How To Create New Habits To Change Anything In Your Life With Leo Babauta Of Zen Habits

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I can't even believe who I have here with me today. His name is Leo Babauta. You might have heard of his blog. It's called Zen Habits, and it has more than 2 million readers, with Time magazine naming it one of their top 25 blogs and top 50 websites. When I started on my path to mind-body medicine and minimalism, his blog was one of the first ones that really spoke to me. According to Leo, Zen Habits is about finding simplicity and mindfulness in the daily chaos of our lives. It's about clearing the clutter so that we can focus on what's more important, create something amazing, and find happiness. It's about clearing the clutter so we can focus on what's important, create something amazing, find happiness. You're going to love this conversation. He's going to give us so many tips on how to slowly but surely transform into a healthier, wealthier, and happier life. Hey Leo, thank you so much for being here today.

Sure, uh, thanks for having me.

You sound great. Which microphone are you using?

This, uh, some kind of Audio-Technica microphone.

It sounds great, and I've been listening to your new podcast, so awesome.

Yeah, any feedback on that?

I just listened to the first few. It sounds great. It's like a challenge, right?

Yeah, yeah, just inviting people to play along, for sure. Yeah.

Do you want to tell the audience about your new podcast and like what it's about? Sure.

Yeah, so the new podcast, well, it's something that I've been wanting to do for years. I really like to deepen the conversation from the blog posts that I do on Zen Habits. But I decided this year to finally like commit myself to doing it because there's always like a thousand reasons not to do it. You know, always so busy, but I committed myself and I decided to— I wasn't sure what I wanted to focus on because I have a lot of topics that I'm really interested in and that I'd like to write about, but I decided to do it in seasons. And so this first season is about fear and resistance and uncertainty, especially around your purpose work, meaningful work. And So it's going to be about 4 months long and it's inviting people to be a part of it. So they aren't just like listening and learning, but actually putting it into action, which is where they'll run up against their actual resistance and uncertainty and fear. They're actually trying to put into action and then they can send in questions. I might do some live coaching and it'll be more interactive, more of a dynamic kind of process.

Wow. Well, I liked it when I first heard your introduction of it, and then I think I listened to the first episode or two, but I have— now that I hear you talking about it again, I definitely need it. Okay, I'm on there. And, uh, yeah, how are you doing the lives? You're gonna have people call in with questions or, you know, things like that, or are you doing on YouTube Live? What are you doing?

You know, I haven't figured that out. There's so many live platforms now. It could actually come on to this one that we're doing right now, but, or there's Zoom, there's Facebook Live. So, I might just play around with it and see which, what works, you know?

Awesome.

But the main thing is, yeah, get someone on, have a conversation, and do some coaching.

Okay, well, I love your voice, so your podcast is—

Awesome.

You know, I'm sure is gonna take off. And this idea of resistance and changing and doing meaningful work, which is all, you know, what I'm trying to do right now, or have been trying to do for the last decade or two. Yeah, I think that's a great idea to have people interact with you in that way. And, you know, I already gave your introduction, but I mean, obviously you're one of my idols because you started your blog way back in 2005, right?

Was it— 2007 is when the blog started. 2005 when I started making all the changes that I've made in my life. Yeah, no, 2005 is when I started making the changes. And then after like a year plus of doing that, I started Zen Habits. So 2007 is when I started the blog.

Okay. So when you started 2007, had you already changed a lot of things? Because I know at that time you had some debt you were talking about that you paid off and then you changed a ton of habits.

Um, yeah.

Could you refresh us on the beginnings of your amazing blog, which to this day I think is the most beautiful because it's so so clean looking, you know, just the appearance of it. I love it. I don't think there's many blogs that look like that, and I certainly try to look like that, but I can never do it.

It's an art for sure.

Yeah, it's a restraint because you can't, you know, like you want to add things, but you just have to restrain yourself.

Yeah, I'll talk about my journey in 2005, but to speak to what you just said, And I realized is like, I didn't like going to other people's websites because it was always like things popping up and also cluttered and it just was stressful. And so I'm like, what, what's the experience that I would like to have reading? And so I created that for the blog. So yeah, simplicity is definitely the name of the game for me.

Well, I just want to add to that, that even though you said to yourself, this is what I would want to see and you made it that way, you haven't changed it, which is such— to me, that's so beautiful because I'm always changing everything. I'm like constantly changing my website. And you are somebody that I aspire to be like that. I mean, I have other strengths.

Sure, sure.

I'm not knocking myself, but I do definitely like aspire to something like that where you have that multimedia presence where you are so calm and zen and your page is Zen. I'm sure your life is not always Zen because you have 6 kids and all that, right? You have 6 kids, right? If I remember correctly.

6 kids. Most of them are adults now. Actually, they're almost all grown. So, uh, but yeah, even still, they're still very much in my life and my life is abundant. And, uh, yeah, it's not always calm and Zen for sure.

