Q&A with Angela Duckworth author of Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance

Welcome to the Top Down Brain Podcast, where you can boost your resilience with research-backed tools to stress less and be happier as you move toward your highest potential. Resilience, the ability to bounce back from life's challenges faster and higher, is a skill that you can learn and practice. The episodes fall into 3 subcategories: Highest Potential, where you're going to get evidence-based tips from my monthly conversation with Fiona Murden, an award-winning author and Chartered UK Organizational Psychologist. Optimize Me, where you'll get cutting-edge practices for best health and peak performance from mind-body and lifestyle medicine. And Take a Chill Pill episodes will guide you through a relaxation response, an antidote to chronic toxic stress, so that you can soar under pressure. I'm Dr. Juna Bobby MD. I'm a board-certified physician and a mom of two amazing kids. 10 years ago, I left one of the most prestigious medical practices in Manhattan to dedicate my career to teaching the science of resilience to students who are curious about accelerating change in their own minds and lives for peak performance and wellness. My experience teaching high-performing students of all ages at Juilliard Pre-College, NYU, Columbia, and many other organizations have led me to the creation of my newest digital courses, Plan to Soar, Soar Under Pressure, and Top-Down Resiliency Training, for individuals and organizations, and the great reviews are rolling in. Sign up for more info at toptownbrain.com. A portion of all proceeds go to those students in need. Welcome back. This is the Q&A part of the 3-part series with Angela Duckworth, founder and CEO of Character Lab, a nonprofit whose mission is to advance scientific insights that help children thrive. I'm so excited to have had this opportunity to interview her, not just once, but twice. And again, due to technical problems, it made sense to split it up into 3 parts. I have some questions from parents for you. So we have one from a mom physician, and she says, "There are some parts of my life where I had grit, but now I feel like they're kind of fading. Is there any way to get it back?" And then she added, "I hope this is not a dumb question." And I said, "Absolutely not," because Angela has a podcast called No stupid questions.

No stupid questions. No, I actually really think this is a great question. I had dinner once with a surgeon who said, "I have been gritty, but I feel like I'm not gritty now. What's going on? Is it possible to lose my grit? Is it possible to get it back?" I think for every characteristic about yourself, like you consider yourself talkative, energetic, whatever you are, absolutely there can be ebbs and flows. And again, this brings us back to the context, the situation. I think very, very often those have to do with what's going on around you as opposed to some internal thing, which is going up and down. And, um, when you feel like, huh, I'm not my usual gritty self, or why am I not gritty now? You might ask like, what is it about your situation that is not bringing out your, um, you know, your passion and your perseverance? And, and, um, burnout, for example, is like a real phenomenon. And I think burnout, which is the experience of, in a way, it's like the opposite of grit, right? Like you're, you're, strangely feeling helpless and disengaged and like hopeless and just exhausted, right? Um, it's, it's not about you. You're not the problem. I mean, most often it's like you're in a situation which is not allowing you to find any return on your effort. So I wouldn't beat yourself up, which I spent a lot of my life doing, like beating myself up, feeling bad about myself. I would say like, ask yourself like, what is it about this situation which isn't working for me? Um, and hopefully that leads to, um, other good questions.

I love that. Yeah, reflecting and asking yourself questions, that's always so important when we're trying to get unstuck. Okay, great. So the next question is from a dad, and he's actually reading your book, "Grit," right now.

Okay.

And his question is, how do you teach a kid to get more grit, especially to a kid who doesn't seem naturally gritty?

