Episode 49: How to Overcome Betrayal, with Dr. Debi Silber

Hi, I'm Dr. Tabitha, the functional gynecologist. I'm a board certified, OB, GYN and functional medicine physician. I've embraced the world of functional medicine and wellness through my own personal health journey. And I'm super excited to share my wisdom and unique perspective as it pertains to women's health. So if you're struggling with hormone imbalance, weight gain period issues, anxiety, insomnia, you name it, then you've come to the right place. I want to be your functional gynecologist. So welcome. Hi friends. You are going to love my guest today. Her name is Dr. Debbie Silber. She, she is doing amazing work in helping people overcome betrayal and create their best lives out of it. It's pretty amazing. So today I'm going to talk to Dr. Silber, who is the founder of Post Betrayal Transformation Institute. She's a holistic psychologist, a health mindset and personal development expert, and she's the author of the bestselling book the Unshakable Four Steps to Rebuilding youg Body, Mind and Life After a Life Crisis. And now her newest book, Trust Overcoming Betrayal and Regaining Health, Confidence and Happiness. So she did her PhD studies in how people experience betrayal and she made three groundbreaking discoveries that changed how long it takes to heal. She figured out that there are five stages to healing and we often get stuck in the second or third stage. And so she's going to explain why that is what that looks like and how to pivot and get out of there and move on to the next stage to stop having physical pain and emotional exhaustion and, you know, broken relationships and be able to heal and trust again and move on to those other two steps so that you can turn out to be the amazing woman that you're supposed to be. So Dr. Debbie is super impressive. She's been on Fox, CBS, the Doctor as show, she's a two time TedX speaker, she's a coach, author, and she's dedicated her life to helping people move past these betrayals and break through those blocks that are preventing you from having your health and a satisfying work, job, professional situation, from having the financial stability that you desire, from the deep loving relationships that you deserve and, and the confidence and the happiness that we all want. So this discussion is beautiful and amazing and every one of you are going to get something out of it because we've all been betrayed at some point in our life by someone, by some situation that's part of the human nature of our lives, right? And it's what we do with it that Matters.

So.

So you're gonna get something out of this. It's a beautiful discussion. You're gonna figure out what stage you are in your betrayal, and you're gonna figure out from Dr. Debbie, where do I go from here? How does that change even begin to happen? She has this beautiful group where she walks women through and you find your way. It's not a group where you just get stuck, stuck, you know, bitching and complaining, oh, woe is me. Why did this happen? And you all kind of fester together. Because I know some groups can be like that, and at first it feels like a loving, comforting, warm place to be, but you never grow. You never get out and become the person that you're supposed to become from it. Right? So Dr. Debbie's group will transform you through the five stages and get you where you need to be. Just listening to her is going to be transformative for you. But I want you to, like, really hone in on and think, what is one thing that I can take action on? What is one thing that's like my aha moment? Oh, my God, that sounds like me. Oh, my gosh. I do that. Oh, my gosh. I need to, you know, that's where I need to go and what I need to do next. And once you figure that out and have that aha moment, I want you to share it with me on social media, Dr. Tabitha on Facebook, Instagram, Instagram, private message me, send me some information saying, I need to hear more of this. This was transformative to me. Thank you so much, because we are doing this for you. You know, Dr. Debbie gave her whole life to this, and she healed from her own betrayal out of it. So she taught, you know, she walks the talk. She's an amazing human being. And you're really going to enjoy this conversation and get so much out of it. You know, hurt people, hurt people. Sometimes that's you, Sometimes it's the people around you. And we need to know how to react, how to respond, how to repair and get out of that. So I'm really excited if you can't listen all the way through all at once. The beautiful thing about podcast is you can hit pause, you can come back, you can go back to my first episode I created a year ago and listen to that. I mean, I love podcasts because I'm all over the place. I've listened to a couple podcasts of someone else's more than once because it was so transformational for my mental growth that I was like, okay, I need to hear that. Again, because now I'm finally starting to understand this. Let me go listen to it again, and then I get more out of it that next time. So that's why I love podcasts. I love that you can go back and listen again or you can pause it and come back. It just fits with your life. So thank you for joining me. I'm honored that you're here with me. I do this for you. I want to know what else you want to hear about. I have access to some of the most amazing minds in health and wellness, and I want to bring them to you. So thank you. So let's have this discussion with Dr. Debbie Silber. I'll put in my show notes where you can find her. Reach out to me on social media. Dr. Tabitha. And here we go. Well, welcome, Dr. Debbie, to the Functional Gynecologist Podcast.

I'm excited to be here. Looking forward to our conversation.

Yeah, I think this is going to be so transformative. So for so many of my women listening today, because I will tell you, all day, every day in the office, I am trying to help women reclaim their health. And what I'm finding is that they have huge emotional and mental blocks, and they may be aware of it or they may not, but that work is so important to actually overcome, like why you can't stop eating sugar or why you can't exercise or why you're afraid to lose the weight.

Right.

