Overwhelmed? Tips to Increase Productivity and Decrease Stress with Organizational Psychologist Fiona Murden

But if you put a load of rubbish down, even you just put your thoughts down, you at least have started. And that goes for a piece of art. It goes for starting a company. It goes for any project. It can feel uncomfortable. It can feel like, well, if that's what I've produced, I'm not gonna get to where I want to. And you have to kind of suspend judgment in those first moments. And it's almost like warming up a car engine on a cold day, and it's just like you have to warm the engine up before you take the car out. And it's a similar sort of thing.

Don't judge.

Don't judge.

Welcome to the Mind Body Space Podcast, where you can boost your resilience just by listening. We're here to help you reduce stress at the cellular level, enhance focus, and achieve peak performance for you and your kids. Hi, I'm Dr. Juna Bobby MD. I'm a mom, a board-certified physician, certified expert in mind-body medicine, and a Harvard Harvard-trained educator. Join me as I explore fascinating insights on evidence-based strategies to unlock your best life. Have you ever felt overwhelmed? I know I have, and a lot of times it makes us procrastinate. And we all need help sometimes getting started. Start— getting started can actually be the hardest thing. And once we get that sort of push and handholding and someone to help us through that beginning resistance, The rest of it can be so much easier. That's why today I'm thrilled to welcome my awesome friend Fiona Murden. Fee and I hit it off immediately thanks to our shared passion for understanding the reactionary brain and helping people to manage their stress levels so they can be at their best. As a mom, renowned psychologist, and award-winning author, Fiona brings a wealth of knowledge, and today I'm excited for her to share her insights on how to get complex projects done.

How are you, Ophélie? Thank you so much for coming.

Thank you, Anna, as always, in your company.

I'm so excited to be reunited here. All right, so today we're going to talk about something that a lot of people are struggling through right now, whether you're applying for college or maybe you're working on a big project at work, or in my case, trying to launch a product called Zenbiddy.

This is news to me.

Yes, yes, that's what I've been working on up at Harvard Innovation Labs. I've been developing this toy product.

Oh, that's so cool.

Called Zen Bitty.

That's so cool. Yeah. So feel free to follow me on Instagram @zen, Z-E-N-B-I-T-T-Y. We're just getting started. I'm so excited about this. It's basically a toy that helps children learn about their nervous system and also helps parents to teach the kids to learn how to calm down and to access their parasympathetics and relaxation response.

Amazing. So.

It's like 2-in-1. It's very low tech. It has tech in it though, but it's very low tech cuz we all want our kids off screens, right? It's like a beautiful fuzzy little toy.

That's so cute.

It's her first dumpling. It has like a little low tech. I won't tell you exactly all the details yet, but that's a complex project that I'm working on and it's a passion project, but I also have kids who are working on their thesis papers, panicking, and others working on their college applications. All of these things kind of seem insurmountable at times and can cause so much overwhelm. So when you're, as an organizational psychologist, how do you approach or how do you get your CEOs to approach major projects?

Well, CEOs tend to be quite good at that sort of stuff. Um, so they will—

true, true, in their field, in their fields, but maybe not in there.

Yeah, no, that's right.

Things— maybe it has something to do with their kids.

No, it's very true, actually. And, um, but there's one guy that I coached a few years ago who was— while he was incredibly successful in the commercial world, he had this real passion to want to do something around restaurants. And the more we talked about it, the more I realized this was like, it wasn't just a little like thing in his head. This was something he really had thought about for a long, long time. And it lit him up whenever he spoke about it. And so that, that's an example actually. And the thing was there was to get started. Um, because I don't think a lot of these things you can sit and think and think and think and think, and you can even sit and talk and talk and talk and talk, but until you actually get started, it doesn't really mean that much unless you're inspiring other people to take action. And so, you know, there's one saying, it's you don't have to be great to start, but you have to start to be great. You know, that prime example of that.

I love that saying.

Yes.

And getting that start, sometimes you need outside help to get that start. For example, I had a student who was panicking over their thesis paper and, you know, they were waffling between topics and it's like kind of that chicken or the egg, what comes first? So if you don't know that there's datasets or research out there that you can use to back up your thesis. You, you're not gonna pick that topic, right? So much. But then in order to pick a topic, you kind of have to know what's out there. So you have to do things simultaneously. And a lot of times people wanna do things in order. And if they can't start with that first step, we start to kind of freak out, right? And, and I was doing the same thing. I was, you know, trying to connect with engineers and software engineers, um, to help me to refine my prototype. And at the same time I was working on the design of the product. So those two things seemed contradictory. You know, like I felt like I wanna do one thing and get things done before I can like show it to kids or talk to parents about it. But all of these things have to sometimes start simultaneously, and that is a difficult thing.

