#143: Obsessed featuring Zach Pogrob

What's going on, guys? Welcome back to another episode of the Meat Mafia podcast. Before we dive into this episode, I want to give you guys a quick offer from our supplement company, Noble Origins. This is the highest quality beef protein product out there. It has collagen, colostrum, and an organ complex in it, as well as beef protein isolate, which we think is the highest quality form of protein supplementation there is. So if you guys are interested in checking out our product, we have chocolate and vanilla flavors, and you can go check that out@nobleorigins.com and use code meat mafia to get 15% off. Thank you guys for your support, and I hope you enjoy the episode.

Bang. We're rolling.

Zach, welcome to Austin, man. How's Austin treating you?

It's amazing, man. It's amazing. I feel right at home with the Mafia. Got off the flight, met you guys at Squatch Fitness, Squatch Frontier Fitness, and our buddy Noah put us through a good workout, and that's, you know, that's how I think of Austin. It's like you get here, and the vibes are immediate.

Yeah, we kind of sandwiched it right. We got you right in the front end of the trip. Literally, like, as you got off the plane, we hit that workout, and then you're heading out tomorrow.

Right.

So we got you right at the back end too, correct?

Yep.

Yeah, man. This is just. This is, I think, a long time coming for us. I mean, we've been going back and forth. You guys met prior to us, but this is one of those cool friendships where we had connected on social media, and I was just independently following your Instagram, your Twitter, and I think we were saying this a little bit on our run at Squatch. How you can you follow someone online and you learn about the way that they think and you feel like you actually know them.

So even though we were only meeting.

For the first time at Squatch, I was like, I feel like I know so much about your mindset on obsession. I've been watching you build the brand the last year. It's just a really cool thing just to see that whole convergence.

Yeah, it's amazing. That's what we were saying. It's especially when your content is focused. You know what I mean? You guys are very focused on sovereign Sovereign lifestyle Carnivore diet. And I'm trying to focus on obsession. And you meet someone and they instantly want to talk to you about that. They instantly know what you care about. That's just the beautiful part about content. You get to live inside thousands of People's minds. It's amazing.

Yeah, and it's cool too, because I feel like your content specifically resonates with a lot of people. Ours is niche and yours is niche too. But I feel like there is something to your content where people see it and are pretty inspired by the ideas that your page has.

It's really cool. It's really cool. Especially because even you can trigger something in people that they don't get often. Like the obsession. Like you don't hear that from most people. A lot of people, they're going through their day to day lives. They're going to their job, they're in school and they're just like, that's like their path. They're on the script, they're playing out. Obsession is like tearing apart the script and writing something completely new. Staying up super late, waking up super early, you know, giving everything you have, pushing extreme hours, and they don't hear that enough. So you could be that, that voice for somebody, you know, when they meet you. And when I meet them in person or just someone online, it's. That's like a special type of connection, you know?

Do you feel like obsession kind of gets a bad rap?

Yeah, 100%. Well, yeah. It's like a gift and a curse.

Right.

And that's why, like, that's why I love that I just somehow stumble upon it, caring about it a lot because it's so. It's pretty, just divisive.

Yeah.

There are some people who like see it and they're like, oh, this is not for me. And there, there are other people who like it. That's why it's cool. Like I've had it in my bio, it's the first thing in my bio for like over a year now, maybe two years. And it's cool that all the recent followers I've gotten, they saw that when they followed. So, you know, there are plenty of people who probably clicked on my page, they saw follow obsession and they're like, that's kind of weird. I don't want to do that. And they didn't follow, but that's okay because they're not the right person.

When did you start really percolating on this concept of obsession and then deciding that you wanted to start putting content out in relationship to that. That field?

Yeah, it was just. I wrote a post, like I've written post almost every single day, averaging over once a day on Instagram and I had one post. It was never apologize for being Obsessed. I think the next part was stay up all night Read a book. The entire day might have been like, do a marathon without training. I forgot exactly what it was.

How long ago was that?

This was like, probably two years ago, maybe a year and a half ago. And did super well. Not, like insanely well, but, like, one of my best posts. Tom Bilyeu. You guys know Tom Bilyeu? Yes.

He's amazing.

He's huge. Yeah. And he. He, like, I don't think he gave me credit at first, but then he did. He wrote it does, like these whiteboard quotes.

Yeah.

And so one day I'm just scrolling and I see Tom, like, had his, like, mansion on the beach and he has his whiteboard with my quote on it. I'm like, oh, it's pretty cool. I wish I got credit. But he did give me credit. And I was like, huh? Like, that's a pretty cool concept to attach yourself to. Because I think it's super important to have to be known for something. You know, you have James Clear habits. You have Jocko Willink discipline. I would like Zach Pograb Behavior obsession. Yeah. And, yeah, then I just realized that I enjoyed talking about it. I enjoyed, like, reading about people who are obsessed. And I think, you know, I've only started to, like, become more known for it. And I don't think I'm like, that known for it yet. So I'm not trying to, like, blow this out of proportion, but, like, I wrote this thing once. It's like, if you want to be. If you want to be related to something, talk about it often. You want to be known for something, talk about it daily. But if you want to be the only one known for something, you have to talk about it multiple times a day. And I think that's true. If you look at my content across Twitter and Instagram, I'm almost always saying the word obsess or obsession, like, multiple times a day. And I think it's important.

Yeah. The act of being obsessed with something, I feel like is a pretty much shared trait amongst anyone who's had a large amount of success. And it's weird that it kind of does get this. You know, you get both sides of the sword with it where. Whether it's, you know, Michael Jordan who's, you know, performing at the highest level, inspiring people to be amazing athletes, but then at the same time, like, you know, he caught a bad rep for pushing people too hard sometimes. And that's just one example. But I do think it's amazing that that obsession is just a shared trait amongst a lot of these high Performers.

And my favorite people like you guys, fully obsessed, at least from what I can tell.

Do you think a lot of genius gets misconstrued as obsession?

Well, I think true genius almost always is obsession. You need that time alone. Need that time alone, working on something thousands of hours behind the scenes and those. Create those moments of genius. Yeah.

Is there anyone you were thinking of when you asked that?

Yeah, it's a good question. We were talking to your buddy Danny Miranda, who has an amazing podcast, and we were mentioning how he's excited about the fact that he's got Robert Greene coming on his podcast in April, who wrote 48 Laws of Power, Mastery, a bunch of incredible books. And I read Mastery for the first time. I think it was two years ago via audiobook. And it was one of the most impactful books I'd ever read because he. He will give you a principle to focus on, and then he will give you examples of people throughout history that displayed that trait. And I remember he specifically mentioned a chapter on Albert Einstein. And a lot of people don't know that Einstein was almost. I don't want to call him a bottom feeder, but he was kind of like middle of the pack. And he started thinking about this theory of relativity. And what people don't realize is that he literally toiled at that theory for 13 years and finally decided to give up on it. And then he was on a train ride, and I think he had the epiphany and got the answer. And from the day after he discovered the theory of relativity, everyone considered him to be a genius, but they don't understand the 13 years of toiling over this theory. And I just think that that's really interesting. So that was specifically what I was thinking about, was Einstein.

Yeah.

Yeah. There's a quote I like Joe Rogan quote. He says genius and madness are next door neighbors and that they borrow each other's sugar. I don't know if that's the exact quote, but I think it's pretty cool.

That's a great quote.

It's true. Then the challenge is, you know, can you put your obsession in a vehicle that helps the world and becomes known? If you care about that, you could be, you know, like Danny Miranda, our podcaster friend, he loves having conversations. He could have just went on the street and talked to people, but. And he could have. It would technically be the same thing, conversations, but he would never be paid for it or known for it. Instead, he chose podcasting, which is a perfect vehicle for that. It scales infinitely and compounds over time. And, and so the challenge is like, you know, you can be the obsessed, like, artist in your room, the starving artist, just, you know, making beautiful art, or you can, you know, become known for something, make something for other people. So that's where, like, the genius and madness, I think the obsession and the madness kind of, like, go back and forth.

Dude, I love that.

Yeah.

Is there anyone that comes to mind for you that you think about when you hear obsession?

The. The purest example is Arnold. He's my favorite one. Like, he. From a young age, like, there's the book. Best book by him is his older book. It's called Arnold the Education of a Bodybuilder. I try to quote it, like, every few months. It's kind of like, under the radar because he wrote it when he was a lot younger. But in that book, it's just so, like, pure and visceral. And he walks through his obsession with bodybuilding.

He.

