Using the Power of a Privileged Education to Break the Cycle of Poverty and Addiction with Dr. Rebecca Good

Boarding school was amazing. It was life-changing. I met a really positive, like, social circle, really positive teachers. And though I was struggling emotionally and I was very angry and sad, like, I definitely found a community of support and structure. I needed structure and routine. I love routine. You know, it takes time and years, but— and there's always a process. In my 20s, in my 30s, we constantly grow in our relationship. Reshapes and healing is done and apologies are made. And it just— you know, there's— it's never too late for us.

This is RxChill Pill. Now is the time to stay well. Each episode teaches your brain how to become resilient with amazing stories, knowledge from experts, and short meditations you can do anywhere, anytime to elicit your relaxation response. I'm your host, Dr. Juna Bobby MD, resilience and stress management physician and mother of two amazing kids. Hello, and today I'm here with Dr. Goode. How great is that name? She just got her PhD and she is the first person in her family to even graduate high school. She talks to us today about her incredible journey and growth from growing up in a traumatic household to becoming the dean of a master's program. As with so many incredibly resilient people that I meet, you'd never know from Rebecca's bubbly and inspirational exterior how much she's been through. Also stick around to hear a real live implicit bias unfolding in real time. Let's see if you get sucked up in the implicit bias story as well.

Hi, Rebecca.

Hello. Hello.

So good to see you, my—

Good to see you too. I'm so glad that we could get together and do this.

So you're in the office today, I see.

I am in the office today. Better Wi-Fi in the office than at home.

So it's almost our 1-year anniversary meeting.

I know, I was just doing, um, getting prepared for the Virtual Ed Summit for, uh, that's coming up next month, and I was like, oh, this is so tight, like, this is a year ago that we met.

Yes, oh, excellent. You know, I'm gonna try to join that. I, I went last year in Philly, and that's where we This year, obviously, it's virtual.

Yeah.

How do you feel about that?

Uh, it's going to be different, but what's exciting about it is we're going— I mean, right now I think we have over 1,000 people signed up to come and to log in. So that—

I—

it just now more people have access to really exciting, like, presentations and talks. And Angela's gonna be there, and we have Mark Brackett from Yale, and we've got Jason O'Connor from UC Berkeley. It's like really interesting, really interesting talks and work, especially a lot around empathy this, this year. So I think it's gonna be great.

That's fantastic. And we mean Angela Duckworth.

Yes, Angela Duckworth.

Yeah. And this is an awesome summit. Will they be accepting registrations right up to?

Oh, that's a really good question. I imagine so. They're not limiting—

virtual.

Yeah, it's virtual. And so to sign up for the sessions I'm imagining you can probably get in right beforehand. And they are capping some of the sessions just because they're really interactive, but I think it should be fine.

So focus is on empathy?

The focus— there's a lot of work on empathy and how to create empathetic relationships at different levels of between children and like school community.

So, uh, creating a community for the kids?

Yeah, creating a community and relationship for the kids. There's also— this is an Ed Summit that's going to talk a lot about social-emotional learning. Mark Brackett, he does the, the RULER approach.

Yeah.

And so that's been like— that's going to be a really great conversation and discussion and so timely considering, you know, what our young people and what all people are experiencing in 2020 right now. So It's going to be really valuable. It's like valuable for adults that work with children, but also just valuable for adults who are processing their own emotions.

I would love to see that. So I'm going to sign up for sure.

Good. Sign up.

What are you teaching?

I'm going to be doing— so every year that I've done Ed Summit, I work with the researchers to bring their incredible research to the classroom. And so my background as a teacher, I have the ability to say, oh, this is really great stuff. How do we create a space where it's really accessible for teachers and for kids? And so this one's going to be on building empathic relationships between either elementary school teachers and elementary students, secondary school teachers and secondary students, or school support like school counselors, your coaches, those relationships with students of all ages. And so thinking about how we can leverage those really strong relationships and empathy tools to just strengthen communication and connection between adults and kids.

Amazing, amazing. And I know that at RELA you guys teach teachers how to teach. I mean, I read an article about how, you know, you get so specific, even touching someone on the back while you give a correction or whispering a correction instead of saying it out loud in front of every— right?

Yes. So at Relay, we are teachers that are teaching teachers. And though, yes, we are faculty and professors and deans, all of us have a background as a K-12 teacher at some point in our career. And we really touch on not just the theory behind teaching, but all the nuances that go into creating really joyful and supportive classroom space for kids. Now a virtual space, which is, which is a whole new ballgame.

Amazing. But you were doing some virtual stuff before, right?

Yeah, our—

so you were telling me.

Yes, our programs are mostly hybrid programs, and so the students go online a little bit, and then they'll have, um, sessions in online, in person now, or in-person virtual.

These are your teachers who come to train with you and now you just— so is that how you met Angela Duckworth? Is that how you started collaborating with her?

So I met Angela in through Ed Summit. I was asked to join by our Relay president, Dr. Mamie Hostetter, to join the kind of teaching team. And then, and in that, after a few years, we just became like, I just became kind of a regular staple of Ed Summit. I enjoy it so much. It gets me in touch with teachers and educators from around the world. And so that's how we got connected.

