Interview: Creativity, Courage and Curiosity are Superpowers with Tali Orad, Entrepreneur and Engineer

Things were traumatic. I will not get into how horrible things were, but you saw that things are just— this is downhill from here. It's not— that was not helping him at all. And the dad pulls the child and the child literally lost consciousness in his dad's hands. He became blue, lips were blue. There's no pulse, no breathing. That's where I was getting into that state of mind. Okay, I need to do something. So I told the dad, put him on the floor, let me start CPR.

From Mind Body Space, it's the Chill Pill for Moms, a show about stories of resilience, antidotes to stress that really work, and the right dose of science-backed prevention to keep you and your family well. Go to mindbodyspace.com, click on the podcast page to find show notes and ways to get in touch with us so you can ask us questions, even suggest topics for the show, and learn more about our school for stress management and resilience training for moms and kids. This is your host, Dr. Juna Bobby MD, and I'm here today with Tali Orad. I met Tali a few years ago when she was an expert on a panel for teens and screens. We hit it off right away because not only is Tali really charismatic and a beautiful mom of 3, but she's passionate about creating a better future for her kids. In today's episode, we talk about the traumatic events that made her realize her purpose in life, shifting her engineering skills into social change. We'll talk about her meditation practice and how it helps her see clearly through what I like to call mommy madness, something that we all experience at times. She'll talk about shifting education to meet the demands of the future workplace. And we're also going to get insights on how she uses her passion for creativity and learning to bounce back from setbacks big and small. My lovely guest, Tali, is a mom, an entrepreneur, and a world traveler.

I love it.

Yes. We were just talking about just starting our podcast with just a little bit of meditation, and you were telling me that you like to do Zen meditation.

Correct.

Can you tell me just a little bit about what that is, what method-wise, or—

so Zen meditation is more of a Buddha-type meditation run by a Buddhist monk. She's amazing, calm person. You have— it's 2 hours of sitting, but it's broken down. Crossing my eyes right now because I, I don't think I could sit for 2 hours. You don't sit for 4 hours. You have 4 sessions of sitting. I think each of them is 20 minutes. You sit either on a chair or on a cushion, depending on your knees, if you can hold it. Um, you hear the gong, you sit. You don't close your eyes, so you can like gaze at the point in front of you, um, because the goal is to continue being present. And not just disappear or fall asleep, especially when you do it at night and it's so easy to fall asleep. Yeah. And then you have a walking meditation. So it's the same thing, but just walking slowly, going back to sitting, walking again. And then at the end, we kind of like discuss everything that went through. And it can be an emotion that came up through the meditation or your brain couldn't stop thinking about something or you couldn't focus or how amazing it was. So, wow, pretty awesome.

So do you meditate every day?

I wish. No, one of my New Year's resolutions. But as you know, it's almost the end of the year, so I guess I'll need to make that resolution again. But I try to meditate at least once a week. I do yoga, so yoga and Pilates. So part of it is Meditation is not the same. Yes, definitely not the same.

Why do you say that so adamantly? Because I know a lot of people feel like yoga is meditation, and I know some of it is, but why do you so adamantly say it is definitely not the same?

Because when you do yoga and Pilates, you're present with your body.

Uh-huh.

So you focus on the instructor, you focus on your breath, you focus on the pose. So you still focus on something. Yes, you do live the the room as you meditate. But if you meditate at the same time, you'll have a different feeling.

Oh, okay. So you're more into your somatic, your, your somatic senses?

Yes.

So you're in your proprioception mode, you're feeling all of where your body is, where your muscles are, and you're focusing on that, you're saying?

Yes.

As opposed to just watching the mind when you're sitting?

Exactly.

Okay.

Exactly.

And how long have you been meditating? When did that start?

It start— actually, it started when I was 16.

Wow. You're not a Buddhist, right? Or are you?

No, I'm not.

You grew up in—

I grew up in Israel. I was doing martial arts. I'm brown belt in karate. So part of your training is at least an hour of meditation. Not here. Yeah, not in Israel today. That's not—

oh, okay.

So when you were growing up, but had to do Once a week sparring, once a week meditation, and everyday training. As you go up in the ranks, that's part of your training.

And was it, was the teacher Israeli or Japanese or?

Israeli.

He had trained in Japan and he brought it to Israel.

And it's one of the things is the second you do meditation, you are aware of your surrounding. So you get in a fight or in anything, you get into the meditative state, to be aware of what's happening. So everything is very clear all of a sudden.

Wow.

It's amazing to see the difference between the two. Yeah. If you don't meditate and if you do meditate. It was sitting on the floor.

Sitting.

Staring at the candle. If we were to move or fall asleep, we got a slap on our shoulder.

It was just a slap though, no sticker, no beatings. Oh, maybe a little.

It's recorded, so I may not.

I know some of the practices can be a little more harsh than we would ever think of in the West.

Yes, it was very harsh.

So you can just beat somebody up right now if you want to.

No, no, no, no. It's interesting because when you get into the studio, the first lesson you get from your teacher is, I'm going to teach you things, but you're not going to use them. And my first lesson to you, if you're ever in a position when you feel threatened, the skill you're using is get your feet start running, get the hell out of there, because you never know who your opponent is.

Uh-huh.

Uh, you do not want to get into a fight you're not gonna finish strong on. The more you get up in your ranks, you feel like you're more confident, but then actually realize you actually know less. At least in Seido, the concept is peaceful versus combat.

Mm-hmm.

You can train with weapons, you can train with all those things. So I am trained and I know how to use them, but I know not to. And if I get into a conflict, I will try to avoid that and use all my conflict resolution skills versus actually getting into a fight. I will be able to protect you, but only if I need to.

Yeah, I mean, I, I think it is across the board in all martial arts. You're not training to go out and beat people up. I was just joking, but I know I just loved it. Uh-huh. And also, it's a meditative state, right? It's sharpening your mind, basically.

I can tell you, as a kid, I was doing all dancing types. I was You look like a dancer.

I do, right? Were you ballet?

I did ballet. I did modern. I did tap. I did jazz. Wow. I really appreciate my parents for allowing me to experience everything. And then by coincidence, I don't even know how I ended up trying martial arts and I fell in love. I stayed dancing because it helps, but most of my time—

Martial arts is kind of like a dance sometimes. I've seen that.

It is.

