How To Get The Most Out Your Life & Live A Life That You're Remembered For With Zach Pogrob + Insights From Running 52 Miles Overnight Through New York City

Let's go. I love the fist bump.

Okay.

That's what I mean. You know what you're doing.

We'll start there. Zach Pogrb, welcome to the Running Effect podcast. Welcome back. How you doing, man?

Let's go. Round two. I'm ready.

It's funny because when we talked in January, at the end of it, I think we were both fired up, but I was certainly super fired up. And I was like, man, we got to. We got to do round two in person. You texted me last week saying you'd be in Austin. It coincidentally happened that I was visiting at the same time, so. Look at that timing, bro.

Meant to be that timing.

I want to ask you just to. Just to start out a question. You've been. You've been killing the runs recently. I want to hear. July 19, 2024, 8:30pm what's going through your mind?

Was that the 50.

That was 52 miles, freaking all around New York City. What do you. One minute before you started, Was that the plan? Like, what, Take me through your mindset?

Yeah, that was. I did my last marathon May 5, and then had some injuries, and then just, like, slowly got more obsessed with running as far as I could and increasing weekly mileage. Like, if. You know, it's very addicting to, like, watch that freaking Strava graph go up, and it's like, 80 miles a week, 90 miles a week. And the weekend before that, I had done three marathons in three days, which was really fun, and it was hard. But then I was like, what's next? And I had a guy visiting New York, this guy, Hector Rodriguez, Legend. He does a lot of ultras, does a lot of crewing. And he was visiting. He's like, let's do something while I'm here. Whatever you want to do. I'll crew you. I got you. And I'm like, are you sure? He's like, yes. And I had the idea of running. I thought it'd be cool to run from sunset to sunrise in New York, which is like, nine hours.

And so the plan was time, not even distance.

Yeah, first. At first, the plan was time, and then I started to look at, like, okay, what's my pace probably gonna be? And then the plan became nine hours minimum and have to hit 50 miles. And it. It kind of aligned perfect. It would align perfectly as long as I didn't, like, die or bonk completely. And it did end up. I ran, I think, 52 miles in about nine hours. And, yeah, it was one of those things where it's the same thing with the weekend before you commit. And then for me, it's just like your brain turns off and you don't think about it. You just accept that it's going to happen. You start your watch and it just happens. I don't know. It was a weird experience that I run. That was my first time doing more than 33 miles. That was my last kind of furthest. And yeah, it's a wild feeling being an hour into a run, which is like, that's a good run and still having eight hours left. The wildest moment was being four hours in, which is long. That was the longest I've. Almost the longest I've ever ran. You still have five hours left. And running on time versus distance is very different as well because, like, if you run via distance, it's just your brain is used to that frame, but once it's time, it's like, oh, there's no escaping it. It's like I can't run faster to finish it. And so, yeah, it was interesting. It was interesting. I'm not going to say it was like the best night of my life. And I'm not even going to say it was like the hardest. It was just a strange experience. It was like. I described it as like nine hours of nothingness, which is, I think, a lot how a lot of runners who do a lot of ultras experience it. But it was cool. I like pushing myself and knowing I could go do that.

What was the biggest thing you learned about yourself during those nine hours? In reflection.

That I could. I'm capable of a lot when it comes to running and ultras. And it's really just whatever I want to do, I'll turn my brain off and go do it, which is like a good feeling to know that I'm capable of that. Because until you prove it, it's just in your head. And one thing we said which was interesting, it's like your brain just adjusts the pain and how you perceive it is totally just based on what you set. So halfway through the pain I was feeling for 50 miles, if I'd said 100 miles, I would have probably felt the Same way at 50 miles. Do you know what I mean? Like, I would have done it. And it's just like what you go out for determines how hard it is. And it just makes you realize that it's just a matter then of like, what goals you set. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah.

A part of the journey of that run that I wanted to ask you about and I could be mistaken here, but I'm pretty sure I saw this on your story or something or Strava or whatever platform that you ran through Central park and you didn't realize that Central park gets closed and so y' all were running away from the cops or something?

Well, yeah, that was. That was true. I didn't realize it. It makes sense that it closes. But, yeah, like, the cops stopped my friend. Then we just decided to keep running through it. Best was on the west side Highway. The west side highway, which, if you know New York, that's like this path, this running path on the west side where everyone runs. I figured that would be open. Like, it's like you could run there at any time. And we were running there at, like 2:00am and there was, like, cops there or patrol, whatever, and they pull off the bike. So Hector was following me on a bike for the full nine hours, and they say, you can't bike here. So he gets off, and then I'm running there, and I'm, like, jacked up. I'm like, pure energy. And they're like, you can't run on there. I'm like, what are you saying? I'm just running. What's the issue? No one's out here. And this patrol officer comes up to me, and she's just like, you want a ticket, bitch? It was so funny. And. And then I. I got off because I had to be respectful. But, yeah, it was. It was fun. It was just wild. It's a weird feeling running through New York when it's completely empty. Yeah, no one's out at that hour.

Is it just, like, peak silence? Are you listening to what. What's the song?

I didn't know.

In Black by the Rolling Stones or.

No headphones.

What's the vibe?

No headphones. The full time.

Just the. The feet hitting the pavement.

Just the feet. I talked to my friend a little bit, but not too much. Um, he had headphones, which is good. Doesn't want to listen to me talk to myself for nine hours. And now it's just a good exercise and, like, mental strength and being able.

To do that when it gets hard. Do you have affirmations you're saying in your head or allowed, or is it just like complete, empty, dark space?

I. I like to. It's just different for the. The ultra stuff, the long distance versus short distance, like, speed, they're so different to me. I. I personally think the short distance stuff is way harder, and that's kind of why I'm gearing more towards that. More towards marathons. Again, I missed that challenge. It's a different type of mantra, I think. I think for the long distance, when you're really pushing, it's a matter of just sinking. I call it sinking into the run and just turning your brain off completely because you're not worried as much about pace, it's just worried about you keep going. And there's also fueling. It's so different. But the short distance stuff to me is, it's just different. Short distance, you have to literally romanticize like how your legs feel when they burn.

Yeah.

And you have to like fall in love with that pain and just push it. And. And you have to literally have these delusionally confident thoughts in your brain. Like I use the mantra over and over. I say like, I'm the one, I'm the one. I'm the one. I say that when I run because I want to believe whether or not it's true and it's. And obviously I'm nowhere near a world class runner. But just believing that you're different and that you are pushing yourself further than anyone is enough to keep you going, I think. And like I said, whether or not it's true doesn't matter. It's like you just have to convince yourself of it and it's going to make you run better.

If you went out today, probably not Austin, Texas, it's way too hot here. But like New York, a good weather day and you just went out to see how far you could run, what do you think the distance would be? Or do you think it'd be a case, knowing you decently well, where you just run until your heart gives out and someone would have to pick up your body?

Yeah. Like, I don't know. I think I could do a hundred. I just think, like, yeah, it would take me a while. I still want to run across Long Island. I just, I'm going to wait a little bit. Cause it was. I ramped up a little quickly and my knees were getting completely destroyed. And so. And a lot of that's due to me not doing the right strength training. Me not doing the right exercises. Cause I know I could. And then I could do that type of distance, but I was going to fall apart. I was falling apart. Like my knee was like gone yesterday.

It's like, stop, bro, stop. Yeah, I'm dying.

The pavement is different as well.

Pavement, Concrete jungle.

Yeah. It's like you don't see a lot of guys doing like ultras on like pavement. It's, it's kind of Brutal. People do it, though.

If we talked three years ago, you know, running wouldn't have even probably come up in conversation. What's the reflection process today as we talk in August 2024, where we're talking about you ripping 50 miles the weekend before doing three marathons in a row? Like, I would say your life has drast changed the past three years drastically.