Oh, that's awesome. And you do exude a lot of joy. So I loved your, I loved your, we can laugh at the same time, by the way.

Okay, good. I'm like trying to hold it in.

Yeah, so I just, I loved your breakout session because you have so much joy and energy, you know, so, and I know something really interesting happened just this year. You became a doctor, PhD, and I love saying your name because you're Dr. Good now. I know, Dr. Good.

I am Dr. Good.

That's amazing. That's the best name. So tell us about that and how you got Relay in Connecticut now to be able to distribute master's degrees, right?

Yes. So last, last summer about this time, I completed my, uh, doctoral degree. I, I defended, um, a year ago my research, and my degree is from the University of Southern California in global education. And my research that I was defending was about the role of our local state legislators and politicians in diversifying our teaching workforce So I worked really closely with our state legislators, House representatives and senators, around what bills and legislations and laws essentially are creating barriers for aspiring educators of color, and what can we do to adjust those and change those laws. It was incredible research. It was an incredible program, and none of that would have been possible possible unless Relay had stepped in a few years ago and said, we want to sponsor you to move forward with your doctoral degree in understanding that to open a graduate school of education in Connecticut, you— one of the requirements is that the leader has a terminal degree. So, wow.

Because I was going to say, that is so timely. Your PhD, your research project, and it's so essential in what you're doing with Relay, right, to get to understand the law and the legislation. I mean, I can't even say to understand, to understand all the politics behind all this, right? The real power.

It was directly connected to my work. And the funny thing is, I had no— I had no understanding. I had very little understanding of state politics. You could have asked me a few years ago, like, tell me the difference between, like, the federal government and the state government. I would have been lost. I'd have been like, I don't know.

I'm the same. I'm just starting to be educated. Wow.

Yeah. Yeah.

But, you know, I realize that as a person of color now, I know it's POC. I'm a person of color. I didn't know that before, but I started to reflect on that. And I realized that one of the reasons why I didn't know anything about it was because I felt like it had nothing to do with me because I had no power in it. I had no say in it. And I guess I was wrong. And I wish I had known it before, but I just felt like it was somebody else's, I guess, older white men's arena. And I just never thought of it as me belonging to it or having any say. So I just kind of completely ignored it.

Yep. I think— I mean, a lot of that I find potentially is by design, right? It's this thing that's far away. Don't worry about what we're doing. Think about like The Wizard of Oz. Don't mind the man behind the curtain, right?

Yes.

And then, and so for the last, you know, for 2 years, I pulled the curtain and I looked behind the curtain and it just very similar to The Wizard of Oz. Like, I was like, this is not, these are not, you know, folks that are, that have all of this information. They just have a position in power.. And like, so how do we as community members that, you know, vote them into these positions, how do we, how do we impact our laws that impact our daily lives? And how do we impact the people who are making those decisions? And we, we can, we actually are, have a lot more power than I realized.

Like, that's incredible.

Yeah. So now we are, we, you know, just a few months ago, Relay was recognized in-state as in, in Connecticut as a master's degree granting institution. You know, it took 4 years, 11 months, and 15 days to get it. Wow. Wow.

And I know you were a big part of that push.

Yes, from day one I was. I have been here working on that and trying to ensure that that comes to fruition and all of the barriers, the kind of confusion, the requirements, You know, it was, it was not easy. There was, there was some controversy, there was some confusion, but we got it done. And I think keeping at the core of what I was doing was I want to ensure that people who did not have a pathway or did not see they had a pathway to get a master's degree in education can have a pathway, an affordable pathway in the state so that we can have more diverse teaching workforce. And once I kept that at the core, all the fights, all the hard stuff was like, it's okay, because I know what I had a purpose.

Wow. And that was, that's the hybrid program, which allows people, which I know most of your students are already working teachers.

Yeah. Most of them are teachers or paraprofessionals or tutors. They've been in the school system or the district for 5, 10, 15, some 20 years. And they, They just needed a pathway to— they want to be teachers and they wanted to, they just didn't know a pathway that would work for them that was affordable because they're working already. Yes.

So it's hard to get a— so if you don't have a master's, uh, in— is this for teaching?

The Master of Arts in Teaching.

So if you don't have that, what is that? How does that affect somebody who's already working in the field? Is it salary? Is it prestige?

It's both. It's both salary, prestige, and, um, you are not able to kind of fulfill the highest level of licensure as a teacher in the state. So to reach the final and highest level, it— a master's degree is required.

Mhm. Wow. I am so amazed that you just— so that you just picked up this field and decided to get a PhD in it, and you have a mentor who guided you to do that, right? I mean, who was the who pushed for that?

The, the previous president of Relay, Norman Atkins, was really supportive. And just, I mean, just Relay in general as an organization, they do a lot of work in sponsoring faculty members to pursue their doctoral degrees. And so it's part of the institutional, like, fabric, which it should be, right?