Like, it's so much deeper. And I love all of the work that you've done. It's just incredible. Thanks.

Well, you know, by the time something manifests physically, there's a lot going on mentally and emotionally.

Yeah. So did you go into your PhD program with this specific focus of, I want to figure out betrayal?

You know, betrayal is one of those things. I don't think anybody says, hey, I want to study betrayal. I mean, you do it because you have to. And it was really a very painful betrayal. First, it was my family, and I thought I learned all the lessons I was meant to learn from that experience and didn't quite get it right. So I had another opportunity, and this time it was my husband. And anybody who's gone through it, you're shocked and blindsided, and it makes no sense. And so I got him out of the house is the first thing. And then the second thing was I signed up for a PhD program. Maybe not what everybody would do coming off a betrayal, but I was desperate to understand how the mind works and why we do these things and truly how I could heal. And it was in transpersonal psychology, the psychology of transformation and human potential. Because I was changing and I didn't quite understand it. He was too on his own, but wasn't ready to deal with that. And so I entered into this program, and then while I was there, I did a study, and I studied betrayal. What holds us back? What helps us heal, and what happens to us physically, mentally, and emotionally when the people closest to us lie, cheat, and deceive. And that study led to three groundbreaking discoveries which were just way too good to keep to myself.

Amen. I'm so glad that you have made it your mission to share what you have learned, because it's so important. But let's start at the beginning. So how would someone know that they aren't over what happened to them? You know, say their husband cheated on them or their child stole from them for drug addiction or something? Like, you feel like, oh, I'm over it. I moved on with my life. But how do you know if you haven't?

Yeah, you know, it's interesting because out of the three discoveries, one was that there is this collection of symptoms so common to betrayal, it's known as post betrayal syndrome. And we've had over 86, 700 people take our post betrayal syndrome quiz on our site to see to what extent they're struggling. And there's a question that reads, is there anything else you'd like to share? I read every one of them. And people besides the physical, the mental, you know, emotional symptoms, People write things like, My betrayal happened 35 years ago. I'm unwilling to trust. My betrayal happened 40 years ago. I can still feel the hate. My betrayal happened 15 years ago. I feel gutted. And I get stuff like this every day. So we've heard time heals all wounds. Not when it comes to betrayal. Betrayal only heals when you face it, feel it, heal it. But there are definite ways to see if there is a lingering betrayal. And because we see it in work, in health, in relationships. So for relationships, for example, I see it in two ways. The first way would be if you have repeat betrayals. Like, the faces change, but it's the same thing. Like, if you go from one job to the next and you're like, I don't get it. Why is my boss the same? It's like a different person, but it's the same situation. That's an unhealed betrayal. Or like a co worker. I don't get it.

Same thing.

Yeah, it's an unhealed betrayal. Or a partner.

Right, Right.

And people ask Me all the time. You know, what the heck is it? I keep attracting the same type of person. Is it me? Yes. Because you keep bringing the same you to every experience. So you're having that same experience because it's like the universe is saying, until you get it, I am going to just keep giving you more opportunities to learn already that whatever your lesson is, you're lovable, worthy, deserving, you need better boundaries. Whatever it is. What when that lesson's learned, when you get the mother of all betrayals where you're like, I am never doing that again. I'm never whatever, whatever lesson learned. So if it's a repeat betrayal, it's unhealed. The other way we'd see it in an unhealed betrayal is in relationships. Is that those people who put the big wall up, they're like, nope, nope, no one's getting near me again. You know, not doing it, not letting it. I'm keeping everybody at arm's length. We think it's because we've healed and we're like, no, no, no, I'm just good. No, no, you just hardened. You haven't healed. So that's what's going on there. That's an unhealed betrayal. In health, we'll see it where people go to the most well meaning. Like you, right? Doctors, coaches, healers, therapists to manage a stress related symptom, illness, condition, disease. At the root of it is an unhealed betrayal. We also see it at work where someone, you know, they want to ask for that razor point promotion, they deserve it, but their confidence was shattered. So they don't have the confidence to ask. They're bitter and resentful instead. Or they want to be a team player, right? Or collaborate with someone. But the person they trusted the most proved untrustworthy. How can they trust a co worker or a collaborative partner? So we see it in so many different ways. Those are all unhealed betrayals.

Well, that is so eye opening. Because I think women need to understand, like, hey, I might be smarter now. And so I'm avoiding these situations. But like you said, becoming hardened and not experiencing situations is not healthy. And a way to live your life, that's a way to not get hurt again. Right? But you're also missing out on so many beautiful, amazing opportunities. And so I just love that. It's like once you realize that that painful situation was to teach you something and that you can grow from it, there's where the work begins. And I've heard you talk about like that transition point where you realize. But now you got to do the work. That's hard.

It's very hard. And that's why out of the. One of the other discoveries was that while we can stay stuck for years, decades, a lifetime, and many people do, if we're going to heal, we will move through five stages. And we know physically, mentally, and emotionally what happens at every stage and what it takes to move from one stage to the next. But that space you're talking about is the most common place to get stuck, and that's that stage three. I mean, I'm happy to go through the stages if you want.