Yeah.

And I also think they have to start in a scrappy way. So if you are someone who is a perfectionist, someone that has high standards, it can be really difficult to do that because you want to get things to a certain state before you share them or before you, you do something else. But actually, particularly in the world of entrepreneurs, you can't do that. You do not have the— I mean, the reality of it is you have to move quickly as well if you're doing something, for example, as an entrepreneur. And so you do have to have a few things going on at once. And, you know, with the startup that I built, we were constantly, it felt like I was like, oh, but we haven't done that yet and we should be doing that and we haven't done that. You do have to run these things simultaneously. The thing I would say though is it doesn't mean you're not planned. So you can have like, for example, with your product, it sounds like you're very clear on what your endpoint is. That might have to adjust or evolve if you find that something's not going to work or it's going to cost way more money than you expected. But if we can have that end point in mind, so with the thesis, it would be, um, we're talking about PhD, it would be successfully completing that PhD. What do we want that to be on? And then I think part of it is holding those two things in mind at once. So part of it is holding the This is where I want to get to, and this is where I am now. And then keep checking in on that. So it's like, okay, this week I feel like I've done nothing. I feel like I've gone round and round in circles, but it's coming back to that. What is the vision I have? What's the endpoint I have? Where am I trying to get to with this? And it's trying to keep that in mind, which is something else that CEOs has to do when they're leading a team, leading thousands of people sometimes. It's saying, right, today I want you to get on with your job, but just remember, you know, if things are tough, if we feel like we're not getting anywhere, if the markets are hard, this is our vision. This is where we're aiming to get to. And one thing that first-time CEOs find a little bit hard is you have to keep communicating that over and over and over again because people don't hear, they forget. But it's the same with ourselves. We have to keep reminding ourselves, why am I doing this? What is this about? What will this look like? Um, so I don't know how that fits with, with what you're doing, Juna.

Oh yeah, absolutely. I think the reason we have such great conversations is because the problems that CEOs are dealing with, so is everyone else in their lives. So you could even parallel this to a student who is writing their college application.

I have that in my house at the moment. I can relate to that.

Oh, there you go.

Yes.

And I have clients who are struggling through it. Of course, I'm helping and guiding them, but one of my favorite books, Extreme Productivity by Posen. He's a, he's an MIT lecturer. He's executive of multiple companies and he talks about starting with the end in mind, whether you're writing something. Whether you're going to give a speech, whether you're going to ask your parents for a dog, or if you're writing your college essay, start with the end in mind. Like, what do you want them to know about you? So let's say in an essay, right? So you're writing a college essay. You're going to start with, what do I want them to leave with from what I'm writing? Like, what kind of impression do they— do I want them to have? And in the same way with my product, again, what you were talking about, having that end in mind. And then constantly asking yourself as you go forward, just start, but then ask yourself and then iterate. So iterate, iterate, redo, and always be open to having to tweak that end goal a little bit, adding and subtracting from that end goal. But it goes for anything, writing a paper, starting a project, uh, running a company, or like that complicated company you started with, uh, software as a service, SaaS.

Mm-hmm. I mean, it's a, it's a journey.

Yeah, and I, I think the first thing is, um, you know, when you're finding yourself in that panic mode, just to start something somewhere. So whether if you're starting an essay, just start scribbling whatever is coming to your mind, you know, just get it down on paper with an end goal, maybe on a big piece of paper next to it, and just start somewhere.

And actually what you are saying there reminds me of writing books. Because when you're faced with writing a book, you're going from nothing to having to produce 80,000 words. And me being me, I did it in silly tight deadline because I do know that I work well under pressure. So the pressure sort of gives you a kick up the bum, as I'd say, um, and to make you, to make you do it. And But there were days where I would come down and I was thinking, oh my goodness, I've got, I don't feel I've got anywhere. And I still haven't started chapter 6, 7, 8, or 9. And I don't quite know what they're going to be because the chapters before them have changed slightly. And it was exactly as, as you described it was get something down. And there's, you know, people will say you can't edit something that you don't have. And so if you haven't, if you haven't put anything down in writing, you can't edit it. But if you put a load of rubbish down, even you just put your thoughts down, you at least have started. And that goes for a piece of art. It goes for starting a company. It goes for any project. It can feel uncomfortable. It can feel like, well, if that's what I've produced, I'm not gonna get to where I want to. And you have to kind of suspend judgment in those first moments. And it's almost like warming up a car engine on a cold day. And it's just like, you have to warm the engine up before you take the car out. And it's a similar sort of thing.