Because it's an education and like you're educating people, so they're educating you. But that's amazing. So they paid for your your degree.

So they sponsored my degree.

And that's fantastic. Did you have to apply for it? They picked you?

You apply for it and you get selected based on the, you know, the importance of the degree and the work that you're doing. So given that you can't open a graduate school or lead one in Connecticut without one, it kind of lifted my priority level, I imagine, on the application.

Wow. And you're still smiling and And, uh, was that like a remote program because you had to fly out there?

It was a hybrid program. Some of it was online, and we then would meet for 1 to 2 weeks, um, around the world. So we could be at USC in Los Angeles. We held classes at Hong Kong University of Science and Technology.

Um, we went to Hong Kong.

Yeah, we were— we went to Hong Kong. Hong Kong. We were in— we had, um, uh, an intensive class week in Finland. Um, wow.

So you get to meet people from all over the world.

Yeah, the cohort is based with people all over the world. So we also did classes in, um, in Doha.

Yeah, I don't know where that is.

Qatar, in the Middle East.

Oh my gosh, I need to go back to school. Um, I want to have another podcast with you about Finland.

Oh, I can do it. Yes.

Can you promise me? Okay.

Yes. It's amazing.

I'm so interested in their education system.

The rumors are true. I saw it firsthand.

Oh my God. Okay, so we're gonna set a date for that. So you had a degree before that from Columbia University?

Yes, I had a master's degree. I earned my master's Educational Leadership from Columbia University's Teachers College.

Okay, wow. So are you done with school now?

I, I am so done with school. Um, I, I think, I don't, I think I really, I enjoy being a student. I really do.

I love it. I mean, I love it.

And so I don't know, maybe like what, an MBA? That would be interesting.

You're like collecting degrees. I would continue too, but one of my mentors said to me, look, you really— you have an MD, you don't need any more degrees. And I still collect certifications if I can. Um, so, and before Columbia, where were you?

Before Columbia, I did my undergrad, or I graduated, um, from UC Berkeley with an undergrad degree in sociology.

Wonderful, wonderful. So you were out there in California California. Is that where you grew up?

Yeah, I grew up in Northern California, um, born and raised. So my undergrad, I didn't go— I didn't go far, but I actually— I say I graduated from UC Berkeley, but I had attended multiple community colleges and state colleges, and I was a mid-year transfer into, into UC Berkeley. So, um, I really benefited from California's state school systems. Is, is incredible. Um, they have the You mean mobility-wise?

Because you were able to transfer?

Because you're able to transfer. It's affordable. It's— yeah, you just get an amazing education at a price that is just unbeatable if you are a resident of California.

So you—

now you're, uh, an eastern, northeastern transplant.

I am.

I miss California.

I, I do. There's, there's parts of California I miss. So much. Like, I have a deep connection with nature. And in California, you can be outside every day. There's not— that's what I miss. But I get back there once or twice a year and visit family and friends. That's enough. I am very— I love Connecticut. Like, this is home now for me. My roots are here. So I'm not itching to get back to California. Like, this is home.

So speaking of your family and childhood, I want to segue over to your incredible story because I know that you are the first person in your family to even graduate from high school.

Yes.

Is that right?

Yes.

And then you went on to community college. How did you have that, that drive, that motivation to transfer? Did somebody mentor you there? Who helped you?

Yeah, I I want to say there's like this like wonderful story and yet I actually just think it's like the rebellious spirit in me. Like it was rebellious for me to do something different from my family. And so I went, you know, my mom, single mom, she was raising two biracial kids, one child that passed as white, one that did not. In a predominantly white community, and it was complicated. And so when I think about like the space that she created, she— school was a routine and you just kind of went to school. And I wasn't expected to like go off and do these like amazing things in school. It was just like, that's where you go. But what happened was, is that I went to a private— I transferred to a private boarding high school.. And there everybody was just expected to go to college. So where I wasn't getting it at home, it was very clear in my high school that like you just go to college. That's the next step for everybody. I see. So I went to college.

So your mom is white and your dad is?

Black. Yep. My mom is white and my dad is Black.

American Black? Yes. They're both American?

Yes.

Okay, you grew up with your mom?

I grew up with my mom. I did not pass as white. My brother, my older brother does. So interesting.

All right, so I've been reading about this label, like person of color but pass as this, or identify as person of color but I pass as that.

I don't know.

Yeah, interesting. So you grew up with your mom?

Yes.

And I know there's a story there. Yeah, that was a really rough time that you went through as a child.

Yes, definitely. So when I, when I think about like traumatic events in somebody's life, from the, from birth to probably the age of 20, traumatic events were just kind of rampant. That was like a normal experience in world, like physical, emotional abuse, addiction, kind of bearing witness to violence of all kinds and gun violence, homelessness, abandonment. It was just a normal in my upbringing. And wow, it's a fascinating kind of like to normalize kind of traumatic events. You don't know and growing up in the '80s and '90s, there was not— nobody was telling me like, like, this is bad. Like, this is real bad. But this is my life. This is all I know. So how do you know that to be any different?

