Get Gut Smart with Dr. Vincent Pedre

Hi, I'm Dr. Tabitha, the gutsy gynecologist. I'm a triple board certified, OB, GYN and Functional Medicine physician. I've embraced the world of functional medicine and wellness through my own personal health journey. And I'm super excited to share my wisdom and unique perspective as it pertains to women's health. After caring for thousands of women, I've come to realize that your gut health determines your gyne health and your overall health. And it's a super gutsy thing for me to go against conventional gynecology practice to bring you the truth. No more band aid medicine, ladies. We're talking root cause resolution on this show. So if you're struggling with hormone imbalance, weight gain period issues, anxiety, insomnia, you name it, then you've come to the right place. And I want to be your gutsy gynecologist. So welcome. Well, welcome back. You are going to love my guest this week. I connected with him right away. We are in a mastermind together for health entrepreneurs. And he is just a positive energy. He is a visionary. He's always like, trying to make an impact in the world and do amazing things for his patients. And he just, he's having fun doing it. He loves life. And so I'm obviously drawn to that type of person. I kind of feel that same way about myself. And so when we get together, we have a lot of fun. He's an amazing salsa dancer. And I just remember, like, the first time I really got to talk to him, we were doing polar plunging. So that is when you sit in ice water for, you know, two to three minutes, you. And it's called cryotherapy. And it stimulates an immune response and helps regulate your stress response and your adrenal glands. And it's just so good for you. And it was my first time ever doing it. Okay, so I get into this polar plunge and I'm terrified. I don't do well with cold. I freaked out. I screamed JJ Virgin pushed me under so that my shoulders were underwater. It was so cold. Oh, my gosh, it was unbearable. And I lasted, I don't know, 40 seconds maybe, and I hopped out and I watched a number of people do the polar plunge. We were all kind of taking turns, mind you. We're in Palm springs and it's 110 degrees outside, so don't feel bad for me. As soon as I walked onto the cement, I was warmed back up. My feet were all tingly and crazy feeling. But anyway, we get to Dr. Vincent Pedre, and he Slides in there, cool as a cucumber, and literally lays in the ice water, I kid you not, for over seven minutes. And so I sit there and I study him. Like, how is this guy in this ice freezing water that I couldn't even stand for a minute? How is he possibly doing this? And I watched his breathing techniques and his mindful meditation that he was doing. He was still talking to us, so he wasn't, like, off in another world, but he was definitely using some techniques. And I thought, okay, this guy knows how to control his nervous system, and I need some of that. And it turns out that that's really important when it comes to your gut health and just your health in general. And I think Dr. Pedre is a great example of the mind, body, spirit connection and how functional medicine really is a tool for your overall health. Like the way that he. He was controlling his nervous system and his stress response is so impressive. But it also is the biggest reason that he was able to overcome some major chronic medical conditions. So he's going to talk about that. He's going to talk about the fact that as a kid, he grew up with a terrible state stomach. He had chronic gut issues that manifested as allergies, skin responses, all kinds of crazy symptoms, chronic sinus infections, things that conventional doctors are not connecting the dots with and associating with gut health. And so he has made it his mission to really help us understand these connections of our gut health with our other systems and how it all impacts each other. And I was just so impressed by his ability to control his nervous system and navigate that experience. I was like, okay, he's pretty amazing. I can learn some things from him. And then we danced the night away at a party, and that was, you know, the icing on the cake.

So.

So he's an awesome guy. You're going to love him. Definitely. Follow him on Instagram. He's got a new book coming out. It's called the Gut Start Protocol. And I'm really excited about it because it goes along with his book, Happy Gut, and this book that's coming out April 4th. It's going to actually give you the tools to do this on your own. He walks you step by step. There is a quiz. You're going to figure out exactly what. What type of gut you have and what you need. So we're going to talk about all that today. You're going to love this interview. It's so good. So send this to all your friends. Share it with everybody you know, because honestly, gut health is where it's at if you want to get rid of chronic headaches, chronic sinus problems, allergies, eczema, acne, like, the list goes on and on. And, and that's not even mentioning, like, gut stuff like bloating, diarrhea, constipation, irritable bowel, all that other stuff. Like, literally, you can have gut issues without gut symptoms. So you're going to learn all about this today. This is an awesome interview. So let me just quickly sing his praises. Dr. Vincent Pedre is the medical director of the Pedre Integrative Health, and he's the founder of Dr. Pedre Wellness, CEO, founder of Happy Gut Life, and he's worked as a nutraceutical consultant and spokesperson for Nature MD he's also a functional medicine certified practitioner with a concierge practice in New York City since 2004. So that made me really happy because I get so many of you reaching out to me from New York, New Jersey, Rhode island, and I, I can't help you because of the laws in those states. So go see Vincent. He is amazing. He believes the gut is the gateway to excellent wellness. And his newest book, like I mentioned, like we talked about, the Gut Smart protocol, features a 14 day personalized gut healing plan on the Gut Smart Quiz. And it's the culmination of his years of research and clinical experience as a functional gut health expert. So let's dive into this conversation. I know that you're going to want to share it with everybody and take the quiz and let me know what you think. All right, ladies. Well, welcome, Dr. Pedre, to the Gutsy Gynecologist Show.

I'm so excited to have this conversation with you and be on your show. I know we've hung out a lot at different events and I love just chatting with you. So I think it's going to be a great conversation.

Oh, my gosh, same here. Like, you are a wealth of knowledge and you know everything that my women need to know. Like, gut health is so important to me when as a gynecologist and you just make it fun. Like, I love your energy, your positivity, and you always bring the amazing, fun, positive energy because talking about poop, people are embarrassed and they don't want to, you, you know, talk about this. Like, literally, I'll have patients go, why are you asking me this? Right? You probably hear that too. And it's like, we just have to get rid of the stigma around this conversation. And you're the perfect person. So thank you.

Ah, thank you. I like to try to make it fun. And I feel like we've got to make light of things sometimes that are a bit heavy. And it's not like you want to dismiss the, the seriousness of some of these issues, but I think bringing in some, some lightness, some humor like I do on Instagram with my reels. Yeah, I think helps people. It's just another way to capture people's attention and teach them something. But also, you know, take away some of the heaviness around some of these subjects.

