The Most Important Ingredient For Changing Our Habits Toward A Plant Predominant Diet with Dr. April Hirschberg

Having this deep sense of purpose on why you're choosing to eat healthy or why you're choosing plant-based, that could be the most useful tool in behavioral change.

Welcome to the Mind Body Space Podcast, where you can stress less and boost your performance and wellness down to the cellular level just by listening. Hi, I'm Dr. Juna Bobby MD, a mom MD passionate about sharing evidence-based tips to keep you and your family well. For the past 10 years, I've been teaching the science of resilience to high-achieving individuals at many different schools and organizations, and currently I'm on faculty at the Juilliard School Pre-College Division teaching gifted students how to stress less and perform at their best. I started this podcast because I wanted to share what I learned with my students, fellow parents, educators, and anyone who's interested as I explore fascinating topics like neuroscience and meditation with experts in education, medicine, and psychology. Your support makes this possible. Please subscribe and share with a family friend, anyone who needs to stress less, boost performance, performance and be happier. If you have questions for my guests or for me, or if you have a topic that you'd like us to cover, please head on over to mindbodyspace.com/podcast and ask away, and we will answer your questions on the podcast on the last Friday of every month. If you need a good night's sleep, head on over to my YouTube channel Fall Asleep Easy to drift off and sleep like a baby.

Hi April, how are you? So glad to see you again and This is our once-monthly Friday conversation about all things science of resilience, and I'm so excited to do this with you. And for those of you listening, if you have a question, you can send it in at mindbodyspace.com/podcast. And on that page, you can submit any questions for us and we will answer you best we can on the last Friday of the month.

Today we're going to be speaking about a really exciting topic, and I know both of us really think about it and care about it a lot. Ways in which we can choose the foods that we eat and impact both our physical health and mental health, as well as climate health. So it's a big topic.

Yeah. Lots of things to talk about. And we decided to talk about this topic because the last guest I had was Dr. Tom Robinson, a professor at Stanford Medical Center. He's a pediatrician. He's world-renowned for his research in preventing obesity. If you haven't listened to that episode, go ahead and listen to that. We're gonna talk around the topics that Tom and I talked about and go a little deeper into how we can apply some of the most important tools to change our behaviors towards healthy, and perhaps you can take away some tips that you can use right away. So another paper by Dr. Robinson was— is called Simple Dietary Substitutions Can Reduce Carbon Footprints and Improve Dietary Quality Across Diverse Segments of the US Population. And April and I are both board certified in lifestyle medicine, and that's one of the things that we talk about, that not only is going primarily plant-based great for our health, it is also great for the planet, right? So we wanted to talk a little bit about that. In my conversation with Tom, he spoke about how behavioral change can be so hard, and we all know it's very hard, right, to be able to go against the grain of what's out there for us on a day-to-day basis, like trying to choose healthy when you see those lab-grown foods that are scientifically made for us to want. To eat those foods. And he talked about the research behind how if you have faith, whether it's religion or something greater than yourself, that's what really seemed to change behavior much more so than, oh, I'm going to avoid cancer and diabetes and heart disease in the future, or I wanna live to 100 and be healthy and live my full life. He suggested that having this deep sense of purpose on why you're choosing to eat healthy or why you're choosing plant-based. That could be the most useful tool in behavioral change. So April, do you want to add something to what you think about planetary health and reducing our carbon footprint?

Well, I can speak first to the personal nature and also then to maybe a little bit of the science, but in a combination of the two, perhaps. I recall listening to the Lifestyle Medicine Conference in 2021, I guess it was, it was virtual. And I listened to some of the talks about, you know, the food choices that we make and trying to promote a more plant-predominant. There is a lot of compelling evidence to choose a plant-forward or a plant-predominant diet, and especially avoiding red meat and processed meats. So I think that to your point, for me anyways, it's always been learning about the science and listening to the science. And once you hear some of the things that red meat and processed meat do to our bodies. And therefore perhaps, and you know, obviously we talk a lot about me being a mom and you're a mom and, and then choosing what is offered to our kids at home. So it's like one thing when it's us, but it's another thing when it's our kids. So I've been vegetarian in the past, back in the day in college, and I, that's when I started not eating meat again.

And was that because—

That was thanks to that talk.

Was that also because you were concerned about animals and cruelty to animals? Because I know a lot of teenage girls especially start to go vegan because of what they, you know, what they feel is cruelty to animals. And certainly with processed meats, there's a lot of industrialization of raising farm animals.

Well, exactly. And actually, thank you for pointing that out, but I did read in college The Jungle. Have you read that book by Upton Sinclair? No, I have not. If you, well, you'll never eat sausage again if you read that book. So, um, so that's, uh, that's an interesting book. So that's, that is one of the reasons why I stopped eating meat back then. But again, once I started—

what does it say about sausage?

You don't, honestly, you don't really want to know. It's again, hopefully they've changed the way it's made.