Anyway, I was going off track, but I'm decluttering again today. I'm actually a minimalist in my house. But again, it's always an uphill battle to stay very minimal, right?

Yeah, that's like the website. Our lives are like that, where it's just always the tendency is to accumulate, you know, and it's not because of anything wrong with us. It's just like people give us stuff, we go out into the world and get things. Sometimes we get really interested in something and start buying stuff, and then all of a sudden, oh, I need to like kind of fight against the trend. So, yes, simplicity and minimalism are not— they don't come for free. We have to actually work at it. I'm definitely guilty of like ordering too many things on Amazon once in a while, and then I have to say like, is this, you know, looking around, is this what I want? Or, you know, and so like, you know, recently I actually went on a little bit of a spree of not buying, but getting rid of stuff, things, sending things out the door and like paring down to the essentials. And that's so much fun, as I'm sure you know.

It's fun. And sometimes it can be painful because you're trying to get your family to throw stuff away also. And recently I was diagnosed with allergies to dust, like dust mites, which—

Oh, wow.

It turns out 4 out of 5 American homes all have this. And people might not even know that they're allergic. But it's giving me another reason to just get rid of everything, including even rugs. So yeah, I'm really excited, actually.

That's so cool.

I just have one more question for you for the website. Sure. You never think, oh, I should just add one thing here, make it different? Like, has the font stayed the same?

No, you know, actually, I changed it a few years ago, maybe 4 or 5 years ago. But, uh, it wasn't much different. So I, I just kind of did a little bit of a refresh with different fonts. But, um, yeah, it's, for me, there's like, there's something I do get tempted to add stuff to it. Um, but there's something about it that I really love. And so it's just like, I don't know, I, it's trying to protect something that I cherish. Do you know what I mean?

And I appreciate it cuz I love looking at your blog page. But when those thoughts come, like you wanna add stuff, what do you do to process that?

Yeah, I have to return to like, what's important to me? What am I committed to creating in the world? And there's, you know, the things that I want to add usually are something that will benefit me, you know, as a business. And so I'm like, oh, this would be really great. And then it's just like, well, you know, is it worth losing what I've created that I really love? And so yeah, that's That's kind of the process.

And what you love is simplicity, like you were saying again, and you were going to go back and tell us about the beginning of your journey and why you changed and how you changed, because I think most people want to know, how do you change? It's so hard, right?

Yeah, that's my— one of my favorite topics. So, um, so 2005, I was living in Guam where I'm from. Uh, we had 5 kids and one on the way, and, um, So, my wife was pregnant and I was in a place where I felt really stuck. So, I was a smoker, I was sedentary, I was overweight, I had really bad diet, I couldn't change, I couldn't exercise. I was really— I tried to exercise a whole bunch of times and I couldn't stick to it. I was a procrastinator, I woke up, I, you know, just bad sleep habits, really deeply in debt. So, just like, a lot of clutter. So pretty much my whole life was a huge mess. And I was like, I really want to change all of it. And I kept failing. And so I decided I'm going to start with one thing. And I chose quitting smoking, which was one of the hardest ones. So that, that, you know, was difficult. But I really like that I chose it now that I look back on it, because I I did a lot of research and there was a lot of stuff about how to quit smoking. And so, I took things from the National, you know, American Cancer Society and, you know, different things online where people were helping each other to quit. And I started putting them into action. I tried everything. It's like throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks, you know? And I learned some things that actually helped me with the next thing, which was running. So I wanted to run to relieve stress and to get a little bit healthier. And so I started running. I couldn't even run for like 5 minutes, 10 minutes. And then eventually I could run 3 miles and I ran my first 5K. And then I'm like, I'm signing up for a marathon. So I committed to running a marathon a year later, which was in December 2006. And so I applied a lot of the same things that I learned from smoking to running. And then eating healthier. Eventually I became vegetarian and then later vegan. I started applying it to clutter and getting rid of debt and pretty much everything. And by the end of 2006, I changed so many things. I was still in the middle of the process. I always am, actually. But I was— I changed so much. I wasn't out of debt yet, but I was much further along in the journey. I was waking up earlier. I wasn't procrastinating as much. I was running and eating healthier. I had lost a bunch of weight, I think like 30 pounds at that time. Eventually it was like 60 pounds. And so I wanted to start Zen Habits in January 2007 as a way to like chronicle all of those changes and some of the things I was learning and share it with others and also use it for some accountability. So I want— I still had like debt that I wanted to get out of. So I was like, I'm going to commit myself to like being accountable for spending and debt and all of that stuff.

That's an incredible story, but it's almost too incredible.

Sure.

So I want to ask you details because most people will hear that, and I was listening and I'm like, how did he do all that?

Like, how the hell?

