2 Practical Ways to Enjoy Time By Yourself & Overcome Feelings of Loneliness

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I remember one incident where one of my best friends in school, one girl at school, told him I was talking bad about him, which I definitely was not doing that storms in to the field, comes up to me, storm starts punching me in the face. I'm on the floor, I've got bruises all over my eyes. And I remember looking back at that, I almost started to observe human behavior early on. I'd say, where? What is it that that person's going through that's making them behave that way? Rather than asking the questions, why me? I think I started looking at, well, what's happened to them?

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose. I am so pumped that you're here with me right now. I want you to take a moment and just honor yourself. Acknowledge yourself. I want you to keep showing up for yourself, but I want you to thank yourself when you do. And every time you tune into On Purpose, you're appreciating yourself. You're investing in yourself. You're growing yourself now. I interview a lot of people. I love my solo episodes, but every now and again I like to share an interview that someone did with me. I find that when people interview me, I get to share more of myself, you get to learn more about me. And some really fascinating insights come out that wouldn't come out sometimes if I was planning a session myself or scripting a session myself. I find that when I'm being asked questions, I'm connected to my intuition, I'm channeling more, I'm in flow, I'm in the zone. So this is one of those special interviews. It was with Mason and Payman out of Mad Happy, if you know the brand. Love these guys. They did a great interview. I'm excited for you to listen to this one. There's so many insights that came out, like I said, that I'd never thought of before, I hadn't put into words. I really hope you enjoy it.

I can't wait.

Well, thanks for coming on, Jay. We like to start off every episode with a prompt from our journal. Obviously journaling is like such a huge practice with so many mental health benefits. So we always like to start off the show with that, to kind of get us all on the same page. Today's prompt, which Payman will answer first, then you go and I'll close this out is what are you proud of yourself for?

I think for me just I've been trying to use my phone less, especially at night, and I've been doing a little bit better. I would say I'm still not all the way there, but that's one thing I'm proud of myself for. So. Yeah. What about you, Jay?

I'd say that the thing I'm proud of myself for recently is I haven't seen my wife for around four months and I think we're so used to obviously during the pandemic, being together with each other every day. We loved hanging out for like a solid two years, but she's been working in London and I've been in LA and traveling and we haven't been able to find time to see each other. She's coming back in a couple of weeks, which I'm excited to see her after that long, but I'm really proud that I'm proud of both of us for having just communicated really effectively while being apart for that long and not having moments where we argued about silly things. We were able to understand if the other person wasn't available when we were free. There's an eight hour time gap between London and la, so it might be around five months by the time we've seen each other. And I'm really proud that we've continued to feel more in love and I miss her like anything. And I just can't wait to have her back.

Yeah, that's amazing. That's crazy. That's a good answer.

Yeah. For me, I recently started working out for, like, the first time in my life. I think physical activity and exercise has always been kind of hard for me. I think because of my ongoing depression. It's just, like, hard to really, like, motivate. And I went to the doctor for the first time in a while and he said that I should start to put on some muscle. So I've been lifting for the first time and I never felt like that guy or really felt like masculine or strong in that way. And I think it's. It's really given me a lot of confidence and has made me feel a lot happier. And Payman gives me my workout, so. So I'm grateful for him for being my little pseudo trainer, but, yeah, I'm proud of myself for. For keeping that up for a few weeks now.

Yeah, that's.

I love that. I can relate to that too. This was the first year that I really started getting in the gym for. For physical health too, as opposed to. I love playing sports. Yeah, that's pretty much what I've done my whole life. But this was the first year, so I can very much relate to everything you just said.

Well, that's a great way to kick it off. Jay, I'm wondering if you could give us a picture of, like, your childhood and your upbringing. We always like to start there because so much of your early lifehood life and childhood experiences shape your life. So. Curious about your early life?

Yeah. So I was one of two kids. My parents were immigrants. They moved to London. My mom moved from Yemen to London when she was 16. My dad moved from India to London when he married my mom. So probably he was probably in his, like, mid-20s. And I went to a school in my area, which was pretty rough and tough. I was bullied for being one of the only Asian kids at school and being overweight as well when I was growing up. So. Went through a lot of bullying, got beat up a bunch of times. I'm talking about, like, when I was like six, seven years old through. Till about. Probably about, like. Yeah, about 10 years old at elementary school or primary school as we call it. But what I remember from that time is my mom just giving me all the love in the world, working super hard, cooking breakfast, lunch and dinner, dropping us to school, picking us up, helping me with my homework. Just. I've always felt this flood of Love for my mom. And I think that my capacity to love today comes from the fact that I received so much love from her and. And still do till this day. And my dad was more aloof and disconnected from my life. And at the time, it was hard. You know, it was hard when I'd be at a swimming class and I'd look up to see if my dad was in the stands, and he'd be, like, reading his newspaper or, you know, completely uninterested, or, you know, when I was playing rugby for my school, and I'd look to the sidelines, but my. My dad wouldn't show up to the games. And when I was growing up, I think that affected me at the time, and I would think, well, look, everyone else's dad's there, everyone else's parents are there. And actually, as I grew up, I now feel a sense of gratitude for it because it allowed me to do what I wanted to do for myself. And so now, when I look, in hindsight, it's a different experience, but during that time, I think I went through a lot of common things that people go through, whether it's bullying, disconnection. But the thing I remember most from my childhood is my mom's love, for sure.