So you felt like this was just— this is the way it was? Yeah.

Like some people just had more like crazy stuff happening in their house. And I just knew that whatever wild and crazy things happen in my family, you just go get up and you go to school and you just don't really talk about it.

Like, even if you didn't sleep all night, or if I didn't—

maybe I didn't sleep at home, maybe I slept on somebody's couch somewhere else, I don't know. Maybe I didn't sleep at all. Maybe there was, you know, police coming in and out there. You just never knew.

Wow. Into your house?

Yes.

This is from when you were zero, you said? As long as you can remember?

As long as I can remember. Just growing up was a really kind of unstable childhood. So there was You just didn't really know what was going to happen. You could have really great moments or time spans and then kind of the rug is pulled out from under you. And my brother and I— my brother's 5 years older than I am— you just kind of try to figure out what to do next and how to just stay alive and keep going and make sure that you can kind of wake up and go to school the next day.

Wow. So the root of the problem, was it addiction?

Definitely the root of the problem is addiction. My family, maternal and paternal side, just have really deep legacy of drug and alcohol addiction and all that can come with that.

Yeah.

And so for me, as the first person in my family not only to graduate high school, but also just being the first to— I think this is once again, it's kind of the rebellious nature. I was like, I am not going to be an addict. Like, I am not going to do drugs. I am not going to drink alcohol. There was a very like, I'm going to be different. I'm going to be different. And I don't even know what that means, but like, I'm not going to do those things. And so the only way—

So you saw the wrongness going on. Right. You saw that this is not the way to live.

Right. I was like, I don't want that life. I'm not going to be like my mom I'm not going to be like my brother and dad. Like, the— but it was almost in a way, like I said, of being rebellious. Like, I was like angry, so I'm like, I'm not going to be like that.

So you remember feeling like that even when you were a little kid?

Even when I was a little kid, yep. Uh-huh.

Just watching them, kind of looking at them, like shaking your head.

Yep. All the, all the judgment, not understanding everything that was going into it, but just like, I don't, I don't want any of this life. When I get to choose when I'm in control of my world, this will not be part of my world.

Wow.

And so your brother also succumbed? I'm sorry to hear that.

Yeah, yeah, he— I mean, now, what are— in our, you know, later in our lives now, we've— people are— my family, my mom and brother are— live a sober life, a much healthier life.

Okay.

So that's like really kind of a wonderful kind of, you know, chapter in our family.

That's amazing.

Yeah, but I mean, for most of, of their lives, my brother and mother, they just, the, what alcohol and drugs did to them and just was created so much instability and how you kind of progress in that world. You know, I kind of watched within and from afar.

And what about your dad? He wasn't with you?

Uh, my dad was not as, as present in, in the daily life. Um, very much with in like a kind of loving phone call away, or if I needed to get away for a weekend. But even in that world, he kind of lived a very kind of free-spirited, kind of party type of world.

Not a PG-rated world.

Not a PG-rated world.

So you see all of these adults and older people acting badly around you, right? So what do you do? Like, as a little girl, did you have friends? Did you have teachers or neighbors?

I did. Relatives? I had friend groups., that really took me in at, and kind of my friends' families or parents took me in in different stages of my life. I also had books. I was an avid reader, almost like secretively reading because it wasn't actually very cool in my friend group. So I was like the one that I read a lot from a very early age. My mom always, I remember being little and she'd have me read books to her and I got really into books. And so as a teenager, there were probably 3 books that I would read over and over again. One was Go Ask Alice about a young girl.

I read that. I did a book report on it.

Ah!

So telling, right? Young girl, she goes into like drug addiction and like what, right? And so I remember reading that all a lot and feeling connected in some ways to that young girls experience. Um, The Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison in high school had a really profound impact, and I read that multiple times then throughout college. And then another—

wow, um, I'm gonna read that.

Yeah, another one was I, Rigoberto Menchú, uh, about a Guatemalan woman who— that also just— it was like these 3 books that just had these— you had struggle, you had difficulty, and then, and then what was the result of that for people? Some Alice, not so well, but for a lot, like, but for others, like, how they came out or how they got through those struggles were pretty profound. Yeah, I, I read a lot.

That's incredible. That's incredible. What about when you were like a little girl? Did you read little books like Beverly Cleary, or— that was one of my favorites. Um, do you have any books that— because I used to live in the library also. I had a similar upbringing, maybe not as bad, but similar, and I would just live in the library.

Uh, my, my go-to's, like, The Baby-Sitters Club and Sweet Valley High. Like, I think I might have read every single book in those series.

I love it. So you escaped in books?

I escaped in books.

What about TV?

TV, not so much, because in the '80s and '90s, there was like maybe one TV set in our house, and my brother, he like ran the channels. He had to turn the knobs. If I got close to knob when like The Incredible Hulk was on, I was gonna be in big trouble. So, oh my God.

So your teachers were also— they noticed something in you?

Yeah.

So you're very intelligent, people could see it?

