Part 2: Laurie Cameron author of The Mindful Day and CEO of Purpose Blue

Hey, welcome back to part 2 of my conversation with Lori Cameron, author of The Mindful Day and CEO of Purpose Blue. We continue our conversation around how we use these practices in our home, with our students at schools, and Lori shares with us her story of deep losses that led her to the practice of mindfulness. And the transformation that it gave her. She truly believes that wellness lies within our ability to become self-aware with emotional intelligence and compassion for others as well as ourselves.

So all these tools like STOP, a teenager can use that, college kids.

I love to teach the STOP practice to teenagers. It's really interesting. One large professional services company, it's a new client for me, my company, they just asked for a program, a resilience, a set of courses and tools for working parents. And I've never had a company ask me for a proposal to help working parents. I thought that was really, really—

I love it because right now the kids are home, so it's a big challenge.

Yes, it's a big challenge. And this company said Wait, the most important thing right now is helping these parents build up their resilience and find ways to manage this unprecedented time where they've got homeschool on the kitchen table and they've got Zoom happening in there, wherever they might be hiding, in the closet. Some people are Zooming in the front seat of the car. I mean, I've, I've seen it all and I've done it all. So I was really inspired that that they made that decision and decided to invest in working parents. Now we're naming the whole program Resilience for Caregivers because we're recognizing that there's a broader term there. There's all kinds of people caring for all kinds of people right now.

And what would your biggest recommendation be for parents who are home? And let's say somebody can't afford full-time childcare. And I guess you and I are out of the woods because our kids are older. But what if you have younger kids and you're trying to focus on all of this and you don't have a caregiver because maybe your, you know, babysitter can't come to you now, for example? That, that's a situation that I've heard about, you know. Yeah. So what would you recommend for those parents?

Yeah, I'm really helping people build internal resources. So I think it's really important that parents have some kind of practice for themselves where they are hiding in the bathroom and bringing attention to the breath and, and offering themselves compassion, you know, saying, this is hard, I'm not the only one, and what do I need right now? Those 3 steps is a self-compassion practice. I think that is number 1 because we need to reset and breathe and release tension and build up our, our resources internally so that we don't snap at our kids, so that we don't just plug them into Netflix when they're not plugged into school, but that we actually become the source of calming energy. Because the truth is, we are energy. We're radiating energy. You know, it's been measured, I think, up to 6 feet out. Some people say 9 feet. But that when a parent walks in a room, whatever state they're in affects the child. So I really work on that. I work on the, on the parent as an instrument of grounding, centered presence. And if they have to, you know, put on a funny movie like I do and laugh with my kids, so we're all relaxed, That might be the way. And there are other ways. My daughter and I love music. We blare music, we sing. She can sing Morrissey and The Smiths, Fleetwood Mac. You know, I sing all her new stuff. Jaden Smith just dropped a new album this week. I'm already learning it. So, you know, we come together through music.

And then to teach the kids the same practice, right? Maybe do it together, possibly.

Yeah, yeah. So we, since Ava, my daughter, was little, she's been going to meditations. Her first was when she was 3. She did a 3-day weekend in the Russian River Valley in California with the nuns and monks from the Thich Nhat Hanh tradition. That's the tradition where I learned mindfulness meditation. And she wasn't sitting silently in a circle. You know, with their eyes closed, she was wandering around like all the other little kids, but we were sitting. So she was learning from a very small age that people sit, sit quietly with their eyes closed, or they breathe, or they sing together. And I think that is super powerful. When we do walking meditation at that retreat, for example, we were in a line and walking slowly under a full moon. They were kind of dancing around, you know, in the night sky. So kids don't have to do it in a way that looks exactly like we're doing it, but we teach more by example than by teaching. So parents always ask me, you know, can you come over and teach my kid mindfulness? How do I teach them the practices? And I always answer, do it, just do it yourself. And then narrate what you're doing. So since Ava was little, I'll say, oh my gosh, I've got so much on my plate today. I need to, I need to build in some time throughout the day, 5 minutes here and there to just stop and breathe. Or I'll say, I need to go take a walk in nature. I'm going to leave my phone here and I'm going to go take a walk. So by narrating the practices that we're doing without saying practice, without saying mindfulness, Just normalizing, right? And I'm not, I'm not perfect in any way. I think I'm coming off like I'm, you know, maybe constantly meditating or taking pauses. I mean, sometimes I'm, I don't even, who knows what, right? You know, just juggling too much, saying yes to too much.

But the important thing is when we lose it, to apologize and come back. You know, if you're living in, in the world with kids and a job and and bills to pay, you're going to have moments where you're not gonna be so centered. You can come back with awareness and an apology and just get right back on track without beating yourself up. I think that's pretty important.

