3 Signs You Could Be Dealing With Depression & How to Stop Self-Sabotage

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Every single morning, the first thing I would do is cry. Just because being awake was that difficult. I felt like a. Like a ticking time bomb. It was just a matter of when, really.

Hey everyone.

Welcome back to this very special episode of On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every single one of you that come back every week to listen, learn and grow. Now, now. I am so grateful for this amazing community that we have for each and every one of you that lend me your ears twice a week. And as you know, I'm always, always thinking about new ways in which we can serve and support our community and your journeys towards a better understanding of yourself and a better understanding of your friends, your family members and the people around you and the world around us as well. Now, this episode is sponsored by BetterHelp Online Therapy and and today I'm joined with He Su Jo, licensed marriage and family therapist and head of clinical operations at BetterHelp. And in this new monthly series, we will be serving real listeners of the show and community. You'll hear the stories, the things that they struggle with and get to sit in on a real therapy session with the intention of letting you know you're not alone. We're all dealing with something, and in every show we will address different themes, different experiences, and our goal is to bring more awareness to taking care of your mental health and provide everyone the tools, resources, and encouragement they need to heal their past for a brighter future. Now, when we were thinking about this idea, one of the things I realized is that today we hear a lot about therapy. People say, oh, my therapist said this to me, or I learned this in therapy, but rarely have we actually sat in on a therapy session. We don't know what it looks like, and often our family members don't know what it looks like. I'm hoping that this is going to be a resource that you can share with your friends, your family so that they can understand therapy better, so that you can understand therapy better. And as a community, we can heal together as well. Today, Jesu and I are joined by a very wonderful and special individual named Ashley. And Ashley's joined us today to share her journey, to share her story. And I want you to welcome her and give her the deepest, warmest, most beautiful welcome from our on purpose community because she so kindly agreed to be a part of this today. So, Hesu and Ashley, so grateful to have you here. I'm really, really thankful to do this with both of you. And this is the first time we're doing this. It's historic and it's special. But thank you for being here.

Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Yeah. Thank you for including both of us. Yeah.

It's exciting.

It is. It is exciting. And you know, we were talking a bit beforehand and we really want to honor you, Ashley, and, and make sure that we serve you in an effective way. And so I'm going to now hand over to Jesu who's going to start this wonderful conversation and discussion. So, Jesu, over to you.

I mean, just continuing a little bit of something Jay was mentioning. I want to make sure that you feel safe, that you feel comfortable. So if there's ever a moment that the conversation is going somewhere that doesn't feel right for you, you can indicate that in whatever way that you need to. But thank you. Thank you so much for being willing and open to talk about yourself for so many people. Because I think part of de stigmatizing the idea of seeking support is seeing other people do that. Right. Seeing other real people doing that versus just hearing commercial after ad about doing this or trying this new thing. So My understanding is that you've already been in therapy for some time, and I was wondering if you could share a little bit about what initially got you to try it the first time.

So initially, I was so against therapy. I didn't want nothing to do with it. Like, I thought it was a lost cause. I was like, no one can help me. Like, no one can imagine what I'm going through or even trying to tell me what I can do to get better, because in my mind, nothing could help me. 2018, I believe I overdosed on, like, sleeping meds. And I was. After that, I was kind of actually forced into it, but I didn't have a choice. And that kind of started my therapy journey. And from there, I was in therapy for two years.

Something going on in your life led to some unsafe behaviors, like ways to cope. Like, people often turn to substance when there is trauma because it helps numb stuff. It helps you not think about things. And sometimes you feel good. Right? It makes you feel not just better from this thing that has been painful, but it feels good. And. And so I'm hearing that you had kind of, like, a mandated route into therapy. You mentioned that you wouldn't have considered it. So what were some of your ideas about what therapy was before?

I didn't even know where to even begin, what therapy looks like. I just thought someone would just sit there and tell me, oh, how do you feel about that? Oh, how do you feel about that? You know what I mean? That's kind of like what I thought, or like, someone tried to preach to me or, like, tell me what to do or how I should do it, but really it wasn't like that at all.

For me, it ended up being something different.

Exactly.

And I know you can't, like, give an entire synopsis of the therapeutic journey that you've been through, but now that you have gone through some of these sessions, and it sounds like you found out it wasn't just. So how did that make you feel?

How did.

And I'm sure your therapist did ask many times. Well, how did that make you feel? What do you think of therapy now, then? What is therapy? If somebody is to ask you, a seasoned client, like, what to expect if they were to try this out?