You know what I mean? I mean, I've made changes in my life, but, um, I guess it's gradual, but you did it within a year. So to me, that sounds fantastic and amazing, but how did you do it? Like, were you as a kid, when you grew up, were you into health? Did you understand how to eat clean? Was this all stuff you learned? So you were smoking, what, you know, did you know that smoking is bad for you?

I knew, yeah. I knew smoking was bad for me. The smoking one, so first of all, one answer to what you're saying is it was really messy. Like I gave you kind of the short version, but if you go into the real, real version of it, It was like I would start and stop and I would— but along the way, as I was working with all of the messiness, I learned things that actually helped with all of that. So, like, there's times when you're going to be doing really great and then you're going to fall off and get really discouraged. And that's a really key part of any process. And if you, if you just let that be the end of the story, then, like, you really missed out on what it's like to come back from that. And so if you can learn how to come back from that, then you can you know, overcome really anything. So, so how did you learn?

I mean, did you have any background in, you know, meditation or Zen or—

No. Oh, that was another one.

Like, what was your upbringing like? What was Leo up until— how old were you when you started this whole transformation?

Uh, in my early 30s.

Early 30s. So who was Leo until early 30s? Were you like, you know, you said you're procrastinating, you're sleeping irregularly, you were just eating poorly, junk food, not exercising, all those things. So how does Leo, who is used to that, like, were you already priming your brain prior to that? Were you watching, let's say, documentaries or reading books?

No. So up until then, I mean, I would say I was living in the island of Guam, which was, it's, you know, tropical, but it's also very American. So it's very much like the US, but Kind of like Hawaii, like US, but in the tropics, you know? So, um, so I was living there, but I, yeah, I would say I lived a typical American life in a lot of ways, um, other than probably having more kids than average. Um, but we spent too much. We were in debt. Everyone in Guam has 6 kids, uh, practically. But, um, yeah, they're Catholic and make a lot of babies. But anyway, um, so yeah, so, um, My life was very typical and I had tried a lot of things in terms of priming myself. I tried, you know, a lot of diets. So, I remember back then there was like Atkins diet, I had done that, South Beach diet, like all the fad diets at the time. I tried them and failed. A bunch of things in like men's magazines that I tried and none of them worked. And so, I think those actually really helped is trying a bunch of stuff. And seeing myself failing. It was discouraging and frustrating, but I think those, in terms of priming myself, that was really important. I tried—

For years you were doing that? Like in your early 30s or something when you started having kids, maybe?

Right. For years. And I had tried also, um, all kinds of exercise plans and, you know, couldn't, couldn't make them stick. I tried quitting smoking 7 times and I failed every single time. And so those were all important. I also had read a book called Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, which kind of woke me up to that. I was not a meditator, but I started meditating when I quit smoking because I realized I had done a bunch of things in terms of tracking when I had the urge to smoke and what was triggering that. And I realized that the thing that was in common was that it was all stress. It was like stress of being in an argument, stress of, you know, having some stressful meeting at work or being overloaded with my day or kids are going crazy. So, all of it was stress and I had to have a way to relieve that that wasn't smoking. Because you can't just take away the, you know, the bad habit and just think that everything's going to be fine. Like, you have to have something to replace it. If there's no other coping mechanism, eventually you're going to be like, ah, and then finally go back to it, which is what had happened all the other times. So, the things that I did to cope with stress was one, running. So, I started running, but I couldn't do that, you know, 40 times a day. So, running was one. I meditated, but I also, like, you know, didn't do that every single time. I would kind of massage my neck and breathe deeper. Eating was another one, but that wasn't healthy, so I eventually started eating frozen grapes because they're healthy, but they do something in the mouth that kind of replaces cigarettes. And then also, they're cold and they bring some mindfulness to it. So, actually, that was like a magical trick. I didn't make that up, but someone else gave that to me.

And did you have all these things written on a wall, like all the things you like to do so you could choose?

So, the thing, the reason why that one stuck after failing 7 times was I didn't take it lightly. I got really committed to it. So, what I did was instead of just saying, "I'm going to quit today," like it was like nothing, I said, "I'm going to take this seriously." So, I set a quit date that was 2 weeks in the future. So, November 5th, 2005. Yeah, I think it was something like that, November 12th, 2005. And so I set that as a date, I wrote it down, and then I said, before that, I'm gonna prepare myself so that I'm actually ready. And so what I did is I carried around a little piece of paper and a pencil, and I wrote down little tally marks every time I had the urge to smoke. So if I smoked, I get to smoke, but I always write down the tally mark. And then I would write on another piece of paper. So that was just to bring mindfulness to it, awareness to it. And then I wrote on another piece of paper, what's the thing that came right before it that made me wanna smoke? So, "Oh, I just ate," or "I just woke up," or "I used the bathroom," or I, you know, when I was in a meeting or got into an argument with my wife. So, all of those things, I just wrote them down and I started making a list of triggers. And then, before the actual quit date, I wrote down what am I going to do when each of those happens. So, you know, get into an argument with my wife, what's my replacement? Because it can't be smoking. And then, the other thing that I did that really helped was I made a commitment to my wife who was pregnant And after her pregnancy, she was very likely to go back to smoking if I was smoking. So I'm like, I'm making a commitment to you. And I made a commitment to my oldest daughter who was like 12 at the time.

