3 Crucial Methods to Increase Work Productivity & How to Unlock Individual Success Through Collaboration

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Safety is the foundation of everything and people think that safety is about like swaddling people in cotton and making them feel comfortable, when actually it's all about voice.

Hey everyone, I'm so excited because we're going to be adding a really special offering onto the back of my solo episodes on Fridays. The Daily J is a daily series on calm and it's meant to inspire you while outlining tools and techniques to live a more mindful, stress free life. We dive into a range of topics and the best part is each episode is only seven minutes long so you can incorporate it into your schedule no matter how busy you are. As a dedicated part of the on purpose community, I wanted to do something special for you this year, so I'll be playing a handpicked Daily J during each of my Friday podcasts. This week we're discussing your relationship with work and how to be more present, productive and purposeful. Of course, if you want to listen to the Daily J every day, you can subscribe to Calm, so go to calm.com jay for 40% off your membership today welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world where we dive into your physical, mental, emotional, financial health. And I know that wellbeing is a big priority for all of you and the well being of the people you work with, the well being of the people that work for you. If you have a team or a company or you're an entrepreneur or even your family that you work together with, culture is at the heart of that and how we think about the people that we interact with daily, how we understand how to give them feedback, how to connect with them, how to communicate with them more effectively. I mean if the quality of our life, which we know from Harvard's 75 year study that the quality of our life is based on the quality of our relationships, then finding great culture in our relationships is such a key need. I was exposed to the fascinating cultures of monks lives when I lived as a monk for three years and I gained so much from that culture that I adopted and I brought into my work. But recently I came across a book and I'm always on the lookout for that next book that's going to shift my perspective, change my mind. And I'm a voracious reader. I read a ton. I'm always picking up new books at the airport, at bookstores. My friends are like Jay, like when do you get all the time? I'm like trust me, I just need to dive in and learn what I can and take what I can. And this book, I cannot speak more highly of it because it has been so clarifying. It has been so beautifully simplifying of what it means to build culture, build teams, communicate effectively, give feedback effectively. And so today's guest is the author of my current Facebook favorite book which is called the Culture Code. He's the New York Times best selling author and this book was named best Business book of the year by Bloomberg, BookPal and Business Insider. His other books include the Talent Code which I haven't read yet, which I'm very excited to read, the Little Book of Talent, the Secret Race, Lance Armstrong's War and Hardball A Season in the Projects. He has served as an advisor to many high performing organizations including including the Navy Seals, Microsoft, Google and the Cleveland Guardians. His new book is called the culture playbook 60 highly effective actions to Help youp Group Succeed. It's the ultimate handbook for fostering and cultivating a streams strong culture and we're gonna be using that book. Welcome to the show, Daniel Coyle. Daniel, thank you so much for doing this.

Thanks for having me, Jay. It's really fun to be with you.

Yeah. And I really appreciated it. I know I was talking about you everywhere. I literally was talking about you on my YouTube channel. I was talking about you on my Instagram. And so when your team reached out and they said, hey, does Jay want to speak to Daniel? I was like, I mean, I don't think there's anyone I want to speak to more right now. So today is basically my opportunity to, for free, which you usually get paid a lot for, for free, ask you questions about your expertise that I can apply inside my company and organization with, with my team members. And if you're in the audience right now and you're like, jay, I don't have a company. I'm not an entrepreneur. You know, I don't own my own business. Everything that we talk about will be applicable to you, whether it's within your organization, within your company. It even applies, in my opinion, to your family. It genuinely applies to your friends and the people that you connect with. So what I'm learning from Daniel and his book is not just the culture code for businesses, but it's a culture code for life. And I. I want you to see it that way as well. So would you agree with that, Daniel? I wanted to ask you that question straight off the bat. Like, I've been using your advice in my personal life as much as my professional life.

I appreciate that. No, I have, too. Actually. Writing the book was not any different. We go into it with these ideas about what culture is and how culture is built. Normally, think culture is sort of like the personality of a group. Like, it's just sort of who they are. Like, Disney is Disney, and your culture of your group is you. And when you sort of look beneath that, what you find is that it's much more like a sport. It's much more like a skill. It's much more like these sort of certain actions. It's not about who you are. It's about what you do. It's about your behaviors. And there's this, like, language of behaviors that helps people connect, that helps people open up, that helps people figure out where they want to go together. And it does feel kind of like a discovery. I have to say. I still feel like I'm, like, I'm discovering new things about this, even after having written about it for so long, long ago.

I love that. Let's. Let's define culture for anyone who's listening. And like you said, like, today we think of culture like music or fashion, and we think of culturally relevant Things. But we also think about culture as you do talk about, as within a team, within a company, within a family, within an organization. What are the key tenets that define a culture? And please define culture for us as well as that.

It's so interesting. You feel a culture when you walk into a space with people, right? You walk into a locker room, you walk into a kitchen of a restaurant, you walk into a school, and you can feel it. And what are you feeling there? What is that? What is that made of? I would define culture as a set of living relationships moving toward a goal together. And the visual I want you to picture is almost like a flock of birds moving through the sky. Like, they're connected. They're connected. They're going around obstacles, and they're moving somewhere together. And for that to happen, there have to be these three behaviors happening. There has to be behavior of connection. Like, we're in. Right? We're not spinning off and taking off. We're staying together. We're. We're sharing information so we can be kind of aware of each other, and we're open and transparent about that. And we're also know where we're headed. We, like, have something in the windshield that says, this is where we're headed. This is where we're not headed. So culture is not like this sort of just this vibe. We always talk about chemistry and magic of groups, right? It feels like magic when we have it. Like, if you were to right now think about the best, most cohesive group you've ever been a part of, like, you could close your eyes and you would get a feeling like that, what it feels like to be with them. And those are like the peak experiences in life. But when you X ray those, there are these behaviors underneath them, right? What we feel is that buzz and that champagne bubble feeling of being with people we like to solve problems with, we like to work with, and that energy and selflessness you have in a group. But those champagne bubbles are caused by a thing. There's a thing underneath there, and that's safety, sharing, vulnerability, and a sense of purpose. And those behaviors that build that thing are what's fun to tap into. Because then you sort of realize, hey, I don't have to just, like, wait and hope for chemistry to happen. I don't have to just sort of hope that this new team gets along and we do well on our project. I don't just have to hope that when my kids come home from college for Christmas, we have a great time together. There's actually a. There There, there's like moves you can make, things you can say and do, and behaviors you can create and spaces you can create that help that happen. So it's a feeling that you end up getting a feeling of like a little more control over the most magical, mysterious part of life, which is those relationships. Like that study said, like it's all life is all about relationships. It's all about having those peak moments. And if you can tap in to the like levers and tools that are causing those to happen, it's a really good feeling.