It's one of the most important things I think I'm focused on right now with my daughter is it's one of the hardest things I've had to overcome. Is being hard on myself and beating myself up, and I'm not free of it. So it's one of my core teaching focuses is self-compassion. And, you know, they say you focus on teaching the thing that's the hardest for you, and that has been the hardest for me. I really think I can best serve my daughter by making that very transparent, you know, how hard it is. And I talk out loud, or I admit mistakes and laugh. So My most recent one is this weekend. I, I have this Italian, small Italian manual espresso maker. You might know those, you know, they're metal, they screw together and they have a little black like Bakelite little handle on it. And so I, we've spent the last 25 years in, in Tuscany in the summer, so I'm used to having that little espresso in the summer. And I thought, okay, I'm, I can't go to Italy, I can't travel, but I'll make it on my stove. So I put I put it on and I left the kitchen and went upstairs and started folding laundry. And my daughter came in my room and she said, mom, are you burning incense? And I actually had burned incense in my room earlier that day for meditation. And I said, yeah, yeah. You know, I'm surprised you can still smell it, but yeah. And she started going down the stairs and then she yells, mom, mom, you know, and the gas flame was on. And that bakelite handle just completely melted down onto the stove. The inside of the first floor smelled like burning rubber, or I don't know what chemicals. I mean, it was bad, right? So I just said, and I just laughed and I said, you know, it's so human to make mistakes. And I've got so much on my mind and here I go. And I said, I do these things for you, honey, so that when you make mistakes, you know, it's just normal. And of course that made her laugh, but I just, I think it's important how our kids watch us make mistakes.

You know, like, I love that one. I do.

Do I beat myself? Do I say, oh man, I can't believe you. You know, like what's the voice that's normally in my head, but as I'm saying it out loud in front of my daughter, what's it saying? And I just laughed.

And I had the opposite. My son, for the first time, he had a little car accident. So thank goodness nobody was hurt. And I could have flown off the handle. Yeah. And I felt that, you know, kind of frustration. I mean, who needs to, who needs another expense and who needs to go to the body shop, right? I could imagine myself going off. I could hear the words in my head.

Yeah.

But I didn't use them, which was great. And you know, he felt so bad already. I just took a breath and I thought about how I've been so lucky to spend so much time with my college-age son, which wouldn't normally happen except for the pandemic. So that's the silver lining. And I just remembered, I remembered how many times when I was a driver in my 20s, I had the tiniest little accidents like in parking lots. Thank goodness nothing major, but it was always like fender benders and I had to remember that, that I did that multiple times. I mean, yes, I was working and I paid for it, but you know what? He actually said he would pay for it. Wow.

Well done, Mom.

Wow.

That's so great. I love that story. And I think that is a great example because that's the kind of thing where as a parent, we can see that as more on our to-do list.

Yes, for sure.

You know, just like, ugh. 'What? How am I gonna make this? How am I gonna get this done?' And you were able to pause.

Actually, guess what?

What?

It's on his to-do list.

Oh, okay. I think you need to start parenting classes for all of us. It sounds like you've raised such a great kid who took responsibility. He said he'd pay for it. It's on his to-do list.

I mean, well, I gave— I said, 'Here, this is the—' because he felt so bad, and I was like, 'This is the first thing you're gonna do. You're gonna take it to this mechanic.' And I gave him the number. And, you know, I could do all of these things for him. Yeah. But I want him to learn that he can do it too. Yeah. A lot of times I wanna do things for them because I don't want them to suffer. I, I want— Yes. Uh, to do it right the first time, or I wanna control it sometimes. And I was thinking, you know, he's so upset. Well, at least let him fix it and, and then also learn about how to contact mechanic or how to pay for something. I couldn't believe how much it was for just that fender. But I'm like, yeah, that's how much it is.

It's a— I'm inspired by your story. That's a beautiful story. And I was telling my daughter recently, actually it wasn't my daughter, it was my sister. We were on a back road in Maryland over by NASA Goddard Space Flight Center where my dad worked. And she and I actually, did a beach trip and we were driving home and we were on that road and I said, this is the road where, you know, this is the last time I ever drove the Matador. So we had this Matador, which they don't make anymore, by a company called AMC, American Motor Car. It's like this boxy car. I think they used to be police cars, not the one I had, but they made police cars. And we had this beautiful blue Matador with a white top and I was 16, and I was driving that car, and my dad had had a heart attack and was in the hospital. And he was a pretty strict guy, and I was kind of afraid of him. He had been known to— he was kind of a yeller. And I was so scared to go into the hospital where my poor dad had had a heart attack and tell him that the Matador is sitting out there on Soil Conservation Road behind NASA, completely done for. And I remember so clearly, even I can feel it in my body right now, that he was so patient and kind and compassionate. Wow. And I really braced myself, you know, got my courage up and the whole thing. And so it's funny that you bring that up, but I think we really learned, like my dad really taught me the way to meet those moments moments is with spacious compassion. So, and that might have been, who knows, we could analyze, you know, why did he have a different approach. Maybe it was the heart attack, maybe it was sitting in a hospital room thinking about life.

