Episode #80: The Hormone Balance Bible, with Dr. Shawn Tassone

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I'm a board-certified OB-GYN and functional medicine physician. I've embraced the world of functional medicine and wellness through my own personal health journey, and I'm super excited to share my wisdom and unique perspective as it pertains to women's health. So if you're struggling with hormone imbalance, weight gain, period issues, anxiety, insomnia, you name it, Then you've come to the right place. I want to be your functional gynecologist. So welcome. Welcome back, ladies. So I'm really excited about this episode because I am interviewing a fellow holistic gynecologist. So there's not many of us. So that is always fun for me. And I have been following Dr. Tassone for a long time, and he is doing amazing things. He understands women. He's an amazing patient advocate. And he has finally finished writing this book that he's been working on for so long. And everybody needs this book because— He's going to explain to you that he Has listened to like 40,000 women over his 20 years of experience and come up with 12 archetypes of different hormonally imbalanced women. And you're, you're gonna fall into one of these 12 stories. You know, that's just how it works. And the amazing thing is that you could be one way for a few years, and then a few years later, you could be a different archetype. And so he's going to talk about all this, and it's just It's so easy to understand and you're going to relate to it. You're going to be like, oh my gosh, that is me, because he describes how these women feel and what they're going through. And then he has a protocol for each archetype on how you can get into balance and get out of that imbalance that you're in. And so I'm really excited about this book and I'm excited to talk to him today. I think every woman needs to hear this episode and I want you to share this episode with every woman you know, because we— the more we understand our bodies and what's going on, the more we can feel empowered to get back into balance. The more control we have of what's going on in our minds and our bodies and in our hearts and in our bellies and everything else. Like, the more that we can just get educated about our own bodies and Learn to listen to what our bodies are telling us. That's the key. It's like we're all complaining of things, you know, that's just human nature. We have complaints, we have symptoms, we have problems. But if you can figure out what your body is saying with those signals, that's gold, because then you can start altering your behaviors. You can change what you're doing or what you're eating. Or you can realize that you might be deficient in something or getting excess of something. And so once you start to learn what all of these signals and symptoms are meaning, then you can intervene, and that is really empowering. And that's pretty much why I do this podcast, is because I want you to realize that you are in control of your health and your vitality and your destiny. You really have so much say in how you perceive things, how you feel about them, how you react, and what your future looks like. So this is going to be an awesome conversation. Let me quickly just read a review that I got because it just made me smile so much. Protestantia says, you're an angel from God. That's so sweet. You have no clue how much light you are bringing to my 50 years dealing Under the tyranny of my imbalanced hormones. Wow, this will be a good episode for you. She says, "I've been learning so much just in one episode. That is insane. And as a natural quote unquote person, I absolutely love your approach on the subject. And yes, I'm already making changes. I am sure I'm finally in the right pathway to hormonal freedom. Thank you so much." Well, thank you because that just made my week. Like that is why I do this. That fills my heart that women are finally taking control. They're doing what they need to do to feel healthy again and to have vitality and actually live their best life and not just be in survival mode all the time. I did that for way too long as an obstetrician. I was in survival mode for over a decade, and you do not have to live like that. I told myself, I want to wake up early and have energy to exercise. And then I want to enjoy my morning and get my kids off to school and pack their lunches and hang out with my husband, and then have a nice, peaceful day where I can see my patients and enjoy them. I even said to one of my medical assistants, I want to be able to drink a cup of coffee while I'm talking to my patients. Like, these were my goals, and 3 years later, that is my life. I created the life that I wanted, and it took some sacrifices, right? I gave up my good salary job and the security and all that other stuff, but in return, I get to sleep now. I get to have control of, like, when I eat and what. I'm not always stressed out and overworked. Overworked, and I'm doing all the things that I said for so long that I wanted to do. And you can have that. That is my goal for this podcast, is for you to figure out what you want your look— life to look like, and then make it happen. Okay, so listen to this episode with Dr. Tassone because you're gonna get so much insight into what's going on with you personally. And get his book, read it, you know, and then keep it because you change and you might be a different archetype at some point. So I love this. Let me just tell you about Dr. Shawn Tassone real quick. So he's known as America's holistic gynecologist. He's the first physician in the United States to be double board certified in obstetrics and gynecology and by the American Board of Integrative Medicine. He holds a medical degree in addition to a PhD in mind-body medicine. So that is beautiful. He's going to talk a little bit about the spiritual aspects of healing, but you're going to see that in his book with all of his protocols. It's awesome. So he's a practicing OB-GYN in Austin, Texas. He's a hormone specialist, author, speaker, highly rated patient advocate, and creator of the world's first integrative hormonal mapping system. In his 20+ years of practice, Dr. Tassone has seen over 40,000 women. He's determined to remove the myths surrounding women's health. I love that. So as an integrative health practitioner, he believes that you should have an active role in your care. His work includes studies and publications on hormone imbalances, spirituality and medical care, whole foods to heal the human body, and integrative medicine. Dr. Tassone has been featured in many publications, including the New York Times, NBC News Online, Stanford MedX, and now his book, The Hormone Balance Bible, published by HarperCollins. So the links are in my show notes. I want you to get this book. I want you to get empowered. But first of all, let's listen to the episode. Enjoy. Well, welcome, Dr. Tassone, to the Functional Gynecologist Podcast.