Yeah. And I'm curious because I actually immigrated to the US When I was six from Italy, and my parents are from Iran. They immigrated to Italy and then to here. And I always talk about just, like, that feeling of feeling different. And even though you weren't an immigrant, I'm sure you felt that and, like, probably internalize that through the bullying. Is that how you're thinking about it growing up? Like, damn, like, why am I different? Like, why is my skin like this? Why is everyone, like, you know, the same? Like, how are you thinking about that at that time?

I don't even know if I had the capacity to ask those questions because I was so young. And so now when I think about it, I almost feel like at that time, I just thought. I didn't even ask, why is my skin? Or why is that? It was just like, why is this happening? Right? Like, in general? Or like. Or like, why am I going through this? And I remember one incident where one of my best friends in school, we were in grade four, so I would have been like, what, like, seven years old or something like that. And I remember that one girl at school told him that I was talking bad about him, which I definitely was not doing that. That's not the kind of person I am. And he had a really short Temper. So he stormed in this. My best friend at school storms into the. To the field, comes up to me, starts punching me in the face. I'm on the floor, I've got bruises all over my eyes. And I remember looking back at that just thinking like, wow. Like, you know, I almost started to observe human behavior early on, I'd say, where I was like, wow, it's so interesting to see how people get triggered. It's so interesting to see how people act out of character when they're in certain scenarios and situations. I thought, how incredible is it that. What is it that that person's going through that's making them behave that way? I think those were the questions I started asking. So rather than asking the questions, why me? Or why am I going through this or what's wrong with me? I think I started looking at, well, what's happened to them, right? Like, what's going on with them that's making them act that way with me? Because I'm just trying to be a good kid. I was teacher's pet, I worked hard, I was well behaved. I followed all the rules up until 14. And so for me at that time in my life, it was more like, well, what happened to them? Like, what did they not have? What structure did they not have? What support do they not have that making them act in that way?

Yeah, I can relate to you with your dynamic with your parents. I also kind of moved around a lot as a kid. My. My biological father had left me and my mother before I was 1 years old. And then she remarried this man who technically my stepdad, but raised me as my dad. And even growing up, I was so close with my mom and she really modeled what it was to show love and care about people and like, how to go about your life. And my dad, who I found out later that he was gay at the time, but, like, was experiencing a lot of rage and like, things that were very confusing to me while he was dealing with his own stuff. And he wasn't that kind of model for me, was a bit more absent, like how you were explaining. And I feel like the way that that's manifested for me in my life has really been to be much more kind of empathetic and sensitive. And like I said at the beginning, during the prompt, right.

I.

Growing up, I never really felt like a man, quote unquote, or I have a problem with anger. I've like, never yelled at anyone in my entire life. Right. All these things that I'm still unpacking because it really was my mom who was modeling the world for me and how to behave. I'm curious for you, just with that dynamic between your mother and your father, how you feel like that kind of manifested into your adult life and like how you grew your personality and way to see the world.

Yeah, that's such a great question and, and thank you for sharing your experience too. I really feel like it was similar where my mom had this big heart. She was highly understanding, very compassionate, very empathetic. And I think I adopted a lot of those traits as well. And because I saw her working hard, like, you know, she was working a job, she was the main breadwinner, she's taking care of me and my younger sister, like she's supporting us. I gained so much empathy and compassion for women mothers, people who are just trying to make everything possible. And I also saw that my mom was quite non judgmental and non critical. And so I think I adopted some of those traits as well, where I looked at the world for what it was. And I didn't try and judge or place my opinion onto other people, but observed why they behaved. They were. I think my mom was highly forgiving, and I think so I developed a great deal of forgiveness and tolerance by, again, like you said, mirroring her behavior. And then of course, there's the natural unlearning of certain parts that don't work as well or that don't fit so beautifully as well. And so I think what I've learned is that you have to go through this journey where at one point in life you take stock of the values that you practice and you have to ask yourself two questions. Where does this value come from? And do I want to keep it? Do I want to make it mine? Because most of our values are adopted from our parents, our teachers, our friends, our family. And so getting to that point of saying, well, what are my values? Do I like them, do I want them, and do I want to keep them in my life? And so I think when I started to make that transition, that's when you start becoming your own person and you start to recognize that you know our parents and we'll do the same when we become parents. And your parents give you what I call gifts and gaps, right? Sometimes your parents give you gifts and they're beautiful. And then some of those gifts have gaps and some gaps don't have any gift. And it's up to you in life to fill the gaps, to repeat the gifts, to make the gifts yours, pass them along. And I think that's what I found most interesting about the journey of life that everything was designed for me to learn something specific. And when I'm able to learn that, that experience now becomes meaningful and a powerful part of my story.

Yeah, it seems like you were pretty in tune with, like, yourself and your emotions, especially as a child. And I'm curious, like, as you got older, Right. Like, mental health is not something you think about when you're 6, but you said, like, when you're 14, and I think you started, like, misbehaving in class. And was that, like, the first time that you, like, consciously remember, like, going through a challenging time in your life? And can you paint that picture for us and then how that led to college and beyond that?

