Alli Webb ON: How to Embrace Imposter Syndrome & Ways to Take Small Steps Towards Big Success

This is a iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human on ebay, every find has a story. Like if you're looking for a vintage band tee. Not just a tee, the band tee. You wore it everywhere until your ex stole it. Now you're on ebay and there it is. Same tee from the same tour. The things you love have a way of finding their way back to you. Especially on ebay. Where else can you find that mint trading card you searched everywhere for? Or your first car, the one you wish you never sold? It has to be ebay. Shop ebay for millions of finds, each with a story. Ebay Things people love. It's time to take care of you. Who better to help you do that than the top voices in wellbeing? On Audible, you can level up your parenting, career, finances, sleep, relationships or mindset. The Audible Wellbeing collection has everything to inspire and support you every step of the way. Hear the latest from best selling authors Brene Brown, chef Jamie Oliver and finance expert Rachel Rogers. And you can also listen to me. Plus find all the best parenting guides like Raising good humans. When you listen, you can imagine more for your mind and body. Membership is only $14.95 a month after 30 days and you can cancel anytime. Kickstart your wellbeing journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a 30 day trial@audible.com purpose sometimes you just need to go to your happy place. And there's no better happy place than celebrity cruises. They get you closer than close to the history, culture and flavors of Europe. And now they visit more of it than ever. Their elevated Caribbean escapes keep the island bliss going between islands, from quick three and four night getaways to week long journeys and longer. There's nothing more restorative than the wild wonders of Alaska. And celebrity ships are designed to make the most of every view. Celebrity doesn't just build ships, they build the vacations you'll always remember in the places you'll never forget. Book today and see why nothing comes close to celebrity cruises.

I think delusion is maybe ignoring red flags. Like, no, no, it's going to be fine. What are you doing? Why are you not listening? Those mistakes and those red flags actually are really great gifts. Afterwards you're like, oh, I needed to learn this. Entrepreneur Ali Webb, the co founder of dry Bar, the $100 million empire I've had. I didn't want to be divorced once and now I'm heading into divorce twice. Can I be in love with a person and myself and what I'm doing I haven't been able to figure that out yet.

Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to me. The best selling author and host, the number one health and wellness podcast, On.

Purpose with Jay Shetty.

Hey everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to listen, learn and grow. Now you know that our community is all about becoming happier, healthier and more healed. And whether it's your career, whether it's your relationships, whether it's, whether it's your personal life, we try and focus on all aspects on On Purpose. Today's guest is someone who's excited to share with us what I believe is the truth. And it's called the Messy Truth. Ali Webb, who I'm gonna tell you about in a second. This book is all about how she sold her business for millions but almost lost herself. The Messy Truth is available right now. We're going to put the link in the caption so you can order it once while you're listening to this conversation. And for those of you that don't know, Ali Webb is the founder of Drybar, New York Times bestselling author, canopy president, co founder of Squeeze, Bright side and Beckett and Quill. In 2010, DryBar exploded into a nationally recognized and highly sought after brand growing to over 150 locations and highly successful product line which sold for $255 million in 2020. Staying true to Ali's signature approach to beauty and self care, Squeeze follows suit as an innovative massage concept. Ali joined forces with LA based jewelry designer Meredith Quill to build yet another new company now known as Beckett and Quill. Most recently, Ali joined the Canopy team as president. And I'm excited to talk to Ali because we bumped into each other recently at a soccer game, football game for Angel City fc. Please welcome to the show, Ali Webb. Ali, thank you for being here.

Thank you. Thanks for that introduction.

Of course you had to live it all. As I always tell my guests and I love this. You know, the title of your book just immediately captured my attention because I couldn't agree more that every Success story is underpinned by the messy truth. And we often don't hear about the messy truth. We often don't see the messy truth. Sometimes we don't even want to know about the messy truth. We'd rather in the facade or the beauty or the perfection or the perfect image that we see. And I'm really glad that you're sharing this. So I have lots of things I want to ask you from the book today. I highly recommend everyone goes and buys the book, especially if you're on your entrepreneurial journey. Maybe you want to be an entrepreneur. You're thinking about it and you think about, how do I figure out all of this stuff? So let's start with this idea, Ali, that a lot of our audience, a lot of our community wants to be entrepreneurs. Yeah, they may already be entrepreneurs. Some of them are struggling, some of them are winning. Some of them are still figuring out what they're even going to do. What is the messy truth about starting that no one tells you about starting specifically?

Well, you know, I think that we live in a generation now where we are finally at the point, which wasn't the case when I was starting out, where it is accessible to get to hear what's really going on. There's so many panels and so many conferences where, you know, entrepreneurs are talking about more of the real stuff, which I'm super grateful for. Like I said, 13 years ago, when we started DryBar, that didn't exist. Like, nobody was talking about anything. You know, you didn't have access to founders or CEOs the way you do now. And it's such a beautiful thing that there's podcasts like this and there's places where people who are thinking about starting a business can go. Like, I have a mastermind that's launching next week where it's like, for entrepreneurs, like, there's so much access out there now. But, you know, I think there is still understandably so. It's like, I mean, everybody wants to look good and everybody wants to, like, show their best side. And for me, it's like I've always just been drawn to the, like, you know, the realness. And maybe it's because I've always been a bit of an underdog. You know, I mean, starting from the time I was like a kid, my older brother Michael, who's my business partner in drybar, he was like the overachiever in our family, like, very, you know, kind of more book smart and just, you know, was kind of either always in trouble or always doing something. Really amazing. There wasn't really a lot of in between. And I was kind of a bit of a wallflower, which, if you know me now, that is not my personality at all. But back then I was just kind of observing my brother in trouble or doing something great. I grew up with this. Like, I was just in the background. And I think that as. As I've gotten older, I have felt, like, more wanting to, you know, talk about, you know, my story and, like, how I was, like, a bit of a. I think I have a chapter in the book called, like, the Unlikely Entrepreneur, something like that. I should probably know all the chapters in. But I've always considered myself, like, kind of this underdog and, like, not who you'd expect to succeed. And I think. I guess I have felt called to shine light on that because there are a lot of us out there, you know, and I don't have a traditional path. And I think that at one point it was like, there was this societal, like, you have to go to college. You have to have a business degree if you wanna start a business. And now, you know, there's so many. I've spoken at so many colleges that have entrepreneurial programs, which I'm like, I always get a chuckle out of. Cause I'm like, I didn't even go to college. Like, do you want me to not mention. You know, But I think it's just good to show that, like, you can find success and have success no matter who you are, whether you went to college, didn't go to college, like, graduated high school, didn't graduate, whatever, you know. So I've just felt really drawn to that kind of, like, underdog, like, the person that you just wouldn't expect, you know, to be successful. And so I try to, you know, highlight that. And there's good there, too. And there's a lot of things that I am, you know, I am really good at. But showing, like, a peek behind the curtain to people and that it's not. I mean, I think any entrepreneur who's listening to this knows it's not easy. Of course it's not easy. I feel like I just want to talk about and highlight more of the hard stuff than just the good stuff, you know, because it's. It's completely a mixed bag. It's not one or the other. It's usually like one minute to one minute. Like, you're like, oh, this was amazing. And then you're like, the whole thing's falling apart, you know, I mean, it's literally like that crazy so my mission with the book was like to highlight both. Like, it's really amazing and it's the greatest journey and it's also incredibly hard and taxing and like you don't realize how much it's going to change your life. And I don't. I think that's good that you don't know that. You know, I'm a little bit of like the ignorance is bliss mentality because I feel like the less you know about what you're getting yourself into and I think just that whole mindset of like, if you can accept you don't know what you don't know, you go into things a little like not as freaked out.

Yeah.

You know.

Well, in the book you go into in detail, give us a snapshot for everyone who's listening of what your life looked like when you even thought about starting this. Because that will give us a picture of this underdog, unlikely entrepreneur.

Yeah, I mean, you know, I got married to my first husband when I was 26. I moved to New York City when I was 18 because I didn't want to go to college. And I was like, I'm going to move to New York City. I feel like that will be good college. And that's what I did. And I, you know, I jumped around from job to job and I would eventually go to beauty school in South Florida and then I moved back to New York and, and then I got married and moved to LA and had two babies and was like, thought I had like hit the jackpot. Like, I loved being able to be a stay at home mom. I really felt so blessed and lucky that I got to be home with my boys and I was home for like, you know, about five years before I started Dry Bar. And that was such an amazing time. But I did get that itch to get back out there and start doing something for myself, which was really just like a feeling that I had. I mean, I really wanted to have kids and I really wanted to be a stay at home mom. And part of me thought I'd get really involved in the school and stuff like that. And as I kind of approach that, I was like, no, I don't think I want to do that. And not. There's no right or wrong right. It just wasn't for me. And I've always really trusted my gut and my feeling and I, and I, I stay very close into what feels right and I, and after staying home with my kids, it was about, they were about 2 and 4 when I started DryBar and about a year before we started DryBar, I got that kind of itch to do something, and I started a mobile blowout business, which was, again, just like a way to get out of the house for a few hours, get away from my kids, who I loved, love, loved the whole thing, but just wanted to do something for myself. And I knew, having done hair for so many years, that I could do that pretty easily. I also, you know, had this, like, intuition on that, that if I were to only charge $40, which was like, oh, 2:20, super easy, I'll come over while your baby's sleeping. That was it, you know, that maybe that would be fulfilling for me to get out of the house and talk to adults. I mean, that's the other thing is, like, when you have two little kids and you go to the park all day and you're in, like, kidville all day, I just. I wanted a little bit of a break from that and not just from my husband. So I started this. And it was so perfect at the time. And I remember telling people that, like, I remember it was. I mean, it was 15 years ago, but it feels like yesterday. Cause I was like, oh, it's great. I love this. Like, I'm getting out into the world. It was a great way for me to meet other women. And I would. It also informed a lot of the things that we would eventually instill in drybar, like not doing someone's hair front of a mirror because I was doing their hair in their living room. And so it was just perfect. At the time, I wasn't really making any money, but I didn't. I've never been, like, driven by money. So I was like, I'm just happy to do this. I make a little extra cash. I go and do this thing that I really love doing. I get to talk to these amazing women. And it was kind of like wildfire. I. You know, women would tell their friends and then their friend group, and so it was just grow and grow, which. Which is eventually why drybar came to be. Because I was getting so busy operating this mobile business by myself that I was like, I think I need to start having them come to me instead of me come to them. And that's really how Dry Bar was born. But I was just this, like, one woman show, driving my Nissan Xterra around LA with like, a duffel bag full of tools and hairspray. And, you know, it's funny. Cause it's like, I remember it so well. I could. Could have never guessed it would turn into the life That I have now. I mean, not in a million years. I was just happy to be out of the house for a couple hours, you know.