But yeah, that's a beautiful story. Well, mine is definitely influenced by the pandemic. Yeah, I have to say, my son was gonna— he said to me, I'm not telling Dad. Which is so funny because if anyone's the yeller, I'm the yeller. And my husband has no temper whatsoever. So I was like, why would you—

And so did he tell him?

Oh yeah. Okay, good. I'm like, don't call him now. He's working. He doesn't need you to call him in the middle of the day while he's with patients. And, you know, that's not something you want to pick up. I used to work in the city and I hated getting those calls.

Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, your advice to him reminds me of my first mentor, one of the people that's been most influential in my life. Her name was Susan Butler, and one of the lessons that she taught me that I continue to use is the lesson of timing. And she would always teach me how important timing is, and that before, you know, updates in a relationship or delivering bad news or making a request or giving an update or pitching somebody. So she was the first female partner at Arthur Andersen and later at Accenture, where I worked. She had an apartment in Washington, D.C., just a block from my little studio apartment in Washington, D.C., when I started working at Accenture. And she took me under her wing and started mentoring me. And I would bring her breakfast on Saturday mornings and we'd have muffins or bagels or whatever. And she really taught me a lot and mentored me through my career, through, you know, the first 2 decades. So I was really lucky. But the timing piece that you just taught your son is one of those lessons that she taught me. And I use that so much. And one of the adaptations or questions that I ask myself is, what's it time for now? That also comes up. So you can guide yourself, coach yourself with these questions of timing. Mm-hmm.

And you teach somebody how to time things by teaching them about emotional intelligence, right? Because you have to read the other person. You have to think about who you are presenting something to and what they're going through in order to have the right timing.

Yes, absolutely. And, and that's really where empathy comes in. You know, you mentioned when you would go to the city and you were a physician and you were probably pulled in many directions and had some critical decisions to make and you were full. You know, that wasn't the time to take— Full is right.

—a retreat from the home front. I was bustin'. Yeah. The school nurse would call and I'd be like, "Is everyone okay?" Just say that.

Right. Give me the headline right now.

Yes, the headline. Yes, exactly. So a lot of people have been asking about uncertainty. Honestly, we have always lived in uncertainty. It just doesn't feel like so much uncertainty. But now there's actual in-your-face uncertainty day to day. I mean, it was always there, right? You never knew if somebody could be taken away from you or your own life, right? There's always that. But nobody really thought about it as much as they do now. And there's so much uncertainty, whether it's just something around their schedules, how do you deal with that? So that was one of the questions that my little group, we have, I have a private Facebook group for moms. Oh, nice. And how do you deal with this uncertainty that's in our face? I mean, again, yeah, I can say that it's always been there.

Right. I know in the programs that I teaching, and it doesn't matter which organization or demographic, I, poll, and I ask people, you know, what's the biggest challenge for you in this pandemic? And I offer, you know, isolation, grief, loss, uncertainty, all that. And uncertainty is by far often the top. So it's actually, yeah, the biggest source of stress right now. And one of the things I teach is how to notice where your mind is. So that's mindfulness, right? Being aware of thoughts and what you're ruminating on, or if you're catastrophizing or if you're running a bunch of scenarios. That's what we do in uncertainty is we want to control and we want to predict. We'll say, okay, I guess school will be back in session on this date. Or right now what I'm hearing is there's going to be a wave 2. We're going to have a wave 2 in the pandemic. And other people are saying there's not going to be wave 2. And other people are predicting so-and-so is going to win the presidential election. Other people are saying the other one is. So there's all this noise and all this energy and distraction internally that we're doing to ourselves. So noticing where our thoughts are is skill number one. That's called meta-awareness and being able to recognize, ah, there I go again, and then catching that and bringing attention to an anchor. So I teach the basic mindfulness meditation practice of mindful breathing. So that's using the breath as an anchor to help people give their attention a stable base, because that is where peace resides. So when I realize that I'm off and scenario planning and guessing, or, or if I'm in a— if I'm talking to a friend and they start, you know, going and going and what if and this and that, I mean, it's not that I'm the most annoying friend on the planet and I shut it down, but I do, like, after a little bit, you know, I'll like laugh and make a joke or change the subject or say, yeah, that's hard. Or, but I move off of it. Like, so noticing our conversations, noticing our thoughts is skill number one. And then anchoring them on something, if it's just the breath. So I'll do the 3 breath reset and just you know, focus on my breath, or I'll deliberately direct attention to something that brings me joy or brings me a smile, or— and, and that's really where gratitude comes in. So, um, I do— where I work is at the intersection of positive psychology, contemplative practice, and science. And in positive psychology, we know that directing attention to things that generate positive states really lift us out of that negative spiral. So uncertainty, the way, the way uncertainty works in the brain is we perceive it as a threat. And when we perceive something as a threat, it puts us below the line. So then it triggers the amygdala, which you were talking about, the bottom up. It triggers the emotional alarm system of the brain. That, you know, triggers a release of adrenaline and cortisol. We get stressed, we get agitated, we get irritable. So we can learn to start to recognize our thoughts and our state and then shift them on demand. You know, one of the courses I teach is Cultivating a Positive Mind. So navigating uncertainty is about knowing where your mind is and not, you know, it's not about checking out or being passive or putting your head in the sand or ignoring reality or being lazy. It's about recognizing, um, where your mind is and practicing the skill of acceptance for current reality. I teach we accept what we can control and what we can't control. I accept all of it. It's all here. And then if it's the weather or, you know, or I'm stuck in traffic, I can't influence that. But if it's something within my circle of influence, I can take wise and skillful action. And wise and skillful action comes out of a brain and body that's above the line. So if I'm below the line and I'm triggered and upset and freaked out and my brain's foggy and I'm, you know, using coping mechanisms that are going to fog me up even more, then I'm not going to be very skillful. So I'm teaching a lot, a lot of acceptance strategies to companies, and first attention, then acceptance, and then generating positive states. So, you know, there's a lot we can do to navigate uncertainty.

