all relate to, right? Being our worst version with the people who we're closest to.

That's right.

And to admit that, you know, that's pretty amazing that, you know, you were able to look at that. I mean, I still do it sometimes.

I still do too. I have to catch yourself.

But I love how your wife said that, that, that's a really profound way to put it. And tell me how you said initially it didn't strike you as something like an act of kindness, but now it does. So at the time, how did you manage it? Did you take it as a constructive criticism?

Right. I say that even my wife would tell you she was probably nervous to tell me something like that because she didn't know how I was going to respond.

Is she a physician as well?

She's a physician as well.

And what kind of physician is she?

And she's a nephrologist. She's a kidney specialist. Oh, wow.

Okay. And she doesn't take out work stuff at home?

Not in the way that I used to, I think. Yeah, I mean, that's the remarkable thing is is that, you know, it wasn't just that I was in a stress— I mean, she's in a stressful job. And my schedule was such that like I was working 2 weekends a month as a hospitalist. I was working sometimes 2, 3, 4 nights a month. And then she was home by herself with our kids during all those times. And these are small kids. And yet I was so like caught up in my own struggle and my own story. That that was, you know, totally justifiable for me to sort of be the way I was. And, but when she said that, you know, and my wife, I have a history of depression and many people have a history of mental health issues. And so my wife knows that. And she knows also that especially back then, like sometimes saying something to me would put me in a very kind of depressed mood or, And then my reaction to that would be to sort of withdraw, withdraw from the family. And she said, I didn't know what saying that to you would do. And maybe that probably had some of that effect, but it also caused me to really turn inward and ask that question, like, is this the person that you want to be? Right? Right. And I didn't know how to go about not being that person, but this is when I think the universe has your back. And for whatever reason, I opened, uh, um, because my brain was now trying to solve this problem.

You were recognizing and seeing things, paying attention.

I was paying attention and, and I saw an email for a physician, like wellness session. And I never used to go to those sessions.

Who does, right?

But it was, it was called Evidence-Based Work place happiness. It was all the things that you, one might do to, to be happier. And initially my like kind of BS alarm went off too, because I said, this is indicating that my happiness is a choice, something under my direct control. And so I said, well, evidence-based, right? They know how to market to physicians. So they're like evidence-based.

Yeah. You need that evidence, right?

You need that evidence, right? So I went to session. It was a 2-hour session in the evening. And they had us do something very simple. And if your listeners can do this right now, it's so fun.

Okay, let's do it.

Okay. So you just, you probably have a device next to you or you're on it. You're going to send a text message to somebody. At the time, they had us do it with somebody we work with. But I say this could be anybody in your life. You're just going to send a message right now. Next 30 seconds of somebody in your life that you appreciate and telling them why. And so they had us do that. And I had a colleague I worked with in my office. And he was, you know, a couple of decades senior to me. And so I was— when I was starting out, he was always my go-to person, even at that point, my go-to person. I have this patient. I have this question. I have this. And I would just talk through things with him and vice versa. He would talk through things with me. And he also is a father, had 3 kids. And so he became sort of advice for like, wow, how do I do this? What do I do this? So, and he had become a friend. And in that moment I said, you know, it's really cool that I get to work with somebody and share an office with somebody who's a friend. And so that's how I sent him a message. I said, I really appreciate having you as my colleague and my friend. And then they had us put our device away. So your listeners, you can put your device away. Where they can hit pause and send us your message. And they said, just asked us, how do you feel, you know, compared to how you felt a minute ago? That, you know, Juna was like a light bulb moment for me. I was like, I feel better. I feel better. I feel lighter and I feel just, I don't know, better about myself, like better about work. Like it was crazy. I was like, that didn't take long. So that really piqued my interest. I was like, okay, I'm going to listen to this talk. And they talked about gratitude and they talked about mindfulness and mindfulness meditation. That was one of the the evidence-based interventions, one of the evidence-based practices to make you happier on a regular basis. And I said, what does that mean? And I didn't know much about meditation other than, you know, this was— when was this, 2015? There were already like a few apps available and Headspace was available. So that's what I downloaded that after the session. And I realized that I couldn't find even 10 minutes in my house In the morning, I was used to kind of sleeping in late, and I was trying to get up and do 20 things before I would drive off to the hospital. And we had small, you know, we had babies at home, basically. And at night, I would try to do it, and I remember for a few nights, and I would just fall asleep. I was just so exhausted. So I started doing the meditation in my car. Before coming into the house, I would pull over to the side of the road and just, you know, play the Headspace app. And I think it starts with 30 days. I said, okay, I'm at least gonna do these 30 days. Wow.

5 minutes or 10 minutes?

10 minutes. 10, 11, 12 minutes, you know, and whatever their intro. And it was very uncomfortable for me. I was, I'll tell you that often a very common practice for me on the way home from work prior to that was to maybe a couple times a week was to get, uh, go get some drive-through fast food.

To relieve your stress.

To relieve my stress.

So that was like your reward for yourself.

It was like my reward for myself. So I said, okay, I'm this month, I'm not going to do that.

Which one is yours? Mine used to be the McDonald's drive-through, and I would get cheeseburgers.

Okay.

Yeah.

So McDonald's was on the rotation, and I would get a double cheeseburger. I would get—

Oh, a double. Okay.

I would get the yogurt parfait because I thought, you know, even though I think it has quite a bit of sugar, and I think I would say, oh, I'm getting the cheeseburger, but I'm also getting this yogurt and fruit.

What else was on your rotation? I'm just curious.

Taco Bell.

Oh, okay.