Therapy is amazing. Honestly, I recommend it to everybody. They tell me the problems, like, you know what? You need a therapist. And, like, I don't even mean that in, like, a negative. It's not a negative thing at all. It's very positive. And I try to enlighten that. But for me, When I was in therapy, like, okay, so you have these dark thoughts and when you don't recognize them or you don't even know what they are, it can easily spiral out of control. And so with therapy, she really helps me recognize these thinking traps is what we would call them. And throughout the day I was more aware, like, if I would say I'm worthless or you can't do that, I'll be like, wait a minute, that's not true. Let's kind of lay it out and understand what this is, where it's coming from. That's something I still practice until this day. Every single day catch myself thinking something negative. And obviously there's more to it, but something I really took away from that.

Yeah, you're describing cognitive behavioral therapy.

Exactly. That's exactly what it is.

Yeah, you, you went through this process where somebody helped you learn to identify and then articulate your internal process. Because when you can start talking about it or even understanding it a little bit better, I think that's when you really are able to make strides in terms of finding healing for yourself. The ability to let the things go that you need to, the ability to move on. So you shared a little bit about what led to your first session. Right. Somebody you were forced because you became unsafe to yourself.

Exactly.

Can you share now what you think led to the types of feelings you were trying to numb with substances?

Well, I think it was just like a let up. There wasn't like a particular event. Well, something did trigger it and I can talk about that. But overall I've been struggling with it for, since I was a young child. I think it was like really just a matter of time. And I think if I like received help sooner, it wouldn't have gotten to that point. And for like a lot of people like me, unfortunately, something that drastic has to happen for us even want to accept help.

Yeah, the rock bottom experience. Right. Like people. Not just people. Not people, I should say. We. We often feel like there's some kind of like shortcoming or something wrong with me if I need to reach out for support. Because a lot of us have this misconception that therapy is for the weak minded. The people that are absent of some kind of strong will of their own. And it takes a lot of courage, I think, to finally realize, like vulnerability takes a lot of strength. Being able to open up to someone, being able to open up to yourself and admit a lot of stuff. Yeah. And so you mentioned like your life led to that moment. I'm sure. Series events and then you also said something about something did trigger this. So is that something that you're willing to kind of open up about now?

I think at that time it was. My depression really had a hold of me. Every single morning. I would. The first thing I would do is cry just because being awake was that difficult. I didn't even want to spend the day with myself mentally. That was going on for a couple months, and I feel like no matter what I did, like, one day I would wake up, I feel like I would do a good job, but I feel like it was still not enough. I'm like, wow, I really gave it my all and it still was not enough. I was like, what is the point of being here? One day, my ex boyfriend and I got in an argument and I was like, wow, I will. I'm just. Again, I'll never be enough. I'll never be worthy. And normally in those situations, I will contemplate, I'll have a conversation with myself, like, okay, Ashley, you know, one more day, one more day. Like, just hold on, hold on. But that day, there was no conversation with myself. A switch just flipped and I just went through with it. And I was like, worst case scenario, I go to sleep and I wake up. Like, okay, but like, best case scenario for me, I go to sleep and I don't even know what happened. That's what I was hoping for, but didn't exactly go as planned, which is probably the best. I felt like a. Like a ticking time bomb. It was just a matter of when, really.

You're describing just like living for such a long time without knowing how to regulate your emotions and really process a lot of stuff. Right. And it, like, blew up in an argument. Sounds like I want to shift gears a little bit and kind of ask a little bit more about your previous therapy experiences so far. So while you've been in therapy, I'm hearing you say that you've learned some skills, you've learned some things to, like, cope with and navigate everyday life. Like, how did you learn that stuff? Like, what is it that the therapist was doing to teach these things? Right?

So I'm a huge imagery person. And like, one thing we would do, it was. It was kind of like how I describe it, like a court case. Okay. And like, you have your, like, the jury of, like, the lawyers, stuff like that. And one thing I struggled with was feeling like I'm not capable of taking care of myself. Like, I'm a grown adult, I should be able to take care of myself. And I couldn't. And so we would break down the evidence, like, okay, what's real and like, what's false? Like, let's just recognize that there. Because when you're in this kind of mindset, you tell yourself so many lies, stuff that's not even true. And so I would, I'm like, okay, well, I do this, I do my laundry sometimes. Like, I have been working out past couple weeks, like, oh, you do feed yourself. You have to give yourself credit for the things that you actually do. And you. I would, we would write it down in the evidence section and we would write down like, what was false. And basically like, the jury would come to the conclusion, like, no, you are capable. So, yeah, you would just really just have to in that process, give yourself credit and kind of look at what was real and what wasn't. And you would shift those thoughts of I should be able to. And you change it into, no, you are able to and you do.

It's a lot of just shifting the way you think about stuff, taking on different perspectives, hearing someone kind of reword or like paraphrase your life in a different way. It sounds like you've learned a lot about yourself too. There's like a period of time where it sounds like you didn't really know who you were.

Mm.

Like, what parts of learning these skills, learning how to identify evidence for and against some kind of thought or belief, helped you figure out who you are? Like, do you feel like there was some kind of self exploration, self identification type of process? Like, it's not just learning skills. Right. It's. I guess I'm, I'm trying to get to your sense of any kind of change in the ways that you perceive yourself. Like, how has that changed kind of shifted in that two year period.