Thank you for sharing that. I know you've probably had to share that so many times.

No, but I love it.

I wanted you to. Because I. I mean, to me, I'm hoping that so many people are listening and watching, going, that's me, Ali. Right? Like, I'm someone who. Like, I love my family, but I want to do something. I have this instinct that I have something inside of me. I don't know what it quite is yet, or, by the way, I'm doing something on the side, and my friends all tell each other that I'm good at it. And, yeah, I think I could build something, but I'm not sure. What was it that made you feel this is real and it could be bigger versus actually, this is great, and it fulfills my needs of getting out the house and giving me a little bit of extra cash. Because you could argue that already felt like success. And it can be success for a lot of people. What was it for you that said, no, this should be bigger? I can be bigger, and I want it to be bigger? Yeah.

Yeah. Well, it's funny how. And I'm sure you've experienced this too, when you're doing something and it feels really right. And then there's like, these rumblings and this, like, inner knowing of your. Like, wait a second, I might be onto something here. And that's really how I started to feel because I realized I was saying no more than I was saying yes. And I was like, you know, scratching my head, going, like, I'm getting so many calls. And I was pretty good at what I was doing. And so I was like, there's gotta be something else here. And at the time, my kids were really little, and my mom, who passed away eight years ago now, but she was. We used to move her everywhere. We moved, like, in an apartment down the street. And she loved being near my kids. And so that was really helpful. And she was, you know, in our lives. And I remember being like, I wonder what would happen if we had a location, one location? You know, I'm like, my mom could help. I could get my kids after, you know, preschool, like, around three or four. I think I could still make this work. And again, still thinking pretty small, you know, that, like, let me just go from, like, the next step from going to people's homes to, like, opening a store. And it was so exciting, you know, and it was just like, I Tell people this all the time. That, you know, if you're chasing the money, like, I mean, maybe that works sometimes. In my experience, most businesses that I know of, like, it's like you're chasing something that you love. And I never thought about selling the business. I never thought about making a ton of money. I was like, I never even thought about money. I mean, for years I didn't take much money as a salary from drybar. I just loved it, you know, and when you know this, when you love your passion, like the thing that you, it's. And you get to do it every day, you know, it was like, I just felt like this is the coolest thing ever. And I couldn't believe, like, you know, we first opened Dry Barn, so many people were coming and, you know, again, it was like, it just felt so meant to be because this mobile business that I had built and these women that I had come to know in la, and some of them were like, I mean, it's la, you know, it's like producers and actors and celebrities and like, you know, I was a little thrust into that world and, and you know, beyond like the celebrity, just, you know, there was just so many women who were really connected. And when I started talking to my clients, which by the way, were the first people I talked to about drybar, I was like, what do you think of this idea? And they're like, oh my God, it's the best idea ever. But how do you make it work? And there was like, certainly naysayers, but it was such a cool, exciting opportunity and to have women like, being like, you should totally do this. And then we opened that first store and it was so busy and crazy and I, and I just, I loved every second of it, you know, I couldn't get enough of it.

That's such a. I love that and I want to pull from it for our listeners. So something Ali said that stands out to me is this idea of she was taking baby steps. It was just about the next step. It wasn't like, I've come across world domination, a million dollar idea, 100 million. It wasn't like this crazy thought process. It was like, I do something, it makes me happy, clients are happy, let's get a store. And I think sometimes we kind of go from, well, I have a really good idea. It should be a million dollar business, $1 billion business or whatever it may be. And we don't get that next step right. So that's one thing I want to share. The second thing that really stood out in what you said is you asked the people you were serving, your clients for what they thought of the idea. A lot of us ask our friends, we ask our family, we ask people around us who don't actually know how skilled we are at this thing.

Right.

And we're not asking the people who are actually going to be our potential clients. And so the fact that you were asking them and they were saying, oh, I'd turn up there, oh, I'd recommend all my friends.

Right.

We're in. That's a much better person to talk to when you're sharing a new idea. What's the difference, Ali? Because you've talked about now, and in the book, you talk about this idea that you've always been pretty decisive, but more deeply when you go into it, and, and I know you have a. Have a deeper side to you. And when you're thinking about things like intention and intuition and instinct. And you said, I always knew, like, I was always listening for that inner voice. What is the difference between intuition and delusion? If you had to think about how you notice the difference, what would that be for you?

I think intuition is like versus delusion. Because I feel like I'm well acquainted with both of them. I mean, that's good. Yeah, because like, delusion is like something to me. At least how it lands for me is like something that's like, you know, a delusional view back then of Dry Bar would have been like, we're gonna grow this thing to 150 locations and we're gonna sell it for $255 million. Although I did say early on that I thought we would have. But not early. Like in a year in, I was like, I think we're gonna sell the business for 250 million. Isn't that crazy? I mean, I feel like I manifested that. I think it kind of goes back to what you're saying about baby steps. It's like we're doing ourselves a disservice of, you know, moving in this, like, you know, in a delusional path, I think I would say, you know, versus, like, staying close in. And, you know, and I have gotten very into spirituality in the last few years. And one of my very best friends and I talk about her in the book, her name is Paige. And I always say I'm writing her spiritual coattails. Cause she's always in Telus and some retreat and, you know, I'm just kind of like trying to pick it up of what she's doing. And she always says to me, Stay close in, you know, and you have to really think about that and, like, what that means. And it's like, oh, for me, anyways, it means, like, pay really close attention. And I've really started to think about that more and more, especially having had a rough couple months recently. It's like, how does this make me feel in the moment? And I don't think I ever could have articulated that the way I can now. And I think we get older, we're wiser, we go through more things, we read more books, we do all the things. I meditate a lot more now. I do all that stuff now, and I pay really close attention. I don't think I did the way I do now back then, but I think I had it instinctually in me. I just didn't know how to pick up on it, you know, where it's like, now I can almost, like, I can read something or have a thought and like, immediately get a ping in my body of like, no, this does not feel good. Or get a. Like, oh, yeah, this feels really good. And it's fascinating. And the thing is, and I'm sure you, being who you are, would agree with this. It's like, if you get really quiet and you pay attention to that stuff, it's pretty clear, you know, I have definitely been known to purposely ignore red flags in situations which have gotten me into some bad situations. And it's. It's really funny, the awareness that we get as we get older and wiser and we make some mistakes and we learn from them. And so I guess, you know, delusion is like. I think delusion is maybe ignoring red flags. You know, it's like, no, no, it's going to be fine. Besides the fact that, like, you know, it's not, but you're going to. It's like, what are you doing? Why are you not listening? I heard something Brene Brown said. I'm sure she's been on the show.

She has not.

She hasn't. Oh, you have to have her on. She's amazing. And she was really there for me in my first divorce, which is crazy. But she. I just saw something recently where she was like, every every once in a while, the universe taps you. Or not. Every once in a while, when you get to mid age, the universe like taps you on the shoulder and is like, you can't run anymore. And I was like, is she talking to me? You know, and it. But it was. It's a fascinating thing because I think at some point in our lives and it seems to Me, like, it's more midlife. You get that tap and you're like, yeah, I gotta. I gotta be really, like, I gotta pay attention to what's happening. Like, you just. You just can't get away with it anymore, you know? And I think as we're. When we're younger, we can. I don't know why that is. And I think maybe we're just ignoring the red flags and thinking it can just all work out, and I'm such a, like, it all works out kind of gal anyways, which I think is true. And now I've come to realize that those mistakes and those red flags and the things that we don't pay attention to, we should actually are really great gifts. Not in the moment. In the moment, you're like, why is this happening to me? But then afterwards, you're like, oh, I needed to learn this, you know? Again, my friend Paige always says, it's the medicine, you know, she's like, this is the medicine that you need. I'm like, it's always about the medicine, you know? But it's really true.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for. Thank you for doing that thought experiment with me. Intuition, delusion. I really loved your take on it.

It's good.

I loved your taking it. I want to pick out some moments from your book because I love some of the quotes in your book and things that stuck with me. And so I'm going to start with this because it really, you know, enhances the conversation we're having right now about your work. And you says, this is page eight. Though entrepreneurs today face different challenges, more noise, more competition, et cetera, it still always starts with you. Your idea, your skill set, your purpose, and your gut instinct. And you say, what is the thing that you just can't stop thinking about? Which. Which I love that. I love that language to it. But you talk a lot about this, finding your skill set as an entrepreneur, and I think there could be nothing more true about than that. Like, I'm. I'm so aligned with you. And I think often we're doing things we're passionate about that we're not skilled at, or if we are passionate, we haven't thought that we need to be skilled at it. And obviously, you could be doing the opposite where you do something skilled at that you're not passionate about. Sure. And that's what a job is, pretty much. But how do people discover what they're skilled at? Because what I found is that most of us, when we're skilled at something, we devalue it as a skill because it's so easy to us and we see someone else with another skill. And you talk about this a lot in the book about, don't become someone else's story. Don't chase another entrepreneur. Don't try and imitate. But we look at someone. So for example, people will look at me and be like, oh, Jay, like, you're really good at xyz. But then if I'm not aware of that skill set, I'll be like, no, no, no, but you're really good at abc. And then we play this kind of tag of like, no, I don't have your skills. But we rarely sit and go, no, I'm actually really good at that because we devalue what we find easy.

Yeah, that's so true.

Right?

