Putting College Admission Stress in Perspective with author Jacques Steinberg

Hello and welcome to Top Down Brain Rx Chill Pill Podcast, a podcast that boosts your resilience just by listening. Resilience is about bouncing back from setbacks by adapting and learning so you can thrive through life's challenges. Your time is precious, so I work to deliver research-backed tools to boost you and your family's resilience. Each of the episodes strive to leave you with an action or meditation prescription that you can apply immediately to your life. I'm Dr. Juna Bobby MD, a board-certified physician and mom of two amazing kids, and my purpose is to make the neuroscience of wellness accessible to you and your family's everyday life. Because when I became a mom, I wanted to do everything possible to empower my children with healthy mental and physical habits. This wasn't something that I had growing up, so I had to learn how to create a healthy and happy home life. I'm definitely not aiming for perfection, but I can honestly say that the mind-body skills I learned transformed my family's life. After years of training, I fully transitioned into teaching mind-body medicine, leaving one of the most prestigious private practices in New York City so I could dedicate my time to creating and teaching the science of resilience. My almost decade-long experience teaching high-performing students of all ages have now led me to the creation of my newest courses, Plan to Soar, and Soar Under Pressure. To make these tried-and-true courses widely accessible, I'm rolling them out with partnering schools, organizations, and online for individuals on mindbodyspace.com. A portion of all proceeds go to those students in need. Today I have Jacque Steinberg, the author of The College Conversation, a practical companion for parents to guide their children along the path to higher education. Jacques Steinberg is a college admissions expert and Eric Furda, his co-author, is an Ivy League dean. So the authors, instead of adding to all the books on how to get into college, they decided to write a step-by-step approach to having tough conversations around this topic with less stress and more success. Jacques is a New York Times bestselling author and an award-winning New York Times journalist whose knowledge and passion for college access equity, affordability, readiness, and success has most recently led to roles as a senior leader, communication strategist, advisor, and board member for several national nonprofit organizations. Hey, Jacques, how are you? Thank you so much for being here today.

Juna, it's a pleasure to be with you.

Thank you. I'm so excited to have you talk to us today about your newest book because you are a veteran author. And you're a New York Times bestselling author, which I already spoke about in your introduction, but you have a new book out. It's called The College Conversation, and you wrote it with Eric Furda, who was a former admissions officer at UPenn, right?

Yes. So Eric is the former Dean of Admissions at the University of Pennsylvania and the former Executive Director of Admissions at Columbia University. And he's just, in addition to being a fabulous person and professional, just a tremendous resource. And so the subtitle of the book is A Practical Companion for Parents to Guide Their Children Along the Path to Higher Education. So Eric and I teamed up to create a series of conversation starters and exercises for parents as well as adults and other mentors in a young person's life to sort of be there of support to them at each step in this process that, of course, you and I have both gone through firsthand with our own children, um, as well as—

I still have one to go.

Yes, you do. And, uh, and, and also, um, of course, uh, as applicants ourselves. And so we wanted to be helpful to— in whatever situation someone was in, but particularly trying to imagine someone who, unlike you and I, um, not only hadn't gone through this with a child before, but maybe hadn't gone through this as an applicant themselves. Maybe that child was a first-gen college applicant. So we imagined every scenario and tried to just provide ways that parents and other adults and kids could just talk about this process, which is, of course, so anxiety-producing and so bewildering. And it doesn't necessarily have to be.

Mm-hmm. And I hope to talk to Eric one of these days also.

I think he would enjoy that.

Yeah, that would be great. So the book is really for anyone, right, at any point What age group are you aiming— is this book meant for? So how old are the kids when the parents should pick up this book?

So it's obviously very personal and tailored to your family, but—

When you're pregnant?

We certainly don't want elementary school parents to pick it up.

Okay, good to know.