I tweeted this the other day. He says, you know, I remember the first time I walked in the gym, the weightlifters looked like Hercules. Their bodies were glistening. You know, the cold, like, shattering of the weights. Like, the way he describes it, it's like someone, like, looking at art. Yeah. And for other people, it's just like guys, you know, lifting weights. And he describes that feeling and he talks more about it, and he just became purely obsessed. And he's not. He's a big one. And then, you know, he. He found a guy named Frank Zane, who was bodybuilder, actor, and that became his hero. A lot of obsessive people have a hero, and he just modeled after him and lived in the gym. He would walk. He lived in a tiny village, would walk hours to the gym, stay there all day, lift all day. And, yeah, he clearly followed that obsession. Another good example. I, like, I've been really obsessed with Pixar because I'm trying to do the animated stuff now. And this guy, John Lasseter, who basically made Pixar, he directed the first three movies, Toy Story 1 and 2. And I think he directed Bug's Life. And he talks about this was a guy who was just obsessed with animation when he was a kid. And he talks about watching cartoons when he was a kid. And he says, yeah, I wanted to crawl through the screen and be a part of those worlds. Interesting the way that's how. That's what obsession is. When someone talks about it like that, where it's like it hits them in another dimension.

Like, literally seeing it differently, seeing it differently.

And that guy was Just went on to obviously reinvent animation and people don't understand what Pixar did. If you, if you just want to study hit making, Pixar had seven years, eight years of hits, back to back to back. You're talking Toy Story, Bug's Life, Cars, Monster University, Incredibles. It's insane. And yeah, so I've been kind of obsessed with them.

Interesting. Yeah, old school Arnold was so based, honestly.

So based.

Yeah, I think that he was like 12 or 13. He was just, he had this vision of what he could become and he was hanging these pictures of these old school bodybuilders in his room and I think people literally thought he was gay because people were like, why are you hanging pictures of bodybuilders in your room? But like, he literally had that concrete vision that he was gonna be world, a world champion bodybuilder from a young age. And we listened to that one podcast.

How to Take over the World. Is that the one you're thinking of?

Yeah, it was like the 10 minute long podcast and the theme of it was just start. And he referenced Arnold. I think they were in their early 20s and it was him and some buddies and they would load up like 225 pound plates on a, on a bar. They would go out into the woods and they would literally squat it until their freaking calves were burning. Like they were doing hundreds and hundreds of reps. And they didn't put any thought into it except like, we're just going to pound it. And I think that they said that after that their muscles were pulsing so much, they put like a quarter of an inch on their quads.

I love that story. I listen to the same one so good.

And they weren't.

I think it was like the whole thing was like, don't start, don't overcomplicate it. They were just bringing weights into the woods. They were, they were bringing a bunch of meat, wine. They would bring like their girlfriends out with them and they would just train and just not overcomplicate it and just thrive off of each other's energy and their obsession. And I remember when we heard that, we heard that we were going up to our buddy's wedding in Monterey and we listened to it in the car and we were just like, this is the mindset right here. Like, just don't overcomplicate it. Just do.

And the shared obsession, I think, is actually a component of that that's unique because when you do get in the room with the right people who are equally as obsessed or, or want to be as obsessed as you are, that's when it gets interesting. That's when, like, real movements happen. Like, we were talking before we even came in here, like, Silicon Valley, like, put your ass where your heart wants to be. Austin's now this, like, booming city for all sorts of different things. We were talking about, you know, all the opportunities that are happening in the city of Austin, and a lot of it is based around obsession. Like, people are coming here because they have a vision. And I think that was, like, the same example that I was going to give about Silicon Valley. People were going to Silicon Valley because tech was booming and people were obsessed with creating that next generation of technology.

Yeah. And it's almost like there's so many creatives. Creators here, creatives in general. And it's. I feel like it's shifting from that now a little bit. Like, people used to want to do tech, and now they want to be. Now they want to do content. Yeah. And it's interesting. Yeah. Being around people that you're obsessed with. There's. There's so many examples. There's just so many. Like, that Arnold example is a good one. Yet friends, partners, all throughout his bodybuilding journey. I'm pretty sure he did Franco. Yeah, Franco. And you have. You know, we were talking about the early vine stars who all took off on Vine. They all basically lived in the same apartment building. Yeah. Literally. Same apartment building. Then there's Mr. Beast. Right. He talks about a lot about how he. He was starting out, had like 10,000 followers subscribers. He was in a group chat, and they would do calls every single day. Mastermind calls. It's like there's commonalities between these people who follow their obsession and do big things.

I forget if it was you or someone else that was saying this about Mr. Beast, but I think a few years ago, he went on someone's podcast and they were asking him these very basic questions about pop culture that pretty much anyone would know. And he couldn't answer the question to the point where the host of the show is like, dude, what's wrong with you? And the whole point is it's like, no, not like he was. He was so obsessed with YouTube that he didn't do anything else but figure out how to optimize his YouTube channel and grow to the level that he is now.

Exactly. Yeah. He is like the number one example of obsession. He was also another trigger for me to start talking about it more, because he would go on podcasts and literally say that word over and over, like, just, hyper obsess. Hyper obsess. He would say that. And I was like.

So he. So he started embedding that into your mind kind of.

Yeah. Like, even more after I'd written that. Posts I talked about. Yeah.

Was there anything in your background before you started posting content that you look back on now and you're like, that's where this, like, idea or, like, feeling of wanting to be obsessed came from.

Yeah, I would. I really like this quote from Naval and Naval says, behind every successful entrepreneur is a former failed self. Great quote. And I feel like I had several failed selves with, you know, first with soccer. I played. Played soccer in college, but didn't really play. Like, I had. I was hurt the whole time, getting surgeries or just not playing good enough. So I was like one failed self. Then after I did that, I was going to try to go to med school and kind of failed there. Did okay. But, like, was just so. It was so not the right path for me, so I kind of failed there. That was another failed self. Those kind of gave me, like, a chip on my shoulder, I think, in terms of, like, proving myself. Like, I. I don't think about this anymore much, but, like, back then I would think about, you know, I did, like, three seasons of college soccer, and most of those were just on the bench watching other people. And so, you know, you guys played sports, right? What. What did you guys play?

Baseball.

Yeah.

And Harry played football.

Baseball and football.

Did you guys have good college careers?

No.

Yeah, my college career was way under garbage.

There were so many people I need who were doing. They either, like, had a bad college career or just were hurt all the time or had a really bad injury. It's amazing. And so. So for me, like, I would go and we'd celebrate and win games, do dog piles and, you know, this could sound selfish, but I would just be, like, miserable. I would just be like, I did not do anything. Right. I am not this. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Yes.

And so that. That drives me, you know, to, like, want to prove myself. And so that, like, I think, led to the obsession when I started Instagram, which was just, I'm going to do this for a decade at least. I think if I do that every day and post every day, things will work out and I'll be happy and be able to do what I want.

I know you mentioned Tom Bilyeu posting your quote early on, and that was a green light. Are there any other green lights that stick out, like, as you've grown to the point where you're at now where you have 835,000 followers and just this insanely explosive growth over the last two years.

What do you mean, green lights?

Just like a moment of affirmation that you're on the right path. So I think for us, we wrote a huge thread that got like 20 million impressions. So I'm like, all right, green light. Hey, we booked this guest. Green light. I'm just curious if there are things that maybe stick out over your journey over the last few years.

Yeah, sure. 100%. Yeah. So starting out the page, I didn't really have much of a voice myself. I just didn't have much to say. So I would do a lot of quotes. I would share Andy Frisella and I would, you know, make a cool quote that I liked from him and a cool design. He would share it. He would message me, like, saying, dude, love your stuff. He would share some of my own writing when I write my. Because he followed me. That was actually a big thing. Yeah, people following me that I really respected, like Jocko followed me. Fangirled so hard.

How cool is that?

Because I made something for him. I made. I made a video. This was around like the Black Lives matter stuff, like June 2020, I think he made a really great video. And I made like a. Not an animation, but just like a clip with it. He liked it, I liked. I guess he liked it and he followed me, which is cool. Those moments are cool because it's like people you really admire and listen to every day, you know, noticing you trying to think. Yeah, I don't really know. Other specific moments. Yeah, I mean, the last few months have been kind of crazy, like how the page has grown. So really cool. People have followed me and reached out to me. So those have been cool.

Let's take a minute to talk about some of the sponsors and brands who support the show.

What are you thinking?

I was thinking about Carnivore Bar. What are your thoughts on Carnivore Bar?

I mean, it's unbelievable. It's an unbelievable product. We were lucky enough to have the founder, Philip Mies on the show a few months ago and he was able to send us a bunch of product when we started the relationship and absolutely loved it. I mean, you know, it's minimum ingredient product, beef tallow, salt, and then they do have a honey flavored option as well. But it's so nice to have a bar that's like three to four ingredients. And like, when you're following a Carnivore diet, it's really Tough to find products that are in line with, with that specific diet, you know?