Yeah. My teachers were like my advocates, confidants, and guides. Like, they definitely— no matter— there were key teachers that no matter how rebellious I got in school, they kind of saw it as— you could say, you could say they saw it as leadership. Though I might have been in detention, they were like, no, but you are also a leader and kind of nurtured that in me. Like, you're going to lead these activities or you're going to do these things. And I— and they kind of, you know, really pushed me to like, you could do better, you could be better.

And so they saw it. They saw your potential.

Yes, definitely.

And you want to name some of them? Who are they?

Oh my gosh. There's Mr. Stewart, my middle school PE teacher, Mr. Eberhardt, my high school history teacher. I had Mr. Swope. He was the— he was like the assistant principal that did all the discipline. So I spent a lot of time in his office.

Really?

But he's like, even with all my trouble, he's like, you're gonna— you're going places. Like, you're gonna be all right. And I needed people to remind me or share that with me because there were times where I just didn't see that in myself. So that was helpful.

Hanging out with you in detention, he could see your potential.

Yes, yes.

Got to spend a lot of time with you.

You find leaders in the most interesting spaces.

Very, very cool. And were these teachers white or of color?

Yeah, all of them from kindergarten until, uh, until the 12th grade were all white teachers. I actually did not have a teacher of color or a Black teacher until until my freshman year of college.

Wow, they obviously took you under their wing.

They really did. They really did. And, you know, in my world, I lived in a predominantly white world because my father—

Oh, you did? I was gonna say, you didn't look like your mom and brother at home. So did you feel like— was there any tension from that in your home?

No.

Or did that make you feel even more separate and like, I'm not going to be like you guys.

You know, it was so interesting. I, in hindsight, I can see how complicated and how much turmoil that caused me. But in the moment, my whole world was just very white. Like, my school didn't have, like, out of 1,000 middle schoolers, maybe only 3 of us were like Black and in some way, maybe biracial or fully Black. So, and, but of course there was, I gravitated towards people of color. There was a very clear, I was searching for something, but those were not conversations to be had in my home.

Your friend groups, were they white?

My friend groups often tend to be mixed.

Okay.

But I definitely had the kind of my Black friends Black and people of color friend group, and then I had a white friend group. And, and very much how I lived my life, I just went back and forth.

Um, but it sounds like you moved pretty well through both cultures.

Yeah, I really, I really did. And my father, when I would visit him, he was very connected to what it meant to be Black and what it meant to be proud of your Blackness. And so I had kind of this from you are, proud of who you are, don't deny like your racial identity. So I had these messages of positivity about what it meant to be Black, even though I wasn't growing up in the more traditional Black community, in a Black family. But you—

this white community still had so much violence?

Yes. I always think it's like the— like, oh, then the assumptions that we make around like Oh, but in that community? Yeah, that community was like filled with addiction and like domestic abuse. And it's just people don't talk about it. It doesn't get on the news. You don't—

it's so much more hidden. That's interesting. It's so much more hidden. So this was a white-collar, blue-collar neighborhood?

Oh yeah, it is actually one of the wealthiest. Contra Costa County in California is one of the wealthiest counties in all of California. Um, so it is my—

you grew up in an affluent neighborhood?

Yes.

And, and there was addiction and abuse and— wow. And, but in your home as well?

Yes, in my home. And in— mainly in the, in the home. And you just, when you go outside your home, you just don't talk about those things. But even in my friend groups, you know, that, like I said, that in the predominantly white friend groups there was all types of dysfunction happening. And you just— it just got hidden by the fancy stores and the well-manicured lawns and all the things that hide all of that in a affluent neighborhood.

Okay, I'm having a processing thing right now because—

you can laugh out loud. I love it. Go ahead.

I'm trying to process because, of course, Is this my implicit bias? Because when you told me you grew up in an abusive family, that it was traumatic, there was addiction, I imagine that you grew up in a poor minority environment.

Yeah, so that—

because you're biracial, and now you're telling me you grew up in a very affluent neighborhood with this, this same story.

Oh my gosh, you are totally having a moment. Yes, I, my, your bias, implicit bias, you had a whole, you had a whole whole vision, like your picture in your mind was like, oh yes, I was giving you, like, telling you the narrative of the stereotypical impoverished Black community. And yet at no point did I ever say, like, I lived in an impoverished Black community. You're so right. It is. It's true. Like, that is— no, that is—

yeah. Because you gave me that whole story before and you never said you grew up in an affluent neighborhood that was white.

Yep. I did. That was not on purpose. Like, I didn't like leave those details out. It was just my experience.

You're like, let me test her implicit bias. This was live, folks. My brain live on implicit bias right there today.

Like, it's always there. We're always grappling with it, right?

I'm so confused now. So your mom was an addict, but she's wealthy. What does she do for a living?

Well, we, you know, there's always a community and part of wealthy communities that are not wealthy that need to live in the community. Right. So we, when we moved to this particular town in Walnut Creek, California, we didn't move with wealth. My mom was working kind of like administrative work and she commuted almost 2 hours into San Francisco. Each day back and forth. And she just, she's definitely one of those stories of staying with a company for more than 20 years and working your way up to like top positions. So that is what she did, even despite, you know, she, the addiction that she had struggled with, she was able, she was very functional, highly functional in her workspace. And then we proceeded to move from like the small little apartment in this community in the like block that was considered the bad part of town, which is not even bad in those days.