Sometimes In-N-Out. There's an In-N-Out for not— if those of you don't know, In-N-Out is a very famous burger place from California.

Right.

And they make cheeseburgers and they have this menu where you can get it animal style, where they put like all this garbage on it, basically. And there's an In-N-Out next to a Krispy Kreme donut. Oh no. And so I used to go, even after I would finish call in the hospital, like my, that was my, then I felt like I deserved anything, right? Food was how I treated myself. And it was like, whatever I want, whatever you want, you deserve, you're working so hard. Whatever you want.

I used to stop at Essa Bagel. I don't know if you know the place. They have the best bagels, or they used to. Now they have like steamed bagels. I wanna try, but anyway, that was my go-to post-call. Get those big fluffy crunchy bagels, like soft inside. And yeah, I get you. I totally had the same patterns.

I'm sure everybody listening knows what it's like to use food to comfort yourself and to comfort stress. It's so easy.

And it's like, was that from your childhood? Like, were you, did you grow up like that? Because I did. I grew up on fast food. Yeah. Okay.

So I mean, my parents didn't— it was funny. Like, they— I mean, they allowed us to have it, but probably not more than once a week we would get like food from out. And I would always want— if we're getting something, I would want some sort of fast food. And then once— but once I got to college, it was like, oh, you don't have to get this once a week. You can get this. You can get this every day, all day and all night, and you can use your meal points to get it delivered to your dorm room.

Like, where did you go to college?

I went to Duke.

Oh, nice. Yeah, so on the East Coast. Yeah, I grew up in Chicago.

No, so I grew up in Chicago, outside Chicago, like a northwest suburb of Chicago, and then left for college. I was a biology major at Duke and ultimately pre-med, but ate very unhealthy during that time.

Duke's supposed to have like the best, healthiest food.

Like, they do, they have like salads and all this stuff, but they also had a Chick-fil-A on campus.

Oh, Chick-fil-A!

They also had a McDonald's on campus.

Like, wow, on campus?

On campus.

So is it still like that?

I think so.

I don't know, I haven't been back there in quite some time. So I graduated in 2000 and 2, 2002.

Okay. Well, my son spent a summer at Indiana for when he was like really little. Well, he was like 11 or 12 and he was there for a summer camp. And, uh, their food court at that time, it was all fast food. And I think that's where the students were eating. Like it was just like a fast food court. It was very interesting. I mean, not horrible.

You know this, like there are fast food restaurants in hospital lobbies. Yes, all over the country.

Yes. Is this still like that?

It's still like that.

Okay.

All over the country. I mean, I think it's changed somewhat. Um, I have not worked in a hospital with this fast food restaurant, but there certainly are many.

So there's definitely this addictive nature, right? Your parents let you have it once a week, but once a week you preferred that, you know?

I preferred that.

Yeah. And then when you were off and stressed out, pre-med at Duke, probably away from home, I mean, Oh my God, right? Coke.

And I loved Coca-Cola. And you know that there's a machine like down the hall, we can get a 20-ounce bottle on your dining points. Like, it's a drug. It's like a drug dispenser. Like, right, true, true, right down the hall.

So what happened to you? Did you gain that 20 pounds like all the college guys do?

They told me freshman 20.

Yeah, okay. I mean, now it's the junior 20 because they're drinking a lot of alcohol, and then at that point they'd gain like 20 to 30 pounds.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, I guess because they're turning 21. I mean, they're drinking before that too, but when you turn 21, you just go all out.

Like, you go all out.

Free dining pass. Yeah, it's like having that dining pass.

Hmm, that's interesting. Freshman year, the dining hall is all-you-can-eat, you know, it's like a buffet.

Yes.

And they have like chocolate cake, and I was like, why wouldn't I? And so that was something like, growing up we didn't really eat a lot of dessert. I mean, I had treats, but like, we didn't have dessert every night. My mom cooked, you know, home-cooked food, like, what kind of nights of the week? Indian food.

Was it vegetarian or vegan?

No, no. Um, and I preferred like meat dishes when I was growing up, right? Like, she would make vegetarian food, but I would always want the like chicken and kebabs and things like that. And, uh, so I always been a bigger kid. I was overweight as a kid. I was—

oh, Like officially overweight?

Yeah, officially overweight. Like the doc, the pediatrician would talk to my mom about how my weight was. That is something I was aware of and I was just aware of it like as I got older, like aware that you're like, you know, overweight and your body looks bigger and then you become more self-conscious of that because of all the reasons.

Was that your entire childhood?

I was overweight. Yeah, my entire childhood.

I mean, like, you look like maybe on the lower scale, normal BMI for, you know, I mean, you look normal.

I've lost a lot of weight in the last several years and, and it was, I guess I'll get to that. But I'd always been a bigger person. And you can imagine as I was eating this way in college and then medical school and then after medical school, like my weight was just sort of like, you know, it would come down occasionally. Like for my wedding, I lost 30 pounds.

Wow. Well, what was your highest?

My highest weight was probably 225, 230 pounds. I'm 5'7", so I'm like 5'7.5", so I'm not that tall. I don't know, but at my highest weight, then I was at a point where I was like, I wasn't even really weighing myself, really. It was when my wife found out and told me that she was pregnant with our third. My middle son was 9 months old and my wife got pregnant.

Wow.

And yeah, and this is when I was like in this sort of whirlwind of confronting, you know, the person I was and starting to get a little bit more awareness. So what does 30 days of meditation do like in your car? It was that sort of those 10 minutes where I started. Well, one, and I didn't even realize it at the time, it was a great transition. So it was a great transition from work to home to have 10 minutes where I was just sort of kind of checking in with my body, checking in, watching my thoughts, taking slow, deep breaths, you know, and doing that in a very— it was very uncomfortable for me, but I was sort of— and then what was happening, I was just coming in the door and I was a little bit more present and I was playing with my kids a little bit and not kind of going through all the minutiae of the day.