I think it was really highlighted in my business with my brother and my first husband, Cam, who Cam was the creative genius behind drybar. And my brother was like, more the behind the scene business side of it. And I was like, you know, the hairstylist and like the experience. And everybody always asks us, like, is it really hard to work with your brother now ex husband? And that's not why we got divorced and whatever. But I was like, no, it was great because we were all very clear on what we did and what we did well and what our highest and best use was. I had that conversation so many times. They still. I still go back to that. What's my highest and best use always in life? Because I think it's like, really, like, think about it, you know, and we had really almost no conflict. And if we ever. I mean, we all talked about all things together, but if there was ever like a questionable thing, whoever would decide was like, whose lane that was, you know, and that was. We were all very okay with that. And I think when you do run into problems with business partners, it's often because you guys think you have the same skill set. And then that's such a. It's like five year olds playing soccer. Everybody's kicking the ball. It doesn't work, you know, So I feel like it is. It's like the old cliche, like, it doesn't feel like work if you're doing something you love. Which I know has been said 8 million times, but, like, it is so true. And I think it's like, almost feels too easy, to your point. So people are like, well, I've got to challenge myself. And of course, like, you do, and you want to keep challenging yourself, but, like, what a gift in life to, like, Be able to do what you love to do. And I think there's this misconception that, like, you shouldn't do that. You know, it's like, you know, for me, like, when I told my parents I wanted to go to beauty school, they were like, really? Are you sure? You know? And, like, very, like, looked their nose down on it, like, you want to be a hairstylist? And they also had. I grew up in South Florida, and my parents had. Were entrepreneurs, which definitely informed a lot of my. Or who I became. But they had this, like, old lady clothing store, and it was right next to this, like, old lady hair salon. And they were. And they think, in their mind, they were like, you want to work? And I was like, no, I'm gonna move to New York City. I'm gonna do editorial and, like, fashion shows. And I had these, like, grand ideas. I didn't have dry bar at the time, you know, but it was like, that's what I loved. Like, I grew up in South Florida. I have naturally curly hair. My hair was just massive and frizzy all the time. And I was just fascinated by hair. I loved hair. Just what I loved, you know? And so it took me a lot. It would take me many years to finally, like, get the courage to say, like, when my friends were going to college and they were studying, whatever, and I was always like, how do you guys know what you want to do? Very confused by that whole notion of college and majors and all that. And I just loved hair. And that was the thing that I really loved. And it would. You know, I talk about it in the book. That it took me a while to. To figure out again, comes back to, like, being close in, like. I always loved hair. I would spend hours in the bathroom in high school, and I was just. So. I worked at a hair salon as a receptionist when I was in high school because I wanted to get free blowouts and because I loved being around hairstylists. And I was like, this is the thing that I love. And I ignored it for years, you know, and it's like, to be able to tap into that thing, and you can't find a person. There's nobody you can meet and say, what do you really love to do? And they may not tell you because they're embarrassed or they don't do it as a job because they, like. My parents won't approve. My husband won't approve. Whoever won't think it's a good idea. My parents did not think it was a good idea to go to beauty School. But I had enough, like, chutzpah to be like, I. I hear you, but it's what I want to do, you know? And I had no idea it was going to turn into, like, this beautiful life that it did for me. But I was just like, stay really focused. And I talk about that a lot to entrepreneurs that I'm mentoring. It's like, don't, you know, shut all that out. You know, listen to what really feels like is good for you, not what everybody else around you wants, you know?

Yeah. It's almost like that question that's come from what you're saying is, what's that voice you're ignoring on the inside? Or what's that idea that you keep kind of putting away because you're like, that's ridiculous. Oh, that's stupid. And you've heard that voice before where someone looked at you weird because you actually shared your intention or your excitement, and everyone looked at you like, that's not real. Get over it.

And by the way, people did that at drybar, because, I mean, like I said, it was in the middle of a recession, and people were like, how do you make this concept work? It's like, you. You know, we were starting at $35 a blowout, and it was like, you have to do a lot of blowouts to make that business work. And I was like, yeah, you know, but I think we can do it. And I didn't. Like, I literally not. Not great at math, but I was like, I think if we can do, like, you know, 10 blowouts an hour, and we're open, you know, 10 hours, like, I think it'll work, you know? And I remember my brother started, like, putting an actual spreadsheet together and running the numbers. It was like, yeah, if we do 30 or 40 blowouts a day, we'll have a nice business, you know, and of course, we. We never did that little. We always did, like, 70, 80, 100 blowouts day, which was just bananas, but it was like, people were the ones who put it in my head that, like, maybe. Maybe this idea doesn't work. I mean, so many people. And then we started raising money, and, you know, that's a whole other conversation of, like, raising money with, like, walking into these rooms with men in suits who, like, did not understand the concept of dry bar and were like, what? You know, like, how does this work? And just didn't believe in it. So many people didn't believe in it. And it did seem like a tough, you know, how do you make this work? Like, On a large scale, is there enough women who want to do this? Is the price. The price point's really low. Like, margins are really thin. How does it work? And, you know, and I just. I'm like, I'm just telling you. I really, you know, from a gut level, know that this is gonna work. And then you're like, oh, shit, this better work, you know? But it did. And I always felt like there was money on the line for sure. And that's not a small thing, but, you know, I remember when I started cutting hair, and, I mean, when you're starting to cut hair and you have really sharp scissors in your hand, it is very scary. And, you know, it's so funny. Is like, the very first haircut, I.

Would never trust myself.

Oh, my God.

With my own hair or anyone else's hair.

No, it's the worst.

Even if my wife says, will you? I'm like, nope, I'm not going anywhere near that.

Well, the first haircut I ever did in beauty school, I cut someone's ear. And I felt like I was gonna die, and the ears bleed so much, and I thought I was.

When you say, cut someone's ear, how much?

Just, like, just a little nip on the. I mean, it was. I remember it was so traumatizing, I'm sure, for them, but for me. And also in beauty school, you're doing, like, $2 haircuts, and that's where you're learning, you know, I still have, like, nightmares about that because it was, like, the worst thing that can happen. But beside that weird story, which I don't think I've ever talked to anybody about, it was very traumatizing for me, but I always felt like at the end of the day, when I was on the floor cutting and when I was doing all that and, you know, and then when we were starting dry bar, I was like, no one's gonna die if this business doesn't work. Like, which is, like, the worst possible outcome. It's like, we're not doing surgery. We're not. We don't. You know, And. And I. And I always, like, found comfort in that because I was like, you know, there's always a chance that we're going to lose money. In my case, it was going to really be my brother's money. And my. You know, my. My husband at the time. And I put in our life savings, which wasn't really that much, but a lot to us at the time. And, you know, I was like, it's going to really suck, and we're going to lose money, but we're like, we're really smart, capable people and if this idea doesn't work, like, we'll figure something else out. And I think that that mindset of, like, you gotta just like, put it on the line is like, is really why I think I've been successful, is like, not holding anything too tightly of like, yeah, I really hope this works and I really think this is gonna work. But if it doesn't, like, we're all gonna be okay, you know? And I think that's like, I think a lot of entrepreneurs I talk to are like, I have to have this much money saved and I have to do this, and I have to do this, and I have to do this. I was like, yeah, prepare for sure. But like, at some point you're gonna have to just jump, you know, and hope for the best.

Yeah, there is, there is a moment for that leap.

Yeah.

I want to dive into a couple of things here that you've mentioned that I think really stood out. And you talk about this, and we were talking about this a bit offline. It was this idea of page 13. You say, if you feel like an imposter, embrace it.

Yeah.

And I feel like imposter syndrome has been something that a lot of people are talking about.

Yeah.

I think it's something that there are even more people that are feeling than are talking about it. And it seems to be a recurring feeling whenever you're in a new room or a new league or a. A new zone. When you say embrace it, what does that mean? Sometimes you just need to go to your happy place. And there's no better happy place than celebrity cruises. They get you closer than close to the history, culture and flavors of Europe. And now they visit more of it than ever. Their elevated Caribbean escapes keep the island bliss going between islands. From quick three and four night getaways to week long journeys and longer. There's nothing more restorative than the wild wonders of Alaska. And celebrity ships are designed to make the most of every view. Celebrity doesn't just build ships. They build the vacations you'll always remember in the places you'll never forget. Book today and see why nothing comes close to celebrity cruises. Hey, friends, quick question. How do your nights feel? Hatch believes the way you wind down at night shapes how you show up the next day. Self care isn't about doing more. It starts with resting better. That's why Hatch created their Hatch Restore, a smart sleep clock that helps you reclaim your evenings. Think calming sounds, gentle audio and even a surprise. Wake up to start your day right. Check it out at Hatch Co, because better nights lead to better days. When you have to go pick up meds, it can really dig into your downtime because you have to wait in traffic, wait to find parking, and then stand there waiting in the pharmacy line. Amazon Pharmacy delivers meds right to your door fast without ever having to get up and do anything. Your patients and your feet will thank you. Thanks to Amazon Pharmacy, healthcare just got less painful.