Yeah, let's do that. I mean, I was just thinking about the. You know, I heard you talk one time about how you'll have a couple and one person finally feels like they're ready to heal themselves and make changes. And so they start exercising and they gain some confidence back. And then the other person, oh, my gosh, they get jealous and questioning and worried because all of a sudden that comfort space that they shared together is gone. And you're trying to change the dynamic, and the other person is like, hey, wait a minute, I'm not ready for this. I mean, is that what happens with most people?

It depends. What you're talking about is really this subconscious sabotage that goes on, because that would be when that other partner starts bringing donuts home. It's like, hey, yeah, you're looking great and all, but look what I brought. Donuts, whatever. And it is. It's because there's that fear that has to be spoken about where now if the person, the other one who is on, let's say, this healthy eating journey, and if they see that partner is uncomfortable, the conversation that would really help the two of them would be something like, you know, I feel so great and I'm feeling so much better. And that means we have more energy to do all these great things. And, you know, so then the person isn't afraid. So it's just there are so many things that are just unsaid. But that's different than that stuck point, you know? And it just reminds me of. I'm big on analogies. And I wrote about it in Trust Again, the new book, where it's almost like, imagine, you know, we talked about the big wall up where you're not letting anybody in. It's as if you get burned on the stove. You know, you reach for something, you get burned. You're like, not cooking again. No way. Just not doing it. You know what I mean? And it's like we need to learn. Okay, let's be careful. Let's approach it carefully. Put a glove on, whatever you need to do, but you're depriving yourself of if you don't work through that. You know, relationships are the foundation of life. We're meant to have deep, meaningful, loving relationships with friends, family members, you know, partners, whatever. And if we don't heal that, we're. We're, you know, we're ripping ourselves off. So we need to heal that.

Yeah, so let's go through the five stages. I mean, because I can see a lot of women going, okay, yeah, I've been through that. I've been through that. But where do I even start?

Yeah, well, you know what? And this is the thing. People will see exactly where they are when they hear these stages. Okay? So the first is like a setup. It was just a setup stage. And this is what I saw with every single study participant, me included. If you imagine four legs of a table, the four legs being physical, mental, emotional and spiritual, what I saw with every single person, me included, was this real heavy lean on the physical and the mental and kind of neglecting the emotional and the spiritual. So what does that look like? Looks like we're really good at thinking and doing and not really prioritizing the feeling and being, but it's in the feeling and being. That's where our intuition lies. And we turn that down. And that doesn't mean if you're busy, it's a setup for betrayal. But it's what I saw every single time. And women are so great at this because we have so much on our plate. Right. And I get it, you know, I. Forever I was, you know, raising four kids, six dogs, full business. I mean, it was. It's crazy, you know, and. But the only way we can do it is if we become almost machine, like you know, to get it all done, turn down the feeling and being. So we could just knock things off of our to do list anyway, so if that table, we're only prioritizing two legs of that table, easy for the table to fall over. And that's what happens. Stage two, scariest stage. This is the breakdown of the body, mind and worldview. This is the shock D day, discovery day. Here's where you realize your siblings stole the family fortune, your partner had the affair, your co worker took all your clients that day. And it. So now we ignite the stress response. So we're headed for every single stress related symptom, illness, condition, disease, you know, this stuff. The mind is in a Complete state of chaos and overwhelm. We cannot wrap our mind around what we just learned. This makes no sense. And our worldview is shattered. That's our mental model. These are the rules of the world, how it works. These people are safe. Don't go here. This is how it all works. And. And in a moment, a shockingly painful moment, everything that we've come to know and understand has been shattered. You know, one of my study participants said, you know what it's like? It's like every negative emotion you can imagine and getting punched in the gut and losing a child in a crowd at the same time.

Yeah, Even hearing that makes me sick.

It's awful. It's awful. And that moment tattoos itself on your body and mind. So, scariest stage. So here's the thing. This is where the bottom bottoms out on you. So if the bottom were to bottom out on you, think about it, what would you do? You'd grab hold of anything and everything you could to stay safe and stay alive. And that's stage three. Survival instincts emerge. It is the most practical stage. If you can't help me, get out of my way, how will I survive this experience? Who can I trust? Where do I go? How do I feed my kids? Like, it's totally practical. But here's the trap. Once we've. Because we figured out how to survive and it feels so much better than the shock and trauma of stage two, we're like, who? And we think that's as good as it gets. So we start planting roots here. And we're like, okay, all right, I'll figure out how to make this work. And the problem is the longer we stay here, the harder it is to leave. And we have no idea. There are two whole stages waiting for us. And then what happens is when we're here for a while, we start getting all of these benefits, small self benefits from being here. You get to be right, you get someone to blame. You get a target for your anger. You get sympathy from other people. And you think, this is good.

Right.