Yeah. For me it kind of hits like the holy trinity of what you're looking for when you're looking for food. So it's nutrient dense, it's convenient and it tastes great. And as you said, most people who are trying to eat healthy, the convenience factor is kind of a tough part. So just being able to have something you can grab on the go, know that you're going to have that nutrition for the day, it's huge.

Yeah. And we, we were lucky enough we got to actually see their factory too in Missouri and they're just doing things the right way. I love how they offer an option for like carnivore purists where it's just beef, tallow salt. And then they also have an animal based option too. If you do want a little bit of sweetness, a little bit of variety, they have a honey in that option. And they're just people that are doing.

Things the right way.

They're very mission focused. They're carnivores themselves. And you know, we're always on the go, we're traveling. We've taken a bunch of flights together to have a bar that has 30 grams of fat too. Like that's huge from an energy density standpoint, right?

Yeah. He checks all the boxes or the company checks all the boxes. And I just think the fact that they're sourcing from a regenerative farm as well and Joyce farms just a win.

Win a hundred percent, the carnivore bar. So we got the affiliate link and then it's code mafia for 10% off.

And then another one of our sponsors, one of our favorite farms, Holy Cow. What they're doing at Holy Cow is pretty remarkable. The relationships that they've built in the industry and how long they've been doing the grass fed, grass finished regenerative model is really innovative. They were one of the first people to be doing that and supplying whole foods early on. Just a great community farm. And also just product is something that speaks for itself.

Yeah. I think number one to your point, Harry, they're just incredible people. We got to hear them speak at the Beef Initiative conference in Colorado. We had never met them before, but just hearing Warren's story where they were following a standard American diet, he had had a heart attack and they were just looking for answers of like, how can we actually get healthier? Do I need to be dependent on medication? And they started changing their diets to incorporating more animal foods. And he completely reversed those symptoms of his stroke. And now they're just doing things the right way. They're, they're grass finishing their beef. They're incorporating incredible practices. They have great relationships with the animals and they're very passionate about just like connecting directly with the customer and also educating their customer on grass finished beef.

Yeah. And I think the best part is too, they're shipping nationally and trying to reach a bigger audience. So being able to not only supply beef nationally, but also educate people on the quality of good, clean whole foods is just, it's an incredible mission.

How much do you love their beef.

Bacon, by the way? I know that's your go to.

It's one of the best things I've ever tasted.

It's that good?

No. Honest to God, it's so good.

Holy cow.

Yeah. One of the other farms that supports us is Perennial Pastures, another regenerative farm out of San Diego. Our experience with Kevin Muno, the owner, we had him on the show. A young first generation rancher who's really empowered by this movement of regenerative agriculture and really wants to be a leader in the space. I think our conversation with him was so insightful just in terms of how mission focused he is and how he really thinks about his farm as a business and wanting it to be here 50, 100 years down the road, even though he's just the first generation of it. And I think just being able to spend time with him out in San Diego was kind of the perfect indication of that. Where we got to go have a meal with him at his house, hang out with his wife and kids. Like, what an amazing person. And I think his mission focus around raising really high quality beef and restoring nutrients to the soil is just one of, one of those rare missions that I think everyone can get around.

Yeah, he has such a commitment to really feeding the local community in San Diego, in the San Diego county first and foremost. But he's also passionate about feeding the community around the country. So I know they've invested a lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of resources to being able to order beef in bulk on their website. So I now, I know that they now offer quarter, half, whole cows directly, directly off the website. So they have that great ancestral blend ground beef product. So it actually has organ grinds mixed into the ground beef. So you're getting the benefits of like an ounce or so of organ meat, but because it's in the ground beef, you really can't taste it at all. And I think to your point, Harry, just an another amazing person, you know, he, Kev was someone that he was following a paleo diet in college and started realizing, wow, when I nourish my body with real foods, I feel amazing. Had a really successful stint in tech, but realized that there was just something else that he was passionate about. So he's one of those rare cases where, you know, he put his money where his mouth is and he's a first generation farmer, just, you know, bootstrapping this thing, raising money and just so passionate about feeding the community. Just an amazing guy.

Yeah, absolutely. What are your thoughts on organ supplements and what do you think about the company that supports our podcast, Optimal Carnivore?

Such a good question, man.

I think organ meat is something that's gained a ton of notoriety the last few years and for good reason. I don't want to speak for you, but I think both of us have had a ton of benefits just incorporating organ meats into our diet. I would say that, you know, we definitely prefer the raw source of organs where we'll just, you know, chop up some liver and some heart and you know, there are different ways to prepare it. I think the raw source is the most nutrient dense. But, you know, we're fortunate that there are companies like Optimal Carnivore that exist that freeze dry organ capsules so you can actually take them on the go. You know, there, there are a ton of times where we're traveling where we're not going to have access to raw organs. So we can just, I can throw a little ziploc bag together of, of Optimal Carnivore and be good to go. And I think six pills is an ounce of organs, which is like the daily recommended amount that will give you a lot of those really good quality vitamins in there. Um, so that's kind of how I think we've been using it. What am I, did I miss anything there?

No, I, I, I think the, the fact that it, it just makes organs accessible to people and I think that organs are generally just a food group that are underutilized when it comes to eating nose to tail. And the nature's vitamin is a perfect name for these organ foods. And I think a lot of people are pretty, you know, in the mainstream object to eating organ meats, but when you put it in a pill form that doesn't taste bad, it's convenient, you can put it in your backpack, it makes things a lot easier. And I also think that just generally these brands are Optimal Carnivore is focused on making people healthier, which is just such A strong mission. And, you know, I think liver capsules is a great way to get people thinking about their health differently, 100%.

There's, there's probably someone that's listening to this right now and you're interested in organ meats, but the taste might make you a bit squeamish. You feel strange about eating raw foods. Maybe you cook liver and you don't like it. Maybe it has a metallic taste. I think that's also where the organ capsules play such a great role, is that you're still getting that nutrient density, but you're getting it in a very convenient capsule like format. And it just takes away any of that squeamishness that you might have to the taste. It's, you know, it's just a great product. And also Richard, who runs Optimal Carnivore, you know, he's, he started listening to the show really early on and he's built his own organ supply chain and is just doing things the right way and really trying to support the right people in the space. So just proud to be associated with them, honestly.

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for listening. Now we're going to go back to.

The show, so that could be cool to dig into. So you were at, I think you were at 250,000 followers and you were having a lot of success posting these incredible thoughts on Twitter. And then you would basically just repurpose them onto Instagram, essentially. And then you've had this. I mean, I think I checked your page two weeks ago you were at like 700,000 and now you're at 850,000. Like, the velocity of your growth from these animations has been unbelievable. And those videos are so well done. So, like, number one, congrats on that. But I mean, what is that? How has that been for you?

Yeah, so, you know, the page was kind of flat for a bit. Wasn't going down. It was just kind of stuck. I think I was stuck around 200,000 for most of this year, even up until I came to Austin in the fall, which was last October. Now it's end of January. And to be fair, I wasn't putting enough energy into it. I was posting still almost every day, but it was just kind of ticking a box, barely growing. And so I was busy building another business. But that's not really an excuse in my opinion. There are people who build huge businesses and still make a ton of content anyway. And then I met a guy named Dylan Jardin who was doing animations on social media. He did some for naval and they didn't do many, but he inspired me to try it for myself, and I did. And within, like, five videos, I was getting, like, millions of views. Just, like, ridiculous. It was like Thanksgiving. I was just sitting there and I saw someone with like a million followers share one of my posts, and I was like, oh, that's pretty cool. And I don't know if. I don't know if that, like, triggered anything. I don't think it did. I think it was just a coincidence. But, like, overnight I was. I went from getting like a few hundred followers a day to like a few thousand, and then like tens of thousands, then like 20, 20,000. And it was just like, so much dopamine for my brain. But, like, it was. It was crazy. And then when I realized that that hit, I was like, this is it. This is lightning in a bottle. No one is doing this. Like, like I said, I was inspired by naval. But he wasn't really doing it. He was only posting once. Nope, Barely posting them. I'm going to go all in. I'm going to get a team. I'm going to make these as good as I can. And now we're like, two months later from there.

Velocity is an interesting thing because.

When.

You commit to it and really start seeing the compounding effects of your efforts, there's so much momentum that can build in a really short period of time. And you're the perfect proof of that.

