Empathy and Understanding In Business - w/ Chris Voss

Foreign.

Welcome everybody to another edition of CPG Insiders. I'm your host Mark Young with my co host Justin Gerard. Well, folks, on the, on the air with us today is a, is a dear friend of mine who is just one of the smartest, most intuitive people I know. And his name is Chris Foss. Now, Chris, you may have known, you may have seen Chris on the news, you may have read his book, which has never split the difference. You may even seen him flying on an airplane where he had his master class on, on the, on the Delta television screens. Chris is, Chris was a international kidnapping negotiator for the FBI. So he was like one of those, you know those, they got all those FBI TV shows that you see on tv. Well, Chris was like the real deal who was out negotiating, you know, all these national hostages and some of the most highly visible things that you've ever seen. In fact. You were out of New York, right Chris?

Yeah, I worked out in New York.

At a long run, which is like the terrorist capital of America. I mean if you think about as far as for where terrorists, terrorism prep and everything happens, which is actually very true.

You know, a lot of them come through there, they got their own little secret societies, they talk to each other. It's crazy.

So at any rate, Chris has, Chris, you've actually trained people at the FBI, Scotland Yard, Harvard Law School, Attorney General's rule, and now Chris has his own business. And I've been to many of Chris's presentations with the Black Swan group. They do an amazing thing. And Chris has a new book out and the new book, what's his name of the new book here? You've got it there. Empathy. Now what we're talking about here is we're talking about empathy in business, but this isn't on this show. We're talking about being an empathetic entrepreneur and using empathy in your business. But keep in mind, anything that we talk about here in the way of empathy can apply to your personal life as well as it can apply to your business life. So Chris, why what's different about this book and the first one? The first book never split the difference, which I want to highly recommend people go get. What's different here?

Well, you know, we decided a great way to really help people feel that they could do this in all walks of life is to bring in a bunch of authors. Each chapter is a different author and the COVID that you, you held up. My son has a chapter himself that he wrote completely separate from me, but to make it more three dimensional you know, hear from somebody else besides Chris Wallace. How did. In my. In their circumstances, I can't remember 20, 25 separate authors saying, here's where I was in my walk of life. Here's what I was doing. There's a pretty good chance that somebody exactly like you is going to read this book. And so some people say, you know, I was never a hostage negotiator. I don't know if I could do this. You were a hostage negotiator. I don't have your resume. Well, this is other people showing so many different ways, and every time you hear about the same thing from a different angle, it deepens your understanding of it. Somebody wrote something in another chapter where you're going to go, ah, all right, yeah, that was perfect for me. I get it now. So it's really just a way how we broaden and expand the scope of everybody's understanding so they can embrace this concept.

Now, what's the premise here? The premise here of empathy? What. What are we talking about? We're talking about putting ourselves in the other person's shoes. Is that what we're really talking about here?

Well, that's close. I mean, think of empathy is analysis. Empathy is reason. Empathy is taking an analytical approach to how the other side sees it. So, you know, some people like putting yourself in their shoes. To me, that requires a lot of feeling. You don't necessarily need to share the feelings to be able to identify them.

Okay.

I've always liked, for me personally, see it from their perspective. To me, there's less feeling there and more observation. And our definition of empathy is being able to completely identify how the other side sees it and then articulate it back to them word for word. Summary, insight in analysis. What somebody reading between the lines, what are they expressing they don't realize they're expressing? And then you begin to understand how it's analysis.

Now, let me ask a question in. In the political world, and correct me if I'm wrong, the guy that I have watched, who has mastered this is Vivek Ramaswamy. I have seen this guy, and you've probably seen it too, where he will debate someone who is as far opposed to his view as possible, and he manages to get these people to have rational conversations with him. Is that what he's doing? Is this what he's doing when he does that?

Well, there's a. Yeah, there's a great amount of emotional intelligence in there. And. And that's the great test, you know, to get somebody that completely disagrees with you if they suddenly feel you're articulating their perspective, suddenly they feel heard and they calm down, they become rational. I mean, that's one of the magic powers of empathy. If I start outlining how you see things without agreeing with it, then you're kind of shocked and it really deactivates your attack mechanisms and makes you think.

And you said something really important there. I don't necessarily have to agree with you. I just have to let you know that I hear you, that I'm understanding what you're saying.

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, when I, when I ended up collaborating with the guys at Harvard, a bunch of, you know, brilliant people up there, was when I came across Bob Mnookin's book Beyond Reason, principally a negotiation book for attorneys. And the second chapter was the tension between empathy and assertion. And I remember thinking like, well, from my point of view, there is no tension. I think Bob wrote that chapter to get your, get your attention, to make you read it. But his definition of empathy said not only do you not have to agree with the other side, you don't even gotta like them. And I'm like, yeah, that's exactly what we've been doing in the FBI hostage negotiation. You want me to influence Al Qaeda, you want me to like that guy? That ain't never gonna happen. I still gotta influence it.

So, so is empathy the precursor to influence?

Yeah, yeah, I, I think that's very well said. It's a great precursor to quite a number of things. It's a precursor to compassion. It's not compassion you don't have to have any compassion for, but it's a, it can be a precursor to it. It can be, it's a precursor to influence. It triggers your ability to influence. You know what we found out since is it triggers chemical reactions in your brain that's going to change how you see me.

And it's changing in my brain or it's changing in the person I'm talking to.

Changing the person you're talking to. Now as you're applying it, you tend to really kick your reason into gear. So this is kind of two way analytical process that goes on. But the chemical changes are triggered in the person you're talking to, not in you.

So from a practical standpoint for listeners here, so our clients are entrepreneurs, Our listeners are entrepreneurs and they're dealing with big retailers and stuff. Let's say one of our clients or one of our listeners is in a negotiation or wants to be in a negotiation with a big retailer. And they want that big retailer to bring their product into their store. But the retailer is saying, no, I don't think, I don't think this product makes sense for my store. I don't think this, this is good for me right now. How would, how would we use this? Because where I see the value here is keeping that conversation alive right at this point. Because the buyers just said, I'm sorry, this isn't working for me.

Right?