Okay.

And we kind of stayed in this town and in this county. And the more she developed in her workspace, the more we were able to get into larger homes and have then vacation homes. And so we went from being in a very poor in a fluent community to, to being affluent in a fluent community, all in the span of my childhood.

Wow. So your mom is a hard worker even though she has an addiction?

Yes.

So she's one of those function— highly functioning?

Yes, yes.

Okay.

Highly functioning, um, very hard working. And I take, you know, from her you know, there's— yes, there's difficult times in our lives, but that you also see like where that comes from in her childhood and like how we progress through that.

Was she abused?

Yeah, so she came from a very kind of violent and abusive and a difficult, um, upbringing and was able to turn that trauma into and leverage that into doing much better and like drive than she was raised in, um, which I think is also—

she brought along with it like addiction and anger and all the emotional, social-emotional issues.

Yes, yes, right? Yes.

That's an amazing story. So you're growing up in this affluent white town, but social services don't hear about you being traumatized either or abused? No.

So, um, there maybe were some flags that like my my middle school, I don't know if they flagged for my mom or what happened, but by the age of 12, my mom just felt that I was not in a position, she was not in a position to care for me. So at the age of 12, I was kicked out of the house. Wow. And I entered into kind of a foster care system and I didn't—

Oh my God.

I didn't return home until I was about 16. 16. And wow, even in that, I still stayed in this very affluent community but just didn't live with my mother. I lived in different kind of foster homes and then like settled into one of my friend's parents, um, took me in so I could live in there. Wow. Until I went to boarding school.

Oh my goodness, were they white?

Yeah, they were a white family.

So you grew up with another white family? Did you see your mom and brother during that time?

Limited, sometimes.

And so she put you in foster care because she was abusing you or because you were getting in trouble?

Because I was getting in trouble. She was—

So you were getting in trouble at school and she said she couldn't handle you anymore?

Yep. She's like, I can't, I can't do this now. This is too hard.

That is so traumatizing. So you had a huge abandonment issue when you were in your teen years?

Yes. Yes. You know, when your mom's like, I can't take care of you anymore.

Oh my gosh. And you have inappropriate affect. I know that one because I laugh too when I talk about my trauma. And people told me that's inappropriate affect.

That's so funny. If somebody tells you, like, you're like, you're inappropriately having a response. Well, at this point, like, that's my response though.

I like it.

It's like so crazy and so just out of like, what? Your mom put you out at 12? I'm like, yeah. Yes.

I like it. I like it because I deal with it the same way.

I laugh about it.

Kindred souls. But so I'm sorry that happened to you and your mom. Did she keep your brother?

So my brother was— he had probably around the same age, so 5 years earlier, was also kind of out of the house by his choosing and kind of not, I mean, yeah, by his choices, but he was in and out of kind of correctional and detention facilities kind of starting at a very young age. And so he wasn't really around as much in my teenage years. So he'd come in and out. So we both, we, you know, I think for my mom, she just watched my brother go through such a difficult and like dangerous lifestyle at a young age that when she saw me start to become really rebellious and angry, she was like, I'm gonna— no, we're gonna cut this off early. Like, you— this is not going to be acceptable in my house. And so I think that was her way, in hopes to like, I don't want you to go down a path that your older sibling went down.

And also she knew she couldn't handle her own emotions with you, and she was traumatizing you.

Exactly. So like, I, I don't have the wherewithal as a parent to be able to support you through this, or to support you if you are calm. Like, there's we can't, this is not going to work. And luckily for me, I was able to— she's still from afar very much was pushing me towards boarding school. Like, so for high school. And so she's like, I will, let me help in that. Maybe school will be the place where Rebecca gets some type of support and structure that I'm not able to offer in the house. And I did. That is where I got support and structure.

So did you feel like happy to leave her? Because it sounds like it was miserable to live with her anyway. I'm sure there's— I don't know, you're just surviving, right?

Yeah, like in hindsight it was very much a— I just survived. Like, I, I just, I, I just, I remember coming home and the locks were all changed and I had a suitcase on the front, on the front, at the front door, and she wrote me a very, like, a handwritten written letter that just, you know, was, you know, I'm sorry, you're gonna need to leave, you're gonna need to go. She told me to go with my father. I didn't want to go to my father, so I just started couch hopping. And then my school, I was in middle school, my school found out that I wasn't going home, and somebody at my school called the police. And so I was picked up by the police at school. That was a pretty traumatizing thing.

Oh my gosh.

That was actually more like, I was more impacted by like my peers seeing police like pick me up at school.

Yeah.

Because I was like, I'm not in trouble. Like, I didn't do anything wrong. Like, my mom like changed the locks. And so that's, and then, and so that was kind of a scary, you know, that was a scary space. I didn't, I didn't want to be in a legal a bad situation legally. I didn't know. I didn't understand. Like, somebody say I ran away. I couldn't have run away if the locks were changed.