Yeah, it had the base. You had the base. It wouldn't have blown up like that otherwise. And now you, like, you've seen, like, other people, like Dan Ko skyrocket, a video that got, like, 20 million views, 25 million views. And there's, like, now there's, like, tons of people doing these animations. And so it's rare that you can, like, be early to something like that, but that's when you know you get good results.

You gotta know when to put the foot on the gas, too. Right. Like, social media is kind of an imitation game in a lot of ways. Like, you know, people see other stuff, are inspired. Oh, I'm gonna just do it like that. So you saw the opportunity, obviously, and just went for it.

Yeah. And like I said, once I knew it was hitting, I'm like, I knew other people were going to copy me. I need to, like, capitalize on this moment and this medium and be as good as I can. And still trying to push now, like, you know, now we're trying to do. I have so many ideas for what we're going to do, but, you know, we're trying to do these cartoons every Saturday behavior. Saturday morning cartoons, I love it. They're not that good yet, but they'll get good and just keep pushing because people can copy the output, but it's a lot harder to copy the input. They don't know what I'm doing behind the scenes or how my team works or the ideas I'm working on.

Long term, I feel like there's also a tendency for humans to focus on the number 850,000 and be like, oh, my God, there must have been some trick. They view the animation as the trick or the hack that got you to 850 and don't realize the fact that you've been putting in constant reps and iterations for the last few years to get you to that point.

Well, yeah, that's the thing. The first, like, 30 animations I did, I didn't write anything new. They were not new scripts. They were the same exact posts I'd done just, you know, in a new medium that people liked.

Yeah, there's. There's something to what you said about, like, that you don't know about, or people don't know the inputs. And I do think there's something about creativity where you are drawing inspiration from other people. But a true creator is never really all that scared of competition because they know their uniqueness and it should push you.

Like, I'm happy these guys are started doing it. Happy. Like, Dan Ko went past me because it pushes me. If no one was doing it on the same level, I might be like, all right, you know what? I can do, like, less videos. They don't have to be as good.

Right.

But it, you know, competition should, like, motivate you, you know?

Yeah.

Especially as men. It's like, you need to be pushed by other men to get to the next level.

And it's validation, you know, it's like, if people aren't copying you, what you're doing is probably not working. So it's, you know, it's a sign that something's working.

What was your inspiration for the animations was because I've seen a few. Like, Theo Vaughan does them, and I'm.

Like, I actually hadn't seen those. It's really. Does he do cartoons?

He does. Like, every once in a while he'll put them out and it's like. It'll be like when he's on Rogan, and I'll put together, like, these cartoony.

I think I've seen them. They're really good.

They're really, really well done.

Were you saying for those or just like, were you saying for those cartoons I'm doing or just videos in general?

Yeah, just the cartoons that you were thinking.

So, yeah, the inspiration is. It's pretty specific. This is a video game called Fallout 3.

Okay.

You guys know that game?

No.

Exactly. Yeah.

It's like, Jose's nodding his head over there.

My guy. Such a good game. And I was. I love video games when I was a kid, like, I was purely obsessed back then. Haven't played video games in, like, years. But there's a cartoon style in that game I really like. You could go look it up. Fallout 3 animation, like, very similar to what I'm doing. And. Yeah, I don't know. I think I thought it was cool. We're going to see, though. I need those to hit. Yeah. And if they don't hit, I'm going to start something completely new.

Yeah.

And I think they can't hit. Like, the next one we're doing is really cool. It's a different thing than, like, different type of thing. You're trying to tell, like, a story in, like, 20 seconds. It's harder. But I do know cartoons on Instagram go crazy. There are cartoon accounts, printing money. Really. And so that's kind of my philosophy. And this is why, like, I was studying Pixar. Like, here's my playbook. Pixar. How they started is they started with. Well, they actually started with technology. It was a part of George Lucasfilm making Star Wars. They started as a technology division under him. He sold it because they wanted to make their own. By the way, these details are, like, not gonna be perfect, but they're close enough.

Close enough.

He sold it because I believe Pixar wanted to make their own stuff. George Lucas didn't care about that. He just wanted the tech. And then. So Pixar was its own thing. And John Lasseter, that guy I mentioned before, the Pixar animator, worked under there. But now Pixar is its own thing. So they started making art commercials and short films. They use short films. There's actually a short film called Tin Toy. And guess what that led to Toy Story. That's kind of my plan. Make short stuff short form content. 15, 20 seconds to validate. Validate ideas. And then when it hits, go and make long form. That's kind of what I want to do over the next year. You know, time to come.

Yeah.

It's gonna be so exciting to see you. Just made me think I would be curious how guys like Lassiter Musk et Cetera, almost like foster obsession with their employees. Like, you have the obsession because you're the owner, but how do you kind of, like, bring that out of your employees? That would just be something interesting to explore.

Yeah, there is. Pixar had, like, the best work culture ever. If you want to study, like, culture, you should read into them. There's a good documentary on Disney plus. It's called the Pixar Story. Like, they talk about. There's a quote. It's like a Pixar. You could draw on the wall or make a hole in it, and it was fine. Like, it was really cool. Yeah, they. I mean, if you worked at that company, you had to be obsessed. They had a. Had a thing there and there. People were actually too obsessed at some points. They had a thing with Pixar called the. What was it? The perfectly shaded penny problem. And what it meant was that people at Pixar, like, imagine Pixar films, how detailed they are. People would spend days shading a penny on a scene that no one would see. And it's like, that's, like, too far. That's, like a waste of resources. Right. And so, yeah, that's kind of. That's not exactly. You're saying, but, like, people out there were obsessed.

What do you think holds people back? Your question made me think of this. Holds people back from being obsessed or not leaning into their uniqueness.

Yeah. It's just people don't push themselves in general, and people don't realize it's possible. People get into scripts that they live on, and then they just repeat the same day over and over and over. And it's not comfortable, you know, it's really not comfortable. But I think, yeah, people just settle. And it's also the people you're around. Like, I've been around people, and it's just. They're not interested in obsession. They're not interested in huge goals or achieving big things. And that can bring you down if you. If you hang out with them too much or if you can't filter it in your mind, you know, like, when I hang out with those types of people, I don't think there's anything wrong with those people if they're, you know, good people. But I have, like, a filter in my mind where, like, I am in my head, like, kind of living in my own world, thinking about what I'm gonna do after thinking about how I need to stay on my mission. And I don't know if that answered your question, but.

No, it does.

Yeah.

Surrounding yourself with the Right. People is huge. And we were saying too, we, the three of us, kind of have a commonality where we're all northeast guys. And you and I had both lived in New York. You still live in New York. But it's very interesting when you think about surrounding yourself with the right people. Just New York is great if you're in a corporate job and you want to be doing the finance thing, but it's always happy hours and a very particular type of behavior. And then you're exposed to somewhere like Austin, and people are obsessed with nutrition and health and wellness and podcasting. You're. For us, I think we were exposed to a different type of person that we didn't really know existed being in the Northeast. And it seems like that's something that you're encountering being in New York, but now spending a lot more time in Austin as behavior hack is blowing up.

Yeah, I want to, like, there's definitely more people here. At least that. At least. It's also smaller, I feel like. So, like, I know you guys are kind of like in your own place, a little further from downtown, but you run into people more often, I feel like. Is that true?

Definitely. I feel like I randomly run into people all the time. Yeah. And I think that, yeah, maybe it's just because, like, downtown is relatively small, but I feel like people are kind of like in the same patterns, like Ladybird Trail. Like, the amount of times I've just randomly bumped into a friend on there and had like a 10 minute combo is, like, insane.

It's a little slower. I feel like, too, you get to like, talk to people. I don't think you run into people as much. You know, if you live on the Upper east side, like where we lived, and like Williamsburg or like downtown Brooklyn.

Like, you're in different worlds, different countries.

You'Ve never seen that person. And also just people are in a rush, you know, and so, yeah, it's like a much. There's definitely relentless people in New York, but in Austin, I think there's more creative, creative, relentless people, and they're in tighter concentration overall. Yeah.

I mean, even this show and what we're doing with the Meat Mafia is just a byproduct of surrounding yourself with the right people. And I think you've been seeing. We've been posting more about that three by 60 challenge, which is very simply, like, every single day, run three miles, walk whatever you want to do. Run, walk three miles, and then do 60 squats. And we don't care what it is, whether it's body weight, squat front squat, back squat, loaded up, just literally get the 60 reps done. And it's about the discipline and the consistency. And I used to run a lot more and then prior to this year, I was just doing more strength training and stuff like that. Just us being back out of Bastrop because he, he pushes himself every single run that he does with where it's like my issue had been like kind of coasting a little bit when I knew I had more in the tank. Literally just by running with him every day. I was going from, I think when I got out to bash drop, I was like 10 to 9, 45 minute mile pace to 8 minute mile pace. And the only thing that I changed differently was I just ran with the right person that got me to push to that next level. One change.