You know, this is the first podcast I've done with an actual, another gynecologist.

Really? Oh my gosh, I'm so honored.

Great. I mean, I've always wanted to do a podcast, but you know how it just scares me to put yourself out there like that, even though I kind of am with my book, but you know, I'm happy for you and maybe one of these days I'll make the leap.

Yeah, you definitely should because you are a wealth of knowledge as we're going to, you know, show my listeners today. You have So much experience, so much wisdom, and you've put it all into this amazing book that's coming out. So that's what I want to talk about today.

Thanks. Yeah.

So, you know, I kind of know your backstory, but I'm sure my listeners would really like to know why you went into gynecology and then why you branched off into this holistic aspect of gynecology. Because honestly, I will tell you, I get a lot of women who say, Why do men want to be gynecologists? So I would love for you to just get that out on the table and just address it.

I think, you know, when we go through our 3rd and 4th years in medical school and we go through all the rotations, I, um, I really struggled with what I wanted to do. And I'm kind of a— if you look at, if you look at the different professions, and you know this when you're making that decision, they all have kind of their own personalities, you know, like internal medicine are the really kind of nerdy, smart, really, you know, you know, they love to do calculations people. And what I found was that OB, pediatrics, and family medicine were kind of like— those were the people that I would kind of hang out with. They were kind of fun and, and nice. And then, um, I liked surgery. I liked— I actually really liked internal medicine and was planning on doing internal medicine because I liked dealing with the complex scenarios. And I found that in obstetrics we take care of diabetes and thyroid and all this other stuff. So it was kind of medicine. And I did, but I didn't want to round all day, which is what internists do, at least about 50 years ago, or when I was training, it seems like 50 years ago. And so I just kind of, I liked ultrasound. And obviously when you're 27 and you think what you want to do, you think, oh, delivering babies is awesome, I could do this forever. And then you hit like 45 and you're like, oh my God, what was I thinking? Um, because you're worn out. But I think overall it's just a happy profession. Um, there wasn't much in the way of death and badness, and so, um, it just seemed to be a good fit for me. And that was, you know, back in '94 when I decided, and it wasn't as, you know, women— when I started residency, it was 50/50 at that point. Now it's much more dominated by women, which is great. But back then it just wasn't like, I mean, it wasn't like I had a hard time finding a job and now it's, it's, it's more difficult because women want women, which I totally understand. But also I think there's something to be said for just personality and experience.

Yeah, definitely. And I, I loved OB-GYN because I feel like you had a little bit of everything, right? Like you were saying, you get the happy patients, you get the complex situations, but not all the time. You get to do surgery and use your hands. and then the miracle of delivering babies. So I mean, it, you know, I completely see why men go into obstetrics. It's so fulfilling and rewarding. So, but I just wanted you to address that because women always ask me. Um, but I want to hear about your mother and, you know, you just, your transformation, because I feel like you grew so much as a physician. And as a person, just by, you know, your experience with what happened with your mom?