That's what— yeah, that's what attracted me to kung fu. I saw it on a movie. I was like, that looks so cool. Of all things, it was a Danish movie about a Turkish immigrant girl, and I had to like bootleg it because it wasn't even available in the States. I can't remember— The Fighter. It's called The Fighter. It's amazing.

I'll check it out. When I was 16, I started martial arts. I stayed with that until I was drafted to the army. Wow. And then I took a pause for 2 and a half years, and I went back. But then when I had kids, Thank God kids were the martial arts. Now they're doing martial arts and I'm just walking from the sideline correcting them. Oh my God, you should hold this like that. You should make sure your posture is— Mom, stop it.

Anyway, how did you find yourself back? Meditation. How did you find that again, or was it always with you?

It wasn't always with me, but we were talking about putting yourself out there, be open. And universe has strange ways to push you towards a certain direction.

Or in my translation, like focusing your attention on things, you will be open to it.

Exactly. Yes. Thank you. Yes.

And I do believe in the universe out there, but I do like to use these scientific— like it makes sense for my brain.

Yeah.

So basically when we're focusing our attention on something, we're open to something, then we notice it and it comes into our lives like more.

Exactly. Yes. I wasn't looking for meditation. I was actually looking for places for dancing. Oh, and then discovered there is ecstatic dancing. Even here in New York you can do it. And ecstatic dancing in is a way—

what is it called?

Ecstatic dance.

Oh, I don't know about that.

Yes, it's an hour and a half of dancing.

You do everything in like many hours.

Late at night. Um, how late? I think they start 7:30. Okay. Late if you wake up at 6:30 in the morning and have kids. So dancing is a sort of meditation. And you realize that after you were dancing and not choreographed dancing or not dancing with a partner, just dancing by yourself, just letting yourself be.

Interesting.

It's a sort of meditation. And then slowly meeting people that were pulling me to tell you, you have to try this.

Uh-huh.

I went back to meditation.

And now it's in your life as a parent. It helped you or? It depending on the day.

But it allows me to think less emotional on a situation. It's very interesting to see the different dynamics. For my elementary school girl, she comes home, I hear everything that is happening and I love it. All the feelings, what her friends were saying, how she did. And I get my hugs, less and less, but I still get them. My middle schooler and my high schooler, it's really depending on the day. People told me, big kids, big problem, little kids, little problem.

Uh-huh.

People told me that you will see an angel one day and a monster the other. I was like, yeah, yeah, no, my kids are still angels. No, it's true. I mean, I love my kids dearly, I do. Those emotions take over and they don't really know how to deal with them. Hormones, things that happen at school, something happened with a friend, with a teacher. It's a safe space at home, so they take it out on me. And sometimes you're like, okay, you can't do that. You can't just come home and scream at me.

No.

But on the other hand, okay, so they feel comfortable enough to come share it. Or I prefer sharing than I know something is happening because they behave a little different or they're very quiet.

Uh-huh.

And then, you know, it's actually serious. I can tell you the mistake I did was grilling them. And that's not the way to go. Don't ask them too many questions. Let them be. If they share, don't comment. I love commenting and I have a lot of advice and I know when I can really help them, but sometimes they just want their mom to be there, give them a hug, just not say anything. Going back to meditation, that's something that I've learned to, okay, stop it. Focus on my breathing. Calm down. I know I'm their mom and I know I'm used to saving them and I want to protect them from this world, and I want them to be happy all the time, but sometimes I just need to let them be. I need to let them have— do their mistakes and, and have their breakdowns and learn how to deal with that and even experience those emotions. Exactly right. It's really hard when it's your baby and you want to protect them.

I've done all those things— grilling, protecting, fighting for them. Yes.

Yeah.

And ultimately you want them to figure it out themselves, and so just kind of guiding them and being a safety net, obviously, so their frontal lobes can develop.

Exactly.

Exactly.

So in meditation, going back to that, I even had one mom, she tells her kids that she's putting herself in timeout. She has younger kids. Okay. I like that concept because she says, I sometimes feel very overwhelmed and I don't really know what to do. So I can snap at them. I can open the door and escape, which I shouldn't. So she says, I open the door to my room.

Uh-huh.

I have a book there. I go inside. I either write something in my notebook or sit there and read 5 chapters that take her a few minutes, and she comes back and she's calm, and she tells her kids, listen, I felt my feelings overwhelming. I didn't want to take it out on you, so I went and calmed down and went back.

I love it. I'm going into timeout.

It shows that we are people, we're humans. We are— we also have those emotions, and they know it too.

Yes, it's really the best way to get buy-in too. I mean, that's how I got my kids on board, because I needed it for me. I would tell them, look, I'm taking deep breaths now, just let me calm down.

My 5th grader does meditation at school, which is amazing.

Oh, that's wonderful to hear.

It's not in all the classes, it's really depending on the teacher. And I wish more teachers in the current education system will bring meditation in.

I think it's happening, but slowly and sporadically.

Yes. So she taught them, take your fingers, open your hand, and follow with the finger on all— kind of like mark your hand and do it 5 times, and then start incorporating the breath. And she says, Mom, it's really helped me. I'm not as nervous going to a test. She— they did it before the state testing. It was great.

Do you recognize that helps her more than like your older kids who didn't have that in school?

Yes, especially with high schoolers where all the stress is coming in. My son is in 11th grade, so a lot of stress. Oh yeah, for you too. Yes, I'm still in denial.

For anybody who thinks meditation is a little wacky, it's really just about watching your thoughts and literally being able choose what you want to do and what you don't want to do.

Be in the present, not thinking of what happened yesterday, what's going to happen tomorrow. When you start a conversation with them, is pay attention to them, not the dishes, not your phone, not the dog that is barking, not anything else. Just pay attention to them. Let them feel that you are present. And meditation really help us get there.

So it's like really helping you shift your focus.

Yes, exactly.

So I know your background was engineering.

You finish high school, you go to the army, and then you go to university. I did 5 years of engineering degree, hardware software engineering degree.

So in engineering school, did you feel like that they nurtured that kind of creativity and curiosity that, that I know you're so passionate about right now?

So I was very lucky. I mean, to start, I ended up in engineering because of my dad. He was an engineer himself. He was a professor in one of the universities in Israel, and he was the one pushing me towards because that male dominant field.

Really?

Yes.

And why were you the only girl?

I was the only girl in class in high school.

Do you have brothers and sisters?