It's huge. Huge. That's how I was with our friend Noah, who's mine, when I got off the flight in that workout, which I hadn't trained that hard in like months, dude.

So, you know, he likes, he likes to pull some creative crap out of the bag.

He likes to not tell you until.

You do the workout.

He like loves these little surprises and like, it's like a fucking magician.

Yeah. Yeah, those were fun.

I totally misinterpreted what he said too. I was like, no, that was a confusing. I ended up doing way more than I needed to do. But sorry.

No, yeah, that was, it was a good workout though.

Yeah.

Right?

Yeah. How important is the physical side of everything that you, that you're doing? Because seems like they just go, like being physically fit and active just goes hand in hand with like all the cerebral stuff that you talk about.

Yeah, they go hand in hand. But right now for me at least, and I'm not like saying this is the right thing to do, but it's more like for. It's more for ideas than anything else. And not just like mental state, but like actual tangible ideas. And so what I mean by that is like I try to almost every day, if I can go to the gym, no phone for an hour, train, no go in the sauna and hot tub or cold tub, 30 minutes, that's like an hour and a half, two hours, no phone and like that. If I do that every day, it solves everything I need to solve in life. And so that's what I mean when I say, like, it's almost like because I haven't been training like as hard or I haven't been as dialed lately because I've been so obsessed with the other stuff, which. Which is no excuse, but it's just how I've. How I've been. I've just. My mind has been somewhere else. And so even if I can do that a few times a week, you know, no phone training, no phone sauna, that is, like, the number one thing you could do to change your life. I think, literally, it's so simple.

No phone is the key. Yeah.

And so. But the training is everything, like, in my life. So, like, when I stopped playing soccer, I was home and I just started. I had liked working out. I was always the kid, like, doing extra curls during, like, the weight room, you know, with this, with the team. But then I just had nothing to do, so I was like, all right, should probably work out every day. Try to get jacked. Yeah. And that's what I did and just fell in love with it. And that's when, like, you know, when you're a young kid and you've never really trained before, and now, you know, you're going four or five times a week, you're, you know, you're taking pre workout, you're getting pumped, getting PRs, you're getting bigger. That just, like, physically changing, like, that creates so much confidence to go do shit.

Oh, and dude, you take that energy with you the rest of the day, too. That was a big thing with us for the 3 by 60 is it's like you came.

You.

You came up with the three miles, and then I. We kind of Both did the 60, but we were kind of like, what's the sweet spot of distance where it's like, it's manageable, but you get that sweat and it makes you feel really good. And it's like, when you. When you do that workout or any type of workout, even if it's just small, there's just, like, this different type of energy and sharpness that comes from it. And when we don't do it, I totally notice, like, just a slight dullness through the rest of my day.

Yeah, I think, like, the end of the run for me, it channels all of my focus on just, like, a few simple thoughts. Like, I try to, like, really clear my head in the first, like, two miles. And then that last mile is me just, like, focusing on the task at hand, but also just, like, channeling my attention through the rest of the day.

Yeah, you need that, like, initial time to let your mind, like, reset a little bit.

Yeah.

Like, I'll, you know, you go in the sauna and the first, like, five, ten minutes, your mind, if you don't have your phone, your mind is still, like, kind of scrambled, but then the signal becomes clearer, just like you're saying. And the same with working out. That's the problem, I think people get off their phone, but they don't do it too long. They don't do it long enough. But it's really that last portion that helps things click. Yeah.

How do you think about kind of structuring and building creativity into your day with all the writing that you're doing, the animations, all the new different forms of content, do you have a specific type of time of day that you like to write, or does it kind of just come to you in this spurt of.

Of inspiration?

Yeah, I'm very much like more of a spurt, like in the moment inspiration. I don't have like a complicated, like, system content system right now. Maybe I should, and I probably will need to as, like, I try to make more stuff, but it's very much like making sure I'm getting myself in the right energy states to get the ideas. That's what I meant with the working out, how it's so important. Like most. I think Horosi. Alex Morzi says this too. Most of his tweets come from in between sets. And I'm kind of the same way. And so, yeah, it's about that. I am, I think the most, you know, unique content starts with the most unique inspiration. And so I think I, more than most, the average person at least is. Am like constantly looking at things like taking inspiration. And so, you know, specifically, like, I just have endless notes. I use a thing called my mind, like a good soft. It's basically like Pinterest, but like, save your. Save stuff from images around the web screen capture. So I'm like constantly saving stuff because. Yeah, I just think creativity is combining things. You know, that's not my thought. That's just like a common thought. And you have to be constantly taking inspiration, especially those. Like a big way I made these animations was just taking so much inspiration from the most random places, the most ra. Like Apple has a video from 2020 2000, like 9 or 2006, like a keynote. They did motion graphics. I was like, really like that. And like, I sent it to my team and like we did took that. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

So it's like you have to look where no one else is looking. Like that video game that you guys hadn't heard of. Like, it. Like, what do you think? I came up with that style cartoon.

Yeah.

Yeah. Like, I Didn't like, I. I'm not that creative.

Like.

Like, I am, but I'm not. And so, yeah, it's getting unique inspiration and then violently iterating.

Yeah.

So, like, if you look at my animations when I started them, they're all really simple. They were not complicated. And this is actually unrelated. Maybe not a good thing like this. People like simple stuff. I'm learning. But regardless, if you look at the quality overall of the first animations I did two months ago, it's like night and day. And yeah, there's a.

There's a really good book. It's thin, but it's called Steal like an Artist. Have you heard of it? So good.

Yeah.

And I think one of the chapter. I have all three of his book. I think. I don't know the guy's last name. It's Austin Cleon. And one of them is, like, talking about putting yourself, like, creating like a works workspace for yourself or workshop for yourself, that drives the creativity that you're trying to bring out in yourself. I feel like that's such an underrated component of creativity because, like, when I'm trying to write and I'm doing it in a space that isn't bringing out the right level of creativity, like I'm writing in the kitchen or whatever, it's just not the same as when I have, like, an actual, like, sanctuary to be creative.

Do you need to be alone when you guys write stuff? I, like, struggle writing around people.

I like being alone.

Me too.

I could be in a coffee shop, but, like, I can't be, like, with friends.

You know what I mean?

It's hard getting that deep work done, even to the point. Today we were looking at a couple warehouses that we're thinking about moving to, and I. That was like, the first thing that I thought about was, hey, can I actually, like, if we put a desk here, can I actually see myself sitting down and actually being able to write content? Because that's where, like, everything we're doing is driving from. Or like, these tweets. So if I can't write that, then nothing else is going to flow out from that.

And that's the thing. If you mess that up, you mess up everything 100%. I mean, not that if that's the main thing, you can't mess that up.

Yeah, that's like. That's the engine, right, that everything else surrounds itself with.

Yeah.

It's funny that the, like, the creative process involves both being around people, but then also isolating yourself. Like, I always, when I was in school, I needed to isolate myself before I could go try to, like, talk to people about whatever topic it was that we were studying. And I think that's actually a really important part of creativity. Like, driving yourself away from people so you can just organize your own thoughts.

Yeah. It's like, I wrote this the other day. I think you have to first get inspiration, be around people, be around ideas, load yourself with, like, different inputs. But then you have to be alone. You have to be alone. You have to be quiet and, like, let those things come to you. That's why, like, I love the sauna. If you learn. If you read in the morning, right. Read some from a book or two books, then you go in the sauna for 30 minutes. You will have infinite ideas. Yeah, but people don't really do that that often.

The amount of alpha you've probably derived from sauna thoughts is insane. You've probably written a thousand tweets in the sauna easily.

Like, there are times I swear to God, I've almost tripped at Lifetime my gym because I leave the sauna and I'm, like, running to my phone to write down the ideas I had.

Because you're not bringing the sauna into the. You're not bringing the phone in the sauna. Cardinal sin. You can't be that guy.

I'm not gonna bring in, like, a notepad, like, people. I said that about working out too. It's like, oh, just bring a little. I said how I struggle with getting ideas when I'm lifting, but I don't have my phone. And people are like, oh, bring a notepad with you. I could do that, but, like, I don't want to be the notepad guy.

Yeah.

Is there anything worse, though, than having, like, an amazing thought and then not having something to write it down and then you miss it. That horned me last night, dude.

Did you.

I had a fucking genius thought. No, I didn't write it down.

Could have changed our whole business.

It's the worst blue balls ever. Yeah. It's the worst thing ever.