Oh, wow.

And I said, I'm not gonna, I won't, I'm committed to smoking and I promise you that I will. And promising them and having them as the reason, her, you know, not just that one daughter, but all my kids as a reason that this really mattered to me. I was not only saving my own life, I was saving theirs and my wife's life. That was what I had to call into mind when I had the urge and I was like, "It's okay to smoke. It's just this one time." You know, whatever story I told myself. When I had that urge, I had to remember my promise and remember why this mattered.

Was there ever any times where you felt like, "Yeah, I know this matters, but I don't care." Because you're in such a bad mood.

Oh yeah.

Because I know I do that sometimes.

Yeah. Yeah. So at that point—

Talk about resistance, right?

That's exactly it.

I mean, like, this sounds like nothing, but it is something for me because I do really need to do this. But I had a bag of potato chips and I wasn't supposed to. I'm like, you know, I'm trying to bring down my cholesterol right now. So—

That's right.

But then the resistance is like, eh, yeah, I know, I know I'm not supposed to do this, but I'm going to do it anyway. That's the resistance, right? That's that voice.

And you can do it.

And it sounds like you did it anyway and you tallied it.

Well, somehow that was— I let myself do that before the quit date. After the quit date, what I promised was not one puff ever. NOPE was my acronym. Not a single one, because I knew that that was my tendency. I knew it was like, oh, this time is okay. This one time. And of course, that one time isn't going to kill you. There's truth to that. That's why it works, because there's, you know, like one potato chip. You know, that's nothing. But I knew that that was always—

Even as I say it now, it sounds stupid. Like, oh, I had a bag of— People will be like, so? Who cares?

So what, right?

Yeah, but it does matter.

What I knew from experience, from watching this, is that that was a lie. It was a way to lie to myself. It was like, one puff is okay. But I always knew that it's going to lead to the second one and the third, and then I'm just back to smoking. And so that actually— that one would actually kill me. Is what I had to tell myself. And so what I had to do to deal with that resistance that you're asking about is create a moat. So it's so easy when the potato chips are right there or the pack of cigarettes are right there just to reach for it and get it. So, you know, I actually created this with, with food too when I started changing my diet was I, I got rid of all the cigarettes so they, there weren't any in the house. When I changed my eating later, I also got rid of junk food or I would put it somewhere where I couldn't access it, but my wife and kids could if they wanted to have it still. And so, like, they're, you know, like, basically, literally, like, padlocking it so that I couldn't get it. And so, I had to create a moat like that. In order to get a cigarette, I'd have to drive to a store, buy a pack. And so, I had to— what that did is it made it much easier to realize that I was in that resistance that you're talking about. And then I had to have something to do when I realized it. So I could, you know, it wasn't that hard to drive to the store, but what am I going to do when I realize I'm about to do this? So I made a promise to these people, group of people online. I was in this online quit forum and I said, "I won't smoke a single puff until I post on here." So if I have an urge, I have to post somewhere. Say that I'm about to smoke. And that added to the moat. And then the same thing, you know, like I was going to call someone. So, I basically started adding to this moat where it was not easy and it was actually going to be a little bit embarrassing to do it. So, and so, that made me really work with the resistance. But I'll tell you one more thing if that's okay. I just want to share one other thing that's really, really important.

Absolutely.

So, that was the moat and that helped me to not actually reach for it so easily. But I had to learn to work with the urges and this changed my whole life. So, that when the urge comes, before I wouldn't even realize that there's a physical sensation in my body that's an urge, I would just go and do the thing that the urge was telling me to do. So, you know, smoke a cigarette, eat a bag of chips, whatever it is.. And so I would just do it without even thinking about it. It was just like, it was almost like it was a command or like no choice. And so what I did with the urges was I started, when I had the urge, because the moat was there, I'm like, oh, I'm having an urge right now. And so I would turn into, to my body and watch the urge as a physical sensation. It's like a tightness and this rising kind of anxiety really. And when that happens, What I learned to do was just sit with it. And I could watch and it would go stronger and stronger and stronger. And then it would go down in intensity. And it would come back, it would go down and then eventually just like be nothing. So it was in these waves and all I had to do was wait for it to crest. And I realized it wasn't even that hard. Like, it seems like a panic situation, but it's like, you know, momentary and not even that— it's not like, you know, you're curled up in a ball like on the floor, you know, having withdrawal symptoms. It's just like a small urge. And when I learned to do that with quitting smoking, first of all, it put me more at choice and in power. But second of all, I could do that with eating. I could do it with the urge to not go running. I could do it with pretty much everything— procrastinating, you know, focus with work. Wanting to wake up early and debt stuff, all of that kind of stuff. It all came down to urges, which are invisible to most of us. But if you can learn to make them visible and work with them, it's not even that hard. And this is actually how to work with that resistance.