Exactly. And to this day, even though I call myself the gutsy gynecologist, I talk about how gut health determines guy in Health all the time. Every day I still get new women going, what? Wait, what's happening? And I love that you've been doing this for so long now and that you talk about the gut brain connection and just how the gut really drives all of our systems functions. And I would love for you to share how you even got into this because I love your story. I think understanding how the gut drives the nervous system and the nervous system drives the gut is so powerful when you actually can like get some tools and figure out how to change it. Because so many women are struggling like you did and like I did with IBS and all these problems. And it doesn't have to be that way. Right. So I'm glad that you went on this journey as uncomfortable as it was, but I want you to share that with us.

Got it. I, I, I do want to say this, you know that I, I, I remember having gut issues since I was a little kid.

Yeah, me too.

And they went through a spectrum of things like severe constipation because I basically only ate meat and starches and pasta, but didn't like eating any greens, any fiber rich foods. So I, I suffered from severe constipation when I was a little kid. Almost embarrassing to say because it was to the point where like late night crying, like, want to go to the bathroom? Can't go to the bathroom, mom is chasing me with a laxative liquid that tastes horrible. And then eventually that morphed into a whole different thing, a very sensitive stomach. Like whenever I had tests and performances, I used to play the piano. And before I went on, like, I had to time my eating, so I had to make sure that I had eaten more than two hours before I was on stage. You know, depending on the day, you know, you need to have the energy. But if I had food in my stomach right before I went on stage, I was going to get nauseous. Sick because I felt like I had butterflies in my stomach. And so I, like many of those people out there, they call high sensitivity people empaths. I felt a lot through my digestive system. And then eventually I've been, you know, like any kid, you get sick, your parents take you to the pediatrician and the pediatrician gives you antibiotics. And then you get sick again and the parents take you to the pediatrician, you have a sore throat, you have a sinus pressure, you have a, you know, maybe you have a cough and they give you another antibiotic. Well, that was me two to three times per year to the point that I was on 20 plus rounds of antibiotics by the end of my teenage years. And there is no way your gut microbiome can recover from that. Not only that, but my immune system was shot to the point, I don't know if you remember this, but when I was a kid, they used to give gamma globulin shots and my parents would take me to the doctor when I wasn't responding to an antibiotic and they would give me. And I hated shots. I so hated getting shots. But they would give me gamma globulin shot and within 24 hours I was feeling better. Why? Because basically that gamma globulin shot was like a surrogate immune system for my immune system, which was completely shot because my gut was inflamed. I had lost my, you know, my microbiome, my good bacteria. I probably had leaky gut. I developed sensitivities to gluten and dairy and, and a host of some other foods. Didn't know that I was poisoning myself by eating cereal with milk for breakfast, a sandwich for lunch, my mom taking me to get a Burger King vanilla milkshake on the way home from school every day. And I just kept getting sick over and over and over to the point where I was a hypochondriac. I didn't want to be around sick people. I was afraid when someone had a cough, I would have probably been double masking in the last two years. But it was also kind of what motivated me to go to medical school, was to understand the immune system, understand why am I getting sick so much. And yet the most important thing I needed to learn, I didn't learn in medical school. Yeah, because it wasn't until afterwards when I discovered functional medicine that I realized, wait a second, I need to reevaluate the story of what I thought happened to me. Wait a second. I was on 20 plus rounds of antibiotics as a child. I was eating A lot of wheat and dairy and, and I had still not completely cut these things out when, when I discovered functional medicine. And by then I'm already a fully trained doctor. I've gone and done my residency training and I'm living with ibs, irritable bowel syndrome. And I think that this is just my matrix. This is my makeup, this is my normal. How many people, I bet your listeners are listening, thinking, wait a second, I thought that bloating was normal. I thought that feeling this way was normal because you just become desensitized to the way your body is all the time. And even as a doctor, I thought, well, I mean, the remedies out there are antacids, antispasmodics, antidiarrheals, or medicines to make you go to the bathroom. And I thought, they're all band Aids. So I guess this is just about learning to live with it for the rest of your life.

That's what we're trained as conventional doctors. How do you live with it? How do you make it manageable? That's what they teach us. And I remember feeling the same way, like, oh, I guess I just live with my Hashimoto's. I guess I live with my ibs. I guess I live with all these problems. And that's me. And that's how it is. And yeah, functional medicine is a game changer. And it's really cool. I was just having a flashback when you said you, you realized the course of your life, what had happened, because when you go through functional training, they have you do that on yourself, right? They have you do the time where you look to see what are the root causes and how did I end up this way? You know, you mentioned you had sinus infections. All these things were being driven by the gut. And no doctor is ever putting those pieces of the puzzle together. How frustrating.

No one was putting the pieces of the puzzle together. And yet I did grow up in a household where my dad was very much into supplements and much to our, you know, making fun of him. He had done a food sensitivity test back in the 80s through some doctor, some, I, I don't know, he. And, and he had a whole list of foods that he was taking out of the diet. And us kids, we thought this was silly. And then at one point he posted a skull and crossbones list of all the restaurants which were fast food that we should not eat at. And you know, us as kids, we thought, this is funny. Like, look at our dad. Like, he's right, health nut. And yet that that stuff filtered in. And I was always kind of observant and curious. When I got into medical school and started first year, I couldn't sit down and have cereal with milk for breakfast because I just had to run out the door. My classes started like 8 in the morning, so I stopped having as much milk. Milk suddenly was out of my diet and I wasn't getting sick as often.

Imagine that.

And, you know, so here I am, a medical student, learning embryology, learning all this stuff, not learning any nutrition, but, you know, kind of paying attention to. Wait a second, like people around me are sick, but I'm not picking it up the way I used to. What changed? Oh, I'm not having dairy. So maybe dairy is a problem now. I didn't fully integrate it because I didn't still fully understand. So there were, you know, there was ice cream, there was like little places where there was cheese, little places where dairy snuck in. And, you know, eventually I realized that it's just not worth it. I love cheese. I really do love cheese. And especially like sheep's cheese. Manchego. So I did this experiment over the series of years where I started figuring out, okay, if I cut out dairy during the fall cold and flu season, can I, you know, can I get through and not get sick? And I realized, okay, I feel much better. What if I do it through winter and into spring? Dr. Pedre, this is the worst allergy season ever. I'm like, I don't even have allergies. And I used to when I was eating dairy, I had allergies when my gut was all messed up. I had severe allergies when I went to college. And that's right after I had been on so many rounds of antibiotics and I was still eating wheat and dairy while I was in college. Suddenly, allergies, gone. The only way I know that it's allergy season is the pollen accumulates inside my eyelids. And then, you know, I can tell those really high pollen count days just because my eyes get irritated. But otherwise all of these things, like these gut related health issues started healing. I had dry skin, I had eczema that was coming up on my hands. And it got worse in the hospital from washing the hands and wearing the gloves and all that. But I didn't realize that it was gluten that was triggering the eczema.