Well, I think growth happens obviously when you're under pressure and under, you know, strange circumstances sometimes. I was a second-year resident and kind of feeling at that point like I knew everything. I was a second-year resident, knew it all. We had this horrible saying that you heal with steel, meaning surgery and stuff, and You know, it was kind of, even though there were a lot of women in it, it was still very macho kind of practice. And, and then my mom got sick and was diagnosed with ovarian cancer when I was a second-year resident. So, you know, I knew all about the disease process and I knew everything that I could know. But what I found was that when she would go have her chemo and then multiple surgeries, what I had a problem, what I struggled with was I couldn't make her comfortable. I couldn't give her quality of life, and I could help her with the other stuff. But what really counted was the 5 years that she survived where she was miserable because she didn't have hormones and she, you know, had joint pain and, you know, the hair issues and all that stuff from the chemo. And so I felt rather hopeless. And so when she passed away at 56, I kind of— I'm an only child, so I had a lot of like— quiet time, and I didn't have a whole lot of people that I could share the experience with. And I was reading a book, and I joke, when you go through a spiritual kind of issue, you often go to Sedona. And I was living in Arizona at the time, so I went to Sedona for the weekend. And at the time was reading a book, it was 2001, by Andrew Weil called 8 Weeks to Optimum Health. At that time, he was talking about crazy stuff like fish oil and CoQ10 and magnesium. And I was like, what is this? This is crazy. And so, and the program was in Tucson, which is where I lived. And so I said, I'm going to do it. I just did this 2-year fellowship in integrative medicine at the University of Arizona. And in that process, there was this 8-week module where we talked about spirituality and health, which I grew up Catholic, but I never thought about spirituality. So then I just kind of like, I've really, really felt like I needed to learn more about that. Then I— that was my personal journey started there, I think, when I decided to do a PhD in philosophy, but it's more of a mind-body medicine twist to it. And so I traveled South America and lived with indigenous healers for a few weeks at a time and learned how to heal without medicine and learned kind of more about the mind-body connection. And I saw some pretty crazy things. Even now, sometimes I think about it and I'm like, how did I— I really have no way to explain some of it. So I learned that there's so much more out there. And, you know, going through that, I wasn't thinking that I was gonna— I was just doing this for me. You know, this was like a personal kind of hero's journey. And, and what I found was that I just started incorporating it into the way that I practice. And, and then over time, you know, the book came out of all of that. And so it's been kind of a great Great journey on the other side.

Yeah, I love that you figured out that there's just more to cutting the cancer out and giving the chemo, and there's a whole person who's struggling and who needs physical touch and positive energy and love and all of these other things. And, you know, you go out and you get your PhD in it. I mean, that's like taking it over the top, but that's pretty awesome. And now you're doing all of this beautiful work with patients. So thank you so much for, you know, writing this book. I want to talk about The Hormone Balance Bible because it's so cool. So give my listeners kind of a basic overview of what the book entails.

So it's funny you made the comment, you know, people ask, or women may think this thought, like, why, why would I want to listen to a man when I've got Sarah Gottfried and I've got Aviva Rome and Tabatha Barber and all these people. And it's like, this book, I have always said, it's not me telling women what to do. It's— I've over the last 20 years, I've really just sat and listened. That's kind of what we do. And what I noticed, and this was the basis of the book, is that over the years as I've really focused on hormones, Suzanne Somers put me as a reference in one of her books 6 years, like 12 years ago. And so I've gotten tons of patients over the years just from that and really developed this practice. But what I found was there were certain storylines that kept coming through and coming through. And just as I sat there and would listen, I would hear women with progesterone deficiency talk about how they couldn't sleep and how they were anxious during the day. And they had irregular periods and heavy periods and all this stuff. And so about probably 5 years ago, I started compiling all these stories and there were common threads. I booked them, I put them all into 12. I'm huge into archetypes. I like story, I like narrative medicine, and I find archetypes— I read a lot of Caroline Myss and Sally Hogshead, and they do a lot of archetype language. So what I found was that if I talked to patients in that lingo, like stories versus just saying, oh, you have estrogen dominance or testosterone deficiency, I would often see the light bulb go off, or they would cry because I was just kind of hitting the nail on the head after they'd been told for years that their hormones were fine and that they were just getting older and, you know, the whole story. And so I put these— I put all these into 12 storylines or what I call archetypes. So like estrogen dominance is the queen and testosterone deficiency is the nun, low thyroid is the underdog. And it really— and then I figured out, well, once I have this storyline, I How do we fix this without— hormones are important, but not the end-all be-all. So I came up with a 6-step process to fix each of these 12 that I've called the SHINES Protocol. That is a spiritual practice, hormones, infusuticals. Infusuticals are things that are like the energetic aspect of medicine, which is kind of what I've spent a lot of time looking at with my PhD. But acupuncture, essential oils, Reiki, healing touch, things like that. nutrition, exercise, and supplements. And so as you can see from that 6 steps, 5 of those are self-care. You don't even need a doctor for those. It's just the hormonal part that you might actually need a physician for. So that's what the book is about. It's all 12 of the archetypes. We talk— I talk about different types of testing, blood, serum, saliva. Talk about— I have a quiz that's not— everybody has a quiz now, but My quiz is 36 questions, and on the back end there's this pretty complex algorithm that I came up with because I majored in math in college. And so it's pretty accurate from, from what I see. I've probably had about 30,000 women take the quiz so far.

That's incredible. That is so cool. I mean, that's a lot of data right there. So yeah, you need to share this information. What is the most common archetype that you see on your quiz?