And did they, they noticed?

And they noticed and they noticed and my wife noticed and she said, what are you? How are you this different person? And I said, I didn't think I was that different, to be honest, because I wasn't. I mean, at least my awareness of it wasn't. And I told her and I actually showed her because she didn't believe me. I said I'm meditating in my car, which, because at the time she didn't meditate.

She thought you were taking drugs or something. Exactly.

She's like, you're coming home late every day now. What I see you like pulling over. Yeah. We've seen you pull over and where are you going?

Wait, so when you say you're uncomfortable when you were meditating, what did that feel like? What was uncomfortable about it? Yeah.

Like, one, I was just so much tension in my body.

Oh, okay.

And I just wasn't aware of, like, I was aware of it in that I always felt like tension and tightness and, but. Sitting and then just like feeling it was, was not necessarily enjoyable. And then also like my monkey mind, you know, just wanted to keep going. Like I would sit and, you know, thankfully I was using guided meditation because if it was just me sitting for 10 minutes and somebody not redirecting me back to my breath and telling me that the feeling of like being uncomfortable and sort of antsy and that was normal. Like, you know, I was almost like Andy from Headspace was reassuring me that like this discomfort you're feeling is to be expected.

And of course he has that nice British accent.

And he has that British accent. So that always helps.

Exactly.

So I just stuck with it. And then my family noticed. And then I noticed, you know, I told you about how I sent that message to my colleague. And then I remember like coming in the next week and he thanked me for it. And we had this nice conversation and I started looking at work a little differently. Like I started looking at it as I started looking at my colleagues as all potential friends now. I was like, well, why do they have to just be right? And then I looked at this like intense conversations I was having as this opportunity to like really get to know someone. And I don't know, it just, it started shifting the kind of way I looked at. And more importantly, you know, I said that session was called where it made me sort of think happiness is a choice. I sort of started believing that I was like, oh yeah, there are a lot of things that are choices. And it really made me more, I think, attuned to my choices. Like I started questioning the choices I was making on a regular basis. And so that's when I started looking at the food I was eating a little closer and realized that that wasn't really in alignment. So I started asking myself also, like, what was important to me? I went on this journey because I didn't want to be the kind of asshole father that my— or asshole husband that, you know, so Then I started, well, who do I want to be? Like, I certainly don't want to be somebody who ends up in the hospital. Like, who was I taking care of? I was taking care of people who had heart attacks and strokes, complications of their diabetes. It's almost like the writing is on the wall. Like, I was basically living the life that ends up becoming the patient that ends up in the hospital.

That you were taking care of.

That's right.

So you saw that on a daily basis because it's so hard. It's basically very difficult for people to imagine their future selves. And that's like a practice you have to do because the studies show that people think of their future self as a stranger. They can't relate. So our brains can't really go there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I know. So there's that practice you have to do constantly to remind yourself, oh, I could end up there. I could end up there. But I wonder if like seeing those patients and seeing the suffering, maybe helped you? I don't know.

Part of it was seeing young patients.

How old? Like young? Very young?

Yeah, I was seeing like, I remember taking care of, he was 43. I'm 43 now. That's why I'm saying the number.

You look much younger than 43. So that vegan diet is doing something.

Thank you. He was 43 and needed bypass surgery.

Oh my gosh. Wow.

And Young Filipino guy, remember? And so the lifestyle stuff—

did he have all the lifestyle stuff like smoking, drinking, eating?

He was smoking, he was drinking, he was eating a traditional Filipino-American cuisine, which is a lot of things that are fried, a lot of heavy use of oil, and then a lot of like fattier meats, um, and white rice.

I see.

Um, and so that was his usual diet. He ate a lot of like pork and chicken, white rice, and fried foods.

Okay.

And he was a smoker.

How long did it take between the 30 days? So you went full 30 days, right, of 10 minutes a day?

And then I kept going. I just said, you know, this is helping me.

So between that and like recognizing what you were doing lifestyle-wise, how long did it take you? Like a year? 3 months?

I think my wife getting pregnant was was kind of a catalyst for that because it kind of forced me to go to the doctor. I was like, I haven't been to the doctor as an adult, like, unless it was something like urgent I was taking care of. Like, I hadn't gone to any— yeah, since college, I think I hadn't gone to any like preventative visit or— so I said, I'll go get a doctor, right?

Doctors truly are the worst patients, right?

For sure. So I go to the doctor, no longer with this doctor because he was like, very blunt. He was like, you're obese and you need to diet and exercise.

That's what he told me. So easy to say, right?

Right. And then we checked labs and labs were not good.

I had prediabetes.

I had high cholesterol. I had in the office, I had high blood pressure. I didn't even realize my weight had gone that high. I had stopped weighing myself. Mm-hmm. Because I had this assumption in my head that, you know, you're just a bigger guy and your weight's just going to kind of slowly go up over time. And so didn't know what to do, right? I told you I lost 30 pounds for my wedding. That was like 6, 7 years before that. I had done that by, you know, basically eating half the food, not changing the food I was eating, just eating half the quantity and, and then forcing myself to run every day. And I really didn't enjoy it. It would, my knee would hurt. But I did that for 3 months, uh, with the goal of like looking, you know, good in my pictures, in my whatever. And that worked. And then, you know, the day after my wedding, I, I ordered some food and I was in the shower and my wife answered the door and it was like ribs and sausages and mac and cheese. And she said, are you having your groomsmen over? And I said, no, that is for me.