Even a year ago, I wasn't really running. I really, like, last July, I barely ran. August I ran a little bit, but I would say, like September, it started slowly taking over my life completely. And over the last 12 months, it's been, I think, my core obsession. Like, talk about obsession. It's really all I've been thinking about, all I've been doing, but it's helped all the other stuff, all the content and all the work I'm doing. And so, yeah, it's wild. I just had something. I knew I had the ability and capability to be, like, a savage athlete. And that's what I always wanted to be since I played soccer in college. But I just didn't have the right vehicle. I didn't find it in the gym. I was never. I trained in the gym consistently and kind of hard, but it never took over my life. Right in the beginning a little bit, but it was, yeah, I can't believe I didn't start it earlier. I am so glad I did. And yeah, it's wild how quickly your life can change in a year in terms of, like, a sport, when you just let it completely take over.

Out of all the things, activities you've done in your life, what makes running stand out? Like, I think a lot of our listeners today maybe have been running since middle school or high school. And I think a trap you can fall into when you've been doing something all your life is it's all, you know, so you don't know why it's special for you. As someone who's tried so many things, why is running special and what are those feelings? Like.

It'S special, I think, because it's more than the activity. It genuinely becomes like a ritual and part of your life and part of who you are. And like, whether you run in the morning or you run at night, it just becomes a core piece of who you are and, like, spending that time alone every day out there running. And yeah, you can run with other people, but a lot of the running you do is alone. And it's just this. It's more than just an activity, truly. It's like a part of who you are and that's why a lot of runners, they start and they never stop and they become incredibly addicted to it because it's like, is genuinely a drug. It's why so many addicts get into running and they replace it, which I think is awesome. And yeah, I don't know, it's just like there's something to be said about the nature of running and writing as well, which is like this type of work I like doing. They're, they're both very solitude in their nature. They both require a lot of consistency. They both are very long term in that you're just training and training and training and then you have a few moments where, you know, you compete and like you show your work, whether that is in writing, you're putting out a book or you have a post that goes viral. And in running you're, you know, you're training, you're training, you're training and then you have a race, you have a competition. And yeah, they're very similar, I think, in a lot of ways. And so like I said, it's genuinely just become a part of my life and it's like it's much more than just an activity, much more than a sport.

That 52 miler, something I wanted to get your take on was, you know, you could sign up for a traditional ultra and have it be timed and have that competition and have it at normal hours of the day, not throughout the night. But for you, you were like, basically, I'm going to solo this thing, I'm going to do it. No one's really going to be there to see it happen. Yeah, I might get some DMS about it on Instagram or kudos on Strava, but for the most part you just did it for you. For me, you probably know this. Maybe not, but this past spring I was going to do a marathon and then I kind of got injured in the buildup and then I was nearing my 19th birthday and I was like, I really want to do a marathon in this 18th year of life before I turn 19. So I just hit the trail with a friend one morning and ran a marathon off of like little to no tr. To me, that almost felt more special doing it with no one there. Like, it's a different level of hard when you know that you're the only one there. Like there's not going to be a cheer station at mile 19 that's going to carry you through. What was the decision to do it kind of solo and maybe to a listener, like, what's the benefit of Going out there and doing hard challenges when no one else can see except yourself. Yeah.

Like, this is something I struggle with a lot because. And you might as well. You have an audience. Right. And you post the stuff you're doing. So you have to constantly make sure you're not doing things for the wrong reasons. You're not doing things just because it feels good to post about your running. And it feels good to people to tell you, good job. Right. Because I've kind of struggled with that sometimes where, like. Like, here's the reality. For a lot of people, getting kudos on Strava probably feels better than the actual run.

Yeah.

It's a fact. Yeah.

That's why people, after they finish their run, are like, let me upload it. Let me upload it.

Correct. I'm guilty of this as well, but. And that's why part of me, like, didn't even want to post about it. A big part of me. But then it's like, I get all these dms about people who are running because of me or inspired about the running. And then it's like, okay, if I don't post about the stuff I'm doing, I'm reducing that impact, which then it's like, what's the point? It's like, it's not what's the point? But it's like, there's right. It's like, not the right thing to do.

Yeah.

And so there's a line there, but it's just constantly making sure you're doing things for yourself. And I do think I did that for myself. There is something to doing. I. I like the idea of doing things outside. I always have. Outside of, like, traditional circles, not doing what everyone else is doing, not worrying about organized things, because that's the reality. Like, people. People are like, oh, I have to get in this marathon or sign up for this. But, like, no. You could literally put out your shoes and go run a marathon right now. And almost anybody at any fitness level could get through a marathon, I think, especially a half marathon. That's why I say I've challenged people before. I'm like, just go run a half marathon tomorrow morning. That almost anybody could do, truthfully. And when you do that, my strength in life, but especially in running, has always been not putting things on a pedestal. I think a lot of people put marathons on a pedestal and they make it this gigantic behemoth when in reality. And like I said, this doesn't apply to everybody. But you have to realize it's just a few hours of Running. And I thought the same for this run, this 52 miles, I never put it on a pedestal. I just committed to it and did it and didn't think about it ever really. Like, literally throughout the week, I planned enough that I wasn't going to pass out, got enough fuel, but outside of that, it was like, commit, close your eyes, do it done. And yeah, I like that. That's why I'm attracted to those things. And like the marathon I did, the both. The ones I did were very pretty, small marathons, only a few thousand people. I'm pretty sure they only had like 800 actual marathon runners. And Toronto I went to the most recent, I went alone. I met one friend there, but I had one person who cheered me on the whole race, which was great. He's the best. But it was really special to be there alone. It's like it was different than having. Because the first marathon I had family there, I had friends cheering me and it helped so much. It helps so much when you know, okay, I'm seeing my friend at this mile, I'm seeing my family here, I'm seeing them all at the end. But when you're just alone, it's like a totally different battle with yourself. And I love that. And I rose to the occasion in Toronto and, and did really well, I think, given where I was at fitness wise. And so, yeah, it's something to think about, definitely something about for people. Can you just go rip stuff on.

Your own and not post about it.

And, and not post about it?

Yeah, I honestly think that's a bigger struggle because people do something hard and it makes sense in our psychology why we would want to share it because we're naturally seeking approval. Like, that's a very natural instinct. But like to not post about something and you just know that you went out and did something hard. It's a good. I don't know, I feel like it tests you so much and you grow so much within that. And the few times in my life where even, like, I've had a really good workout, but like haven't shared the splits on Strava or haven't told people about it, you still have that, like, your personal satisfaction goes up because it goes from, what do I think about myself? Whereas before it was, what do other people think about me? What do they think about my splits? And it's like you're doing it wrong if you're, if you're thinking those thoughts.

I think so.

You mentioned a year ago how much progress has even just happened within this Last year. Not just the past three years. Since you've started running that marathon you did with Danny. I think you ran, what, in the three 30s?

316. 316.

Okay, I'm off by a good chunk. But what'd you run in Toronto? What's your PR?

255?

Yeah, 250. I feel like your progress over the past year and even people who follow you on Strava, like would know that you're in probably much better shape at times than 255. Like just the runs you're doing. I'm like, how is this guy? How's this guy do it? Like, I personally think if you had a good six month training block, you could break 245. Like that might sound crazy, but come back to this podcast when you do. Is that progress surprising to you? Like how good you've gotten so fast?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, a lot of it probably comes from playing soccer for like 20 years, just having the ability to run. But yeah, totally surprised me. That's why I got so obsessed with the sport, because I was making progress so quickly. And then obviously it levels off and then it levels off and then you get kind of. I've been kind of a little in some ways confused about, you know, what goal do I obsess over, what goal do I go after? Because everything's exciting and it's like, but you have to choose. You can't just like, can't fuck around, otherwise you're not going to become amazing at anything. And yeah, it's been, it's definitely surprised me. I know I have so much more in the marathon game to unlock. I've only really trained hard for it for like six months, which is nothing. And so, yeah, it's totally surprised me. But I love it. It's amazing. Yeah, I love racing. I've only done three races, but they're some of the best days ever. Like, it's a special feeling to be out there. No phone and just you have a goal and you don't know if you have a goal and you set it the right way where it's like just barely possible based on where you're at. Like that race in Toronto, I don't even think I was in that. I did not at all think I was gonna be able to do it. Truthfully, like, I was not confident and. But I did it and it's beautiful.