Right.

That was confusing space. But once it took about 6 months for my friend's mother to, like, make an arrangement with my mom to allow me to live with my friend's mom.

Thank goodness. And then you went to foster homes too?

Yeah. So we met 6 months kind of before I got landed at my friend's house. I was in different foster care homes that were not—

What is that like?

It wasn't— it wasn't like terrible. I don't, I don't have any kind of traumatic, like, foster care experience. It was just kind of people who had different kids coming in and out in transition. And I just like, that's where I ate. That's where I slept. And then I went to school and I just tried to be at school as long as possible all day with friends.

Wow. And all this time you're doing well in school?

No, I was doing horrible.

But it was just middle school.

I really struggled academically in school, in middle school and high school. I was not an A student. I did not thrive in school until college.

Oh my gosh. So you went to boarding school. And how was that experience? And you're on your own now.

Yeah, that experience. The boarding school was really close to my home, was only 20 minutes away. So it was your mom's, my mom's home. And even the family that took me in, they were only 5 minutes up the street from my home, from my house. Like, they were in the same neighborhood. So boarding school was amazing. It was life-changing. I met a really positive, like, social circle, really positive teachers. And though I was struggling emotionally and I was very angry and sad, It was, it was definitely a community. Like, I definitely found a community of support and structure. I needed structure and routine. I love routine.

Which school was this?

It's called the Athenian School in Danville. Uh-huh.

And was this all, um, was it white kids there too? Or is it mostly—

there was, uh, an international community, uh, students coming from Taiwan and China, Korea. And then there was, uh, mostly fairly affluent white families. And then They're also— they had a strong program that brought in kids from more urban communities. So that my class in particular, it was the first time I was around a lot more students who identified as Black, which was really, like, really important for me.

So that was positive.

Yeah, I'm still close with my friends from high school to this day.

You lived together?

I mean, we did. I was there for my first my freshman year. And then after my freshman year— it was a boarding and day school— after my freshman year, I moved back in with my mom and just commuted.

Oh wow. So then you had a reunion with her, and how was that?

Uh, it was great. I mean, we— like, I was glad to be home. I, I matured. Like, she had, uh, matured and adjusted. And there, my step—

was she sober by then?

She starting to really see her life in a more sober way. My step— she was in a really positive relationship. My stepfather, who I love dearly, they got married. And so that was like things were getting better. It takes time and years, but you can just see in our relationship now, which is thriving and fantastic, there's— It takes time to heal and to grow and to learn. And even in adulthood, like at 16 years old, I like watched my mom do that and go through those learning and that healing.

That is an incredible story. I mean, really, that you guys both grew.

Yeah. Yeah.

Right. And that you reconciled. That's amazing.

Yeah. And we, you know, it's always, and there's always a process in our 20s, in my 20s, in my 30s. We just constantly grow and our relationship reshapes and healing is done and apologies are made and it just, you know, it's never too late for us.

That is so good to hear.

Did you guys have therapy?

Maybe. I think I can think of maybe like 1 or 2 times that we might have gone to therapy together. My mom always taught me the value of therapy and the importance of it. Sense of having kind of a neutral party to talk to and help to get through things. And so like that, whether that was then at the school counselor in middle school or even in adulthood, saying, oh, I need, I need additional support and I want to go to therapy. And so that's something that's always kind of been part of her life individually and my life individually, uh, and it's been really helpful.

Wonderful. So if you could tell me, what are the things that got you through when you didn't have therapy?

So the things that, that really got me through, it's this nature. I don't like how to— when my mind, even to today, but you as a child too, is just spinning with stress. Like, there's— I, I actively look to try to slow it down. And to the way to slow it down, or one of my favorite activities, is just to be outside. That might be like, okay, sitting against a tree, and I just sit and I listen to the sounds around me. I can even remember being a little girl sitting at the bus stop, like outside of my house and just like sitting and listening. No book. There was no like, I had no phones then to like flip through. It was just sitting and listening to the sounds around me. That is really calming for me. Yeah. Yeah.

I guess now So that's mindfulness without a name. That's like a natural human ability.

But I never, you know, looking back, that was something I had.

We just put a name to it and now it's a fad.

Call my anxiety a fad.

I mean, it's very helpful.

I also, sports were big. I played a lot of team sports, uh, basketball. I played basketball. I was the captain of our varsity soccer team in high school. I ran like, um, cross country.

What would you play?

And now as a grownup, I do, I really enjoy like extreme, like hot yoga. That is like, uh, a melodic— no, nope.

Yeah, because you can't think when you're doing hot yoga.

Not at all. I'm gonna just pass out.

So you have the mental resilience by just quieting yourself, becoming kind of using your senses just naturally. You did that in nature.

Yes.

And then you have your physical resilience because you're always, you know, I mean, they say if you had one wonder drug, it would be exercise. So sounds like you have that also.

