Episode 27: Having a Birth Doula Will Enhance Your Labor and Delivery Experience, with Jenny Chan...

Hi, I'm Dr. Tabitha, the functional gynecologist. I'm a board certified, OB GYN and functional medicine physician. I've embraced the world of functional medicine and wellness through my own personal health journey. And I'm super excited to share my wisdom and unique perspective as it pertains to women's health. So if you're struggling with hormone imbalance, weight gain, period issues, anxiety, insomnia, you name it, then you've come to the right place. I want to be your functional gynecologist. So welcome. So this week's podcast is more about obstetrics. I interviewed Jenny Chandler. She's a childbirth doula. She started back in 2013 while volunteering as a doula in Haiti. So she went on to get HER certification in 2014 and has been working with women in West Michigan ever since. Jenny's going to tell us her story of how she got into it, the benefits of having a doula, and what types of childbirth classes she offers and why you should consider doing that while you're pregnant. And then we're also going to talk about placental encapsulation, which is something that she performs for patients. I do want to just make the disclaimer that there really isn't any evidence for or against placental encapsulation. There was one case reported to the CDC back in 2016 of a possible baby getting late onset GBS or group beta strep infection after maternal consumption of capsules that were from her placenta. Although the breast milk that they tested on mom was negative, they still blamed the placental encapsulation for this baby's late onset infection. So I would say there's no guidelines for ingesting capsules that have been created from your own placenta. But if you are known to be GBS positive, which is something that they check for at the last trimester of your pregnancy, or other viral infections, my recommendation as an obstetrician would be to not proceed with that. Otherwise there are some anecdotal benefits which Jetty's gonna talk about. So that's my disclaimer. So anyway, Jenny, she believes that knowledge is power. She's very passionate about educating women during their pregnancies and helping with their deliveries. She wants you to understand what's going on with your body, inside and out, physically and emotionally. She is there to help you and your partner make decisions that arise during labor and delivery and give you an overall positive experience. Experience. So if you are thinking at all about adding a doula to your team, this episode is worth a listen. All right, well, welcome, Jenny. Thanks for being on the Functional Gynecologist.

Thanks for having me. I love your podcast and listening to it, so I'm excited to be on it.

Awesome. Great. Okay, so I would love for you to share with my listeners how you got into this field.

Yeah. So about six and a half years ago, I felt called to go to Haiti. So I contacted a missionary that I knew down there and asked if they had anything for me to do. And she said there wasn't anything specific for me to do, but she. I had been there before, so she was like, I know you do well here, so come on down and join us. So I wasn't sure how long I was supposed to be there, and so I just got a one way ticket. So it ended up being six months that I was there and I ended up living upstairs at the maternity center that they have there. And my roommate was a midwife, and then there was a couple of another midwife and then a midwife in training. So through being there, I was at births, Obviously, I realized I loved being with women through labor and being the one that they go to and encouraging them. And then I realized that's part of what a doula does.

So you went to Haiti with no plans in particular. You just wanted to serve, and then you kind of figured out you loved helping women. Hey.

Yeah. So I was able to get a lot of extra training while I was there because technically, to become a certified dual, you only have to have three births. And I was at 25 births in Haiti, and then, like I said, living with a midwife. So I was just soaked in birth talk and births happening 24, 7 for six months. So once I started my training, I just realized how much I had learned from without even trying. So I was thankful for that.

That's amazing. Wow.

Yeah.

What was the most surprising thing you saw down there?

Learned Haiti is. I mean, there's a lot of differences. For one, one example, just to kind of share about how different it is. So there were times where we had to transport women to the hospitals. And so one. One woman, we were bringing her to the nearest hospital and they told us that they didn't have room. And so we had to go to another hospital up the mountain, like a couple hours away to bring her there. And then when we go to the hospitals too, they don't want to send like a white person in with them because then they'll charge the Haitian woman more.

Oh, wow.