I think we discussed this a little bit last episode, but talking about it more the aspect of, you know, if you're not being, I mean Honestly, what's it. Real quickly, what's your take on culture? Like, they go for a run, but they have to listen to their, like, rap playlist to get through it. Or like podcasts. What's your take on that?

Nothing wrong with it.

Yeah.

It's like. Yeah. I mean, you're talking about people who, like, struggle to run. Like, they need music to get.

Yeah. They need stimulation.

Yeah. I mean, I like music. I have a great playlist. Shout out the Dark Place playlist. 4,000 downloads on Spotify. But I don't. Yeah. I mean, it's better than not running.

Right.

But it's. Yeah. You should push yourself to get out there without phone or. And just be in your head. Yeah.

And this is coming. I listen to music too, from. From time to time, but I think if you're reliant on it, that's an issue. But my question was gonna be like, and I think we discussed this a little bit last time we talked, the aspect of like, the correlation between, like, philosophy and runners and how. Whether it's a walk or a run, in this case, like, how when you're just with your thoughts, that's where your best ideas come from. That's where I'm sure a lot of your writings have come from. Can you speak to that aspect of new ideas coming as a result of, you know, getting away from society and not scrolling on your phone and doing. Like, people, I think, think their best ideas are going to come to them, like while they're scrolling the algorithm or whatnot. It's like, no, go, be with your thoughts. Like.

Yeah, they never come when you're scrolling. They never come when you're sitting down. Very rarely. Almost all of my. My writing that is good comes from something I thought of when I was running or something when I was walking around. That's why most days in the city, if I can, if I don't have a lot of work to do, I'll just walk around, go into bookstores, go into places, sit down, read. Because that's how you should live. I think you should be on the move and. Yeah, like, having that period of time every single day, whether it's 30 minutes or an hour to run, and just be alone over time. I think, like, when you do that every day for. For months, it's super underrated. Most people don't get that at all. And yeah, almost all of my, like I said, the writing that I post that is literally making my career and everything is from little ideas I get on the move. And a lot of that is from running. And it's also just like the intensity. Like there's something about. I'll feel, it's hard to explain, but I'll feel something on a run that then I can grab a piece of and put into words and, and we can talk more about that as well. Like the. How it's helping the how the running. I think of it in terms of my career and the stuff I'm doing, but it genuinely all becomes one thing and that's why I like it.

How do you think your career will shift in the next 10 years? Like, if we talk 10 years from now, to what extent do you think you'd be doing the things you're doing today?

I can see in 10 years it's tough. But I think, like, I can't say if I'm still going to be running the way I am now. There could be a totally new sport I'm obsessed with. But I guarantee you it's going to be helped by the running I'm doing now. If it's not the same thing or similar things, I think I have a long time to compound and you do too. How old are you?

19.

Yeah, it's crazy. I just think people, when you look at people who are at the top of the game, especially when they're young, let's say like 30s or early 30s, late 20s, almost always they were just doing the same brand, the same idea for like a decade plus already, right? Let's say they're like 30s. And so then you start to look around. Then you start to look around at people our age or we're not really the same age, but like in their 20s, let's say. And it's like most people aren't doing that. They're like jumping around or they haven't committed to their one thing. And so whatever I'm doing in 10 years, it's going to be the result of compounding around this one idea of obsession. And if I do the right things, I will have lived an obsessed life. That's like a big reason why I run the way I do. It's to show what obsession is through, through a medium that anybody can access, right? Anybody can go and run. And that's a genuine, genuine thing. And it's a genuine reason behind the running as well, is it's an example for the ideas. And so, yeah, I don't know. In 10 years I would like to be considered just, you know, I would like my work through riding and running to be world class for, to be known for both of them. Yeah, but to always the. The goal, the mission is always obsession. Bigger than anything I do. But it gets bigger as the. As a result of the things I do. If that makes sense.

To what extent? Going back to a point you were making there, do you think, like, lack of boredom in people's lives prohibits them from living a successful life? And what I mean by that is, you mentioned people our age, roughly, like, just jumping from career to career. Or like people get excited about an idea for two months and then they start it and they don't get a lot of followers, they don't get a lot of tractions, and they quit. And it's like no one Steve Jobs didn't have traction within two months of starting Apple. To what extent do you think lack of boredom within the grind is prohibiting people from experiencing success in their life?

I don't know if boredom's the right word. Like, lack of boredom. Like, it's just getting through, like the dark place, getting through the dip. Everyone quits. Then it's like everyone moves on to the next thing. You have to literally be able to. I say five years. You have to basically be able to wait five years for. To have any success or make money with it. And if you look around, that's usually the case. Like, people who start real brands, often they're just trying to survive for the first five years, even though the brand is crushing it. It's about sacrificing yourself for this thing bigger than you. And that idea, most people just can't do. And it also comes down to risk tolerance. I think I'm at the far end of the risk curve where I am completely comfortable having everything stacked against me. I'm comfortable if I have to, like in the past, just like eating oatmeal to survive for a week. Cause I have to wait to get paid for something. And most people can't do that, especially as they get older. They let their. Their ego kind of wins and they're like, oh, I have to do these things by this age and I have to have look a certain way because. And then they get stuck in these jobs and they get stuck in these careers or they get stuck in, you know, postgraduate programs or. And it's just the wrong thing. Or if you're younger, like, if you're in college, you stay in a degree just because you want to look a certain way. That's what I did. We could talk more about that, but it's like, that is the risk. And yeah, it's boredom, I guess they can't get through the period of just, like, nothing happening, right? Yeah.

Take me through the thought process. Like, in one of those weeks where you're just eating oatmeal, like, were you scared? What was, you know, did you have that inner belief that you were going to make it, or was it like, oh, my gosh, this is. This is scary.

Yeah. I mean, it's hard to make money, like, as a content creator or is, like, on your own. So, like, I always had the inner belief, but the. The thing that was different was the confidence. In the beginning, I didn't know if I could get out of those moments. Right. I didn't know if I would get paid for something. I didn't know if I would be able to make the money I needed to. But eventually you get through enough of those moments. Right, that you just develop this undeniable trust within yourself that it's going to work out and that you're going to figure it out. And then when you're in those moments later and the stakes are higher, you just. It just happens. It just gets figured out because you trust yourself. And that takes a long time to build, I think, and a lot of pain and suffering, but if you get through it, you get through it. And then, like I said, I think you still get in moments like that, and the stakes and the rewards are just bigger because I think it's just the type of person. It's the type of person who wants to bet everything. And I don't think that changes. I just think, like I said, the game gets bigger.

Yeah, I think it's a good segue into talking about college and that whole sector. One of my favorite quotes is, the biggest risk you can take is taking no risk at all. Let's just open up the conversation. Thoughts on College in 2024 for people who want more out of their lives.

2024, I don't know, is it that different than it was in, like, 2019 when I graduated?

I think it is. Don't you think? Like, I mean, TikTok wasn't really a thing in 2019. Instagram, obviously was a. But, you know, I. I feel like every year, the opportunity to, quote, unquote, make it in the digital age is just more exponential, which is why I always tell people, like, yes, you're late to the game, but as the saying says, like, the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is today. I don't know.