So basically, you learned or you read about it, I don't know, or you're doing mindfulness or meditation, and you noticed that you were having thoughts like, go eat this or smoke that, right? And you just watch that voice in your head, or you felt that physical feeling of— the physical feeling attracted to like this urge. Yeah, wanting to eat it or wanting to do this behavior. And you just watch that feeling in your body, like, I'm feeling an urge in my body to do this.

That's right. And so there is a voice.

I—

that's not so much what I was working with. I did learn to watch that as well, but the voice comes from the physical feeling. So, you have the physical feeling and then you're like, "Ah, go do this." Like, it's okay to do it one time. And that is your— that's your fear, really, like saying, like, you know, give in to this. But there's an urge first. And that's just a physical thing. And you— we have them all day long. It's the urge to check your phone, go to social media, check your messages, email, you know, distract yourself, whatever it is, go to YouTube or Netflix. Like we, we have them, we're driven by them pretty much all day.

Neurologically speaking, it's like your habitual formation and, and basically what people talk about is dopamine hits, even though, I mean, dopamine is in your body and for many different things than just urges, but it's involved in it. So that's what you're describing. That habitual urge is your brain sending neurotransmitters, telling your body to physically want something that brings you pleasure.

Yeah. Or we think it brings pleasure.

Yeah, yeah, only in that moment, because in the long run, it doesn't bring us pleasure at all. You feeling that sensation in your body— neuroscience researchers have shown that emotions and physical sensations actually happen simultaneously. They couldn't separate the timing of thoughts, emotions, physical sensation. Like, it was all just one thing. We don't— yeah, and sometimes it might come from one place or the other, right? Like, you have a thought and then it brings an urge because you're passing by your favorite donut shop.

Sure. Yeah.

Or, or like you're saying, you're just feeling this urge because maybe you're addicted to nicotine, and then the thoughts come after that. Now I have a question for you. What happens when you watch the urge and you're like, yeah, there's that urge, and now it's gone, I don't have to get— do this thing, and then afterwards no urge, but then you're like, ah, you know what, I'm gonna do it now, I could do it anyway? Yeah. Have you ever had that? I've definitely had that.

I'm trying to think because for me, there's always an urge. Oh, okay.

Yeah.

But I don't know if that's true. So I'm only speaking to my experiences. There's pretty much always— it's there. It's maybe like not as strong and so not as obvious. But, you know, maybe not. Maybe it's just a thought that comes in, like you said.

No, maybe you're right. Like, we do have urges all the time. Maybe I'm— yeah, I'm going to definitely look for that.

Well, let's say it was just a thought. You know, it could be either one. But if it's a thought, the way that I work with that is I start to write those thoughts out. So, I'll, you know, maybe I'll eat the bag of potato chips, but then, you know, halfway through the bag, I could have stopped and there's still a thought that says, "Finish the damn bag," right? So, it'd be really good to, like, get present to what those thoughts are. And so, I like to write those down. Because that's what my fear tells me. Like, it's okay. It's not, you know, like, why are you making yourself suffer is another one that I came up with.

That's your fear talking?

Yeah, that's my fear talking. Like, why are you— Can you explain that to me? Okay, so let's say I'm, you know, withholding cigarettes or junk food from myself, kind of parenting myself. Like, it's not a good thing for you. But my— there's a part of me that just like, just let me have this thing that I want right now. That's the kind of part that just wants to have whatever it wants immediately. And there's nothing wrong with that part, but it is afraid that it's not going to get what it wants. It's afraid that you're just making it suffer for your whole life. And so then it just comes up for the fear that comes up is something around like, I can't do this. This is too hard. I'm not, you know, I'm not strong enough. And so it will come up with a thought that's really good at convincing you. And the thought would be something like, life is too short, why are you making yourself suffer? You know what I mean? Something like that. Like, one bag of chips is not gonna be the end of the world. And there's so much truth to those things, you know? Yeah, everyone's doing it, it's not a big deal. Like, why are you— you know, another one is, why are you putting yourself through this? So these are, these are thoughts that come up, and I don't have to believe those thoughts. They're, you know, who knows where these thoughts come from? I believe they come from fear, and it's the fear is trying to convince us to protect us, protect us. Um, and so, um, but the thing is, if you're aware of them, you don't have to believe it. Like, oh yeah, I know, like, I know that one. Again, that's why I put— came up with that acronym. I didn't actually come up with that. I use that acronym, Not One Puff Ever, because it countered the the thing that my fear was telling me, which is one puff, like not even a whole cigarette, one puff is okay. There's so much truth to that. Like, it is okay, you know, one time. And so it is very good at coming up with those things. So I had to see that that was happening and then come up with a counter to it. Like, what's the one that I'm— what am I going to say when that happens? So that's how I recommend working with it.