Well, I think I had this model of life where I'm like, I've been a teacher's pet. I've ticked every box. I've worked hard at school, but I'm still bullied. I still deal with racism, and teachers are still picking on me or taking shots at me, and it doesn't feel fair. And so it was almost like, I've been good, and that hasn't got me anywhere. So let me be mischievous and silly and playful and rebellious and see if that goes anywhere. And so I think I was chasing a thrill, but I didn't realize that the greatest thrill of life was purpose. I didn't know that at 14. And so at 14, thrill came from being the class clown. It came from being the class rebel. It came from being involved in the wrong circles. It came from going against what your parents say. It came from doing the opposite of what was the right thing to do. And so I think that came from a sense of seeking purpose without me knowing. Yeah. And I would say that at that time, I wasn't being myself. I was now playing up to be, like, the people that I thought were cool or that I thought were the right people to imitate or the people that were trending or the people that had influence or clout. And so you spend your whole teens kind of trying to mirror that person. I almost feel like 0 to 10, you end up trying to be the person your parents want to be. And 10 to 20, you try and be the person that your friends want you to be. And then 20 to 30, you realize you don't want to be either of those things. And then hopefully, in your 30s, you start being the person you want to be.

Right.

It's kind of like that's. That's. I mean, I'm stereotyping and simplifying, but I feel like that's been the journey that I've been on, at least. And I realized that you have to go on that journey in that way because you learn valuable lessons at each step. So for me, those teens were very much me trying to be like people that I thought were cool or respected and recognizing that. That. That didn't quite have it either.

Yeah, I had a similar experience where I was really good at school. Even when I moved here, I didn't speak English, but I learned it quickly and I was really good in school. And I think I was bored with that in some ways. And, like, we're still trying to, like, connect with. With other people. So I was doing, like, the class clown things too, all the way through, like, eighth grade. And it was funny because it. The purpose thing you just brought up, I think I could really relate with that because, like, I got purpose from, like, doing well in school and from, like, making jokes and, like, people thinking I was funny and, like, more the external validation, which I think is, like, pretty normal. Early on. I'm curious. And then, like, I also had a similar experience where I went to undergrad business school. I'm curious, like, how you made that decision and then eventually how that led to you, like, going on that journey to becoming a monk. Because obviously those two things seem very opposite.

Yeah, I think I did what every sane person does after going to undergrad business school, which is becoming a monk. I'll explain it. I'll track back. To be honest, when I was in my teens, the subjects that resonated with me most were art, design, and philosophy. Like, that's what I fell in love with. And so I would spend more time at art class and in the studio, and I would spend more time on online, on Photoshop, and, you know, I'd constantly be working on art. It's what I fell in love with and what I was attracted to. But then there was still that voice inside my head that said, art is not a career. Right. Design is not a career. Philosophy is not a career. And because I'd had that ingrained so deeply within me, I was like, well, then I should go get a degree that has a career behind it. I would say, in my teens, I didn't know it was possible to be anything else apart from a doctor, a lawyer, or a business person. Like, I almost didn't know. As silly as it sounds, I just wasn't aware that there were that many careers beyond a few set careers that had been laid out by friends, family members, and people around me. And So I went there honestly, just because I thought it would line up a safe career opportunity. Now, when I went there, I still realized that there were things I was more interested in. So I got deep into behavioral science, and I started doing electives in arts and antiques markets. And, like, all of my dissertations and thesis were all about fascinating subject matters, even though I was there. But I think the most important thing that happened is I would go and hear people speak. And this is before podcasts, right? This is before podcasts. It's before YouTube. This is when you actually had to go to physical spaces to hear people speak. And it was before Ted was big. Ted was obviously around. It just wasn't a big deal at the time. And so I would go to my university to hear people speak, or I would go into the city to hear people speak. And I was invited to hear a monk speak by some of my friends that had been getting involved in meditation and mindfulness. This is back in 2006, so very early days. And I was just like, what am I going to learn from a monk? Like, I was super skeptical, super cynical. Didn't know what monks did, didn't know what value monks could add. But I made my friends promise that we'd go to a bar afterwards. Like, that was my state of consciousness at the time.

Deal.

Yeah, my friends were highly persuasive, so they agreed. So we went to this event. I'm thinking, I'm just gonna be looking at the clock, trying to get out of this space. And the opposite happened, where I was staring at this monk as if he was the most beautiful woman in the world. Like, that's how fixated I was. And he was wearing robes. He would. You know, he was from India.

He.

You know, it wasn't that there was anything externally attractive about him. It was just that it almost felt like I'd met someone who had the frequency and energy that I didn't even know I was looking for. And this is something that I really believe in, that not everyone needs to meet a monk. But I do believe today that we rarely meet people of different frequency and different energy. We follow the same people. We watch the same people. We hear from the same people. The media covers the same people. And we could hear deeper stories about those same people, but we don't often hear those. So I'm not saying that the same people are the issue. You could hear deeper journeys and deeper elements of their background and walks of life, or we need to be exposed to new minds and new thinkers and people that we don't recognize because that's what gives you the opportunity to go, oh, there's something out there that I know nothing about, but I'm attracted to. And that's how I felt when I met a monk. If you asked me, if anyone ever said to me, jay, you're probably going to become a monk for three years of your life, I probably would have thrown my beer bottle at them, right? Like, that would have been like, you know, I would have laughed. I would have thrown at them. I don't want to hurt them. I would have laughed. It would have been. It would have been ridiculous is what I mean. It would have been, you know, preposterous to imagine that that would be a path I would take. But I got so attracted to him. And then during my time at college, I was interning at investment banks and consulting companies, and I was going to spend time at the monastery in India. And so I did my first split test, or a B test. And I realized when I graduated that the life of living as a monk was far more fulfilling than the life of working in the city. So I turned down my corporate job offers and I went and lived as a monk. And it was because of two things. Two things were important to me when I chose to become a monk. The first is I wanted to understand how I could purify my ego, master my mind, and live a life where I could actually manage my emotions. And I saw that monks could do that, and I wanted to learn to do that. I. I felt that that would be one of the most valuable skills for myself and my experience of life. And the second thing, and the reason I did it, is because monks were serving, they were helping others, they were contributing to society. And I thought to myself, that seems like a worthy cause. That's what I want to do with my life. So those were the two reasons that took me in that direction.