So maybe you can lead us through that, okay? Like a little meditation.

That's all three of those.

Um, oh, okay, you don't do it all?

No, no, I certainly can. I love doing that. Okay. It's—

I'll put it on a separate podcast so that it'll be there for people to use.

Okay. Oh, that's good. That's fun. That's a great idea.

That's kind of like similar to what, uh, what I was recommended by the Benson-Henry Institute. They do the, um, 3 steps to relaxation response and then do a 5-minute visualization of your best self.

I love that. I think that's so powerful. I'm in a small group, and we meet every Monday morning at 7:15. It's very early, not my ideal time, but I went along with the group, and we had a meeting this morning, and we did— I actually led a meditation on— it's sort of a, it's a best self, which we do in Search Inside Yourself as well, a best future self. This morning we did, um, the wise elder. And it was really cool. It's a derivation of that, and that was fun to work with too, is visualizing yourself 20, 30 years from now, like what you might look like, and doing that as a practice. So I think future self, ideal self, higher self, wise elder.

Yeah, for my teens, I give them your wizard. Oh, nice. And the fairy godmother for compassion.

Oh, tell me about that. Tell me how you describe those.

So I give them like the fairy godmother is compassionate, but she knows everything about you, including all of your faults, but she's still compassionate.

That's great. Do you do that with your son? He has a fairy godmother? My son? You said your teens, right?

My teenagers that I teach.

The students I teach. Oh, okay. So what about your own teens? Do you— did you teach them those two things?

Oh yeah, they've come to all of my lectures. They've handed out attendance sheets. They've, they've taken pictures. They've, they've been basically my right-hand people. They come to all my lectures. So I hope, I know it, most of it seeped in. They could probably teach it. But my son, I've recently told him, you know, you should pick up meditation again because, you know, he's a computer science and statistics major and he would love to work at one of those big tech companies. And I say, You know, they meditate. That's right. A lot of the founders, I know Mark Benioff of Salesforce also, right? Salesforce, yeah. So he's like, hmm, interesting.

He's a big Thích Nhất Hạnh practitioner, Mark Benioff. Is he? Okay. When Thích Nhất Hạnh had a stroke a few years ago, Mark Benioff flew Thích Nhất Hạnh in his private plane and the monastics. Nuns and monks to San Francisco and put him up in his own residences and ensured he had the best help for months. So that I really admire his support of Thich Nhat Hanh because, you know, he's really, he's one of my teachers. I've been practicing with him for 25 years. He would come to the United States every 2 years. And traveled to the 3 monasteries that he has here in New York, Mississippi, and California. And his vision— so he's really the— his primary mission, you know, is to, is to help us all have more peace and less suffering, but was to create communities that lay people like you and I could come and stay and practice. So that was really innovative when he started that decades ago. And so that I and my husband and daughter, we could go and live and sleep and cook and play volleyball and walk and practice with the nuns and monks. And so that's how we were able to learn from him and meditate with him and be in his Dharma talks. And they made a documentary of Thích Nhất Hạnh. They, whoever they are, the guys that did it. And it's called Walk with Me. And I was so surprised to discover that my daughter is in that documentary walking with Thích Nhất Hạnh, holding his hand. Wow. So we were at a monastery practicing with him when the film crew came, and I just, I didn't know that they were filming a documentary. So that's kind of cool, but— I have to watch it. Yeah, it's really, it's really great. So I encourage your son to meditate. I actually taught a lot at Google in the US, Asia, and Europe. And again, at Google, it's self-selected. You don't have to meditate, but the courses there are usually filled up and waitlisted. And there's a real culture of fine-tuning the mind, just allowing it to chill out so that they can do the hard stuff. Yeah.

I mean, he did meditate for a little while. I mean, he knows how to do it and everything. I think he'll go back to it.

I think in college, I hear so many stories where kids learn it and then in college they find it again. Mm-hmm. You know, when they're off on their own or they're, you know, figuring out who they are and they're letting go of ideas or things that they might have learned growing up that they don't really align with, and then they're digging deeper into those things that kind of make sense to them. So he's so lucky that you taught him and that he handed flyers out at all your lectures and took photos for you.