So you use the if-then.

Exactly.

It's one of the most powerful cognitive behavioral therapies. Did you read about this or it just came intuitively for you?

Again, I did a lot of research into what worked for quitting smoking. So cognitive behavioral stuff was a big part of that. So I pretty much tried everything. And the ones that worked are the ones I'm talking about now. Those are the ones I tried with the other habits. Running and eating and clutter and debt and stuff.

Amazing.

Yeah.

I'm just so curious. I mean, when you were younger, were you— are you like a creature of habit?

Not at all. I don't— I wouldn't say I'm like— I have stronger tendencies to like, you know, no habits than most people. I would say I'm pretty, pretty average. I am now, but I wasn't naturally. Like growing up, I wasn't a creature of habit. You know, in my 20s, I wasn't. I was totally the opposite. That's how I ended up where I was. And so, I wouldn't say I'm naturally a creature of habit. It took some work to get where I am. And even now, like, new habits are not necessarily easy. They don't come for free. So, I have to actually put some work into it. And some of them I definitely have a lot of resistance to. And that's where I've learned to— this is actually what the podcast season is about, is how to work with that resistance now. With what I've learned over the last 5 to 10 years, not back from 2005, but like 2015.

But you've been able to keep up all those habits you started in 2005, right? But you said it was messy, it could come and go.

Yeah, like even now, like, you know, at one point I decided I was gonna wake up at 5:00 AM and then another time it was 4:30 because I wanted to train for a marathon and it's too hot to to run in Guam after 7:00 AM. So, I had to wake up at 4:30 in order to run like 15 miles. So, I was waking up at 4:30 and I formed that habit, but I don't wake up at 4:30 now. So, it's what served me at the time. I don't have all the same habits. I have habits now that work for me, that serve what I'm trying to do now. So, yeah, that's changed, that's evolved over time.

But you never smoked again?

No. And, uh, one time I did, uh, at a funeral. I had one cigarette. Something. Yeah. So I was just like, at that point I just did not have the mental, like, strength to do it. Uh, but I regretted it and it was not enjoyable. And I thought it was what I needed. And, um, no, I— yeah, so no, I haven't, I haven't been smoking. I wouldn't ever smoke again.

Well, I'm sorry for your loss.

Um, thank you.

Yeah. And what about Oh, you're out of debt?

Out of debt. Once in a while I'll take on debt on purpose now, but it's, I manage my money a lot better. There's still some messiness around finances that I'm working with, but definitely a lot better place than I was back in 2005. Yeah.

So what does it take? Like, does it take planning? What would be your number 1, 2, 3 takeaway for somebody who's trying to do something over a very long period of time. You already mentioned doing research and seeing what works for you. We already talked about knowing that it's gonna be messy. That's a big deal. But aside from those things, as these resistances come up for you, even, every human, what would be the top 3 things that you would say that you should do? I'm thinking things like practical things, like people can apply.

Yeah, sure. So, the first one is have a reason why this really matters to you that is not because I suck. Do you know what I mean? Like, I need to fix something broken about me. So, this is usually where self-improvement comes from. It's almost in the term, you know, self-improvement is that I need to improve something about me that I don't like. And that doesn't last. Because when you're up against it, when you're like, "I need to improve this thing about myself. I don't like this about myself and I'm going to need to make it better." At some point, you're going to run up against your resistance and fear and it's going to be really strong. And then you'll be like, "Ah, I don't— I can't do this." And so, it trips you up in that moment. And so, you need something stronger than that. And so, that's why I said I'm saving not only saving my life, I'm saving my daughter's life. My wife's life, all my other kids. It mattered to me. And so, it has to be something like that where there's an emotional resonance to it that, like, you know, you care so much about this that you're willing to walk through walls to make it happen. Because you will have to walk through walls. And so, and you need to make that front and center. Put it somewhere where you can see it and remember it when that resistance hits you. You mean write it down? Yeah, like put it somewhere right next to your computer or on your bathroom mirror or something, you know, by your bed stand. Put it on your lock screen of your phone, multiple places, so that when you are up against your fear and resistance, you will know why this matters.

And you're talking about your wife and kids, and that's your family, but what if it's something else, not wife or kids, and it's something that maybe somebody is waffling on, even though they know that it's something they want for themselves, or it's like something that is so strong. Like creators, right? A lot of creators have this issue, uh, and they'll say, well, maybe I'm not supposed to be an artist or a writer or an author, whatever.

That's your resistance. Yeah.