Well, I stopped eating sausage and I stopped eating hot dogs because I knew that it was all different. Once I found out that it was all different parts of the animal and as well, that's basically it.

Yeah.

Not only that, but this is the part that grossed me out, was that the casing was the intestine, which obviously, you know, no waste. Right. So it's in that way, it's good. However, for me personally, I do not, and I have to say a lot of cultures eat tripe and that's great. I mean, Koreans eat tripe, Italians eat tripe, and I think that's also using every single part of the animal, which is a good thing, but for me, that turned me off.

Well, and what, that's what I was gonna say is that I think that if you eat meat from a farm that you know, and it's been raised in a way that's, you know, good for the animal and good for the people that are raising the animals, I think that that's a whole different story. That the Jungle, the book was a whole, you know, talking about mass-produced meat production. Important thing to know too is that meat does offer a lot of important protein and, you know, a way in which if people struggle with anemia, there's, you know, meat is important for certain people with certain diets. So I think that one thing we've learned, I know through lifestyle medicine and just medicine in general, is we can't make a recommendation for everyone. Everybody has unique dietary needs. Absolutely. And everything is individualized and specific to those people. So we never wanna do that. But one of the things that was really interesting about Dr. Robinson's paper and the work that he's done is that looking just at small, small switches or small swaps in our diet, you know, decreasing the red meat. But putting in chicken or turkey as just a small change, because we really do know that the, the red meat consumption is what is, um, not good for us physically and emotionally, but also not good for the planet because of the cost of the greenhouse, right? The greenhouse gases that they were destroying the rainforest.

I think there's also new studies coming out about other types of meat and they're still not great for us. So. That could be another conversation, but we could talk more about poultry and things like that in, in another, another conversation. I think that's also becoming a bit of a controversy on whether chicken is actually better for us or not, you know? So, but I wanna get back to your expertise, which you are a psychiatrist and you are interested in neuropsych— nutritional psychiatry. Can you tell us a little bit about that and how plant-based diets could help with psychiatric issues or mitigating, decreasing, you know, the rampant anxiety and depression we have today, or even preventing, right? People don't think about that.

Juna Bobby MD: Right. I think that one thing to think about, or one way in which, you know, we as humans can improve our physical health as well as our mental health is by eating more fruits and vegetables. Again, a more plant predominant diet, especially in the United States, we know that most people are not getting the adequate fruits and vegetables. And I know some people hear fruit and they think, oh, that's too much sugar. But, you know, really what we're asking people to do, T.H. Chan School of Public Health, Harvard School of Public Health, is really recommending that at least half of our plate is fruit and vegetables, which most Americans are not getting the required fruits and vegetables. So that's saying that by increasing fruits and vegetables, we can improve our diets by decreasing the inflammatory parts of our diets that, you know, meat, pro-inflammatory, or increases our body's inflammation. So there's growing research in the psychiatric field as well as across the medical fields of the harms that inflammation causes and the havoc it wreaks in our body. So there are ways in which to, you know, we talk a lot about being mindful of our diets and eating blueberries for antioxidant effects. The increased consumption of fruits and vegetables allow us to have an increase in the parts of our diet that lower inflammation in our body. So there are studies that show that individuals, adolescents and adults, eating or consuming more fruits and vegetables lead to lower inflammation in our bodies, can improve our mental mental health and wellbeing. So there's been studies to show lower incidence of depression as well as anxiety. I think we're really on the forefront of that. That type of literature is just starting. It's really not a new recommendation, but there are more and more studies and more organizations that are looking to food as medicine or ways in which we can change our diet to promote our physical and mental health.

And I know you've been, you've had some conversations with Dr. Naidoo, who's written the book on neuropsychiatry. Can you tell us a little bit about what she recommends?

So, yes, Dr. Uma Naidoo is at Mass General and she is somebody who's written so much about nutritional psychiatry. Specifically her book on This Is Your Brain on Food was her first book. Definitely read that, but her newest book just came out and I haven't read it yet, but it's another, it's a follow-up to her first book called Calm Your Mind with Food. So she talks a lot about the gut-brain axis and the importance of the microbiome, because we know that the importance of fiber, feeding that microbiome, that there are good bacteria that we need. And it also, the food that we eat is also playing a role in many of the nutrients, both macro and micronutrients that are important in the neurotransmitters that our body depends on for mental health or good mental health. You know, there's serotonin, there's norepinephrine, and all of these neurotransmitters require cofactors that we get from nutritional sources. So there's a number of ways in which the foods that we eat impact our physical health, of course, but our mental health importantly.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Naidoo is supposed to come on my podcast and I will have to—

Oh.

Yeah, it was, uh, she had a very busy schedule, but she did agree to come on. So hopefully she'll be coming on soon. So as a psychiatrist, how do you at home keep your family on mostly plant-based and healthy diet?