And so I know that you were— not always in the business of mindfulness.

You were a consultant? Yeah, so I, I— the foundation of my career has always been in human performance and development, and I worked as a management consultant for Accenture, a global consulting firm. And I was there for a long time, about a decade, and I was focused in organizational and individual change. So the psychology of what makes people thrive and why are some people more resilient than others and how do individuals learn and how did organizations learn and how do they change and why do some organizations, you know, go through a huge dip when they go through a change and others go through a slight, you know, blip and then they bounce back stronger than ever. So I've always been in the field of of human performance and development. And 25 years ago, I started practicing mindfulness with Thich Nhat Hanh when I was at Accenture, and one of my clients introduced me to mindfulness. She was an engineer from Vietnam. And so I was practicing on my own while I was being a consultant, you know, while I'm serving clients outwardly. And I slowly started bringing in these skills, you know, this idea to to stop and pause when I noticed the energy in the room was getting really high or intense, you know, to stop and pause and take a few breaths. And that didn't sound strange to anybody because our grandmother told us to do that. So I just didn't bill it as mindfulness or meditation. And then after about 10 years, I actually moved to Europe. I was living there, started my own company. And it was a leadership development company, leadership and culture change. And then I started bringing it in more and more. So there wasn't, you know, some people think I had one career and then took a right turn, but actually I just see it as the same trajectory. 25 years ago, I was teaching emotional intelligence at Accenture to the global partnership. So that started by Salovey and Mayer, these researchers in 1990 at Yale. And then Dan Goleman wrote a book called "Emotional Intelligence." So he took their work and framed it well. He packaged it up and wrote the literal book on it.

And then it became a household word.

Yeah, now more than ever. So that's been around for a long time. What's innovative is the work of Cheid-Ming Tung from Google who said, "Wait a minute, actually," and Mira Bai Bush, mindfulness. So he's looking at emotional intelligence, this Google engineer, employee 107, and he's looking at his colleagues and all these engineers and, you know, guys that are— and gals that are women, all kinds of people that are really focused on technical and functional skills and applications and product development, but they weren't so versed in understanding themselves. Yeah. Or understanding others or being empathetic with others. So he thought, you know, what I'm going to do is help them learn emotional intelligence. So he had this idea to bring emotional intelligence into Google and, and he was a practicing meditator. He was like, wait a minute, as I learned self-awareness from this book from Daniel Goleman, that's like so close to mindfulness. So he integrated mindfulness with emotional intelligence and said mindfulness is the way we develop these competencies. And I think that that was a real breakthrough. So he got Daniel Goleman and he got other folks and really got the best thinkers in all these domains and built this program. Search Inside Yourself, the leadership institute. Yeah. And I'm a master teacher with that group.

And that's how I met you. Yeah. Yeah. That's how we met. He is so funny. He's funny. And yeah, I have to admit that. I like use some of his jokes.

Yeah, he's really funny, and I love humor. You know, one of my favorite teachers, not to play favorites, but you know, one teacher that I really resonate with and my go-to. So it's my go-to teacher when, if it's not Thích Nhất Hạnh, at least once a week I play a recording or a Dharma talk, which is a, you know, a sermon if you will in the Buddhist world. From Jack Kornfield. And Jack Kornfield is so naturally funny. He's so fun. I find him so funny. And I trained with him recently. I did a 2-year program, even though I was already teaching mindfulness. I— he launched a 2-year program with Tara Brach, and they were— was going to be in person in California under the redwoods, 3-week-long retreats. And I thought, you know what, I might already be a I'm signing up for that. I'm flying out to the Redwoods. I'm going to be on the coast with Jack Kornfield and Tara Brach. It's hard to even get in his retreats. Wow. Yeah, it's like a lottery system. So I thought, okay, I'm gonna do that. I really resonated with his teaching. He's got a beautiful blend of storytelling that is just incredible. He just tells a string of stories. That's how he teaches. And he weaves some science in and he weaves humor in and it's very spontaneous and organic. I love it.

Yeah, I've seen him live. Yeah, and I just love him. He definitely has a lot of stories. Yeah, so, um, and I love his voice and, you know, and you're involved with their group, right, in Maryland?

Yeah, so I'm on the board of the Insight Meditation Community of Washington, which is part of the larger Insight Insight Meditation Society. So Jack founded Spirit Rock in California, and Tar Brock founded the one in Washington, DC, where I'm on the board. And then there's a main one in Barre, Massachusetts, that Sharon Salzberg and Joseph Goldstein founded. So yeah, I'm really delighted to be part of that organization.

And now, do you bring the Buddhism into the and if you do, is there ever any backlash? I know in schools there's definitely controversy over not bringing any type of religion whatsoever. I mean, obviously mindfulness can be secular and Buddhism, I mean, Buddha was secular. He was not really a religion as I understand, not that I'm a Buddhist, but—

Just like Jesus Christ was not a Christian.