It is different. You're right. In the last five years, there's a general Shift in culture around young people, I think, where it's more. More people are doing their own things or want to do their own things. I think when I started my stuff in college, all the content, which was my fifth undergrad year, so it was 2019. It was very out of pocket, versus now. There's a lot of people making content or a lot of people who normally wouldn't. They have something they're trying to do. And so. But what I don't think has changed is that people do what I did, which is they get on majors and they do certain paths just because they want to look a certain way. Right. I was doing pre med because I stopped playing college soccer. And then I was like, all right, I need to set myself up for something else. Ambitious and great. And so I just put myself in the hardest major basically, that I could. I did fine. I got through it, sort of, but I never really wanted to do it. It was all pain and suffering, basically. Some of the classes were interesting. But college, I think, is a great opportunity if you are there to completely obsess over something, and that doesn't have to be what you're in school for. It can just be like, literally, you have a lot of time in college. I think you can choose how you dedicate it. But I dedicated it to the photo booth company I started this business I started and the content in my last year and just spent basically all my time on those things when really those had nothing to do with school. Right. Like, I was still pre med. I was still. I was an EMT at the time, but that I had, like, basically six months where I just obsessed over those things. And to be fair, I don't know if I. If I didn't have that time, I don't know if either would have worked. Right. So. But I think that's the big risk of college. Just don't get on the wrong path. Yeah.

There's this great, great quote. I think it's from Dan Ko, actually. He said, how to nearly guarantee success. One, observe what 99% of society does. Two, do the opposite. It's not hard to look around and see that most people are unsatisfied with their lives. If you want the same results as everyone else, keep doing what everyone else does. And I think if you look around in society or you walk around in your neighborhood or your street, if you're a listener, it's not, as Dan says, like, hard to observe that most of society does not really enjoy their life. They're not finding fulfillment in their Day to day. And they're not necessarily doing anything spectacular with their lives. And not that college is the reason for that, but I think a lot of people, as you were kind of alluding to, I think go to college because it's what 99% of people do. Why do you think people, like people, want more out of their lives? I think genuinely. But why don't you think people, and specifically 17, 18 year olds take the actual steps to live a different life?

I think there's a lot of different reasons. But the thing I try to encourage people is to not apologize for who they really are. Like when I was younger, I was very, I would say normal in a lot of ways in the things I did, but I just didn't. They always felt wrong in some ways. Right. Like when I would do a lot of stuff with like girlfriends at the time, go to like different events and, and weddings and parties, it always felt like I didn't want to be there. Like it was too much. Even though it was what everyone else was doing, it was normal. And I always felt really guilty for that. But in reality it was just because it wasn't where I belonged. And I genuinely believe that. And so when you have that feeling when you're young, I think a lot of people do. They kind of sit in these situations because they just don't see. They don't see other examples. And then they spend a lot of years on the wrong path. And so it's about recognizing when you feel that way because just. Cause it's what everyone else is doing. Because you're raised, you know, you go to school, you're born somewhere and you go to school in a certain place and you go to college in a certain place. And most people do the same things. And you have to just figure out ways to pull yourself out of that and ask yourself, what am I really doing? And the, the hard part is just it's tough to convince someone to do that. I think you need like a lot of stress in your life or you need like extreme circumstances to wake you up. And I had some of those and I'm lucky I had them. Like my mind were. I stopped playing college soccer and then went home to community college for a semester. And then that semester changed my life because you. I basically lost all the status I had. Right. I was at this nice school D1 college soccer player. Now I'm just at community college at home and just like started working out and would stay in the gym like three hours, literally just like fantasizing in my brain about all these things I wanted to do. That was when I first had the idea for a behavior hack, the Instagram. That was when I had ideas for everything that pulled me out of the gate. The. That pulled me out of, like, the fake world kind of. Right. Most people don't get pulled out, and I. That's why they get kind of stuck, I think. And then I had other things as well. And then. So, like, there was that moment, and then I started doing this photo booth stuff where I would go to weddings and just be working and be this, like, outsider kind of. And that gave me a whole new perspective on things. And then I was an EMT and, like. And that totally shifted my perspective on life because I was just like. I was like, helping people, trying to save people's lives, trying to help. EMTs don't do that much, but they help. And then I go to class, and you're just sitting there 30 minutes after, you just watch the person, like, die, basically, and it just, like, snaps you out of shit. But most people don't get snapped out, and that's why I think they just get stuck and comfortable. So it's like putting yourself in those situations where you can take yourself out of the routine, take yourself out of the path you're on, to see it from, like, above kind of, and see what you were doing is really powerful.

You're obviously around a bunch of savages 24 7. From learning from those human beings and being surrounded by them and talking with them, having conversations with them in their own journeys and careers, what are some commonalities amongst those individuals that help those people to take that uncomfortable step to doing what they're doing today?

They all have this element of. It's kind of what I just talked about, like, being an outsider, I think, and not caring about normal things. Like, I have an office with two. Two guys have their own offices next to mine. We're like a little crew. And it's. It's becomes very normal. So it's, like, hard for me to even answer the question because what happens is, I think as your career grows, you. You have, like, friends from home, and you have friends you grew up with, and those are the people you're around. But then as you grow, you just become. You reach a certain point where you're only around a certain type of person. So, like, this question to me is almost confusing because it's just so normal. And I don't even know how to answer it because it's just like, you look at these people and it's just how these people are. But it's just this, I don't know, this overwhelming sense of they're meant to do something great and eventually that overwhelms them to take action. But usually it comes from a decision to give up something normal to move away from home or to, to not care about a degree and go do this crazy job. Like, that doesn't make sense. Like, I have a friend who went to an Ivy League school and then worked for this guy, you know, selling like these courses on the Internet for this random thing. And it's just like these things that don't make sense in the short term, that's, I think, a commonality, right? That willingness to do that. And then, you know, three, four, five years down the line, it's going to make sense. But in the short term, it's like, what is this kid doing right? People said that about my Instagram stuff four or five years ago and in mostly supportive way, but like, also in a way like, what are you doing? Like, where is it? What is the point? So much time you're putting in. Like, I put in way more time in the beginning. Like, I don't know how long you followed me, but in the beginning I was just like hammering that every single second to make it work. Hammering it is all I did. And yeah, I think, you know, everyone.

Grows up in a city generally very few people move until they go to college. And I think so many people's like base communities hold them back or they think what will so and so think of me. I forget who I heard this from, but I think it was on a podcast once and they were like, the, the worst form of conversation is the past tense. Like when you go back home and it's like all the dudes you played with on your football team talking about the glory days and that's all they'll talk about. And they kind of live in the past and it's actually prohibiting them from, from taking action. What would you say to people who, you know, think the thoughts you're thinking? Or like they're inspired by you and want to take those next steps? Or maybe a 17 year old's listening and they're like, oh, maybe I should consider a different path and not go to college. But they aren't around a community of people who support those inner beliefs or even that like you were kind of saying there, that, like, inner something that wants more out of their life and wants greatness. It is, I think, unique. And if you have it, most likely the other people around you in your immediate life don't. And they want to keep you down, they want to keep you in their circle.

I think it only gets born in isolation. Like, I don't know if you had this period, but you see, you have like three periods kind of in my brain and you kind of just framed it in a good way. You have like the people you grew up with, family, friends that know the past. You. They talk about the past. They're kind of. They're comfortable, they have their jobs, they have their school, they're in this place. They're not thinking about the future. I'm sure you have friends like that. They're at home, they do their things. They're not romanticizing about this decade long vision. It's kind of rare to do that actually. It's actually incredibly rare. So you have that people then you have all these people where you're going. They're people like that you're getting, you do interviews with and you're working with, right? And they're all building, they're all compounding, they're all aiming towards the future. But in between, when you go from these people to these people, you're alone. You're totally alone because you haven't done the work yet to reach these people. That can take years, it can take months if you figure out things quickly and you have something take off. But regardless, it's going to be some period of time. And I think like I had that period when I stopped playing soccer. Truly that's when I truly, I always had this like sense of ambition and destiny. But that is that period of time of being very alone was when it just like develops in your brain. These, these. It's delusional. It's genuinely delusion. That's why I say delusional confidence often. But it's just these fantasies about where you can go and what you can do. And if you look at all these people who like the obsessed that I've been. I've been reading a lot about Kobe lately and I just read this book about Bobby Fischer, who is, he's one of the greatest chess players ever, who also went kind of insane. But regardless of that, both him and Kobe were incredibly isolated all of their lives. And to me that is, yeah, it's a cost. Like it's a, it's a negative in some ways, especially for Kobe. It kind of hurt his career in a lot of ways early on. But that is where he gets to spend all that time to obsess over his thing and also for his Confidence to be built and not touched. Kobe had the most ridiculous self belief that people would not believe, like you could not. It's hard to fathom the self belief belief he had from a young age. And it's 100% what created this career. But it happened because he was isolated.