Yes. Wait, so you didn't care about your honeymoon then? You didn't want to look good in that bathing suit?

I didn't care. Well, I didn't even put two and two together. I was sort of like, oh, okay, all this weight, let me just have one, like a reward, reward meal.

Because I've been so—

I said it, I said it at the time, I said, I've been so good. Okay, been so good.

And that brings us to this amazing point you have about changing your perspective around a healthy lifestyle, right? Because we do think we've been good and it's hard. It's hard to run. It's hard to eat healthy. So yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. So how did you start to switch that perspective?

Right. Well, I have to, I would be remiss if I didn't mention one other like talk that I went to. And again, I think it was my brain trying to solve this problem and saying like, you should go to this. And it was a doctor who came to speak from Sacramento, South Sacramento. And I was working in a large like medical system, HMO, at the time. And there were multiple hospitals in Northern California. And so he was at one of the other ones, but he was going to every hospital in the system in Northern California to tell his story. And his story was that when he was 40, he was dropping his two young boys off at school, he started having chest pain. And he drove himself to his emergency room. And this is, you know, goes to the cath lab and finds out he has blockages. And this is shock for him because he's so young, he's 40. And then he said, and during that talk, he said, "Nobody talked to me about my diet. Nobody talked to me about activity." Or if they did, he followed what limited information he got, which is to follow the American Heart Association diet. So he started focusing on like lean meat and exercise. He was exercising a lot. He was going to the gym, he said, multiple times a week. In fact, 6 months later, he was at the gym and he was on the treadmill and he started getting chest pain again.

Oh no.

And so he drove himself back to the hospital, went back to the cath lab, and those stents had closed off and he had more disease such that now he needed bypass surgery. And he was 41.

So this is where we get into the plant-based diet, right? Because even if you think that you're eating lean meats, The meat is different from what it used to be.

That's right.

Right?

That's right.

Can you talk a little bit about that?

First, I'll just say I was sitting there and I was, uh, you know, all you can eat. I like to say I had the seafood diet. You know, I like to see food and eat it.

You're one of many people on that diet.

I ate, right? I ate just whatever was pleasurable and enjoyable. And so I'm sitting there in that session, two things. One, they had the lunch that day were these like whole food, plant-based black bean and sweet potato quesadillas. There was no cheese, actually, but then they had some like guacamole and some salsa with it. And I was eating it and I was like, "This is really delicious." Like, I actually went and took a second one and had it for lunch the next day because there were leftovers, because I enjoyed it so much. And then the other was I was watching him and I was like, you know, this is like, I'm seeing this for a reason. Right. I was 36 at the time. I had already been, I would say, maybe 9 months or almost a year into this like little daily meditation habit. So already I was in a different space. Like my head was, my, I think I was more receptive. And so I signed up for like a 3-week, they called it a challenge, Plant Power Challenge. Everybody do this for 3 weeks. Cause his talk was really inspiring and he changed his diet. To a whole food plant-based diet after the bypass surgery, and it completely changed his health. And that's why he was traveling to every medical center around the region because he really wanted other— and now here I am sitting and I said, wow, I'm hearing this. But after a couple of days, I very quickly stopped doing it because that was all new to me. Like I had never even conceptualized eating that way. And, or if I did, or if I like, I knew people, like I met my wife, my wife was a vegetarian when I met her. And then after like less than a year, I got her to start eating other things.

So you were an influence on her.

Terrible influence. But she would, she would eat things and she'd be like, I don't really enjoy it. Like, what do you see in this? But, um, she sounds like a lovely person, by the way. But I was like a peddler. I was like, no, no, no, this is So, for coming home—

Because you want to share, right? You want to share your joy of fasting.

Yeah, that's right. And this is so delicious. Like, why wouldn't you want to eat this? Like, you have to try this, right? Like, and I still— yeah. So I come home and I tell my wife I'm going to do this and she starts laughing. She's like, no, you're not going to eat this way. And she was right, although it sort of planted a seed. So I spent a year That next coming year, I would, like, on Mondays, I would eat plant-based. I think I needed to prove to myself. I usually, I like to cook and I was so used to cooking meat and meat was like the center of my plate and our, you know, I would roast a piece of pork or cook chicken or whatever. And so I needed to prove to myself that this could be satisfying and enjoyable. And I found all these cool ways to cook. Plant-based food. And then that challenge came around the following year and I signed up again. And I remember telling my wife again, and she's like, she's like, "Didn't you do that last year?" And I said, "This year is different." Like I had mentally been preparing for it too. So I had recipes. I had a go-to like lasagna I could make now with like the ricotta cheese made from tofu. And so I started getting into it.

I wasn't all into it yet, but Well, I love this point you're making because you started something, you didn't do well on it, but it got you to learn more about it and then you tried again. That's right.

Right.

So every time we try again, it's like a little better. Yeah.

That's right. That's right.

Yeah. I love that lesson. Yeah.

Oh yeah.

'Cause oftentimes people are like, or I'm like that, I'll be like, oh, that didn't work. Or, you know, but you have to think about it as a learning process.

So everything was different actually. You're, no, what you're pointing out was my approach was also very different and I had approached like I told you, my weight loss diet for my wedding, that I had approached how I think people commonly, many people commonly use diets as a form of punishment, form of restriction or punishment. And this time around, I very quickly in that 3-week challenge, like the first time around, I stopped because I said, no, no, no, no, I'm not going to punish myself. And if it feels that way, then I'm not doing it the right way.

Mm-hmm.