So how can I use empathy to keep that conversation going so that I've got a few more minutes to discuss this?

All right? So I probably say, all right. So your real challenge here is you've got square footage in your store. You got to maximize and, and you're going to be held accountable if it goes bad. Now, there's a certain percentage of things that are working for you guys in the store and a certain percentage of things that are not working for you. And every time you bring something in that soaks up square footage and doesn't work, it puts your neck a little bit more on a chopping block, right? As of right now, you ain't happy with how hard your neck's on a chopping block already. And the last thing you need is it to be on the chopping block a little bit more. So you got to be super cautious because you make the wrong move here, you commit to the wrong marriage, you get locked up into a long term relationship that you can't live with, you're going to be out on the street.

Okay, Now I'm playing the part of the buyer right now. I'm going to, my head's going to be nodding with you, right? I'm going to be giving you some, some visual agreement here that. Yep, that's exactly right. If I bring your product in and it doesn't sell, I'm the one that's going to pay for it, right?

So then I'm going to say, so it seems like you got some criteria for what you're looking for that instead of exposing your neck more is going to make you look better and it's going to work. Because what we really need here in this conversation, if I can step back from a little bit, I need to find out what's really driving the other guys know. Is it that they don't see that it fits a criteria? Is it they're overwhelmed in the moment and they haven't had a chance to look and do the comparables? You know, a lot of people are taking meetings, especially corporate execs, like, these dudes are drowned. These, you know, guys and girls, they're drowning in decisions. And, and so if a decision could cost me my job and I haven't had the time to analyze it, then what I'm going to do is not make the decision. You know, there's a lot of data out there that indicates that more people are making decisions to avoid getting fired than they are to get promoted.

Yes, number one job is keeping your job.

Number one jobs keeping your job. So that, that makes them risk averse. Now they risk averse because they've actually lined up the criteria or they risk averse because they're overwhelmed at the moment, they haven't had an opportunity, opportunity to do so. Or, and if you want to bet, the better bet is probably they're a little overwhelmed and they don't want to let somebody sneak anything past. Now most of their conversations that they're having, people are sucking up their bandwidth in the conversation. So we, you know, we teach people there's a, there's a very specific technique called the label. I can say what are your criteria for what you're looking for in the store? Now that in general terms is a great what question? It's deferential. If you're going to ask a question, it should be what or how it feels good to the other side. People like to be asked what questions. The problem with that, the what question is it triggers in depth thinking that somebody's really only fully capable of answering once or twice, usually mid morning. As soon as they start to get tired, their ability to engage in the in depth critical thinking that, that calls for just begins to vanish.

So let me ask you a question. You just brought up an interesting point. If, if I've got a meeting coming up with a major buyer, do I want to push for an AM meeting.

In general terms, both you and them, in very general terms, you're going to be at your peak thinking at about 10 each of you and about 10am your time. Interesting reasons. There's circadian rhythm, there's how much sleep you got last night, there's how much you dealt with in the day, there's your diet. And there is important point of fact, something referred to as decision fatigue, that you only have the ability to make so many decisions in a given day.

And we have to remember that buyer by 4 o' clock might be on their 15th meeting.

Exactly. You know, it's, and it's kind of this whole thing like if, if you're in jail and you're coming up for parole, you want to come up for, for parole in the Morning as opposed to at the end of the day because the other side's going to be more open. So now your dilemma is what if you can't get around it? What if there's, there's no change? So the crazy thing is if I say to you it seems like you've got criteria, that's not going to tire you out as much as what is your criteria. We're finding this on a regular basis and we teach people. All right, so you're going to have a great question. You're going to want to ask what or how question, what's the corresponding label? And then based on time of day and your sensitivity of the person, you got to be able to toggle back and forth is how you're going to pose it. And if I catch you at 4:30 in the afternoon, I'm probably not gonna, you're not gonna feel like I've asked you a single question, but I'm gonna get a lot out of you.

All right, so if I'm dealing with a buyer, you're nailing this really good. The buyer's concerns are going to be a. I don't want to bring in a bad product that underperforms and I'm going to get in trouble for it. So what is the buyer want to see? Well, the buyer, the buyer needs to have reassurance. And I'm assuming that that reassurance of the amount of data or the amount of reassurance that buyer needs needs to be a much greater amount of information or feeling than what it takes him to say no.

Yeah, usually. Yeah, because it's easy to say no. Just say no and it goes away.

Now, am I better off to talk to this buyer in facts and figures or am I better off to try to talk to them more in a story model?

All right, so I'm gonna go facts and figures. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna add a sort of a third category on you. And it's something we refer to as proof of life. And it's an emotional intelligence trigger. So after I've laid out for the guy, you know what I said before, you know, you're worried that you're going to make a wrong decision. You know how much the square footage in your store is worth and you all know that you've already got a bunch of stuff in there that's underperforming and you lock into long term contracts. You can't get these people out and so you're even more desperate to make the right decision. I'm going to make sure we're on track. And then I'm going to say, here's something with all these choices I don't understand. Why are you talking to me? And then I'm going to shut up. Because there are facts and figures that are important to you. And your order of importance might not be the same order of importance as me. So I got to know what your priorities are. And this is the one and only time you should ever be asking somebody, why? Because why is this sort of magical, surgical, emotional intelligence button that you only press to get somebody to defend talking to you? Now, I'm not going to say, you know, why did you put that in that product in your store? You're going to feel attacked if I'm not talking about my problem. But if I say, you know, why you considering put me in your store, you're not going to feel attacked. It's going to trigger your defense, correction, opportunity to show how smart you are, and you're going to find it irresistible. And then you're going to give me the facts and figures and criteria that you're looking for. Now, I can tailor my conversation, whether it be facts and figures or even a story maybe, based on what you've told me. I got three stories in mind. I need to know which one is the best. And you just, you just told me which one of my three is going to go. Or maybe you just told me that what's number five on my list of importance of facts is number one on your list.

So my question might be, what? Like, something like. So if you could help me out or let me understand what got you to first consider having us, normally it would be what.

But in this instance, the choice of the word why is even more effective.