Going into it, I was pretty sure that it was going to be estrogen dominance, which it became because, you know, we've got problems in this world with exogenous estrogens in the food and stuff like that and obesity and birth control pills and things like that. But far and away, the number one archetype across the age spectrum is testosterone deficiency or the none. And I think that testosterone deficiency is basically the plague of the 21st century for women. I don't think it's talked about. I think that if there is— we know women are minimized by the medical system as it is, but in that particular aspect, it's not even discussed. And there are 10 or 12 FDA-approved medications for men. There are zero for women with regards to testosterone. So we compound things, but now the compounded hormones are being attacked. And so it's really hard. And I can tell you that women that are low in testosterone, At least what I see is, you know, fatigue, especially around 4 or 5 in the afternoon, hair thinning. Women often associate it with decreased libido, but it's more about decreased energy and feeling good about yourself because that then translates into libido. And, you know, sex is not just testosterone, as we're aware, for females. But I see it across the board all day long. Yeah.

Oh my gosh, I couldn't agree with you more. I find that Not only is it the most common, but it's the most underdiagnosed. People just aren't looking. Nobody is checking. Nobody's thinking about testosterone in women. I know that was my own issue. And it's like you have no energy. You're struggling to get through the day. Like you said, the hair falling out. You try to exercise and you can't get any muscle mass. You can't get any of that lean muscle to come on. You just— you're more tired, right? So, oh my goodness. This is so good. So what do you think is the first thing that women should be doing? Should they be going to their typical doctor and just asking for a testosterone check, or should they be searching out someone like us? I mean—

So there's 2 problems. One is in conventional medicine, physicians don't usually order— first of all, they may not even order testosterone, and if they do, They usually order a total testosterone and not a free testosterone. We need the free testosterone because that's the active form, as you know. The second thing, on the other side of the spectrum, we have the functional physicians who are not even physicians, but the functional practitioners who, they do a lot of testing, which is great, but then they really just want to sell a ton of supplements, and then they're not really totally helping the client. So There has to be this kind of middle ground, I think, where we can test blood or urine, however they want to do it. And we're looking at the values. So like free testosterone, a normal free testosterone is 0.2 to 6.4. And so most women that I see will come in under 1.0. So theoretically, I could multiply their testosterone levels 5 times or 6 times. they'd still be normal for a woman, but they might feel a heck of a lot better. And I always talk to patients about, so normal just means you're in the house, but where are you in the house? Are you laying on the floor in the basement? Which I personally wouldn't want that view.

No.

I wouldn't think that felt very good. But we tell women all the time, I can't tell you how many patients come see me, their testosterone is 0.4, and they're told, oh, you're normal. That's just a part of getting older, you know, uh, work out more, you know, blah, blah, blah, the whole 9 yards.

Mm-hmm.

And, and the reality is at that point, it's like, plus testosterone for females as well as males, it's a feel-good hormone. It helps with mood, it helps just your overall sense of well-being. And if you don't have testosterone to go work out or to feel like you mentioned, you're not gonna be able to do it 'cause at 4 in the afternoon you're crashed and you're tired. And so I just think that we on both ends of the spectrum aren't really doing what we could do to really focus on this problem. But I will tell you, when I post on testosterone on Instagram or something, by far that is my most engaged kind of post. I mean, obviously women want to learn more about it. They want to hear more about it. I just don't think there's a lot of people talking about it.

Yeah. And let's take a step back. Why do you think we are seeing so much testosterone deficiency in women?

Probably a lot of reasons. I think primarily as women get into their 30s and 40s, because they're doing so much more with such, you know, in so much the same amount of time, they're working more, they're working out more, is they're not sleeping. I think sleep is a huge proponent. I think weight in this country is, you know, obviously a little out of control. And as you know, As women gain weight, their estrogen levels may increase, which then increases sex hormone-binding globulin, drops the free testosterone, makes it not work as well. Birth control pills. I mean, you know, I'm not anti-birth control pill. I prescribe them. I think they're great for birth control. And they're kept on these birth control pills for 5, 10 years until they hit menopause. I just had a 53-year-old last week that was on birth control pills. And it's like, you know, not only do we have risks with the pill, but it really lowers your testosterone levels. That's actually, I think, one of the ways we're coming to find that it works is it decreases sex drive in women because of the lower testosterone. So there's a lot of reasons. I think that, you know, we have a lot of estrogens again in the food supply. Not that that's probably at the top of my But it doesn't help. And I think that's a lot of it is we're just stressed out. Cortisol levels are super high because people, especially women, are going to work and they've got these high-powered jobs now. And then they're coming home and they're running the home because they still have that role. And they're just worn out.