And so I intentionally said, "How can I eat this way in a way that's enjoyable?" It's gonna take me a little bit of time to figure that out. And once I figured it out, I was like, "Okay, I can do this for 3 weeks." And then once I did it for 3 weeks, well, those 3 weeks were like mind-blowing because my prediabetes reversed, my cholesterol, my bad cholesterol dropped 40 points, my resting heart rate— I wasn't exercising— my resting heart rate went from like the 80s to the to the 60s, like high 50s, low 60s, like what you would see in like someone who's training or exercising regularly. It was just because my heart was getting better blood flow from whole unprocessed plant food.

From 3 weeks.

From 3 weeks.

So you didn't eat any meat for 3 weeks.

I didn't eat. I did a completely whole food plant-based diet for 3 weeks. So I didn't eat any meat, dairy, eggs. Processed food.

And your LDLs, which is the, the cholesterol that's bad cholesterol. So you will, all of those came down within 3 weeks. That's amazing.

And did you lose weight also? And I lost like more than 10 pounds in that 3 weeks.

And you didn't feel deprived.

And I didn't feel deprived. I was in fact eating so much food. Uh, and I tell patients this all the time now. So you're like, if you like to eat, this is the way to do it because you can, you'll eat so much, you'll feel so full and satisfied all the time. And that's how I felt.

Give me your typical day. What are you eating? Breakfast, lunch, dinner? Do you snack?

Yeah, sure. Okay. So, okay, I don't eat until usually 11 at the earliest. So that is just— I time restrict my eating to a window of usually like 11 to 8 or 12 to 8. PM, 8 hours in the day.

And some people like call that fasting, but it's, it's called time restricted in the old, not old, but like medical terminology. That's right. Yeah. You give somebody—

some people call it intermittent fasting.

Yeah.

Like we're all fasting intermittently. Yes.

Because you're sleeping. Right.

Exactly.

In fact, before that, do you drink coffee or anything or no?

I drink green tea in the morning actually. And now I've started drinking. I've, yeah, I still drink green tea in the morning. Not every morning anymore, but, um, now I've started drinking, just been intentional about drinking a lot more water, especially in the morning. I find that when I drink a lot of water, like when I wake up, it helps me wake up. Like if you drink cold water, ice water in the morning, it sort of revs you up. Your level of like, you know, certain chemicals like adrenaline go up with ice water in particular.

Interesting. So I went to see an Ayurvedic doctor, Cornell physician. He was influenced by Ayurveda.

Okay.

He's like American trained.

Sure, sure, sure.

Biggest thing he told me for all of our time that we spent together was that the first cup of water should be hot or warm.

Hot.

I know. 'Cause it really moves your digestive system. So I'm just saying for, you know, whoever's listening, like basically that is the miracle drug of the morning. And I actually put a lot of people on that and that, that's right. Makes the, the bowels so regular. Yeah. And if anything makes people upset is irregular bowels, right? But I love the ice thing. I'm gonna try that after the—

you, uh, you eat a mostly whole food plant-based diet as well?

Mostly I do because I just can't stand the feeling of meat. I can't chew it. I don't know.

It's weird.

I haven't had a hamburger in like, I dunno, 7 years. I wanna know what you're doing. I'm like, you know, older females, it's different, but I need to lose some pounds.

I've lost. Yeah. So weight loss-wise. I mean, just on the sheer number, like I've lost like more than 70 pounds.

Wow. Over what time period?

I'd say the first— honestly, the first year I lost close to 50 pounds. Wow.

Just doing plant-based?

Just doing plant-based and this time-restricted eating.

Okay. And you didn't eat any processed foods or you'd have once in a while?

So, no, no. When I went back to after the 3 weeks, I said to myself, I'm going to do this 80% of the time. I honestly went back to eating some of the same foods, like I just ate, but it was a process over probably the next 6 months where I was like, every time I would, like, let's say I would go a month and then I decided, "Oh, I'm going to go get In-N-Out today." Again, to like, I still had that mentality, like, "I'm going to reward myself." Sure. But it was different because I would eat it. And of course, when I was eating it, I would be like, "Oh, this is good." But honestly, it didn't have the same effect. And then afterwards I would feel bad. Like I would, I would feel tired. I would feel sluggish. I very quickly realized how the food was affecting my energy levels.

And mood, right?

And mood too. Yeah, absolutely. And so like even at work, like I used to eat, you know, it's funny, like I think this is changing, but like even at hospitals and the doctors and nurses, they'll get lunch., but they get the unhealthiest, like they get pizza and pasta. And so I would eat that every day because they had lunch provided.

Oh, it's back to that free meal pass, right?

Right.

So cool.

Right. So I'd eat that for lunch and how you feel in the afternoon, you know, it makes you pretty sluggish and tired. And that's when you're like sort of trying to get your work done. And so of course it would put me in even kind of grumpier mood. And what was my like solution to that was like to eat more of that kind of food on the way home to get the kind of the hit or the fix that I was needing. Yeah, no, I was only—

so you just keep eating more because you just keep eating more, like you're gonna get energy from that food, but you don't.