So why. Why are you considering us in the first place?

Exactly. And you gotta. You gotta say it with complete curiosity, because curiosity is impossible to resist. Like, you sit me down with anybody, and if I'm. If I'm unrelenting in my curiosity, you're going to be shocked what I get out of these people.

So I get what? That this is really good, Justin. I get what we're doing here. Because if we were to talk to the buyer and say, well, why are you considering me at all? Because we're having a meeting, right? So if we got to the meeting, you already looked at my product. You've already looked.

They looked at it, right?

They've had to look at it at some level. At some level, they've looked at it to set a meeting because it's too easy for them to just not take a meeting. So we got to the meeting. So we got to the meeting. You looked at my product, you looked at some of my materials. So he's right. Something got us to the meeting. Now, it could be I don't have a product that does exactly what yours does. It could be I have a product in that category, but I'm concerned that supplier is not doing a great job keeping us inventoried. It could be the product I have, like, that is been having a lot of recalls or a lot of defects. You're right. There's an answer there.

Yeah. And you try to tease it out in a way that they don't regret telling you. And also when you ask somebody why about you, besides you being curious? Curious. It triggers, you know, if you act like you don't understand when they answer you, they're correcting you, they're mentoring you. And these are things that. That when people do it, it feels so good in the moment. The chances that they reveal something to you that they would otherwise not tell you are very high.

So once I get them to tell me why they're considering me, so they've told me why they're considering me. Well, you know, I originally looked at the product and I liked the packaging, or I thought you guys had some interesting features in your product versus what we currently have. I get that kind of answer out of them. Where do I go next?

Well, I'm probably going to go. People are far more. Eddie's talking about barriers than they are about reasons for. And so I'm going to focus now down on. All right, so what's, you know, what's getting in the way here? What's stopping us from moving forward? Because people can talk about their barriers without feeling they're committing themselves. And to some degree, they're challenging you. Where. If. When you say, well, what are the next steps? How do I get in? You know, we match on all these. How do I get into the store now? Now that. Now they're backed up again. Oh, I don't know. I don't know if I made an agreement. I don't know what the ramifications are. I haven't thought about my problems. If you switch to the barriers, then now you're actually in implementation mode, as if the deal was going to go forward. You need to know what the real barriers are, and you need an honest answer about those.

And.

And so it's triggering the conversation away where they can be honest with you about problems without feeling they're making the commitment, that's when people are most honest, when they don't feel like there's a commitment in the answer.

So in most cases, when we're dealing with a retail buyer, just as you aptly figured out, every square inch of that store is accounted for. For you to put my box of stuff in, you have to throw someone else's box of stuff out, probably. So my concern as a buyer is always going to be, can this new brand, can you outsell the box that I'm going to throw out? And the thing about the box that I have to throw out, I already know what it can do. So I know it can generate a half a million dollars a year in sales. Not the number I want, but I know it'll do a half a million. So typically, where that buyer wants to go, that buyer needs to be convinced that if they get rid of this box A and they put in my box B, my box B is going to make them more money. Now, let's assume for a minute I have no track record to prove that because I've not been in a retail store, I'm trying to get in a retail store. What are the things that I can do to make them feel comfortable that I'm going to follow through with my commitments? Because what this is really about, in a first case scenario, I'm coming in, I'm showing you my new product, and I'm telling you I'm going to do all this marketing, I'm going to do all this advertising, I'm going to do all these promotions to drive traffic to your store. But that buyer is conditioned and used to being lied to by half the people who walked in his door today because people came in and said, oh, yes, we're going to run television ads and we're going to do radio ads and we're going to do this. And they don't do it. And now the buyer's left holding the bag because I said yes to this thing, because Chris promised me $3 million with the TV commercials and he never did it. What are the ways that I can build trust with them so that they'll believe me when I tell them I'm going to do it. And let me add to that, folks, right now, if you go to a retail buyer and you promise something, you better do it. Because if you don't, you got one sale and you're going to get kicked out. I'm just going to tell you right now, if you lie to them, you're getting kicked out. So, Chris, how Do I, how do I convince them that I'm telling the truth? And by the way, I am telling the truth because I'm really going to do it.

All right, so the first thing that everybody listening to this needs to do is go back and rewind and take notes on what you just said, because that's the precursor to what you're going to say next. So you're going to say, effect what you just said. You know, you got all these people come in, they've given you all these lies, they made all these promises, and you've been lied to so many times that you, it's like a reverse Pinocchio effect. You wish that their noses would grow every time they lied there. And you walk down the street, you'd see 50 people with four foot long noses.

And right now you and I have a universal truth going on because I'm again nodding my head saying, yep, I get lied to every day for a L. Yeah.

And so then I'm going to say, how do you want me to track this step by step? How do we, how do we track it? How do we make sure we're on track? How do we continue to talk with each other so that we can fix anything that's off track? What you're doing is you're, you're inviting them into a collaboration of implementation and you're courageous about it because you, and in point of fact, you want to be tracked. You want to keep track. You want to be on top of your data. You don't want nobody if you, unless you're lying, you don't want to fail. So. And no, as they say, no battlefield full, no battle plan fully survives encounter with the battle ground. You don't know plan. I know I'm butchering what Eisenhower said. Like, you as a supplier, want to be on top of what's going on so that you can make adjustments as it's going on to ensure your success. If you're gonna, if you're gonna drop it and assume that everything is gonna be wonderful without you monitoring or paying attention to it. I mean, you're, you're on Hopium. And hope is a drug, it's not a strategy. So you, you want a joint strategy to ensure success so that in, in three months, nobody's surprised, you can't go, well, it's gonna take time. No, that ain't the answer. The answer is how are we going to stay on top of this to ensure that our strategy is going to work and how we're going to adjust when we Find out the inevitable glitches that are going to be there. Now you, now you got a collaborative effort of success between the two of you. You're somebody that the other side can trust. Of course things are going to go hit glitches, hit speed bumps, unintended consequences, whatever analogy you want. The issue that I want with anybody I do business with is how we're going to jointly track this and make the adjustments so that we don't go down with the ship.