Yeah, let's talk about that a bit. I think one of the biggest challenges inside a company, a family, a group, a team, especially in the beginning, is that everyone comes with their own intentions and their own goals, right? So someone may be turning up to this job just to pay their bills. That's all they want. They want nothing else to do with anyone or anything else. Another person's coming in because they're saying, well, this is a long term career for me. I want to make a name for myself, I want to grow, I want to advance and I want to get some goals at this company. Another person comes in and they go, well, you know what, I'm here because I actually want to learn so that I can extract what I know and then go do my own thing. Right? So you have all of these different emotions, different intentions, different psychologies in a group. I guess my question is, how do you then start forming culture when everyone's coming for something completely different?

Safety is the foundation of everything. And people think that safety is about like swaddling people in cotton and making them feel comfortable, when actually it's all about voice. So if your group were to walk in, this group of diverse people that you're talking about, who have diverse purposes in their mind, diverse goals, the first thing you would get them to do is to say, tell me about that. Like what do you want to do about this? There's a beautiful design company named Ideo that you've probably heard of that has this series of meetings before every team project. They're called flight meetings and they say, hey, this is like taking a trip. We're going to have a pre flight meeting, we're going to have a mid flight meeting, we're going to have a post flight meeting. And it's a little calisthenic. They do. The meetings don't take long, but that's what they do at that first meeting. Like, what are you in for? What's going to give you joy out of this? What do you want to learn the most and you create awareness to go back to that flock of birds. Like you'll bump into each other if you don't know where you're at and if you don't know where you're headed. And the other big thing that happens in those first meetings is defining that North Star, like, what are we really all about? Let's come to some consensus. You might be into the learning, you might be into the status, you might be into sort of the exploration and the joy. Let's find some language around and let's find some way to define what that is, and let's keep defining that. A lot of groups come together and they just sort of automatically say, well, our job together is to do a good job, right? Our job together is to succeed, whatever that means. But actually pausing. And this is where I think our work kind of overlaps in an interesting way. I think a lot of what you always talk about is awareness, creating awareness and these moments. And it doesn't happen by accident. It happens when you take an intentional pause. I think what this culture playbook and this cultural skill set in general is really about getting great at pausing as a group. Like, there's all this skillset deposits in individual. We talk about mindfulness, we talk about all of these habits and rituals and mental calisthenics that give us clarity. Groups are no different. They're also an entity that needs to navigate and connect and figure out what's important and what's not important. And so that pause where you say, okay, what are you most into? What are you least into? Why are you here? Where are we headed? If we can like, just get some really simple language around that? And that is the first step toward making us cohere and start to move together.

What are people's biggest fears when they're starting a new job? And then as they progress in the workplace, what are their greatest fears? Have you seen patterns, research studies that, that show that this is what people struggle with inside organizations the most?

It's pretty contextual. It would depend on the specific one. But I think one very common one is reputational risk status. I can't afford to look dumb. I can't afford to display weakness. Which is why in all good cultures, it's funny, I really found this out when I went and visited a Navy seal. His name is Dave Cooper. And Dave, he's a pretty normal looking guy. He's not the best shot, he's not the best swimmer. He can't bench press the most. He's the Great at creating high trust teams. That's what he's really great at. And he actually trained the SEAL Team 6 that got bin Laden. And while we're at breakfast, he says these words, he says, you know, the four most important words a leader can say are, I screwed that up. Just really intriguing, right? Like Navy seals, you should be pretty confident, you should be pretty bulletproof, metaphorically and literally. And yet here he is talking about this profound fallibility. And I think what that sheds a light on is how important sharing vulnerability is, especially if you're in a position of power, because that gives everyone, especially people new to the organization, a clear sense that, hey, this is good to talk about this. We're here to get better together. We're here to give each other, make each other better and share that feedback and be fallible and be weak. So it's really important to have that moment happen early on. When groups form, there's like three critical moments. When every group forms moment one, like the first five minutes you're together, it's a big deal. Like, how are you going to get along? Is it safe? Do people care? Does everyone have a voice? Second one is the first disagreement. We're going to disagree at some point, right? We're going to disagree. And the norms we form around that disagreement. Are we disagreeing along task conflict, which is we're going to have our ideas, are going to fight and that's a good sort of fight. Or is this personal? Right. And the third one is the first moment of learning what's going to happen. Are we going to really stop and point out the fact we just got a little better? This is really cool. I'm really glad you gave me that feedback to make me better. So those critical moments. And I think in successful groups, they're really good at managing those critical moments, spotlighting them and normalizing them. So it's normal to be safe, it's normal to disagree. Thank you for disagreeing with me. Let's have our ideas fight it out. And it's great to learn. You just made me better. Thank you. And if you get those moments right, you're investing in the future success of the group in a huge way. And yet our temptation is often to, like, walk past those moments. Right. We're terrible at pausing. Most teams are really good at do, do, do, do, do, action, action, action, action, action. And the world gives you a lot to do. Like, we've never lived on a planet or in an ecosystem that gives you more information and more to do. And so the teams that have got this strength, this strength of pausing. They get great at stopping and saying, what just happened here? Are we still connected? How can we connect better? That's where the real power is.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm implementing something new in my team right now that I've become a big fan of. And we call it teach me how to treat you. So it's people actually saying that, hey, here's how I would love to be treated when I'm coming in in a bad mood. Here's how I'd love to be treated when I have a bad idea. Here's how I'd love to be treated when I have a good idea. Here's how I'd love your response to be. If we're working virtually, so someone may say, I don't like lots of messages virtually. I prefer a phone call right then than an instant message. Or I prefer if I'm. If I am feeling down, I prefer you don't ask me about it and we just continue as business as usual, because that's easier for me. And what I like about this is that it actually places responsibility on us as individuals to have to explain to others how we work. And that first of all, if you don't know that, you get an opportunity to figure that out. Second of all, now you're not coming into the workplace worrying why everyone's acting a certain way, because you've actually asked them to be that way. And so now you're free of that pressure of expectation of everyone tiptoeing around you or not knowing or worrying what to do. So I'd love to share that with you and go, do you like that? Do you not like that? What part of it works? What doesn't work? How can we improve that?