I remember. I think James Clear has this quote, if it takes less than two minutes to do, do it now. And I've been thinking about that a lot with some of our ideas. I'm like, this will take me 25 seconds max to just open out my phone and put it into my notes tab. So I've been doing that a lot more recently, and it's been helping me a lot with just, like, content.

Just writing in general, too. It's like when you have the Idea versus. Versus. Let's say you write. You have an idea for a thread, right. Or a tweet, and you write it down and you come back to it tomorrow, it's a completely new thing. It's like. It's like in that moment, you have it. You have this whole feeling around that idea. You have to do it right away. Yeah, that's why I'm so, like, spontaneous with content, I think. Like, I wrote this the day I wrote that. People, I think, feel the energy you put into your content. Like, even your guys content. You write. Guys such. Write such great threads and tweets. So, like, to the point. So, like, succinct. So it like, evokes people. And there's like a lot of feeling behind that. You know, you guys had your personal journeys and people can tell, you know, And I think if you wait, if you, like, get too systemized with it, I think you lose some of that feeling. I can tell. Like, it's hard. It's hard to explain, but I could tell with a post when I write it. And it's just. It literally is just words, Right? Like, what else? But you guys writing in general, it's just words, how they combine. Yeah, but people can sense the feeling that you were putting into it, I think.

Definitely. And there's a lot of personality, too, that goes into it. Like, when I see someone's like, Twitter profile and it's very clearly a ghostwriter or someone who just doesn't put all their effort into putting out a solid tweet, it's very easy to tell that there's not the full personality in that person's feed.

That's why I don't like people to do that. Because now you might have had good ideas, but I'm never gonna read your stuff. There's so many people using ghostwriters on Twitter and it's all the same threads, whatever, ten rules for this. And it's like, maximum.

Optimize your testosterone. Yeah, go ahead.

Sorry, Jose's laug. Yeah, but it's like now, like, these are cool people too. They're just people who want to optimize their business. And, you know, maybe that's fine that they lose me and they still have hundreds of thousands of followers. But, like, I can't. I'm not going to pay attention to you anymore. Not going to read your stuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I feel like if you're paying a ghostwriter to get to 50,000 followers, it's like the equivalent of taking a pill to lose weight.

That's like you.

Right.

It's like you didn't actually earn it to get to that point. So you're not going to keep the weight off.

That's so good. You're not going to keep trust. Same thing. Yeah, that's such a good analogy.

It's like the Internet's like the ultimate meritocracy that's sussing out genuine content.

Yeah. My friend Dylan says this thing says you get the views you deserve. What you said just reminded me of that. It's so true. It's unrelated to what we were just talking about, but it's like, people complain a lot about social media, but at the end of the day, you do get what you deserve. Especially now more than ever with. For you pages, it's like a free for all. You know, Totally. You can. You can make people stop scrolling. You know, everything you want is on the other side of that. Right. And it's just about, how do you do that? You know, people are. That's why I've wrote a few times. It's. People are getting the same thing over and over. There are people getting so many workout clips, so many podcast clips. That's why I like this one. Excuse me. We said we want to do it in black and white difference a little different. People are getting fed so much of the same that now their for you pages is so much new that if your stuff is not new, it's not gonna get any traction on there.

Yeah, it's a really good point. Is there anything that you do in particular when you hit that writer's block or those moments where like a day or two goes by and you're like, damn, I haven't. I haven't had that spark.

Yeah, because it happens all the time. Like here. It happened a little bit, actually, because I was around someone, I was around people a lot. And so, like we said, we need to be alone to have the best ideas. And there's two things. One is, like, working out. Just put your phone away, go work out. If I can't do that, though, I will. And you know what informs a lot of my content, I'm sure you guys, too, is you look at your past stuff that's good. You look at other people's stuff that is good. And, you know, you take some inspiration from there, you know, especially when you put out so much. Excuse me. You've written so many tweets. You know, you can just pull one small part of that and make something new or just, you know, make the same thing that you wrote four months ago. No one's going to remember. Yeah. Like a lot of my content just starts with data. Like the stuff I write on Instagram is just my best performing tweets. If something doesn't do well on Twitter, I rarely post it on Instagram. Yeah. Because I can take more shots there. It's easier.

It is interesting though, how it's like, I don't understand why you don't have a shitload of followers on Twitter too. Because for so long you were just taking your tweets and just repurposing them on Instagram. It's so interesting the way the different platforms work.

Yeah. I'm pretty convinced that Instagram boosts Twitter content. Or it's just that the Twitter content stands out when people are scrolling and they stop.

That might be it.

I mean, factor, factor probably both those in. And that's why it works so well.

And it boosts the tweet style posts. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't. I wouldn't say it boosts Twitter, but it kind of does in that way because it's boosting those posts that are just tweets. Yeah. Like my stuff, it does way better when I write it like that versus, like a fancy design. So, you know, that's why I do it. It's easier for people to share. That's why it's easier for people to share in their stories. They're used to sharing that format. People don't have to. I think content, it's all about reducing effort for the person viewing it and watching it. That's good writing. Good writing is easy reading. Right. And you know, people don't think about what this is. They're just like, oh, it's a tweet. Like, I'm gonna read this, right? Yeah, yeah. Twitter. Yeah. I'm starting to grow on there now though, which is really cool. I'm getting like, really? I will. I would bet you I have a hundred K by the end of the year there. Just because I'm like getting really good engagement now because of the Instagram. Excuse me. Growing. And I've also started to talk about it more. Like my bio now says like, my mission. A billion views a month. By I think at the end of this year, I said, and like, that's cool. Like, I've gotten so many people following me now and they DM me. And I think a lot of it's because of that. You know, people want to follow people on missions.

Totally.

Um, the concept of getting a billion views a month is actually unfathomable. And you're Literally that close, like almost 10%. How crazy is that to think about?

It's a lot. Yeah. I mean, you try not to overhype it because can't. But it, I think my, my view has always been, or at least the last few months has been, because there's been, you know, we've been talking about monetization, different ideas. It's just like if I can keep making the best content and if I can inspire. So, you know, you have views, impressions, and then you have reach impressions. Views is like, you know, the eyeballs you're getting. Someone can watch multiple times, then you have reach, which is the amount of people or the amount of accounts. I think right now we're reaching probably cross everything, probably like 20 to 30, 25 to 30 million accounts. And it's like if I can just keep reaching tens of millions of people, I can reach 100 million people. So that's not views, that's people think I can. Things will work out.

Absolutely.

And all doing that is just making better content that people share. Everything I do, everything I want to do is on the other side of that one simple thing. So I try not to forget that.

What stands out to me about you is it feels like you really try to put yourself in the viewer's shoe, which I, I, I really do think that's kind of the key to all this because you understanding, like, what's going to get their attention is like cracking the code. Right. And I think a lot of people out there who are trying to get traction or grow an account, like, they might just be projecting their own views without thinking about the other side.

Yeah. The biggest problem I meet with creators is they want to make what they want to make instead of what their audience wants to consume.

Yes.

And you care. I think if you care so much about your message, you should put it in a package that people want and you have to be able to get their attention. Otherwise they're just never going to read it. They're never gonna hear what you have to say. And I think over time, once you have your audience, you could make more stuff you wanna make, experiment more. But that's the biggest problem I see when I, like, I'm sure you guys talk to creators or people who wanna be creators, and they say, oh, I really wanna do this though, or I need to make it like this. Like, no, you don't. If you really wanna do this, you have to make it how people want it. Yeah, yeah.

Your audience will tell you what they want.

They'll tell you it's like my friend Dylan, I just quoted you get the views you deserve. Especially on for you platforms, which basically is every platform now.

Yeah. What do you think about in terms of the evolution of social media? Because it does feel like we're still so early in the game of, you know, creating online and so so few people are really tapping into the value there. I truly think that. So do you see the world just like continuing down this like social. Social media driven world?