Our professional belief as co-authors, Eric and I, is that for elementary school kids, "Take this book, put it on the shelf." Depending on your child, some of these early conversations can start in middle school in terms of preliminary, but they certainly don't necessarily have to. The process, of course, really starts to gear up beginning in the sophomore year of high school and then in earnest in the junior year. But for a child who wants to talk about this late in middle school, or including someone who wants to aim for something really competitive or specialized, particularly those academic decisions that are made on courses between 8th and 9th grade, they can be a factor, particularly for a kid who's interested in something like engineering. And so not a must-have, but those early conversations can start then. I guess the cop-out answer is that it depends on you and your child and their sensibility. But as we talk about in the preface of the book, we imagine a parent picking this up late in middle school or early in high school.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I guess I would have to add to that, you know, having been through this with a child who had a special gift of music that he started very early in music. And I'm not saying that this book is geared towards that, but I do think that it behooves a parent to actually notice if their child has a certain gift or certain propensity or are drawn to something. And that could start as early as elementary school, you know?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, so there's the difference between the college conversation and sitting down with your third grader and saying, okay, let's start your list.

What I mean is like by fifth, sixth, seventh, middle school, we had to pretty much decide whether he was gonna continue sports or not. That kind of thing we did have to, you know, plan out a little bit. So I guess that's a little different from what you're talking about in this book, which is basically just practical aspects of getting ready and having these choices, right? Like, there's so many choices.

Yeah, and certainly the book, it talks about academic life and intellectual interests and inside the classroom, but it spends quite a bit of time on outside activities and in particular gifts and talents and passions. And to your point, For a lot of kids, we see elementary, middle school in terms of activities outside the classroom as a period of sampling, of trying things on. What do you think? Is it sports? Is it music? Is it the visual arts? Is it something else? It's a sampler, and doing it for the sheer sort of joy of experiencing it. But we also say in the book, to your point, that there comes a time, particularly I think in that transition from middle school to high school for some kids, younger kids as you say, where sometimes some choices have to be made. Look, there's only so much time and there are lots of objectives and things to accomplish. And of these activities you're doing, which are the ones you want to focus on and why? We do sort of facilitate that conversation as well. In addition to building up some expertise and perhaps some leadership, first and foremost, that it's enjoyable, that it's satisfying, that it's engaging. And you and I are talking about sports and arts. Let's not forget community service.

Yeah, that's big.

And community engagement and making time to give back to your community in some way and to others. Again, not because you think it's going to impress Eric Furda, but because it's the right thing to do and it also feels good.

Yeah. But then again, I have to add, I'm going to be the devil's advocate that it doesn't always feel good and you're not always going to love things, especially if you're doing something at a higher level. Right?

Yeah. No, that is a fair point. Please, throughout this conversation, be the devil's advocate. There is no, there is absolutely no one-size-fits-all to this process.

And also when you get to a certain level of doing something extracurricular, I mean, there's always going to be that point where you're like, I don't want to do this. I have too much to do. And, you know, and that's when that grit comes in where you have to kind of stick it out. And you do have to tell your kids, you know, you're not going to enjoy every minute of it.

Absolutely.

I guess we already touched on this, but we were going to talk about holistically. You believe in the whole child. Holistic method, which is awesome. When do you actually think you should start thinking about it then? And I know one size does not fit all, but if you're looking at a top-tier school, um, what— when would you start looking?

Yeah, and, and so what I, I love that your use of the word holistic, you know, sort of whole person, whole child, because, um, it maps nicely to the admissions process. So ultimately A young person who applies to college is going to be evaluated, considered in, in all kinds of ways, you know, almost a mosaic of, of sort of representations of who they are. Some of them are grades, some of them are test scores, some of them are activities, um, what you write in an essay, what your teachers and counselors say about you. And that is known as the holistic admissions process, and it, it also maps to the, the holistic approach to sort of looking at a young person. So now we're shifting to actually beginning the college process, and in the book Eric and I talk about what we see as sort of 5 basic phases of conversation between young person and adult, and they are self-discovery, search, the application, the decision, which is both the colleges make decisions and then you as a family make decisions, and then really, really important, as again, you know firsthand, as do I, transition through the end of the first year of college. So what period of time does that arc take? I mean, certainly we want those conversations to begin no later than junior year. But for that child who wants to get going and is looking forward to looking at colleges Maybe checking out some colleges the spring of 10th grade or the summer of 10th grade. Know your kid. Is that going to be overwhelming and stressful to them, or do they have the emotional maturity to start embarking on that process? We try to provide some guardrails and ways to have that conversation to make those determinations together.