Just because. Yeah. So it's just like, just like, little differences like that. But it. I mean, they're big differences, but it's just. It's kind of hard to explain how different it is, I guess. And then another woman went in. She was. She needed a bed. She hadn't gotten a bed yet. So she was, like, about to have the baby, and she could tell, so she put herself on a bed, delivered the head on her own. And then a doctor finally came over, and someone helped her and paid attention to her. So. But as far as the births, at the birth center, there was a woman who. She was measuring really big. And so they had done an ultrasound the day before. She went into labor, trying to figure out what was going on. And she delivered her baby, and the baby was really small. And so we were like, that is weird, because she was measuring big. And then all of a sudden, they realized the placenta wasn't coming out, so they were trying to feel what was going on in there. And the midwife was like. Like, I think there's another baby in there. So, surprise. Twins. The second one was breach, but everything was great. And I helped the first baby while the midwives helped deliver the second breach baby. So that was the craziest birth story that I've. Wow. That I was at there. Yeah.

So that's kind of like how it was here in the US 100 years ago. That's pretty. That's pretty awesome that you got all that experience.

Yeah, yeah.

So you did your training then or your certification, and you came back to the United States, and did you start practicing as a doula right away?

Yeah, I did. So I started working on my website when I was still in Haiti. And then so it was about almost six years ago now that I started. Started my business as a birth doula. And once I started as a birth doula, I just realized how passionate I was about the education piece of it, because there's the physical support during contractions and all of that. But I became really passionate about educating people and my clients about what. What goes on in your body and what your choices are during labor, just because if they understand more of that, then they're going to feel more in control and less uncertain of things.

So, yeah, definitely.

So I'm really passionate about educating.

Okay. So traditionally, doulas just are more for, like, during the actual labor and delivery part, being a support person.

So a doula is defined as physical support, educational support, and emotional support. So the physical support, a lot of that is during labor. Some of it is beforehand. If, you know, my clients are experiencing Discomfort, but a lot of it is during labor. So helping with different positions that can help baby move down and positions that help open up the pelvis and positions that help mom cope through contractions. And then also different massage techniques to also help open the pelvis, relieve some of the pressure for mom. Helping the partner be involved, if they want to be, which that can be a misconception about doulas is that, well, is my partner going to be involved then? And I actually like to create an environment where they can be very involved and very hands on, where it's like the two of them bringing the baby into the world together. And I am still doing things or thinking proactively of what we can try next. Or if, you know, she's like, they're leaning on each other, then I can be behind her putting counter pressure on her lower back or squeezing her hips and then thinking about what might be beneficial to do next. And then the educational support, like I said, understanding what's going on in your body and then the options that you have as decisions come up during labor, it can be very daunting to try and figure it all out, especially if you're not familiar with medical terms. So I tell my clients I translate medical terms to English because it can be hard to understand, especially when you're laboring and then your partner is going through their own experience with you. And so it can be overwhelming. So just helping slow down, helping them think through what their options are and supporting them in whatever decision they think is best for their family. And then the emotional support. I feel like having a doula there allows the partner to be the emotional support. So because then they don't have to be thinking about, oh, like, what should we try next? Or I don't know, like, I want to help, but I don't know what to do. Like, having a doula there can give the partner more tools to be able to effectively help and then also frees them up to just be there for the laboring woman and not have to be trying to think of what's going to be most helpful. I can be thinking of those things and they can be that emotional support. So that's kind of how I think the emotional support works out.

That's awesome. I think that's a great way to think about it because husbands want to feel important and needed during that time. But yeah, as an obstetrician, so many times I see that they really don't know how to be supportive and, you know, it's such a foreign environment to them. They kind of feel overwhelmed. So I think you being able to take that off their plate and just say, hey, just love your wife. You know, give her emotional support. That's amazing.

And giving them tools to help relieve some of the intensity of the contractions, too, so that they can effectively help because they want to. They just don't know how usually, so. Right. And then sometimes, too, like, some of the physical support things are exhausting for me or for the partner. And so to be able to have each other to switch on and off, you know, every few contractions, or if it's like a really long labor and the partner needs to rest for, you know, even 30 minutes to an hour, they can know that I'm with her and she's. She'll be okay. And then they can get rested and feel more with it and ready to support again.

Yeah, yeah. And so you said there, you know, you really like to focus on the educational piece. So are you meeting with your couples before the labor actually happens and talking about all of this stuff?