Okay, are you my brother from another mother? Like, literally, you're explaining my whole life like this has been my life. Exactly. And it's so obvious now, but gosh, it took a long Time. And then we get these mixed messages from conventional medicine that, that's just crazy. That's not really the problem, you know. You know the worst, I was so confused.

The worst thing has been over my career is when I've, I've had patients come to see me. I had a patient with Hashimoto's and ankylosing spondylitis. She was HLA B27 positive and she had been dependent on NSAIDS. We got her off of NSAIDS by going gluten free, dairy free, like really cleaning out the diet, working on the gut microbiome. And she was doing great. She had been dependent on, I think she was on one of the COX2 inhibitors, like Celebrex or something. She, she goes to an allergist. The allergist tells her that all of that is nonsense, that gluten and dairy aren't going to increase her pain. So she goes on a, on a vendor and her, I think her, she was at a kid's birthday party and had some cake and there was pizza and so this was this. And I had just seen her two weeks before and she was great. And she calls me in an all out panic the week after, like I'm having the worst exacerbation ever. And I get the message from my secretary and I'm thinking, wait a second, like I just saw her, she's doing these things like she's, and she's taking omega 3 fish oils, like she was doing great. So I get on the phone with her and she's telling me about how her pain and all this and, and you know, as doctors we should always ask this question. Did anything change?

Right, right. What changed?

You know, did you, you know, don't, don't ever assume that things are the same as where you left them off with the patient because patients do all sorts of things. Yeah, well, she had been to this doctor who told her, you know, all this is nonsense. And I asked her, well, did you do anything different? She's like, well, I went to Dr. So and so, and he said that I could eat gluten and dairy. Like that's nonsense. I'm not allergic to them. And I, you know, had a bunch of gluten and dairy over the weekend. And I've had this philosophy with raising a son and I kind of have the same philosophy as a doctor that I think experience is a great teacher. Oh, without a doubt it is a great teacher. So I just asked her, well, what do you think now? Do you think that gluten and Dairy maybe had something to do with this. And she's like, yeah, wow.

I, I've had the same patient stories. Like, it is a real thing, of.

Course, and you do it, you know, with love and compassion for their journey. But sometimes the journey has to be theirs, you know, and the choice has to be theirs. And when you experience something like this, then you realize, okay, this is not a game. This is not a test. This is like, this is just the way I need to be because my body does not react well. The matrix doesn't work with, with these foods. And, and you know, she, we got her back really quickly because the other great thing, when you've done so much work on the gut and healing, even if you have a slip up, it's not going to take as long as it did initially to get back to baseline. So it only took, it was really quick. You know, the first part took months of healing. But a weekend slip up, you know, you can get things back into control depending on your underlying issues. You know, if you have celiac and you go on a gluten bender, you're gonna be, you're not gonna feel well for a bit.

Yeah.

But, you know, it depends always on your underlying health issues. But I do think, you know, sometimes experience is a good teacher. And as doctors, we're there just to hold people's hands and, and guide them through and give them, you know, that, that unconditional. But tough love. I'm a tough lover, you know, and I, I kind of switch with people. Sometimes you gotta be a little more love and sometimes you gotta be a little more tough and.

Yeah.

Yeah. Mix of both. But that's how you get them to, to realize these things and to make the changes that ultimately, you know, the goal is to just help people live happy, healthy lives with a happy gut.

Yeah.

You know, and feel physically well, mentally well balanced. And sometimes that takes, like taking them by the shoulders and shaking them and being like, you know, what are you doing? Yes, stop doing that.

Yes, exactly. And I love to empower my patients with just shifts in their language. You know, instead of saying, I can't have gluten, I choose not to have gluten. I don't want gluten. It feels so much more empowering as opposed to feeling deprived and frustrated. When I made that shift for myself, I was like, yeah, I can have that cake, but I want to feel good. I don't want to feel like crap for the next week. I choose not to.

That is the key is the choice. And, and, and flipping it from the negative to the positive. And, and I talk about that in my book in from the the Angle of Intuitive Eating, like understanding how. How do you feel before you eat? And, and, and the way I eat sometimes is I ask myself the question, how do I want to feel after this meal? Do I need to be sharp and awake and not, you know, tired? So I'm not going to have pasta for lunch if I've got a ton of work to do for the rest of the afternoon. You know, pasta, maybe gluten free pasta would be something that I splurge on in the evening when I'm like, more relaxed. I don't have a lot of things to do, so. But becoming really intuitive about what is your body asking for? How does your body feel while you're eating the food? And then after the meal asking yourself, you know, how is this sitting? Like, do I feel okay? You know, because a lot of people are not embodied. They're not living in their bodies.

No, they're not. They're totally disconnected and they're disconnected.

Right.

You're not real. You're not putting the fact together that you feel like crap and you're on the couch for the next three hours with what you just.

Because you just had Cheetos and Doritos and you, you know, you had or.

Chicken Alfredo pasta or something, whatever it is. Yeah, yeah, that was cereal for me. Like, it was so clear to me. One day I ate two bowls of Golden Grams and I was on the couch for like three hours. And at some point I thought, why am I so depressed? What in the heck is wrong with me? And that was my wake up call. I mean, I knew gluten and, you know, dairy made me inflamed, they hurt my knees, they make my back flare up to the point where I can't function. But that was the day I realized that it affects my mood and makes me depressed as all get out. And I, you know, swore it off that day because before I was like, oh, I can deal with the pain, I can push through that, whatever. But the fact that I can't function because I'm depressed is AF on the couch. Like, that was a game changer for me.

That's, that's that. That makes me think of, you know, something that I tell my patients and even my son at times. You know, when, when will you finally change your behavior? When it hurts enough?

Yep.