You must have gotten my memo on how to treat me, because I love that idea. I think that's a really, really good idea. And you're not the only one to do it. That's one of the fascinating things about this moment. We're living in a lot of change in the landscape, a lot of change, and one of the biggest that's causing all these experiments. And so what you're describing, I've heard described as user's guide, you know, user's manual. To me, I mean, we get a quick start guide with our television sets. Like, why don't we get it with our people that we work with? It's the exact same thing. And it's very powerful because it creates two moments of reflection as you just described. First moment, you've got to figure out I'm at my best when I'm at my worst, when what I need from you is, what I don't need from you is. And then that person gets an opportunity to see that and reflect. And so yeah, that is exactly the kind of pause I think it allows a team to navigate together. And this landscape is asking us to do groups, to do two things that are very difficult right now. How do you stay connected and change at the same time? Hybrid work, huge change. Social justice questions, big change in questions. New generations coming into the workplace with a new idea of the social contract around work, huge change. So how do you like stay malleable? You know, where I'm connected, but I'm able to reshape myself almost like that flock of birds and navigate together. And I love that, I love that user's manual idea that you have. Teach me how to treat you. That's really, really good.

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Don't think, just run. If it's that toxic, get out. That would be number one. Number two, there's a saying that I've come to really appreciate, which is that culture is the 15ft around you, and there's a circle of control. And there's a lot of things about our life that we cannot control. There's a lot of things about our jobs in particular that we cannot control. But having positive, healthy learning, safe interactions with a small group is a doable thing. It is an absolutely doable thing. And one of the exercises we have in the playbook is you have a. You are the center of a circle and then you sort of track your map around you, putting the initials of people you work with. And the closer they are to you, the more secure and strong that relationship is. And the idea is to kind of map that in your mind and identify where those strength is and identify where you might want to build and grow those relationships by sending signals of safety and connection, by maybe being vulnerable a little bit. So seeking those things out. And the other thing I think that helps those sorts of situations is to put focus on the learning piece a bit. You know, that's, that's the one thing that work can often give us, opportunity, access to make us better in some small, meaningful way. And trying to seek out those opportunities is another very simple concept that I've seen some cultures do that I talk about in the book too. That's, that's called flash mentoring. It's where, you know, getting a mentor is a really big ask, it's a really big deal. These heavy relationships, well, some groups have solved for that by creating flash mentorships where it's a smaller ask. You go to someone you admire, even if it is a largely toxic place. Find somebody whose work you admire and say, would you mind if I just like you walked me through your typical day or tell me how you prepared for that presentation or give me some feedback on this? Smaller, shorter, coffee sized interactions that are built around learning can be a really effective way to get a little bit more out of that workday.

Yeah, I really like how specific that is. Often when we think about mentorship, we're like, I want you to be my mentor. And it's like this big life decision. And that person may not have time, they may not have the energy. We miss out on the opportunity, as you're saying, to learn something specific and short term that could have an Amazing impact. And also that person could see you apply what they just shared with you. And then with that mini experiment, they go, oh, I'd love to mentor you further. Right? So it builds that trust in these mini bites and chunks, rather than someone takes you on, you can't deliver, you have something personal going on, and all of a sudden they feel like, well, why am I wasting my time mentoring this individual too? Where that leads me to a really interesting place is can people impact and shift culture when they're not the boss, when they're not in charge? Is it possible?

Yes, it is. It is. It's difficult. It's difficult. And the words that I would. That I would use are a word that, that you just used, which is experiment, being oblique. I've seen people influence culture when they have a bad boss and the boss doesn't want to change by providing that boss with a book that might, you know, sliding in their door or creating a conversation or forgetting the boss and just trying to model and create. What does a great group look like? Let's have a coffee gathering at 10am every Monday and start talking about creative new ideas. And that initiative which is born in that idea, that culture is the 15ft around you, that you have control over, the signals you send. In a larger sense, the idea here is one. It's a really important distinction between the things that are complicated and things that are complex. We often tend to think that culture is just. If I do the right thing, the right thing will happen. There'll be some linear effect, like if I just had the right thing to say, Right. But that's not actually how it goes. Culture isn't just complicated. Culture is actually complex, complicated things. There's a way to do it. Like, it's. It's building an engine of a Ferrari. Like, I can give you the diagram and you can follow the diagram and you build it. But complex things change every time you do anything. So it's the difference between, you know, building an engine and raising a kid. So every time you do a little experiment, a little probe in the culture area, pay attention to what happens and amplify the good things and kind of ignore the bad things. So if you're building, culture is about doing these constant sort of probes and experiments. Let me try a book. Let me flip him a video. Let me show her a conversation that I had recently. Let me try this coffee thing. Let me try that. And you'll find as you sort of. You'll experiment forward in a direction. And like with any experiment, you'll make some discoveries and you'll, and follow that energy and see where it leads. You know, culture is not like Legos. It's not like you can just say, put this thing on that thing and this thing. It's a conversation. You're having a conversation with your group and in every conversation you send a signal and then you wait and listen and see where it's going and see what you learned and see what got discovered.