Yeah, so I do a free consult with anyone that's interested or wanting to know more about what a birth doula is and what that would look like to have birth doula as part of your team. Once they hire me, then it's one prenatal meeting, and that's usually at the client's home so that we can talk about birth things and practice positions. So within that meeting, I can help them create a birth plan. Plan. Help them know what their options are if they're not really sure where to even start. And then talking about what's going to happen in your body so that they understand what's going on and why being relaxed and not tense is important because that can prolong labor. And just explaining why I would be suggesting different positions and what it does within your body so that they know the whys of what I might be telling them during labor, so that it's not all new during labor. So we cover that ahead of time and then just getting to know each other a little bit more and, you know, just everyone's different, so everyone feels encouraged differently. Or, you know, if someone has had trauma in the past, like helping them know how to navigate that within delivery.

So you can get to know them and give them that individual experience. That's awesome.

Yeah.

So you've talked about some of the benefits being, you know, the partner can be more supportive. You guys can work as a team. What are some of the other benefits of having a doula? Kind of like, you know, that you See, across the board, does it help with shortening labor or anything like that?

Yeah. So statistically, with a birth Doula, you have 20, a 25% shorter labor and then 28% less cesareans and then an overall better birth experience. So even like I had a client who she ended up having to have an emergency C section and be put totally under, her husband couldn't be there while the baby was being born. That would normally be like a traumatic experience. But she says, because I was there right before that decision was made and there with them as they were making that decision, it doesn't feel as traumatic because I was able to just help them slow down. Literally, it was probably for 30 seconds before she made that decision because it was kind of like, you know, a lot was happening all at once. The baby's heart rate was dropping. And just to be able to give her a few seconds to just create space and hold space for her to come to that conclusion of what she felt like needed to be done. So then she felt like, so then it was her decision, not just something that was being done to her and she wasn't sure exactly why or if she agreed. Just giving her that 30 seconds to make sure that that's what she wanted to do made a huge difference.

Yeah.

So overall birth experience, so that's kind of an extreme story. But then if you think about being in labor and it's you and your partner and then the nurse is in and out and the doctor usually comes in at the end. So that can be very, I don't know if scary is the right word, but just to have, instead of it just, you know, being mostly the two of you in the room to have a birth doula who you have somewhat of a relationship that you trust, you know, is trained in a lot of things surrounding birthing, how to support you in that, just having having a birth doula in the room that whole time, that alone can bring like your stress level down and your anxiety level down and release some of that tension. So just having a doula there can help your labor go quicker because you're going to, you're not going to be as fearful.

Yeah, I totally agree. As an obstetrician, I just think it's so beneficial to have kind of that third party, less biased person helping navigate those conversations and make, helping you make decisions. Because yeah, sometimes you don't necessarily get the doctor that you've been with for nine months, you get the on call physician and you don't necessarily have that relationship and you feel or there's more paternalistic type physicians who, they come in, they say this is what needs to happen and understandably so they're trying to make the best decision for mom and baby. But patients need to feel in control, like you said, and feel like they have a voice and a choice in the decisions that are happening. And you don't want to end up with postpartum trauma. So I think it's, it's super beneficial to have somebody that they can rely on to relay the information and help clear, make a clear decision. So I think that's a huge benefit. How are you received by physicians and nurses when you go in and help women in their labor? Is it typically good? Is there a stereotype?

I get asked this question quite often and when I first started as a doula, I was very aware and this isn't, in any career, you're going to have people that overstep and, you know, don't do the right thing. And so that was kind of the case when I first started. And so I was, I was very aware that there could be this negative view of doulas going, you know, as a doula, going into hospitals and meeting doctors and nurses. And so I was very aware of that. And so I tried to be very non threatening. So I would just introduce myself and, and then, you know, as they come in and out, ask, you know, ask them some questions or just chit chat with them a little bit just so they know that I'm not like, okay, here I come, I'm here, let me take control and tell you what to do. Like that is out of our scope. That's not what we're supposed to do, right? So. And sometimes I even bounce ideas off of them, like asking them if they could tell the baby's position and then trying to think of ways, if the baby is a little bit tweaked as far as position, thinking of ways to get mom in a position that could encourage baby to turn or. So I will bounce ideas off of them sometimes or so. For the most part, my experience with medical workers has been great. I recently had a birth and I text my client, I think that evening or the following day, and she said that the nurses like loved working with you and thought it was great to have you. And so that was encouraging. When we all work together, it can be a really great team. So for a lot of my couples, I tell them like he knows her, the laboring woman, and I know birth and then the medical staff know like the medical side of it. So if we're all working together. It can be such an awesome experience and team effort for the laboring woman and getting the birth that she wants and having a good experience.