That's when you change your behavior, when it really counts, where it gets you in a place where you're not willing to Allow that. And sometimes it takes, you know, it's a journey and sometimes it takes a bunch of slip ups to realize, wait a second. Every time I do this, I end up back in the same place and I end up feeling the same way and I don't like how I feel. So do I want to keep doing this? Do I want to be insane? Right. Essentially, do I want to change something about my behavior? But you know, sometimes, sometimes people's guts get hijacked and if you've got yeast overgrowth, that yeast is going to produce all sorts of signaling molecules and mycotoxins that go to your brain and they're going to tell your brain that you need to eat sugar when you don't need sugar. And. But the interesting thing, when I've worked with patients with yeast overgrowth, they'll tell me they have sugar cravings, but there's a part of them that realizes this is illogical.

Yeah.

Like I'm not wanting sugar because I really want sugar. It's like something feels like I'm hijacked. Then sometimes they even use that word like hijacked. And I'm like, yes, you're hijacked because your gut is hijacked and they've taken control of your brain because of this gut brain connection. And now you can't stop eating sugar. But it's not your fault. It's partly what's going on in your gut. And of course it's a feed forward cycle because the more sugar you eat, the more you imbalance your gut microbiome and you promote yeast overgrowth. So it becomes this cycle, this vicious cycle that seems like you can't get out of it, but it's actually quite easy to get out of.

Yeah. And it's life changing. I, I felt like donuts and sugar and candy used to talk to me. You know, I would be at the office and the break room would just like pull me to it or the nurse's station with all the baked goods and, you know, the, the family size M&M's bags and, and I knew that it wasn't me, but I couldn't understand that it was my gut at that time. And now it's so clear and obvious. I talk a little bit about how that drives our mood and affects how we're feeling.

They're finding so many interconnections right now. So there was actually a review study that was published in December on the connection between gut bacteria and depression and finding that there are certain interconnections between the presence of Certain bacteria, and they're funny because they sound like Disney villains like Eggothella and Hungatella. Hungatella produces a metabolite called trimethylamine TMA that can get converted to TMAO by the liver. When it goes to the brain, it causes depression. And it turns out. So they found in this big study, it was about a thousand people done in Amsterdam in the Netherlands, and they were looking at their gut microbiomes and seeing what are the interconnections, you know, between mood scores and their gut bacteria. And they found that, you know, some were high, some were low, and the ones that were low were associated if they were increased, like Rumaminococcus. Um, some strains of ruminococcus actually are anti inflammatory and the ones that were high tend to create inflammation. But the really interesting thing was that the commonality was a drop in the production of different postbiotic products, some of which are own neurotransmitters. So gaba, glutamate, butyrate, serotonin. So the gut bacteria producing these things. Now you might be wondering like, does this stuff get into the brain? Actually it can't cross the blood brain barrier, but it interacts with the brain through the vagus nerve in the gut. The other thing that I think is important to realize with this is that it was clear from this study that there's a shift towards a more informal inflammatory microbiome in people with depression, with anxiety, and when mood disorders improve or when stress improves, there is a shift downward, so there's less inflammation in the body. And I kind of touch upon this in my book, not just from the mental health perspective, but from the perspective of what is the best diet for your gut that's going to put you in, in the best place possible for healing your body at all levels. Gut, brain, gut skin, all that. You know, because we hear like fiber, fiber, fiber, like eat a lot of fiber, like fiber is the cure all. And yet there was a study done by Stanford University. It was a small study but really interesting study done with a group of 36 people. Most of them were women. About 73% were women. And they had them eat a high fiber diet. They split the group into two. One group was high fiber diet, the other group was high fermented foods diet. Now had they done, they could have probably done the study a little bit better. They probably should have had a third group which would have been the control group where they're not changing their diet. So they definitely need to redo the study. But what was really interesting Is, you know, as functional medicine trained practitioners, we're taught eat the rainbow. And what is the rainbow? The rainbow is fiber. Right. And so they looked at a bunch of different measures and looked at like gut microbial diversity. They looked at immune activation, immune modulation. And I was reading it and thinking okay, who's going to increase diversity more? You know, I'm like, is it the fiber rich group or the fermented foods group? And I was honestly convinced that it was going to be the fiber rich group that was going to improve diversity. But it wasn't.

Yeah, that's so cool.

It was the fermented foods group that improved microbial diversity and it also lowered 19 inflammatory markers including like cytokine release and cell mediated cytokine activation. So they looked at a lot of different ways that the immune system behaves, both the innate immune system and, and the more the memory based T cell, B cell part of the immune system. And I was really surprised. So then you wonder, you know, is it because the fermented foods have probiotic bacteria? Are they, is that what's making it more diverse? But it's only going to have a few, like, I mean there's 500 to 600, you know, 500 to a thousand species of bacteria inside our large intestine. So how is one small group? Well, it seems like over time. So they did this study over 10 weeks, a four week ramp up and then six weeks where they were eating up to six servings of ferments per day. Wow. The two biggest ones were yogurt and vegetable brine drinks. So I guess there, it makes sense that you could easily get like a cup serving of drinking like a, a vegetable brine. Super easy to make. And so they were, they weren't having like this incredibly color rainbow diverse diet. Right. You're eating a lot of fermented foods like the fiber rich group. And interestingly on the fiber side what they noted was that depending on, they actually divided that group because they realized that there were three different groups of microbial divers. So then when, when they analyzed and looked at the fiber group and looked at, okay, what happened to the people who took fiber and had the lowest diversity versus the people who took fiber and had the highest microbial diversity? Well, the people with the highest microbial diversity, the fiber regulated the immune response the best and actually tended more towards an increase in T reg cells whereas the lower diversity group on a high fiber diet still had more inflammation. Now there's a lot of things we could think about this. Like is 10 weeks really enough. You know, maybe we didn't give fiber long enough of a chance. Or is it clear that it's just fermented foods and everybody should be eating like five to six servings of ferments per day? It definitely, the effects of the ferments dropped as they came back down. But everybody who was in the fermented foods group was only eating about a half a cup of fermented foods per day before the study started. So it was a really big increase. But my conclusion is that you need both because you want immune modulation and you also want to promote microbial diversity. And why? Because microbial diversity in study after study is being shown to be kind of like I, I call it the holy grail, because diversity in the gut microbiome reduces inflammation and then basically slows down the onset of all, every chronic degenerative disease on the planet.