Don't judge.

Don't judge.

I love that. Don't judge in the beginning. Don't judge yourself. Don't judge your work. Just let it come out, whether it's on paper. Or if you're talking to somebody about it, and if you have advisors, you can call advisors. I spoke to my advisor today, was very helpful. And I keep coming back to writing, but I think that even if you're creating a physical product or, um, doing something, I think writing about it is also useful. But if you're writing an essay, for example, or a paper, you can, uh, follow this template that I love, like in the book Extreme Productivity. Highly recommend that book. It goes through a template you can do, like the bullet points you can make. Basically, it's an outline, and I love outlines, and I love outlines even for writing. And another one of my favorite authors who have an amazing work eth— who has an amazing work ethic, R.L. Stine. He's the author of those Goosebumps series. He talks about his process as an outline. Like he starts with an outline, then he has a, a formula basically. So that allows him to be prolific. He's one of the bestselling authors for middle school children's books, like reading books. I don't know if you're familiar with it. Goosebumps.

No, but I will now go and look it up.

He has a class on MasterClass, that app, and he talks about how he writes and it's so encouraging. I think for me, even, right, you know, creating a product, being able to outline that and know what I want in the end of this thing, it helps me to break it down into those little steps. It's cliché, but everybody says like, take one little step at a time. And you need to write this outline in order to get those steps. And even with my life, I feel like there's an end and there's the beginning.

And then it's, oh no, don't say that.

Yes. But all of us, I mean, like there's that end, there's the beginning, and then there's the middle. Like, how do you wanna live your life almost? So this whole outline idea, I've thought about it so much, and I think that I might even write a book on it someday, but using outlines to help you get through life and live your best life.

I think it's such a helpful concept, and an outline is loose, an outline isn't concrete, but it's there. It's almost like you're putting a ring around it. You're saying, this is where I want to get to. This is sort of a bit about it. And I will take that one step. And what you were saying made me think, actually, that one step is just as important when we're going through emotional difficulties. Um, when my dad, dad died, my husband said, I'm so sorry to hear that. Yeah, I mean, these things happen to all of us, but the first weeks after he died, I would go running every day. Running is not my favorite thing. I love fitness and I love bored, but running isn't my favorite. But I would literally look down at my feet and I would think, just put one foot in front of the other and just do one at a time. That's all you need to think about. Just do one at a time. And it's a way that can help you get through all sorts of things that are tough, whether it's something like grief or whether it's something that's gonna have a positive outcome, like a product or, you know, thesis or a college application, hopefully. Uh, so I think really what we're saying is there's the vision and the vision doesn't have to be clear. It doesn't have to be absolutely spot on in the way that you create goals, which tend to be more concrete. A vision can be vague. It can be broad. I would say keep working on firming it up, and if you are leading other people, That's a different matter. It does have to be clear. Um, but it's then come back and say, how can I take that first step? And what is my outline? And it's those sort of three things together that are kind of the ingredients that help you to really to, to get through creating.

I love it. So let's just zoom out, have that takeaway for our audience. So if you're struggling with anything, whether it's emotional or a project or a paper you have to write, start with that goal in mind. It doesn't have to be an exact goal. It could be a, a vision or something that you feel, or, but get it out into the physical world, whether it's on a piece of paper or you build something out of cardboard. You know, this class that I'm taking here, Learning Design, Innovation, Technology at Harvard Grad School. They talk about iterations and just not just a minimal viable product, but rapid prototyping, meaning you could just build it out of paper just to see it outside of your brain, cuz your brain needs to process something outside of itself to see it, visualize it, and touch it. So the key 3 takeaways are zoom out, kind of have an idea of where you wanna go, just like if you're using a map. To get to a destination, then create an outline, a beginning and maybe 3 points in the middle. And then that's how you're gonna get to those steps that you can take every single day, the little steps, and know that you can always come back and revisit. You probably should do it every once a week or something like that.