What do you think about the idea of, you know, nurturing that whole child first and then really leaving choosing and making that list till very late? Because that's kind of the approach I was taking. What do you think about that approach? You know, I'd rather the child match the school than, for me personally, than to look at a whole bunch of schools and try to fit into a mold of a school that, you know, you might choose to be the one?

It all depends on your child, and I hope that answer isn't a cop-out, but Eric and I have a series of exercises that we sort of suggest you as a family go through, either your child in conversation with you if they like, or in conversation with a peer or another adult or counselor or teacher. But regardless, to your point, we think there is some groundwork that should be undertaken well before the building of a college list and then getting on the road to take a list and look. So for example, in the self-discovery phase, we have an exercise we call the Five I's, which is really just sort of having your child, if they're game, sort of look within and try to sort of articulate to themselves and hopefully to you or others what is their identity, sort of how do they see themselves, How do others see them? You know, in terms of intellect, how do they approach the acquisition of knowledge? Is that something that they find exciting and engaging and rewarding? Do they sort of lose track of time when they do research and read? You know, ideas is the third C. What do you think about, and what are some of the opinions you hold dear? Interest— what do you like to do with your free time? Inspiration— what motivates and moves you? Whom do you admire? And so that there's nothing in that exercise that has anything to do with getting in the car and going to look at fill-in-the-blank college. Similarly, there's a follow-up exercise which we call the 4 Cs, which are now— it's the attributes of the colleges. Now you're getting a little bit closer. Now that you've got that hopefully knowledge of yourself, what about the colleges? What's the culture at that institution? What's its history and mission? How does it resonate with your child, you know, as a potential applicant today? How has that mission evolved over time and representative on campus? The second C is curriculum. You know, beyond just majors and programs or even whether certain courses are required, what's the design and aim of the courses that your child might take over 4 years? 4 years. Really important, C, is community. You know, who are the people who make up the campus and what do they value? What's the vibe? How competitive is it? And then finally, conclusions, which is like what happens to kids when they graduate? Do they go on to grad school? Do they graduate? There are some colleges in this country where fewer than half of the kids graduate in 6 years.

Oh my goodness.

If you can believe it. And, and those data points are knowable. So not only do they graduate, do Do they go on to grad school? Do they go on to the job market? And not unimportant, were they happy with their experience at that institution? And the fifth C, of course, is cost. And that's a big one that we think families should talk about early because for some families, it's not a luxury to indulge all these other Cs, that cost is going to be determinative. So our feeling in the college conversation is that exercises like these, whenever they are undertaken, but certainly no later than the junior year ideally, will prepare students and families for the process of them starting to assemble a list, including in consultation with counselors, and then ultimately, setting about to visit. And with any luck, as the pandemic continues to recede, more and more of those visits can be in person.

Yeah, thank you. That's pretty comprehensive. And I think we are on the same page. You do stress development of yourself first, you know, and then to look.

And development of yourself for the sake of developing yourself. I mean, we have a basic philosophy philosophy in the book, which is that all these things are an end of themselves.

Of course.

And if they're all being done, again, to impress an admissions officer or get in, then that would be sort of narrow. What if those activities were rewarding, engaging, those courses in and of themselves, and in the process one learned enough about oneself as a young person that they could start to think about how they could leverage that experience in a higher education setting.

And of course, try to get into the school that you want to go to. They can have all those ands. It doesn't have to be an and/or.

Certainly not. To your point, if as part of these exercises, at no point in the process thus far have we talked about, you know, talking about specific schools, but if in the course of these exercises, hey, I'm looking for a really sort of selective, prestigious, you know, institution that, uh, that just— that happens to have a, a very, uh, low admission rate, then, um, you know, doing things like making sure that you're challenging yourself in your curriculum, um, not necessarily maxing out, uh, to the point that you end up hospitalized, of course, but that there's evidence that, you know, you are seeking out, you know, at least some rigorous academic experience in your high school and challenging yourself and being successful in that setting. So—

I mean, I laugh, but honestly, what you said is kind of sad, but it's true. If you are— if you're pushing yourself beyond your limits, then even if you get to that place, maybe it's not the place for you, right? Because then it's not going to be your match.