So a lot of people, I believe, feel like they go to therapy and overnight they're so much better. And that's just not the case. And for me, again, until this day, it's something I had to practice every single day. So there wasn't like one particular moment where I just like saw myself in like a better light. Eventually you keep practicing and practicing and practicing and eventually you start to learn yourself. You start to value yourself and you see yourself in a whole different light. You have, you learn boundaries and you have them now and you have rules for yourself and you don't allow certain people or certain situations control you as much because you have more confidence in the tools and the coping mechanisms that you have developed throughout therapy. And that's definitely helped me a lot. And like, to this day. I really do see myself in a higher light and I don't let people take advantage of me as much as I used to back in the day.

Back in the day, people took advantage of you. In what ways do you think that was happening that you're able to prevent now?

Well, just one example you were mentioning earlier, people they the kind of self that sabotage, whether it's drugs, alcohol. For me, I didn't do any of that. For me, my reckless behavior was being promiscuous. And that's kind of like what I learned growing up was giving yourself for in return for love. So that's what I thought I had to do in order to receive any sort of love. And so I would give myself to guys, you know, and like thinking, oh, this is how they're going to accept me. This is like where they're going to love me. This is where I'm valued. And now it's not like that at all. I'm just like, no, I have so much more to give than my body. You know what I mean? And so that's just one example of how things have definitely shifted.

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You'Re speaking to something huge here, right? Is like we, as people, we learn how to not only give love, but how to receive love from very significant people, really early in our lives, childhood, and those people that are supposed to love us unconditionally, keep us safe, nurture us, show us that the world is a safe place, have a lot of power over us as young children. And so what I'm hearing is when you were a young child, some kind of event or series, events taught you that love means something, you know, specific. Right? So I'm curious, in your therapy experience, how much did you go back and talk about your childhood in that time?

When I went to therapy, we did go well, you kind of have to understand why you feel this way. And it does stem from your childhood, everything. So we, we really did start from there, and we broke it down from there. It really does help you. You start to realize what, how you're acting in the presence is. It stems from that.

We reenact, we try to correct what happened to us as kids in our adult relationships. And I think we all try to the best of our Ability, but to try to correct something that happened to us when we were six, we didn't know any better. You know, trying to make this six year old, you know, be smarter. You should have known better. Which we tell ourselves all the time. It sounds like you learned to have compassion for the small child inside of you.

Yes, 100%. Like, even to this day, I'm 27 years old and I still, to this day, I still feel like that little girl. I feel like it's my duty to protect myself and be that person little Ashley needed when she was younger. You really do feel like it's your fault. Like, or you should have done this differently or should have done that. You blame yourself and you're ashamed of it, but really it's not in your control and the people in your lives should have been the ones protecting you.

Yeah, shame. Shame is a very powerful thing. Right. It's like, there's like a difference between when we feel guilty for doing something bad, we recognize that this thing, we probably could have made a different choice. But shame is like adding some really painful and uncomfortable stuff on top of that. I did this bad thing because I'm a bad person, or this bad thing happened to me and I deserved it because I'm a bad person. Like, in therapy, do you feel like you can remember some kind of shame shift in that sense of shame? Like something that released you from feeling like all this stuff happened to me because I'm bad. What about this process? What about talking about yourself and your life helped you start to shift this idea away from being a bad person? Because I'm hearing you say that you are a good person. When did that change? Like, how does that change?

There's not one moment where it just shifts. It truly happens over time. And within my time of therapy, the two years, of course, relationships, jobs, real life situations are happening. And when I'm acting on them and I feel like, oh, this is happening to me, I deserve it anyways, I'm a piece of crap, you know what I mean? Like, and so you would accept that for yourself, but over time you realize, like, wait a minute, like, I don't deserve that at all. It shouldn't be happening to me. You shouldn't accept that. And once you create those boundaries for yourself and practice it, it does get better.

You know, a lot of people wonder, like, why do we go to therapy every week? What is it about this cadence of whatever? And it's like, why don't we go every day? If I'm trying to solve this huge Problem that's been part of my life for such a long time. And really your life, your healing is what happens outside of therapy. It's just one hour a week. Most of the time. It's like you can't expect this one hour of week talking to someone on the couch or whatever to fix everything. It's talking about some stu, learning some things, identifying feelings and behaviors that you could try to start working on in a different way. And it's in your real life, outside of the session that this transformation is really happening for some people very gradually and over a long period of time. You mentioned you're 27. That's like, you know, potentially 25 years of learning how to be in a particular space in a body. And it's going to take time to like, unlearn, relearn, and start seeing the world in a way that is safe. Right. So what would you say, like, if you had not gone to therapy, you know, where, where would we be? Where would you be?