I do have two brothers.

So your dad treated you all the same, kind of, your brothers?

Yeah.

He was especially pushing you towards something that was male?

He was especially pushing all of us.

I mean, in general, all the dance lessons in town. Plus, was that your mom?

My, my mom was the dancing and the art.

Okay.

My dad was like, okay, this We identified, I guess, that's where this world is heading towards. So my, my brother studied physics, my other brother studied also engineering. So yes, we were pushed to that direction. And I must say I'm very grateful because it opened a lot of doors for me. I was lucky enough to be mentored by two amazing professors, one on that data mining and the other one was in hardware engineering. Both identified the potential, so they kept on giving me challenges. So I'm not just tied to the material.

Mm-hmm.

And I think that's what kept it interesting.

So you had these mentors making you think outside the box. Exactly. By the way, I just saw a cartoon that said, look for the H for happiness in engineering. Engineer, there's no H, right? So look, and it's supposed to be one of the hardest things you know, you can study. And as one of the only females there, where did you find the camaraderie? Did you have it with your classmates or—

It's interesting, I guess, because I did engineering type high school, kind of like had to be pushed to deal with men. I had more male friends than female. There were no drama, there was no gossiping.

Oh, is that the key to no drama and gossiping? Just get male friends and study engineering. That might skip all the drama.

I don't know. I mean, yes, I still had boyfriend dramas.

Okay.

I had two best friends that were girls, and my other friends were boys. We had like this gang. What kind of gang? Oh, I was living in, in an apartment building, so I was the head of the gang.

You were the head of the gang? I love it. You were the head of the gang of all boys?

Yes. We were doing all the things I wish kids these days will do.

Okay, so you built a treehouse?

We just found a tree and we figured it out. Okay, sit on it, put some pillows. Uh-huh. Nested well, so we can just be there. It was more of our hiding place, or we were at the parking lot riding our bikes or just playing with sticks and rocks. I mean, everything that I would expect kids to be doing these ages, they're not running around outside. Okay, this is what we have to do. We have a few hours before parents are coming home. Let's just do something. And you find something to do.

So tell me, as the leader of this gang, like, that's where we're heading. One thing I just want to know, like, what was your job as the leader?

It was more of coming up things to do and then making sure everybody's doing something. So it's all-inclusive. There's no one is not doing it. We had a new kid joining us and of course I'm like, okay, so you're joining us, we'll meet you at 4 downstairs at the parking lot because why not?

So you're the organizer, you're the inclusive, um, monitor, and you're the creator of activities.

In a way, yes.

Okay, awesome. So did this carry over into your engineering life where— because I know you've started up multiple companies.

Yes.

You're an entrepreneur at heart.

Yes.

Which means you have this huge amount of creativity because now I know like at MIT Startup, there's a lot of entrepreneurship going on, science-related schools. But I don't know if it was like that back then. I know Israel is very high up in the ranks of technology and innovation.

So in my school, some of the classes were project-based classes. So I was given guidelines and then had to do my own thing based on those guidelines. I also started working in a startup, and it's funny, I started working actually in the inventory area, putting stuff on the shelf and cleaning and serving coffee and anything that they needed.

So what was it about the startup that made you want to be in it so badly that you would fetch coffee for people and like do whatever it took?

So the startup had the opportunity for developing ASICs, which is a small computer chip that is being placed in different electronic devices. And it was a new field back then. So I figured I might as well give it a try. My professors knew I'm working at that startup and they were helping me with different assignments or different things that are new in the space. They gained enough confidence in me to give me small assignments. Some of the coding languages I was working with were new even to the startup I was working in. So it gave me the edge and then slowly managed to build my reputation and get a better role.

And then you became the boss. No.

And then I quit. Oh, you quit.

Okay. So you were in school though when you were at the startup?

Yes.

And how old were you?

22.

You got your exposure to what a startup feels like, looks like, and you were able to actually integrate what you were learning in school along with what you were doing at the job, it sounds like, right?

Exactly.

So that makes me think about what you're interested in now. Everybody's very worried about what's happening in education because it was a system— maybe you can explain it better— that it was developed for a certain type of society, right?

Yes.

Maybe outdated.

So the education system goes back hundreds of years to the British Empire, and it was preparing people to work in a factory. So if you think about it, to work in a factory, you need to follow certain instructions and you need to repeatedly do them again and again and again and again until the day ends and then do it again.

And not ask questions too much.

No, don't ask questions. Stay on the same pace. So remember and do all those things. Sit in a chair. Do not move. That was what job requirements were. If you think of working in a factory. Yes, some of them will become managers. But that will be the exception of the rule. Work for the future is completely changing. We don't have factories.

Well, we have robots that are now doing repetitive work.

Robots are replacing us in most of those work. Even Uber drivers are soon going to be out of business. Truck drivers will be out of business because of mobility.

So you think that it's all going to go into artificial intelligence drivers?

Yes.

How long do you think that's going to be? You have the pulse on the tech industry, right? Maybe.

I would say 10 years.

Even less.

Oh, so really in our time, if you think of even me going to a startup, when you go to a startup, you do different things. You need to think outside the box. You need to be creative.

Yeah.

You need to understand the market. You need to study. You need to change different perspective. This is not something I learned at school. I believe this is something we need to learn at school. Creativity is there when we are born.

For everyone.

Yes, for everyone. We're all creative. We're all curious. We are all Amazing.

That's the human brain, right? I mean, that's why we started the fire.

Exactly.

We made the wheel because we were curious. Hey, how can we make this easier? How can we change? How can we change our environment to make it better for us?

Exactly.

Yes.

And then you go to a school and as the year progresses, every time a child raises their hands to ask something that is not 100% related but just a little related, it's out of the curriculum. And then they take their hand down. The next time they try to ask something again, something about, let's try different things, let's— how about this? How about that? And the teacher is like, this is not in our curriculum. Take their hands down. I don't think the problem is the teacher. Right, right. I think the problem is the system.

Mm-hmm. And a system that was developed a long time ago for something else.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And we need to think of our kids that don't always have to memorize things because there's Google at any given moment.

Yeah, they don't have to. Yeah, they can look it up all the time. It's like we have a brain.

Exactly. So instead of making them memorize different facts, teaching them how to deal with all that information, how to find the relevant information, how to make connections to that information, how to imply that information to your day to day. How to make the emotional connection to yourself, how to connect it to other things in the world.