Yeah, exactly. And I get a lot of women who are very surprised when I say, we're talking about low libido and I say, well, You've been on birth control pill for 10 years. Maybe we should try going off that and see what happens. And I will tell you, most of those women get their libido back, but, you know, they get upset because their gynecologist didn't necessarily tell them that was going to be an issue or side effect. And I don't know about you, but I wasn't taught to tell them that, you know, birth control pill, that's the answer. Let's put them on it. I want people to be empowered by this knowledge, but not frustrated and upset, because I think that we're all just trying to do our best as, you know, trained physicians. And that is the tool that we were given. That is what we knew. And so you just have to make the best of it. And now that we know better, we do better, right? And I'm in the camp with you, like birth control pill is amazing for birth control. I Wouldn't have gone to college if I didn't have the birth control pill. You know, it helped me accomplish a lot in my life. So I don't think it's like, you know, the pill's evil, but we need to take it in context and see if that is the best option for you as an individual, right?

Yeah. And I think, you know, the— if you want to get, you know, split hairs, we have done a serious disservice to women because there is no real male birth control. It's all, you know, it's just condoms. And that's not your fault or my fault. We have to kind of practice within what we have available to us. But yes, I mean, worldwide, women are completely responsible for the birth control and family planning more than the men. If the men care at all, they'll get a vasectomy. But even then, most men won't do that. I've often joked that the best form of female birth control is vasectomy. But don't do it.

Yeah, exactly. So I love this testosterone conversation because I think a lot of women don't realize that it's kind of a big deal in their life. So do you feel like there's benefits to being on testosterone replacement, especially after menopause? What do you— how do you feel about that?

So when the ovaries stop functioning at menopause, about 50% of your testosterone production basically goes away. Now, and that's assuming that the adrenal glands are already keeping up with the other 50% and producing enough DHEA and things like that, which in most cases doesn't, doesn't really happen. And so for a lot of women, um, they'll go on progesterone and estrogen, but they don't often go on testosterone because it's just not safe. simply something that's mentioned to them. And yeah, I think it's— there's a lot of our colleagues on Instagram that are kind of bashing this whole concept of hormonal balance. And I think it's funny because that's the name of my book. But it's not about— there are many times in a woman's life when imbalance is what I would consider biologically normal. You know, menopause is one, pregnancy is another. When you start your periods at menarche, that's another one. Even at certain times during your cycle, it's normal for the hormones to be, you know, imbalanced per se. When I find that it's a problem for women, like with testosterone, is when it interferes with the way that they want to live their life. And so when that hormone imbalance— to tell women that hormone imbalance doesn't exist To me is misogynistic and is doctor-splaining and, and really medical gaslighting again, because it's like, for women that have low testosterone, I can tell you because I've seen it thousands of times, is that the slightest increase in their testosterone levels can make a pretty dramatic change in just their well-being. I see it all the time. And, and it's not necessarily in everybody because everybody's different. But sometimes I gotta use topicals, sometimes I use sublinguals. Um, you know, obviously I'm not a proponent of pellets. I don't like pellets, but that's another option that a lot of women have. Um, and so yeah, I think testosterone, especially during menopause, is, is, is a huge factor for women that just want to feel better. And you know what's sad is that that's the time in a woman's life when— because I'm in that age group right now and I'm single, so I date women that are in their 50s— and that's the time in their life when they can Their kids are grown up, they're empty nesters, and they want to go out and explore life. And even if you have a relationship already and you're married, you know, you've already got your partner and the kids aren't there. And that's the time when you can kind of get back to that period in your life when you first got married, when it was, you know, the kids weren't in the way bothering you and stuff. And so, but if you have low testosterone, and then what happens is men are all on testosterone now because there's a testosterone clinic on every corner.

Right, right.

Getting jacked up and we're ignoring the females, which then makes that, uh, dichotomy, that sex drive issue even more apparent. Yes.

I mean, that's a great point because women, they want to keep their husbands happy or their partners. They want to have that intimacy and that relationship. But yeah, if the divide's getting bigger and bigger, that's not going to help anybody. So I agree. I feel like even a little bit of testosterone can go a long way in giving women their vitality back and just like turning their brains back on almost, you know, it's like the lights go out or something and this just turns the light back on. So I think for some women it can be an amazing thing, you know. So what is your favorite way to test? I've heard you talk about blood work and urine, you know, I think you think a lot of the way I do, but I just want to hear like, what is your typical approach when you see patients?