It's been a challenge. I have to say, when a couple years ago when I stopped eating meat, actually my daughter, who I've mentioned before, she also stopped eating meat. And she is someone who is very passionate about the environment and animals. And her decision not to eat meat is multifactorial and Yes. Um, we've always had a lot of fruits and vegetables around.

Mm-hmm.

So it's really been seamless for her. It's been problematic for my 18-year-old son who loves to eat in general, but prefers more than fruit and vegetables. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, you know, it's mostly just keeping cut up fruits and veggies in the fridge or even just leaving it on the counter, especially for him. He'll eat really whatever is there. So it's— It's making sure what comes into the house is on the healthier side. And, you know, they always give me a hard time because I never bought soda. And so that's a whole other talk about sugary beverages. So I think it's what's in the home is easy to control. It's once now he's off at college, he does tell me he's drinking soda. So I've lost that battle, but I'm hoping he'll come around.

Well, I agree. Being able to see what you have in the house is really important because I use all these glass jars. I've been using them them for years, and if you can see the cut of fruit, see the cut of vegetables, that's really key in people using it because even the peels, people might not be interested in it. And I would really recommend involving them because you can't be the one peeling and chopping all the time.

You know, that's true. But, and that's my own problem in my own house and because what I've found though, is you put the peeled fruit in the lunch, which I shouldn't still be contributing to. They do, they do tend to eat it more.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So easy access is key and we're, you know, fighting against the grain because there's easy access to addicting types of food is so commonly available. I have dietitian Susan Greeley coming on in the upcoming episode. Susan Greeley, who's the senior vice president and national director of wellness services at Castle Connolly Private Health Partners. And she's the host of Sense of Wellness podcast as well. And Susan's going to have some tips on how she keeps her 4 boys on a healthy diet predominantly.

And I'm so glad you mentioned that too, Juna, because I think it's when you see other people eating in a certain way that, for example, mention my son again, like once you get exposed to people who can maintain a healthy body habitus, like there's so many more— professional athletes. Yeah. Professional athletes that are talking about how they eat either a plant-predominant diet or vegan.

It helps their muscle recovery.

Exactly. And I think that now that we are seeing more of those individuals in the news, social media. I do think that getting that message out is important that it— because I think the messaging before was that you couldn't be strong and also be vegan or predominantly plant-based. So I think that's been huge. And the other kind of fun, silly ways, at least in my house, is we do have Meatless Monday, Taco Tuesday, and taco doesn't always have to have meat. You know, it's so, I think that there are fun ways to do it. The other important thing is that schools are changing because, you know, so many children get their meals outside the home and having the schools incorporate the Meatless Monday or what New York City's happening with Mayor Eric Adams, having the schools have, you know, whole menus that are not focused around meat. So it's exciting times. And I think we're just on the verge of more and more information and making it a little cooler to be plant predominant or vegetarian. Vegetarian.

Yes. And I just wanna add one little scary fact that's about what's happening right now, which is that we're diagnosing more and more GI cancers in younger people. This has been in the news lately, and we don't know exactly what's causing it. However, we can do all that we can to prevent, and that is lifestyle medicine. That is again, predominantly plant-based diet, eating fibers, soluble and insoluble fibers, as well as getting exercise, the correct amount of sleep. Social support and stress management.

Totally. And the one other thing that I talk a lot at POM about is increasing the water intake.

Mm-hmm.

Because sometimes we misinterpret our hunger cues, so we might be actually thirsty, you know, but we think we're hungry because that's just what our body is feeling. There's a lot of research that shows that drinking a glass of water or having a beverage prior to a meal. Just like trick— having 3 deep breaths or eating mindfully, we can decrease the volume of what we're eating because we may actually not be hungry, but we may be thirsty. I just remember after a long day of not eating lunch or something, coming home from work, maybe eating too many tortilla chips because I was so thirsty, but I was craving that salt. It's just something to consider, another tip, just to make sure that your family is drinking enough water and have healthy beverages at home.

That's another challenge, right? Trying to get people to drink water. I definitely need some, uh, fruit in there or something.

Now, we briefly touched upon the disturbing statistics of increasing cancer diagnosis in people who are younger than we are used to seeing. And it goes from multiple different types of cancers, not just GI cancers. So it's troubling because scientists have not pinpointed exactly what's causing this rise in cancers that sometimes are especially aggressive in younger patients. We can take measures to increase the balance of lifestyle and to avoid toxins when we can. To get some practical tips and understand some of the toxins in our environment, go to the episode where I speak with Dr. Ali Cohen called How Can We Protect Ourselves from Toxins in Our Daily Environment. In that episode, Dr. Cohen, the co-author of the bestselling guidebook Non-Toxic Guide to Living Healthy in a Chemical World, speaks to me about how to decrease our daily exposures to more than 95 1,000 chemicals that are present in our world today. Ali is working on a new book, and I can't wait to have her back on. She's scheduled in the fall of 2024, so hit subscribe and share so you don't miss this important episode coming up.