Yeah.

And it just seems like everything is pointing towards diversity being the key and we need to support that diversity. And when you add fiber. So there was another study that came out in October of last year where they looked at what if we put a fiber diet, fiber rich diet, with a fermented foods diet. So they had people eat five to eight servings of fiber per day with two to three servings. So the servings for the ferments were less than the other study, 2 to 3 servings. So 2 to 3 cups, which is still, you know, like if you're having three cups of yogurt in a day, that's, that's a good amount. But I think, I think they make it up with like kombucha and other, you know, like, it's easier to get a serving size that way. And this study had a control group and it was only a four week study, so it was quite short. But they were looking at people's stress scores and these were just healthy people. So you could say, well, what if we do this study with people who are really like, have high anxiety, you know, and they should definitely repeat it with people like that. But they started with a healthy group. They recruited 45 people. It was during the pandemic, so it was hard recruiting people. And then divided them into two groups. And the fiber and fermented foods group had a significant drop in their stress scores, whereas the control group didn't. And that says something that says super important. Oh my gosh, that says something.

Modulate our immune and stress response through our gut.

Yes.

Yeah.

And there's so many things that, you know, this is why, like, I, I, I say that I Became the an accidental gut health expert. Because when I went on my own gut healing journey, I just became so curious and fascinated with it that when patients would come in and have migraines and ibs, or have allergies and ibs, I just started getting really curious and thinking, well, what are the underlying issues here? Is there a parasite? Is there food sensitivity? Are they lactose intolerant? And it was like it took a world that just felt like. I went from a 2D black and white world of, of conventional medicine where you give people an antidepressant for their IBS or like an antispasmodic. And I went into this full on wizard of Oz colored world with all these tools that suddenly you're like, wait a second. All this stuff that I thought was the same constipation, diarrhea, bloating, abdominal pain, stomach pain, all these things that we thought were just under one big umbrella, they actually can be caused by a lot of different underlying clients causes.

Yeah, yeah. And it suddenly fix them. That's the amazing thing.

And the thing is, if you can uncover the underlying root cause, then you can fix the issue. And it can be so targeted as finding that someone has a parasite that is increasing intestinal permeability, that is leading to inflammation and it's causing their joints to get swollen and you take out the parasite, you treat the parasite and suddenly their joint pain disappears.

Yeah.

And who would have ever thought that your joints are connected to your gut? But so many things, you know, skin, face, hair, everything is connected without a doubt. I see the tree behind you and it reminds me of that analogy of the, the root system of the tree. And I like to say that the gut is like the roots of our body. And when a tree is sick, you treat the roots. You don't treat the leaves, you go to the roots and you look at, well, why are the root, why is the tree sick? Is it needs some minerals, is it not getting enough nitrogen in the soil? Like what is it that needs to be fixed? And then the tree gets healthy. And the same thing, we have to think of our bodies as this, this beautiful tree that has this incredible root system that we can't see. It's inside. It's like a hidden world. But that world basically determines the health of the rest of our bodies.

Oh, that's a beautiful analogy. I love that so much. And you are right on. If you don't do any other testing, like you gotta look at the gut, you know, I think it always starts there. So we could go so Many different ways with this. You're just a wealth of knowledge. I would love for you to talk a little bit on fermented foods because sometimes people are like, I can't handle that. And I would love for you to explain what's going on because I know people are going to run out and have six servings of fermented food tomorrow.

Well, first of all, for everybody listening, you got to remember, so in this study where they had people increase their intake of fermented foods to six servings per day, they had a four week ramp up. So you don't go from zero or just a little bit of ferments to suddenly having this much. You're going to feel sick.

Yes.

You're going to get really bloated. And in fact, the people in the fermented foods group did feel bloated at the beginning of the, of the study, but by the end they actually felt just fine. So their body adapted to it. But this is the thing, and this is why I wanted to personalize my book with a quiz. I created a quiz I call the Gut Smart Quiz. And it basically divides people into mild, moderate or severe gut dysfunction. And part of the reason is that there are certain people who are not ready to start having ferments. You're probably hearing this and thinking like, oh my God, fermented foods, they're great, I should have them. But yeah, fermented foods increase histamine. And if you have histamine intolerance because you have severe underlying gut issues and leaky gut, you're going to feel horrible if you have a ferment. So if you take the Gut Smart quiz and you fall in the severe category, you can't have fermented foods yet. We've got to do some gut healing. And then once you get into the moderate category, you don't jump into the frickin pool. Your whole body. No, you dip your toe in. So you start with a quarter teaspoon and you slowly increase your dose of ferments, Testing and making sure that it's, that's okay for your body or do you need to do a little more gut healing? And I guide people through that because it's important to understand. Yeah, there are these general recommendations, like resistant starch is really good for you. Well, if you go out and you start having a bunch of resistant starch, you're going to be so bloated, you're going to be in really major discomfort. Yeah. So you know, and that's the problem sometimes with taking all this health Advice and hearing like, oh, ferments are good, fiber is good. Like, oh, let me just go out. And you know, Americans are like, well, let's just have a lot of it. And then you get sick and then you stop eating it because you think, well, it made me sick. No, it's just you've got to ramp it up. But you also have to know what your gut type is. And that was a thing I realized taking care of gut patients for the last 10 years is that no two guts are the same. So how can we prescribe a one size fits all diet for every person's gut? We can't. And that's why I wanted to create a personalized program that basically helps you figure out what is right for you and what isn't right for you. With a lot of guidelines on kind of general things. Like, for example, if you're healing your gut, alcohol is bad. It doesn't matter what gut type you are. Alcohol messes with your gut microbiome. It increases leaky gut. It's going to make you inflamed. It actually triggers the release of all sorts of interleukin cytokines that increase inflammation in the body. So if you're healing your gut, you. You've got to take alcohol out maybe once you get to the mild, because I know my people, they want to have something. So I did include what you can have once you get to the mild category, but in limited quantities. Because if you want to heal your gut, there are certain things that are just going to be irritating. Like gluten also. Yeah. Gluten increases intestinal permeability across the board, regardless if you're normal, regardless if you're gluten sensitive or if you have celiac disease. Different degrees for each. Celiac is going to have the highest increase in permeability. But even someone who's normal, and I thought this was, this is another study I was reading and thinking, okay, the normals are going to have no reaction. I'm sure they're not going to have any increase in intestinal permeability. But the thing is, the mechanism is there. Gluten triggers the release of zonulin. Zonulin increases intestinal permeability. And there's a lot of things that we've had to redefine in medicine. Right. Because when I went to medical school 20 plus years ago. Yeah, when I went to medical school, we were taught that celiac disease is a diagnosis of pediatrics. Like that you find it in children and you diagnose it within the first few years of life and it's severe.