So the 3 methods that we have available: saliva, blood, and urine. Saliva, I'm not, you know, being a— I haven't seen the data that shows it's reproducible or reliable. It is good for cortisol, so I will sometimes have patients that will do cortisol testing, salivary cortisol testing. The other 2 options, and I would say I'm probably 80% blood, 20% urine, because we talked about this Before we came on, I'm 100% insurance-based right now, and so women that come see me would like to use their insurance. So I order blood tests. The benefit to blood is that it's obviously super accurate because it's what's in your blood. The results come back within a couple of days. It's usually covered by insurance, and you can test vitamin D and thyroid with blood. The downside to blood is that it's basically only accurate while the needle is in your arm, so it's really literally just a snapshot. But I will order it because I know where the patient is in her cycle, I know what time of day we've ordered it, and if— and it's a data point. So if we're getting multiple tests over, say, a year, we get 2 or 3 tests, that just helps me hone in on things. So blood is fine, you just have to be a little more vigilant with it. Urine is also a great method of testing. Urine is a 24-hour test. It was the gold standard when we were growing up in medicine to do a 24-hour urine, although women had to pee in a bucket and put it in the fridge, and it was super expensive because it wasn't usually covered by insurance. But it tests all the sex hormones that we all— that we've talked about. It checks melatonin, and it checks cortisol and vitamin— some of the vitamin Bs and neurotransmitters and things like that, and it also tests metabolism of your estrogen breakdown and testosterone, which is great to have. The downside to urine is it doesn't check vitamin B or vitamin D or thyroid, and it doesn't— it takes about 3 weeks to get the results back, and it costs about $350, give or take, somewhere in that neighborhood. And there's no right or wrong way. I just think it's whatever you want to do as the patient. I think a lot of patients feel they have to do one or the other. I have some do both, but realistically for my practice, it's about 80% blood.

Yeah, I feel the same way. I usually give my patients the option. It's like, you're paying the bill, you know, it's up to you, but we can definitely get more information with the Dutch urine test, especially if we're concerned about too much bad estrone, you know, breast cancer risk, uterine cancer, fibroids, endo, all of that stuff. Um, so can you talk a little bit more about your archetypes? So you said testosterone excess is the most. What would you say is, you know, the next 2?

The estrogen dominance, uh, the Queen. And I came up with the names for obvious reasons. The testosterone deficiency, um, I joke I called it The Nun because you don't want none and you ain't getting none. But nuns, obviously the good nuns, don't have sex and don't want sex. Now, the other thing that I do with these stories is I also look at things like nuns are— they're super intelligent, they're productive, they're loyal. There's a lot of positive aspects. When being a nun becomes a problem, and I talked about that, when it interferes with your life is when Nuns are cloistered, so they stay in the house. They don't ever go out. Um, they, they, they kind of become this cloistered person. Uh, the second one is a queen, and like, uh, that's estrogen dominance. And I called it the queen because the, the, the, the biggest female hormone is estrogen, and the, um, the woman that is in, uh, is a very powerful, uh, presence is a queen. Obviously, you can be an off-with-your-head type queen.

Mm-hmm.

You could be Oh, queen. Estrogen dominance tends to be those symptoms of off with your head. The third one that I see a lot is low thyroid or subclinical hypothyroidism. I call those women underdogs because these are women that are, they're making do with what they have, but they're not really living up to their potential because they feel tired and they feel like they're walking in mud and they're getting the daily routine done, but they're underdogs. That's what the archetype is because they don't have what they need to really live up to their full potential. So if we talk about them, I'll list them all real quick. The queen is estrogen dominance. Progesterone deficiency is called the unbalanced heroine because the hero's journey for women is pregnancy and that's progesterone dominated. So women that have low progesterone, I named it the unbalanced heroine. We talked about the underdog, hyperthyroidism is the Overachiever. High cortisol is the workaholic. Low cortisol is the saboteur, and I call them saboteurs because these are women that take care of everybody else at their own expense. They're not taking care of themselves, so self-care is super important. We look at the nun as low testosterone. High testosterone, which is rare in women, I call those women warriors. Low estrogen is called the wise woman. That's That's menopause. If you combine a wise woman with a nun, you get a philosopher. So the women that are in menopause that have low testosterone and low estrogen are philosophers. Hypercortisol, so you've got high cortisol, high estrogen, so that's a queen with a workaholic. Those are the— that's the chairwoman because she's just handling her business and she's a queen of her domain. And she's in hyperdrive with her cortisol. And then the last one is another combo one is if you have, if you're high estrogen and low progesterone, which I see a lot, that's a queen combined with an unbalanced hero. That's the mother, because mothers are queens of where they live, but they're also unbalanced because they're not sleeping well because the kids are all with them all the time. And they're just, you know, it's a— So those are the 12 archetypes and their storylines with all of them. And Each of the chapters has how to fix them, and, you know, it's a good read. The great thing about the book is it's not like a front-to-back read, and it's called a bible because it's like 512 pages. It's got a ton of information, but it's also one of those things where if you just hang on to the book, 2 years down the road you take the quiz again or you get some blood drawn again, you could be a different archetype. So you can, you can help keep yourself kind of balanced no matter where you are.