Well, I think to your point of people talking about it a lot, they talk about it like it's a bad thing. And I think. I think of it as a good thing. If you're embarking on a position in a new job or you're starting a company or whatever you're doing that's new to you, like, that's amazing, like you're starting something new. You're taking that leap of faith. You're putting yourself in a situation that you've not been in. And that's really scary, for sure, but it's also really exciting and exhilarating. And it means you're growing and you're in this next new phase in your life. And so this negative association with imposter syndrome, as if it's like a bad thing, it has definitely happened to me. And I think maybe because I had never had any real formal training in anything other than hair, where I would start a job, and I was like, I know I'm under qualified for this job, but I'm going to, like, figure it out. And I. And I would, you know, and I guess that was part of it. Like, yes, I am an imposter. Technically. I don't know how to do this job, but you better believe I'm going to figure it out and do it well. And it's no different with entrepreneurship. I mean, when we started DryBar, I had never, like, been in charge of that many people. I'd never managed a salon. Like, I'd never. My parents didn't. I watched them. And I worked for. For owners of hair salons. And I've been a stylist for years. Like, I had a lot of the things that I think I needed to have, but I had never actually done it. And so I was learning it as I went, which was scary, but also amazing. And I also think when you come in again, nothing I could have articulated then, but a term I think we're hearing more and more now is this like beginner's mindset, you know, And I had that when I was when we were starting Dry Bar, because I was quite literally a beginner and running a business, and I made a lot of mistakes, and I had to figure out a lot of things. And that's. That's also the beauty of this book is that I feel like I got an education in this. I got, like, a business degree while I was running a business, because I was having to figure all these things out, and I made tons of wrong decisions and bad choices. I also think I felt it's not necessarily imposter syndrome, but I think I felt this immense pressure because I was the boss. I had to know all the answers, and I had to. If you came to me and asked me a question about the business, I'd be like, well, here's what I think. Even though it wasn't always right, it was just like me having. And I used to think that that was like, oh, you're just the boss and you just. You. The buck stops with you, and you have to. And now I feel like. And how I approach that question now is like, well, what do you think? Which is not something I would have said. And that's like, I think that was all ego because I was like, oh, I feel this pressure. Like, I'm supposed to know the answer because I'm sitting where I'm sitting in this company, and now I'm like, well, what do you think about that? And then people are like, what? You know? And I'm like, well, I don't. I actually don't know the answer, but I'd love to hear what. What you think. But I. I didn't have enough. Like, you know, I was. I was too focused on, like, feeling like I had to be. And maybe that does go back to imposter syndrome. I had. I felt like I needed to know all the answers because I was the boss and this was my company, and blah, blah, blah. Where now I'm like, there's so much freedom in saying, I don't know. You know, like, let's talk about it. And then. And then the culture that you create in a company when you're like, the kind of boss that's like, not a know it all. And people aren't afraid to be like, hey, Jay, you know, I actually think that if we tried this, this and that, like, I'm sure people do that in your company. Like, I'm. When someone comes up to you and they're like, I actually think if we try, blah, blah, blah. And your response is like, no, you know, they're. They're never Coming to you with something again. But if your response is like, oh, that's interesting, you know, you may not always take it, but that beginners. That feels to me like a beginner's mindset of, like, I'm open to other ways of. And I think that there's a part of. I know there's a part of me that gets a little like, you know, and it's also, like, I feel like I know best. And we go into our ego of, like, no, but I know what I'm doing. But embracing what somebody else is bringing to you, I think is really powerful. And that's something that took me a long time to get comfortable with.

Yeah, there's something that you've reminded me on. You talk about this on page 52. You're saying being open to feedback, personal or professional as a practice, a learned intention to stop taking the information, maybe go on a walk, take some deep breaths, and come back open to hearing what someone else is feeling. And I wanted to ask you, what's been the best or most memorable piece of feedback that you gained on your professional journey that's kind of stuck with you where maybe even in the moment, it was so painful to hear. Yeah, but you now look back and go, I believe that.

Well, I think thinking of feedback as a gift, which I learned pretty early on. And I remember, you know, somebody in our company who said it. I heard her say it once, and I was like, wow, that's so profound. Because if you can be open to what someone is telling you, which is so hard, and it is painful, and, you know, I remember my brother saying to me once, like, people are scared of you. And I was like, what? You know, just no awareness on my part. Like, I was like, what are you talking about? You know, what are you talking about? What do you mean, people are scared of me? Like. And he was like, well, because, you know. Yeah, that was a joke. You know, I was. But. But in the moment, I really was taken aback by it. And I was like, I'm so nice. What do you mean? And he was like, well, you know, you walk in the stores and you lose your mind. And I was like, I do that because I'm so passionate, you know? And I was covering it up with, like, I'm so passionate, and I want things to be perfect. And I did. But I. I would learn over time that. That walking in and, like, you know, I would. I would. You could see it all over my face. Because I was like, why are the floorboards dirty? Why is the music not up. Why did this person not get greeted that way? I mean, just for me, it was like, you know, it was like sensory overload of everything that was wrong, which I think is a blessing and a curse. Because you're like, well, I am the person. This is my baby. Like, I am the person who has to be the one that's like, this is not working, and we need to fix this. But I also would learn that people were excited when I would come in the store and they wanted to tell me the good things. And I did start to perpetuate this reputation of, like, ally's coming, watch out. And, you know, part of me was like, I think maybe that's a good thing. But then I was like, no, it's not. And I would learn eventually to, you know, like, I would take notes, and I would then, like, you know, not, like, ruin everybody's day when I would come in the store, you know, And I had to learn that the hard way. But it really did take my brother, probably one of the only few people in our company who felt comfortable enough to say to me, because he wasn't scared of me. You know, he'd be like, people are scared of you. And I, again, at first, I was very defensive, and I told him he was wrong. And, you know, and it was also my big brother. But it really, like, sunk in, and I was like, man, I don't want that. I don't want people to be scared of me. I want people to be able to talk to me. I don't want people to feel like they have to protect me either. Which was also another thing that drove me crazy and still does to this day. Like, I don't to want, you know, and I'm sure you agree with this. Like, you don't want to be surrounded by yes. People. Like, please, no, tell me. Tell me the truth. Tell me what people are saying. I want to know what people are thinking. If I. If I can't ascertain that on my own, you know, so if you have people around you who are willing to give you, like, the feedback, it's like, you're only going to be better for it. You know, it. It stings in the moment, and it still does. Like, you know, sometimes someone will tell me something, and I'll be like, oh, gosh, like, I can't believe that. And then if you're open to it, and then you. You then. Now you have the awareness about it, and. And I'll tell you, I'm like, I don't think you have Children, right? No, you know, for me, I have a 16 and 18 year old, two boys and like, talk about honesty. I mean, I'm really, really close to my kids, but they will tell me things like that are very hard to hear. And it, it is a real practice, a mental exercise for me to not, you know, and my kids used to say to me like, because I've. Cause during the dry bar era when I was, I guess, a little scary, you know, my kids would even say to me, like, we don't know what version you're gonna of you were gonna get, which is like, oh yeah, yeah. And I was like, but I know that now. And now like the power is in my control. Like I can be like, okay. And it literally just happened. I was with. My son is at Denison and University in Ohio. He's playing football and we went out to see him and this, you know, he, he like came off the field, you know, and he was like, didn't really want to talk about some of the stuff that we want to talk about. And my younger son said to me like, just give him a minute, mom. And I was like, what? He's like, just give him a minute. And I was like, oh, right. You know, because as a mom and anybody listening to this, who's a mom, you're like, when your kid isn't like perfect and happy, you're like, what's wrong? What's wrong? What's wrong? How can I fix it? What can I do? You know, we get it. We go into that like mama bear protective mode. And my younger son looked at me and he's like, mom, give him a minute. And I, I did get defensive with him for a second and I was like, what are you talking about? You know, and he's like, you know, and I was like, you're right. You know, and I was like, okay. And I thanked him, you know, and I backed up and I was like, when he's ready to talk to me about it, he'll talk to me about it. And sure enough, he did. A couple hours later, he opened up and it was like such a great lesson and reminder of like, like sometimes, you know, you need to give people space and you can't just have what you want when you want it. And, and that's been a really hard lesson for me. And I think it's also like being at the, at the helm of a company and, and having this like, mentality of like, I can do and say whatever I want because I'm the boss and blah, blah, you can just do whatever that bleeds over into your real life, which, you know, my kids are kind of a living example of that, of, like, you know, and I used to say things to my kids, like. Like, I've been around longer than you guys, and I just know. And they're like, you don't always know, mom. You know, and it's like, you know, so your kids are like, talk about mirrors, you know, and they've. They've. All of that awareness, I think, has been such a gift to me. And that you can get that anywhere in your life from your best friend, from your spouse, from someone who works for you or with you. It's like, if you ask genuinely, they're gonna tell you, and, like, what a gift to, like, get that awareness, you know? And it does sting for a second, and then you're like, oh, okay, I'm going to take that and be better. My best friend tells me stuff, too. You know, it's like, thank you, you know?

Yeah. And it requires that beginner's mindset, that humility to accept and receive it. I know, I know. My wife does it with me all the time. And it's so much easier to defend yourself, to mask yourself, to shield yourself in a false sense.

Yeah.

And what you don't realize is every time you pretend to shield yourself from good feedback, you're just setting yourself up for more downfalls. And it happens again and again. And the ego is so well equipped to keep drawing the sword. And, gosh, it's crazy cutting down everything in its way, and it's perfect at it, because that's its job.

Yeah.

But it's not protection. It's actually your resilience is getting thinner and thinner and thinner, and you're getting weaker and weaker and weaker. I wanted to ask you because you're shifting into that. You know, I love how honest you were about the kind of feedback you get from kids. I think people often talk about, oh, you know, my kid said, I'm not cool anymore. Okay, whatever, that kind of stuff. And, like, that doesn't sting. But hearing this kind of stuff, do you think it's because you. You definitely have a take on this in your book. Like, do you think it's possible to be really materially successful and have a happy marriage? Like, are those two things possible?