Like these children are sick.

Yeah. And, and, and that would still be true if you have, if you are born and you're already celiac from the minute you're born, it's going to be quite severe. But I had my oldest new onset or newly diagnosed celiac. A woman 52 years old had Hashimoto's was coming in to see me, she felt sick. The doctors couldn't figure out what was going on. She had been to gastroenterologist and you know, because of autoimmune disease, because of the connection between celiac, especially with thyroid disorders. I asked her, you know, and I think her ancestry is from Scotland and there's a lot of HLA DQ2, DQ8 in, in northern United Kingdom and Ireland. So you know, I asked her have you ever been tested for celiac? So like no, no one ever brought that up. Now she's a 52 year old woman and I'm thinking, okay, this is that I'm learning functional medicine and I'm like, I know I learned in medical school that celiac is something that you diagnose in early years but you know, maybe it's possible that it's a multi hit hypothesis and maybe you don't start with celiac, but somewhere along the line you've exposed yourself to too much gluten and then celiac disease of all come, you know, manifests itself, becomes your phenotype. And so I tested her and she was positive for the markers and she, she was positive for I want to say tissue transglutaminase antibodies. We sent her for an endoscopy and she had celiac disease. Yeah. And no one had figured it out. And here 52 year old woman, no one had figure out, figured out what was going on. And just by doing some simple testing, I fixed her gut, helped her feel better, gave her an energy boost. I think we need to redefine, you know, how disease can happen in the body and the disease can actually be expressed over time. And if you're eating a lot of, if you're listening to this and you're thinking, well I don't have celiac disease, I, I don't think I have a gluten sensitivity. But you're eating bread and croissants every day, maybe just think about reducing your exposure, you know, just a bit like don't, don't expose yourself, expose your body to whole foods that have not been processed.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I am seeing the opposite side where people are getting colonoscopies and EGTs at a younger and younger age, and they're getting told, oh, yeah, looks like you may have celiac or Crohn's or things like that, but there's not much we can do with it. Good luck. Or eosinophilic esophagitis and esophageal strictures. And I'm literally, these people, I'm putting them into remission just by shifting their diet, you know, and their only other option was these drugs that are going to suppress their immune system and lead to, you know, other conditions and cancers and things. And it's like, wake up. I mean, it's. Yeah, it's crazy.

And it's really like, bring. Brings us back to the diversity conversation, because in 2020, before the world shut down, I went to Africa and I. I got to stay with the Hadza, the hunter gatherers that have been living in the same traditional way that their ancestors lived for over a thousand years. And the reason I wanted to go and. And I was so, like, jumping up and down with joy when I found out that I. I was one of the 10 people selected to go on this trip was because they had done microbiome analysis on the hot sauce. So someone who had befriended them got some of their poop and started testing it. And guess what? They haven't been exposed to antibiotics. And they have an incredibly diverse gut microbiome. They're exposed to the natural world, so they're not, they're not over sanitizing. They don't use any hand wash or anything. And, but more importantly, there's no obesity, there's no diabetes, there's no heart disease, there's no dementia. There's none of the diseases. There's no cancer, there's no, none of the diseases of the Western world.

Yeah, did you guys hear that, like, listen to that sentence again? Just say it again, Dr. Pedro. Because it's so important.

These hunter gatherers. And I'm not saying, okay, go out there and start like, you know, Fred Flintstone and, and Wilma and like, go live out in the wild, unless that's your thing. But there's a lesson that we can learn from them because they have incredibly diverse gut microbiome. They don't over sanitize, which is probably part of the reason that their gut microbiome is so diverse.

Yeah.

And they're also not taking antibiotics. They just. And. And I sat with the chief and through a translator, asked him, you know what happens if you get a pneumonia and they're like, they have these, these herbal remedies that have been handed down from generation to generation. And they have their medicine person who handles that, but they don't take any, any other, like western drugs. Yeah. And as a result, they have no cancer, no diabetes, no obesity, no heart disease, you know, so I think that's the fascination is why, you know, why do they not have it? And they're living out in the wild. They're living in the most adverse conditions possible. Semi arid environment, you know, they're, they're exposed to the elements, they're not wearing a lot of clothes. Like, how, how is it that they don't have any of these diseases? And you, you asked me about depression at the beginning. So we asked them about, you know, is there a word for depression, for sadness? They're like, we don't understand. They don't, this doesn't, that word does not exist in their language.

That just gives me.

It doesn't even, it doesn't even compute for them. Like, they don't, they don't even. And the three days that I spent with them, one thing that I learned is that humans can communicate even if you don't speak the same language, through expressions, facial expression, laughter, signs making sounds. One night around the fire pit, the chief told a story and he was calling out the names of different animals in the safari, but he would act out what the animal was. And so we started learning the names of the different animals through him. Acting out. So you can still connect with people even if you don't speak the same language. And I think there's a lot of lessons to learn here, even if it's just like, try to keep antibiotics away from your children unless they're absolutely necessary. Let your kids play out in the dirt, let them go outside and get dirty and get in the grass. And, you know, because that's really good for their microbiome and you should do it too.

Yeah.

And if you have an organic garden, if you can have a garden with organic soil and get your hands dirty, make your own vegetables. I mean, that's the best thing you could do. Because parents who have an organic garden and teach their kids about gardening, the kids will eat more vegetables than kids that were not taught about this.

That's such an important point. I love that. And I know I don't have a lot of time left, but I love your coffee filter analogy about leaky gut. And I just want people to understand, like, why is it that, you know, we Westerners have so many chronic conditions and it, it all does stem from, you know, the gut dysbiosis and the leaky gut. And you make it so simple, understand that maybe it will trigger someone to say, you know what, maybe I will try four weeks without gluten or four weeks without dairy, or both and just see what happens. Like four weeks.

Or do the, or do the 14 day gut smart protocol. Just 14 days?