Yeah. When you're doing that, explore and discover one. One thing that's really interesting is that I believe, you know, inside a healthy organization you'll have good performers and then exceptionally high performers. How do you go about managing an exceptionally high performer within a group? Because often what happens is high performers are just so productive and effective that they either take on everything themselves or people may struggle to keep up with them or work with them because they can see that this individual is highly independent, highly self motivated. But at the same time, and you see this in sports, when I think about, you know, when I think about soccer, which is my, my favorite sport, having grown up in England, you look at stars like Cristiano Ronaldo or Lionel Messi or these phenomenal talents or. And then in the US people like Tom Brady or LeBron James. Right. You have these characters and these personalities. How do you effectively bring them into the world and help people? Because in some of those examples, there's a natural respect and admiration for that person because of their almost elite status. But in the workplace it's not always like that. It's not always as clear cut as, you know, this person's the one who's going to win us the championship.

Right. No, it's interesting and that's a great analogy with the world of sport. I mean, there are occasionally superstars. The way the world is moving though, is that I think a lot of times those superstars reputation exceeds what's actually happening. Our world is so complicated that even with stars, they are inevitably not solo actors. They're not, they're not out there doing it around. There is a connective web of people and information and systems that are supporting them. There's a cool study that Adam Grant referenced in a, in a recent book where they took star surgeons, star surgeons from different hospitals away from their teams and they watched how they performed when they moved to a different hospital. And the same thing with traders, great financial traders, and they saw how they performed when they changed firms. When these people lost contact with their system of support, their performance went back to average. I think the cultural move here is to. Not to celebrate the star, but to illuminate the support, to spend time talking about, praising, in certain case, illuminating, spotlighting, making mantras around the collective activity that's producing. Who passed the ball to Ronaldo, you know, who cleared away the defense so that he had a clear move in. I think that's a much more healthy place to go, especially as our world moves more and more into these collective spaces. Lately, we've been seeing all of these films about toxic founders of tech firms, right? Wework, Theranos, Uber. And the reason that all those tragedies happened was that everybody believed in the myth of the superstar. Everyone believed that Elizabeth Holmes is different, Travis Kalanick is different. You know, Adam Newman is different. And that is not true. Like, those people do not exist anymore. There was a time, I'll bet Henry Ford had more in his brain than anybody else, and he was the person you should go to for vision direction, and he had the answers. But we live in a world that moves way too fast. We move in a world that's way too complex to go back to that word, to have any single person. So if any person comes up and says, I have all the answers, that is a huge red flag that they definitely don't. As Pete Seeger said, be wary of great leaders. Hope for many good small leaders.

Right?

And I think there's a deep truth in that. And so having a system that celebrates stars is, as we move into this area, as we move into our future, where things are moving faster than ever, more interconnected than ever. That's. That's a less healthy approach than the team that we have a bunch of stars, and everybody's playing a role and is aware and helpful.

That's really useful. I really appreciate that because, yeah, it's. It's an interesting dynamic because I think back to when I was in the workplace, and so I worked at Accenture for a few years and, you know, had a really great career there, have a really great relationship with the company, and was a phenomenal time for me. I learned a lot, developed a lot, and I. And I found that there were some leaders that were just exceptional at championing young talent. You know, at other times in organizations, I found that a lot of leaders are intimidated by young talent or condescending towards, and they feel like, well, what do you know? You've only been around for two minutes. And I think that balance is really interesting because as much as you don't want to put too much value on star culture, you. You don't want to dampen star potential. Because I think that's. I saw so many friends leave organizations when I knew that person was really talented and I knew that person had so much to offer. But the company wasn't able to understand and dial that in. And that's something that I say to everyone on my team, that as much as I want them to have a professional goal and a personal goal, they want to learn, but beyond both of those, I want them to have a goal that is about their potential and I want to be the person to help them fulfill their potential. Like, that's always one of the things I said. Anyone who joins our company, it's like, I want you to fulfill your potential here, or even if it's not here, I want you to fulfill your potential. I want to be a part of that. Because I know that I would have wanted to hear that when I. When I joined an organization. And I never really felt that I heard that as clearly. And I found that, you know, for some people it was like, well, if you leave, then we don't, you know, you're no longer connected to us. And if you stay, then you play by our rules. And I think that was always a really, really fascinating thing.

Enlightened. Is there certain points where being morally good and being smart cross over and actually are the same thing? And that's a moment where it is. And I see that over and over again. There's a. I do some consulting for the Cleveland Guardians baseball team and occasionally one of our assistant coaches will get an opportunity to be a head coach at another team. And there's a bit of a tradition, a habit, a custom that when that coach gets that interview, the front office sort of circles around that person and helps them, helps them build their worksheets, helps them build their plan, tells them what suit to wear, gives them contextual information and sends them on their way. And it's a beautiful thing. You're losing someone, but you are deepening a relationship and life is long. People will circle back around and you will always have that relationship. And I think that's a very enlightened and wise way to approach that sort of off boarding moment.

Yeah, I think moving forward with that, there's something that I find which I really loved from your book. And I'm excited to see how the Playbook makes this more practical and applicable. And that's what I love about the culture code. It really dulls you into the philosophy. And I'm guessing the Playbook allows you to really take action on those ideas, which I think is A brilliant combination. Let's talk about two really interesting things in the workplace. Gratitude and appreciation. And then feedback. And the challenge with gratitude is that it can come across as flattery and cheap words. And the challenge with feedback is that it can come across as criticism or judgment. Walk us through what you found is the best ways of showing praise, gratitude and appreciation and the best ways of giving feedback inside an organization that actually helps the person digest how you're feeling and what you want them to take away.