I like where Chris is going here, Justin, because think about that. I'm meeting with the buyer. The buyer's used to being lied to. I tell the buyer I've got this entire ad campaign. I'm running television commercials, I'm running radio commercials. I'm doing web stuff, whatever the case is. And I like what he said. Convince the buyer that not only are you going to do this, but you're so committed to doing this that you want him to have a way of monitoring it because you want to show him how you're doing it. Now, we know that buyers are over, always overwhelmed with data.

Yes.

So one of the things I would be concerned with this is me. I'm probably asking the buyer, how can I keep you updated on our marketing programs and keep you up to date on everything we're doing without me overwhelming you with too much information? Because I, I don't want. I don't want to crowd your day up with a bunch of emails, but I want you to know that we're doing everything plus that we're committing to. So what would be the best way for me to provide you, what's the easiest way for you to get that information so that you see we're executing on everything that we agreed upon today. Does that make sense, Chris?

Well, your gut instinct is really good because here the sub nuances of how you laid that out, that were perfect because you asked the same question two different ways. The first was with how, and the second one was with what. In each one of those, asking the same question slightly differently gives them time to think. It triggers their perspective on the same issue from two different directions. How creates a certain. The how question creates a certain type of thinking. The what creation question creates a slightly different type of thinking. Now it comes alive in their head. So asking it the same thing two different ways is perfect in getting the other side to feel comfortable, to feel deferred to, to feel in control and actually come up with a great answer.

And I want them to know I'm. I'm respecting their importance and Their time. I don't want to overwhelm you with data, but I want to give you the right data so that you're comfortable that we're executing on everything.

Yeah, Amen. Yeah, exactly. You and you got a gut instinct for realizing what the potential problem is. You're going to be overwhelmed. You loop that into the question.

How would this, how would this work with. Let's switch on the buyer for a minute and let's move this to vendors dealing with a supplier, with their supplier and. Because most of the people in the CPG world are hiring other people to make their products.

Yes.

What is the problem? Well, the problem there is I'm not getting the product on time and the products more money than I need it, than I really need it to be. That's the two issues on my side. Now as the vendor, I'm trying to lower my cost of manufacturing and speed up the time that I get products. So flipping this to the other side, how would that empathy work?

You got to get them in to come to Jesus, if you will. Again, you start out, look, I know you guys are overwhelmed. I know you're doing everything you can to stay afloat. I know that you don't intentionally fail anybody. I know that it was not your intention to deliver late or, you know, whatever problems that you're proceeding with. So what's their perspective? What's their point of view? How do they see this? You say what they're thinking to quiet the voice in the other person's head. You got to say what the voice in their head is saying. And it's a fear based defensive voice.

That's a really good comment right there. I like that. Quiet the voice in their head. You have to say what the voice is saying. I like that.

Yeah. Yeah. Actually, you know, it occurred to me a long time ago when we were talking about negotiating with schizophrenics. Schizophrenic can't hear you because he's. There's a voice in his head that's talking differently. So like, all right, say what that voice is saying and now you're in line and they can listen. So, and in point of fact, people's fears are almost, almost makes them schizophrenic. It's a voice in their head that they can't hear you. So you start out to get them dialed in and then you're going to ask some hard questions, but they're not going to feel hard. And one of those questions is, if we don't fix this, how can I continue with you, you know, inviting them into collaboration, get them in a place where they're going to listen with the application of empathy. What are they thinking? What's interfering with their thought process in this conversation? Let me quiet that voice and then ask him the ultimately a fair question. And it, it's doing it in a way where you just seem like a straight shooter. You just seem honest. You don't seem like a jerk, a threatening guy. Now, you can't start out with that course because you haven't level them out yet. If they're failing you and you got to call them on the phone, you get them on the phone, they know what the problem is. They're just hoping that it's going to magically go away. So you invite them into collaboration and ultimately ask them the fair question, if we don't fix this, how, how can we continue? And it feels differential again, because the how question feels differential. It forces them to approach the legitimacy of the question. But you demonstrated empathy would put you in a position to ask the question.

So the old way of negotiation, the old way of negotiation, let's say that I'm, I've got a supplier and suppliers cost charging me $5 a widget and the number in my head and on my books really means I need to get that $5 down to $4.50. So the old way of negotiation is I'm going to go after $4.

And.

I'm going to try to meet in the middle because I really, I really, I'm looking for 450. So I'm going to chase $4 with the idea that I'm going to let this other, the other side win something. Does that still hold water today or is that really the wrong way to go about something?

Well, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't call it wrong. I would call it less effective. Because first of all, you don't know that you couldn't have gotten. If you want to, you know, you could have gotten $4.10. So meat in the middle actually cuts you off from a lot of success that you might have got. I mean, you don't know for sure what the other side could do. And as soon as you start naming price and you're hoping to meet in the middle, you're actually cutting yourself off from a lot of success. And then it's the only on the other side only feels somewhat good about the win, which it ain't a great win for them. It wasn't their idea. It was something that they got pushed into Forced into. So to me, there's. There's a. There's a better way.

Okay.

And I'm gonna. I'm gonna try to. First of all, empathy. What's what empathy is. What's the other side's emotional reaction? Now this. This seems pretty mean, but if I want a lower price from somebody, I'm going to start out by saying, like, look, you're going to think I'm a jerk. I got heartbreaking news for you. You are not going to like any of this conversation. Now, what are they thinking right now?

Well, to me, you're doing a form of price conditioning, right?

You.

You are setting the table that there's a bunch of bad news coming.

There's a bunch of bad news. And on that list is potentially the contract's going to get canceled.

Correct. Because you're. It's a gray area right now. And you could be firing me. You could be going out of business. Who knows?

That's. That's the first thought, that this is all gonna go away. Because I can count on the amygdala taking you to the extreme. And so when I say, you know, I. And I. I'm not pulling any punches either. I. When I say I got heartbreaking news, then you are starting to prep for the worst.

Okay?