That's awesome. So you were talking about, you know, baby's position and things that you can do to make sure the baby's getting in the right position during labor. Is that what spinning babies is? So explain to my listeners what that is. I know what it is, but yeah.

So basically the course was just about what goes on in your body during labor, the rotations that baby makes as it's moving down, and what things could be hindering the baby from moving down. So it could be your muscles or your ligaments or maybe your uterus is slightly rotated. And so a lot of it was just about thinking about where is baby during labor. Not so much focused on, like, dilation, progress, and just ways to create space. Creating space in the uterus, in the pelvis, the top of the pelvis during certain phases of labor, and then the lower pelvis during other phases of labor. So, yeah, it was really, it was a really awesome training. And just. And as a doula, just to clarify with everyone, I don't do anything medical. I don't do cervical checks. So all of these would be like positions that I just help the mom or like pressure massage techniques, all from the outside. So, yeah, that's the general idea of the spinning babies training. And then there are, like, if your baby is breech, ways that spinning babies has of ways to encourage baby to turn or like I said, creating space for baby.

Yeah.

Sometimes they're breached for reasons that we can't see. But if baby does want to turn and is ready to turn, then just being able to do everything that you can to create that space.

Yeah, I think that class is awesome. And I, I think it should be a requirement for doulas just to understand the physics of what's going on during labor and in the pelvis, because it's a huge component of why labor is successful or dysfunctional and not. Wouldn't you agree?

Yeah, it was, it was an awesome training and, and I loved how they took the focus off of just thinking of progress as dilation. So, like, oh, maybe you haven't dilated at all in the last four hours. Well, that doesn't mean you're not making progress. Like, baby could still have moved down in your pelvis. You just haven't. Your cervix just hasn't dilated or, or maybe baby hasn't moved. So what, what can we do to create More space. And there's some positions or exercises, if that's what you want to call it. And one of them specifically is, it's called like the forward leaning inversion. And it helps stretch out the ligaments surrounding the uterus so that if the uterus is turned slightly, then within that position it stretches out the ligaments. It's not uncomfortable for the mom, but it then when you sit back up, then those ligaments have room to shift if, if the uterus is twisted at all and then creating space. So. And it, like I said, it's not painful. It kind of sounds like it might be when I'm, when I'm explaining it, but it's not right.

It's all just a natural progression of labor. But sometimes there's something hindering it and you just want to optimize and help that out. Yeah, that makes total sense. So do you teach any other classes?

Yeah, so I teach childbirth preparation classes. It's offered to anybody. And I recently started doing a virtual option because of COVID 19 and everything that's going on.

Oh yeah.

So even people that aren't in the community that want to take my class, they could take it virtually. It's a very hands on, interactive class. I wouldn't take probably more than five or six couples just because I like the more, the smaller, more intimate environment. And that way you can get to know the couples more and like personalize it for each couple and they get to know each other more and just you can spend more time when we're going through practicing different positions and massage, making sure each couple understands it and has, has it right. But, and again, the class just goes way more in depth of what goes on in your body during labor, even like when labor starts and the stages of labor and what to expect and how to know if you're in labor. And then also a big part that I think it's missed a lot of the time is the mental and emotional preparation for birth and after birth. And so we talk about that aspect of it and then coping techniques, like I said, with breathing and moaning and creating an environment that you, where you feel safe because that's going to help help your labor progress. Because if you think of. And I go a lot more in depth in my class, but just a quick example, like if, if you think of an animal in labor and some people probably know this, some don't, but if they're in labor and then there's a predator nearby and they see the predator, they, their bodies stop their labor until they get somewhere Safe. And then their labor continues and they have the baby. So it's similar with us, like if we don't feel safe in our environment or the people that are there, or we're just fearful and don't know, like, don't totally understand what's going on. And it's really intense and we're scared those things can slow down our labor. So if we don't feel safe, that can slow down our labor.

Yeah, that's a great analogy. I've seen that happen a million times.

Yeah. So we cover like your environment, the people that are there, and understanding what's going on in your body so you feel safe. Ways that you can promote oxytocin is what it is during labor. And then we go over, we practice positions and massage techniques. We talk about different interventions, the risks and benefits to those. Are there any natural alternatives? And then just how to think through when things do come up during labor, how, how to make those decisions because it can be really overwhelming. So the class that I offer is, it's good for anybody that's expecting, but if you can't afford a doula, I think taking the class is a really good middle ground so that you have just a better understanding of what's going to go on, what your options are and how to navigate all of that.

Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, as obstetricians, we see patients for 15 minute visits. Granted, we see you more often toward the end of your pregnancy, but we still don't really have time to educate you and talk to you about all, you know, the details of labor. We're honestly making sure that you're safe and healthy and your baby's doing well and growing. And, you know, we don't have time to do a lot of educating, unfortunately. So I think, yeah, going through a class like that is super important. And I love that you're offering that.

Thanks. Yeah. And it's a. It's a total of eight hours. So I do a Friday evening and then a Saturday morning into Saturday afternoon. And right now I'm offering them in Holland and Grand Haven. And like I said, I have a virtual option too, but it's been really, really awesome and exciting. Be able to help prepare these couples and help them feel in control and empowered going into their birth. It's really exciting.

Yeah, exactly. And then you also do something really cool called placenta encapsulation. Tell my listeners what that is.

Yeah. So a lot of you might be cringing right now as you hear that. What is that? Or maybe you're maybe you've thought, oh, I've heard of people eating their placentas. But before you check out, just hear me out. When you think of eating your placenta, that's not necessarily what this is. It's ingesting it, but it's not just eating it with a fork. So placenta encapsulation is a process of dehydrating the placenta and then putting it into empty capsules. So it ends up just looking like a vitamin. The reason for placenta encapsulation is so your placenta has a lot of your hormones in it, and so it's giving your body back your own hormones for that adjustment time after you have a baby. It helps stabilize your emotions, it gives you more energy, more milk supply, less bleeding, less cramping afterwards, quicker healing. It can help with baby blues and postpartum depression. I have had guys that are like grossed out by it, but then they kind of become like, placenta encapsulation biggest fan, because they just see how much more emotionally stable their wife is. Like, I had one client who said that she was only getting a couple hours of sleep a night and she had a toddler, not a newborn, but she still had enough energy to get through the day with taking the capsules. And then a couple other clients were saying that they were crying and just didn't feel like they could do it anymore and having irrational thoughts. And then their husbands reminded them to take their capsules and then like an hour later they felt back to normal. So I say it's just like a cushion for that transition time from being pregnant to not. And then especially when you're sleep deprived, that's not good for anybody. So that on top of all of the hormonal shifts.

Yeah, definitely. Especially women who are breastfeeding, they're in that estrogen deficient state and that can feel really horrible. And then you add some sleep deprivation with it and it makes it almost impossible to function. So.

Yeah.

Is there any literature showing the benefits of placental encapsulation?

So there's, there's not a lot of research on it or scientific information.

So. Okay, so it's mostly anecdotal through the Chinese method.

I just, I just go off what my clients say and most of them just absolutely love them and benefit greatly from them. And some call them their happy pills.

Do you recommend just taking them from the get go after delivery or to wait and see if you're suffering from postpartum depression or how you're handling situations?

So it's best to encapsulate within the first three days. So that's usually when I go to my clients homes and encapsulate. So then they can start taking them right. Then I always tell them just go based on how you're feeling too. So if you, if feeling really good, then take less so that the capsules last longer. They, they can last up to three years in the refrigerator. If you feel like you need to take more than the suggested dosage, then take more and see if that helps. So just based on how you're feeling, and like I said, they can last up to three years in the refrigerator. So you can save some of them for your first period, for your first period, for PMS and cramping, or when you're going back to work, if that's like a stressful time, or if you're just randomly having an emotional day, you can also open up the capsule and put it with like a carrier oil and put it on eczema. It can help with that. So there's a lot of benefits. So if you just think of any time where your hormones might be out of whack in those first three years after you have a baby, you can use them for that.

Okay, so like we said, there's no, you know, scientific evidence basing this, this is mostly anecdotal, but it sounds like that you've had really good success with it. And it's a common practice performed in many parts of the world.

And all animals, after they give birth, they instinctively eat their placentas too. So that's just a fun fact to know when considering placenta encapsulation. It just has so much nutrients in it, so. And benefits.

So yeah, and we are just a more advanced animal. Right. So you work in the hospital setting, but do you also do home deliveries?