Larger. Yeah, those are great. I really love that the. This idea around appreciation of continually reflecting back someone's impact, and impact ends up being a really, really important word. There's a certain kind of appreciation that happens in good culture that is rarely talked about. It was introduced to me by the people at Pixar who talk about the pleasure of solving hard problems with people you admire. The pleasure of solving hard problems with people you admire. There's a misnomer, sort of this mistaken idea that life in top performing cultures is always happy and positive, that if you were to go work at Pixar, that you'd go to a meeting and every idea would be a brilliant idea and everyone would applaud and then every, every draft of the movie would be better and better and better in the last. In fact, when you go to that place as well as any other place, it's not that way. There's profound disagreement, there's profound tension, but they're circled up around that problem, shoulder to shoulder, trying to figure out how to make it better. And that the pleasure of that, the appreciation they have for each other in those moments is very special. In fact, people will leave cultures and often come back for that feeling. That's a special feeling. But specifically with appreciation, I think we have to go back to that word, impact. When appreciation is bad, it sounds like sort of attaboy. What a coach would tell a player, Attaboy, nice job, good job, way to go. And it's vague, it's generalized, it's not specific to the person, when it's good. And I saw an example of this and I think I wrote about it in the Playbook. One example is a weekly impact note. There was a. It's where you once a week make the habit of. Of capturing the impact your team has had on the world and on the group, crystallizing it in a very, very specific language and sharing it back to the team. Almost like a little newspaper of the week. Here's the impact we had on the world this week. This health clinic that did it would gather patient feedback and they would say, nurse Johnson treated me really nicely, really warmly. They would share that back. So that idea of continually reflecting back, which actually connects to the purpose, conversation, because you always end up, I think, using those moments of appreciation as a way to spotlight your North Star as kind of a beacon to say, here's what we look like at our best. If we can define that and feel that and name those behaviors and feel those. The better we get at that, the better we're going to function, the better we're going to perform. When it comes to feedback, I have a problem with the whole word. The whole concept is a little bit off. It's wrong. The idea that someone can watch me work and get little samples, tiny sample sizes of my work, and then once every six months come in and tell me what I'm doing well and what I'm doing poorly. The studies actually show that most feedback is pretty darn inaccurate. It's based. We tend to be biased toward people that resemble us. We tend to be biased toward the most immediate work they've done. It ends up often creating a bad interaction because you have someone who is not informed and not ready trying to kind of muscle up to deliver some feedback to somebody underneath them. And it's got all kinds of problems that break apart groups. Good feedback. A better way to do it was taught to me by a woman named Ellen Van Oosten, who teaches leadership at Case Western University. She flips it. Instead of giving someone feedback, you ask them two questions. It's the more differently question you ask them. What do you think you should do more of? It's a really powerful question, actually. And I'm not trying to tell you anything. I'm just saying it creates a reflection where they have to say what's had the biggest impact lately. Where have I learned the most? What am I most excited by? What do you should do more of? And the second question is, what do you think you should do differently without being aggressive or threatening? That's another one that gets me to ponder where I might want to change my mind. So creating these kind of safe zones to have the reflection is really what feedback's about. So I see a lot of groups moving away from the big semi annual annual review where you're going to get the truth, which isn't really the truth, from someone who doesn't really know, and moving toward these coaching conversations where they're continually asking those questions. What's working right now? What are you excited about? What are you worried about right now? Now let's talk about that. And see, again, it's that conversational nature of culture building that is at the core of. It's like. It's like photosynthesis. Right. You got to have these conversations and they'll. They'll grow you.

Yeah. I love how you just, you know, busted the myth around feedback. Right. Like, I think that there's so much emphasis on how to give the perfect feedback or how to give the right feedback. And you do give an amazing example that you, I think, extrapolate from both Popovic and school exams and school essays and how feedback is given to students who perform really well in the culture code, which. Which I loved, which was that safety, making them feel a part of something bigger and. And also sharing it with them, knowing that you're saying, I actually know that you can reach this level. Like, I actually believe you can get there. But what you've said right now, I think is really, really incredible because you're so right that we think that based on a small sample of observation, we can make a judgment about someone's performance. And the truth is that we don't know their intention. We don't know why they did that. We don't know what they were thinking about. Maybe they were three steps ahead and something else went wrong. Like, we just have no idea. And those questions are really brilliant. I found this. So in our organization, what we do is we do a quarterly review, which includes a self assessment and then a joint manager assessment. And what I find really interesting every time I do that is how wrong I am and how differently I'm thinking in the sense of often I'm placing more emphasis on something else that seems to be important to me, and I'm not able to see what the person is emphasizing. But that conversation opens it up. So we sit down and we're doing a, you know, they've done their self assessment. I say, hey, how do you think you've been performing in this area and why? And they'll list of all these things that they've done well or things they need to do less of or differently. And I'm thinking, wow, I didn't even think about half of those things. Like, how incredible is it that this is giving me an opportunity to even be more grateful and. And appreciate this person more? And I found something really interesting. And obviously this is not verifiable statistically because it's anecdotal. For me, I found that the top performers inside my organization are people who give themselves lower ratings than I give them. So often I'LL be sitting down with some of my best people, and in every review they'll rank themselves lower than I did. And I'm sitting there going, I give it like, you're amazing. Like, you know, you're incredible. And they, they are actually looking at more ways to improve. And I find that so fascinating as a trend that I've seen over time. Hey, friends, quick question. How do your nights feel? Hatch believes the way you wind down at night shapes how you show up the next day. Self care isn't about doing more. It starts with resting better. That's why Hatch created their Hatch Restore, a smart sleep clock that helps you reclaim your evenings, think calming sounds, gentle audio, and even a surprise wake up to start your day right. Check it out at Hatch Co. Because better nights lead to better days. When you have to go pick up meds, it can really dig into your downtime because you have to wait in traffic, wait to find parking, and then stand there waiting in the pharmacy line. Amazon Pharmacy delivers meds right to your door fast without ever having to get up and do anything. Your patience and your feet will thank you. Thanks to Amazon Pharmacy, healthcare just got less painful.