Yeah, I think that's so awesome. Like you're saying, just keep it because we go through changes. We're not always one archetype. We don't always have one hormonal pattern. We, we change as our lifestyle changes, as our age, all of that. So I would love to see medical students and GYN residents reading this book and carrying it around in their white coat like they carry around, you know, whatever we carried around, I don't even remember. But, you know, I do think that this stuff is so important, and this information isn't learned in conventional medicine in the detail that you're explaining it. And you just make it so easy with these archetypes. So I, I want you to push for like getting it into residency programs. I think that would be awesome. So—

If you have a connection, that'd be great. But I don't think In a lab coat, but that's okay with me if they want to try.

We might have to make the crib version, the little, you know, note version. Um, so you go through all these archetypes, you describe these women in their different, you know, hormonal types. What's the next? You said there's a protocol. Is it the same for every archetype, or you you really individualize like how these women should be living?

Yeah. So the, the, the whole point of the, of the archetype is that then each of those has its own unique— some of them will overlap a little bit. And if you are a combination, like I talked about with the mother that's queen and, um, unbalanced hero, then, um, it will have obviously pieces of both of those. But let's just take, for instance, um, the, the queen, which is estrogen dominance. Uh, the spiritual practice, um, for a queen might be something like, um, queens need to, to, to rule their kingdoms. They need to have a really strong set of advisors around them, right? So they need to tap into that maternal female archetype in their own lives. And I would say surround yourself with either other queens that you trust and admire, or Just have good friends, good advisors, people around you that support you and have your back kind of a thing. That to me is a spiritual practice. Hormonally, we want to try to get the estrogen levels down possibly or figure out why they're high. You can add progesterone if the progesterone is low to help offset some of that high estrogen. An infusiological— there's a friend of ours in this group we're in called Mindshare, a man named Harry Massey who has a company called NES Health. And what Harry did was he incorporated the power of acupuncture into water. So he imbues water with the energetic aspects of acupuncture. So, and, and my I, the I in the SHINES Protocol, is that 20% woo factor that I like to say. You know, there's a lot of people that want to try other things And so energetic integrators where you put these drops into waters could help. Water can help. Acupuncture can certainly help with hormone imbalances. Essential oils like clary sage and, you know, things like that can help. Nutritionally, you want to make sure that those women aren't eating too much in the way of phytoestrogens, so I talk about that a little bit. I also talk about increasing fiber because fiber will grab onto excess estrogen in the blood and hold it in the stool so you can help remove some excess estrogen. Exercise for queens to me is really just getting out there and doing something. I think for them I recommend high-intensity interval training, whether it's like something like Orangetheory or F45, lifting weights, things like that. And then finally supplements can depend on how you process estrogen, so it could be something like DIM, It could be something like fiber. And if you're— if you don't have enough enzymatic reactions in the gut with glucuronidase, because glucuronidase cleaves off the exogenous estrogen from your stool and lets it go back into the blood. So if you have high estrogen, we want to block that by taking something called calcium D-glucarate, which is a supplement you can just buy. And so there's— yeah, so that would be specific to that archetype. And then each archetype has That is awesome.

I love that. And so many good, just like practical things that women can actually do, and you don't even have to go to the doctor.

Yeah.

Um, I heard you on another podcast once talking about like different exercise depending on what kind of hormonal situation you're in. Can you speak to that a little bit? Because I think it's super important, especially like a high Cortisol one. What did you call her?

Workaholic.

The workaholic. Yeah. Let's talk about how should she exercise?

So the workaholic and the saboteur are kind of like a before and after. So saboteurs are usually workaholics that just then burn out. Yeah. And so a woman that actually has high cortisol, this is a woman that probably is okay expending some excess energy because she's just Internally, and it could be high because you're not sleeping. It could be high because you're overly stressed. And so it really just depends on the reason why your cortisol— and that comes from, you know, talking and figuring, you know, figuring out. I'm a huge fan of weights. I think you can, if you know, you can push around some heavier weights, that'll kind of get some of that, some of that out. They, they have the extra energy to burn, but you have to be careful because again, you're already kind of pushing yourself super hard. That's why your cortisol could be elevated. So I don't want you going overboard, but really just getting out there and doing something. And then when they go the other way, and now they're at the saboteur phase, interestingly enough, some of these women are suffering from weight gain and things. And there's a friend of ours that I won't mention her name, but she came to me as a patient and she had— she's a fitness person online. She's got a YouTube channel that has tens of thousands of followers and she's 50. So she focuses on women that are over 50. And I found out she had low cortisol. And so my recommendation to her was to not work out. Like, don't work out, just walk or do something low intensity. And she freaked out. She's like, I can't do that. I I work out for a living, it's what I do. And so I said, just trust me. So she really toned it down for a month and she lost 7 pounds, and she didn't work out as much as she was working out. And I think it was just because she was overdoing it. I think the cortisol was low because she was so focused on her business. She was— she burned through everything. It's like burning the candle at both ends, but with the blowtorch. That's kind of how you get to that saboteur phase. And you have to take care of yourself. And sometimes that means not going out and working out. Maybe go for a walk, but don't do anything extensive.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. So sorry, my dog's trying to eat a fly. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, I see it so often, especially women trying to train for marathons or any kind of extensive exercise where they're really Really pushing it, long cardio for an hour or 2. That is really hard on your adrenals. And I get patients who, you know, they're like 1 year post-marathon and they can't stop gaining weight and they have no energy. It's because you just burnt yourself out. So you're right on the mark. I want everybody to read your book. I think it's gold. I think I love it. So thank you so much for writing this. I just think it's so important.