I want to get your take on this and feel free to disagree. It might make the discussion more interesting. So I think when you experience some form of success in any avenue, you immediately think, like, how do I get to the top of this arena, the sphere? Or like, you just, you want greatness way more once you taste a little bit of it. I think people say that, like, once you taste a little bit of success, like, you want it all. Something I've experienced kind of weaving in the college conversation with like success and wanting more out of your life is it's never quite made sense to me. Even the friends I have who go to college who are like, let's say like in medicine, like they want to be a PT or something. My mindset is, okay, awesome, you want to be a PT for them. They just want to be a PT because it sounds kind of interesting and like, it'll pay the bills one day. For me, I'm like, what would it take to be the best PT in the world? But they aren't. They aren't thinking that. And for me, that's always been frustrating of like, I want what's best for you. If you're going to go in that avenue, become the best at it, like, create a social media account, like documenting your journey to get to that point. Why don't you think more people, even in those like, quote unquote, regular endeavors, because at the end of the day, we need like, doctors, we need lawyers, all of that, like, don't want to quote, unquote, like, be the best. Why do you think people settle for just, I'm going to go to college, 18 to 22, grad school, you know, from 22 to 24, and then I'm going to work until I'm 65, hopefully get married, have kids, retire. Like that life just sounds miserable if you're not actually chasing after greatness or trying to become the best at what you're doing. Agree or disagree?

I mean, I agree it's super normal. That's like most people, but it's like, I just don't understand it. It's like it's one of those things. It's like, it's good from. That is how most people operate. And if the thing is, everyone can't be this way. Everyone can't be obsessed. Everyone can't have this ridiculous ambition because then it would just be like, flat. That's how the world works, I think. I don't know why. I think. I think certain people. Everyone's driven by something. Everyone has. I don't know what your reason is. Maybe, you know, I kind of have an idea for me. And usually it's like some combination of like, trauma and the way you were raised that sets you on this path, I think, and. Or just something. It could be biological or it could be. But usually there's signs of things you went through as a kid that create this type of ambition. And I think some people just don't have it. And that's fine. It's just who they are and they're going to be happy or at least they're going to be satisfied. But something has to trigger that in your brain. Something has to turn that switch on. And yeah, to me, it's very scary to think about that switch turning off. That was always my fear when I was younger. My fear was that I was going to settle in life because I was close at a lot of times to. Or it wasn't close, but I was like. I was not acting in certain. The right way. And I was. I was kind of just like. That switch was kind of like flickering, like the obsession switch, let's call it. It was like going on and off. And sometimes it would be off for like weeks or months at a time and nothing would happen. And some people, I think the scariest thing is that switch turning off forever and you not even realizing it. And then you look back and regret it. And I think for a lot of people, that's the reality. But like I said, something has to trigger you to be the certain way and no one else can do it for you. You have to go through it. That's the problem with advice in general. It's like, you can't change anyone. You can't.

Yeah, Nothing changes if nothing changes.

Yeah, true.

You have to take the action yourself. Which is why I'm always like, that's my big motto is like, you got to take action. Because even if you fail, you learn too much in the process and it'll catapult you to the next thing. If you're comfortable sharing or even. You might not even know. You mentioned kind of that. That aspect of like, a lot of times it happens in childhood.

Yeah.

For you. Was there a specific example? Or like some kid on the playground being an ass where you're like, I'm gonna show you. I'm gonna create an Instagram account. No, it's 1.5. I'll show you.

My general thing is I was just a super insecure, unconfident kid, and I had bad acne, and I had. And I always took sports very personally. Like, if I played bad in soccer at, like, 11 years old, I would just be silent for, like, a week. And I just always had this sense of inferiority that I think made me go on a mission to take over the world. And it was, like, the only option, basically. Like, it was okay. I feel this way about myself starting as a kid. I need to go and achieve this ridiculous level of success. And it's the only solution that is, I think, where my stuff comes from. And. Yeah, and so. And a lot of. It's, like, soccer, too. Like, I had a lot of failure. I. I had a. Whatever. Okay. Career, I guess. I didn't. I had a bad college career. I didn't really play. That's where I think a lot of my ambition comes from, because I. I did this thing for 20 years, got to college, got to high level, didn't play because I was just not good enough, and then really had bad injuries as well. Where I was. I was out a lot not having that win. If I think if I had that win, if I had a good college soccer career, I would be done. I 100 believe that. I mean, I don't know, but I genuinely think if I had a good career and was like, I think I wouldn't have had the desire to do anything else. I would have just probably. I would have probably gone to med school and done become a doctor, I think. I don't know. But not having that win made me undeniably hungry, like, extremely hungry to prove myself. And so that's where a lot of my stuff comes from, I think, and still is where it comes from. Like, you can't change that. You can recognize it and, like, understand it, but I don't think you can change that. And I don't think I want to. It's just, like, taking the right actions, understanding it.

To what extent do you think that hunger and desire for more, no matter how high you ascend, is what keeps you being successful? Like, something I've noticed in the Best of the Best is like. Like, even we've talked about Gabby Thomas a few times, because I had a podcast with her today or in this room in January, and she. You know, it's like, I know she wanted to win gold. She Won gold. I guarantee you when I get her back on the podcast, like, she's thinking about LA 2028 or like, like moments that they set their dreams and goals and work years for, and they get there and then they're like, okay, what's the next thing? And I think to some people that that's unhealthy and would be unhealthy. And I think obviously you should celebrate your wins, but also at the same time, like, if I had to guess your mindset, you're probably never going to be satisfied and that's what's going to keep your impact high.

100%. Yeah. It doesn't mean anything. Like, I have. I'm basically living my dreams now that I was dreamed about like three, four years ago pretty much. Exactly. And it is wild how, how little they make me feel good. It's like, doesn't feel like anything. Like one of the biggest things, I did one thing right, really right in the last, like few years, which is I built this idea obsession which is bigger than me. And I didn't do that consciously really. It just kind of happened. But like, one example is like, I always wanted to like, be kind of famous, sort of, or like be known my name. It was always a desire. And I sort of have that now in a. In a small way where I get recognized and pretty often and people come up to me and say that I inspire them. And it's just wild how that's something you dream about for years and then you get it and it doesn't. Doesn't matter at all. You get incredibly used to it and it doesn't mean anything. And it means something in that it's very cool that people are touched by the content, but in terms of the actual experience, you get used to it rapidly. And it's why my friend has this quote. The big secret in Hollywood is that everyone hates being famous. I just always think that's funny. But it's something to think about and it's something interesting because it's what you said. It's like you have this dream forever and you get it and then it's just like, okay, what's next? It doesn't really matter because that's the thing about me. It's just like. And in general, I think the most important thing is not having what you want in life. It's like knowing what you want. Most people don't actually know what they want. That's the story of a lot of kids in college. I think it was the story of my college experience. Not knowing what I wanted and figuring that out is everything.

Off of that and off of my question, there's a great quote that I loved. Came across it last year. I think it's just so badass. The quote is restlessness is discontent. And discontent is the first necessity of progress. Show me a thoroughly satisfied man and I will show you a failure.

Yeah, that's the truth.

So good.

Yeah, so good.

Because I think people who are fully satisfied with their results in life, they just stop there, you know, and those are the people that, you know, go back to the glory days.

The glory days.

Because like, they, you never want to peak in life, like, as much as we think about running and we think about, like, oh, let's peak for the marathon. Like, even the people that peak for the marathon, they run a time, they're still hopeful they can run faster and like you. Or if they're at a point where, like, they can no longer go faster, they go farther. And I think if you're not chasing after something in life, it's a life wasted. That's maybe a hot take, but with you, I know it's not.

Wow. I think I'm the same way. I agree. Can't imagine otherwise.