Yeah. So how do you convince yourself that is your core being? Because for me, my kids, my husband, I feel the same way. Like, I would do anything for them, right? But how do you— if it's something optional, like you don't have to be an artist to feed yourself or feed your family, like, sure, how do you work with that?

Well, like, you might notice for a lot of us that that often will come from a place like, I need to put this out there because then I can say I'm an artist, you know, then I'll, you know, somehow validate myself. So, that's kind of from the same place of I need to fix something about myself. I feel sucky that I haven't been putting my art out there. So, there has to be a different, more expansive reason. So, for example, I want to put my art out there because I'm hoping to light up people's lives, or I want to get them into a deeper— in touch with a deeper part of themselves. That's something that might matter to you. Like, I really want that. Outside of myself. It doesn't have to be outside of yourself. Maybe there's like, there's a song that I need to sing that just needs to get out. It just needs to. It's not because I suck if I don't do it. It's just that it has to get out. And so that, that's a reason, you know, like that's something—

You feel almost constipated, backed up.

It just needs to come out.

It needs some fiber.

So there's There is something that you just, you feel called to express. There's a part of yourself that needs to be expressed into the world.

That's profound. That's actually profound because the other stuff could sometimes falter, right? Like, you have a bad day, you're like, "Ah, I don't care what other people are doing today." Right. "And they don't like me anyway." Right.

But the other way that I like to look at it is like, is there, you know, imagine, so if you were trying to put a book out and it was like to help people. And so, you have to make an emotional connection to the people you want to help. Like, this is a version of you that was— that's suffering right now. And so, you just remember what it was like to be suffering and just feel like how strong that is to want to help that person. And so, you might even picture what that person is going through in their lives right now and say like, I I need to help them. I like— this is not about validating myself. This is because I care deeply about these kind of people. So that's the— so that would be number one. You asked for three things. Number one is have a reason that like really matters to you beyond like I suck. Second one is have some kind of commitment and structure. So I mentioned some things that I did with quitting smoking where I made a promise. So, that's a commitment. I made a promise also to the smoking forum where I was going to post something there before I smoked. So, that's a commitment. And then I, you know, so structure, if you're writing a book or putting, you know, creating something, it's like, when am I going to actually sit down and create? When am I going to go into the studio? When am I going to sit in front of my writing project and actually start writing? So, when is that going to happen? Is there going to be any accountability? Is there anyone I'm going to report to? Maybe I get on a Zoom call with people, a video call with people, and I write while they do their project. And so there's like a focus kind of session that we can do together.

And you wrote your blog to help you stay accountable.

Yeah. So that was what I realized is like I needed accountability. And so I created it for myself, wrote a blog. You can start a WhatsApp group. Right now I'm doing a 33-day fitness challenge with my wife and kids, and we have a WhatsApp group where we just post every day, how did you do?

Nice.

Yeah. So that kind of thing. So that's commitment and structure. And people who are creators are often very resistant to commitment and structure, especially if you're more of the artist type and I just want to, like, do it because I feel inspired or I feel like it. Will resist the commitment and structure. But what that's going to do is just have you do it whenever you kind of feel like it, which is not going to be sufficient for actually creating what you want to create. And it's also not going to be sufficient if you're trying to change your life and like the habits that I talked about, like just saying, I just want to not smoke. It's not actually going to happen unless you create some kind of commitment and structure.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And the accountability. I mean, even if you don't have a group, available to you. Like you said, you could even just write a blog and put it out into the internet. I had a guest, Claire Pooley. She's hysterical. She was an alcoholic and she wanted to stop drinking, so she started a blog, kind of like an online diary for herself, called Mommy Was a Secret Drinker. I mean, she thought nobody was reading, and all of a sudden she had millions of views. I interviewed her and she is now a bestselling author. She's on her, I think, 4th or 5th fiction book. They're amazing fiction stories, has nothing to do with drinking. She did have one book about the whole experience, but like you said, her accountability was writing a blog that she thought no one was going to read.

Yeah, so I, I, I think that's a great solution. Um, if you don't want to do that, some people just won't do that. Um, there's online groups, you know, like I said, I found, I found a group that was doing that. There's so many groups for—

how did you find that group? Just random Facebook groups?

Google. It's like the first Yeah, the first one that came up. So, I just go on there and then I read like all of their stories. This is why these really help. You can read their stories about the journey they're going through so you don't feel so alone. You realize, I'm not the only one who faces these kinds of things. You learn what they're doing that works. And so, you start collecting some different kinds of strategies. And that's one place where I got a lot of strategies. And then you—

You read it. Reddit is a great one.

Yeah, there's Facebook groups, there's WhatsApp groups, there's, there's so many different groups online now. It's an abundance of them. But, and then the other one is—

Your podcast, right? You're going to hold people accountable?