Yeah, I think that the note of being of service is something that I think think about a lot. Being in sobriety and recovery, obviously, that's a huge part of the program. And I think where I've found myself feeling the most fulfilled and the most connected and really the most myself. And I think a lot of what we try and do at Madhappy, too, is obviously giving back and educating people and sharing our own experiences to inspire other people to speak up. And I think being of service is truly the life that I want to lead when I really think about what makes me happy. And I was wondering if you could just explain kind of what that monk was saying. That day a little bit. And then almost what life as a monk kind of looks like. I think when I think of a monk, you know, I think of just kind of like a Buddha on a hill, like, just like not talking all day and like that might be what a lot of people think of it as well. And what, what was it actually like? And what were those first things that you were hearing from him that were really kind of opening your mind?

Yeah, he was saying that the greatest thing that a human can do is, is to use their gifts in the service of others. That you use this life, this body, this mind, this heart that you have in order to improve the lives of others. And you can only do that when you learn to purify yourself of ego, of arrogance, of pride, of elements in your life that block you, of envy, of illusion, of these things that block you from serving people with a full heart. And that really deeply resonated with me because I could see people who are well intentioned but then their ego got the better of them. Or I could see people who wanted to do good in the world, but then they couldn't take care of themselves at the same time. And so those were some of the things that resonated with me. And obviously I had to spend more time with him. And there are different monk paths. So what you just said about a particular monk path, there are those paths. I chose this particular path because it was about self and service. There are a lot of paths where it is just about being silent. So our mornings would be silent and our days would be service. But a lot of parts will be fully silent or fully service. And I chose this path because I felt that both were important tracks in our life. And so we'd wake up at 4am every day and morning meditations collectively would be 4:30 to 5, then 5 to 7 would be individual meditation. Then 7 till about 8, 8:30 would be a class on the spiritual literatures. And then 8:30 would be breakfast. And then from like 9:30 onward, it would be a mix of daily chores. Going out and building sustainable villages, going and helping villagers with their daily tasks. It could be going out and feeding the homeless or children at school. So the day would be spent being with society and being present with people who needed that support. And of course there were elements where we would go on pilgrimage and visit these 5,000 year old temples and go to these incredible places across India that haven't been visited or seen for thousands of years. Or it's this beautiful thing that I read about recently which Which I'm encouraging more people to experience. Scientists call it the awe effect. And awe is something we all get to experience. We experience it when we see a beautiful scenery or you're in nature or like I'm saying, when you visit a 5,000 year old temple. And awe is defined as when you feel small but connected to something bigger at the same time. So you feel really insignificant. You get to experience humility but connectivity at the same time. And I got to experience a lot of that as a monk, where you felt so tiny, but you felt so big and powerful and capable. And I think that that juxtaposition of ideology is what we're all searching for. We don't want to be big on our own, alone on a mountaintop. No one wants that. No one who has achieved success is happy being lonely at the top.

Yeah.

And at the same time, no one wants to be depressed and alone and left with nothing and feel like they have nothing to offer the world. So I think if we can all experience or not just through external visuals, but through the cultivation of that inner space of I'm really tiny, but I'm a part of something really big, which makes me really significant and insignificant all at the same time. I think that's just a really beautiful place to live. And I'd say that that's one of the key things I learned during that time from an internal standpoint.

Yeah. As soon as you said that, I thought about the first time that I went to Yosemite and just like standing in that valley and it was such a significant awe effect of I feel so small but so connected. And I find myself with nature, especially because it's so kind of mysterious and there's no answer for how this got here or what it means or any, any of that. And I feel like that's where I really feel the awe effect so strongly. When there's not a clear answer. I think that those are the most beautiful parts of life to me where I can feel the most connected. Where there's not like there's no right or wrong, there's no winning, it's just, it can't be explained. And like that's where the most kind of beauty I find is for me.

Yeah, I mean, what, you just sparked something for me. I mean we are nature and I don't think we observe nature enough. I think we observe machines more than we observe nature. And so we are starting to think like machines, I. E. Productivity goals, targets, list checks, systems, processes. But we are nature. And if you look at a Tree. A tree has all different branches going off in different directions. It has roots, getting nutrients. It sometimes is giving out fruits and flowers. Sometimes it's sh. Shedding. And it doesn't do that. Like, a tree is not confused in autumn or fall going, why are my leaves falling? The tree does that naturally. But if we go through a phase in our life where we feel like we're shedding or things are transitioning, we get scared because machines don't change. Right. This microphone looks the same in January and it looks the same in December, but nature doesn't look the same in January and December. And if we're nature, then that's more of what we're going to be like. But we're trying to be like this microphone. We're like, I don't want to change. I just want to remain the same the whole time. And so I think there's so much more than even or to be gained from nature, where it's like, we are nature. If we observe nature deeply, we can actually flow and live life much more naturally and simply than being attracted and attached to machines and machinery.