And you do for momentarily, momentarily, but then it just, it makes you feel worse. And so I would go like occasionally to get that kind of food or eat that kind of food, or I'd go out with friends and I'd be like, okay, tonight I'm not gonna eat I'm just gonna eat how I normally do. That's what I was telling myself at the time. But then I would feel bad, like I would feel sluggish or get worse sleep or like my heartburn would come back. And I had heartburn all throughout my adult life until I started eating plant— like in those 3 weeks, my heartburn went away. And I was like, what is this magic cure? And then it would come back on like a night if I went out to eat somewhere and didn't eat that way. So it really became over time, You know, he asked, like, I think the thing that helps people get the results they want is consistency, right? Is being consistent on a regular basis. Because if you're— the thing you're doing maintains a calorie deficit and promotes whatever your goal is, and you're able to do it consistently, then you'll get the result eventually. Like, and there's maybe some tweaking. And most of the time we're trying to kind of use willpower to get ourselves to do that thing, because that thing isn't the thing we actually want to do. Like, it's not the thing I actually want to eat. It's not the way I actually— and so I would say to myself, I've been good, so I'm going to reward myself, right? This time, I think what I— the magic of this was I figured out a way to eat food that I really enjoyed, that was satisfying, that also— and basically create a lifestyle, right? I mean, this is why we call it lifestyle medicine, because when you're creating a lifestyle You're designing— I say this all the time now— you should design behaviors that actually feel good.

Mm-hmm.

You should design behaviors that you actually enjoy, because the minute life gets stressful or hard, or you're going to revert to doing the thing that gives you comfort and feels good. So if you found a way to eat that feels good and is comforting and is actually also the food you should be eating, it tastes good and it's convenient, then you don't have to struggle. You don't have to police yourself. You're going to do that thing. And so I constantly am trying to find more and more ways to do this. Anytime I'm resisting something, I ask myself, okay, how could I do this in a way that actually— or how can I emphasize the things that feel good about this? Like, I love to stay up late. I'm like a night owl, right? I love to stay up 2, 3 in the morning left to my own devices. And so I have to like now remind myself how good I feel when I get a very productive morning. And I'm not going to be able to get up early and have a productive morning if I don't go to bed early.

Mm-hmm. Like, so you have to remind yourself constantly.

There's a reminder. Yeah.

And then once in a while we falter. And then once in a while we falter.

And when we falter, I really connect with how that choice doesn't feel good. So the next morning, like, if I'll stay up late, let's say, like, I don't know, binge watching a show, like, I'll still do that sometimes.

I can relate. Yes.

And then the next morning, and I still have to get up the next morning, but I feel like super groggy. I might hit snooze 2 or 3 times. And I just stop in that moment and I say, this, this how you feel right now? It's because of that choice you made last last night. And next time I will have a kind of maybe a different decision because I'm on a— I'm internalizing those sensations.

That's solidification of, you know, reflection why you're feeling bad in the morning. Probably— I mean, not probably, definitely helps your brain to remember it more clearly, right? Because otherwise we just forget. If we don't reflect on it, then we forget.

And you become disillusioned with the thing that you thought serving you or that you really enjoy. You may enjoy it, but you become disillusioned with it.

And then you have to use your power. Once you remind yourself. We have such bad memories. So if we write it down and keep a log, it's even better because then you can actually look back and say, hey, made me feel bad. I mean, you have to be pretty organized to do that. I don't know if I'm like that all the time.

Yeah.

But, um, it's ideally to have that feedback of measuring it and seeing what felt good and what didn't, you know?

I'll have my patients do this with like You've heard, you know, there's food logs. I use food logs in such a way where I want them to write down— one, I want them to become aware of what they're eating. Just be aware of what they're eating. It doesn't matter what they're eating at first.

Don't be judgy. Yep.

Yeah, exactly.

Don't beat yourself up.

What do I actually just reach for and eat? And that, you know, it's a way to just at least understand where you are right now. But then I also will have them write like how they're feeling, both when they eat it and then later they can reflect on how they felt after they ate it, like a couple hours, few hours after they ate it. And both in terms of their mood and their energy levels.

And this going back to that, what I was saying about the future self and the inability to connect, what you're saying is like you're getting them to practice to connect to that future self, right? Because you remember what happened before and then you know you're going to feel like that. In the future, which we often forget.

That's right. And the things they'll say, and I've experienced this, you've probably experienced this, is they'll be like, oh, I did, I had a lot of desserts at that party last weekend, and then I felt hungover the next morning. And one woman wrote that, or told me that, and I was like, that hungover feeling, like, sit there and just really take it in and remind yourself next time you're not gonna want— your brain is gonna see those desserts and get a little like queasy, or you're just gonna, you're gonna stop yourself a little bit cuz you're like, oh, that felt so terrible.

But you had to learn how to manage your stress first, which was where the meditation came in. Right? That sounds like what had happened to you is that you spent a year kind of learning how to manage stress.

I said, yeah, meditation in that sense, I think is just this tool to really increase the level of awareness that you have in your life. And it's just awareness. Like so many things were like, I've been pointing out like that food log is just a mechanism to be aware of the food you're eating, but the awareness of how food makes you feel, awareness of your choices on. And so you go from like actually making choices on a regular basis as opposed to reacting. And that could be with food, but that could also just be with your emotions or, you know, like—

which closely relate to the food we're reaching for.

That's right.

Yeah. So what about exercise? Did you do anything with exercise?