How to pick out false information.

Exactly. So all those things, this is something you can teach. Uh-huh. And you don't need to tell a child. I spoke with a mom that told me she was complaining about the science teacher that gave her son like 5 points less in in his test. The reason being because he didn't memorize a term. Nobody needs to memorize all the terms anymore. You can have a cheat sheet, which is not a cheat sheet.

Right. It's all in their, like, calculators and stuff anyway.

Exactly.

Yeah. I mean, the only time I guess they should be sticklers are like in math or formulations where they— I know they take— my son used to freak out because, oh, he took a point off because I didn't put the decimal point in. He knows that I meant that. But I was like, wait, But if you're plugging that into like a bridge you're building, you need that.

Yes.

You need to know that that decimal point has to be there.

Yes.

Otherwise that bridge could fall down.

There was— I don't remember what it was exactly, but something that NASA did that they had an issue with calculation because all their calculation was in the metric system. And one person forgot to do the conversion and they missed something by— I'll look it up and I'll send it to you.

I looked this up. It was in 1999 and NASA lost its $125 million Mars Climate Orbiter because an engineer failed to convert from English to metric.

Paying attention to details is important.

In certain areas.

Yes. And giving kids the tools is important. But our job is to give them the tools and not just dump all the information in their head. Yes. Let them think. Let them open their, their minds. As we talked about allowing meditation at school, allow a class that is makerspace where they just get different things and they try to solve it. I came back from summit. Sir Ken Robinson was talking.

Yes, Sir Ken Robinson. He also has that TED Talk.

So he was talking about the Book Buddy program where they brought kindergarten and pre-K to a nursing home. Then one day, one of the elders were asking, "What are you guys doing there?" And the teacher said, "We are teaching these kids to read." So he asked if he can sit there and if he can start engaging with the kids. And that evolved into a program where the kids read to the elders, elders just listen, and then sometimes they share stories. It got the kids to, besides progress in their reading and have better scores when they went went to elementary school. They also got them to see the world in a different way, to learn about different cultures, different communities, how to be in a community, get the wisdom of the elderly that we sometimes forget.

So they got some social-emotional learning as well, being part of a community.

Yes, it's an outside-of-the-box solution. It's not following the curriculum of the teacher reading a story and then The kids each read one sentence. Now you have a nursing home with 20, 30, 40, 50 elderly people. So you have enough people to sit one-on-one with the kids, have a discussion. One of the things Ken Robinson was mentioning was a 4-year-old was asking the 88-year-old, "So how big was your iPad?" And the 88-year-old, "I had a harmonica. I didn't have an iPad." And all of a sudden, "Oh, so what is it?" 'Can I try play it? Can you show me?' Oh, the harmonica. Yes. So again, it's opening up different things.

Yes, it's more fluid.

Exactly.

Yeah. You seem like you want to change things. When you see something wrong, you want to change it.

Yes, right? I do. Yeah.

Because maybe go back to that story you told me about your first company where you went from engineering to starting up a company giving CPR?

Yes.

Can you tell us about that?

I was an engineer. I moved to the States a year before. I was working as a software engineer in one of the companies in Manhattan, and I was very happy with what I was doing. And we were invited to a friend's house in New Jersey. We were having dinner. My son was 1 at the time. Their child was 1 as well. They were sitting on their high chair. We were like chatting like we're doing right now. It It was a February snowy day. All of a sudden, their child started choking. And—

Wow.

You— it's traumatizing. It's been 15 years. I still go back to that moment and I feel horrible and emotional.

Mm-hmm.

But— so he was choking, and you have 4 Israelis, army veterans, in the room. All of us are CPR trained, but when it's your child, you sometimes panic. And it wasn't my child. So I just asked if I can do the Heimlich maneuver on the child. They said yes. So I pulled the child out.

Was he or she turning blue at that point?

Not yet. They were just—

How did you know?

You see that they can just— can't— they cannot even cough. Uh-huh.

You saw the distress.

Son. Yes. Usually when a person is choking, and they can also not talk, yes, you see something is wrong. So I did the Heimlich maneuver. It's a little different with a baby versus an adult. Part of it came out. We thought, that's it.

Uh-huh.

And I will say here that that was when I should have called 911.

Uh-huh.

But we didn't because we didn't think. Things were traumatic. I will not get into how horrible things were, but You saw that things are just— this is downhill from here. It's not— that was not helping him at all. And the dad pulls the child, and the child literally lost— lose consciousness in his dad's hands. He became blue, lips were blue. There's no pulse, no breathing. That's where I was getting into that state of mind. Okay, I need to do something. So I told the dad, put him on the floor, let me start CPR. I forgot to tilt the head. So when I did the first breath, it got stuck. So I remembered, I tilt the head. By the time paramedic came, he was back. So what I was doing, I was pushing what was blocking at the top of— how is it called? The top of it.

Yeah.

Push it to one side. So one lung was functioning.

Oh, okay. So it went into one of the lungs.

Yes.

The branches of the trachea.

Yes. And the other one was still blocked. Okay. So paramedic came. I was still holding him because when you have a child that is choking and you don't know where the blockage is, you don't want to move them because you want to continue the flow.

You don't want to dislodge it.

Exactly. They put the oxygen. By the time he got into the hospital and he was treated, it was dissolved. It got dissolved. In his lungs. But we were lucky because if I weren't to give him CPR, that child would be dead.

Uh-huh.

But the reason I'm telling that story is because that was for me the turning point. That was for me the— this is bigger than me. My role in this planet is bigger than just code. I need to do something.

You mean coding computers?

Yes. Yeah. Do something for are next for the next generation.

And by the way, he's fine now, right?

He's completely fine.

How old is he?

He is 15.

Awesome.

16. Okay. At the end of the day is you need to take action.

Mm-hmm.

Is don't panic.

Mm-hmm.

Because their life depends on you. I was lucky he's not dead. It can end up well, it can end up wrong.

And yeah, people are very scared to like step in and start doing something.

The Good Samaritan law protects us.

Yes.

So as long as you go with the good intention and you're the most qualified person in this scene, yes, you're good. And I also ask for permission from those parents. Yes, you did.

You had the wherewithal to actually say, may I go ahead and do this? You got consent.