My first marriage, which was like, 16 years, didn't work, not because of the business. And I think that it's like, I joke a lot that, like, people are like, you know, it must have been hard to work with Your husband. I was like, yeah, we got divorced, you know, but that's not really, you know, it's a joke, which of course is like a deflection, but more true was that, like, we probably never should have gotten married in the first place. Like, we met when we were 26, and I'm pretty sure I put this in the book that he tried to call the wedding off a month before the wedding. And I was like, oh, no, we are not doing that. And he had some real good reasons for that. Like, you know, the relationship was really hot and heavy in the beginning. It had faded quite a bit. Like the intimacy wasn't really there, but we were best friends. And I would later learn that, like, my parents had that marriage, which they ended up getting divorced too. And I think I definitely emulated my parents marriage, which is just wild when you read all that about how we do that, because I didn't see it at all. But, you know, we. We had kids very quickly, which I really wanted. I was very like, I'm very driven, and I was like, I want children. And so we had kids a year after we got married. And then, you know, like I said, we started the business DryBar when my kids were 3 and 5. So it was like boom, boom, boom, and dry bar felt like a third baby. And then, you know, Cam was doing all the creative and I was doing all the other stuff. And so, you know, we're on this path and. And I knew all along, and so did he, even though we didn't want to admit it, that like, this wasn't, like, this can't be be it. This can't be like what it's supposed to be. But, you know, we didn't want to like, disrupt our lives. And we, you know, it's just like, it's a lot to get divorced, and I didn't want to be a divorced person. And I liked the facade that I had these two really cute boys with great hair and this amazing husband. And he was like the, you know, the brainchild of the creative of Drybar, which is amazing. I was like, I loved the way the package looked, but I knew it wasn't right, you know, the material success. I didn't. I didn't want to shatter the whole image, you know, and obviously, like, I've, you know, come to realize that, like, you just. You have to. And that's the messy truth of it all. And then it was then I made the really hard decision to end the marriage. And then my son, who's now 18 and doing really well at Denison. He went into rehab because he started doing drugs. There's a whole chapter about that. And just my life completely unraveled, you know. And. And to your question, it was like on this hand I had all this success and I was like doing all this cool stuff and like anybody who didn't know me, I was like, I was a guest on Shark Tank, like coolest thing ever. I was like on Ink magazine, the COVID I mean, it's just like all these really cool things were happening and you look at my life like, wow, what a cool life she's got. And then all this success and I was being praised and it was great, but my life was falling apart, you know, and. And so no, I didn't. I wasn't able to like hold both. And then I come out of Grant after about two years. Like it really worked. All the treatment we put Grant through and he. He really came out on top and he really did the work and he's such a. I mean he ended up in a couple different programs. One of them was an outdoor wilderness program in Utah which I actually think every human should probably have to go through. We went to visit him once and he was like making fire out of like, you know, two sticks and he was like. Learned how to. I mean the thing. It was amazing. And I was like, this is really profound. And. And he really came out such a better person on the other side. And. And it also brought me and my ex together because we had to like do group fam. Group therapy and family there and all the things. And it. It was also one of those things that I. I actually thought might kill me because it was so painful, but it actually was a blessing in disguise. I mean the. The inside and the person that Grant turned into and the other side of that is just remarkable. And it brought me in, my ex back together as friends and like we learned how to co parent because of all that. And even my younger son really been. I mean it was all like such an amazing blessing at the time. I wouldn't have ever asked for that, you know. And so it was like the both and. And the odds and the doality of what I was living. And then I came out of that situation, you know, and rushed back into another relationship that was like now, now I'm looking for like real love because I didn't feel like I had it the way I wanted it in my first marriage. Then I jump into that, you know, and time we were like, you know, it was right before that I met him. Like five months before the pandemic, and I was already kind of like transitioning out of Dry Bar in a lot of ways because the company was so big, we had so many people running it now, and what I was doing on a day to day basis wasn't really there anymore. And now I was like, you know, just looking for love and like, and then I found it and I was like, oh, I think this is what it's supposed to be. And I was, you know, madly in love with this man and I wasn't paying attention to anything else, you know, and to any of the red flags that were there that I now really see were there. And so I. Again, to your question, which is such a good one, like, I did. I couldn't hold both. You know, it was like I now I was like stepping away from Dry Bar and now I was stepping into just love. And I lost, completely lost myself on that side, you know, it was like I lost myself in the drybar world and put my love life and even my kids a little bit on hold. And now I was in the other side of it where I'm madly in love and I lost the other side of my own personal purpose, you know, And I kind of enmeshed into his world and I was like, oh my God. And now, as you know, we're going through a divorce and I could never have imagined that would happen. But on the other side of it, I'm like, oh, yeah. You know, it's like what I haven't learned yet, which I'm hoping I get now, is that, you know, I have to keep. Keep myself intact. Like, what do I love and what do I want to be doing? And can I love somebody else while I'm in that place? Because I would throw everything else out the window. It was like when I was building Dry Bar, it was like only Dry Bar. When I was like falling in love with this new man, it was only him. And I lost myself. And like, he was building a business and he was really busy and he had little kids and whatever. And so I threw myself into his world and, like, kind of forgot about myself. And even now, and it hasn't been that long, but I'm like coming back into my own. And I'm like this book and I have all these projects and I'm like, oh, I'm getting back to myself and I would like to have love too, but like, also, you know, and I've so. It's such a good question. I love that you asked it because I. I haven't been able to find it yet. And I get it now. And now I'm, like, anxious to, like, try it out, you know, and be like, can I be in love? Madly in love, have the right kind of love, and with a person and myself and what I'm doing, I haven't been able to figure that out yet. And I think, you know, I think a lot of us. It falls. One of those things inevitably fall, by the way. I guess. I don't know. I don't know how other people's lives are like. You know, I just. You know, it's funny. I was. We were talking to a couple recently, and they were. The wife said something like, you know, our marriage is good enough. And I was like, ooh. You know, and she said it in front of her husband, and the husband was like, like, you know, And I was like, oh, there's definitely some stuff to unpack over there. But it is interesting. And it's like, how do you do that? I mean, I don't know if you guys have figured it out.

No, I mean, I. I don't. The first thing is, the challenging thing about any relationship, whether it's business or marriage, is that there's two minds. And as we know, our mind is always changing and growing and evolving. Now imagine that times two. Are they changing at the same time in the same way?

Yeah.

No. Are they having the same thought at the same time every day? No. Do they have the same dreams and aspirations every day? No. And so we should be more surprised when people get together and stay together than when people separate and move apart. It's actually remarkable that anyone could spend their life with another person for a long amount of time than it is that. That people find it hard to stay.

I mean, that statement in and of itself makes me feel so good because it's like, I've had this shame. I didn't want to be divorced once, and now I'm heading into divorce twice. And I really. I think a lot of my sadness and grief when this first happened was because I was, like, embarrassed. And I was like, of course I get that. I. What? Like, this second marriage, I'm getting divorced again. Like, holy shit. You know, and just all the shame. What's wrong with me? But it's such. Which is why I really love. And I hope people who are listening to that, like, feel that too, because. And I. I was telling you before, like, I get a lot of people who now reach out to me, and they're like, I'm really unhappy in my marriage. Should I leave my husband? I'm like, I don't know, don't ask me. But like, it's a good thing to ask yourself, you know, and, and I do think you're right. It's like we grow and change and, you know, and in my case, I don't think we were having the right conversations enough of like. And we ignored a lot of things. And granted, it was like a really weird time and our relationship got very fast tracked because of COVID and like, we moved in together after five months. I don't know that we would have done that had Covid not thrust this, like, very crazy change into all of our lives. And, you know, I think it all happened the way it was supposed to, but it is a like, yeah, we're always growing and changing. And how do you do that together?

There's two kind of thought experiments that I think can help people with what we're talking about, not as solutions, but as. And it's what you just said. If you're not having the right conversations with yourself, and if you're not having the right conversations with that person.

Yeah.

Everything's going to feel like a surprise.

Yeah.

And everything's going to kind of be a random event.

Yeah.

And all you can do, you can't make someone stay with you and you can't make something work. All you can actually do is track whether you're getting closer or moving further apart. That's actually all you can do is track and monitor. Because like I said, so much is changing all the time. And so all you can do is track change. You can't force a result or a direction.

Yeah.

You can only track change and try and move closer together and move apart. And it's what you said. Like, I think when we think about the word balance, if you think about it, we all have a finite number of hours, we have a finite number of resources, and we have a finite number of amount of energy. So if you had 100% and you said, you've got yourself, you got your partner, you got your work, you got your kids, and then you got your family, and you put 20% into each of those, now you're going to get a 20% result on each of those. That's a balanced life. If we look at it in that way. So it doesn't work, or it may work for someone, but the idea of them being, okay, well, now you got like 80% return on your career, which means 80% of your energy was going into the work part, which means then 5% was going to all the others, which you've got a huge 80.

Yeah, that was me in the dry bar era. Yeah.

Right. And. And. And so when we look at that, we just go, well, how can any human ever achieve.

Right.

Perfection. Any human, including me. Including everyone. We're so. Everyone is so limited that our ability to make everything and everyone happy and successful is mathematically impossible.

Yeah.

So if it's mathematically impossible, let's stop pretending that we're able to nail every part of every life. And let's be honest and say I'm focusing on this in this era or this phase or this month or this year, that naturally means I can't focus on these three areas. And I think people who stay together or adapt or whatever in a healthy way are people who found a way of saying, I understand what you're focusing on, and I get that and I respect it. But guess what? When you're back and you have time, I may be focusing on something else. And so I think anyone who's navigating their relationship in a healthier way, there's no better or worse, but in a way that we would consider healthier, is only because two people are communicating, as you said. Enough.

Yeah.

Where they're just having conversations. It doesn't mean there's a perfect standard or there's complete intimacy at all times or they're having the best, you know, sexual relationships at all times while everything else is going on. Like, it's not possible. It's mathematically impossible.

Yeah. Yeah. It's so interesting, too, because I think you don't want. You're avoiding dealing with something that you know is there. It's like you said, you're not always gonna be on the same page. You're not gonna. You're gonna grow differently and whatever. And it's like, you know, in our case, it was like, we weren't. You have to. Again, not. I don't mean to be like, a broken record, but going back to, like, your inner. That inner voice of, like. For me, I knew there were things that weren't right. And I think now, and I work with therapists and coach, and I have lots of people because I love getting as much. I mean, now I'm like, I love the feedback. Give me all the feedback. I really want to hear as many perspectives as I can and from people that I really trust and admire. And one of the things that I was talking to my coach about recently was, like, because I've been trying to put a bow on this to make myself feel Better about it not working. And I've come to realize I'm like, if we had had the conversation that we weren't having, you know, the. Right. I mean, you're shaking your head because you know what I'm gonna say. What if we had talked about the thing, maybe it would have worked. Maybe it wouldn't have worked. Like, obviously, nobody, Nobody knows, you know, and he and I had that conversation in the aftermath of all of this. Like, had we called out, you know, one of the big things that wasn't working for us early on that we both did not want to call out because it would have potentially probably meant the end of the relationship, and we didn't want that. You know, we were very, like, wrapped up in, like, the excitement and the newness and the lust and the chemistry and the passion and all the things that happen when your brain. I mean, I'm sure, I'm sure there's some science on, like, what happens to your brain.

It's all in my book. Yeah.