I mean, absolutely. I think it was Steve Jobs who said that he checked in with himself several times a day. To reprioritize and make sure, are my priorities correct? Because really we should only be looking at focusing on 1, 2, 3 things. And so what are those 3 things and what is most important at the moment? You don't have to do it like several times a day, but doing it once a week, I think it's massively important. Think about it, reflect back on what you've achieved. It's okay if it's not a lot. Don't start beating yourself up because that's not going to get you to the next step. Be gentle, be kind to yourself, and then go on from there. And I do think that piece around, you know, be prepared to produce something that's really rubbish to start with. There's no way—

rubbish, I love that word.

Garbage, you know.

Rubbish.

Yes. It's okay if the first version is like out of paper. It's a scribbled mess, whatever it is. It's okay if it's not perfect. In fact, it would be very strange if it was perfect. It would mean that you'd been sitting, working it through too many times in your head.

But the iterations are what's going to— it's kind of like chipping away at a marble statue. The iterations are going to get you to your end point, but you have to start somewhere. So I think we came up with a great 3-step system. I, I love it. It's not. Totally original. Basically having that vision, outlining it, and then taking the first steps. And especially with papers, I think that you have to give yourself room to change your mind constantly, especially if it's some sort of creative or a narrative where you have to talk about yourself. You know, give yourself that room to iterate.

I think most creatives, if you listen to them, will say that they have produced so many versions or drafts before they get to that final. And I mean, James Clear, Atomic Habits, is a good example of someone who's very, very good at communicating and writing. But he says that he writes, you know, many different versions of something before he kind of comes to the one that then is put out there. So whilst his sentence that he maybe posts, you know, once a week or in his newsletter looks so clear and hits the nail on the head, whatever he's talking about. There's been a big process behind producing that. If he put out his third version, his fifth version, it probably would be a bit average. So to get to that point of being something that you feel really proud of will take iterations. It will take throwing things away along the way. It will take making lots of mistakes and miss— misteps as well.

And I just wanna go back to a comment you said earlier about being kind to yourself. Literally, if you're not kind to yourself, I mean, we're all gonna have those moments when we beat up on ourselves a little bit, but just remind yourself that that's shutting down your brain because you are tapping now into your sympathetic nervous system, your stress response, which becomes very narrow about how to just escape that pain. Rather than, uh, what you need for creativity, which is to open up into your parasympathetic nervous system, just kind of relaxing your brain to get into the state of flow. I know you know a lot about flow, but to get into that state, you have to release that part of your brain that says you're in danger, you know? So when, when you're not beating up on yourself, when you're being a little bit kinder, you'll allow yourself to be able to tap into your nervous system in a way that you can get into state of flow. And, uh, let's not forget, let's not forget sleep. Sleep will consolidate. If you can't figure something out, take a nap, you know, take a 30-minute nap or think about it in the morning.

And on the point that you're making there, what was the point you're making there?

About stress?

Oh, about being kind to yourself. I think that we should probably do a session on that because on social media you'll see messages that say be kind to yourself, speak to yourself in a nice voice. But it's really hard to actually put into practice because of the way we have been brought up, the cultures generally that, that we've been brought up in within the West, Western society. Mm-hmm. So I think people need help on actually how to do that. I definitely needed help on how to do that. Um, and I did a, did a course with Kristen Neff and Chris Germer. It'd be great to share some of their amazing insights because they really are Brilliant on this stuff.

Yes, let's do it. Let's do that next. I love that. And you know, we all need reminders because first of all, you have to be aware that you're talking to yourself that way. And a lot of times it just goes under the radar. I think I'm being nice to myself. And then when you pay attention, you're like, wait, am I saying something?

Absolutely.

All right, you're on. So next time I'd love to talk about that.

Amazing. Let's do that.

I just had Russell Colts on, Dr. Russell Colts. He wrote the book on Compassion to Transform Anger.

Oh, interesting.

Amazing. Okay. We will see you next time and thank you so much for joining us, Bee, or joining me.

I'm just as happy to join you anytime.

I love seeing you. Big hugs. And I'll see you next time to talk about compassion and remind ourselves how we can do it, actually.

Amazing. Exactly. Do that.

Thank you for joining me on the Mind Body Space Podcast. Subscribe, share, and review, and soon you'll have more Zen people around you. Get our newsletter to get special tips and discounts on our new courses and our new upcoming Zenbitty plush that helps you and your child train your brain to fight stress at the cellular level while having fun together. Until next time, this is Dr. Juna Bobby MD wishing you and your family wellness.