Just recently, Al Bandura, who is the most cited researcher, psychologist anyway, in, in history, he's at Stanford, he's in his 90s, he sent me an article which I think is a good answer for this question. So it's really important that you as a parent set up a graded succession of increasingly difficult challenges, but starting with really doable ones. So what great coaches and teachers and parents do is that they look at this kid and they say, like, okay, where are they now? And then they set that kid up for, like, a just manageable challenge. And then once they get to that challenge, like, you know, for example, somebody wants to run a marathon and they're a couch potato, right? You don't say, like, we'll start with a half marathon, right? Like, start with a 5K. You probably start with, like, let's take a walk around the block. And you have to set up a challenge which, like, the kid is like, I don't know if I could do that, but then they do. And what Al Bandura was trying to emphasize in his correspondence with me is that We need mastery experiences. You know, pep talks on their own don't work. So don't, you know, waste time like just trying to like give your kid a pep talk. Set up a small challenge. You don't even have to tell them like, hey, by the way, this is a really small challenge. I'm like working on a graded set of challen— I think that was like excellent advice, and that is based on a lifetime of his research.

That's really awesome advice. And by the way, I would be the parent that tells my kid that I'm working on a graded set of challenges. So I guess it depends on if your kids are interested or not, or if they want to know the science behind it. Sometimes that really helps to know the science.

Yeah. Also depends on how old they are.

And now that brings me to my next question, which was, is grit genetic? Are there cultural differences to grit?

Yes and yes, right? So it's a great question, and I think we can say definitively that it's not nature versus nurture. It's nature and nurture in, by the way, infinitely complex ways that I can't even start to unpack here with any satisfaction. But yeah, your DNA from your biological mom and your biological dad definitely set you up for certain tendencies. And, you know, there are people who are born, like, you know, with the tendency to be gritty and also extroverted and also everything, you know, everything about you. It's also nurture though, because your experiences absolutely shape you. And one of the most exciting discoveries I think in science is that your personality is never totally set. Your character is never totally fixed. And so people do become, for example, generally like with life experience, they actually become more kind and more considerate and more dependable, more emotionally stable. And so that, that's kind of proof that like it can't just be fixed at birth. I'm sure that one of your motivations for even having a podcast is to like through conversation, like help people learn a little bit. And maybe direct that change in ways that they want.

Yes, yes.

You know, when I think about the things that I value from my cultural heritage, I'm glad that there was such an emphasis on family and loyalty and education. The thing that I think my parents have struggled with a bit or had when they were raising us that I think many, many Asian families might also is like really giving our kids, like as you said, autonomy and allowing them to be their own person. So in my upbringing, it was almost like children were the extension of parents, kind of like your elbow or your wrist or your hand. And so the idea that your like elbow, your wrist, or your hand would wanna do their own thing was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I, I'm in charge here. Right. And I think like when I decided not to go to medical school, um, my dad was like devastated and angry. Um, and I think like, For my own children, like, I don't want them to feel like they are an extension of me. I want them to feel like they're their own people and, you know, they have to make their own way. So that's something that I am glad that my parents left China and came to a country where, you know, there's much more respect for the autonomy of young people in general.

But nowadays, some of the kids are super influenced by their parents.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I know we like to talk about, you know, in the negative way sometimes some people like to talk about, but also there was so much that I benefited from, um, from my parents. And parents are also works in progress. Like, you know, people like to tell stories about their parents, but don't have a fixed mindset about your parents either. Like, they're, they're still growing up no matter how old they are. Yes, yes, I love that.

I always tell my kids that I'm always— I'm still growing up.

I totally agree. Yeah.

So the next and final question is from a parent of tweens and teens. She asks, how do you instill grit and self-motivation and work ethics in these trying times with the pandemic and all of the challenges that came along with it?

You know, the pandemic is so hard for teenagers for a few reasons. Look, it's hard for all of us, let's be honest. But, you know, teenagers, one thing is that like they are during a very impulsive stage of human development. So the impulses that teenagers have to do things that are immediately gratifying, to be like sometimes a little risky, Like, it's stronger during those adolescent years than, like, any other time of life. And then they have all the other burdens that, you know, like, you know, who wants to be on Zoom calls for 10 hours a day? And, like, that's their life. So there's lots of reasons that they're struggling. The last one I want to mention is that the kind of geographic and, like, temporal, like, landmarks where, like, when you're in your classroom, you know, it's like a queue. You're, like, you're in class physically at a desk in a school. School, like, okay, you can pay attention to the teacher, even that's not easy, but just in your bedroom, on your bed, in your pajamas, like suddenly—

I don't know if they're listening, but the schools do ask the kids not to be on their phones.