Yeah, you talk about, you know, the power of being able to spend time alone. I think it's like, something that's, like, a lot harder. And I even. I talk about this a lot. Like, even when I'm alone, I'm, like, listening to a podcast or, like, doing something where it's like, you're not actually alone, just with your thoughts. And, like, the challenge for me of just, like, driving home, not playing music or not, you know, it's always, like, so hard for me, and I try to do it every once in a while to. Just because I know it's good for me. And it always feels good when I get to my final destination because I obviously thought about a lot of things that wouldn't have come up in my own head without giving myself that space. So I'm curious about your time as a monk, because it seems like the morning time was spent, like, being more by yourself, even if you're surrounded by others. And then the second part of your day was like, being around others and, like, in service. So I'm curious, like, what you began to think of that and the importance of spending time alone in that process.

Yeah, I think that's really fair, what you've said. We've. We've made loneliness and being alone the enemy since we were young. If you went to school and you didn't have someone to sit next to, you were called the loner. Right. Or if you threw a birthday party and not many people showed up, you were considered unpopular. Even though today as adults, if we had five people show up to our birthday, we'd be happy because we realized that that's probably the amount of people that actually know us. If you get invited to a wedding and you don't have a plus one, it's like, well, you didn't bring a plus one. You didn't want to bring someone, right? Even now, when I haven't seen my wife for a few months and I go somewhere, the number one question I get asked is, where's your wife? Right? It's. It's so. It's so abnormal for people to see people alone. And there's an amazing author called Paul Tillich who writes that there are two words in the English language for being alone, but we only use one of them. So it's loneliness. And he says there's another word, and it's called solitude. And when we were monks, we were taught to practice solitude, not loneliness or being alone. And so Paul Tillich writes that loneliness is when you feel weak on your own, and solitude is when you feel strength when you're by yourself We've been.

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Hey everyone, Jay here.

And as much as you listen to.

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What I find really fascinating about solitude is that it's a time in your life where you get to make sense of your own thoughts, your own feelings and your own emotions. Most of the time we're using other People as sounding boards for our thoughts, our emotions, and our feelings. Now, that is healthy in therapy, and that is healthy in coaching. That is healthy in conversations like this. But we also need time and space to do that with ourselves, to refresh, to recalibrate, to re synchronize with ourselves. That's what solitude allows you space to do. Solitude also allows you to hear your inner voice. If you're only always listening to music or TV or shows, that voice becomes your voice or that noise becomes your voice, and you lose the ability to check in with yourself and go, how does that feel? For me, so often when I'm in solitude and when we were monks, it was the idea of, could I sit with a thought and genuinely discover how I feel about it at the core, regardless of how everyone else feels about it? And you can only do that in stillness and silence. You can't do that when you're constantly surrounded by lots of people. And so we've never been trained to do that. We've been made to believe that you'll be happier, you'll be more social when you're around people, which is true. But what I find is that if I want to make my mind up about something, I find it. You're much more likely to hear your inner voice and know where to be guided by learning that practice. I'd say everyone has that loud voice in their head when they're young, and we've drowned it out or pushed it aside so much that it's got quieter and quieter and quieter. When someone says, jay, I don't hear that voice. I don't hear myself. It's because it was so loud when we were young, when it was like, don't do that, do that. Try this. Don't hang out with that person. Do this. You don't need to do that. We just went, no, no, no, no, no. I'm going to do this because I think it's the right thing, or I think it's cool, or I think it's the thing I'm meant to do? For me, solitude is about building that habit of asking yourself, how do I feel about this? What's important to me? What's meaningful to me? What do I truly want to pursue without the noise, without anyone else's voice or opinion.

Yeah. For me and P, I'm curious how you feel about this. Like, I feel like as I've gotten older and we've grown this business, and I've gotten into a relationship and I have five brothers and sisters, like, anytime I'm Expressing myself or making a decision or thinking it's almost impossible for me not to consider these other people. Right. Or, like, well, how's this going to make my girlfriend feel then? What are my business partners going to think of me then? Like, what about my sibling? And just like, all that. And I find it really difficult as I get older and there's more kind of stakes and pressure of life to be able to really be selfish in that way and, like, make a decision just for myself and not really worry about anybody else because it could potentially have such a direct impact on so many others, you know?

Well, I want to respond to that because I think that's a healthy trait that you have, and I wouldn't discourage that. So to give a nuance to what I said, I think it's less about even making the decision, but it's about being aware of what it is that you want and need.

Yeah.

And then being able to process the discussion on the outer layers of who else is involved, rather than what we do is we usually ignore or are completely unaware of what we need.

Yeah. And.

And then we. We just avoid it. Right. So I. I agree with you. I think what you're sharing, I actually find beautiful and wonderful. I think it makes someone a wonderful human when they're aware of other people's needs and other people's concerns and. And interests. But I think you can't be fully yourself in that if we're not aware of the first thing, is what I meant. So thank you for sharing that, because that helps me contextualize a little more. Stephen, sorry. I wanted to hear from you as well.

Yeah, go ahead, B.