Yeah, you mentioned. What was the saying you just said a minute ago about, you know, like, you have to know what you want in life?

Well, I had a friend tweet the other day. It's like, I think it's a naval quote. It's like the true, true sign of intelligence is getting what you want out of life. Like, do you have what you want? And that's, that's true. But like, I think what's even harder is to actually know what you want. Because I think if you're like you, if you're like me, if you're a determined and hard working person, you'll basically get anything you want, right? It's like if you want something, yeah, eventually you'll figure it out. You'll get there. And I believe that about myself. But then the real question is knowing what you want, making sure it's the right things, because I've done certain things and achieve certain things and then I get them. And I'm like, what is this? I didn't really want this. And a lot of that is the byproduct of when you blow up or when you grow and have success. You get things thrown at you, you get opportunities. You don't know which is the right ones because you're not used to having them. And then you start taking them and you Feel certain energy around different ones. And then you learn over time, I think. So it's okay. But knowing what you want is incredibly hard.

I think the reason I asked you to reiterate, one, I kind of forgot how I was framed, so I didn't want to butcher it when I. But two, like, I think there are a lot of kids who are listening today, inspired, but they don't know what they want out of life. Where would you direct them to even start that conversation? Because also, I think, and this is an issue, I think people say, I don't know what my passion is, or I don't know what I want out of life, but they just state that and never actually go on the path of discovering what they want.

Yeah, I mean, it's. It's kind of. It's two pieces to it that I tell everybody. And it's. What I said before is the one piece is isolation. You have to pull yourself out of the world you're in. I did that a lot. I did that with the gym. I did that with the photo booth stuff. That's how I did it. And that helped me see what I wanted. The other piece is just output. I think when you put things out into the world, you start to quickly realize what feels good and what doesn't, what feels natural to make and what doesn't. I always say with obsession, a bad obsession is an act of consumption. A good obsession is an act of creation. Good obsession is outward. You're obsessed with what you do. Everything you're doing is to create and serve other people. Basically, right? You're making this stuff. You could have easily just been obsessed with running and sat in your room and watched running videos, and it would have been the same level of obsession. Right? But it wouldn't have been. And it would have been fine. But it wouldn't have helped the people. It wouldn't have been a mission. And maybe that's a little different one where it's like, there's nothing wrong with that. But a really good, like a positive obsession is something that you spread to other people. And so I think for me, I spent my whole life just consuming. I didn't make anything. And so I think when you're young, it's like most people are the same way. And it doesn't have to be content. It could be anything. It could be selling something, creating some type of product or service, anything. But just doing a lot of things to take yourself outside of yourself makes you aware of what work feels natural. And eventually you find the thing that Feels completely effortless. And I think for me, the way I found that was committing to this Instagram. Basically same page I still have now, five years ago, five and a half years ago, I started it. I just committed to it and never thought about it again. And it changed my life.

I know one of the things you repeat very regularly on your platforms and you embody is man. You might have to correct me on it. It's like dreaming. Decades act in days. And I think the whole meaning behind that is like, I think people like think we kind of talked about this earlier. Like, oh, if I don't get this in a year, I'm gonna stop. And it's like you have to think so much larger than that. And that doesn't mean that you have to have your whole life figured out and know what you're gonna do the next 50 years. But committing yourself to a process where you know it's gonna take time and you know the results you want are gonna take time. How important do you think that mindset shift is to people? To think even like, you know, a young kid listening today, like, if you commit yourself to the sport of running for four years, I see this all the time. If you're going to your freshman year of high school, you become obsessed with running. You will not only become a different runner your senior year of high school, but a different person as a result of that obsession and commitment to your craft.

100%. Yeah, most of. So we talk about the people that I'm around now, like the types of people I hang out with, they're all chasing this thing for like 2050. They're all thinking about like ridiculously long term timelines. And yeah, for me, that's always been normal. Like I've always had this kind of broad vision of like 10 years from now, 20 years from now. And I genuinely feel like I'm getting closer every day. It's very important to think, develop that long vision for your life and it can change, I think, but at least having that brings you somewhere. I think the only real meaningful work is like done in decades, really. Right. It's like true brand, I think takes like decades. I've only been talking about obsession really for like two years maybe. Seriously, for like one year and a half maybe. And I genuinely feel like it's having like an impact. Like, I feel like it's spreading.

I can attest to that.

And even just, even just my content, it just gets so much attention. And the stuff even just like it didn't always happen that like I Would write about obsess, obsession, and it would do well. It would be too, like, specific. But now it does well, and that's a cool thing to see. And I'm just. I'm just. I fantasize about the idea of this one idea obsession, like, in 10 years, 20 years from now. And I'm very grateful I have it. So it's almost just like the game is just finding this thing you want to compound around and then not stopping.

To what extent do you think you've changed the language and mindset that people have around the word obsession? You've definitely changed it. For me, my perspective is, like, two years ago, I would have been super scared to admit I was obsessed with running or super scared to admit I was obsessed with work. And I think still a large part of culture. It's a negative connotation, I think, through your writing, through your work. Like, obsession starting to be like, you're cool, man. Like, heck. Yeah. I'm obsessed, too.

Well, it's like this stuff. Yeah. The way I see what I'm doing, I'm not creating any new ideas, which is like, the same with any creator or writer or anybody. But what I'm doing is packaging this stuff that people have always looked up to and branding it in a certain way. Like, if you look on Twitter, every single time someone posts a mattress on the floor with a funny, like, caption, it goes viral every time because there's some truth to it. There's, like, a beautiful simplicity to. All you need is a mattress and a laptop, and you can do anything you want. And same with, like, stories of Steve Jobs and, like, Walt Disney. People always, like, look up to these guys, but there's never been, like, a. A branding for it. Like, a thing. And when you have an idea, like a name, a label, it just completely changes the way people relate to things. That's why people relate to people, because it's like, oh, this is a vessel. This is a thing that I can connect with. But it's the same, I think, with ideas. And so me just, like, labeling this stuff with obsession makes it much more easy for someone to access and easy to identify with. We're like, okay, I'm gonna go be an obsessed person now. This is okay. And so, look, I don't think I've done anything yet. I think I've. Yeah, I get a few, you know, tens of 20, 30, whatever, 40 impressions a month. Million impressions a month on my content, which has some effect when most of it's about obsession. But there's A long way to go. There's a long, long way to go.

What would it look like if you've thought about this, to take that mission and that core part of who you are to the next level in these next few years?

It means that obsession is in culture, sort of like stoicism. I think that's kind of the comparison I make. Obviously, stoicism has been around forever. It's very Lindy. It's been around forever for a long, long time.

But in terms of, like, maybe 2,000 years, people will be talking about Zach like they did.

Exactly. I just need a few thousand years. But I think the Internet changes things. And I think that's the vision, though, kind of. It's like this philosophy that people can live their lives by in, like, a weird way. It's like a religion, honestly. And it is, like, it would be beautiful if, like, it is the reason, like, some. Is part of the reason why some people like you or people end up doing their life's work. That's kind of the vision. Just inspire people to not apologize for committing and going all in and turning off other things and saying no to other things, because I felt incredibly guilty for doing that stuff for a long time. And then in terms of the work I have to do, I have to live a life of obsession. I have to write some of the best books ever made. I have to become an incredible runner. I have to do all these things. Otherwise, I don't think the vision of obsession works. I think you need a leader to. To embody it. And so in 10 years, I just think it looks much bigger. And this idea of obsession is not only like, this worldwide philosophy, but it's also like a brand, like a household name. I think it's possible, and we'll see.

Hell, yeah, dude. I'm hype. I'm about to go run 10 miles out of this chair. Well, like, it's just cool thinking, like you said, like, you know, I want to write some of the best books ever made. And that I have no doubt you will, knowing you as a person. And people can come back to this conversation and be like, he called a shot. Like, I always think those things are sick when people say a quote and it comes to fruition. Like, not to keep bringing up Gabby Thomas, but she said in January, she said, the 200 meters is my jam. You're gonna have to do something pretty special to beat me in it. And no one did anything special. It's, like, so sick when you can go back to a quote like that.