Well, they say, was he Jewish, they say? Jesus Christ. Yeah. So he did have a religion. So yeah, but like Buddha was not a religion. Buddhism was not a religion at all. Buddha was a person and he came up with all of these observations. That's what I mean. That's my understanding. Yeah.

So I, um, to answer that, I don't bring any religion into the corporate world or universities. I teach K through 12 and do programs for parents funded by schools. It's not necessary. I teach science.

But I mean, they do know that you trained with Thich Nhat Hanh and that you have Buddhist roots. So is that ever an issue?

Yeah, I have Christian roots.

Christian. Oh, right.

You're Christian also. And so I don't— I'm not so into labels for myself. I put myself in a box, but in terms of— Right.

But I'm just saying, like, somebody's seeing you from the outside, like the institutions.

Yeah. I think what that does is that, you know, I have in my bio that goes to public schools and universities and hospitals. I put it in my bio that I was given the Dharma name Fresh Loving Kindness of the Heart by Thích Nhất Hạnh. And I thought about that carefully, like, am I going to put this in my bio? And I decided to do it. And the reason is I think it's really important especially today, that people know that I have a long-term, you know, almost 30-year practice of mindfulness meditation, that it's integrated into my life. That's what National Geographic was looking for when they were looking for an author for their Ultimate Guide to Mindfulness. They wanted someone that, that has been practicing for a really long time and that, that really has a a deep practice in it because it's not an overnight thing that you cultivate these things. So I think that's really important and that's served me really well. So that was a decision that I think has been powerful. What I'm known for, so my bumper sticker is that I translate contemplative science and contemplative wisdom into everyday language. So when I go into a school and I'm in an elementary school, I say, you know, your brain is like a popcorn machine and it's just like popping out thoughts all the time. And when I'm in the corporate world, I talk about the waterfall and I say, you know, we just got a waterfall of thoughts and emotions just constantly pouring down. And with mindfulness, we learn to step behind the waterfall and become a witnessing observer to that instead of being caught up in it. So I don't use Sanskrit words and I don't talk about the Buddha. I don't have quotes from the Buddha on my PowerPoint slides. I really keep it science-backed, evidence-based. And actually the science is from anything from a third grader to an MBA to a corporate boardroom. I always bring in the science. I always bring in the latest research, the studies, what we're learning about, about the brain and how much we don't know about the brain. And I think that number one, it's so interesting and I'm such a geek with that. But number two, I think it makes people feel safe. So they don't think I'm preaching or converting them or, cause it's not about that. I'm just about sharing what we're finding in science. Ancient wisdom from across contemplative traditions, not Christianity, not Islam, not Muslim, not Buddhist, not Hindu.

Because there's so much overlap.

Oh yeah, they're universal truths and people resonate with that. And I just get beautiful letters from readers of my book, The Mindful Day, or I have 5,000 people in my classroom on Insight Timer. I just got a beautiful letter yesterday, so I'm enjoying those letters that come from Christians and Jewish practitioners and atheists and, you know, because it's really not about what religion you practice or non-religion if you don't practice anything. It's about learning to develop skills and ways of relating to the world that allow you to have more inner peace and more compassion for yourself and others.

Oh, we can really all use that inner peace right now.

Oh my gosh, I tell you, we really can. And yeah, I think that people are looking for that. So I haven't had, um, when I first brought mindfulness to public schools here in Maryland, there was one parent that was concerned and wrote a letter to the school and, um, said, you know, our kids are in a highly gifted program and we're, you know, we're learning Common Core. It was like brand new then, and there's already too much to do in the day. We don't have time for this. So it was more like, we don't have time to add something else to the teacher's plate, right? Why are we learning this? And the teacher, she's so incredible, and she really really inspires me, Julie Quintana, she said, I said, I'll, you know, I'll draft a letter. And she said, I got this. She responded to the parent and said, ever since we started bringing, we do, every Friday I would go in and spend 30 minutes with her classroom. She said, ever since we started doing that, I have a quieter classroom. I don't have to clap my hands 3 times or say 1, 2, 3, eyes on me, or I don't have to try classroom management techniques. My kids know how to do it themselves. And she said, I've got more time in the day. People are better able to learn. They've got more agency and self-efficacy. And she did this beautiful letter. And then the parent went, wow. Okay.

Wow. That's beautiful. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. I love it. I'm also impressed by you because you teach such a wide range of ages.