It's a good thing you just brought up. I. You know, I started going to therapy last January, which I always talk about on the show, and it's been very informative for me because my therapist is, like, the science side and, like, the spiritual side, which I found amazing. And, you know, he's like a. A big meditator. Talks a lot about the energy stuff that you brought up earlier, Jay. And. And I think for me, when Mason just brought it up, I was thinking, oh, wow, like, I only think in the way of, like, me and everyone else versus, like, just me first, which I think, like, could be a very valuable skill to develop. And just see, like, how often that is the same decision I would have made otherwise versus not, you know, and, like, I could still keep going with that decision. That's more the middle ground for now. But I think the awareness piece, like you said, Jay, is the most Important.

Part, we just think of life as like, yes and no blood, black and white, this or that. Right. It's very binary. So it's like I either focus on myself or I focus on everyone else. And actually life's more like that logo behind you where it's circles. And so you have you, then you have your family, then you have your friends, then you have your community, and then you have your podcast audience and then you have the wider world and life's more like that. So life isn't either. Or it's almost like starting from this central point and then cascading and emanating outwards. Right. And so I think the challenge is we've been brought up to believe that it's binary.

Yeah.

And. And it's not binary. It's almost like concentric circles that keep expanding out and that energy that's created within is, Is going to move outwards.

Yeah. I'm curious, like, I know that after a few years you decided to leave the monastery re. Enter society. And at the time, like, how are you thinking about one, how did you make that decision? But to how are you thinking about, like, what your life, you know, what was in store for your life? Because I imagine before, you know, you had a very different view of like, success and like happiness and life. So how did you come to that decision?

Yeah, I think leaving was, I've always described it as one of the hardest decisions of my life because, you know, when I became a monk, it wasn't this celebratory thing. It was like, you know, most my extended family were like, you're never going to make money again. You're never going to get a job again. You're never gonna, no one's ever gonna date you again. Like, you're committing career suicide. Like you've been brainwashed. Like, you're wasting away your parents hard work, you're wasting away your education. Like, it wasn't. I didn't become a monk under like happy circumstances. I became a monk against the grain. I had friends who didn't understand my decision and didn't want to talk to me anymore because they didn't understand what I was trying to do. They were just like, well, you've changed. And, you know, now we can't talk about the same thing, so we have nothing to talk about. So I lost friends from that decision. And so when I left, I was like, was everyone right? And the decision I left for was actually that spending time as a monk gave me so much self awareness that I realized I wasn't meant to be a monk, that I wanted to share what I learned, that I wanted to pass it on, that I wanted to speak about it in lots of interesting, exciting ways. I wanted to pair it up with science because I loved behavioral science growing up. And so I had all these ideas of how I could help people who came from the same backgrounds and walks of life that I did. And I recognized, I was like, that desire wasn't a monk desire in terms of the journey of a monk. And so that's like one of the hardest things where you feel like you left everything to get married to the love of your life. That is the path of being a monk. And now you go, oh, wait a minute, but that doesn't make me a monk. I might need to break up or get divorced. And that's what it felt like. It felt like a divorce. And I remember my teacher saying to me as well that they felt I could share what I'd learned better if I moved on. And that was a really stressful, pressurized situation because I now move back London to my parents home aged 26 and I was in $25,000 worth of debt, 18,000 pounds roughly at the time. I hadn't had a job for that amount of time, so I had no work experience. All my friends were like getting mortgages, you know, dating and serious relationships or growing. They were doing well in their careers, they were getting promoted, and I'm coming back with nothing to offer. Then I applied to 40 companies and get rejected by every single one of them before an interview because, surprise, surprise, no one wants to hire a former monk, right? They're like, what are your, what are your transferable skills? Like sitting still and being silent. We don't need that. So I'm almost like, oh my gosh, was everyone right? Everyone was right. I did waste my life. I did mess up, you know, and so it was a very. And again, I didn't know who the Prime Minister of England was. I didn't know who won the World cup. And, you know, I hadn't listened to music or a TV show. Like, I didn't know how to do small talk anymore. Imagine, imagine you haven't done small talk for three years. Like you literally get how to have a conversation because so I was, I felt really out of touch. And on top of that, my health had taken a hit because as a monk I'd been like practicing all sorts of fasts and crazy meditations and my health was quite depleted. So I was also low on, you know, from a physical point. Of view. And we all know that that can massively impact you from a chronic fatigue point of view and even depression. And so I was in. In quite a difficult space. And so leaving was. Yeah, leaving was one of the most toughest things I've ever done. And it's only all in you. Like, it was all for me, but yeah, it wasn't easy at all.

Yeah. And then after that, I guess what was the moment where you kind of got back on the horse, so to speak, or like, kind of had your first big break of realizing, all right, there's, there's something here. And I can kind of take what I've learned and really build something out of this.

So it took 10 months when I left to get a job, right? It took 10 months of applying, being unemployed, figuring it out, living in my parents home. It took 10 months to get a job. And those 10 months included the first month. I just didn't do anything at all. And then the next nine months, I was waking up and meditating again, practicing everything I learned as a monk, going to the library, reading books about business, studying philosophy again, trying to just get back into the world, right? And I remember 10 months later, I went to this, I got this job finally. I went to this networking event at the beginning of the job. And I remember the activity was pizza making. So it was like pizza making groups so you can network and connect. And I was like, what am I doing here? Like, it was the biggest culture. I was like, what am I doing? Like, I didn't know what to wear. I was like, is this too cat? There was like, you know, it was like business casual. And I almost, I was like, oh, my gosh, what do I wear? Like, what's in today, what's not? And that was the moment when I started that job. I realized something really important. I realized that I wasn't five years behind everyone. I realized that I'd learned lessons that put me ahead. And when I say ahead, I don't mean ahead of others. I meant ahead in my own understanding. And so even though I was 26 and everyone who started that job was 21, I was like, no, the lessons I learned as a monk are going to be my, my armor. They're going to be my strength. So now let me recognize how to apply this. So I've always realized that my life became good. That moment changed when I started applying everything I'd learned rather than trying to push it away.