Yes, definitely. I love, I love exercise. I'm not good at like individual. I need like a group exercise, like a team sport or like a group class and then just deep breathing. So all these things that, yes, are now fads, like, you're like, meditation and mindfulness, not— yeah, those were things that I—

now there's names to, uh, things we do naturally to calm down, but maybe some people don't have that naturally. So, but it's awesome to systematically do it, right?

Definitely.

Do you ever follow like a system or, or like an app, or do you ever use guided meditations or anything like that?

I haven't. I've tried some guided meditations. I oftentimes fall asleep, but that's helpful. Yeah, I, I also— the thing that I use a lot is Audible, so I listen to audiobooks.

Oh, I love—

but I'm very particular about like the voice of who I'm like. I need a voice that brings me like joy, so I'll listen to like Michelle Obama's book or Trevor Noah over and over. There's something about their voice and storytelling that really like calms me, so that's something that I, I love.

It— I love that. So did you ever play music or anything? It sounds like you're very, um, Auditory sensitive.

I had a small couple years in the jazz band playing the saxophone, but that's— I couldn't even remember how to read music at this point.

You are an amazingly resilient person. I know you taught for Teach for America. That's another story we're not going to get into today, but who did you look up to? And it sounds like you had a lot of mentors who saw a lot of potential in you, who, who no matter what you thought of yourself, really believed in you and saw the future leader in you, right? Definitely. And so there's some quality about you that is able to be led by a mentor.

Yes. Yes.

What would that quality be? Do you know? Can you name it?

Oh, because you're a troublemaker, but they're still like, oh yeah, I'm totally a troublemaker. I still think I still am.

Um, well, you have a brilliant smile.

Maybe that's That's why. Thank you. Well, I, you know, I really see, I see leadership in like in people who are just joyful and kind and like are unapologetic about their like courage and kind of fight for those who have been like marginalized or who don't have a voice. And when I see people doing that in like loud ways or quiet ways, I'm in awe of them and I want to hear them and be led by them and lead beside them and help lead their work. That is, you know, inspiring to me and motivating to me. I don't believe in there can only be, you know, one person to make a difference. I think we all need to know when to lead and when to follow. So.

And you're becoming a leader now, or you already are. I'm honestly. You're a leader. And I think what you said before was something that maybe people who are in power or who are teachers saw in you is that you have this love of learning.

Yeah.

You have this curiosity.

I curio—

Right? You said you love to learn. So they must have— who, as a teacher, you're a teacher now. Like, if somebody loves to learn, don't you want to be— doesn't that make you so excited?

It makes me so excited, but I also get really excited when I work when this happened, when I worked with kids, it happens when I work with adults. When I see somebody who's like, I don't like this, I'm not engaged, I take it on as like, oh, I just have to find like, what's your spark? What excites you? And I, it's like this challenge that I've become obsessed about finding what is going to bring a joy of learning to this human being.

Like, what do you do?

I mean, it's either I, I ask a lot of questions. Like, I ask questions like, what are they like? What are they into? And then I try to find readings or articles or YouTube videos or anything that can kind of connect them to get excited about learning something new in a safe way. And that is something that I think made me a successful classroom teacher with kids. I think it still makes me a successful classroom teacher of adults. Is just finding what somebody is passionate about or introducing them to maybe a new passion.

Wow. So you just meet them where they are.

Yeah, meet them where they are.

And then— oh my God, you're amazing. Okay, I'm signing up for that summit right now. I can't wait to see you, and we have to do this again.

I would love to. I would really love to.

And I, I want to talk about like education and all that too, because we're moving towards different, you know, designs, right? You're, you're designing your own education there for teachers.

Yes, there's a lot of great labs, a lot of interesting things. I think that we just have to be like flexible and open to try things out, and we might fail, and we're gonna learn from that failure, and then we're gonna pick it up and do something better, and like, that's okay.

Oh gosh, all right, I'm giving you virtual hugs. You're so beautiful, and you have so much joy and so much excitement around around you. I, I love it.

Thank you so much, Juna Bobby MD. I'm really excited about this, and I'm really excited to talk to you in the future. All right, awesome. Take care. Bye-bye.

Wow, Rebecca is such an inspiration to me, and you heard it from her, and it's such an amazing reminder: it is never too late for any of us. In fact, science is showing us that our brains can change till the day we die, no matter how old we are. So you can always change. You can always start now, and that is really the most important thing to remember at all times. And that's also the reason why I started this podcast, to remind everyone and myself that change is always possible, moment to moment. It's never too late. The Educator Summit is hosted by Character Lab. That's Angela Duckworth, the author of Grit, and really graduate school of Education. I went last year and it was incredibly inspiring. This year it's just a 1-day program and it's online on July 22nd. The ticket price is only $100 and because it's virtual you can attend from the comfort of your own home. Please see the show notes below for the link. I also want to remind you to subscribe and share this podcast with as many people as possible and please leave a review review on Apple Podcasts. These are all really important things for me to keep this podcast going, and it's going to get better and better. We have amazing guests coming up, and you can ask me questions for them at info@mindbodyspace.com. So until next time, this is Dr. Juna Bobby MD wishing you and your loved ones wellness.