You don't have to do the hard work of learning to trust again, do I trust? Forget I'm not trusting anybody. And then as you're here now, what's happening is now your mind is doing all kinds of things like, well, maybe you deserved it. Maybe you're not all that great. Maybe you're not this, maybe you're not that. And now like energy attracts like energy. So now you're calling situations and circumstances and people to you that confirm this is where you belong. And this is only stage three. Yeah. And that's why this is the most common place to get stuck. And it's worse. I'll show you how you get out of it, but it's even worse. One more level. Ready? Because now, because this is so uncomfortable, this is also the stage where you start using food, drugs, alcohol, work, tv, keeping busy, reckless behavior. Because you're not happy here, but you're thinking, this is as good as it gets. So you're not happy with your health, you're not happy with your body, you're not happy with your relationships, you're not happy with your life or your lifestyle, but you're like, all right, you know, and now you start doing this and it's like this perpetual, really bad holding pattern. If you're the most common, this is the most common place to get stuck. If you're willing to let go of those small self benefits, willing to accept your betrayal. There were three groups in the study who did not heal. And I could talk about that too. But if you're willing to let that stuff go, you can move to stage four. Stage four is finding and adjusting to a new normal. Here's where you get it. You accept you cannot undo your betrayal, but you can control the effect it has on you. So this is like if you've ever moved to a new house, office, condo, apartment, whatever, your stuff isn't all set up yet. It's not quite cozy, but it's going to be okay. That's stage four. And what's so interesting about this is when you're in this stage, you're turning down the stress response. You're not healing just yet, but you're not causing the massive damage you're causing in stages two and stage three. You're also, you know, you're setting new boundaries, you're creating new rules for yourself. And I found this so interesting too. If you were to move, you don't necessarily bring everything with you, right? You don't bring the things that don't represent the version of you. You want to be in this new space. And here's where I saw changes in friendships. If your friends weren't there for you, you're not bringing them into stage four with you. You've outgrown them. You know, you're just not. You're just not having it. You're redefining who you know who friends are, the type of friendships you need and deserve anyway. You're in this space. You're making it cozy. You're making it your own. You Settle in there for a while, you can move to stage five. And this is healing, rebirth and a new worldview. The body starts to heal. Now you want to eat well, you want to move, you want to take care of yourself. You didn't have the bandwidth for that earlier. You were surviving. Now you do, your body starts to physically heal because you turn the stress response down your mind. You have new beliefs and new boundaries and new everything based on your experience. And you have a new worldview based on what you've been through. And remember the four legs of the table, we were only focused on the physical and the mental. Now we're solidly grounded because we're focused on the emotional and the spiritual too. Those are the five stages.

Yeah. That's so incredible that you have figured that out. So now we have the groundwork laid for people to actually know where they're at and know where they can go. Like, how amazing is it to realize like, I don't have to be stuck here. Do you have any idea how what the percentage of people get stuck in stage three? Because I feel like that's the majority of my patients for a while as well.

I would say it's interesting because in the PBT post betrayal transformation membership community, yes, it's the people who are recently betrayed and it's the shock and the trauma. But I'll tell you, I believe that there are more people who are stuck in that stage three and they're just because they feel. Because their betrayal, whatever with whoever happened so long ago, they really think. But it can't possibly be affecting me. It happened way back then. Oh yes, it's clearly affecting you right now. And that's where they stay. I really think as many people are who are recently betrayed, the bigger group is the ones who've just made that stage three their new home. Because they don't know.

Yeah, I mean, honestly, I've had so many women tell me they fill out their questionnaires and they check off physical or sexual abuse history like that, divorces, all these big major things. And they'll say to me stuff like, oh, that was forever ago, that's not the issue. When I can see within the first 20 minutes that it clearly is the issue. And trying to get women to realize that about themselves has been difficult. But you seem to make it so easy because you're just kind of laying it out there like, hey, it's not your fault. This is what happened. But now we need to take those lessons and learn and grow from them. And so. Wow. So you're saying most women come to you right after a betrayal. It's more obvious. But a lot of them have old wounds as well.

I'll tell you, like, here's the typical, this is the typical profile of someone we see. And I talked about this in my, I did two TEDxS. The second one was do you have post betrayal syndrome? The first one is all about how we numb and avoid and distract so they actually both go together. But I talk about this in the second one and I named her Sue. And this is the person we see every single day. And I'm sure I'm speaking to a thousand Sues right now. So this is a person who, she's not sleeping, so she's exhausted. So she's using sugar and caffeine for energy. So that's also one of the reasons why she's been gaining weight, particularly around her midsection. So she's not feeling good about it. And she's doing that sugar induced roller coaster of energy all day long. She's anxious, right. So she can't focus and she's overwhelmed and just, she can't focus, she's depressed, she's all these things. So she goes to her doctor who puts her on mood stabilizers or anti anxiety medications, right?

Yep.