And I think you talk about this idea of like conscious capitalism, which I think in many ways like very much is aligned with what we're doing because like we always say, like we're, we're a business and we hope through having a successful one, we can make a big impact in the world. We could spread awareness, raise money for mental health, all of those sorts of amazing things. I'm curious how you came to that realization. Was that sort of like the bridging of like your earlier interests? How did you come to that?

Yeah, that's a really great question. I'm glad we're talking about it because I think spirituality and money are often uncomfortable conversations for people to have. And I would say it was an uncomfortable situation for me because when I started what I was doing, I honestly started with the intention of I just want to help people, I just want to serve. I'm just going to create stuff that's going to improve people's lives. And as I started to do that, I realized that if I wasn't able to create a business or a venture, I couldn't create structures to scale, amplify, grow both the message or a team of people that also get to live their purpose. So today, when I've been able to connect and synchronize those two worlds of spirituality and business or conscious capitalism, as you said, you start recognizing that, oh, actually I can do more good with money and use money for more good. That includes living a life for myself that allows me to live in abundance, creating jobs and opportunities for other team members who now get to live in a purpose led organization. Like everyone who works with me on my team loves what we do. They believe in mental health, they believe in conscious business. They want to create opportunities and products and businesses and content to help people. So now you've got all those people who are helping, right? And then on top of that, everyone else who gets to be impacted. So for me, I recognize that if I lived in a world where I didn't connect spirituality in business or impact in business, then what would end up happening is I would have enough for me, but then I wouldn't be able to scale, grow or make a difference in the world to the extent that I wanted to. And so I had to rewire my relationship with money because I grew up in a family where we always had just enough. So I grew up plenty of days in my life, months, years, having $0 $0 in my bank account, like consistently. And I always had just enough. And when I started to realize that just enough is fine for you, but what about all the people you want to serve and create opportunities for it's been fun figuring it out, and I'm still figuring it out, and I think you have to be, you know, careful with it. But, you know, last year, this was one of my favorite things. Last year, my wife and I read a statistic that, you know, one person was, I think, dying from COVID every five minutes in India. It was pretty bad. And we decided to organize a fundraiser within 24 to 48 hours with all of our friends and community and, you know, amazing people that we had that. That supported it. And, you know, we had, like, everyone, like, you know, Shawn Mendes got involved and Ellen got involved, and. And then we led this online fundraiser, and our audience delivered, and we've raised, like, across 24 hours, literally 24 to 48 hours. We raised $5 million, and that event cost, like, 50 to 60k to put on online production, all that kind of stuff. And I was just thinking, like, we would never have been able to do that. And I just felt so grateful. I mean, that was nothing. I mean, you know, India had far more challenges than $5 million could solve, but I just felt grateful that that made me feel like this is what we were able to do because of everything else that existed.

Yeah, I think this, like, notion of, like, money can actually do good. I think people are just, like, not as open to it right now when. And that's fair. I think everyone has their own relationship with it, but I think some of the companies who have made the biggest differences, like a Patagonia, for example, like, they've done very well as a business to be able to give back more and more every year to, you know, make the planet a better place to live for everyone. And so I think it definitely is possible, and it seems like you're doing a great job of it, so congrats.

Well, no, I think I'm trying. I'm learning, I'm growing. I'm trying to figure it out. And it's definitely my intention. Like, intention and action is there. Like, it's what we believe in. It's what we want to do. We've worked very closely with Pencils of Promise, which build schools across the world. Right. To provide education. I've worked with them consistently over the last few years, and we've provided education for thousands of children across the world. Like, stuff like that gets me so excited. I'm like, yes, because of our platform, because of our. This is what we get to do. Right. So it's almost like you have to do all these things that you have to do to get to do what you want to do. And I think we live in a world where we only want to do what we want to do, and it often isn't that easy. Often you like. You know, I interviewed Matt Damon recently on the podcast, on my podcast on purpose, and he's been directing all of his profile and energy and passion to providing clean water and access to water and sanitized water to people across the world. Like, that's what he's directing his brand, his fame, his popularity to. And I think it's incredible, right, to see that. So there's a lot of people that I admire in this space.

One more question I had going back to the ego thing. I know you said that was one of kind of the first principles that really drew you to the monk during that conversation. Obviously, you can't explain it in a short amount of time, and it takes a lot of work. But what are sort of the practices and the steps to really being able to work on quieting your ego and kind of diminishing that in a way, to be more of service and live a life more for others? Because I feel like that's a real struggle for me. And obviously it sounds very easy and peaceful to say, but in practice, what are some of the tangible steps that that actually looks like?

Well, I think what I might say might, or at least the step one might sound kind of counterintuitive. But ego is fed. The ego is fueled by validation and the chasing of validation and clout and external people things making us feel good about ourselves.

Right.