I agree. And, and, but also for a number of years, um, the admissions process at highly selective privates emphasized, you know, max out on that rigorous curriculum, just as— just vacuum up as many of those APs as your high school offers, and The messaging is a little different now. It's, you know, let's see evidence that you seek out a challenge academically and that you can do well in those settings. But, you know, we are not looking, they will tell you, for foot on the pedal to the floor, 100 miles an hour every day for 4 years. That they realize that, you know, there's a book called The Stressed Years of Our Lives, and it's just about all the anxiety and other mental health issues that are experienced by this cohort, both in, in high school and in college. And the admissions offices are seeing those books too, and hopefully are conveying, you know, be sure to find moments, take that foot off the gas for your own well-being.

So high-achieving teenagers are now a risk category for depression and anxiety, in their own risk category now.

Yeah, and look, as with so much in admissions, a lot of this is confusing and contradictory. Hey, you're telling me that fill in the blank.

Thank you for saying that, contradictory.

Yeah, this, look, and you know, if you're talking about a college, that has an admission rate of less than 6%. That means that, you know, close to 95% of the kids who apply are not going to get in. I mean, how can that not be a source of stress for an applicant? I mean, I, I can understand it. But, um, if your child is able to build a balanced list with colleges of, uh, various degrees of selectivity, that most important, um, all of which appeal to them because they've done their homework and they can as best as possible without going and attending, can see themselves at those places, that can be a happier experience. And it's, it's really important to know that most of the colleges in this country accept almost everybody who applies, that, uh, that the average admission rate, uh, for colleges in this country is, is over 60%, 6-0%. But it's— I, I get it that there are, uh, young people who are very interested interested in those 4 dozen or so highly selectives that turn away far more applicants than they accept. And so the, you know, one of the keys is to be realistic and, and to have balance and flexible—

be flexible in your mind—

and flexibility, which is, you know, I would argue as a parent is, uh, you know, if you haven't learned that life lesson by then, um, maybe that's a good opportunity opportunity to do it. But, you know, you talked about contradictory. I would also say that, you know, nobody should enter into this admissions process thinking that it is fair. That's not— anybody who's being honest doing this work would never, you know, fair would not roll off the tongue. And that's because how could you possibly design a process that is fair? It ultimately depends on your definition of merit. And if your definition of merit is, you know, perfect scores on the SAT or ACT, that's great. Studies have shown that those exams can favor students whose, whose parents are well-educated, who come from high socioeconomic backgrounds. And as we learned during this pandemic, it can favor kids who have access to, to the test, which is has not necessarily been easy this year. So, you know—

You mean cheating?

No, no, no. I mean, I'm talking about the pandemic.

Oh, you mean whoever got to take it. Yes, yes.

It was canceled. Yeah, there was huge economic disparities in who got to take it.

And also don't forget tutors.

So no, you know, how would you possibly define a process that's fair? Give it— because all of All of us have different definitions of merit. I mean, I feel strongly that there be a part of this process that acknowledges young people whose families, whose parents didn't go to college and who didn't have those advantages and who— there has to be a way for them to not necessarily have to go head to head with those kids who had every advantage. And so is it fair? No. Is it comprehensive? Broad, I think in many ways it is. It's certainly not perfect, but it does take account of, as we've discussed, that whole child, that holistic sort of rendering of who a child is, and it does give them the floor to make their case for admission.

So that whole child picture that they get, I was going to ask you about this. So, you know, obviously somebody who's been excelling at many different things over the last 4 years of high school and, and probably middle school, they develop sort of an application where they have letters of recommendation and grades and extracurriculars, and they can make a whole picture of that person. Is that how they, you know, I mean, how, how much can they tell? Because obviously it's on paper and you can look good on paper and like, you said, if you're taking every single AP and just pushing yourself to the brink and doing all your extracurriculars, but there's that kid who is pushing themselves to do that, and then there's the child who does that easily and it comes so natural to them. So how does the admissions process distinguish those two people?