Yeah, so most of my clients deliver in the hospitals, but I have had some home births and birth center births. A lot of times people will think that doulas are just for natural births and that's not the case. A lot of my clients want to deliver naturally and I can help them successfully do that. But even if you're having an epidural or a planned C section or not a planned C section, doulas, having a birth doula there can help the overall experience be a much better experience, especially if your birth doesn't go the way that you want. But a lot of times we can help your birthday, help you accomplish your birth goals. When I meet with couples that I tell them, even if your birth doesn't End up the way that you want it to. Having a doula there to help you make an educated decision. As each decision comes up, even if it ends up the opposite of what you wanted, you can still look back and think, you know, what we thought through each decision as it came, and we were well educated. We tried everything we could to achieve the birth that we want, but we made the best decisions that we felt were best for our family, and we were well educated, and we were comfortable and confident in each decision. So even though it didn't end up how we wanted, we understand that sometimes birth doesn't go how you want, but we still decided each step of the way and feel comfortable with what the outcome was. You know, they can feel like we tried everything we could to achieve that, and sometimes that's just not what happens. But at least you can look back and not regret or say, what if? You know, what if we would have tried this? Or I didn't totally understand what that meant, but so we just went with it. And so you don't have to have all those what ifs.

Yeah, I think that's super important. Just to feel like you had some say in the decision, because, honestly, when people give me their birth plans, you know, I love it. I want to know what their desires are, what they're hoping to see throughout the whole labor process and get an idea of what their goals are. And. But we have to be honest, you know, like, God is in control. We're not really in control of everything that happens, but you can be educated and, you know, make an informed decision.

So.

So I think setting realistic expectations with patients, like, I encourage you to make a birth plan, but understand that actually we're not really in control when it comes down to it, you know, and we want to be flexible. So I want them to feel comfortable asking questions and being educated to even know what to ask. So that's why I love, you know, having a doula as part of the team. So I think that's a great point that you give thanks. Yeah. So where can people find you? You said you're doing some classes virtually online. So I know you teach locally where we are in Grand Haven, Michigan, but can anybody go and do your virtual class online?

Yes, absolutely. So right now, the class is virtual live when I'm teaching the class. So it would be during those times, it's a Friday evening and then a Saturday morning into the afternoon. So on my website, I have all the services that I provide and more information there, contact information. So my website is Jenny's Childbirth services dot com. My Facebook page is the same Jenny's Childbirth Services. And also my Instagram is Jenny's Childbirth Services. So perfect. Pretty easy to remember.

Yeah. So we'll put a link to that in our show notes. Okay.

And on my Facebook page, I'll post interesting articles or events that I have coming up or I do birth and newborn photography also. So sometimes I'll post pictures. So it's just a good resource to follow my page too for birth and postpartum information too.

Well, I think that your virtual class is going to get a lot of interest because like you mentioned before we started recording with COVID 19, we people are less apt to, you know, have the doula come into their home. We're on this stay home, especially in Michigan. We're not really supposed to be interacting with people. So definitely check out Jenny's website because you can get childbirth classes virtually now. So that's really awesome.

Thank you.

Yeah. Well, thanks for joining me today. And I just want people to know that there are women out there to support them and help them through the birthing process. And I love the idea of a doula. I think it's great, a great addition to the team. And so hopefully everyone will check you out.

Thank you so much.

Yeah, take care. Well, that was fun. I love hearing all the awesome birthing stories and how women just like, find their place, purpose in life and make it happen, make it come to fruition. She had no idea why she was going to Haiti, but it all came together and now she's an amazing doula and she's doing her thing and she's supporting women at their most vulnerable and intimate times in their lives. And I just love that. We need to support each other as women. We need to help each other shine, help each other's lights shine brighter. So thanks for staying tuned today. That was really great. And I encourage you to check her out if you need her services or know of anybody. Pass this along, pass this episode along to anybody who's pregnant or thinking about being pregnant because it's great to have that support. So please follow me on Instagram and Facebook @ Dr. Tabitha T A B A T H A T Send me a shout out. I want to hear your questions. I want to shout you out on a future episode and answer any questions that you have. Okay. And if you leave me a review and take a snapshot of that on your phone and tag me on Instagram or Facebook, I will send you an exciting gift. So go out and have an amazing week. And shine your light so that it can. Can reflect and shine on others. I love you guys. Take care.