Or she's, she's, you know, finding some way to numb, avoid, distract herself. She's eating, she's drinking, she's numbing out in front of the tv. Whatever it is she's having. Her, she has no patience. Right. She's frustrated, she's aggravated, her adrenals have tanked, her immune system is shot. Right. I mean, this is who we see. This is the person who is reeling from an immediate or a betrayal from a long time ago. And then she's thinking, well, this is as good as it gets, so I better settle into this. And it's not, it's totally not. Transformation is like, is on the way in those two stages, but not from that place. But I'll tell you, there were three groups that did not heal. And one of them was. And I could talk about all three if you want. Yeah. So one of them was they refused to accept their betrayal. Just flat out, they were not having it. They just were refusing. It's like they just weren't going there. And I talk about this analogy too. And this is going to show you if this is what you're doing. So anybody listening, watching, they'll know if they're doing this too. You ready? Let's take an analogy of a house. And here's the difference between resilience and trauma and transformation. Oh, good. I mean, because it just explains it, right? You just get it with this. Okay.

Thank you for sharing this.

Oh, I'm so glad. So with the house, let's say the house needs a new boiler and you get a boiler. That's resilience. You're bringing it back, you're restoring. Or let's say it needs a roof. You get that roof resilience, you're restoring it. Here's trauma and transformation. A tornado comes by, levels your house, right? New boilers, not going to fix it. And the new roof's not going to fix it. Here's the thing, you have every right to stand there, you know, at the lot where your house once stood, and say, oh, my gosh, this is horrible. This is the worst thing that's ever happened. You'd be right. You can call your friends over and say, look, isn't this the worst thing you'd ever see? You've ever seen? They don't agree. And you really have the right to mourn the loss of your house for the remainder of your days. No one can fault you for it. However, should you choose to rebuild your house, there's nothing there. Why would you build the same house? Right? Like, why not make it the best house you've ever seen, Right? That's the gift in trauma. Trauma is the setup for transformation. And most people sit there and cry over the house and just cry over the house and just keep crying over the house, right? So that is a choice. Anyway, the second group that didn't heal, those were the ones who were numbing, avoiding, distracting, and, you know, it may have made the day a bit easier, but they didn't heal nearly as well as the ones who were like, no, no, no. I'm just putting my head down and moving through this no matter what. And then there was a third group, and this was the group who, whether it was out of financial fear, fear of breaking up a family, religious reasons, they tried to overlook it. Not only did they not heal, this group, by far hands down, was the most physically ill. Yeah, the broken heart can't handle that.

Stuffing it all down and it's all just going to show up physically. Yeah. Well, I think one of the important things that you've explained, you know, in other videos, is when people finally decide they want to change or they want to heal, they're going to rebuild their house. Being around people who aren't necessarily ready to do that same work as you can make it really hard and get you stuck. And how do you handle that?

It's a, it's a hard thing because when you're rebuilding is always an option. You know, you could rebuild yourself and move on. And that's what I did with my family. It just wasn't an option to rebuild with them. And you know my story. You know, if the situation lends itself, if you're willing and if you want to, you can rebuild something entirely new with the person who hurt you. And that's what I did with my husband. You know, as to totally different people, we married each other again, new rings, new vows, new dress, and our four kids as our bridal party. But it's not always an option. Like with my family, it was not an option. So that's when you bang your head against the wall enough times and realize that I am totally exhausting myself making myself sick trying to prove, convince. I mean everybody who's gone through that knows and it just doesn't work. So you need to just heal yourself and move on.

Yeah. Kind of thinking of your house analogy, like you can build in the rebuild in the same spot, have the same neighbors. Maybe you want to go build in a whole new community and have new neighbors. So it's, you might outgrow your friends or the people in your life, and that's okay. I don't think that we give ourselves enough grace to say, you know what, it's time for a change, it's time to move on. I appreciated those friendships and relationships when I had them. But it doesn't have to be forever, you know, And I just think people use that as a way to stay stuck and maybe even an excuse.

Sometimes they do, because it's scary to outgrow what was familiar, you know, that's what happens. What used to feel good doesn't feel good anymore. What used to make sense doesn't make sense anymore. What used to work doesn't work anymore. And it's a call for change and to play bigger. But we don't like that because change shakes up everything around us. But you know, it's almost like I'll use this analogy of let's say there's a boy and he has his favorite white T shirt, right? And he grows. So he outgrows the white T shirt. The T shirt doesn't become bad, he just outgrew it, you know, and when we realize that it's time to. It's a call for something else. You could still love your friends, but if it was a one sided friendship and you need something different now you're gonna know it. You're changing all the rules after betrayal. I mean, that's the gift. I mean, that's really one of those things. You're recreating yourself. You're creating these new boundaries. You're really creating a new identity. You're bringing the things with you that you love and you're letting go of the old. And that's the reason why that group, that third group where the betrayer had no consequences and where they just tried to put it behind them without anything changing, it doesn't work. There's got to be this complete and total death and destruction of the old, old you old relationship. And that's the only way to rebirth something new.