Oh, my goodness, like, if I never went to therapy, I would not be the person that I am today, nor be the person that I'm becoming. My self awareness has grown so much and I'm able to take care of care of myself more mentally. I'm able to value my thoughts more or just like, again, if I'm negative, I recognize it real quick and I try to change it into something more enlightening and more actually true. Go from false to true.

You know, people come to therapy and over time, after what's called the assessment period, where your therapist is getting to know you and asking you about your family history and like all your school stuff and everything you remember from your family, childhoods, whatever. Once you move past this initial period where you're building this relationship, you start thinking about goals. What are the goals that I want to work on? And so you and your therapist, like, agree on these usually two or three major things that you want to achieve through this process. And usually you're looking for something called smart goals. People talk about this all the time. You want to be specific, measurable. What's not always explicitly stated as a goal is increased self awareness. But I think that's always going to be an outcome. At least I think most therapists are hoping that that's an outcome for their clients. So I'm really glad that you were able to even identify that that's something that's shifted for you is self awareness.

Yes. Honestly, without my self awareness, I think I would be so lost because I do believe self awareness Is the first step. You have to even recognize what you're doing or how you're behaving or what you're thinking about yourself. That's where it's starting, like from recognizing it. So if you don't recognize it, you really can't move forward or even try to get better. You were talking about the assessments, right? And so maybe like every six months we would review and when I was feeling better, you know, I'm doing better. We're reviewing from six months ago. And it was so sad. My heart was breaking for six months ago, Ashley. And she was saying, she was saying, I'm referring to her as another. Honestly, that's how I feel. Like I feel like a new person. Like, honestly. But she was just referring to her like a self. Like unworthy. I'll never get better. Just like it was just very, very dark thoughts. And I was so sad for. I'm like, oh my God. I'm like, that was me. Are you sure you're on the right assessment? Like how I said these things and, and yeah, it's true. It was just like it was a transformation and to reflect back on all of those and like how I was feeling where I am today. It was a good feeling because I wasn't feeling that way any longer.

Yeah. What you said is like exciting to me because you're describing this very powerful component of not just therapy, but just like tracking. Tracking your thoughts, tracking your moods, your behaviors. This is like why a lot of people choose to journal. They like to look back and see how far they've come. Like if you never wrote down or put somewhere where you can remember where you were, it's very, very hard to identify how much better you've become, how much better you're feeling. So in therapy, it's a really like, specific intentional place to be able to have someone else doing that with you, tracking stuff, bringing your attention back to like, remember what you said last time? Because that doesn't really fit with what you're saying today. I'm hearing that you had a great therapist. Really? It's like somebody that great. Yeah. Is with you in this moment, but also taking you back to relevant moments in the past to make connections. This is what helps people gain better self awareness. Because self aware people think about themselves in every chapter and season of their lives, try to relate the past to the present and how that's going to affect their future. And really somebody that's not self aware, it's going to be really hard for them to practice empathy, the ability to feel for another. So can you say anything about like your experience with empathy and whether you've noticed like a shift with that, with your improved self awareness?

Yeah. So I always considered myself an empathetic person, even before then. But there would be times where I'd feel like a robot, like almost incapable of feeling sorry for somebody. I like just, I feel, I feel bad because I'm like, I feel like I should feel something towards them, but I don't. And I, I, I really do. I think that helped me later on down the line to be more empathetic. A hundred percent.

That's like a big life thing. It's like, I think we're all hardwired to connect, to want to be with other people, to have intimacy with folks that are important to us. And how can you do that if you don't even know who you are?

Yes, a hundred percent. When you're really not sure of who you are. I mean, I don't know who I am. I'm still growing, you know, but at that time. But when you just kind of like I would describe myself as a loose cannon, you know what I mean? Like, I couldn't process any type of emotions or receive love. Like, I didn't know what that looked like. I didn't know how to accept it, nor like return it. It really affected how I dealt with relationships, friendships, careers. Just because I didn't even know how certain emotions or certain situations would look like I didn't know what was normal.

We have these wounds inside, right, that I think a lot of us want to heal. We attempt to heal them in so many different ways. Whether it's substance that helps numb these wounds a little bit, or regular sexual behaviors where we're trying to connect, where we're chasing intimacy, but it's still a little bit different. Or, you know, burying ourselves in work, like all this stuff that we're trying to do to feel normal, like you say. What I'm hearing is like a larger acceptance of just you as you are, that you don't have to perform, that you don't have to be like a specific model of someone in order to be worthy of anything. You really accomplished a lot.

Thank you.

What would you say were your initial goals? I mean, you know, past the point of like being forced into therapy. When did it become a choice to you?

There'd be times where I would look forward to therapy and things will happen throughout the week and I go to therapy. I used to go to therapy once a week. I would leave the room the House. And I would just be like, my therapist is gonna get an earful today. Like, I couldn't wait to share what I was going through with my therapists. Like, someone who understand, wasn't judging me, someone who can break it down for me. And that was really refreshing because I didn't, I didn't. I still don't really have that support system family wise. So having that one person in my life that I can trust and turn to, it was amazing.