Yeah, I think so. That's how I felt when I started it. I just thought it was like, this is what you. I have to do. And it's going to be long and it's going to be really difficult. You know, this was like 29, 20. It was four years ago, basically. So really bad at math was that 2018-2019-2019-2018, 2019. Somewhere around one of those years. One of those years anyway. And I just realized like everyone is on their phones all day. You go to the gym, everyone's on their phones. This is where people are living. I should probably spend time in that world and you know, maybe now I spent too much time, especially lately. But like, at least I'm like creating something. And the problem is people are spending all day on it but not making anything. They're just consuming. And I just think it's gonna get deeper and deeper and deeper. Yeah, I don't think it's going anywhere. I think there's gonna be a lot more creators. I think every platform's gonna be a for you platform, which is already happening. You know, Twitter now is a for you platform. You have the, for your page. I've been using it. I actually like it. A lot of people hate it. Like it's been showing me some cool stuff. You know, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube shows you stuff you like. I think there's gonna. What's happening with every platform is it's making it easier and easier to create. So, you know, first you had like blogs you had to go write. Then you had Instagram, you could go take pictures. Then you had TikTok, you could just remix stuff. You don't even have to come up with stuff. You literally make the template. It's getting easier and easier. And now you're gonna have AI stuff, which I don't like to talk too much about. Still new. It's obviously insane though. Eventually it's gonna be so easy to make stuff that everyone's gonna make stuff. And I just think when you think about, I think you should package your obsession into something that compounds. I'VE said that before, and it's so true. Nothing compounds like social media and building an audience. Nothing.

Do you have any advice for maybe someone that's listening to this show that is a consumer, but they want to make the jump to creator, but they're worried about judgment from their family or friends or maybe just even like imposter syndrome. I'm just curious, is that something that you maybe experienced 2018, 2019, when you were making that shift for the first time?

Yeah, 100%. And I still experience it partially. I'm still getting used to showing my face more. I'm still working on that. So I don't know how much my opinion matters here, but it does kind of matter. Because the reality you have to realize is that no one is thinking about you that much. People will see your friends from school that you're worried about seeing your stuff. They're going to see it on their feed, assuming you do it on your account. And then they're just going to go on with their life and worry about their next problem, see the next piece of content. They'll look at it and be like, oh, that's Zach. Okay. And they'll scroll if they're a good friend, they'll like it and whatever. But the reality is, no one's thinking that much about you. Just go, do what you want. You eventually just have to say, you know, screw it. Yeah.

There's so much fear that I think people deal with today, and a lot of it is like, fear of judgment that holds people back. And it's pretty unfortunate. And I think everyone kind of deals with it in their own way. But as soon as you find that outer limit of you starting to put yourself out there, there really is that, like, compounding effect of just sharing your ideas. And they're good ideas. You'll get rewarded for it.

Exactly. Yeah. You do just have to. Yeah. It just has to be a thing. And it slowly will click in your mind that no one's thinking that much about you. Yeah. You know, and you should go put yourself out there.

Yeah.

It's like that. Are you really gonna let the judgment of someone else prevent you from giving your gifts to the world? Who are we talking to that said that they feel like they feel an actual obligation to give their gifts to the world and that's. Was it Zubi?

It was Zubi and Michael Chandler. Yeah, both of them.

That's one of the things that they had both said. That's like their mental model, as opposed to just selfishly focusing on, like, the Fear or the judgment, they. They literally tell themselves that I have an obligation. If anything I'm saying or creating can help one other person. I need to put the content out.

There that pushes them without anything to do.

Yes.

Seems to be the common. Common denominator. Yeah.

I think it's cool, too, that you're going to be showing your face more, too, because I think when you're. We've talked about this a lot. Whether it's nutrition obsession, whenever you're speaking so much about something, having that. Be being able to show yourself, number one, it's more genuine. But secondly, it shows people, like, the proof of work. It gives them skin in the game. And it's like, I think people have an obligation to share that. I don't know if you guys agree or disagree, but, yeah, you need more.

I need. I need to put more skin in the game, especially. I'm going to do it on YouTube. That's the way I'm going to start it. And I think it's going to be really good. I think I'm all right. I think if you're trying to do anything with content, you kind of have to build your own little cult.

You do.

And I think a lot about this. I need to think more about it, but I think I'm actually doing a decent job. Like, there are a lot. I tweeted this the other day. There are a lot of people who are adding obsession obsessed to their bios. I called it out the other day. I'm like, hey, this is so cool if you did this. DM me. And a bunch of people messaged me.

Nice.

A bunch of people did it. Someone got a Follow Obsession tattoo. Really insane.

That's so cool.

It's one of my. Like, he's a friend, honestly. He's like a. He's followed the page. And I followed him for a long time. Awesome dude named Chris. And, you know, what do you need for a cult, Right? You need a leader that people can model. You need a purpose and you need a path. I'm kind of. I kind of have those things right now, but I'm kind of trying to build them out and, you know, so, like, what's. What's the leader? It's. Let's just use, like. Let's use Liver King as an example. Right? You have Liver King. He's the leader. What's the purpose? It's like, you know, the ancestral lifestyle. Right. Kind of similar to some of the stuff you guys talk about. Yes. And then what's the path? It's Whatever Nine Ancestral tenants. It's all of his products. You know, you build that whole universe and that, but the person really is the start of it.

And, yeah, what's interesting about social media, too, is you can. You can operate under the guise of an anonymous account. Like, we started out anonymous.

I remember. Yeah.

Which was. It was an interesting transition for us, but I think it actually, like, played into our story where we were able to, like, validate ideas. And then as we. As our show developed, we're like, we're already showing our faces. Like, we should just, like, lean into it a little bit more and, like, make that part of what we're doing. But I think it actually helped us develop our flow and, like, helped us deal with some of that, like, early on, like, hey, we're putting our ideas out there. There's. There's literally no, you know, worries about those sort of, like, frictions around putting stuff out there.

Yeah, I kind of relate to that because I kind of started the same way. Like, behavior act was pretty basically anonymous at first. Completely anonymous. No name. It was like a different logo. Yeah. But now I think it matters, you know?

Yeah.

It's easier for people to mention you to, like, oh, I know these guys. You guys just got mentioned on Joe Rogan. Maybe that would have happened if you were anonymous. Maybe it would have, but I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, literally how that whole relationship started was that we were speaking at a. A conference in Georgia. That's actually how we met Jose. He got hooked up as our producer, so shout out to that. But Adam Curry was there, and we had no relationship with him. We wanted to know him, and we let us. We led a panel on nutrition, just kind of sharing our own respective health journeys. And I think it, you know, it resonated with him. And then we built a friendship, had him on the show, and then that's kind of, I think, what led to him giving us a little bit of shout out on Rogan. But it still all came from, like, let's take this a step further. Let's do the podcast. Let's start putting our faces out there, doing more video, doing more speaking appearances. And that's, you know, that's been a big thing for us.

You mentioned before, anyone who's obsessed has heroes, and you mentioned Arnold. But I'm curious if you have any heroes that you think about when you're putting in your work.

Mine are, like, so basic, but it's okay.

Mom and dad?

No, not mom and dad. No, my mom is like a badass. Entrepreneur, which is cool.

I believe it.

Yeah. She has a medical billing company. Kills. It kills. It might have changed over time a lot. One for my career. What I want to do in, like, the short term is like, Jocko Willink. I might have mentioned that to. That to you guys. He's done such a good job at basically, like, monetizing everything he's good at and everything he loves. There's very little that that guy does that isn't monetized, truthfully. You know, like, he has a clothing brand, a supplement brand, a leadership agency. He has an energy drink. He doc. Just his whole life on social media. He writes books, you know, he's always reading. That informs the books, that informs the podcast. Like, every single thing kind of filters down to, like, these different pieces of media and these different companies he owns. I really like that model for life.

You know, so create like, pure alignment.

Pure alignment, yeah. Everything you're doing. And so I'm. I'm still kind of in, like, for part of that, I think, which is like, building my name and my content. No, that's not a reason to, like, wait on the other stuff.

Mr.

Beast is definitely up there. Like, I just love, like, the scale he's at, like that. I just. I want to be huge with my stuff. And so, like, he is, like, very big. And people underestimate him, I think still at how big he's gonna get because he's so young, still so in like the. Or like so many people copy Mr. Beast on YouTube. But he's the perfect example of you can't copy the. You know, you can copy the product, you cannot copy the process. People do not understand, like, what his team is like. He has people on his team that are Minecraft world design designers building Minecraft worlds for his gaming videos. Think about that. Think about that. He has over or hundreds of employees at 24. Like, people don't realize how much having that machine for you, you know, compounds over time with all that content. So he's up there. The basic one is like, Steve Jobs, I don't know. I like to, for fun, think about my next few decades, what I'm gonna do. And one in my mind is focus on content for the next decade, then focus on companies and products, and then maybe after that just make movies or something.

I don't know.

But Steve Jobs kind of sort of didn't really do that. He owned Pixar, right? Steve Jobs owned Pixar, but he wasn't animating or directing movies. He was directing the culture of the team. I guess. But so, yeah, like, you know, kind of have my Pixar first and then go build Apple. Not actually, but, like, that would be kind of a cool model for, like. I think what I want to do.

That would be a really cool model.