Well, they're going to have to hold themselves accountable, but they definitely can commit to accountability with me. Yeah. And then the other thing that really helps with these kinds of groups is that when you are struggling, you don't have to be alone in it. You can actually reach out and say, "Ah, you know, help me." Because what happens if you're alone, you don't have anyone to reach out to, is that you just— it feels hopeless and you feel helpless. And so, it really helps to have some kind of support.

And it's asynchronous, so you could do it in the middle of the night if you wake up and you have the time. But you shouldn't use your tech at night.

You know, if you need to, you gotta use it.

If you need to, yeah. Yeah. I agree.

Yeah.

Well, those are amazing tips and your transformation is amazing and your story is always just so inspiring to me and I'm sure to the millions of readers that you have. What about your kids? Did they benefit from all the work you've done on habits? You know, and obviously they're doing a fitness challenge with you, so.

Yeah. The main thing is that I. And modeling for them like what it's like to not be perfect, but go through change. And so, it's like, you know, this is hard, it's struggle, you know, and, you know, there's something that I'm committed to. And so, they could see me working with it and I talked to them about it. You know, even now, like I still have things that I struggle with and I'll talk to them about the struggles. So, they know that it's not just like, oh, dad just flips a switch and it's fixed, you know. So, this is It's a process that I go through and I'm modeling that for them. And I think that's important. They're all going through their own process. And what they're learning from me is how to trust yourself in that process. And so, they're going through it. It's going to be a struggle for them in their 20s. But I trust them and I help them to trust themselves. We do definitely do challenges together. We've done push-up challenges, pull-up challenges, drawing challenges. All kinds of stuff. And that's a way to get them more involved and actually be learning, discovering for themselves some of the stuff that I discovered. But what I learned that doesn't work is me telling them what to do and how to do it. So, I don't do that anymore. I've definitely tried a bunch of times. Yeah.

I do that with my kids.

How many do you have?

I only have 2, but they might as well be 6.

How many? How old are they?

Oh, my son is 23, and he just graduated school. He just graduated from Harvard in June.

Oh wow.

My daughter is, uh, 19, and she's a sophomore at Princeton. So I'm an empty nester, and now this is why I'm working with all my resistance and really, you know, having that urge to put things out there like you were talking about.

Um, yeah, yeah.

So I have two, and I tell them what to do a lot.

Well, it's working. Princeton and Harvard. I think you're, you're doing okay.

Well, they, they had to do all the work. I mean, I just say stuff.

Yeah, but you told them what to do.

I just say things and then they like, well, they, they tell me things now.

Okay.

The, the greatest thing about parenthood I think is when they grow up and then they can advise you.

I love that. That's cool.

So, but my son, I just got off the phone with him right before you and I was telling him to do something about the dust. Because, you know, the allergies. And he said to me, oh yeah, I did that yesterday. So it's like this running joke. He just says he did it. Whatever I tell him, he's like, oh yeah, I did that yesterday. Yep, I'm done with that.

Done already.

We just laugh.

We're just on the floor laughing. So that's how it goes here. But, um, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you being here. I know you're on a schedule because you're Zen and you have habits to follow, right? Because me, I'm like, I just disregard time a lot of times, and that's one of the things I'm working on. So I will end on time.

Oh, that's awesome.

Yeah, but Leo, this was amazing and I want to keep in touch. And can you please tell everybody where to find you, um, about your Fearless 2.0? It looks like an amazing treat that you have.

Yeah, so ZenHabits.net is the website and that's where you could find everything. Um, if you go to podcast.zenhabits.net, you'll see the podcast. Um, and then I have a program called Fearless Living Academy where I have a lot of courses. I think there's like 30 video courses in there and a community of people. So if you actually want some accountability and support, all the stuff that I talked about, that's actually one place to go is Fearless Living Academy. And then I am putting out a retreat. It's in October, so I don't know when this podcast— when you'll be listening to this, uh, but it's called the Art of Letting Go Retreat, and it's going to be in the mountains of North Carolina, really beautiful space. And we'll be working in person with letting go. And so some of the stuff that we talked about today, we'll be going deeper into it. So I invite you to come join me there. Meditation and in-person kind of practices. We'll be playing together, basically, uh, creating— using play to create the ability to face some of our resistance and fears and let go and create something new for ourselves.

Okay, well, I'll definitely put the links there. Awesome. And I hope to have you back after New Year's because that's when everybody talks about habits all the time.

So, okay, beautiful.

Thank you again, Leo. It was so great to see you in person.

Thanks, Juna Bobby MD.

Thank you so much for listening. Forward this to a friend, a family member, anyone who needs to stress less, and soon enough you'll be surrounded by more Zen people. Your support is literally what makes this possible. Subscribe and head on over to YouTube to my Fall Asleep Easy channel sign up for your updates at mindbodyspace.com and get special tips into your inbox once a month. Until next time, this is Dr. Juna wishing you wellness.