Somebody that's listening to you, to respond to you, about you. You mentioned, like, I don't have this in my family. And like, even people with very loving, very caring, very well meaning families still don't really always have that with family. Because those good intentions also come with their own baggage and their own feelings and their own agendas of what they want between them and you. Somebody to break it down, just hear you out, help you help. Mirror stuff, right? Like therapists say, like, we're just here to hold up a mirror, right? To help you see, see yourself a little bit better. Because we all go through trauma that. That makes it very difficult for us to like, see past all this stuff that we build up to protect ourselves from future traumas. In therapy, the therapist asks you a lot of questions. What's your sense of, like, what these questions are for? Why do we ask so many questions? Or why do you think that we ask?

So in the beginning, obviously, I'm just like, nosy. Okay? Like, geez, my Social Security too. But really it's come to find out, like, again, holding the mirror up, it's really reflection, like who you are as a person. How'd you become this person? Why are you acting this way? So every question, there is really intention behind it. It's not just some aimless question, like trying to be nosy, you know, like, they're not judging you. So I feel like every single question for my therapist, you know, there was. She was just looking out for me and wanted to help me become more aware of why I was behaving a certain way or acting or thinking a certain way.

Yeah, all the questions. Intention. I like that you used that. Because, you know, sometimes therapists who are just people or just people, sometimes those curious questions or how you would say nosy, they do pop up here and there. But it is like a therapist's kind of duty to refrain from doing that. Like you might be talking about something from your life. And then you mention, like a restaurant that I've been to and my initial reaction of wanting to talk about and make this connection, like, oh, I've been there and I got this item from the menu. Like those things. We often refrain from that because in therapy it is about you. Of course it's going to somewhat be about me. Cause I'm a human and we're connecting as two people and my experiences, beliefs and values are gonna be present in this room. Um, but it's very important for therapists not to impose those things. Right. Or like make you have particular goals or try to get you to think the way that I do.

Very unbiased.

Yeah.

Judge non judgmental. It was very neutral. Like you said. She didn't try to impose her opinions or thoughts to an a certain extent with the thoughts, but opinions, she never really did that.

Right, right. The opinion stuff, we're like, we're taught and trained. Like leave that stuff outside the door. Go to your own therapy so you're really sure of what your stances on a bunch of stuff are so that you don't have to come into a session and argue with clients about it.

Yeah.

Especially in like, you know, heated climates like we have in current modern society.

I can't even imagine going to a therapy session and she's telling me, no, you're wrong. I'm just like, we're having like this debate, you know what I mean? It's not like that at.

Very glad you had that. Because a personal experience, which I think a lot of people can relate to, is we turn to sometimes a best friend, an, you know, older family member, maybe our mom. We turn to these people with the expectation that they will be there for us without judgment, that they'll respond to us in a way that's loving and caring and nurturing. And a lot of times those responses are loving, caring and nurturing. But they're also filled with the judgment the criticisms of, you could have done it this way. It probably would have been better if you thought about it this way. So family, very well meaning, but also emotionally charged. Also like entangled into your life. And they have their own motivations, things that they're trying to accomplish to propel this relationship in whatever direction.

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Begin when you're in such a vulnerable state and you don't know what's going on, and even though maybe a family member has the great intentions and they're basically putting their thoughts and opinions onto you, you're in a really vulnerable state and you might take their advice and it's just totally wrong and totally not the right direction to go. So even though family members are supportive, therapy is definitely highly recommended from my end.

Makes me wonder like what, what big differences you've shared some already, but some other differences that you can think of between going to like a really close friend for support versus talking to a therapist.

So even just When I was a teenager, I turned to my best friend, and it's not her fault because she's not like it. She's just a kid, too. And I'm like, hey, I think I'm really depressed. And she's like, you're not depressed. You're just sad. You're just like, okay. And then my ex boyfriend from around that time, I would try to express my thoughts and my concerns, and he thought I was looking for attention and make little, like, snickers with his friends. Like, oh, my God, this girl's crazy. You know what I mean? Like, psycho. And at this point, you're like, you don't even understand it yourself. She's like, oh, I am psycho. I'm real crazy. Like, I'm gonna show you crazy. Like, you act on that, you know, because that's what you believe you are. And my mom, that's a different story. You know, I tried telling her. I'm like, I'm so angry. I feel this way. I'm like, I don't understand why. Like, I think I need help. And I didn't know what was wrong with me or why I'm this way. I just knew it wasn't normal. And she doesn't even lack or she doesn't even have the depth to understand such a concept. And so maybe she cared for me, but she wasn't the ideal person to try to go for help. And so those were my three closest people in my life. Again, it's not my ex boyfriend's fault or my best friend's fault. They don't know any better. Yeah, but as a parental figure, I definitely needed more guidance and more direction, and a lot of people don't have that. And I think that's another thing that steered me away from wanting to receive any more help just because of those kind of experiences. I'm like, wow, no one understands, and no one's gonna want to help me.