I used the metaphor before of thinking of that portrait as almost like a mosaic. Imagine that stained glass window. And with the sun, you know, the light coming through it and the different pieces of that mosaic and how they come together to make a piece of art. And that's the college application. It's that transcript with 4 years of grades and a sense of what those courses were and how you did in them. It's what your college counselor says about you. It's what two of your teachers say about you, it's what you say about yourself in an essay. And in that essay, which is one of my favorite parts of the process as a writer— Mm-hmm. Who are you? What do you value? Why? What are those experiences that sort of made you who you are? What do you hope to accomplish while you're in college? What do you hope to get from that experience? What do you hope to bring to that experience? And yes, what activities do you do and why and at what level? To what extent are you a contributor to your community and how? That's a pretty robust portrait of a young person. And the essay in particular and those teacher recommendations can really sort of help someone come alive. But then, you know, you mentioned that I've written other books and my first My first book 20 years ago was called The Gatekeepers, where I spent a year watching the admissions office at Wesleyan University admit a class. And I saw a process that was really fascinating. It was the people doing this work are so dedicated and they care so much about access and they're so aware of the precious sort of gift that they have in their possession, which is access to a higher education and all that can mean for a young person. And so they look at all those elements of that young person, and then they look at the community they are trying to build in their institution. And so they want that first-year class to be almost utopian. I mean, first of all, very practically, they need a cellist in the orchestra. They need a second base person. They need reporters for the newspaper, mercifully. They need kids, as they see it, from all over the country and all over the world, and kids from backgrounds that are the first in their family to go to college and others who may have been fortunate to be part of families that have gone to institutions for generations. And so they're looking for specialists and generalists and high flyers and maybe kids that had no small number of disadvantages but managed to overcome those. And so it's really, really messy, but every applicant gets the floor to make the case. And then these choices become, of course, imperfect. If it's at one of those institutions where the admission rate is in the single digits, of course they could fill their class class several times over with outstanding kids who would maximize that experience and do well with it. This is a really precious resource, at least at those highly selectives, and, um, there's only going to be room for so many. That process of selection is going to be most certainly imperfect and unfair, but it will be thorough and comprehensive. And, and young people and their families should know that these applications are read. It's It's not a case of, you know, that they put them all, you know, print them out and throw them down the stairs and whoever's application goes far, they're winners.

And they don't put it through a sieve of just scores and GPAs.

No, no, no, no.

That's great to know.

Particularly at the privates, at the private institutions, there are not cutoffs in part because for those students who do submit a standardized test score in these times where, at least temporarily, those scores are often optional because of a lack of access to the test. The score of a young person who has had arguably every advantage, you know, it says on the application that parents have advanced degrees and they look at zip codes and they do make some assumptions, fair or not, versus a student a student who clearly is coming from a community that is not college-going and who is representing in the application that their parents didn't go to college, um, that, uh, you know, in, in a case like that, a test score would be evaluated differently.

So they do wait the test scores, kind of?

They— I wouldn't say wait. I would say they look at them in context.

That's nice.

And, um, and they make certain assumptions. Hey, I assume you're from this zip code and And we're going to assume, given what you say your folks do, that there's probably been some coaching here. And maybe there hasn't, which is, again, unfair.

That's unfair, yeah.

But there's certainly going to be an expectation for students with every advantage, a hope— again, we're talking about there's a universe of more than 2,000 4-year colleges and many more community colleges. We are talking at this point about those 4 dozen or so. It's such a small constellation within that universe. But I understand that for, for many in your listenership, those are of interest. And, and so it's important to know that that's sort of how the process works.

And even more so with the articles coming out now saying that the top colleges are waiving whether you're going to submit your scores or not because of the pandemic. So it has opened up an increase in the number of applicants in general. So those numbers of acceptance have gone down even more.

Well, let's— so let's talk for a moment about test-optional admissions.

Yeah, that was my next question, actually.

And so if we were talking pre-pandemic, if we were having this conversation 2 years ago, I would say to you that of those more than 2,000 4-year colleges in this country, um, at that point in time, probably more than 1,000 did not require the SAT or the ACT for some applicants. Think about that for a moment. There were over 1,000 colleges in this country where you could build an amazing college list several times over and your child would not have to submit a standardized test score if they didn't want to. To. You know, I would probably encourage them to take the test as long as it wasn't too overwhelming an experience, because at least they would have that data point and that option, but they wouldn't have to submit it. And think about for those kids who don't like tests, who don't test well, who frankly, you know, who are in that sort of part of the test-taking universe that may not do well through no fault of their own but because of lots of external circumstances, um, it's possible to go through this process even then without submitting those test scores. Did that—

now, did that include like the top 50 schools that you're talking about?