And I feel like you have to make a decision. Am I going to live in fear or am I going to live in love? I mean, that's what happened with me when I was betrayed multiple times by my husband. And it's like, am I going to just keep not trusting people and repeat, you know, being in these repeated situations? Or am I going to choose to rise above and live in love and trust other people, knowing that he has issues? It's not about me. Right. I think that's the big lesson that I learned was when someone betrays you, it's almost never about you. It's about them. But you can earn the greatest gift from them. Right?

Yeah. Well, and I love that you're saying that because that is one of the most painful things to experience. I really believe betrayal is one of the most painful of the human experiences. But I also know that if you have to say this a hundred million times until you get it, even though it happened to you, it's not about you.

Yeah.

And it's the reason why. And this was actually the third discovery that healing from betrayal is very different than healing from other life crises. Death of a loved one, disease, natural disaster. You know, with those things like let's take death of a loved one, you grieve, you're sad, you mourn the loss. Life will never be the same. But you don't take it personally. With betrayal, it's so intentional, so you take it so personally. So the whole self has to be rebuilt. Confidence, worthiness, belonging, you know, trust. These are monster things. Worthiness. Did I say that one? You know, they all have to be rebuilt. So that type of healing needed its own name, which is now called post betrayal transformation.

Yeah, I mean, that is such a huge difference. And so you need to heal differently. And I think you have to be super purposeful about it. And like you said, realize it's not about you, but what an amazing lesson that you can take from this. You know, I just remember praying for my husband, like, God, I hope that he can heal. I hope whatever his issue is, he can find peace and forgive himself and heal. Because being mad at that person for hurting you is not going to heal you. It's going to fester and make you bitter and angry. I didn't want to be that bitter, divorced bitch, you know, that's all I could see. And I was like, I want something better for myself. I want to rise above and be that happy, independent woman who forgives and still is able to love. And so I think you have to make that decision, you know, and it's hard. It's very hard making it right. Like, I must have had to tell myself that a thousand times. I'm gonna live. I'm not gonna go there. I'm not doing that. And it's work.

Yeah. Oh, it's so much. It's definitely the hardest work I've ever done. And I've been through stuff. I've been through disease. I've been through, like, I've been through something. I've been through a loss. Nothing got me like this. But, you know, when it comes to rebuilding with that person, you know, I remember reading a study, and it said, if you feel safe and valued, forgive. Now, I think forgiveness you should do anyway, because forgiveness is for us.

Right?

If you do not feel safe and valued, then do not forgive. But in the book In Trust, Again, I changed it, and I said, let's change the word forgive to reconcile. Because I believe we should forgive anyway for our sake. So think about how this sounds now. If you feel safe and valued, reconcile. If you do not feel safe and valued, do not reconcile. Because one is you're trying to make it easy for the other person. You're trying to make it easy in all the other areas of life. Right. And one is, I am truly. You know, this is my. My. The highest version of me saying yes. All the lessons learned. And coming from this deeply spiritual place, this could be an amazing thing. Very different intentions behind them.

Yeah, for sure. I think that forgiveness is for you and reconciliation is for you and them. So I think you can definitely forgive someone without letting go of it in a way that they're not held accountable. Right. Like, I think there's a big difference there.

Yeah. Yeah. Forgiveness. And, you know, it's interesting because people think. And I thought this, too. I thought forgiveness was this one big Ta da. Forgiven. It doesn't work like that. You forgive, you take it back, you forgive, you take it backwards. And it's more like layers and stages, and it really goes along the timeline of trust, you know, because I've seen this so often, and we do this according to the stages someone is in. When people forgive too early, it backfires every single time, even though it's for us, you know, they weren't ready for it, you know, where acceptance is a much easier stage to take on, you know, than forgiveness earlier on, early on. And when someone tries to forgive too early, I always question the intentions. Why are you doing that? Is it just because you just want this to go away and you don't want to deal with it? Usually fears behind it.

Yeah.

You know, but when you're ready, you just. You just know.

That makes total sense. Oh, my gosh. So what is the first thing someone should do? I mean, just kind of identify where they're at in your steps. Yeah.

Well, you know what? You can't change what you're unaware of. So I always have people just take the post betrayal syndrome quiz so they know to what extent they're struggling. They'll see, and it may be even a little bit jarring because they'll be checking off these symptoms, thinking that they've just been attributing them to, oh, well, just age, whatever. No, it's not. It's because of your unhealed betrayal. So they'll see, and there's got to be check your willingness, because if you're unwilling to move forward, you're going nowhere. Because we never want to be without that identity. And I remember for years working with people just with weight or with health, if we can't picture who we'd be without the weight or even without that symptom, whatever, it's not going anywhere. So are you willing to let that go, even to venture into an unknown? That's the scary part. Yeah.

I mean, there's a lot of women who carry extra weight around as a protective mechanism. They might not realize it, but they were, you know, abused or they didn't have any boundaries, and they feel like that is their protection. So men leave them alone so they don't feel sexy and worthy. Right. And I think that so many people just don't even realize that's why they are the way they are. That, I mean, there's so much work to do.

Well, that's it. And it's true. It's the thing about it. When we're young, we hide behind Mom's leg. When we're older, the weight provides the same protection.