I Think it's cool to call your shot? Some people are like, don't announce your goals and keep them silent. And that is one way to do things, but the other way is to just announce everything and then go do it. Both work.

I was going to say, I think both work. But my perspective has always been if I can be really open and raw about my journey, both the positives and the negatives, and I think I could work better on sharing the negatives. I think that's more inspiring to people than just being like, you'll see my results, but you won't know the behind the scenes. Like, yeah, it's cooler to me to be like, I want to have, you know, the top sports podcast in the world in a few years and have people follow that progression, or maybe even failure, then be like, you know, I'm not going to say anything. You'll just see by my results.

It's also, if you don't announce what you're doing, you miss out on so many opportunities. It's like this guy, David Senra of Founders Podcast, he always says, make yourself easy to interface with. I never forgot that. And he's a fan of my stuff because I'm doing that. It's. It's very easy to interface with me because if you follow me for even a week, you know exactly what I talk about and exactly what I'm trying to do. Usually it's like, oh, this dude's just trying to spread obsession.

It's so simple as what I would call you, Mr. Obsession. How would you personally define the word obsession? Like, have you thought about a definition and how much does it differ from, like, the whatever, dictionary?

Yeah, I don't really. I should have a strict definition. The one I kind of use online is like a way of life for artists, athletes, entrepreneurs. But that doesn't really define it. That's just kind of like how I'm framing it. But really what it is is going all in on something and not apologizing and allowing yourself to be consumed by the work you do. I think a lot of people hold back that part of themselves for many different reasons. It could be relationship, it could be family, it could be just who they are, but it's going all in and not apologizing for going all in. That's what it is. And not apologizing specifically for turning off the world. You genuinely do have to turn off the world when you're obsessed. I think you have to say no to things. You have to ignore things. And if you look at the best Kobe, Bobby Fischer, Mr. Beast, they all turned off the world. Mr. Beast didn't see all these movies that came out that everyone else has seen because he was making YouTube videos and that was the only thing he did, that was the only language he understood. It's like these guys who truly do something great, they don't know anything outside of their thing. And I'm not saying you have to go to that extreme to live extremely successful life. You don't. But if you look at the best, that's what they did. Kobe, literally, there was one summer where a coach was like, what's your plans for the summer? You know, you're not playing basketball, there's no season. And he's like, basketball. There is nothing else. Nothing else. And I get like, goosebumps, like, because it's like I'm saying, like, you do not have to go try to do that. This is why I like Obsession. Everyone can access it. In some ways. You can just do that in a small piece with some part of your life where you allow this one world, this one language, the lore of one craft, to completely take over your existence for a period of time. And I think that's the way real, meaningful work gets done. I think if you look at the pinnacle of any craft, any discipline, any sport, all you see is obsession. It's all you see and no one's really labeled it. But when you look around, it is incredibly obvious.

A point I want to hit on before moving on to some final things, before wrapping up this conversation, because I think it's very powerful. And you know, as conversation goes, a lot of times you speak from your own experience, at least. Growing up, small town in Ohio. I hate, I absolutely hate the extent to which kids grow up and they go to the college 20 minutes away from home, and then they, they get a job in that city because it's just, it's so comfortable. And I think that's why they're not really experiencing any meaningful results in life. I get passionate about this topic. We talked about, like, moving across the country or the mattress thing. And not to like, use myself as an example, but I will, because the people listen to this podcast, like, listen to it for a reason. You know, I didn't. I had enough money in my bank account last May when I decided to take a gap year that I was like, I'm probably fine for a year or at least like half a year. And I'm just gonna see if I can turn the running effect from what it is now into a full time job. Moved From a small town, Toledo, Ohio, down to Austin, Texas. Way completely different. The mattress thing is hilarious. Cause I had a mattress on the floor, had my computer, and within like two months I went from telling people who I'd meet that I was taking a gap year to no, this is what I do full time. I find it incredibly hard to believe that I would have experienced that jump, both in business but also me personally, if I hadn't burned the boats and gone all in for at least a few months and like move somewhere new. Could you speak to someone listening who's fired up from our conversation today and is like for the first time thinking about doing something different? Because also the other side is like, even if you fail for three months and you have to come home, what an epic three months. Like, it's so much more exciting than what, like being at home in your parents basement working a job.

I mean, what made you do it? Like, what made you comfortable? You started the Running effect while in school.

So I started the podcast almost exactly four years ago in 2020, July 17th. And what made me take that jump like to move was I knew that I wouldn't experience like I feel like moving across the country was the action of the quote, burn the boats, because it was like I had a safety net to some extent with my parents in the same town. Like they'd support me as much as they could if they needed to. I feel like moving across the country knew no one there was like, no.

Yeah.

Austin also is just a town where like that's accepted to just go all in. So I mean I just to. To your point earlier about like people just having that like feeling of inner call to greatness. That's what I felt like. And I think you can feel these things, but if you don't act on them, you'll never see the results you want in life. And to me, I think moving down here was that like action of that inner call to greatness. Of like also, if I don't try now, I'll never know. If this goes south in six months, at least I can die knowing that I took action. And I think you might know this, but like my motto for life is that I want to help people turn their what ifs into realities. And for me, staying back is not answering that what if? It's like completely contrary to my mission for life. So it's like if you preach it, you gotta live it. And so for me, taking action on that what if of can I turn this into a full time thing was I identified Austin as the best place to do that. Does that answer your question?

I think so, yeah. Yeah.

The light falling really threw me off. People may have not seen that with the edit.

Yeah, it's. I think for me what triggered me to start it was graduating because it was like this had a window of time. Like I was taking, I was doing job applications to be like a medical scribe, which is like a pretty rough job but you don't really get paid anything. It's like brutal work. And I was just like thinking about that. I'm like, there's no way I can do that. So I think when you're graduating school there has to be that element of like or when you're in school there has to be that element of pressure that forces you to change, I think. And so for me that was graduating and yeah, I don't know, it's. It is, it does come down to that. Just like what life do you want to live? And I was terrified of getting on the wrong path. Terrified. And if you don't have that feeling you're not going to change, but if you do, then it's, it's time.

Yeah, it's like you need to run towards something but you also need to be running away from something.

Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

I think there's a study done about that with like I'm not gonna be able to remember it but like cats and mouses and I think the like mouse ran faster when a cat was chasing them rather than when there was like food in front of them. And I think that's the same for humans. Like you have to be running away from a life you fear. For me, I fear so much that 9 to 5 where I make 50k a year and I retire at you know, 65 and I'm not present in my kids lives. Like that scares me.

No, same. So get it.

Yeah. What's your. We're getting deep here. What's like what keeps you up at night? What's. What's your fear in life?

Just I'd say going after the wrong things right now because like I said, there's knowing what you want I think is everything. And I feel like I have unlimited opportunities in front of me, could do anything I want and it's just about choosing the right things and committing to them. And I also, I go through periods of time like I kind of judge myself based off of time and like my age as well as like how much have I done in this period of time. And yeah, it's making sure I'm Living up to the expectations I have for myself. That's what keeps me out. Yeah.

Starting to close out this conversation. Went through a lot of your posts yesterday. I had liked most of them, so I'd seen most of them, but I just want to read, like, what you wrote and then just get your, like, rapid fire taken a minute or less. Because such gems here. So first one from the Manzak. If you don't want to be like most people, don't take advice from most people.

Yeah, it's true. Like, if you don't want to be like me, don't listen to this podcast. It's like, there's no point, especially now. It's like, that's why I don't like even doing podcasts. It's like people just yap, including me, and it's just like, people just listen. But a lot of it's just bullshit and you should not. Yeah, don't take advice from someone who hasn't done the thing you want to do. Just. But people do that all the time.

That's why I try to make a lot of my questions very geared toward a listener. You'll probably hear me say, what would you say to the listener in this position?

Great.