It, it didn't include all of the 4 dozen or so most highly selective, but you would be surprised at those that were in there. So for example, Wesleyan University, where I spent my year as an observer for the Gatekeepers. In the time since I was an observer there, they have gone to test-optional admissions. You know, Mount Holyoke College, Muhlenberg College, Bates, Bowdoin, and Colby. These are just off the top of my head, but they are certainly— this was pre-pandemic.

Can they 100% trust that they will not be put in a different pile? Oh, this pile has no exam scores.

All I can tell your audience is that these institutions are adamant that when they say a standardized test score is optional and will not affect your, uh, your application if you don't submit a score, that that won't be held against you, that they mean it when they say it.

But if you submit an awesome score, it will work for you though. I mean, otherwise they wouldn't take any scores at all. I'm playing devil's advocate again.

Yeah, it's, it's the, the word is optional. So first and foremost, I belong to a professional organization called the National Association for College Admission Counseling, NACAC. It's an organization of more than 23,000 admissions professionals. And, and they've had petitions go around that schools that are test optional have signed and they've attested accepted, we will not hold it against you if you don't submit a score. Now, your question is slightly different. If your score is excellent, um, by lots of different measures— and there's lots of different measures of excellent, but let's assume that it's excellent— um, and, and you want to submit it at a test-optional institution, that institution has said they will consider that score as part of your application. So, um, so it could work for you. There is certainly the possibility that it can work for you. What, what really changed during the pandemic is that nearly every college that still required the SAT or ACT said during the pandemic, we are going test optional. There are so many kids having trouble accessing this. There are crazy stories of kids in one state, you know, flying halfway across the country or driving to take tests, um, risking their health. No, no one should risk their health or their family's health to take a standardized test to apply to college. And so all of those highly competitive selective schools, including the 8 institutions of the Ivy League, for the first time were test optional this year. And many institutions have already said though not all, but many have said for next, for next fall, so for the students who are currently juniors, um, that, that they will be test optional once again because, um, we're still not out of the woods with the pandemic and there are still inequities and, um, and issues.

What are the chances that they're going to do away with it? I mean, there's been talk about that over the years, right?

You know, I, I do believe that, uh, some institutions will make these policies, test optional policies, permanent. Will others seek to put the genie back in the bottle? We'll see. I mean, the colleges will tell you, some of them will tell you, that it's a helpful piece of data in, in sort of putting a young person in context and also in predicting perhaps how they might do in the first year. So there are some institutions students who like them, these standardized tests. There are others that, where, you know, this will be probably the end of the road for required tests.

I have a hypothetical question for you. There's a lot of kids who have done something very intensely before the pandemic, for example, dance or music or sports, and then maybe over the pandemic, they were, they had to isolate or they were just not able to to continue at the same degree or same level that they were participating before, and maybe they had some second thoughts about it. What do you think about switching tracks in your junior year and moving on to something different, or, you know, withdrawing or quitting something that you've been doing for many, many years, let's say, at a very, very, very high level? Do you think that that would affect you, or would you say like stick it out if you can, or would you say, you know, let's do real soul searching and see what it means to you and why you're, why you're changing? I, I like both of those answers, so maybe you can weigh in on which one you like better.

Well, there's— so I would separate it into two parts. The first is, you know, I, it's a natural question for many people in your audience, particularly those who are parents of juniors. What is an admissions officer going to think of fill-in-the-blank extracurricular development as a result in part of the pandemic? So let's set that aside for a second. All kinds of activities have been interrupted and momentum lost and inability to do things as a result of the pandemic. And to your point, I'm sure in many instances it's, hey, wow, now that I'm not doing that, I kind of like that I'm not doing that. Or, gosh, I lost so much ground in fill-in-the-blank sport, I worry about being able to get back to where I was. But as you say, maybe this was a moment for reflection. So I think the more important question is for parents and other adults to work with young people to sort of ask those questions and frame them and let them know that interests change and people change and priorities change. And are you doing this for the right reason, whatever that might be, or is there something else sort of underneath it? But first and foremost, thinking of it in that context. Then after having that conversation, think about Well, what— this is an admissions process that, at least prior to this year, has prioritized activities outside the classroom. And the reassuring thing I can say to your audience is that these admissions officers live in the same world we live in. They know that life in every way got paused for the last 12 months and that students' ability to do activities outside the home and in school suffered terribly. Whatever your story, um, whatever happened, uh, whatever you weren't able to do, whatever you chose to no longer do, um, I, I would say there's going to be understanding. And, and just the sort of communicating and messaging of that is going to be critical. Also, if you had that soul-searching moment, um, that you no longer wanted to do X, um, did, did you pivot and, and pick up Y? And, uh, and, and And how did that experience go? And what did you learn about yourself? And so it's all sort of what you take away from it. But there are a number of families, particularly parents of juniors, that are worried about extracurriculars. And I would say, at least as far as the college process is, the colleges get it. And you'll be able to tell your story, as will, you know, your child will be able to, as will their counselor.