And to really, the first step to taming the ego is self. Validation is learning to validate the things you love about yourself, appreciate about yourself, acknowledging your own weaknesses, acknowledging things that you're working on. The antidote to ego is honesty, because the ego lives in a lie and an amplified version of self, whereas true living is in living an honest life of these are my weaknesses. These are my strengths. These are my flaws, these are my skills. And I think we're scared. We actually think ego means I don't even think I have skills. I don't even think I have anything to offer. And that's actually not true. The truth is saying I do have these skills, and I also have these challenges. I do have these strengths, and I also have these weaknesses. That's how you start breaking down the ego. Because what's really tricky about the ego is it can make you feel like the best of the best. It can make you feel like I'm the best in the world, and it can do the opposite it can make you feel like you're the worst in the world. It's just inverted ego. And so. And neither of those are true. You are not the best in the world. Right. Me included. All of us. And you're not the worst in the world either, because no one's the best of the worst. We're all just humans with complex emotions. And so acknowledging and embracing your complexity and the juxtaposition of things that you end up becoming is the first step in order to purify your ego because you're honestly embracing and accepting yourself.

Yeah. My last question that Mason will ask, the two questions we ask everyone, but if you know, you said, you know, 0 to 10, 10 to 20, 20 to 30. Thinking now back to your 30 year old self. Like one bit of advice that you would give yourself if you could go back, what would it be?

If I could go back to what age?

To your 30 year old self.

Okay, so I'm 34 right now, so.

I guess not that. I guess that's not that much time. But still.

Yeah, no, four years ago. I feel like, I think it's always been trust your inner voice. Like trust your intuition, you know, trust your gut. Don't get distracted by shiny things, new things, other people's opinions, expectations, obligations. Yeah, just, just, you know, trust. Trust what you always wanted to do.

It's always good advice.

P. What would be your advice to your 20 year old self?

Yeah, I mean, I think it was pretty, pretty dead on. Jay, when you said earlier, just like 0 to 10, it's like more parents. 10 to 20 is more friends. I think when I was 20 was when I was first starting to like, begin to think for myself and less about friends. I always think like the first few years of high school and the first few years of college, I was still getting acclimated. So it was more just like doing things because, like, it made me fit in more. And I think towards the end of college I was just starting to like, branch out on my own more. And I've done more of that each year. So I would just again, tell myself to like, don't be afraid to start that earlier. I think, like, I thought I had to follow this path. I went into banking before we started this also. And a lot of that was just following a path instead of like understanding what I wanted to do for myself. And I think I've. I understand that more, more and more each year now. So I feel good about that now at 28 and hopefully I can keep that up.

Good. All right, Jay. Our final two questions. The first is if you could nominate anyone to come on the Mad Happy podcast who's been a big inspiration for you or who you feel like has a really powerful mental health story or journey, whether you know them or not.

Would it be, I think, what Simone Biles did. I. I don't know her, but I thought what she did in sport last year was pretty incredible. And Naomi Osaka as well. Both of them, like, for what they did in terms of sports and performance and mental health. Again, don't know. Don't know either of them, but I think they would be.

Totally agree. Yeah, definitely. 2. Two leaders in the space that are. That are huge inspirations for us. And, and, and finally, Jay, what makes you mad happy?

I'm going to give an answer that hopefully is less predictable. Football. Soccer. I'm a massive Manchester United fan. Playing soccer, playing FIFA, being on a soccer field, watching a game of soccer, like anything soccer related, makes me mad happy.

Did you catch that Madrid comeback the other day?

I did, I did. I did. Watch the highlights. I didn't watch the game.

That was insane.

Yeah, that's the kind of. I love those moments. I love those moments of comebacks and underdogs.

Yeah, you talk about an offect, like, being in that crowd. That's an offect right there.

Totally. That's mad happy for me.

Well, Jay, thank you so much. We really, really appreciate you coming on. I know that our audience will love this one. We love it. And thank you for everything you do. We listen to a lot of the podcast episodes, so keep it all up and hopefully next time we'll do it in person.

Definitely. I'd love to meet you both in person. Congrats on everything you're doing with the brand and I'm so grateful to have been on. Thank you to your amazing community who's listened to today, and I really look forward to hanging out more, man. Thank you so much to both of you and congrats on everything you're doing.

Thank you. Likewise.

Thank you, everyone.

Thanks, guys. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for listening to my conversation with the guys at Mad Happy. I really hope you enjoyed it and just thank you so much for all the reviews that are coming in. I hope you saw me posting a ton of them to my store stories on Instagram. And if you don't already, follow us on TikTok as well. Make sure you do, because we're posting a lot of great clips from the video episodes on TikTok. Thanks so much, everyone. Success starts with your drive and American Public University is here to fuel it. With affordable tuition and over 200 flexible online programs, APU helps you gain the skills and confidence to move forward. Whether you're changing careers, starting fresh, or pursuing a lifelong passion. Our programs are designed for people who never stop. You bring the fire. APU will fuel the journey. Learn more at apu Apus. Edu.

Hey, it's Joel and Matt from from how to Money if your New Year's resolution is to finally get your finances in shape, we've got your back prices, they're still high, and the economy is all over the place. But 2026 is the year for you to get intentional and make real progress. That's right. Yeah. Each week we break down what's happening with your money, the most important issues to focus on, and the small moves that make a big difference. Kick off the year with confidence. Listen to how to money on the iHeartRadio app, how Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanka Walley. And I'm Hari Kundabolu.

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