In this interview, personal trainer Ken Womack and psychiatrist Dr. John A. King discuss how disciplined, uncomfortable physical exercise can serve as a powerful tool for mental health, especially for PTSD recovery. Womack critiques two common gym mindsets: the “rope‑pushdown” myth that isolated exercises alone are sufficient, and the “union‑job” approach of going through the motions without genuine effort. He argues that true benefit comes from pushing oneself out of breath for at least 30 minutes per session, emphasizing that such effort improves mental capacity and self‑esteem. Womack cites research indicating that exercise outperforms placebo and antidepressant treatments, with a 95% benefit rate in exercise groups. He proposes a concrete commitment: 150–160 workout sessions per year (roughly three times a week) as a measurable benchmark for consistency. The conversation then shifts to the role of exercise in military, police, firefighter, and veteran populations, noting that physical training is embedded in daily duty and contributes to resilience. Finally, they address “dark days” and holiday periods, offering practical advice—get out of bed, maintain the routine, and use exercise as a mental reset. Throughout, Womack stresses honesty, commitment, and the psychological advantage of doing something tangible even when other aspects of the day go poorly.
Chapters
Most people our age, John, you'd agree, know they need to exercise.
Yeah.
But the theory out there of how you need to exercise— so one of my things Being that I've been a personal trainer since 1983, and my existence for the past 30 years is sitting in a gym watching people exercise.
Doing it bad and doing it good.
So contrary to popular belief, rope pushdowns are not the be-all and end-all of exercises. Rope pushdowns are not going to get you in shape, no matter how you vary the form. You have to squat, you have to bend, you have to get out of breath, you have to be uncomfortable, period.
Yeah.
So the other philosophy The other philosophy is this is a union job, I need to work out, I need to go to the gym. So I'm there at 5:02, I walk on the treadmill for 27 and a half minutes checking out the chicks around me, looking at the news, bitching at Trump or whoever you may be. You may be for the Democrats or whatever. And then you go hit about 5 machines on your way out the door checking out some more old chicks or young chicks and then leave the gym. That's the union job. That don't work either. You have to be uncomfortable for a minimum of 30 minutes. So that will help with your mental capacity and making you firm and strong again from whatever problems you've had in the past, of making you feel better about yourself. Because the other benefit of exercise is it blows depressionary medicine out of the water. You give somebody a placebo, a depressionary medicine, and exercise, the people in the exercise group benefit 95% compared to the placebo group and the antidepressant group. So if you throw all that crap down the toilet where it needs to be and just get your butt in the gym and work out— Yeah, that's good and sweat for 27.5 minutes, 3 days a week. That's 13 times in a 30-day period. You're gonna miss a month because of vacation and sickness and kids. So 11 times 13 is how much, John?
It's too early in the morning, King.
So that's almost 155 workouts. So not the union mentality exercise or the other one, but consistently being honest with yourself of going to the gym for a minimum of 150 times in a 365-day period and pushing yourself. Yeah, that's the only way to get better.
I like what you said, consistently being honest with yourself. But that's, but that's it with life, isn't it?
That's it. You can, you can fake it till you make it, as we know in the sales complex. That's a large saying, fake it till you make it. Some people fake it really good, but you'll always get caught in the end. Just be truthful and push yourself and be honest.
You've worked, um, I've known Kenny for too long, but so you've worked a lot in that time with police officers, firefighters, Veterans, you know, current military, serving military. What role do you think that exercise plays, you know, in mental health?
You know, if you look at the way the military had y'all's lives set up when you were in the military, how much exercise predominantly did that take of your day? So if you're in the military, you're typically on an 8-hour shift if you're out in the field. So if you're in-house, your day consists of getting out of bed, shit, shower, shave, and go run. Then you got calisthenics, so that boils down to about an hour to an hour and a half. You go eat chow, then you come back and you bivouac, which is really more housecleaning because technically according to the federal government, if you clean house, you're physically fit. And we know that cleaning house ain't running 3 miles and doing push-ups and climbing ropes and all that crap. So there's a large variance in what people conceive as exercise. But as you guys know from being in the military, of an 8-hour day, I would bet 3 hours of that is physical fitness, isn't it? By far.
I don't know, mate, it sounds— and you've got all the, like, the police, big culture there working out, SWAT training, and then you've got the firefighters, they're always working out when they're in there. And I just know that a lot of, like, in my own case, you know, working with you has been essential for mental clarity on the days that, you know, when the shit turns up and it's a crappy day.
Yesterday.
Yeah, yesterday or today.
Yesterday was dark.
Yeah, yesterday was dark. But the thought of the discipline of getting up and doing Doing it and getting up and going. And just if you can get through that non-union mentality, you're not only sitting there looking at arse and watching TV, but you're actually making yourself sweat. You get it, as you said, you get it going, everything gets going.
Exactly.
And you feel like, okay, if I've done— so it's a little bit like I've done— I might have a crappy day, but I've done one thing well. I've gone to the gym well. And if you start— particularly I find if I start my day that, even if the rest of it goes to crap and I can't get it done, it's like I went to the gym and it gives me a start for my day.
Which is hand in hand with the military. Yeah, get your butt out of bed and go exercise. Yeah, end of story. So I found a comment that I think you'll like the other day, a quote I think you'll like, John. It's, an interest is something you'll do on a passing fancy, but a commitment is something you'll get out of bed for when it's snowing, it's raining, you don't want to go. It's a commitment. So your commitment to fitness over 150 to 160 exercise sessions in a 365-day period is the difference between, I know I'm 58 years old and I need to work out, and the discipline of getting your butt out of bed when it's sleeting and snowing outside at 4 o'clock in the morning. You gotta go to the gym.
Yeah, that's very good. Very, very good. So Christmas time can normally be tough for some folks, you know, just mentally, like family, just putting up with the in-laws is tough anyway, but It's like Uncle Eddie. It's a little bit like National Lampoon's all over the world, you know. And a lot of guys, you know, they're on the grog, they're on the sugars, and they're missing their exercise. So what would you advise for people coming into this period? Should they just go with that, or what would, what would be some safety nets they could put in place?
So the dark days—
Oh, old man muscle just hit.
So the dark days are what get you. You got to get out of bed on the dark days. 'Cause that'll keep you, get you through it. Can't stay in bed on dark days.
Yeah, it's true, you can't. Dark days will always get you. They'll mess you up at some point.
Then you get to go to breakfast and everything's cool.
BSing with mates.
That's it.
Thank you.
Look at me go like I'm a kid again. You brought me his jalapeños. Thank you so much. I'll be right back with coffee.