Yes. But even if I didn't, yeah, I wouldn't regret that because those parents took action, were not are not in a state of doing anything to that child at that moment. And I don't blame them because it is scary. But realizing that a lot of parents just afraid and thinking sometimes you procrastinate thinking, well, okay, it's not going to happen. So I started a nonprofit that promotes CPR education for parents and caregivers. We connected in every city and every state in the United States. Whoever want to take CPR class to organization that give CPR class. The Red Cross, the American Heart Association, local EMTs. We even brought to my town EMTs to teach 5th graders the choking prevention classes. Wow. Because a 9-year-old can save a life, and that's just teaching them the Heimlich maneuver.

Mm-hmm.

Have them aware of don't talk and eat.

Yes, I was just going to say that. Thank you for saying that, because You know, I am Dr. Prevention, right? That's my whole thing. And I used to work in the ER, you know, when I was training as a resident. And we would often see guys come in, young men eating steak really fast, and there'd be a big piece of meat stuck in their esophagus or wherever. And I was always telling my children, chew, chew, chew, chew, chew, chew. Yes.

And don't talk when you do it.

Yes. Don't run with the water.

So thank you.

Thank you for saying that.

And before we switch topics, I just want to say one thing. Yes, of course. We are all adults, and sometimes we sit and have dinners with our friends. Sometimes we have dinners with relatives. Sometimes we have dinner with our kids. And that's where we eat and talk. When somebody is choking, they feel uncomfortable.

Yeah.

And they want to excuse themselves, hoping they will solve it in the bathroom.

They're embarrassed.

They're embarrassed. My tip: when you see somebody like that get up, ask them to say something. Where are you going? What happened? Tell me a joke. Something. Because if they cannot answer, that means that they're blocked and they cannot breathe.

That's a great tip.

And if that happens, follow them to the bathroom. I've heard too many horrible stories about friends ending up dead in the bathroom because they were trying to excuse themselves.

Wow.

And that's just wrong. So be this in one friend. I would be one of those people.

I'd be embarrassed and I would be like, wait, I'll just go to the bathroom.

No, no, no, no, no. There is the international sign. Nobody does it.

So you did this amazing thing being traumatized. You decided to go and raise social awareness. So that's the kind of person you are, which is why I'm so amazed by everything you do. And the next thing you did was raise awareness about tech, right? Screen Time.

Yeah.

So that was your next company and you were very concerned about where and how many, how many hours your kids were spending on screen. Not to mention us, the moms.

Yes. Yes.

I am totally addicted.

We all are. So that was—

We're going to have to have another episode in January for the New Year's to like cut down my screen time.

Yes. Okay. I'm the girl for you.

Okay, cool. So tell me about that.

So 6 years ago, my kids were more of watching TV all the time, play on the iPad all the time, on the computer. And I was like, okay, no, no, no. You can't be consumed by those things. And that was before everybody was talking about it. I was looking for some sort of solution. I said, there must be something that I can control my kids.

And it's completely addictive.

Yes.

I was on a panel and this father said that his 5-year-old was banging their heads against the wall because he took the iPad away. But he went to his pediatrician and they said, "Just take it away from him." Yeah. And he was like, "Oh, I didn't realize I could do that." And I know it sounds funny, but like people just feel like, "Oh, you know, he's banging his head against the wall. I'm gonna give him the iPad back." Yeah. But his doctor, thank goodness, said, "Just take it away." Yes. And he said after 2 to 3 days, the symptoms went down. So it's a true addiction.

Yes.

Right.

And I'm glad that you say that because it is now defined as an addiction by different organizations.

Yes. There is an addiction code in the DSM-5 now.

Yes.

Which is a psychiatric code.

Finally. I mean, and there are recovery centers. Yes. Yes. And basically those recovery centers are locations with no electronics.

Uh-huh.

And the week, people just go play board games, people do art stuff, people walk in the forest. Um, I mean, walking in nature is great for your health, mental and physical health.

Totally.

Uh, talking to other people. Yeah. Um, yes. So going back to that, I was just—

there was no nothing, and there was nothing available at that time when you started your company.

Nothing available at the time, and I said, well, I guess I have to solve it. So I got the team together. We had a multiplatform solution, including a hardware device that managed your TV and your computer and your phones and your everything and enables you to set time limit and also see what the kids are doing on different platforms. Eventually, the company didn't succeed. Everybody copied what we were doing, which is great. We were also too early to the market.

So a lot of that's timing.

Yes. Yes. So if we'll ever talk entrepreneurship, timing is key.

Oh, I'd love to do a whole episode on that. Yes.

Yes. And just to give you perspective, Steve Jobs was quoting when somebody asked him, do you have iPads like chocolates in your house everywhere? And he said, no, my— actually, my kids are not allowed phones, iPads, and computers in the house at all. Right. And that came out 2 years after we started.

After?

Yes.

So you were very early to the market. Mm-hmm.

Yes.

And, but you did raise a lot, raise a lot of awareness. I know you did a lot of talks and yes, you're an expert in the field.

We raised $2 million.

Wow.

On just the idea.

And so did you pitch, um, venture capitalists? Yes. To raise the $2 million? Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Amazing. Yes. That in itself is amazing that you went through those rounds. I mean, I went to an angel investor meeting and they said like 90% of startups fail. And within that, even tinier piece goes to women entrepreneurs.

Yes. You need to understand the market. You need to understand the field. You need to be right to the market. Don't rush it on one hand. On the other hand, don't wait too long.

What's the biggest lesson? Like, if you could go back, what would you have done?

Uh, if I could go back, I would wait with our launch. I would—

oh, you would have waited for the launch?

Yes. What would you have waited for? Um, for somebody big like Steve Jobs to start talking about it versus me defining it, me talking about it, me being interviewed, me doing all those marketing. Most of our budget went on marketing. I mean, you do have a hardware product, so it's a lot money goes to that development. We had two patents. So it's like big things. But yes, understanding timing for the market. I remember going to investors and telling them, so you have your kids wake up and want to open the TV and not talk to you, or after playing the iPad, just being in a crappy mood. So eventually I had those that related to that and then said, oh, you're right. And then I backed— there were a few researchers back then. We did our own survey as well, and I was able to back it with data to show what it means, what are the implications, and then raise the money and solve it.

How did you bounce back from that? So when you had to fold, you knew like something— was it financial that told you you had to fold, or was it just you couldn't keep doing it anymore? So how did you bounce back from that?