Yeah, I mean, this is what happens when I open up is I'm met with, like, rejection or someone withdrawing or someone shutting down or someone telling me I'm wrong, invalidating my experience, saying that I'm not really feeling the thing that I think I'm feeling.

You feel like you shouldn't be feeling this way, like you don't have a right to, or like you're just looking for attention, or people have it worse, you know, like, why do you feel that way? You. You have no right to feel that way. So that really does affect you and how you portray people.

There are people out There that have it much worse than you. I think that is like someone's attempt to help you feel better because they're like trying to minimize the issue that you're bringing to them or even your friend. Like you're not depressed, you're just sad. I can see that. Being a 16 year old. Solid attempt at making the situation less scary, but not just for you, but less scary for her. Oh yeah, Same thing with your ex boyfriend, like making a joke of this thing that you're bringing up that's actually really uncomfortable for you. A lot of people respond that way because they don't know how else to handle it. They can't hold space for it because they're not really sure what to do. And they start feeling heightened, they start feeling emotional themselves and then their own defense mechanisms start coming out. And some people use humor which can be very harmful to like the people around them. Yeah. And then you know, with mom, it's a lot of moms, they really mean well, but they are also people. And a lot of moms have, I mean plenty of moms have been to therapy, but I think a lot of them haven't. And this thing that you mentioned of like maybe she doesn't have the depth, it's probably, she doesn't have the training, she doesn't have the understanding to help you feel safe in the feelings that you're having. And also, you know, our parents first instinct is like, oh my God, my child is hurt. Have to make them feel better versus my child is hurt. We're going to hold space for that and let them know it's okay to be hurt. Right. And that's like a big difference between parents and a therapist. A therapist is not going to try to immediately put a band aid on it, but it's like, let's like really get in there.

Let's take the band aid off, let's see what's. How bad is this wound? Like what happened to it? Like how do you even get the wound? You know what I mean?

Oh, the wound, bringing it back. I think I forgot to close that loop. You know, we have wounds inside and we do all these things trying to heal, heal them. Ultimately, if you don't heal that stuff, it will end up like bleeding out on other people.

Other people. Yes.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yes.

The gory scene. Yeah, the gory scene of like our emotional blood and baggage just like following us around everywhere. And it's, it's contagious. You know, it's like any feeling is contagious. When you're with other people. And when you're not, well, other people feel that, right?

So, yeah, like, I imagine a cloud over me. It's just raining. You know, have my boyfriend here, he's getting rained on. It poured. And I feel like it was almost my fault. Like, I brought this into your life. Like, you didn't deserve this. I'm just. I really felt like I was bringing people down with me and they didn't need that. And that was another thing that led to why I did what I did. Everyone. Everyone would be better off without me. So if you don't address the help, blood's everywhere.

You know, I think we're touching on so many stuff that's very relatable to a lot of people. And I'm hearing you sing praises of how therapy's been helpful. Like, what would you say to someone that's like, maybe in a similar headspace to where you were before of thinking, like, it's just not going to help. Anytime I've tried to open up to somebody, it led to something worse for me. Any pieces of advice to give to someone that's still very skeptical, resistant, fearful of trying this thing?

Number one, I would say do not tell them how you think they should feel. So if you try to tell someone, like, they're going to automatically tune you out. Like, you're automatically disqualified, like, in that. Like, who are you telling me? Because I. So just listen to them. Like, listen to what they have to say. And I wouldn't, again, put your opinions or your personal thoughts on it. For me, personally, because I have been through it. I would just be there with them. And this is so powerful to me. Rather than, oh, you should do this, I would say we should go to therapy. Like, let me help you find somebody. Because I didn't have that support. I didn't have someone who's going to hold my hand and help me find the help. So for me, I would just hold their hand and try to find somewhere to get them how that they feel comfortable.

And you're, like, feeling, like, emotional because that's what you're doing here, right? You're, like, figuratively holding the hands now of so many people. By sharing your experience and being so open about all this stuff that you've been through and like, rehashing a lot of your own thought process from the past that weren't very healthy. Sometimes people just need permission. I don't know if that's, like, from themselves or from other people to do something good and do something nice for themselves. Nice for me. And while your, your journey to therapy wasn't quite like, I'm gonna do this for me today, you know, at some point you were choosing to keep going back. Yeah. Yeah. And would you ever do it again? Would you ever go back to therapy?

No.

100%.