Not gonna like any part of this conversation. So I want to design this conversation where not only can I get the best possible price out of you, I don't want you to resent it. You know, there's. There's going to be an emotional increase here of positivity. I'm slowly going to get you to a better place. I'm going to start by taking you to the worst possible scenario. All right? Then I'm going to say the way things currently are my problem. And it's my problem. It's not your problem. My problem is the pricing we have does not work. Right.

I can't make any money at this price.

Yeah. And so now you're a little bit relieved because I didn't fire you. You know, I didn't tell you the game is over. Like it. It. And on. On a grand scale of things, you just went from none to slim. Right?

So I just went from, holy crap, we're losing the account to, okay, I'm not losing the account yet.

We got a shot here. Yeah. So I'm gonna say, look, no, no, no bs, don't mess with me. You got to tell me what's the best you could do, and then we'll have a discussion from there. But my Goal is that this is the moment that we will look back on in 15 years saying this is where we turned everything around. Because what's stopping and now step back from this. The big thing that's really stopping you from coming in with a rock bottom price is longevity. Any relationship, the longer it lasts, which is profitable, is more valuable long term than it is short term. And I need to get you out of law at a short term thinking into long term thinking. Now in point of fact, when I say that to people, I do want to a 20 year relationship that is phenomenal for both of us because it's, you know, like it's expensive to fire employees, it's expensive to fire vendors, it's expensive to fight, lose any relationship. The replacement of that relationship is expensive. And so in point of fact, I want everybody I do business with to think long term. That that's not, that is my intention. I'm not, I'm not looking to maximize cutting your throat today because I want to be in business with you for a long time. So what I'm really looking for is, is you not looking to kill me today either because it's my goal to be a partner with you for a long time. And I'm going to ask for your number.

Should I ask them how I can help them get a better price or am I opening myself up to, to giving things up?

No, I, I would now you, now you're talking about what goes around the price and, and in point of fact, prices turn. And so I would, I would express that same sentiment probably in a different way because I like labels. I mean everybody on my team, we can work our way entirely through negotiation only labeling. And I might say it seems like there's some ways that would make it easier for you to give me a better price.

It's funny because everybody's always complaining how you shouldn't be labeling people or labeling things.

Right.

Yeah, it's, it's. How are you using the concept? Are you name calling or are you stimulating thinking?

So because I'm sitting there thinking, what could I do now? I'm, I'm the vendor or I'm the buyer. At this particular case, I could speed up payment. You know, what if I paid you in 10 days instead of 60 days? What if I made a longer term commitment to more units? What if I guaranteed that if you bought the product for me right now we supply Walgreens. But if you get me the right price, I can go to Walmart and you'll be my vendor for Walmart. Which will triple the amount of business we're doing. But I can't go call on Walmart until I have a better number because I know Walmart's never going to take the number I have. So I mean, should I throw these ideas out or should I wait for them to come up with these ideas?

No. First of all, probably you're going to get to those ideas at some point in time. So I want to find out what's in the other side's head first. Because, you know, if, if I come up with it, it was my idea and they're only so, so with it. If they come up with it and they happen to hit on something I wanted to do, then they own it. I go, yeah, it's a great idea. You know, I want you to own it, I want you to feel involved. And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna, first I'm gonna look for information from you. I want to make myself smarter on the possibilities. And then if there's still some possibilities they haven't either hit on, you know, and these are black swans, they get stuff they haven't told you about. You got stuff you haven't told them about, and you, then you might say, is it a ridiculous idea? If we're brainstorming for me to throw out a couple concepts now you can start tossing that stuff.

Would it make sense for me to tease it out? And what I mean by that is, you know, we're paying you guys $5 right now for what we're selling at Meijer and Walgreens. But my team is, is really focused on getting into Walmart and that's one of the reasons we're talking today, because Walmart are brutal negotiators that are never going to take the price that I'm currently getting, that I'm getting from you. So is that a more under the table way of letting, of teasing them that, oh my God, Walmart's out there? That's going to be three times more volume without me trying to dangle it.

Yeah, well, it's predicated on the premise that you're not lying. And I know that that's your approach.

I don't believe in not lying, so I don't. I think you need to be straight with people when you're negotiating with them.

Yeah.

Because otherwise it's all going to fall apart in six months right now.

Yeah. And there are a bunch of people out there, they're gonna, that are gonna dangle some nonsense out there and it's a total lie. So you got, you got to assume that that's been, that game's been run on them to some degree. Your entire approach is going to put you in a position as to whether or not they're going to believe you. And you can talk about how you're going to show that you're not, you're not full of it. And simultaneously, you know, Walmart is this big giant retailer that everybody both loves and fears. You know, you want to get into Walmart and you're scared what they're gonna, how they're gonna hammer you over the price. So there's no way that's not being thrown out a lot. Any of the big box retailers, any of the big outlets, people are throwing that around. Yes, do it, and only if you can deliver, because it's gonna come out.

What if I presented it as a collaboration? In as much as Chris, one of the goals that we want to have for this product is we think it's time that we go to Walmart. We think we have an opportunity at Walmart and I'm looking to get your input because I know we can't do it at the pricing we're at. So do you think, as our supplier, do you think it would be good for us to go to Walmart and how can we get there? Because we know we can't get there with this pricing.

I love collaborations. That's where all business ought to be done. And if I may, I would define collaboration versus cooperation. And collaboration is where both sides are not afraid to represent their best interests. And cooperation is when you kind of give in to the other side. I don't think anybody should give it. I think both sides should always represent their best interest. The only tweak I would put on that is like, I'm, like I'm way into no, is the answer. I, you know, I don't do yes. I don't do yes. So instead of saying, you know, is it a good idea for us to present to Walmart collaboratively? I'd say, is it a ridiculous idea for us to collaboratively take this to Walmart? Mark, I just know the psychological advantages of triggering a no versus triggering a yes. It's just, there's just too much there.

So tell us the advantage. What's the advantage in triggering a no than a yes? Because. Because that goes against all of the old sales tactics that we've been taught on getting compliance sets and yes sets from people and a thing in motion stays in motion and, and getting people to say yes, yes, yes. So you're going against years and years of sales training here, which is exactly the point, okay?