Well, it took a long time. You know, it's funny because when you get to this point, people are like, oh, this guy came out of nowhere. And it's like, well, let's see, I did that 2-year fellowship, I did a 6-year PhD, the book took 5 years to put together. And it's funny because I'm trying not to be attached to the outcome of, you know, the book and how many it sells. That's always a part of it. I think it, you know, We wouldn't have any ego if we didn't care at all. But I think it's like, if I can help a couple of women, you know how it is, sometimes you get those, those positive reviews or something, and that's just it. That's what makes you feel better that you have that. And this is the other thing is this isn't me again. This isn't me telling women. This is me listening to 40,000 women over the last 20 years and, and really distilling this down into stories. And I'm just— I've always been— when I spent that time in South America and worked with indigenous people, what they do is it's really about stories. It's about their past, it's about their future. And the shamans in the villages, because they live there, they know these people. We don't have that always in our practice, you know, because we don't live in the communities where we grew up and stuff sometimes. So it's great to learn with stories.

Thank you so much for joining me all the way from Hawaii. I mean, that just shows your dedication to women and just you being a patient advocate. It's so beautiful. So thank you so much. Yeah, so let me know, where can my listeners find you?

So my website is just my last name, tassoned.com. There's a page on there for the book, obviously. Currently, there is a— we have a course called the SHINES Course. It's just a generic course that's included. I have a package right now because I'm, you know, selling the book where it's included with the book where I just go through the 6 steps with and give some examples just so women can kind of get an idea in general. Eventually, there will be a SHINES Course. Check that out. archetypes. Um, obviously the book's for sale on Amazon, Barnes& Noble, Books-A-Million, all those retail websites, and it will be, uh, out on July 6th.

Awesome, so good. So I'll have all those links in my show notes. Everybody should follow you on Instagram and check out your book, get signed up. So thank you so much, Dr. Tassone. Take care. Okay, ladies, I hope you're really excited to get this book, The Hormone Balance Bible, because, like I said, it's going to help you understand you better. It's going to give you a picture of what's going on, and more importantly, it's going to give you actual tools of what you can do to get out of that imbalance. And, you know, like Dr. Tassone said, maybe in a couple of years you're a different archetype. So keep that around as you know kind of the Bible, something that you can use to reference. So I love this. I hope that you found one golden nugget that you can take away from this episode, and tell me what it is. I want to hear from you ladies. Like you know, hit me up on Facebook and Instagram at Dr. Tabatha. It's T A B A T H A. No eyes. Let me know, like, what are you doing? What are you getting out of these episodes? Because I do this for you. I'd be forever grateful if you'd hit me a 5-star review. That lets iTunes and everybody know that you want to hear this information. And we need to support each other as women. We need to educate, get educated, and spread the word. I just, I love it so much. So go out, have a kick-ass week, and know that you can be the best version of yourself. First, you have to visualize it, right? And then you have to realize the steps that it takes to get there. And something like Dr. Stone's book is going to help you get to that next level because you're going to have tools, you're going know, like, spiritually how you can heal, how you can get hormonally balanced, what you should be doing specifically for your hormonal imbalance as far as nutrition and supplements and exercise. So it's not a one-size-fits-all. We're all in these unique situations. And so if you can figure out what's going on with you, then you'll, you know, I would be feeling amazing. So here's the deal. I am licensed in over half the country. The few states I'm not licensed in, I can see you as a health coach and still help you figure all of this out. But I'm telling you, like, don't hesitate to reach out to me at drtabatha.com. Schedule a new patient appointment with me. I will help you figure out what archetype you are. Are you having issues in other areas? You know, I do all the blood work testing, the urine testing, the saliva testing, the stool testing, food sensitivity testing. Oh my gosh, you name it. So we take a deep dive and we really figure out what's going on with you as an individual, because that's where you get the most success. And I'm here for you. So don't hesitate to reach out if you have questions, concerns, schedule a new patient visit with me, and let's get you figured out and get you feeling amazing again. Okay. All right. Go have a kick-ass week, ladies. Take care.