I love that. No, it's very true. It's certainly true in the sports world. You ask, you know, somebody's doing, doing brilliantly. Ask Cristiano how he's doing. And I might not say brilliant. So it is. It's a measure of these internal narratives that we don't really have access to these internal standards and an approach of humility. There was a Navy SEAL commander who called it a backbone of humility that's required with leadership. And I love that phrase because the humility is really, it's a strength. This is not. Humility isn't bending. It's actually being strong enough to realize I'm actually only seeing a tiny part of the picture here. And I need to learn. I need to be humbly. I need to humbly learn what's happening in this situation.

Yeah. And I think learning why people are making the decisions they are teaches you so much more than the decision they made. And so often in your head, you're telling yourself a story of like, oh, they should have thought about this and they didn't think about this. And as soon as you ask them, you realize they thought about all of that and more than you did, and you're humbled. And it's so much easier to be humble in the first place. You know, one of the things that I genuinely struggle with, Daniel, this is a personal question. Is this challenge that I currently have in my life where not only am I a host, an author, a coach in my own profession, but at the same time I'm a CEO and a leader. And the time I spend on cameras and the time I'm with you right now, or interviewing a guest or I'm hosting a TV show or I'm. Or whatever it may be, I'm not with my team because I'm doing tasks that are creative and outward facing. And so a lot of CEOs may do a bit of press, but majority of time they're working on the product with the team that they're in those groups. They don't necessarily live this combined life that a lot of people live today where they're creators, they're talent, they're on camera, but then they also lead teams. And I genuinely believe that my life is going to be an experiment in figuring out how to do this because I find that naturally, when I'm doing more of one of them, you, it takes away from the time I get to do the other. And both are integral to the work I do. So have you found any great stories or case studies of how people have created not balance? Because I don't think it's about equality. I think it's about creating the right practices and systems that allow you to operate in both worlds.

Right. A couple of things I've observed. One is that when you look at any single, when you think there's a single leader, you're often wrong. There's often, there's often this pairing thing that happens when you, if you look at Pixar, it's Ed Catmull and John Lasseter. When you look at the San Antonio spurs, it's R.C. buford and Greg Popovich. And so finding this unique soulmate partner who really has a different domain interest than you to make it work, it, it is, as you say, like physics is going to stop you at some point. Right. I mean, there's only so many hours and only so much energy and you've got a lot of, of priorities to do. So finding that partner and cultivating, searching and developing that teamwork around that I think is incredibly powerful. And the other thing is, I think always trying when you do have that fork in the road where you need to decide between should I be productive or should I focus on my people to bias toward your people when you have that, if it feels like a coin flip, go toward the people. And was on a, on a call that involved General Mattis, who used to head up all of NATO's forces. And someone asked him how he spent his day and he said, I spent about 45 minutes on NATO strategy and I spent the rest of the time coaching my leaders. The rest of time was coaching, like eight ninths of my day was coaching my leaders. And those conversations end up feeling inefficient at the time. They feel like you're, oh my God, I am not doing the important stuff. But in fact, that's an illusion. You are doing the important stuff because you're investing in creating clarity, a landscape, a connection that you guys can navigate it together. So those are the two things that come to mind as you, as you mentioned that.

Yeah, and I see myself moving in that direction of wanting to, you know, I constantly want to be spending more time with my leaders and my teams. Like, that's, that's all I want to be doing. And I completely see the value in that. And I'm learning how to, how to carve that time out because they also need support and help and, and, you know, everything else that comes with it. It's not kind of like an outsourced delegation job, which, which is not my style anyway, but, but I noticed that, that they need that support from me. You've talked about having icebreakers or conversation starters for meetings, and I love that idea because to me, like, I'm one of, you know, I come from the world of like meditation and pause and stillness. So for me, a reflection question is like one of my favorite things. And I have this restaurant in here in LA that I love to go to called Cafe Gratitude, because they always have a question of the day when you go there and they'll give you the question of the day as a table. And then, you know, even anyone who's not used usually into this kind of stuff is like, oh, yeah, maybe that's a really cool idea. Right, so what are some of the ones, those five minute warm ups before meetings that help the quality of the meeting itself. What are some of your favorite ones or examples you've seen work really well?

Yeah, this hybrid thing, it's weird, right? I mean, it's, you're creating this new space. And as somebody pointed out is a man named Glenn Fajardo who wrote a book on virtual rituals. He's from the Stanford Design School. Good, interesting, really interesting book. But the insight he has is virtual is voluntary. Like if we're actually in a room together, you kind of have to pay attention to me. I kind of have to pay attention to you. But to be virtual, you actually have to Create this shared space. And this is a weird connection. But I was this weekend, I did one of Tony Robbins virtual events. I gave a short presentation at 1, like for 40 minutes beforehand. What were they doing? They weren't talking about ideas. They were playing really loud music and basically doing yoga and dancing. Like they were creating this shared state. Not saying that everyone has to do that, but in this sort of hybrid world, to take a minute and try to create some shared space. And some of the ideas for doing that are playing music are having everybody bite a lemon at the same moment. Eating on camera turns out to be weirdly effective. It's like breaking bread together is one of the more sort of powerful things that people do together. And it feels very strange to eat on camera at first, but as you sort of get used to it, that can be also sort of a very simple, powerful thing to do. But whatever you do, whether it's, you know, a little guessing game where you play a song and guess whose favorite song it is, whatever that might be, just think about creating that shared space in a way that doesn't have to do with the work you're doing, in a way that just deals with the person, the people you are at this moment. All that said, it is really hard to form real relationships online. The smart groups right now, and the smart money is in toggling in having people, if they are hybrid, having times where they are, they're flying and getting together for a short amount of time where it's maybe half fun and half work, but having that time and not saying we're going to live completely in the virtual world because that physical connection acts like a booster shot. Like. Like, now I. Now I really know you, and now we can really work together.