I'd say about, so about a year of eating this way, I felt really good. And I said to myself, I said, I should probably exercise. So what did I do? Cause I didn't, you know, my experience with exercise before was like, I would force myself to, I used to go to, you know, I was a member at a gym, one of those big gyms. And I would go like, around New Year's and then around my birthday, and I would like stand in line for a treadmill, and I hated the treadmills. I don't know why I was standing in line for the treadmill, but I didn't know what I was doing. And I also just had in my head like, this is something I should be doing. And so again, it got in my head, this is something I should be doing. And so I started running and didn't enjoy running. And I don't know how I sort of came to the realization that like, oh, this should be like like how you approached food. Like, it shouldn't feel like a punishment. And so then I stopped and I said, well, what is it that I enjoy doing? And I had never been like very athletic, you know, growing up. Like, my parents tried. They put me in all sorts of sports teams and things. And I wasn't a natural by any means. So I wasn't super active. And I was like, I don't really know what I enjoy doing, but I got to try something different. So I found this like really small gym near my house. On Yelp that seemed unconventional. And it was like a group training gym where like, they teach you how to strength train in a group. And it was centered around like big lifts, like squats and deadlifts. And I'd never done that kind of stuff before. So I just— but, but I was like, well, what I'm doing now isn't working. And so what do I have to lose? So I just showed up. And again, I was just like, okay, let me try this for a month. And it was really hard for me. I remember the first Although it was really amazing, like, too, like that I was like, I would finish a workout and I'm like, I did that. And then very quickly I could start to see like I was getting stronger and I was making friends there. I was, you know, I was in my late 30s and I had this story in my head that at that age, oh, I guess you don't make new friends anymore, which is such a terrible story. But I was, you know, I was like, oh no, there's all these people. And I just started looking forward to going there and I was like, that's cool. Like, I actually look forward to exercising. Like, that's— I've never experienced that. I've never experienced that before.

Awesome. So you had feedback, the measurement of improvement, and that community. Awesome.

That's right. And I wasn't focused on losing weight in that moment either. Like, I had lost a fair amount of weight, but I was like, I just want to get like fitter and stronger. And, and then you do it long enough, like finally I was doing it for weeks Like my body would actually enjoy it. And I was like, that's cool. Like, cause it got past the point where it was really all about feeling uncomfortable, you know, the first few times I did it, I was really sore. And, you know, I was like, I don't know if I want to do this anymore, but.

I think it's the teachers can make such a massive difference also. I mean, like.

I had two really amazing trainers at that place. That's why I stuck with it. And they, and they would say, they would be like, oh, just kind of, you know, they would modify it for me because they could tell that I was— the first day I showed up and I was doing the warm-up, which was just some, some stretches, and my whole body was shaking. And the trainer said, he said, you don't exercise much, do you? And I was like, no.

I was gonna say that actually, people who have been injured before make great trainers. Like, athletes who have been injured are great trainers because they know how to keep you from being injured. Okay. So we're gonna wrap up, but I just wanna ask you the last question, which is being a parent.

Yeah.

What are you doing differently that maybe perhaps learning from how your childhood went and then understanding how the food landscape is and the convenience food of it and the addictive nature of the food. Yeah. What are you doing as far as your children? How old are they?

So my kid, I have a daughter who's 11. My son is 9 and my younger son, I have 2 sons. Is 7. Wow. Yeah.

Congratulations. I love kids. That's a lot of kids very close together.

Oh, yeah. They're amazing. And they're like older now, so they do a lot of stuff. Like they can make their own peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Nice. Get their cereal. It's interesting because I grew up around a lot of processed food and, and fast food. Now that stuff still exists and they still partake in it. But I am very open about talking about it, like, and what it is and isn't. And so I think they have a very different relationship with it. I know they do, actually. It's almost like now they enjoy it and they expect it on— at certain intervals, but they don't ask for it and they don't want it when they don't get it at those intervals.

And you can also make those fruits really rewarding, right?

That's the other thing. All the other food they eat, like the health, quote unquote, healthy food, like tofu stir fry. And it's really delicious. And I think, you know, I try to meet and like, oh, my one son doesn't like corn. So I'll make chili and like, keep the corn on the side. And because my two other kids really like corn. And so I'm meeting their preferences. I do all the grocery shopping in the house. Wow. There's always lots of colorful fresh fruits cut up and lots of veggies. And, you know, I do this with patients too. I ask them when we're starting this journey, I tell them to write down their favorite fruits and their favorite vegetables and their favorite, favorite, favorite, favorite, the things they love to eat. And then we focus on eating those things first.

Nice.

And so it's like when you're eating the food that you love, you don't start asking like, why don't I have that other thing? All right. And so that's one with the food for my kids. But just in general, I think mindfulness has really shifted on how I interact and relate to them on a regular basis, I really try to hear them and see exactly what they're experiencing. And so if they're upset, my old practice would be to like just yell at them and tell them, this is the way it is. Like, this is what—

because it's faster.

Yeah, because it's faster.

You think you're saving time by yelling.

You think you're saving time by yelling.

But it's not. Yeah. In the end, it's— and it may work in that moment to a point, right?

In that moment, it may work. And then it may work, but then it's sort of like anything else. Well, then you have to keep using it and you have to yell more. And, and so the energy it creates in the relationship, how it affects it, is it's not enjoyable for anyone. Certainly not enjoyable for me. So now I really listen deeply. So my child might be wanting something and I, oh, I see this is really important to you. Like it's really important that you watch an extra hour of TV tonight. And I acknowledge that and I listen to them and it doesn't mean I'm not parenting them. So I've been really influenced by, I don't know if you know Julie King or How to Talk So Kids Will Listen, How to Listen So Kids Will Talk, or she, she wrote the sequel, How to Talk So Little Kids Will Listen. And she has a third book now, but that I had attended some parenting workshops that she ran because she lives in the Bay Area and then whole philosophy around really listening deeply to children and then also like making things into games. Oh, you gotta put away the blocks. You know, the container is like a monster and you gotta feed the monster.

Use the imagination.

Right.

Put on a timer and the kids will just like—

They love timers and they love competition. And it's like, oh, who can pick up the most blocks in the next, you know, it's like, go. And then suddenly cleanup is a game, right? I love it. That struggle of like, oh, how do I get them to clean up to like, she calls them the tools, you know, in that book that she uses. So my wife and I, you go often here in our house, like if somebody's getting frustrated or upset, the other one will yell across the home, use the tool. I love it.