Yeah. Women who won't get their hair done or put makeup on because they don't want attention called to them. They don't want to have to be put in the limelight and show up and be the amazing person that I know they can be because it's too painful for them.

Right, Right. But that's not a way to live. That's the thing. It's like all of that can be healed. And think about it. It's like there is a healthy, heal hold, amazingly powerful woman hiding underneath the pounds and the fear and the doubt and the insecurity. And it's a matter of shedding that and healing that gently, slowly, carefully, fully. So you could be the version of you you're meant to be. It's not fair to you to have what someone did 10, 20, 30, 40 plus years ago affecting the way you live your entire life especially. They might not even know, remember, or care about what they did. And here we are living this guarded, protective, protected, unhappy life based on a belief system we picked up because of someone else's lack. That's not right. That's not right.

So true. I mean, I think about how hurt people hurt people. Right. And how we're raised in a certain way and our parents parent us in a certain way because that's how they were parented, you know, and we, even if we learn lessons from painful things, we might not realize we should stop that vicious cycle, you know, like spanking or something, I don't know. And you keep doing it because you learned your lesson from that bad situation, but you're still causing more pain and that vicious cycle. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Yeah, well, it takes intense awareness. And it's so funny because it's not funny. I mean, I. That's exactly my experience where I vowed, I said, I am not doing this to my kids too. So I remember having my oldest. And so early on I remember saying to myself, I'm going to pretend that I'm dyslexic and everything looks kind of jumbled. And I have to unjumble it before it comes out. Because instead of, let's say my oldest is a girl, she would do something and then of course I would remember and the tendency is regurgitate what we learned and do the same. And I would pretend, no, no, no, no, it's jumbled. Unjumble it so it comes out differently. And that was one of the greatest gifts I gave my kids I mean, I even remember my third woo. We had all kinds of mother and daughter. And she goes, we're like best, best friends now. But she was typical teenage girl, like, to the 10th degree. And I remember her going nuts on me one time and I stopped in my tracks and I said, wow, I did such a great job letting you know that there is nothing you could say to me that would question my love at all, that you could feel safe speaking like that. Go me.

She probably was like, what?

Right? But in her rant, it totally shocked me, you know, And I was like, wow, that she feels that comfortable knowing there's no risk. I'll never. Nothing's conditional, you know, there's other stuff we have to work on. But clearly she doesn't think my love is at stake. And that's how I grew up. So I felt like, okay, we definitely shifted that.

Amazing. Yeah, I feel like, oh. In order to stop bringing forward the bad habits, the bad parenting, the bad relationships that we've just gotten from our ancestors, from our grandparents, from our parents, we need to be more intentional. We need to stop and think about why is this happening, what is this response going to elicit from me? Because I think so often we just get stuck in on replay, right? We just, like you said, we shut down, we're not feeling, we're not thinking, and so we just keep hitting replay because that's what we're comfortable with.

That's it. But it's keeping us stuck and sad and sick, and that's no way to go. It's, you know, we have to be intentional. But that shock of whatever your trauma is is the best wake up call ever. Ever, you know? And it's like this. Imagine a pendulum. I teach this too. So you may have seen this in a video, but it's just. It clears it up. So most people want to live right here. Not so good, not so bad, you know? And then here's trauma sends you right here. This isn't the problem that you find yourself here. The problem is that you stay here and you plant roots here. No, here's where you gather your strength, your energy. You come up with a plan, and you have the incentive you need to do this and swing to greatness. No one we've ever learned from teaches us anything from here. And we're in too much pain to learn anything from here. It's the people who've done this, and this is what they're teaching us how to do. So if you find that you are here, that is only a temporary Spot so that you could swing. If you're here, give yourself your own wake up call. You don't belong here.

Yeah, exactly. That's beautiful. You talked about the spiritual part not being strong enough on that table. Do you find that women who are more spiritually inclined do better or are more successful?

It was interesting because in the study I saw this real definite move towards spirituality. So whether it was they were religious and they moved towards the spiritual part of their religion, some abandoned religion completely, they felt their religion wasn't supporting them and moved towards spirituality. Some weren't really doing much of anything. Moved towards spirituality. And I had done the same thing. And I was wondering what that was about. And it was really for two reasons. One, you need to feel a sense of connection because your worldview has been shattered. You feel no connection. You don't know what's going on. The second thing is we don't trust our betrayer and we don't trust ourselves. So we, you know, we venture. Well, we've got to trust in something bigger than us. We can trust in God, Source, universe, whatever. So that was a real move towards it. And I definitely did that.

Yeah. I feel like you can't learn to trust yourself again without that. Right? I mean, something more than you. You need a bigger purpose.

Definitely.

Oh, my gosh. Your work is so incredible. And it just, it's healing so many women. And I can just see it helping so many women with their physical conditions. I mean, chronic pain is more, you know, rampant now. Fibromyalgia, all of these problems and hormone imbalances, like, it all really so often stems from our unfinished business.