That's interesting. No one's asked me that before. Um, it wasn't by design. Um, it really was—

is it because you can't say—

uh, well, that is a, that is a problem I'm working with. But, um, uh, I even, I even write about that in my book, The Mindful Day, like how to say no. And you know that now, you know, all the things in my book are because I struggle with all of them. But, um, saying no is really hard. But, but the reason I teach in schools is because when my daughter was in 4th grade and the Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh was visiting the United States, he was in his late 80s. And I thought, oh my goodness, you know, we— I really want to go to spend a week on retreat with him. And it's in September, and my daughter is just starting 4th grade, and she was in this program that was intense. And I thought, uh-oh, how am I going to do that? And I want her to meet him. Like, I had that somehow, that view that it's almost like my, my parents never took me to see Elvis live. No, but it's more of an immersive experience to be with someone like that. So I went to, um, actually called the monastery and I talked to a nun and she said, you know what, go ahead and give all her teachers a, you you know, a book from Thích Nhất Hạnh, which I thought, you know, I thought, really? This is a public school system. You know, I don't think that's going to work. And then, you know, so anyway, I did it. And then her teacher said, you know what? The world is our school. I think, you know, this is a great idea. So her homeroom teacher encouraged it. So we got in the car and drove 900 miles to this monastery in the Deep South. And when I came back, it was still like, it was like the second week of school and there was a back-to-school night and all the parents had to fill out a form sitting at those tiny, teeny tiny desks with our knees up around our chin. And we had to write, what can we do to serve in the classroom? Like, well, you know, are we going to file papers or what? And I wrote, I can teach the kids to breathe. And I didn't, you know, I really honestly didn't think that would be taken up, that offer. And the next day the teacher emailed me and said, okay, can you do that? And I said, okay, I'll come in Friday. And then she said, wait, wait, I've got to run this by the school principal. And we have a fierce school principal. She is cool and sharp and tough as nails. And I thought, oh, here we go. It's one of the largest public school systems in the United States. I thought, No way. So the school, the principal said, well, if you're going to teach that 4th grade classroom mindfulness, then you have to teach the entire faculty first. And then, you know, once you do a program with us, then you can teach in that classroom. And then I want to start spreading it out in assemblies to the whole school. Wow. I was so surprised. So that's what started it. That is shocking. So I didn't, I didn't You know, it was like filling out a form and I was shocked. And then once other schools started hearing about what we were doing in this school, they wanted it. So it started rolling out to different elementary schools. And then as my daughter moved up to middle school and then high school, I— so did mom. Mom moved right along with her. And yeah, so that's how that happened.

And then of course you were in the corporate world.

Yeah. And that was easy because that was a coming home. To where I, where I was and where I experienced pressure and pain and politics and, um, you know, anxious feelings and, and perfectionism and imposter syndrome and all the things that show up at work. I lived it all, and I lived it.

I have that list too. What? I have that same list.

Yeah, you know, here's the thing. So I, I— a lot of my clients are in professional services. That's where I really started because that's where I came from with Accenture. And I understand, you know, being billable and demanding clients and demanding internal bosses and all that. But then I, you know, I really went on to healthcare. I work with physicians. I'm doing a new project for resilience for healthcare now. And industries I've never been in and never walked in their shoes because the list is the list. Like you just said, you have the same list. And yeah, you know, we're human beings. So the working professional, you know, I get. And then being a mom, I do a lot of programs for parents because I'm a parent. And, um, I think that's the beauty, is when we have pain and suffering in our lives, it carves out a space that matches the amount of pain and suffering we've had, and that allows us to be compassionate and to tell stories from our lived experience. And, you know, as you know, you and I have chatted in our own relationship over time that I've had my fair share of challenge and, and suffering. You know, when I was 16, uh, in 11th grade, which my daughter has officially started today, I'm just realizing that. When I was in 11th grade, my dad died of a heart attack right in front of me, and that was completely unexpected. And even though I mentioned that he had a heart attack and I had to go in and tell him about the car, he looked great, you know, full head of dark hair, you know, you know, rock star rocket scientist at NASA, loved his work, you know, just— I didn't see it He was supposed to go back to work on Monday. On Saturday morning, he had a heart attack. And I tried to give him CPR. I learned that in the Girl Scouts. And, you know, the heart attack was massive and he didn't survive. And that trauma as a kid in high school of losing dad, you know, in front of me, with me, really was an event that shaped me. Shaped me and made me realize how fragile life is, even at, you know, a young age. You know, teenagers aren't usually thinking about that, but I was. I just couldn't believe that suddenly he's not here. Like, there's his den, there's his chair, there's his mechanical pencil, but he wasn't there anymore. And I started to really— that's when I started really getting into the human psychology part of life and why are some people stressed and others not, why are, why are some resilient and others not. So, and then when I went to college, I, I really started pursuing that and, um, studying it in depth and then started working at Accenture looking at that. And then when I, I moved out to San Francisco about 10 years after I met that engineer where I was learning and practicing mindfulness I was pregnant with my first and only child. That was a real journey, a hard journey to get pregnant. And I was 9 months pregnant and my brother Johnny, my soulmate, suddenly died. And he was, he was 37. So that was a real shock. And in the space of 3 weeks I had such, you know, incredible grief, like indescribable pain and the most exquisite joy. I tried for so many years to get pregnant and here I was holding a newborn and Johnny had just passed 3 weeks before. So that was powerful, you know, all the ways of, you know, that you don't expect to experience in your life. And then I lost, actually I lost 2 brothers And now, you know, now in 2020, I've lost my mom since then. So that was 7 years ago. So losing my mom and dad pretty young and my 2 brothers was really— I don't have adequate words to describe how hard that is. But I do know that sharpens and fuels the work I'm doing every day because for myself, but also for others. And that's why I teach this. That's why I have trouble saying no. I have a hard time saying no these days to an organization or company that wants me to speak. I was doing— I did a program for a nonprofit called Horton's Kids that are working with underprivileged, disadvantaged kids in Washington, D.C. And this was their company offsite. And it was that week. Like, I couldn't I couldn't say this another time. So I said yes. And so that's why I do it, because I've felt tremendous suffering and pain in my own life, and I know for sure, irrespective of all the evidence, that mindfulness, meditation, and training in self-compassion and compassion for others and knowing how to work with emotions like grief can transform your life. So it's transformed mine, and that's why I say yes. And that's, that's why I'm here with you right now. I wanted to take this time because I think these conversations are what share these practices and teachings with people.