I love what you said because First, it's about the person and, you know, what their experience is and why they're changing or pivoting. And then there is that, you know, added dimension of what did you pick up or what did you find out about yourself, you know? So, one thing ends, another thing begins.

You know, it's like these kids' brains and sensibilities, they're growing and they're changing and they're learning and they're having experiences. That are helping them reevaluate, as you say, you know, wow, I thought at age 12 that I wanted to do this. When I'm 37 now, I don't think I want to do that at all. And so there's—

or in my case, at age 45.

Yeah. And so it's— I think these admissions officers understand the teenage brain and the teenage sensibility, and that this is all about, you know, sort growth and maximizing gifts and talents and engagement, and that that's a moving target. And any admissions officer who didn't sort of get that, you know, I'm not sure that that's an institution that your child would want to be at. But I can assure you, knowing these folks, having been talking to them for over 20 years, they're all about the understanding of a young person and growth and —That's good to know.

—Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it's a self-selecting group that does this work.

—That sounds like amazing work. I would love to do that work. Okay, so let's recap.

—Really sort of intentionally as families taking a number of big steps back. What are the goals of this process for your child? What do you and they think success looks like? Where do they want to be you know, with the hope that they will feel sort of happy and fulfilled, and that those sorts of questions asked at the front end can yield, you know, a very, very happy outcome at the end, with the expectation that this process is doable if families sort of keep perspective and, to use your word, keep flexibility as well.

Through the entire process, all I did was look up stories of people who succeeded and, you know, in many different definitions of success, right, their happiness, and showed my kids, like, where they went to school. Definitely not everybody went to the top schools, you know, and that was what I emphasized all the time. And I always, even to the end, said, you know, it really doesn't matter where you end up. It's just what's right for you. But of course, on the other hand, I do encourage, you know, competition and going for what you really want for yourself. So go for it. But then if things don't work out exactly the way you want it to or plan it to be, then that's where that resilience and that adaptability comes in. Yeah, I, I think you can do both.

This doesn't have to be an either-or. And again, families are going to go Families are going to go through the exercises that we have in the book, and young people are going to find themselves, some of them with a list hopefully balanced, but with some sort of aspirational reach schools. There are fabulous experiences to be had at those and many of those 2,000 four-year colleges and universities. But ultimately, wherever you go, what are you going to do with that experience as a a young person. How are you going to take advantage of it? How are you going to grow and learn and learn about yourself and position yourself for success in life? That what you do with where you are is, is arguably more important than where you are.

Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much for your time, Jacques. I am so excited to have this conversation, and I'm so grateful that You and Eric Furda wrote this book, The College Conversation.

Thank you, Jacques. Thank you, Juna Bobby MD.

Great questions. Jacques Steinberg is a college admissions expert, and Eric Furda, his co-author, is an Ivy League dean. And you can find out more about the book and about Jacques on jacquessteinberg.com, and the link will be in the show notes. You can shape the content of this podcast by letting me know what topics or questions you'd like to have addressed. Just go to mindbodyspace.com/podcast to opt in. When you opt in, you'll get extras from episodes like cheat sheets, worksheets, and special tips just for our newsletter subscribers. You'll also get information on our neuroscience-powered planner and online courses, Plan to Soar and Soar Under Pressure, for kids, parents, and educators. Please share this podcast with anyone who believes in the science of scientific method and are curious about natural ways to boost performance, health, mental and physical resilience for themselves or their kids. Thank you so much, and until next time, this is Dr. Juna Bobby MD wishing you and your family wellness.