I think you're doing an amazing job. Gosh, just like upward trajectory. And I know you probably have, you know, fall off the wagon sometimes, but just sounds like you're getting better and better and better at everything.

Better and better and better.

And I just wanna point out that the thing that kept coming back as the common thread for you is that you're curious. You wanna try new things. You're always willing to just try something for a month or a week. And I think that's really the key, right? Just being really curious about something and then investigating it and see if it works for you and then change it if it doesn't. You know, everybody's different. I have one more question for you.

Go ahead.

And this is something fascinating to me. How did it affect your depression?

Immensely. You know, depression is one of those things. I probably had it when I was a teenager. Didn't really know what it was. Probably had it in college. Definitely had it in college. Didn't know what it was. I would go through these like couple week periods sometimes where I just wouldn't go to class. Oh. And you know, right? Because I didn't feel like doing anything. And at the time I just didn't know.

I mean, I think they say 1 out of 2 college students feel that way.

Yeah.

Or maybe even more now.

And this was in the '90s. I don't know. I mean, I think it's probably better now on campuses, the awareness, but like there was no, I mean, I was just sort of like, okay. And I wasn't going to class, but I was like still like a high achieving pre-med. So I was getting the notes from someone and figuring it out and catching up on the weekends and It was just sort of these cycles I would go through. And then finally in medical school, I was doing our psychiatry rotation and I sort of self-diagnosed myself. I was like, oh, this is why you go through these periods. And this is why. And I finally saw someone then and I started medication, antidepressant in medical school. And I'm really glad I did because it really helped me feel normal. I would say like it normalized my mood in such a way that I was like, I haven't felt this way. Ever, I think. I took that medication for several years and there were always these like sort of ups and downs and peaks and valleys. And I think it became harder in retrospect. My depression probably became harder to manage with medication because my lifestyle was so contributory to that. Because we know movement is one of the best medications or best treatments for depression, right? It's as effective as antidepressant. In fact, in some cases, in many cases, more effective. Once I started doing regular movement, and now like ex— I like to call it movement because exercise feels like a chore. And movement is really what it is. It's like an opportunity to feel good. And so I do regular movement. I do regular meditation. I do other things, you know, I do cold, cold plunge. Um, and I have become a huge believer in that in terms of the mood effects. So—

Well, snaps you out, right? Snaps you out.

It gets you out of your head.

If you're ruminating and you put it in cold shower, you're like, whoa.

Absolutely. Well, there's a dopamine increase that you get in the cold exposure that persists even afterwards. And so I do that every week. And so when the pandemic came around, I was following up with a psychiatrist. He wasn't seeing people virtually. I just sort of didn't go see him for several months. I'm not advocating this for anyone, by the way, but my prescription lapsed and I sort of just kind of tapered it off myself. Okay.

So you were on meds for a long, long time.

I was on meds for a long, long time. I don't know if that was the wisest way to come off of medication, to be honest, because the pandemic— I was working in the hospital and the pandemic was actually a really hard time for me. But I also, like, going into COVID and working in the hospital, I kind of doubled down on all my lifestyle. Habits. So I really, really started embracing whole food plant-based eating, like, even more intently. I really— and the gyms closed, so I started— I actually started running and enjoying it. That's another story. I can tell you how I went from hating running to enjoying running.

Oh, you definitely have to come back for sure. I want to congratulate you because you've been— a handful of years really turned your life around. I mean, oh, you were headed for the usual stuff, like you were saying, all the chronic illnesses. And this is amazing. And the depression also.

Well, Juna, can I end with that then? Yes. The reason, I mean, I have changed my life immensely, and that is what inspired me to really get certified in lifestyle medicine. That's why I started asking the question, why aren't we doing this for patients? That's why I started sitting at the bedside of my cardiac patients, my heart patients who came with heart attacks and strokes, came in for bypass surgery. And that's why ultimately left that job as a hospital doctor because it was so downstream. Now I practice lifestyle medicine full-time, and I really— my mission in life is to help lots and lots of people change their lifestyle and also change our healthcare system to one that focuses on whole health and not on mitigating illness, which is kind of the system that we have now. So if people want to find me, yes, one, I have a podcast. It's called The Health Feast, and you can find us at thehealthfeast.com. And it's called a health feast because that's exactly what I view good health as, something as an opportunity to feel good. And feast connotes all those things you think of like indulgence. We don't usually associate that with things that are healthy, but as you've heard during this interview, that's the ticket to making it sustainable, is actually making your good health a feast. And then you can visit my website. It's rakyourlife.com. R-A-K-Y-O-U-R-L-I-F-E.com. And you can find me on Instagram at @rakyourlife as well. Love it. And it was just a really amazing pleasure to be here today.

This was such an awesome conversation. I bet we have to do a challenge. Okay.

Okay.

Absolutely. Very excited.

Thank you.

Hopefully I'll see you at the Lifestyle Medicine Conference.

Oh, definitely. I'll be there in Denver this year.

Colorado, right?

Yes, that's right.

Thank you, Rock.

All right. Take care, everyone. Bye.

Thank you so much for listening. Forward this to a friend, a family member, anyone who needs to stress less, and soon enough you'll be surrounded by more Zen people. Your support is literally what makes this possible. Subscribe and head on over to YouTube to my Fall Asleep Easy channel, sign up for updates at mindbodyspace.com and get special tips into your inbox once a month. Until next time, this is Dr.

Juna Bobby MD wishing you wellness.