Yeah. But, you know, and so we weren't. We didn't have those conversations. And perhaps had we had it, maybe it would have shifted and we could have figured something out that would have changed the trajectory of our relationship. And it may be it had worked. Worked, and maybe it wouldn't have, but we didn't even have the conversation, you know, and that. And that's the thing. It's like, you have to have those honest conversations in work, in business, you know, in business, in your personal life. And if you're avoiding them, it's gonna come back around. Like, you can be sure of that.

You know, I always say there are, like, there are four check ins that I do with my wife regularly. And so every day I try and ask her a simple one. What was your highlight of the day? Or what was exciting today? Which is an easy one. Anyone can ask that. Very simple. Every week or month, I'll ask, you know, is there something coming up that I can help you with? Like, is there something you're struggling with or something that's on your mind that I need to be aware of or conscious of? Every quarter I'll ask, is this relationship going in the direction you want or is it going in the direction I've won? If it isn't, what are we both willing.

Yeah.

To do to put it in the right direction?

Yeah.

Are you willing to do something? And am I. And then every year a simple one of like, well, what's your goal this year? Or what? What are you pursuing this year? And Those four questions or check ins don't save a relationship. They do. What I was saying earlier is they help you track whether you're on the same page or you're completely on another page. And if you're even aware and conscious. And the reason you have to do that is those should be four check ins you do with yourself. Coming back to your point. Yeah, like, checking in with every day and going, myself, what's my highlight today? Checking with myself every week or every month and going, hey, what do I need help with this month? Have I asked for that? Every quarter? Is my life going in the direction that I want it to go in? And every year, what am I pursuing? Like, if I'm not checking in that with myself and I'm not checking in that with my wife, then how can I know myself and how can I know this human? And I think the assumption that I know someone, like, I've, you know, me and my wife have only been together for 10 years, but. But it's. All I know is that she's a constantly evolving, growing human. Just because she's over 30 doesn't mean that she's fully formed and done.

Oh, God, no.

And neither am I. And just like your children are growing up, your sons are changing and growing. I think we assume that kids grow and adults stay the same.

Yeah.

And it's like, well, wait a minute, that's so untrue.

Yeah.

And. And I think that's what I'm always trying to stop my mind from normalizing that. Oh, I know her now. Oh, I know how she's gonna react.

Isn't it? It's such a, like, that fixed mindset. And I'm so guilty of that because I'm such a. Like, I want everything wrapped up in a pretty bow. I'm like, I like things like really neat and clean and tidy, like, physically, you know, that I'm like, I just want to know what's happening and, like, you know, accepting uncertainty and, like, life is completely uncertain. And if you can surrender to that, like. But it's just. It's hard, you know, it is really hard to be like, okay, I'm gonna, like, go with the flow. And I read that. Who is it? Bruce Lee's daughter wrote a book called Be Like Water.

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

You know, and I was like. And I love when I remember it because I feel like I need, like, posters all over my house of, like, all the thing that you just said and all these things. You're like, oh, yeah, you can't fight the current, like you can't, you know, you can't fight it. And it's like if you can surrender to it and like, you know, and that the fact that we are always changing and growing and I love that you said about tracking it and, and I think there was a phase in our relationship when we were doing more of like check ins and we probably had listened to something like this and we're like, oh, we should be checking in more. And then eventually we stopped doing that.

It stops. Yeah, yeah.

And you're like, oh man, we lost. We lost our way, you know, and it's just so easy to do that. And you know, and it, and it really does like straddle the fence on business and personal because I did it all the time in the dry bar era when I would like, you know, stop paying attention to what was going on. People around me and stopped having, you know, those conversations like I really needed to be having and just like would get all like sulky and you know, like, why wouldn't, why wasn't I having this conversation? I was, I was causing my own suffering, you know, and it's like we just as humans do that. Which I, you know, which I think is like the self awareness piece. It's like the things that we use to nurture ourselves, like what we're listening to, what we're watching, what we're reading, you know, if you kind of. Sometimes I'm like, especially in the lab, last few months, having gone through going through my divorce and being so sad, and I'm like ingesting so many books and so many things and I'm like, okay, I've read enough. I'm done. I'm good. But then I'm like, no, I'm not. I gotta keep. I mean, I gotta do at least a couple things a day that like keep me on that spiritual path, you know. And it's like, what's the word I'm looking for? I don't want to say it's like a job or responsibility, habit, you know, Daily practice. Daily practice. Yeah, it's like, like it's so important. It's so easy to lose track of that. Especially when like something, you get really excited or you meet somebody new and you're like. Which is exactly what I do. I'm like, oh, I'm so happy now. I'm like, I got it. I'm good. I don't need to do any of that stuff anymore. Like, you know, you gotta remember and.

We'Re all there and I wanna thank you for being so, like, honest about it and so real and being so messy about it. Because I think that's all of us, right? Like, that's what we're all looking for. And we're all looking to have a perfect start and a perfect end, and we're all looking to have, like, the perfect person and. And the perfect relationship with ourselves, and none of that exists. Talk me through this, because I have so many friends who, like you, would feel shame and guilt for getting divorced, and so they never will. Or I have a couple of friends that have kind of had the courage to get to the other side, but they now experience the judgment or they feel the shame that comes from other people's projection of it.

Yeah.

What is the hardest thing about getting divorced? Like, what's the toughest part about it?

That I've been on both sides of it now. You know, we're the first divorce after 16 years, you know, feeling like I did the love that I wanted and intimacy that I wanted wasn't there. So I was like. It was funny because I. When I first left the marriage, I was like, you know, like, rearing to go. And I was, like, dating really quickly and all of that. And then very quickly, my. The thing happened with my son. And then I realized that, like, dating wasn't so easy. And now I'm a single mom, and at the time, my ex didn't really want to be talking to me. And so it was like. Like my world spun out of control, and I fell into a bit of a depression. And I remember people telling me that, like, even though you're not in love with your ex husband anymore, he still held, like, a space and energy that is no longer there, and it's like a death. And I. For months and months and months, I refused to believe that. I was like, it's not a death. Nobody died. Like, I took it very literally. And I was like, he's alive. Like, I would not allow my brain to, like, understand that, you know, until I finally did. And it's like, you know, when you. It's like when the student's ready, the teacher appears mentality. And I was like. I'm sure a lot of people said it to me, but it was like I was on some show with this guy who wrote a book called Energy Speaks. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. And he was talking about energy and whatever. And after the show, I pulled him aside and I, like, very quickly told him what was going on. And I was. And how, like, I Was, you know, coping with my divorce, and I was in this depression, and he was like, like, listen, your husband, even though you don't love, like, love him like that and want to be with him, he still held energy. That's gone. And that is a very big hole, like, black hole for you to fill in your life. And it's just going to, you know, take some time, which isn't rocket science. And I'm sure other people said it to me, but at that moment, I was like, oh, my God, when it hits, it hits, right? And so that change of life of, like your whole life being one way and then it becoming another way. And in my case, like, my son going through rehab and that, like, very hard time. So it was all rolled into, like, just being hard and I was really sad and, and I, and I was really struggling and, you know, and then the identity stuff started to kind of creep into. And so that was, that was hard, I think, from, like, more of an identity, like a personal identity standpoint was hard and like a rebuilding my life after so long. This divorce was, was quite different. It felt just much more like heartbreak. Like I was heartbroken, like, just heartbroken. And I'd never experienced that kind of heartbreak. I, I, I rec. Now, truly that it's for the best. And I think for both of us, for all of us, it's for the best. But it just hurts so bad that to experience heartbreak like that where you're like, oh, someone just put it really well that, like, trauma is the intersection of unexpected and overwhelm. And I think that's such a simple way to understand trauma. It's like this thing you didn't see coming, really. And then the overwhelm of it, like the boom, you know, and that's kind of what it was for me. I was like, I may never recover from this. Like, that's how, like, devastating it was. And I think, you know. Cause I think I talked to you right around the time it was happening, and I was so sad. It's like, I'm never gonna be okay, you know, And I'm, you know, it's. And I'm okay, you know, And I've. And I've. When the fog starts to clear. Cause it's like, it's real muddy when you're in it. And, you know, I mean, quite literally when you're in fog, you can't see. And it's the perfect analogy to me is like, I was in so much fog around it, and, like, my ego was all, like, bent out of Shape. And I was, you know, and I was worried, like, my kids were going to be mad at me, and I was worried what the world was going to think and all this stuff. And then I was like, now as the clouds and the fog started to clear, I'm like, oh, no, this was not ultimately the right thing, you know, and maybe in some universe, like, had we had these conversations, we've done this thing, maybe it would have been right, but it just wasn't. And this was the way it all went down. And I realized that, like, oh, there's a lot of lessons here, and there's a lot of medicine, and I've learned so much, and I'm so grateful for it now, you know, Like, I'm still coming out of the anger of it a little bit, but I am ultimately just really grateful for all the lessons that I've learned. And I think I said this earlier. I like who I am on almost every level now more than I did then. I had. It was a lot of tough lessons I had to learn. And I was looking at myself in this lens that I had not looked at myself through of, like, why he made that decision and why he didn't want the marriage anymore, which is just. I mean, you can imagine. I mean, you put yourself in those. In that for a second. If your wife was like, I want a divorce right now, you. You would just be like, it's devastating if you're, you know, in love with somebody. But then when. And so I was, like, trying. I've tried to now put myself in the very painful place of, like, why. Why didn't he want to be with me? And. And, sure, like, not. Not to go down the rabbit hole of, like, I'm a terrible person and I'm not worthy. It's not that. It's more of, like, let me see what. What the things were that I didn't like about myself that I can now see through his eyes. And this is not a conversation with him. This is a conversation with me and how I perceived a lot of things and the way I acted and the way I showed up a lot that I don't like, you know, that I'm like, oh, I don't ever want to show up like that again. And what a gift and what a lesson to, like, be this better version of myself now. So to answer your question, those were, like, the hardest things of it, but it is. I'm literally living proof that you will get through it. And everybody kept saying that to me, and I would grasp onto that, like, like when people would say, you're gonna be okay, it's gonna, I promise you're gonna be okay. And I would like hold onto that. Like, thank you. I needed other people to say it to me. Cause I couldn't find it in myself. I could, I didn't believe it. But if enough people said it to me, like, I promise you. And so many people said that to me, I promise you you're gonna be okay. You know, it's a beautiful thing to have like a community of people around you that will tell you that and that you. And I'm like, are you sure? Like, like, do you know? And they're like, I know you know, and it's lofty, but it's true, you know?