Yes.

And then, you know, take the quiz before, take the quiz after, see where you're at and see what else you need to do. So maybe you do it again for another 14 days, but now you have a marker as to where you start and you can get a score and you can see how, how much you improve. So you can also celebrate the little wins along the way.

Yeah.

So do you want me to, do you want me to explain the coffee filter analogy?

Yes, I do.

So, all right, so imagine now this is like an artisanal coffee shop. Pour over coffee. So imagine a nice coffee filter sitting with all the coffee grounds. The coffee filter is an analogy for your gut. The coffee grounds are the food and the bacteria, everything that's inside your gut. And you pour the hot water over and you don't want any of those coffee grounds to get inside your cup. You just want nice brown, aromatic coffee infused water. Right.

Yummy.

And that's the equivalent of filtering everything through the gut lining when it's healthy and getting all the nutrients and all the fatty acids, all the proteins that are so important for maintaining our health. Now I'm going to take that same coffee filter and I'm going to take a needle and I'm just going to poke a bunch of holes in that coffee filter before I use it. And then I'm going to put it in the cup, I'm going to put it in the filter and add the coffee grounds inside, then pour over. Well, what's going to happen? What happens if those holes are really big? You're going to get coffee grounds in your coffee, right?

Yeah. And you ruin the whole cup of coffee.

It ruins the cup of coffee? Well, leaky gut ruins your body because it allows bacteria, bacterial DNA, even yeast to get through that gut barrier. They get to the other part, which is the lamina propria, which is kind of like this neutral zone that's patrolled by all our border patrols, which are white blood cells. And it triggers a huge inflammatory response that has different degrees that then has ramifications all over your body. So when your gut is leaky, it's letting through all of these inflammatory substances that should have been kept on the other side. And this is why we want to reverse it and this is why it's so big. Because leaky gut is connected to things like your energy, your metabolism. So if you want to lose weight and you've been trying to lose weight and you get to a point where your body just won't. It's like you're fighting with it. You're at £159 and it just won't get below that 159. And you're wondering what is going on. I'm doing everything right. I'm running an hour on the treadmill every day. I'm, I'm having like a green juice for lunch and then I'm eating a small salad for dinner. Why? You know, other than you might not be getting your, the right amount of protein macros so you're kind of, you're tanking your metabolism. But the other place you've got to look is your gut. Maybe you've got dysbiosis, maybe you have leaky gut and that's causing your body to resist letting go of weight because the body's not going to want to let go of that weight if it doesn't feel safe. And the body does not feel safe when your gut is leaky, it feels like it's under attack. You've got to get your body back into safe mode. And part of that. I know we're getting to the end here, but I, I just wanted to tie it in briefly to the gut brain connection because it's so important to activate that vagus nerve, which is like that telephone wire, that superhighway connecting the brain and the gut, communicating in both directions, but actually sending more signals up to the brain, like 80% more to the brain than back down to the gut. And when your body is in this safe zone, it can relax, it can digest, it can assimilate nutrients and it can heal itself. It improves gut permeability. When your body doesn't feel safe, you're going to have increased leaky gut. So we have to, it's not just about, I guess before we end, I wanted to just leave people with this message to understand it's not about, just about doing the right diet and rebalancing your gut microbiome. It's also about that gut brain connection and making sure that you're also doing things to help de stress yourself. And like I explained earlier, like eating a diet with well balanced fiber and ferments, if you can have fermented foods, is going to Lower your stress levels. But I also think it's very important for people to work on the brain, gut connection and do things like breath work, meditation, relaxing things, yoga, tai chi, things that are going to calm the nervous system because that's also going to help you heal because you can out diet or out supplement a stressed out lifestyle.

Yeah, amen.

You've got to, you've got to deal with that as well. So it's not just about. In my book, I talk about it because I know the entry point for everyone is like, okay, what do I eat? What is the diet? But I also want to teach people. It's just as much about what you're processing here, what your mindset is, how you feel, your internal state of nervous activation. And when you neglect that, you're basically putting a barrier up to your ultimate healing.

Yeah, I see that all the time. The women that don't make a shift with the gut healing regimens we do and all of that are the ones that are not doing the stress management. They're not building those tools and using them on a regular basis.

And I, and I want to shout for those women because they are super moms, like taking their kids to, you know, basketball, soccer, practice, they're running here and there, they're getting food on the table for dinner, and they're basically like these major project managers that are managing everyone except themselves. And usually you fall your last on the list. And the thing is, you know, if the plane is coming down, put your oxygen mask first, then help the others. And same way there's a point where if you're not taking care of yourself, the entire ship is going to sink. Yeah, exactly. So it's all about like realizing that you taking care of yourself is not you taking less care of everybody else. It's actually you taking more care of everybody else by taking care of yourself. Carving out that time for you where you do the things that fuel your soul, that make you feel whole, then you can be whole in all the other aspects of your life rather than feeling like you're basically treading water and trying to like catch your last gasp of air before you drown.

Yeah. My mom said one of the greatest things to me just in the past couple years. She said that she takes care of herself and eats well and exercises so that she won't be a burden to me later on when she's older. And I thought that is the greatest gift that a mother can give a daughter. You know, how selfless by being selfish and taking care of herself. I thought that was so cool. And I wish that we could just shift the way that we think as women and realize that yes, we have to put ourselves first. That is the only way to serve others.

It's not selfish, it's self full.

Yeah.

And when you fill your cup, then you can be all of who you are to everybody else. Yeah. You know, I've, I've taken care of so many women who put themselves last and, and they're struggling, you know, they're, they're struggling mentally, they're struggling sometimes their marriage is struggling because everything is imbalanced. Yeah. And when, when we feel imbalanced, when our gut is imbalanced, when our life is imbalanced, we're, you know, you can make it work for a certain period of time and at some point everything's just going to come crashing down.

Yeah, exactly. So I love that you are giving this free gift. People can go and take this quiz. Tell me exactly what's going to happen when they go to your website.