Exactly the point. Because it's years and years of sales training globally, human beings are, yes, battered. And because it's global and been going on for years, the hucksters, the liars, the snake oil salesman, the people that are saying like, how would you like to live in a five star resort and go and live there for nothing? Like this whole, the yes thing has been everybody, everybody on earth has been bamboozled over yes. So unfortunately it becomes a Pavlovian response because everybody, everybody's been hustled with the word yes. And so as a Pavlovian response, everybody feels when they say no that they're safe and protected.

And the yes makes you feel manipulated.

Manipulated. What's the hidden trap? There's this guy coerced me. It was. And they don't even know for sure. It's done so much that people don't really even know that that was what happened. But again, it's a Pavlovian response. The dog doesn't know. It's salivating because the bells ringing so opposite is true with the word no.

I'm going to give people some history here. Some of you aren't old enough to remember this. When I was a kid we used to have door to door encyclopedia salesman.

Definitely not old enough.

This was a thing in the encyclopedia salesman came to your door and he would knock on the door and the first thing he would say, are you the lady of the house? If yes, go to the next question. If no, is she home? If she says yes, do you have children in the house? If yes, go to the next question. If no, go to the next house. Are you interested in your children getting a better education? If yes, go to the next question. And notice the questions start to become ridiculous because this was the old Encyclopedia Britannica sales pitch because who's going to say no, I really want my kids to be idiots. The next question would you be interested in knowing how your children could have a much better education and it won't cost you anything? That was the Encyclopedia Britannica pitch. And that's a lot. Chris, I don't know if you know that history, but that's where a lot of this yes stuff came from. It was that constant flip of agreement and agreement and agreement and getting people. Now ultimately, 27 yeses later, the encyclopedia guys walking out of your house with a check for $700 in 1960.

That'S a lot of money, wasn't it?

I mean my goodness, that's $10,000. Yeah.

Nuts. Yeah.

But, Chris, did you grow up with a set of encyclopedias?

You bet I did. Somebody. Yes, my mom. Right into that.

And there was one for the entire Alphabet, right?

Yeah.

Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Remember that? I think we may have ended up with a couple of those sets because mom wanted her kids to have a good education and.

And that's where this came from. But I like where Chris is going here because I think there's. I believe there's probably an unconscious bias toward that. Yes. Where people know they're being hustled, but they can't say no because I'll look stupid.

Yeah. And it's so pervasive that I got people now saying, well, I don't disagree, because they're just scared to say yes. They just been walked down that path too many times.

I like where this thinking is, Justin, that saying no feels safer.

Yeah.

Everybody feels safe when they say no.

Well. And that goes back to what you said earlier, Chris, and I wrote it down in my notes. Here it is. Help is ensuring the other person feels in control.

Yeah.

So all of this is about ensuring that the entire time they feel that they're in control where they are or not, they have to feel that way. And to your point, no. Is I feel in control now. I put a stance. Right. I'm not being walked down anywhere. It's very interesting.

You got me thinking here, Chris, because now you've got me thinking about how could we. How could we use this technique even in copywriting for ads? Well, what's funny is empowering the viewer to actually feel comfortable by saying no.

Right. Well, this is the first thing. The first thing that when I read. When I read the book, this book that grabbed me immediately was exactly what you talked about the very beginning, which was the concept that empathy is about understanding. Understanding. Empathy is not compassion. It's not an emotion. In fact, it's the exact opposite of an emotion is the concept of being able to understand the other individual, separate. So therefore, you can have a true discussion, gain alignment, and get to collaboration. Because until you have understanding, collaboration cannot exist. True collaboration. Right. And. And from an advertising perspective, and the stories are great. And by the way, anybody, if you have not read the book, I. I will tell you right now, an amazing read. It's. There are different allegories, so you're just going to want to go to the next story, a few pages, and you're like, okay, what's the next one? So I'm telling you, you're not going to be able to lay it down. But in advertising, this is exactly what we are continually telling all of our clients and telling our listeners here. Is that what we do? It all starts with everything you wrote in here. It's about understand who you're talking to. Right. Nothing else matters. You must have the empathy to understand who you're talking to to therefore be able to collaborate with your customer. Because that's what this is about. Right.

So you're saying Chris and I. So you're saying Chris and I need to collaborate on writing a book on copywriting now.

Yes, because it's true. Right. What's the mark? What is the ultimate stage that everybody wants to get you with their customer? Right. It's advocacy. You can only get to advocacy if you have your true win. Win that both self interests are being met. Right. So that's. That's what this is all about. And just from advertising, that's just doing at scale. That's what that is. As opposed to one on one. Like the conversation we're having here.

This really has me thinking now. Now I'm thinking about a whole different way to do copywriting. To empower people to say no, which is really a yes, effectively.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, 100%.

This is. This is fascinating. We gotta. We're gonna have to go write a book together now, Chris.

I'm down, man. I love your stuff too. So I'm down. This is.

Because this is. This is real. This is. I want the audience to know you're actually hearing some breakthrough ideas here on. On communicating.

Yeah.

Because this change. This changes. This literally can change the posture of how you would write communications, how you would write advertising.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

By getting into. Getting into that. That empathy with that customer and figuring out how to empower them and yet get them to influence them to the decision you want them to make.

Right. Because you can still get to that recognition because you understand them, but the recognition gets them to the no as opposed to the yes that we have been trained to do. Right. We've been trained to write in. Yes. That. So you can still communicate with them and get them to the essentially, that's not you. And then they say, you're right, that's not me. Yep. See, I understand you. You do understand me. You get it. You get exactly where I'm at. And it can be even more powerful than the yes set of. Huh? Yep.

Yep.

So down the road.

So if we were. Chris, if we were doing a typical. We're jumping into copywriting now. If we were doing a Typical direct response TV commercial selling senior citizens. That spot would probably start with, Are you over 65? Are you currently on Medicare? Do you suffer with diabetes? That would be a very typical beginning of a commercial selling a senior citizen a Medicare covered diabetic program.

Right.

Is there because they're saying, are you over 65? Yes. Are you currently on Medicare? Yes. Do you suffer with diabetes? Yes. Is that worth flipping or is that okay to just let that go? Because it is so obvious.