So you know what I find so hope giving about your choices is that you turn towards people, things, ideas that would help and support you. And I think that that's the hard part. Like it's so easy and it's natural and should not be judged at all. But it's so easy for you to go off the rails and go in different directions. And the fact that you had the inner wisdom and the, the intuition to say, actually I'm going to turn towards advice and therapy and coaching and insight and learning and reading and hearing this message from a supportive community, like that's what I want people to take away because I want you to hear that, that that's the choice we have to try and make. And something you said, this concept you're talking about, the intersection something sparked for me as you said that. And I was going to complete your sentence, but I didn't want to because.

You knew what I, you know.

No, I didn't know what you were gonna say. And that's why I waited because, because I didn't know what you'd read or heard, but I was thinking about it that when I heard the word. When you think about trauma or even like a trigger that eventually leads to trauma, it's actually the intersection between an unexpected event, but a familiar feeling. And so there's what you were talking about earlier as well, like how you repeat your parents marriage. Like the idea that it's an unexpected. Because you didn't think you would ever do that. But then it's a really familiar feeling and you're like, oh, I, I feel that. Or like I'm going through a divorce, someone's asked me for a divorce. It's an unexpected event, but it's a familiar feeling of I don't like myself already. And this is a reminder of something I know deep down.

Yeah.

And it's that familiarity with that unexpectedness that completely converges to create such disharmony and misalignment in terms of.

Yeah, it really does, you know, because you're like. And it's amazing when you have, like, a great support system around you telling you that. No, you're a good person. Like, you know, my best friend, and she would tell me, like, we would. Yes, you have culpability here, you know, and we would. She knew it. My relationship very well because she's my best friend. But no, you're not a bad person. You know, there are things that you had to learn about yourself, and there are things that, you know, you want to change, but there. It doesn't mean you're a bad person. And it's hard to live in that duality of, like, beating yourself up and the shame that we can put on ourselves because this marriage failed. And I'm like. Because in the beginning, I was like, this marriage failed. I'm a terror, you know, I'm a terrible person. No one's ever gonna love me again. Any. Any man I'm gonna date is gonna be like, oh, you were married twice. Sorry. See ya. You know, which isn't true, you know, but it's. It is the things that, you know, we do, which, you know, I have spent a lot of time. A lot of the stuff that I read is on, like, you know, mindset and the brain and how powerful the brain is and how we can change our thoughts and. And that stuff's also fascinating to me, you know, like, that you can. We have control. I didn't believe that until now. Like, until very recently, I was like, it is what it is, you know, but now I'm like, oh, we can change our thoughts and we can, you know, decide. And. And it's like, there's a. To me, there's like a. Well, you still gotta grieve the thing.

Yeah.

But I can also, because I was like, you know, I was. I started listening to Joe Dispenza.

You know him, of course. Yeah. He's been on the show four times.

Oh, right. I think I might have discovered him through show, actually. I love that guy, and I love what he says, you know, And I. But I. I had the people be like, yeah, his stuff is great, but, like, you still have to grieve the stuff. Because I was like, I'm just gonna believe this, you know? And it's like, but there's still the grief over there. And I think that's Another challenging part of, like, anything like dying is that the grief your body physically needs to go through if you change your mindset too fast. And, like, you know, so it's kind of an interesting. I think it's a little of both. I'm really fascinated by the whole thing. The brain can do.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. When you look at grief and loss, it's like there's the grief and loss of that person.

Right.

And then there's the grief and loss of the person you were with that person.

Yes.

And they're two different things. Because you were a particular type of yourself, there was a part of yourself that was connected to that individual. And now not only is that person gone, that part that you'd created with them has also gone.

Yeah.

And it's no longer existent. And so there's so. Identity. So layered is such a fascinating subject in and of itself. And it's like you weren't complete in the first place either. And so there's. There's just so many layers to it that are so challenging. And all of these things that you're talking about, whether it's your work, your marriage, your kids, they put a spotlight onto all of this.

Yeah.

And all the gaps. What would you say was the most important lesson you took away from your first relationship and then your second relationship? Because you've just. You were talking so much about. It was all about lessons I had to learn. What would you say was the first one that you took away from the first, and then from the second, what have you taken away? What's been the big lesson that stayed with you?

You know, I think for me, and it's pretty vulnerable to say, but, like, it was like, oh, I think I rushed into both of my marriages because I didn't want to be alone, and I wanted to be in a relationship, and I just wanted to be in a relationship. They were right enough. I don't think anything's ever perfect, of course, but, you know, I realized there were things in both of my marriages that weren't, like, exactly what I wanted them to be. And again, it's a hard thing to say because it's like nothing's ever exactly what you want it to be. With some of the things that were happening with us, I think I actually was pretty open and honest about them. But what we weren't open and honest about was, like, what I actually needed it to be. And if it wasn't going to be that, like, then it probably wasn't going to work. And we both needed to, like, come to terms with that. So, you know, I think the lesson is, like, really level setting what you need and what that other person needs, not just what you need. Like, sometimes you have to be the one that's willing to say, like, I don't think this is gonna work because, blah, blah. But, like, to me, I don't think I've ever been strong enough to be. Like, I'm completely in love with you, but I don't think this relationship is gonna work. Like, who can do that? That's so hard. I'm sure people do. You know, it's like, I think about it, like. Like, so silly. I think, just because I've watched so many movies in my life, like Legend of the Fall. Did you ever see Legends of the Fall? You know, I mean, it's like, it just. It just. It came to me recently. I was like, you know, you watch one of those movies and, like, you want the, like, the love story to work, and then it doesn't. And you're like. And you. You walk out of that movie, he's like, so sad. And you're like, I just wanted them to be together, you know, and that's how I feel in the second marriage. Like, I really wanted it to work. And as the viewer watching the movie, you're like, I know it wasn't right and it wasn't supposed to be. And it's like, you know, and that's how I felt. Like, Legends of the Fall, you know, it's like, Bradford, I feel like that.

In La La Land.

Oh, yeah. Oh, my God, that's even better.

La La Land.

Like, why weren't they together at the end? You know, you're. And you watch that movie, and I've watched it a couple times, such a great movie. And you're like, you know, she marries that other guy and you're like, sorry for anybody who hasn't watched La La Land. It's been a while, though. Yeah. And it's. That is really how it's, like, landed for me in this. Like, sometimes, like, what we want to work just doesn't, you know, and you have to just learn to accept it. And I think that's. That's been the big lesson for me is like, you know, a lot of people and people close to me know and have said to me in the aftermath of this, like, you've. You've had things work out for you pretty well most of your life, you know, And I have, and I'm really blessed and lucky in that way. And this has been, like, one of the first things that, like, didn't work out the way I wanted it to, and I couldn't control it.

It.

You know, no matter what I did, I couldn't change the outcome. And like, oof, that's rough. You know, And I'm sure. And I know a lot of people have dealt with that on a much bigger and harder scale than me. And. And so that was a real lesson of, like, surrender, of, like, you just don't get control. You know, I look at my first marriage and think that, like, we were married for so long, and for so long, I didn't have that, like, electric chemistry love that I wanted, but yet I had these two amazing kids and I built this great business. And so, like, that was enough for me, you know, in this stage of my life, I feel like I actually want more of it all now. You know, where I was always like, well, I have this. I don't have that, but I have this. And now I'm like, I want to do something that I really love and feel passionate about for myself, and I want to have a great love, too. And now I'm trying to find both.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, Ali, like, what I really appreciate about you, honestly, this conversation, the book, is like, you're the real deal. Like, a lot of people will say they want to share their messy truth, and they want to tell what's really going on. And I think it's almost like we're still trying to do it because it sounds and looks vulnerable, but it isn't. And that's not. You know, And I think that hearing from you today, all I've heard is the messy truth. And it's not been. I can't think of anyone who's listening to this that that isn't going to feel comforted, supported, held, and feel connected to your journey in some way. I don't think it's mathematically, spiritually, emotionally possible for someone to master every area of their life perfectly at all times. I just. I just want to throw that out there because we still keep putting it up. When we say things like power Couple. When we say things like. Like, oh, my God, the perfect match. When we say things like, you know, we don't realize how many ideas we've put into the world. Yeah, that. Oh, my God. Did you know they're both billionaires now? And they're both. And it's like, you have no idea just how many ideas you're. We plant seeds in people's minds that these headlines exist in reality.

Yeah.

And if you're someone who knows anyone, you know that the headline is so untrue.

Yeah.

About everyone. And that doesn't mean people can't have healthy relationships. It doesn't mean people can't have happy relationships. But do people have perfect relationships? No. And do people have perfect businesses? No. And do people have perfect anything? No. And so it's. It's a mindset that we've all been so conditioned to believe. It's why we feel sad when Ryan Gosling doesn't end up with Emma Stone. Like, it's. There's a. It's because we've been taught that that is the perfect ending. That is the perfect ending. And there's so much wiring that we have to uncross, and that's the work you're doing. And I think that. That that's what I'm so appreciative of watching and observing you on this journey, is you're so courageously and bravely doing the hard unlearning.

Yeah, There's. It reminds me of, you know, I'm sure you're familiar with Michael Singer and, you know, until they saw. Yeah, yeah. There's been a few books that I'm like. I've listened to on repeat. You're just like, I just got to keep listening to. To this to get, like, through the day. It didn't sink into me until I started thinking about the whole movie thing, which was like. He was like, you know, if you're in heartbreak or you're in sadness, he's like. He equated it to. Again, it only connected for me recently, not when he said it, but this, like, idea of when you watch a movie and you get sad about something, it's like you.

And.