Yeah. And obviously his obsession is, like, unparalleled Steve Jobs, you know, and there's a lot to learn from him. Like, he. He was a really bad manager at the start of his career, too. You know, that's the cool thing about having heroes. A lot of that I learned from this guy. David Senra, Founders podcast. Right. I want to give him credit because he is such a good podcast and talks all the time about heroes and how all these obsessed people, all these great people throughout history had a hero. Steve Jobs hero was. I think I'm going to say his name right, Edwin Land, who created Polaroid. And when you hear that, like, oh, that kind of makes sense. Polaroid was like, the first time you could, like, easily take a picture. I think it printed out right away. Think about that. That kind of relates to Apple. Like, the first time you could easily, you know, computer.

Why did they say that he was a bad leader in the beginning? Was he almost too obsessive or too abrasive? Because I know that he had a legendary temper, but I don't know if your research brought you into that at all.

Yeah, it did. It was partially that. It was also, I think he was unwilling to hear other ideas, which. Pixar was a huge part of their culture. It was like everything that made them. They would take ideas from everywhere. They did something really cool called Notes Day. So at Pixar, once a year, they'd get everyone together in the atrium and they would build teams of different departments. So you'd have an animator with an accountant with legal, and they'd all just share notes on how they could make Pixar better. That's something he learned, is to slow down and listen to other people's ideas. I think because he was super. Like, people talk about the Macintosh and it was hell working for him.

I think there's kind of this idea out there that happiness and obsession kind of contradict each other in some ways. And I'm wondering what you think about that. Long sip.

Excuse me? Long sip.

He's getting ready to fire off an incredible answer.

Long sip.

No. Yeah. So happiness, obsession. Obsession is falling in love with the hard part. It's when you really love, like, the really difficult part of what you're doing. And so, yeah, you know, I think you asked, do people Confuse happiness. You can't be obsessed and happy at the same time.

Yeah. Like they can contradict each other. I think there's a world, like, because it's a world where it's, it aligns.

There's a lot of nuance to the word obsession. Right. Like some people hear obsession. They think like a murder mystery where like a boy is like obsessed with a girl. I hear obsession. I think like Steve Jobs obsessed with like computers and.

Yeah.

And so. Excuse me. Yeah, the right obsession. The obsession I care about. It's like pure happiness. Even though it's really like gritty and difficult at times. Yeah.

I think the obsession creates the happiness.

Honestly, if you're not following obsession. If I'm not following obsession, I'm not happy. I'm sure you guys feel the same way. Totally. Like when I, when I wake up and if I don't do something like that I need to do like creating, especially like only for my mission. I get like general like legit anxiety. Like I just can't like function.

Yeah.

Like I'm like, my skin's crawling a little bit.

You know, we can relate to that so strongly. I feel like depression and anxiety comes from just inactivity and just general disengagement with your life. The happiest and most fulfilled I've ever felt is this year because we've like, this is the first time in my life where I feel like I've truly gone all in on something and have the full on skin in the game. It's like new, fresh dopamine hits every single day. New relationships, new followers, new podcast episodes. Connecting with people that we've looked up to, connecting with people, trying to help them get healthier. It's like you're all in.

Because you're all in. Yeah. That's like obsession. Obsession compounds. And like, so that's why you're feeling that way. Like Danny, our friend Danny Miranda says it, it's like when you're all. When you're in alignment and that's what.

You guys are when you're obsessed too. You're just constantly playing offense, which I think is the best feeling, because offense is you just seeing opportunities out there and defense is you trying to like protect against what could happen to you.

Yeah.

And I don't think that's any way to live.

I don't think so. Yeah.

You've mentioned video games a few times during this podcast and I was just curious. I know there's that mental model that you should basically approach your life as if like you're your own RPG character. Kind of like that growth mindset. I love that. Yeah. And I'm just curious how you feel about that or if that's something that you think about with your own life.

Yeah, I love that quote. I try to remind myself this is all just like an insane game that we're just like these bundles of neurons, like telling ourselves a good story about what's happening, trying to do something meaningful or something that we think is meaningful. I love this quote by this guy, Peter Levels on Twitter. He says, life is the best video game ever. It has infinite levels, insane graphics, and the best haptic feedback ever. The only problem is most people will never pick up the controller and it's so good. And that story was in reference to him like leaving his job, moving across the country, starting businesses, being. He was like one of the first like digital nomads, at least kind of like attached to that term. Yeah, I love that. And it's like if you think life is a video game, like, you should probably like think about a regular video game. No one wants to play a video game on easy, right? It's like boring. You want to play on hard. That's like obsession. Obsession is taking the hard route. And then there's that. I think about that.

I also think you wanna build a badass character too.

There's that too. Yeah. It's like Fallout. It's like a game where you could customize your character. You could change everything. You should approach life that way too. You should like, you know, I've tried to do that. When I was a kid, I would draw pictures of myself in the future. This was like the start of college when I was like frail and couldn't say hi to a stranger. And I would draw and write different things, literally just like a video game, like different accolades. And I've. I've reached a bunch of them. And yeah, there's that. I also love one. One term I love from video games is speedrunning. You heard of that?

No.

Speedrunning is in a video game where you go from the start to the finish as fast as possible. And so you. It's like literally a competition built. Like, imagine like, I don't know any game. It's just someone like sprinting through the map, glitching through, like trying to like finish the game, start to finish, as quick as possible. And you could kind of approach life that way. It's like the Peter Thiel quote. It's like, how can I accomplish my 10 year goal in 6 months? Yeah, like I could have said my 10 year goal was to get a million followers and that people would've been like, that kind of makes sense. Like, yeah, maybe that's kind of long, but like, it's a fair goal. I literally just did all of that in like three months. And it's like. Cause I was speedrunning. I was like, once I figured something worked, I'm going to like, what would other people do? They would keep doing it, improve slowly, like kind of build the team slowly. Right. Instead I'm like, no, let's just like go to the end. Like, let me get a full time staff of animators helping me make stuff. Let me like spend every hour, Let me watch every Pixar documentary I could find. Let me really study what's working. And so I like that term, speed running your goals.

I love it.

Good, right?

I love it.

Yeah, it's like that violent iteration that you're talking about.

Yeah, violent iteration.

I like that.

Yeah.

Violent, not just iteration.

Yeah. Credit to Harmozi there, Alex Hormozi. I like, like, you see like almost all my ideas, like, I'm very big on that with creativity. It's just combining things in new ways. Like, he talks about violent action a lot. He said one thing. I love that he says it's like the rule of 100. If you just do a hundred podcast episodes, a hundred cold emails, a hundred of this, you'll get a lot of progress. But no one does that. No one does. Even just a hundred. I'm all about that.

I think you're in the top 10% of podcasts if you just do five.

Exactly. Yeah.

Which is like.

Yeah. There's like a crazy stat like that. Right.

It's insane.

Yeah.

It's like the barrier to be. The barrier to be great has never been lower. I think that's what David Goggins talks about.

I love that. That's like that. Did you see that? Excuse me? That Dana White quote.

Oh, that's so good.

What'd he say?

So good. I'm gonna misquote it. But he's like, he's like, these kids out there are so lazy these days. They're just at home doing nothing. If you really put your foot on the ground, run over these motherfuckers. Yeah.

If you're a savage, basically.

I love it. Yeah. And I like that he's a cool guy. Yeah, I'm a fan.

Well, Zach, this has been an unreal podcast, man. I think our audience is going to get a ton of value out of it. And hopefully this Reaches a lot of people because I think the concept of obsession is inspiring. And your page is inspiring. Um, maybe just before we hop off here, where can people find you?

Yeah, it's on Instagram at Behavior Hack. E H A V I O R H A C K. We'll spell check that. I don't even know how to spell it. I spell it because some people misspell it because, like, the English version is different. Just behavior act just like, type that in.

When are you getting obsessed? Yeah, you gotta get that handle.

There's one that's like a good one. I forgot if it's obsession or obsessed. Probably should on Twitter. It's Zach Pogrob. Z A C H P O G R O B. I have a newsletter which I like, just started writing again consistently. It's in my link in bio. You could find it on either of those every Saturday where I share, like, all these kind of like all these things I quoted today. Ideas like that, like, where I got the inspiration and. Yeah, that's it.

Love it, ma'.

Am.

Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. Incredible conversation. Glad that we officially connected you with you and got you the. The last day that you're in Austin and just looking forward to everything you go on to do this year and doing this again soon.

Thank you. Likewise. I love what you guys are building so much. Like, I really do. I'm really impressed with it and how seriously you're taking it and how. How fast you, like, you talk about violently iterating. You guys definitely are, and I respect that a lot.

Appreciate it, man.

Thank you, brother.

Means a lot.

Definitely. Sam.