So I ended up returning some of the funds to my investors. I didn't use all my funds. I actually had time for another year.

Wow. I think that's very rare that somebody does. I don't know if I've ever heard of that actually.

Yes, it's rare.

Most of the time you hear them like burning through everything and then it's like done. But that's amazing that you were able to return some of the funds.

Yes. So I learned that There are many players now in the market, and I identified that Apple and Google are bringing most of what we were doing. It was so funny, even the colors and the fonts were the same to some of the things we were doing.

Uh-huh.

Your report on iPhone for your consumption. Yeah, I have that now.

I have that now. Yeah. And I remember your product. Yes.

That was on our product. That was one of the features.

Yes.

I remember those bars.

Yep. Yeah. You had a beautiful thing going.

Yes.

Yeah.

So it's on the, Identifying that, it's great. I'm not gonna compete with them. I can try to have them buy us, but they already did most of the things, so there's no, um, reason for that. Um, return the funds and said, okay, so seems like I raised awareness on screen addiction. What's next?

I love that. So, so you had another year of funds left, but you chose— you knew when to stop.

Yes.

That's, that's an amazing skill. Where do you get that skill from? Like, was it because—

you're asking so many—

I know, but it's so fascinating because, I mean, to know when to stop and to let go of something you've been working so hard for is almost as hard as, you know, pushing through. So maybe harder even, just telling everybody, look, it's done, it's time to stop.

Um, So I must say, this is where my mentors and my husband came in and said, okay, seems like you're going to run into a wall. You have two options: break it or just move on.

Like, go get another round of funding.

Yes.

Get bigger and bigger.

Yes.

And is your husband in your team or is he—

No.

What does he do?

My husband is CEO in a tech company.

So, but he would give you advice?

Yes, he would. I would, a lot of those things, just bounce concepts with him because as an entrepreneur, unless I, my two previous startups, whether it's the CPR and whether it's the Screen Addiction, I was the sole founder CEO and it's lonely.

Yeah.

At the top, it's really lonely and you need to find people that you trust to talk about it. Slowly learned to trust my team as well and talk about it. But sometimes you feel like, I, I'm gonna— I can't tell them that we are running into a wall. I need to find a solution before. Uh, eventually I did. We did talk about it because that's— there's no I in a team.

What was the hardest part about that?

Um, so the hardest thing is to telling telling your team that you're letting them down and saying, it's— that's it, we're not doing it. And I'm sorry for, for failing you as your leader, that it's not going to happen again. And then we reached out to all our customers, and I got emails afterwards from customers and from competitors. They told me, Italia, you did an amazing job. And a lot of things were done because what you were paving. And some customer told me he's a priest actually in France, and he told me it helps his addictive people in his congregation, not necessarily on screen, because some of the tools we gave him were helpful for different fields. And he said, if that's an issue of money, we'll fundraise for you. And I said, I totally appreciate that. But that's not the case. And feeling that you let down all those people that rely on you, that was the hardest thing. Not giving the money back, not thinking of, okay, my company actually failed, now I need to pick up the pieces and move on. It's more of, I disappointed a lot of people that kind of like were relying on me, relying on the product because it was helpful for them. So That's the hardest thing.

And how did you bounce back from that?

So it took a while. I didn't wake up the morning after, "Oh, I'm ready." There are the 7 stages of grief in the company as well. And you feel that you're a failure and you feel like, "Oh my God, so I need to go back and be just a housewife because I'm not good enough." Although, of course, You're not just a housewife, you're a mom, and like, that's one of the most important jobs in the world.

But I understand, go on.

Now mom is just nothing, but it's, it's a lesson they need to learn as well, that you sometimes succeed and you sometimes fail, and it's use the support of your community and your friends, and also say, okay, you know what, yes, I failed, yes, it's horrible, Yes, I wish to be one of the leading companies in that space. But there's other things I'm supposed to be doing and I did enough here. And what are the lessons I've learned from that process and how I can implement them in the next thing? And I took 6 months off to just understanding what's the next thing that I'm supposed to be doing, understanding what went wrong, learned my lesson. I kind of like have a notebook where I write my feelings, my thoughts, my life lessons, or the tips I got from others. And wow, but moved on.

And you did have that sort of grief?

Yes, yes, it was my baby. Yeah, it was my baby. To get to see, oh, they are copying, this is exactly what I'm doing, instead of saying, that's great. People are doing it. People are making changes. This is why I went to do it in the first place, to make the change, to have people— give them the tools to balance technology in their lives. So even if it's not using my tool, at least I raised enough awareness that the big players in the market are doing it right now. And we are having a conversation on how to balance it, whether it's a global conversation, whether it's It's personal. People are reaching out. I do go and talk about it. I write about it on my— on Medium as well. Try to give more general ideas and more practical tips on how you can take it to your day-to-day to, as you said, take out that iPad for a 5-year-old.

Yeah. Just take it away. Yes. You're allowed to as a parent. Take it away.

Not for 16, but yes, for 5.

Maybe. Yeah, I love what you said about feeling like I failed and understanding that and like feeling like maybe I'm a loser for now, but, but being able to bounce back from that and then understanding that you've done so much, right? You did so much in that process. Mhm. So you came to the acceptance part. You said 7 stages of grief, right? Yes. So, uh, you had the acceptance and then you're now bouncing back and you started another company and you were talking to me about your main mission of creativity and curiosity. So I just want to go back to your amazing, resourceful entrepreneurship. You've done so many different things to start up social change. I know that right now you're working on an app called Wibble.

Correct.

W-I-B-B-L-E.

Correct. Wibble started as an idea to decentralize education. To give the tools for children, actually to anybody, to build those skill sets that are needed for the future of work.

I looked at it and it looks amazing. I love the idea of it, and I know you have a backstory to it too. It's not just a vlogging tool. Right.

So going back to education, and I sat with a lot of experts on this future of work and understanding what What needs to be done? What are the skill sets that are relevant? I went literally all over the world to speak with amazing people about it because I wanted to know more, more, like going back to curiosity. I was curious also understanding that the kids that are currently in high school will be the one lacking those skills because middle school, high school, middle school, elementary school, um, eventually it will catch up. The education The system will catch up. And I said, okay, again, my kids.

So you think the kids in high school now are the ones who are going to, who are kind of missing out on this transitional.

Yes.