I don't think the decision question, where you're going to get to here, I would definitely flip. But as see in person, those, the defenses are triggered much more now in television it's a little bit less because there's, there's a lack of personalization. I, I'd probably still duck the yeses. I'd, you know, I'd be tempted to say, all right, so this information is going to be for you if the following describes you and I might hit those three just to stay away from the yeses. I don't see it particularly harmful in this moment. Now, the decision question is got to be a no, which, whatever, however you say it, you know, are you against finding out how you could solve this problem? It's that simple. On a, on a TV commercial, the yes momentum is not as harmful.

Would it make sense to flip it around? Would it make sense to flip around and say the following information is not for people under 65?

Oh, that's interesting. I like that.

So would it make sense to eliminate rather than include.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's, that's, that, that in my head that creates a, another trigger which is a little more interesting, a little more intriguing potentially because it's different, more attention getting.

So the following information is not for people under 65 and not for people currently on Medicare.

Yeah, I like, I like that a lot. I do like that a lot. Interesting, interesting twist on what your supercomputer gut instinct came up with. Supercomputer.

Because it's a different twist than raise your hand.

Right, right.

Because you're not forcing me to say yes. You've taken that yes out.

Right.

And I get your point. Your point is saying yes can, can, can bring up a visceral response. So if I did say the following information is not for people under 65 and not for people you know on Medicare, then I would probably, I wouldn't be saying yes in my head. I would be telling myself I'm not in that group.

Well, and I guess my question to you, Mark, so because I know Chris is here, but in my mind, I'm going back to, you know, your training of Batman and thinking to myself that the way that is written, the knot, is an abstract. So therefore, what my brain actually hears is person of 65. I actually don't even read the rest. So it's, it's, it's not. It's not about asking the person to answer a question. It's what their brain will actually take in is the identifier, which is who they are and what they are by using the word not. Am I on the right track?

Well, not is certainly an abstract.

Right.

Because I cannot not be something. Right. So if I am not that thing, if you were, if that was in a commercial, I would already tune it out. Because you're right, I'm not that. But if I am that, my brain will identify with my age because I know what my age is. So I'm going to hear that as opposed to the whole phrase.

Or even if you said, you know, those under 65 and not on Medicare need not pay attention to the following information.

Yeah, there's several different ways you could test that approach. And obviously, as you're throwing it out there, you probably want to test it several ways and see which one, you know, catches more people.

So this is interesting, Chris. I know we came to talk about the book, but now I think we've. We've come up with a whole new methodology of, of how to start doing copywriting.

Amen. I love it. I love it. I'm actually very interested in pursuing collaboration on this.

This is very interesting. It is because how can, how can we bring people. The goal is. So I always tell people, the goal of good advertising is to help people overcome their own biases and their own fears so that we can lead them to a decision which will make their life better. We should never be trying to sell people things that won't improve their life. And I don't believe we can. I don't believe we're going to sell, you know, air conditioners to people in Alaska in January.

This just.

It's. There's no need there.

Right, right.

And if you're trying to do that, then you're not. You're not a marketer, you're a con man at that point.

Right.

That makes. That's. And we're not into supporting con man. But knowing that advertising and communications is noble when it's done properly, I don't think there's any problem using the best science and the best information for being able to influence people to make good decisions. Because the reality is people, the number one thing people are afraid of is change. And just telling people, you shouldn't do what you're doing anymore with product A, you should be doing it with product B. I am asking them to change. I am asking people to make a change in their life. Even if it's as simple as switch spaghetti sauces. I'm still asking you to take a risk. And I may still ask you to change your behavior. Yeah, but what if I'm bringing you a better spaghetti sauce?

Exactly.

That's healthier, that doesn't have sugar in it, that doesn't have additives in it.

Yeah.

So I, I think there's something here. I mean, we've, we're literally creating a new way of writing copy on a podcast.

That's a lot of fun. That's pretty enjoyable.

I mean, Mark, the other thing we always talk about, right, is that real effective advertising is having a one on one conversation at scale. Right. One, you've done the creative so well, that individual feels like you are literally having that conversation only with them. That's when you've done your job. So all of these techniques and tools still still have their place. They still function. They're still very powerful in what we do. Again, even as it relates to advertising and marketing. Right. You talk about just walking through this conversation here. Think about the technology that we have at our disposal now where we can put a pixel on you and we can, we could literally map out this conversation in media that Chris laid out for us. These, these negotiation techniques, I want to put them that way. But as he walked us through these conversations, right, we could do those ads and literally walk someone through that. We do their email flow and walk them through it. Why? Because we have so much control now and so much information now and how we communicate. And it's not to, it's not to have those negative memes again. It's getting back to that point of collaboration. But now we can help guide them through it.

Now, Chris, Black Swan group, your group. Besides, first I want people, I want to tell people they need to go get both books 100%. They shouldn't get one book. They need to get both books. So you need to get, never split the difference. And then get the empathy book, which you have right there. You can hold up, let everybody see it again. And Black Swan group, what type of sessions or programs do you have that people can attend?

Well, we've got, we got online training, live online training. We get coaching. We're actually much more into coaching than I ever thought we would be. We're coaching people through great deals constantly. March St. Patrick's Day 2025, we're going to hold our first large conference Negotiation Mastery Summit in Louisville. Really pick Louisville because it's going to be a fun place to be. And we're also launching a bourbon. The difference at the same time frame and it's being made in Louisville. So we thought let's have the. Let's have a big conference in Louisville. And it is going to be amazing. It is where you want to go if you want to make a quantum leap in your negotiation skills.

Which is interesting because we're where you want to go if you want to make a quantum leap in selling bourbon.

Well, look at that. There's an overlap of interest. Yeah.

So I see a connection here.

Yeah, there's a connection. There's mutual. Mutual interest.

So how can people, how can people find out about signing up for it?