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm glad you clarified that, because I think a lot of this stuff is possible virtually, even though we know that it's better physically. But it is possible to do these small games and ideas virtually, and that does form a better connection. I know one of the things I was mentioning to people is, you know, I do feel we get such an intimacy by being in people's homes right now. Right. And we have for quite a while now. But one of the things I would do is I'd always say to a lot of people, hey, I'm not being creepy, I'm just being curious. I want to know what's in your background, like, what's that a picture of? Or what's that behind you? And I found that that just opened up such a natural story from them. And a natural question. So I remember one of my clients had a paintbrush hanging on his wall. And I was just like, why do you have a paintbrush on your wall? And he started laughing. And he goes, no one ever asks me. And I was like, well, I'm asking you, so I want to know. I'm being curious, not creepy. And he said, you know what? My first ever job was that I used to paint fences, and then I used to paint walls. And he goes, then I finally got to paint homes, and it was like a summer job. And now he's a big executive of a large company. And he was like, I keep that there to remind me of where I started. And I love that story. Then I started telling him about how my first job was, that I was a paper delivery boy, right? I used to go around, be a paper boy in my area. And all of a sudden, we were talking about first jobs, and I thought, wow, this is a really cool question to ask people because it's. It shares so much about their history and where they started. And so that became one of my favorite questions to ask people, is like, what was your first job ever? So I'm going to ask you, Daniel, what was your first job ever?

Oh, my God. I was a greeter in a hospital. I was like, at the time, I wanted to be a doctor. And so I stood by the door and kind of. I wheeled people in and wheeled them out, and, you know, new babies and pregnant women would wheel them in and wheel out a new baby. And it was both really fun. It really gave you. Everybody comes to the hospital, right? You know, you however, you know, small. Your big. Your world is. You see everybody coming. And so that sort of interaction, I think, sparked something in me as a. As a journalist and made me know that I never wanted to be a doctor.

What was. What do you think was the biggest lesson you learned from that? Like, was there a. Was there a takeaway or an insight that you feel really planted a seed in you that stayed with you?

I think banter is underrated. Like, I think the power of banter, the power of, like, just having a little light touch and being able to chat people up, is one of the strongest powers in the universe. And I think that really showed me that because, you know, you're taking people and some of them are in pain and some of them are scared, and those little interactions can have a big impact on the space.

Yeah. What have been. I mean, bantering an organization is, you know, I feel like it's at an interesting time because everyone's sensitivities have changed. Everyone's like, you know, barriers and boundaries have changed as well, for good reasons. And also some of them, you know, for personal reasons, which of course has to be respected and understood. And it's. It can be quite hard to build a banter based culture. I know that when people see me and my wife talking, because we're both from London, the word banter for us is, is literally how our life functions. And people see me and my wife in this and sometimes be like, are you guys okay? Like, you know, is everything okay? And we're just like, no, this is banter. Like, this is how we're playful with each other. You know, often banter can be misconstrued. How do you build the trust first in order to be able to have banter? Like, what? Because I feel sometimes we do it the other way around. We think banter builds trust, but often I don't think that's true anymore. I think trust allows you to have banter.

Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. And vulnerability allows you to have trust. And I think the fastest way to sort of build that is to do things together. You know, there's nothing like actually doing something in the real world that will, that will create that trust and there's nothing. And to do it away from where you're not capturing it in words. I think one of the reasons that we're so divided and it's such a difficult time is that we're relying on people reading. And reading is a terrible way to get to know someone. Reading someone's comments, these words, they form in their head and they type them out and then you read them and form some idea in your head. It's absolutely a terrible way to get to know someone. So doing something in real life is by far the most sort of powerful thing that you can do, as big or as small as that may be. And also the power of story in this situation. Like, you know, the story you just shared about your friend with the painter. The story I just shared being comfortable enough. And that's where those icebreakers, I think, come in. Because they, they start at a safe place where they're going back to what was your favorite meal growing up. They started a place where we're free of kind of the larger political forces that were. That we're navigating right now. And you start from there and then. And then build up.

I love that, Daniel, you've been so generous with your time and so many great Insights and advice. And at the end of every On Purpose episode, we do a final five. This is a fast five round, which means that every answer has to be given in one word or one sentence maximum. So you have that little bit of room to play with. So, Daniel Coyle, these are your final five. Are you ready?

Ready. Bring it.

Awesome. All right, so the first question is, what's the best advice you ever heard or received?

Look twice. Always look twice.

Oh, I like that. We've never had that on the show before. Really, really like that. Second question, what's the worst advice you've ever received or heard?

Trust your first instincts.

Yeah, there we go. I like that. I like that. That's. So let's. Let's dive into that a little bit because I think people have a belief that, like, your first impression is always right, your first instinct is always right. Why do you think that's such bad advice?

Well, it's not true. You know, when they look at. When they do studies of whether it's exams or anything. Adam Grant wrote a great book called Think Again All. All about this moment. But we're built to crave that certainty. Right? And that certainty was useful for all of history until sort of recently and now that certainty is what is often dividing us and often causing us to make bad decisions. So being able to zoom out like that ability to be. We've got. You almost think of as you've got these two brains inside your brain. One likes to really grasp things, the other is able to zoom out. And so realizing, wait a minute, am I using this narrow spotlight right now, or am I looking through my peripheral vision at more. And gaining control over that is. Is a really powerful thing because it causes you to look twice.

Yep. Third question is, what is your current purpose? How would you define your current purpose?

Teaching culture. That's. That's, you know, teaching the fundamentals. Teaching the fundamentals of culture. This is how. This is how it works. This is how that language works.

Question number four is, what trait of culture or leadership are you currently fascinated by that you're currently learning about that you haven't yet fully grasped?

I think the power of group reflection, creating these spaces where groups can actually think together.

Right? Yeah, I don't think we've figured that out yet. I agree.

It's crazy because we're hired as individuals, we train in school as individuals, we're assessed as individuals, we think of ourselves as individuals, and yet all the big things in life happen because of groups and group skills. And we put no energy or Attention to figuring out what's that at its best.

Yeah, I love that. All right, fifth and final question is, if you could create one law or one habit that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

Be nice.

Simple. Easy.

Yeah, really simple. Really? So you have to be nice.

How do you define nice? How do you define nice?

I'll edit myself. I'll say be kind. It's an action with consideration of the other. Kindness is a behavior. It's not just a thought. So to actually bring that to life, I love that.