You know, need this new skills of, you know, thinking outside of the box and being more creative and curious rather than just the Socratic learning method.

Yes. And then I said, okay, great, that's all amazing. But if I take my kids going back, it's the education system. And I started to understand what the education system is today. I've met a lot of great experts in the field. I went to Bali and met John Hardy and learned about what the Green School is doing. I've met with Sugata Mitra and his project on the hole in the wall and that type of education system and different others. And I said, okay, great. Now my kids live here in New York. There is no way I'm going to send them to Bali. I wish I could. I can't build a school right away and have it available tomorrow. So what can I do? And go back to my technical background and my understanding in screen addiction. I said, how about I'll create a tool that instead of getting them addicted to all the games and social media and all those other things. I will find a tool that will be joyful enough for them to use that will build a skill set that they need for the future of work. And that's where Weebill comes in. So Weebill is a social media platform that enables project-based learning for everybody.

Not just kids.

Not just kids. Now we are, we started doing it. We did a super exciting project beta testing it in Sri Lanka in one of the schools. And that was amazing to see how the kids—

You really get around. You're a global citizen.

Uh-huh. See how the kids interact with it. And we saw how the kids really loved it. Uh-huh. The product that you see out there, which is not out there yet, Actually took it one step, even one step back, because we realized to create that social media platform for vlogging, you need a vlogging tool that is available for everybody. We said, okay, how about we'll start with creating that vlogging tool so you can easily vlog about anything. I can vlog about how I do arts and crafts with my kids. I can vlog about things I do with my dog. Started to learn how to play the guitar, which is really tough at this age. But I use a lot of YouTube to learn how to do that. Again, it's people teaching how to do things.

And so why not YouTube though? How is it different from YouTube? Like, because of the processing?

That is a great, great, great question. If I go to YouTube, I look for something I know what to look for. I know to look for playing the guitar. I know to look how to code. I know how to look for something.

You have a mission. When you go on YouTube.

Exactly.

Okay.

When you go on, on the platform, you will see everything, and all of a sudden they will be, oh cool, so maybe I can launch a rocket, do the experiment. Okay. Oh, maybe I'll do this, maybe— because you see it, so all of a sudden it's, it's interesting.

And it's kind of like going to a fair and looking at all the— but on your phone.

Exactly, on your phone.

But so you— I'm, I'm assuming that you We only have positive things there. So you're not gonna teach people how to do negative things.

No, it's all positive and it's all curated by the community.

So curated, that's where YouTube is not, right? Yes. So YouTube, I mean, yeah, you can find people that you trust on it and stuff, I guess. You can have playlists, you know, like you're saying that your platform is really all about positivity. Yes. So it's not gonna teach you how to break into cars or anything like that.

Like on YouTube, you can find some funny things. And if anybody does it, exactly, but if anybody does it, can report it and take it down.

Okay, so you're all gonna be— it's not gonna be like free-for-all, like everybody could post anything they feel like?

They can, but it will be very—

it has to be positive—

removed from the platform.

So, okay, awesome. Well, you know what, as a mom, I'm totally for that, and as a physician, because I can't— I really love that curation part.

It's curated by the community. And who's going to be the community? Everybody.

Whoever's on there?

Yes. Yes, there are going to be rules. But for example, I don't know, you mentioned breaking into the car.

Yeah. Right?

Somebody put a video like that, you will go see it, you'll report it. The second you report it, this video comes down. It goes through our team, we vet it. If it's fine, it goes back in. If it's not, it's taken down. The user gets a warning. 3 strikes, you're out.

So do you think this is going to be more like an app I mean, like a subscription thing, or is it something you buy?

So it will be a subscription, but you get limited features for free. And some of the features, for example, most of it is editing.

I see.

So remember, you want to add the sticker, you want to do a different filter, you want to cut it, you want to add music, you want to do the overlay. There's like jump cuts, which is the coolest thing. If you see a person running and the background keeps on changing.

Uh-huh.

So that's something that you see in video logs, which is super cool, but it takes hours to do it. Oh, super easy to do on the platform.

So that's why you guys are gonna have like these like cool filter kind of things.

Exactly, exactly. And that's what you pay for.

Okay, so when can we expect this to happen? And now you have a partner, right?

I do have a partner. Okay, partner is He's from Sri Lanka. Wow. That's how we asked why you were there.

And is he an engineer as well?

No, he is a wise kid. He was homeschooled when he was 13.

Wow.

He was a professional tennis player. He taught himself how to play the guitar in a different way, which is pretty awesome. You need to check his YouTube channel. Amazing, amazing creative kid. And he does video gaming and 3D animation. So that's— and he's also vlogging. Okay. So he's coming from that field. I'm coming from the field of screen addiction and what gets kids addicted and why. Hopefully we'll get the kids addicted to the right content in addition to doing stuff outside of technology. So For example, you saw a video on how to launch a rocket, go launch a rocket by yourself.

Go outside.

Do it, record it, teach others. Now, once you record your own video, it's added to your portfolio.

Uh-huh.

Going back to the future of work, I did, I don't know, I played the guitar, I launched a rocket, I did 3D animation videos, I did I don't know, something else. It's all built on my portfolio. My future boss will see it and know, wow, so she can learn different things. She is creative. She has a skill set. I see a work that she's actually doing versus sending the CV. It's like, okay, so wait, what did you actually do?

Right? A one-page CV because they don't want anything longer than that. And are you going to pitch investors again? What do you think you're going to do with with this company?

Eventually, yes. Currently, no. So we are developing the code ourselves and then launch it, have people try it, get traction, get help, get to see how people actually interact with that, improve it, see if there is a need for us to go in the funding round. If not, continue being— it's very easy. You just need to have an idea and you can learn to do it yourself. There's online classes you can take and app development. There's a lot of those things. I mean, I still believe in the engineering program. I think it adds much, much more. I had to learn physics. Yeah, of course. Math. I had to do all those other things. And also architecture. You write a code, it's not It's not just a story.

Yeah.

Yes, it tells a story, but it's not just a story. It needs to be written well so you can scale it. So when you reach, I don't know, 50,000 people, the app doesn't crash.

Yeah.

All those little things.

So what do your kids think now about what you're— the new, new product? And what did they think of mom who's this serial entrepreneur? And we didn't even get to it, but I know you go to Burning Man every year, which is like another whole episode because I want to know all about that. Um, what do they think of Mom now? Have they learned how to bounce back from you, from seeing you go through all your experiences? And it sounds like you're courageous too. I'm gonna give you the 3 C's: courageous, creative, and curious.