That's it. You know, it's interesting because in trust again, I talk about each of the study participants. Their stories are in there too. And you see from one person to the next how as they healed, their physical symptoms healed. Like gut issues. That's a really common one. They had debilitating gut issues. I mean, anything, you know, constipation, diarrhea, Crohn's, ibs, diverticuli, diverticulitis, you name it. And then as they heal, they're like totally gone. Totally gone.

So.

And that's just gut. Yeah.

That's so beautiful. Oh, my gosh. Well, I appreciate all your work. Tell my listeners more about your group that they should be a part of.

Thank you. So, yeah, it's the PBT stands for Post Betrayal Transformation Institute Membership Community. You know, there really is nothing like it. I did a tremendous amount of research and found that people really, when they've Been betrayed. What did they do? They either take some medication or numb. They're in some support group. But then when they start feeling better, they don't belong. Or they go to a therapist. And if that therapist isn't highly skilled in betrayal, it does more harm than good. So I was like, okay, you know what? We made these discoveries. We clearly know what works now. I know what worked for me. The study proved we need support, but the right kind of support. So I put everything under one roof. And we have live daily classes from our certified coaches and practitioners. We bring in curated experts to teach one time masterclasses on just really great topics. I go in there twice a week to do a live Q and A. We have, my programs are in there moving you through the stages. And we have the most incredible forum where people just post and lift and inspire each other. So there's really nothing like it. And it's, it's beautiful to watch the healing that's going on in there.

Yeah. Oh my gosh, that's. That gives me goosebumps. That's so exciting that I mean, and like you said, the betrayal could be brand new, fresh, and you're ready to just like figure it out, move on. Or it could be something from a long, long time ago. This group is going to help no matter what.

Definitely. And we even have this amazing welcoming process because you know how like you go to a party or a networking event and like, I don't know about you, but that is just terrible. You don't know anybody. You're so awkward and you know, and I hate that. So we created this beautiful welcoming process. So we have my assistant, we call her the PBT host mama. And what she does is people fill out a little questionnaire and based on that, she meets with every single person to find out more about them and shows them around the community, Suggests the right classes and coaches and if they want to buddy up with someone, she can find a buddy for them so they can go through it together. So we're really trying to come up with anything and everything that's going to have someone heal. And we have a charity component every month. We have. It's just, it's so fun.

Wow, that's so beautiful. I want to join, even though I don't feel like. Well, I guess I have had betrayal. So. So yeah, I should. And that brings up another point. Like I think people downplay the things that happen to them in their life. Like, I've had huge betrayals, but because I've done the work, I'm like, oh, whatever, that's fine. But I bet I could benefit from learning from you and being in that community. Right.

I mean, I don't know where you're at in the stages, but for sure you can come in and teach a masterclass. Yeah.

I mean, I've learned a lot along the way, but I feel like having a strong faith definitely got me through. I always felt like somebody bigger, greater than me was having my back and I had someone to trust in. Right. And it allowed me to trust in myself again. So I love the idea of trying to figure out something greater beyond you and what your purpose is in life, because we all want to feel like we have a purpose and that we're needed and accepted. Right. So.

And you never know what that purpose is. I mean, I remember talking about the spiritual side. I was so lost, and the spiritual piece was so important. So I made an appointment with a spiritual counselor. She's become a dear friend. And I walked in and my first appointment, she said, oh, my gosh.

I.

You two planned this. Like, planned. So, yeah, he needed something so that he'd crash and burn and become the husband, father, friend he's supposed to be. And you. You needed to go through something so traumatic so you can really heal and be able to teach from this deep place of knowing you're gonna have this institute and books and this big following around betrayal. I'm like, you're crazy.

That is amazing. That is so good. But it's true. And you probably manifested it right then and there.

Right?

Like, that's how it works.

Well, you know what? When you do something good with something bad, it's trauma. Well served.

Yeah, exactly. Wow. Well, thank you so much, Dr. Debbie. So amazing. So where. Where should listeners find you?

Yeah, I'd say the best thing, just take the Post Betrayal syndrome quiz. They could just find that at the PBT, as in post betrayal transformation. Thepbtinstitute.com quiz.

Okay, I will totally have those links in my show notes because I want women to seek you out. I feel like we all need to do this work. It's so incredible, and I just appreciate it so much. You're so good.

Thank you.

Thank you for really.

It's people like you who give people like me an opportunity to share. So thank you.

Well, I hope that we can connect again soon.

Yeah.

Thanks.

This is terrific. Thank you, everybody.

All right, bye. Well, I hope you got something out of that episode. I know I did. And I know that she has taught me so much about betrayal with her PhD work that she's done and her book. And I would really urge you to check her out if you feel like you resonated with any of the. That if you saw yourself in any one of those stages and it wasn't stage five, then I would say you should go check out Dr. Debbie. You should take the quiz. I'm going to have the links in my show notes. Okay? So don't be afraid to do the work. The most beautiful, amazing you might come out of it. So that is what I hope and pray for you. And until next time, go out and have a kick ass week. I love you guys. Bye.