So, yeah, I, I mean, I can— I'm right there with you. Everything you said, exactly. Yeah, to be honest, you know, I, I do really believe that these practices and understanding your brain and your emotions and your own body chemistry is something that everyone can use.

Yeah.

My, uh, biggest passion is I'm hoping to get it to kids at critical times in their life. Mm-hmm. So when their neurons are developing and there's very critical times. One is the mother themselves when they're pregnant or even before pregnancy. Right. And then the kids at certain ages, especially like right before middle school. End of middle school into high school, high school into college. I mean, their neurons are so plastic at that point, and what you learn, you keep, you know? And a lot of illnesses come up at that point in their lives. Like, if there's any, you know, massive anxiety or depression, that, that can rear its head in that, that age group. So I think it's so important to go back as far as you can go and hit those critical moments. And there's no reason why people shouldn't know this, right? Because it's really, like you said, it's all science-based now.

Yeah, I'm so glad you're doing this. I love how you laid that out, that at these critical times in, in the child's development, you're going to focus on those junctures for both parents and kids to really help them. I'm your number one fan in that work. Anything I can do to support you, because, oh, I've seen that in my own experience and my my, my daughter's life and her journey and her friends. It's really key. And it's easier when they're kids. It's easier when we have that higher degree of plasticity. So that's why I took my daughter out of school when she was, you know, in 4th grade. And I said what I wanted for my 50th birthday was a 5-week, you know, international trip with her. And one of those weeks was a week with at the Thich Nhat Hanh Monastery in Plum Village, France. So we did that again. So I just keep bringing her back. But it's for that reason, just to immerse her in the field, in the community, and have her learn the practices and the songs and all the walking and the body practices and just keep bringing her back. Keep bringing her back. That's wonderful.

That's amazing.

It's going to be wired in her Yeah, so I'm really glad you're doing that. Yeah, yeah. I, I mean, yes, and I can feel like this, you know, this unease bubbling up in me while you're saying that because it's absolutely wired in her. And at the same time, I'm aware of just the, you know, the, the phones and TikTok and Instagram, Snapchat, and oh yeah, this, you know, Netflix, just this new world our teens are in, that we don't know the outcome of all that. And so I'm so aware of all the things being wired in right now. And I'm just, I'm just, you know, my prayer is that, that the meditation and being in nature and dancing to music with mom in the kitchen, all of that, you know, hiking with her dad, all the things she loves to do will offset all the other things that are getting wired in.

Ah, no, it's all, it's all going in there. It's all going in there. But like you said, you said there are those sensitive times and it's easier. I'm gonna tell you one quick story. Like I had a student who was in middle school and she was so nervous to go to middle school. It was her first day in 6th grade and she disappeared and they had to call the police. Wow. And they eventually found her reading by herself in the local like cafe right next to the school. And I said, I told the mom, I said, just bring her to my class. I'm starting a, a group class. She came for 8 weeks. Her mom told me she did all of the practices. Wow. And she never had an issue again. She's off to college now. Oh. And the reason I tell you this story is because I think it's so much easier when you catch them earlier when when they're setting those neuronal connections. But kids— I actually have had real success with teaching parents. Oh, good. That who then do the exercises with the kids. So that's the other way.

Oh, I'm so glad you're doing that. I think that's key is teaching parents.

So I could talk to you forever.

I know. I love when we get together.

Yeah, we're going to get together more. It's so great. You have been This has been so amazing, and thank you so much for your time. And if you would like to stay and guide, I will put this meditation up. Great. Are you okay? Are you, are you tired?

Yeah, but that's what re-energizes me.

All right, so I'm gonna sit back and meditate with you. I'm gonna stop this recording.

Thank you so much for listening. If you have any questions for me or any of my guests, please email it to podcast@mindbodyspace.com. I'll be answering your questions on Thursdays on this podcast, and also let us know if you have any topics or guests that you'd like to suggest. Tune in tomorrow for the special mindfulness guided meditation on uncertainty with Laurie Cameron. Until then, this is Dr. Juna signing off, wishing you and your loved ones wellness.