Oh, well, there you go. I think that's actually good advice. You actually, I think you should do, okay, so here's my advice. So first of all, I understand that teenagers are struggling, like, of course they are. What can they do about it? I do think trying to recreate some of the cues that help us, like, getting out into the physical sunshine in the morning, during the day, so they're not like completely off. Like, you know, they need some cues. Like, they also should get dressed for school. Like, I don't think it's a good thing to just like be in your pajamas in your bed all day and then like just try to mentally be like in school mode. The other thing I would say is that, you know, they really do need, I think, some form of like socialization, social, not socializing, not socialization, like, And then depending on where you are and what's safe, but like if kids could in safe distanced ways wearing masks, like see each other outside, I think that would be really healthy. And so in a way, it's not just like about solving for like, well, they're not doing their homework, they're procrastinating. You have to solve for the whole child, right? And all of their needs. And if you find that they're getting fresh air, they're getting exercise, their sleep is okay, they're not on screens all the time, they're using all these cues, I think that will make the thing that you might imagine is the first thing to work on, schoolwork, et cetera, like that, that will come easier.

Okay. So get some regular physical cues like getting dressed and showered, going for a walk.

Physical cues are amazing. Right. And, and, um, I'm used to working all day in my pajamas. Honestly, I couldn't, couldn't tell the difference between like what I wear.

In your pajamas?

Well, I mean, my clothes are all like these like stretchy yoga clothes, so it's like I wear them to bed. But I'm used to that. I think for many people, whatever cue it is they need, you know, like whatever physical way that like, you know, many people think of life like Shakespeare said, you know, "All the world's a stage and each of us is players." Well, like part of being on stage is like having the right costume and the prop and everything. And so, you know, I think that using those cues to say like, "Oh, it's school." Like, and you know, "When does school over?" Like, you know, like just whatever it is, you know, is it the physical place you are? Is it like Is it a certain jacket you wear when you're— like, create that, the better.

Jeans are key. They're not boring. They're awesome. The structure is just key.

Mm-hmm. 100%.

Wow, Angela, this was so much fun. I am truly, deeply grateful that you spent your time with me today. I know you're so busy.

Thank you. Thank you. I thought these were great questions.

Oh my gosh. Wow.

Yeah. Well, yes.

Thank you so much. I mean, I really can't thank you enough. If I was in person, I would definitely be hugging you right now.

Virtual hug and virtual kiss. Thank you. Thanks so much. This has been a great— I learned a lot.

Oh my gosh. I just got goosebumps.

Learning's good.

Now that is feedback I'll take any day. Thank you so much for sending in these amazing questions. That was Angela Duckworth. Professor of Psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, who in 2013 was named a MacArthur Fellow, aka the Genius Grant. Her TED Talk is one of the most watched with over 25 million views. So if you haven't watched it already, highly recommend it. She's the author of Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance, a number one New York Times bestseller, and she also co-hosts No Stupid Questions podcast with Stephen Dubner. I'm so grateful to have had these conversations with her. I learned so much, and you can find out more about her at angela.duckworth.com. Go to topdownbrain.com to opt into our newsletter for extra tips and information on our neuroscience-powered planner and online courses for K-12 and beyond, parents and professionals. Please share this podcast with anyone who believes in the scientific method and are curious about boosting performance with mental and physical resilience for themselves or their kids. This podcast is separate from my role as faculty at the Juilliard Pre-College Division, and the contents of this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. Thank you so much, and until next time, this is Dr. Juna wishing you and your family wellness.