I already know I'm gonna go back to therapy not because I'm depressed, but because I just need that extra helping hand. You know what I mean? I, I, I definitely think I'll need therapy for the rest of my life. Not because there's something wrong with me or like I'm suicidal again or something like that. Just because it really is helpful. What's helpful about, really helps you understand why you feel a certain way about a certain, certain situation. And I know as I get older, maybe marriage or kids, I'll have those conflicts of, like, I'm letting my child down, I can't provide for them. And, you know, that will probably stem from how I feel certain times today or how I can't provide for myself. And I know that probably will not be the case as I get older, but I'm sure therapy will help me understand that.

So it's helpful for navigating life's everyday challenges. Right. Like, we're all posed with a thousand decisions to make per day, and most of the time we're making those decisions largely on our own. But, and that's the interesting thing about therapy. It's not that your therapist is making further decisions for you, but helping you identify what decisions, like, lie in there already. Like, you already know the answers and the truth to what life is. We all know that for ourselves somewhere deep inside. And I think therapy really helps us, like, unlock this stuff that we've pushed down. You know, things like not having confidence or not believing in ourselves to make the right choices, or not feeling worthy, not feeling adequate. It really makes it hard to listen to ourselves and to hear those deep down truths that already exist.

Yeah, like, you don't believe the truth at all. Like, you can look in the mirror and be like, are you so ugly? Like, obviously, obviously, like, you're not ugly. You know what I mean? But all truths are out the window. And like, you don't even value your.

Opinions when you're dealing with, like, mental health issues. Yeah. So you mentioned you've experienced depression, which does sometimes include feeling sad. But, like, what, how did depression manifest in your life? Like, what made you feel like, this is the word I'm gonna use to describe how I'm feeling to other people. For somebody listening to this Conversation like that might be feeling depressed themselves, but they don't have the words to articulate that yet. Like what would you clue them into? Like how do you know that you're depressed?

For me, I was very, very angry. The moment I woke up, I just filled with so much rage and it'd be to the point where I just want to cry. That's how like angry I was. And obviously you're being suicidal. I don't want to live. That's not normal. Like I just want to end my life. And you're sitting there, have a pros and cons list, trying to think out like, okay, like why should I not do it? Like that's not normal. And just constantly feeling worthless. Like not feeling like you deserve to live. These I knew were not normal. I felt that way as a young child. It started with the anger. That's why I can tell you is it started with anger.

And that's insight because if you ask a therapist, how does depression manifest in youth in small children and anger is actually something that someone needs to assess for temper tantrums. This like really dysregulated way of being. If you're waking up really pissed off every day, that's not normal.

Yeah. And I definitely encourage parents because I see it a lot like if a child does act, all children act out. But if it's like a constant pattern and you're punishing them, I think that's like the worst. I'm like, no, take a, take a moment, listen to your child, try to have a conversation and understand why are they feeling this way. And you'd, you'd probably learn a lot about your child and realize punishing them, sending to them room, making it worse essentially is not the way to go. But getting help, it's probably the parent needs help too. You know, it's a partnership between the child and the parent.

Yeah. Some education around just emotions, how they creep up, like what they look like in kids. I mean small kids especially, like their primary language is not English or whatever language it is where they're growing up, it's play. They understand the world through how they play, how they engage in a very active way outside of just like verbal communication. So yes, like paying attention to kids mood. So you paying attention to your own mood and recognizing something's not normal.

Yeah. And if I like my mom was more aware and more educated about something like that, I probably wouldn't have grew up the way I did in certain ways.

And plenty of parents, they mean well, they really tried their best this speaks to like the importance of education around emotional intelligence and maybe incorporating a little bit more into like standard curriculums at school, how to just like tune into your feelings, how your feelings affect your everyday life. I imagine many of us could have benefited if our moms were a little bit more aware about all this stuff.

100%. Yeah. I don't mean to laugh but some people are really, they really are clueless, I should say. And I really think it's very helpful to start with children or even teenagers. I think that's really where it begins because that's where you start to become programmed to be a certain way and you're gonna move out of your parents house and you're gonna live your life but yet you're still acting a certain way and like you don't even realize it's coming from your childhood. Like you just think you're some like adult with an anger problem or you're just like super depressed and you don't even know why. And that will carry on with you if you don't recognize that you have, you have a, a mental health problem.

And therapy helped you in, in those ways of recognition and you know, connecting the dots between what happens in childhood and how you're relating to other people now.

Thank you Ashley for opening up so much and sharing about your journey. It's really, you know, just sitting and listening to you both have a discussion about the journey you've been on. Also hearing you open up about your feelings as someone who's in the room observing, it's actually really quite remarkable when you get to just be patient and listen to someone reflect on their own emotions because it encourages you to do the same for yourself. And so I know that you know, to the hundreds of thousands of people, millions of people that will listen to this afterwards, I'm hoping that everyone who's listening and watching is also thinking about the questions that Jesu is asking, thinking about the ideas that you're mentioning and are gaining that self awareness and that regulation of their emotions and the understanding of themselves. Because it's strange to sit in on a conversation. I think most of the time we spend our time in conversations thinking what am I going to say? Yeah, like oh, what should I say back to that person? And obviously as we see with Jesu, what she's doing is she's trying not to project her own feelings so that she can truly listen to you. And then I've just been silent for the last nearly 40 minutes, 45 minutes. And that's actually a really Powerful practice.