Oh, thank you.

And to be honest, like, those are mine. Do you happen to be a Leo? Because I'm a Leo.

No, I'm an Aries.

Oh, Aries. My son's Aries. Not that I'm into— not that I'm into this, especially at the end of an interview. I start talking.

No, it's okay. Anyway, it's funny on the Aries thing. My girlfriend was into it when we were growing up. She said one thing that I still remember. She says, Aries will run into a wall and not think of going around it, above it, will just figure out a way to break it. Oh, so either the wall will break or the head will break. That's Aries.

So, so with all of your experience now, having launched two companies, this is your third, and your kids see you, you're like a strong mom, you're around for them, and you're doing all of these creative things that actually you're trying to affect their future.

Yes. So I must say, I had a discussion with my daughter one day when she was 10, and one time I came back from a business meeting and I missed something at school. And she says, when I grow up, I want to be a stay-at-home mom like all the moms in the neighborhood. And I felt like somebody is kicking me in the gut. This is, this is the role model I am? And I asked her why, and she said, because they're always there and you're not always there. And I, I remember when I was raising, I was speaking to female investor. And I told her the story and she said, "Tali, she says it now, but believe me, she takes a lot out of you without saying it." So she wants you to be there. But on the other hand, she learns a lot from it. So my kids will not always say it. And I'm afraid that I don't want it to become a point where they won't feel that they can fit in my shoes because we are all different. And I may go one direction, they may go the other direction, and we can all be successful if we're doing what we love and we believe in that and we have the stamina to keep on going because it's tough. Being an entrepreneur is tough. I was talking to high schoolers about entrepreneurship and I said, Don't get so excited because it's like getting up in the morning, crossing the street, being run down by a car, getting up, continue walking, and then stepping into a dog poo. Sorry for the language. And then it's great. But then something happens again and again and again. And you need to keep on getting up and keep on walking because there's going to be people that say, you're going to fail. And there's going to be people that are going to say that it's going to be terrible and you're not good and we're not believing in you. And when you, even when you raise, you'll get a lot of nos before you'll get a yes. And it's tough.

And even your own mind can say things to you.

Right. It's like, why am I doing that? But if you love what you're doing and you believe in that, you just put it aside and say, It's gonna be good, it's gonna be fine, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it.

Positive expectations.

Exactly.

And then you have to believe 100%, right?

So I tell my kids, it's like, okay, there's no failure. It's not— there's no failure because you cannot fail. Yes, you will fail 10,000 times in a day. You will fail. What I want to see is that you get up and you move forward, because if you go and sorry for yourself and you become that victim, you can easily become victims. I mean, I could have become a victim. Oh my God, my company failed. This is horrible. This is all their fault or whatever. But instead it says, you know what? I failed. Here are the lessons I can learn from it. Now I'm going to pick up the pieces, get my shit together.

Yes.

And move on. That's resilient. That's just— just do it. Let's just try. What's the worst case? We will fail.

Yeah, and, and we learn by failing. Our brains are— yes— wired that way. I got chills because, yes, I do believe in everything you're saying. It's amazing. It's the growth mindset.

Yes.

And so your kids are watching you do all this. It's amazing. It's a big lesson. And I find that everything you've done was around children, whether it was the CPR or raising awareness about screen addiction, and now with trying to cultivate creativity and curiosity in a forum that's outside of school because, you know, we need that right now. That's all for your kids' futures.

Yes.

And I also know you're planting trees.

Yeah, but that's also for them, right? For them.

Yes.

Yes.

So it's called Trillion Trees.

It's called One Trillion. The number one tree, obviously. N-L-L-I-O-N. I'm not planting trees because there's a lot of trees that needs to be planted, actually trillions of them. I cannot plant trees, even if I really want to. And they need to be planted all over the world in order to stop climate change, not fix it, just stop it so we can make a change in order to have a better world. But I also— we were talking about the benefits of trees, how great it is to walk in the forest for your mental and physical health.

Yeah, like tree bathing.

Yes. So trees give us a lot from, I mean, food, shelter, right? The things we know of, but also health. And I find it really easy to do because in a way All I need to do is connect people that want to donate to make a difference because we think, oh God, climate change, what can I do? You can do things. One of them is donate to the organizations that plant trees so we will have a better world. So we are fundraising to plant a trillion of trees.

Uh-huh. And what if somebody wanted to plant a tree themselves? Like, where could they go to do it? It's almost like there's no space that's free to plant a tree if you wanted to. You know, it's like owned by somebody. Everything's owned.

So I actually went by the research that came out a few months ago, and there need to be planted 3.4 trillion of trees. And it's all over the world. It's here in the United States, it's in Canada, it's in Brazil, it's in Europe, it's in Russia, it's everywhere.

Uh-huh.

But different location needs different type of trees because you don't want to plant a tree that will affect the local ecosystem.

Yeah. Okay.

You want to go plant a tree, great. You can try to plant a tree, but that's not going to move the needle.

Okay. So you need to actually have these organizations who know what they're doing, which species to plant.

Exactly. So that's why—

So don't just like throw bamboo everywhere.

Yes. So what we are doing, we are fundraising and then we distribute grants to organizations that prove that they can plant a tree. More than that, they can bring that tree to maturity.

Wow.

So they are there when they are needed. And also they support the local community. They do not affect the water, biodiversity. There's a lot of things that go into it. It's a fascinating thing to see. I have to check it out. Go ahead, please. Yeah, definitely.

Amazing talking to you. Maybe your daughter said you weren't home 3 years ago, but you're actually doing stuff that affect their lives.

Thank you for having me.

Amazing interview, and I had so much fun talking to you.

Thank you. Okay, that was a pleasure.

You can follow Tali at hermedium.com/@taliorad. T-A-L-I-O-R-A-D. You can take action by donating to One, the number 1 trillion, T-R-E-E W-I-B-B-L-I-O-N dot org. And join Wibble, a vlogging tool, W-I-B-B-L-E dot app. Thank you so much for listening. This is Dr. Juna Bobby MD, your resilience and stress management specialist. For show notes and links, go to mindbodyspace.com and click on the podcast tab. Follow us on Instagram, mindbody.space, for resilience tips, giveaways, and more.