Okay, just go to the website Black Swan. B L a c k s w-a n ltd.com right at the header of the website is going to be information about the Negotiation Mastery Summit in Louisville. We're also going to help you get ready because if you don't make a quantum leap after how we've told you to prepare, then it's going to be on you. And this is, this is very much back to many of the points you're making. You got to want to make a quantum leap. You know that you can't. You can't sit idly and have somebody come by and wave a magic wand or matrix where they jam that probe in the back of your head and they download how and into your brain how you can fly a helicopter. So for you to make that quantum leap, because immersion training is where you go for the quantum leap, there's a variety of neuroscience reasons to back that up. Two days, your brain bakes. Overnight. The learning happens. So we're going to teach you how to lead up and get ready so that you make a quantum leap when you come to Nashville. So. Or Louisville. Right. So go to the website, sign up. We just, we just ran a webinar, specifically the seven steps, basically baby steps to making the quantum leap. We got a PDF, we're going to run another webinar. You want to invest in you, then we're going to show you how to maximize that investment.

Yeah. The reality is you don't rise to the occasion. You sink to your preparation.

Yeah.

Or to your training. And it's a two day program and you Just said something in the two day program. I want to back you up on that. So my hobby is racing cars. And one of the things I do is I teach people how to. I teach beginners how to race cars on several weekends in the summer. And we have a two day, Saturday, Sunday program. The difference in driving skill on Sunday is exponentially greater than the driving skill on Saturday. Yeah, and here's the reason. When we're teaching somebody how to drive on a racetrack for the first time in their life, they're drinking from a fire hose. We're talking about braking, speed, apex, looking for the flags. What do the flags mean? What do you do in the traffic? So much is coming at that student that think of it as they end the day with a very fragmented hard drive with information scattered everywhere. Then they go back to the hotel and they go to sleep for the night. And when you're sleeping, your brain does. What is the equivalence equivalent of defragging the hard drive like we used to do on hard drives in the old days. Sleep is where memory consolidation happens. They come back the following morning, we put them back in the car and all of a sudden they remember the track. They couldn't memorize the track on Saturday. Now Sunday morning, they now remember where the turns are. And then I remember where the flag stations are. And they now remember what the yellow flag means versus the green flag versus the red flag. Is that kind of where you're going with this? With this two day immersion where you're literally drinking from the fire hose on day one and you're doing memory consolidation and you're back for the next day 1000%? That really works, folks. I'm telling you, that really works. Last question. So I heard about this bourbon. Somebody told me about it I haven't heard of. So what's the story with the bourbon here?

Now.

You know Nick Nanton who did the documentary, right?

I thought I heard Nick was a part of it.

Yeah, Nick came up with this idea and he always has implementation in mind. So let's do a bourbon. We're going to call it the Difference. The tagline is going to be the world's first business. Bourbon never split, always share. So then we found we had to find a Sherpa. You know, Tensign Norgay is a Sherpa that got Edmund Hillary up Mount Everest. We had to find a Sherpa. Roy Milner been in and out of Louisville community. It's a closed society. Those guys know each other. And what Roy did was he found out that there were A large collection, cachet, catch whatever your term is, of barrels that Jim Rutledge, the original genius behind Four Roses, had made. He, he left Four Roses. He was working for another company. They said, Jim, what would you always want to make? What's your passion project? How do you want to lay this out? He put, he laid all these barrels in Bardstown Distillery and then the company that Jim was working for got sold and all these undiscovered treasures, these special mixtures that Jim always wanted to make, became available on the market because of some corporate buyouts and Jim was out of it. So Jim Rylance is not even making bourbon anymore. We got the last barrels that he had. We got. We're going to have about a four year run. We're going to have a blend. We're going to release four blends a year quarterly. A bourbon that you cannot get anywhere else ever.

Now where are you marketing it? Where are you going to sell it?

Complete subscription. We were. Nick is going to. We've got a couple of webinars coming up. People the opportunity to subscribe for it. You will not be able to get it on a retail basis if you're not subscribing. You can't get it unless you know somebody that has it, like me. And I'll give it to you, I'll give you a bottle.

Justin is, Justin is going to want to be subscribed.

Oh, absolutely. I'm already salivating.

Yeah, he's. He's a bourbon snob.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, I wear that proudly. Never mind. You say that.

No, I'm not saying it's a bad thing.

Yeah.

If you, if you're, if you, if you like bourbon, then you either know Four Roses or, you know, Jim Rutledge.

Oh, yeah.

You're going to want the stuff that he, he fantasized about. And then because of corporate things, you know, corporate shifts, we found some barrels.

That nobody else and a four year run. So after four years you're going to stop.

You know, I don't know what we're going to do. I hope I looking forward to having that problem.

Right. Well, the aging process for bourbon and the standards, you know, you're going to have to get started on that by, you know, know, basically you're soon actually, you want to make sure. Or I mean, you could always be.

No, we, we got the barrels. We've actually done several tastings.

Nice.

We get, we did the final tastings. We, we filmed it. It's going to be a separate film on the making of the difference and we all the investors are in. We're completely funded and we'll be shipping in the shipping in March.

That sounds amazing.

Well, folks, go to the website CPG Insiders. Look at the show notes or on the show notes on the episode you'll find links to the Black Swan group. We don't have links to the Bourbon yet though, right? Bourbons. You can't subscribe yet.

You know, we'll get, we'll get you guys a link.

So let's get a link to the Bourbon. Let's get a link that people could go pre subscribe to the Bourbon. Justin, you will be pre, pre subscribing to it and go get the books. Chris, thanks for being with us. Hopefully I'll see you soon.

The pleasure was mine. It always is.

And let's, let's talk about, let's talk about copywriting.

There we go.

Amen.

All right, that's it for today, folks. If you enjoyed today's show of CPG Insiders, make sure you go to wherever you get your podcast. Leave us a five star review. If you're not subscribing, hit the little subscribe button and then you'll never miss an episode. Also remember, you can also find the podcast on YouTube. Besides, for all of your favorite podcast platforms, we'll see you on the next episode of CPG Insiders. If you're looking to greatly increase sales on your CPG product, don't hesitate to contact us at Jekyll and Hyde Advertising and Marketing. By the way, the only advertising agency with a guaranteed result. Just go to jekyllhideagency.com or feel free to give us a call at 800-542-10.