Everyone, this is Daniel Coyle. The book is the culture playbook, 60 highly effective actions to help your group succeed. Highly recommend you get the Culture Code and the Culture Playbook. I know I'm going to be ordering the Culture Playbook straight away, so make sure you do that as well. And it's just brilliant to understand Daniel's ideas and the research and the studies that he shares inside the book. But then to have these 60 highly effective actions to help you actually take action and apply on those, I mean, you couldn't find a better combination, to be honest. So I really hope you're going to go and grab both copies. We'll put the links into the podcast section. Daniel, any last words? Any last thoughts? You've been incredible. I'm so grateful to get to meet you. I'm excited, excited to develop our connection and relationship more as well. But any final words or final thoughts you want to share?

Me too. Thanks for having me. You're very good at what you do. I think you model the sort of connective sensitivity, insight and curiosity that good culture is made of. So thanks for letting me be part of it.

Thank you. That means a lot. Yeah. No, a lot of the questions today were for me. A lot of them were things that I'm fascinated by and I left everything else in the book. There is so many amazing insights in the book that I didn't even dive into today, everyone, because I want you to read the book. It's brilliant. So, Daniel, thank you so much again. Have a great, great day and I really appreciate meeting you. Thank you so much.

Same here, Jay. Look forward to next time.

We all know that fame is not the same as success, and yet society makes it so easy to slip into thinking there's no difference between the two. So today I want to bring it back to what really matters. Doing good work, making an impact, feeling fulfilled. The next seven minutes are about your aims in life and how to live with purpose. I'm Jay Shetty. Welcome to the Daily J let's begin by giving attention to our breath and getting centered. Inhaling deeply in and slowly letting it out. Feeling your body reach towards the sky and fall lightly back to earth, drawing energy from the air and releasing tension. Now, let me ask you have you ever heard the song California Dreaming by the Mamas and the Papas? How about Good Vibrations by the Beach Boys? Or I Got yout Babe by Sonny and Cher? I would sing them for you, but I want you to keep listening. Seriously, though, if you've ever heard any of these three songs, then you're familiar with the work of a legendary group of studio musicians known as the Wrecking Crew. Studio musicians are contractors and who play instruments on albums by other artists. They're often exceptionally skilled, and the members of the Wrecking Crew were as good as it gets. They recorded hundreds of top 40 hits in the 60s and 70s, playing with all kinds of bands. The Monkees, the Birds, Frank and Nancy Sinatra. Their impact on popular music is hard to fathom, however, their work went largely unnoticed by the public. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that before today you probably hadn't heard of them. And here's why. Our society venerates the frontman. We celebrate the rock God, the CEO, the mvp. We idolize famous individuals so much that we might believe that real success equals stardom, that our effort is meaningless without public recognition. But that couldn't be further from the truth. Celebrity is not a prerequisite for impact, nor is it a necessary ingredient for happiness, purpose or fulfillment. Not to say there's anything wrong with fame. It can be quite useful when channeled responsibly, and it can come as a natural byproduct of creating something meaningful or memorable. But it's much more important to focus on doing your best work and acknowledging the payoff that comes from within. You should take pleasure from knowing that you're doing well rather than having other people think you are. Now, I'm not saying you don't deserve to be appreciated for your efforts. The Wrecking Crew may not have been a household name, but in the recording industry they were held in high regard and were compensated well for their services. What I'm saying is that there's no shame in playing a supporting role if that's what you enjoy or that's where you end up. In the documentary 20ft from Stardom, accomplished backup singer Lisa Fisher says, I reject the notion that the job you excel at is somehow not enough to aspire to. So I'm giving you permission right here, right now, to celebrate Your integral role, whether it's in the spotlight or not, because you don't have to be a superstar to. To do good work, to make a difference, to feel fulfilled and to live a life of purpose. And now let's meditate on that. Start by getting a little more comfortable wherever you are, tuning into yourself and tuning into this moment. For the next two minutes, see if you can let go of judgment and analysis, allowing yourself to sink in. Today we're going to connect with some words of acceptance and compassion towards yourself others. You can repeat them silently or just take them in. All I need to do is love myself well, this will be enough. All I need to do is love others well, this will be enough. All I need to do is love my life well, this will be enough. Let that marinate a bit. All I need to do is love myself well, this will be enough. All I need to do is love others well, this will be enough. All I need to do is love my life well, this will be enough. And now let's open this up. I'd like you to reflect on what success means to you and whether your definition could use a little tweak. How are you currently making and impact? How are you moving in the direction of a more purposeful life? Hopefully the Daily J is helping you head in that direction. And I'd love it if you shared this program with someone who matters to you. I wish you success and happiness in everything you do. I'm grateful for you and I hope to see you again tomorrow. Success starts with your drive and American Public University is here to fuel it. With affordable tuition and over 200 flexible online programs, APU helps you gain the skills and confidence to move forward. Whether you're changing careers, starting fresh or pursuing a lifelong passion. Our programs are designed for people who never stop you Bring the fire. APU will fuel the journey. Learn more at apu. Apus Edu. Sometimes you just need to go to your happy place. And there's no better happy place than celebrity cruises. They get you closer than close to the history, culture and flavors of Europe. And now they visit more of it than ever. Their elevated Caribbean escapes keep the island bliss going between islands. From quick three and four night getaways to week long journeys and longer. There's nothing more restorative than the wild wonders of Alaska. And celebrity ships are designed to make the most of every view. Celebrity doesn't just build ships, they build the vacations. You you'll always remember in the places you'll never forget. Book today and see why nothing comes close to celebrity cruises.

Hey, it's Joel and Matt from how to Money. If your New Year's resolution is to finally get your finances in shape, we've got your back prices, they're still high, and the economy is all over the place. But 2026 is the year for you to get intentional and make real progress. That's right. Yeah. Each week, we break down what's happening with your money, the most important issues to focus on, and the small moves that make a big difference. Kick off the year with confidence. Listen to how to Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.