Yeah. If they go to gutsmart protocol, gutsmart protocol.com forward/gift, they'll be able to download a free chapter from my book that kind of gives them an overview. So if you're listening to this and thinking this is really interesting, this is super fascinating. Is this for me? Well, the chapter that I, that I'm gifting actually explains what the entire book is about and can really help you decide like should you pre order this book or not. I also included Dr. David PerlMotors forward with the free chapter. A little bit more about my gut healing story. I think because it's important, I feel like to, to see that and to relate to the fact that, you know, even if you've lived with this for 20 plus years or your whole life doesn't mean that it can't be healed. Yes, there's still hope. And so they can, they can download that. And then if they feel inspired, they can go to gutsmart protocol.com and pre order the book and get five bonuses including the quiz so they don't have to wait until the book comes out. They could actually take the quiz already and start to figure out where do you stand? Are you mild, moderate or severe? And you can have an idea of what is it that you're going to have to work on.

Oh, I love that. That's so good. So we can just get working on it right now. That is so helpful for women because they're always wondering, do I just need a probiotic? Do I need more fiber? Do I need this? Do I need that. And you're just laying it out for them like here, here is where you start based on your results. So thank you. That's awesome.

And I created one of the most extensive shopping lists I think that I've ever seen, divided into mild, moderate, or severe. And. And knowing that if you're in severe, you've got the most restrictive diet. If you're in moderate, you can eat what's in the moderate and severe categories, and mild can eat across. So mild has the greatest freedom, even though there might be some restrictions on portions and stuff. But yeah, I mean, people can start to know where they're at. And if you listen to this podcast, you know, if you fall in the severe, you should avoid fermented foods for now and we can bring them in later, but we've got to do some gut healing first before we get you there.

Yeah, I think that's the key. Women freak out when they hear they have to restrict all these foods. But the important point is it's temporary. We need to heal your gut. It's temporary and confused. It's overreactive. Right.

And I love what you said about reframing that I don't eat gluten. No, I choose not to eat gluten.

Right.

Not that you, you know, or I eat. You know. I'll just end with this quick story. I. I was out to dinner with. I was visiting my sister. It took my sister over five years to realize that I was gluten free. Actually, I think it took her longer than that. It. It took my sister having one of her sons develop hives as a result from gluten and have to go gluten free to then realize that her brother has issues with gluten and can eat gluten. Because she used to, like, I would go visit and she would get me a croissant. Like, I can't eat that. It has gluten. And she would want to give me toast or. And I'm like, no, I can't have that because that gluten. So we went to an Italian restaurant and I'm like, great, what am I going to eat? And I'm also not always, you know, I'm very picky about my gluten free pastas. So I don't like any corn based pastas. And a lot of times when you go to a restaurant, it's going to be a corn based, gluten free or. So I had a salad with protein, you know, very satisfying. And, and I don't know if it was during Dinner or after dinner? She said, I have food issues. And I was like, wow. Like, no, I don't have food issues. I eat a lot of the foods that I know are good for me, and I avoid the foods that are bad for me. And I think that's important for people to hear because a lot of people that, you know, I've told to go gluten free when they're in public, when they're with family, when they're with friends, they feel embarrassed to be that person. I'm that one at the restaurant. Like, does this have gluten? Does this have dairy? You know, and, and. And I, I mean, you could even go further. Like, is there canola oil in this? Like, how did you cook it? Did you. You make it with. You make it with olive oil instead of canola oil. But, you know, I think it takes a lot of self love and self acceptance to be able to stand in front of your friends, family, and whoever it is and just say, yeah, I'm gluten free. And it's. I choose this because I love my body and I don't want to take. Do something that will poison it.

Yeah. I literally had this conversation with a patient last week because she didn't want her friends to know. And so she went along with what they were having for dinner and she paid for it for the next couple days. And I thought, how can we just help you reframe this to feel empowered? And I said to her, they might be struggling with issues too. They might feel really excited to hear that you potentially have a solution for them and it's working for you. So why not share your story and speak up? Because you might be helping someone that is also suffering in silence, you know, So I just think, don't be embarrassed or afraid because a lot of us are suffering and we're just not talking about it. And sharing our story is so powerful. Right?

Yeah. And. And I want to add, like, I've told this story about my sister. Other times. I'm not mad at my sister. I, I look at these things as opportunities to educate people who are lacking the knowledge or understanding of that. Not everyone is like you. And, you know, everybody's an individual and you've gotta. You've gotta eat right for your gut type.

Yeah, exactly. Oh, my gosh. You're gonna have to come back because we didn't even talk about, like, we.

Get, we gotta get into hormones. We didn't even get into hormones and, and estrogen balance and, and all that with the guts. So, yeah, I'd love to come back because I mean, this, this flu, like, where did the hour go?

I know. Well, I would also love to go dancing with you and do a lot of other stuff with you. So you're fabulous. We will definitely have to have you back on and cover all the other issues. But I hope everybody got some value out of this. I know they did. They're gonna go, they're gonna download your chapter, do the gut quiz. Links are in the show notes. Thank you for being so amazing and sharing your stories and just helping countless women.

Thanks for having me on and being able to share this information. Okay.

I know you got so much good information out of that one. And, and this is an episode that you can share with all the men in your life, right? Gut health is universal and so much of this stuff affects men as well. That is actually how he healed himself. So share this with all the men in your life. Go out, get the book, do the quiz, figure out what the heck is going on with you so you don't have to suffer anymore. Okay. And if you do want some one on one help with this. If you want to do stool testing and actually get the data, you want to see what is living in your gut, what is running the show. Do you have active leaky gut? What needs, you know, to be repaired, replaced, replenished, killed off? You can work with us at Dr. Tabitha. We do all of that. That, and like I said, if you live in New York, Rhode island or New Jersey, get in touch with Dr. Pedre. But if you are interested in the Healthy her program, I can't say enough about it. Women are having transformations. They're finally getting their health back. We're reversing autoimmune conditions. We're finally getting over chronic problem problems that conventional medicine has written off and said you're just going to have to live with it. Sorry about your luck. And I just don't believe that's true. I, you know, studying functional medicine, seeing all these transformations my patients go through, all my colleagues patients go through. I don't believe that you can't get well. I believe God created our bodies to heal and to thrive until the day we transitioned. So we are here for you if you want to work with us. Go to the website, go to Dr. Tabitha.com and fill out the form for a discovery call. My team will answer all your questions. You'll get taken care of, I promise. We got you covered. It's so good. So go have an amazing week. I'm here if you, you know. Want to give me a new topic to talk about? I appreciate all the topics that keep coming in. I'm trying to get through them all, so thanks, ladies. Make it a good one.