But then you tell all your friends about it, you talk about it. It's like you almost like the sadness and the emotion that it brings in, but it's just like, when it happens to you, you don't like it quite as much. But if you can put yourself in that, like, it's just your movie, you know, and you're just watching it, and you're not gonna feel sad forever. You know, it's such a good perspective of it. And it's funny how it's, like, come full circle for me of, like, oh, this is my sad movie, and it's sad, and then it's go. And. But it's also okay, you know?

Yeah. And it's almost like. Just like a movie. When you walk in and watch one part of a movie, you don't get the full picture. Yeah.

Yeah.

So you walked in on a sad scene, or you walked in on a scene where one guy's chasing another guy, and you think the guy being chased is the bad guy, but actually it's the good guy. Like, there's just so much.

Right.

We look at people's lives in Snapchat.

Yeah. Yeah.

You can't tell who's what and who's who and who's the villain and who's the hero. And. Yeah, becoming an observer in our own life is so hard to do. But, Ali, we end every episode of On Purp Purpose with the final five. And so these are your final five. They have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. I will ask you to go off if I feel like it. So question number one. What is the best entrepreneurship advice you've ever heard or received?

Progress over perfection. You know, I think that we, as entrepreneurs, we get stuck in this, and I see it all the time of like, oh, I can't start this because I don't have this, and I don't know this, and I don't have enough money. I don't have this. But, like, just start. And, you know, you'll. It's. It's never gonna. I mean, we just. We've just talked about this. It's never gonna be perfect, but just, like, just go. It'll. You'll. You'll get it. You'll figure it out as you go.

And I think that's what people don't realize that I fully agree with you. And that's where the mistakes are made. But the problem is there's no other path. So if you just waited, waited, waited.

You never get anywhere.

You never make any mistakes, but you never get anywhere. And if you start and you stumble, you will make loads of mistakes. And that's what kind of exposes you. And there's all these flaws and everything, but you got somewhere, and it's that awkward messiness.

Yeah. And it's like, you. It's hard in the moment. Like, anything that's, like, worth anything is hard in the moment. You know, it's like, the mistakes are hard. It sucks, but you learn from them. And it's very cliche, but it is so true, you know? And you're right. If you don't get into a relationship, like, you know, I have a friend who, like, is, like, hasn't gotten to a relationship because she's kind of scared. I'm like, you just. Just. Just go. And even if it's not a good One, just go and, like, learn from it, you know, go on that date, you know?

Absolutely. Second question. What is the worst entrepreneurship advice you've ever heard or received?

It's interesting that earlier you pointed out how I, you know, I took the advice from the women that I was serving in my mobile business. What I didn't do was take the advice from, like, a bunch of men who didn't understand this business, you know, and I'm not a big fan of, like, decision by committee.

Yeah, yeah.

And not to say that I don't want, like, trusted people around me to help me.

No, no, I get what you're saying.

Yeah. It's like, I don't believe in this. Like, let me just ask a million people and then figure it out. Like, I. I love using, you know, Steve Jobs, obviously a brilliant, brilliant man. It's like, nobody knew that we didn't know we needed iPhones. And maybe we don't need iPhones, but, like, we sure love them, but. But we didn't know we needed them.

No, I know what you're saying.

Yeah. Like, even the. I feel like I saw a preview of the new movie coming out about the founders of blackberries.

Oh, I wonder. What's that? I didn't know that.

Oh, cool. Okay. I know I saw it. I'm pretty sure I didn't dream it. And it. Because, you know, the story. The story is really fasc. Like, I. Like, I think the premise of it is that the founder of BlackBerry. This is so apropos of what we're talking about. It's like the people in his company came to him and said, like, I think there's something coming out. We need to change from what we're doing and, like, go into this smartphone world. And he was like, no, that's not going to work. That's not going to happen. And everybody in the company was like, I'm telling you, it's going to happen. And obviously we know it happened and BlackBerry went away. Which, by the way, my brother, like, had the last BlackBerry standing, as he loved the little buttons. A lot of people did. And BlackBerry was, like, revolutionary.

I had one. Yeah.

Of course, they were amazing. They were the first thing, you know. But the story, as I believe it's set up in the preview, is like, that company could have taken the similar path as iPhone did, but they didn't. And again, I'm loosely remembering the story, but I just think it's really fascinating that sometimes you gotta just like, try something and see if it's gonna work and see if people are gonna want it. And I've always been a massive fan. Fan of Steve Jobs, and I'm like so many others and the iPhone, and, you know, it's like. It's just so cool, like this, you know, like, he invented this thing that became this thing, you know? And so, you know, I feel like. Don't ever get too caught up in what people think of your idea.

Yeah. Yeah. There's. You remind me of a famous quote from Henry Ford. He said, if I would have asked people what they wanted, they would have said, faster horses.

Yeah.

And. And, like, that was the mindset.

I mean, that's great, because that is what it is.

If you do that committee and that focus group.

Yeah.

You can't necessarily think beyond what you see.

Yeah. And, you know, and so many ideas don't make in. So many ideas fail, and lots of them don't work. But, like, somebody's got to try. We wouldn't get anywhere, you know?

Absolutely. All right, question number three. What is one habit, mindset, or practice that you believe every entrepreneur should try.

To develop some sort of awareness practice, you know, whether it's through entrepreneurship. Like, I listen to your meditations all the time. Yeah. And I've gotten into this place of every morning before I. Not. Not always, but most of the time, I. Before I, like, get on my phone and check all my stuff and do all the things. Like, I, like, keep my phone on sleep mode and get into a meditation while, like, I'm still in bed. And I think that, like, quiet time in the morning. And then I'll usually, like, write for a little while. Not even, like, a page, you know, just something to get, like. Like the cobwebs out almost, you know, And I think it's. I think it's just important as a human, but, you know, as a. As an entrepr. Just, like, you know, like, level set yourself. And I. And I really try to do it before I go to bed at night, too. You know, I always go to sleep now, whether I'm really tired or not, to, like, some sort of, like, sleep meditation. I think I only catch, like, the first, like, five or ten minutes.

That means it's good.

Yeah. But I really love that. And I never had a practice like that before, and I'll tell you, I never had a practice like that until my. My separation happened. And I was like. Like, you know, I'm by myself. We used to, like, watch TV and then fall asleep. And, like, again, that was. That's, like, one of those things that I'M like, I'm so glad. I. I almost never turn my TV on in my bedroom anymore. And I know that probably a lot of people don't believe even in that. And I'm actually about to move. I'm like, do I want to put a TV in my bedroom? Because I feel like I almost never watch TV in my room anymore because by the time I get in bed, I usually want to read, I want to do my meditation, I want to write. And by the time I do all that, I'm so tired. And I also. I don't know, I pick up so much random information, but I heard somewhere somebody said it. Maybe it was you. Who knows? Because I watched so much of your stuff, but, like, by 10:30, you should be off screens. I think it was maybe Huberman who said it, and. Because from 10, 10:30 to 4, it's like your brain starts to go into depression again. I don't remember the science, but I was like, whether it's true or not, I like this. Like, I want to be off my devices by 10:30. And so that's really my goal now, which I used to stay up and watch TV till, like, midnight, you know? I'm so glad I don't do that anymore. I feel so much better. I mean, I was also on a mission to, like, I got to feel better here. Like, I got to get out of this depression and the sadness, so I better do everything I can do. And now I'm like, oh, I'm not really that sad anymore. I'm not really. I'm not sad anymore, but I think I should still keep doing these things, you know? And so that, I think is important to have that kind of practice. And I really have come to love. Love it.

That's beautiful. I love it. All right, question forum five. Question number four. How would you define your current purpose?

That's very clear to me right now is, like, giving back, being of service. Like, I feel really called to, like, help others in lots of ways. Like, I'm. I'm starting this volunteer program at chla, which I feel really called to. I'm looking at doing some stuff with animals, and I do a lot of mentoring for other entrepreneurs. And, you know, in some things, there's. There's, like, you know, money involved, and I'm speaking at things, and I, you know, and I think that that's okay. Good. And then there's some things I'm just donating my time, but it's all in, like, in the name of service.

It's beautiful.

For sure, right now.

I love that. All right, fifth and final question, which we ask to every guest who's ever been on the show. If you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

Oh, to be kind. We're just so divided because of, you know, it's like. I mean, I think it's deeper than that, but it's like this notion of, like, you know, even I said, I read something the other day that was like, anger is just grief. We had to, like, it was just, like, innate in us to be kind to other people. Like, you imagine what kind of world it would be. So much better.

Well said, everyone. The book is called the Messy Truth, How I Sold My Business for Millions But Almost Lost Myself by New York Times bestselling author Ali Webb. You can grab the book right now. It's out right now. Share it. It make you an ex book club pick. Discuss it, dissect it. I mean, if you want to have a real entrepreneurial story and journey in your hand, this is the one to have. Ali, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

This is amazing.

Genuinely being so open and honest and courageous in your own life and here. And I look forward to continuing our. Our new relationship. Very grateful for it. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for having me.

If you love this episode, you will also love my interview with Charles Doohill on how to hack your brain, change any habit effortlessly, and the secret to making better decisions.

Look, am I hesitating on this because I'm scared of making the choice because I'm scared of doing the work, or am I sitting with this because it just doesn't feel right yet? Hey, it's Joel and Matt from How To Money. If your New Year's resolution is to finally get your finances in shape, we've got your back prices, they're still high, and the economy is all over the place. But 2026 is the year for you to get intentional and make real progress. That's right. Yeah. Each week, we break down what's happening with your money, the most important issues to focus on, and the small moves that make a big difference. Kick off the year with confidence. Listen to how to Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When you feel uncomfortable, what do you put on Biggie? You put on Biggie when you feel uncomfortable. Cause I wanna get confident. This is DJ Hester Prynne's Music is Therapy Therapy, a new podcast from me, a DJ and licensed therapist 12 months 12 areas of your life Money, Love Career Confidence this isn't just a podcast. It's unconventional therapy for your entire year. Listen to DJ Hester Prynne's Music is Therapy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of.

Anybody around you, what kind of life would you have?

Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious mind games. A new podcast Exploring NLP AKA Neuro Linguistic programming. Is it a self help miracle, a shady hypnosis scam, or both? Listen to mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an I heart podcast. Guaranteed human.