True.

Because now you're not sitting there thinking, what should I say? Or how do I sound? Or oh, I can relate, or not relate or judging, but I can just observe. And so I think this has been a really powerful practice even for me, to just sit and listen and, and sit in here. I think it's just been a healthy conversation to have a discussion about, you know, the benefits you've seen and the growth you've seen. And I think that's a great starting point for this series and just understanding the benefits of therapy and someone who's, you know, committed to two years. Two years. Right. Someone who's committed to two years of therapy and, and the benefits they've seen. So I'm very happy with the fact that everyone who's been listening and watching has had the opportunity to sit in on a conversation with a therapist and, and see how. Where some of the questioning can go and, and also to sit with someone who has done therapy who is able to articulate and explain their experiences, you know, clearly.

Yeah.

And concisely.

Effy, I know there's a lot of people who are like me. I don't have a family to turn to or at the time, many friends. I didn't have a huge support system. So I really, truly felt very, very alone. And so to take those steps takes a lot of courage. And I hope people listening really take away, like, even though I am, I am alone, like, I don't have that support system, there's still hope for me, like I'm still worthy. And I hope, I really, really, really, really hope that they do their research and really find someone that they connect with. And I do not want them to just get discouraged if they get a therapist and there's. They're not connecting because not every therapist is going to be for you. And I think it's very, very important to find the one that is for you. And I really just hope people who are listening really, really, really, really do receive the help that they need because there's nothing wrong or negative about therapy whatsoever. It truly is life changing and I do not regret it at all. I know I'm going to do it again. And I'm so grateful for my therapist. When we were like, we were on the phone during the COVID times and we were like saying our goodbyes, you know, she's like, I'm so proud of you, Ashley. Like, you really have come so far. And I just started crying because she really was almost kind of like that mother figure that I never really had. And like, someone who truly cared about me and wanted better for me.

Yeah. You're describing so many, like, pinnacles of things that therapists learn about in grad school. Like, you know, psychologists love to label. Label human behaviors with all kinds of words and stuff, but, like, the therapist becoming like a mother figure to you, that's. That happens a lot. Right. It's. It's what we call, like, a corrective emotional experience. This person that is validating of you, that can listen to you, nurture you, kind of show you what gentle love and acceptance looks like and feels like in a really controlled, safe setting. And it's not that, like, you know, therapists are not set out to, like, become your new family or anything like that, but I think experiences that come through sessions can help someone recognize, like, I can create my own family, whatever that means to me. Like, the stuff that I feel like is supposed to come from family, which is love, acceptance, support. I can provide that to myself, and I can learn how to do that.

Yes.

With this other person that can model for me, because unfortunately, my mom didn't or, you know, whatever.

It is amazing. Well, thank you both so much for helping us sit in on that conversation and to observe and learn and listen and just really grateful for both of your honesty and transparency and as if you're guiding this conversation and, you know, asking really amazing, insightful, thoughtful questions to really extrapolate the learnings. And I hope everyone who's been listening and watching back at home, you felt you've got a bit more of an insight. And we're going to be doing a lot of these episodes where we dive into different themes, have different conversations, look at this from different angles, and I'd love to hear your feedback, I'd love to hear your thoughts. I'd love to hear what you learned, what surprised you, maybe. Maybe something you didn't expect or maybe something that you felt reassured by. I genuinely love to hear from you, so make sure you share your feedback in the reviews on Instagram, on Twitter, wherever else you're active. Please do let us know, because I'm always looking out to see what is it that resonate with you, what is it that connected with you? And for those of you who don't know, this episode was brought to you by BetterHelp, which is helping millions of people by making professional therapy more affordable and accessible than ever. And I have shared my own top three reasons why I believe everyone can try therapy. And to check that out, you can visit betterhelp.com forward/jstop3 and so that's better. H E L p.com forward slash J's J A Y S that's my name T O P3 and when you do that, everyone who does that will get 10% off your first month of online therapy when you sign up as well. So that's for our on purpose listeners. And so remember that you deserve to invest in yourself and betterhelp is a great way to start to do that. Thank you so much to Hesu. Thank you to Ashley.

Yes, thank you.

Thank you both for joining me today.

Jesu Jo's input is intended to be general and informational in nature. In case you might hear something on the show that sounds similar to what you're experiencing, please note this episode is not intended to aid in any diagnosis.

Of the mental health struggles in listeners.

If you're struggling, please find a qualified professional to assess and help you with your personal journey.

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