Because I hope by doing that again, if you're a 16 year old out there listening, you struggle by coming across Zach in this podcast, follow his account and take action with every post he makes. Because, I mean, dude, we were talking about that compounding effect. That's why I love my audience. Being so young is because, like, if I had a, if I had a, you know, my audience was like 50. You know, the subjects discussed today definitely can help, but, like, the greatest resource in life is time. And the fact that we're probably talking to predominantly like 14 to 24 year olds today. It's like, if you take action on any of the things Zach said today, you're going to be a different person as a result. So I don't think you yap if people take action. And that's why I'm like, take action. Like, that's why that's my motto. Because my whole life is a result of, like consuming. Like, I would literally listen to roughly like three hours on average of podcasts from like seventh grade to like sophomore year when I started a podcast. But I needed that period of like, consumption to then take action.

But it's from people who you want to be like or people you want to learn from. Right.

That's when I came across, like, goggins. Like, I was big into, like, rich Rolls, podcasts, so many of those lessons. And that inspired my own running of like, oh, wow, this dude did 50 ironmans in 50 states in 50 days. Like, I can go do a 13 mile long run tomorrow. Like, so. Okay, second one. Always choose the hard thing. Hard takes longer, hard takes better. Hard takes honesty, courage, risk. Hard can feel impossible. Hard can feel delusional. But when you're at a fork in the road and two paths are ahead, it's up to you to decide what's more difficult is what's worth doing. Choosing hard makes life easy.

That's true. It's almost every situation you're in, there's like two options. It's either like, go downstairs or stay flat, or go upstairs, go somewhere hard, do the hard thing. And it's usually incredibly obvious. And almost always the answer is just right there. And it's like, if you, when you see things that way, it's okay. It's simple what I have to do. Like, do I want to go run this race or this race, which is harder? Okay, probably do this one. Um, don't want to run today or not run today. Should probably run. It's like, it's a good times. You forget that it's that simple. Yeah.

A lot of times a framework I like to have is like, what would be more epic to tell my kids like, or like, to an average, like, teenager out there, like, going for a second run during the day or going to the gym and working hard, or like staying home and playing Fortnite, or like snapping people like. Yeah, it's pretty easy when you frame it that way. Yeah, I love this one. I think this is a great thing for like, imposter syndrome. Put yourself in places you don't belong. Sign up for a marathon. Speak on stage. Start a company with no experience. People will tell you to be realistic, to drag you down to their version of reality.

Resist.

When you start before you're ready, reality shifts drastically.

That's a good one. That's really all it is. It's like putting yourself in those situations over time. Each one is like a little jump in what you can do and how you see yourself. And you're never going to be ready at all. It's just you have to do it at some point, though, and the more you do that, the faster you grow. And then you become addicted to putting yourself in those situations. And that could be with a run, that could be with anything. That's why running is so great though, because you can do that every single day. You can put yourself In a new situation where you've never been or you've never done it, and you do it and you realize, oh, I could do a lot of things.

Every time I'm reading one of these, I'm like, oh, this is the best one. But they're all so good. Love this one. You should spend time where time disappears in work that feels like play and passions that feel like flow with people that make hours feel like seconds. The more present you are, the quicker the present goes. That's the paradox. A full life goes fast, but in the end, time that flies is time well spent.

That's what obsession is. Obsession is you sit down and you start working on something and you're so excited about it that you forget to get up and pee. And then you're like exploding and you just forget. Like, 6pm Turns into 2am and that's what it is. And so it's about finding this place where time exists. And yeah, that's the paradox is that when you do that, life's going to go really fast because time's just going to fly by. But I think that's like a good thing. And that's. That's really the test of your obsession is like, when do you feel like that? And it can take time to find that thing. But you know when you're in that state and you know when you're like, forcing yourself to sit down at your desk and do something and when answering an email takes all day, and that's usually the opposite of your obsession. I think I love a lot of.

These because I think they are, like big highlight marks on things we talked about. So it's fun ending on this. The big secret is just to never stop. Find one problem, one mission, one craft, and never quit. Spend more time than anyone on Earth. You'll feel lost, you'll get distracted. You'll wonder if all the late nights are worth it. But they always are. Greatness is less about skill and more about survival.

The big idea I like there is do one thing better than anyone on Earth.

Yeah.

Because it's very tangible. Like, you have a great opportunity here. You could obsess over a running media company. I don't know if that's the right way to frame what you're doing. But more than anyone on earth, you could 100%. There's a few people doing that at a high level, right. And you could be the most obsessed. And then you will either get to the top or you'll get fucking close. And in a long enough timeline, I can Guarantee you you'll be at the top if you're the most obsessed over decades. It's a very interesting question to think about. What can you obsess over more than anyone on Earth? Because it has to be specific. Can't just obsess over running. Doesn't make sense. It's like there's all different things. But could you obsess over the 400 meter more than anyone on earth? Maybe could you obsess over this specific race? And it also forces you to kind of narrow in what you're doing, like I said. So it's like I just love that concept. And you know, Kobe, Kobe actually did obsess over basketball more than anyone on earth. And it's the reason he's one of the best players ever. But like I said, to do something that broad like basketball, you have to be freaking obsessed. And Kobe was, he was. So it's like the broader your thing, the more obsessed you have to be almost. But those are the biggest rewards.

I think this is such a good letter to the current generation that's listening to this podcast because people are just terrible, terrible about this. Always want people to take the first step. The other person never takes the first step. Nothing happens. You wrote, go first, Call, text, ask, say hello, lend a hand, do the first set, run the first mile, make the first move. See a friend for no reason, help a stranger for no reward. Act on the first thought because doers be dreamers. First is far beyond second. And the world gives to those who initiate, not those who wait for others to do so. So spot on.

It's truth. And it's like a very interesting thing where some people are one way, somewhere are the other. But if you do remember that and force yourself to go first, over time it can become normal, I think. And it's something I've had to work on. I think I, I, over time I'm naturally like in some ways, in many ways a leader, but in many ways a follower based on just how I was, how I grew up. But the more I, I do the right things, the more I go first. And it's. You have to always, I have to always remind myself of it.

Two more be rational. Nothing great was done with sanity. Be bold, be extreme. Give the world something it's never seen before. Ignore rules, ignore data, ignore target market for a target that's never been shot. Insane goals are performance enhancing drugs. They fuel everyone. They wake you up, they keep you up. They push boundaries you never knew you had. So to change the world tomorrow, ignore the world today, fitter vision matters more than reason.

I don't even. I don't even remember writing that one. It's a good one.

April 3, 2023 as well. I went back.

I know, yeah, you need to have some element of delusion, like I said. But it's like, I wrote this thing once. It's like, greatness is a dance between discipline and delusion. That's what it is. You're, like, constantly going back between these two worlds of, like, this thing is insane, but this thing is also very possible. And I think, like, obsession is how you kind of bridge that gap. Because most people see this thing as ridiculous, but most people are not obsessed like you. Like, most people thought my marathon goal was ridiculous, but I was totally obsessed in, like, training my heart out. I think I trained. I like to believe I trained harder than anyone I know. When I was doing those workouts, like, genuinely going out there, like, each one was like life or death. And so that's the reason I got a good result. And, yeah, you just need to. And also, the longer timeline, you think, like, your goals are going to be more rational, but when you think longer, they make more sense, and then they don't seem that crazy and you achieve them faster than you think. I think I'm achieving my stuff way faster than I thought. If, like, the stuff I'm doing now is. Is like, would be four years, even three years ago. Totally irrational, but it's happening.

I more want context on this and what you mean by it. And I think it'd be beneficial to the listener because I think I know where you'll go, but I don't quite. You said write a letter to yourself every night and you will figure everything out. What do you mean by that?

It's true. It's like, it's basically taking journal, but it's true. Like, you have to get yourself out of your head a little bit and speak to yourself like you'd speak to a friend. It's like. Like, usually in my life, I've been so good at giving other people advice at times, but so bad at just taking my own advice. So if you just write a little letter yourself every night, I'll do that when I'm really stuck about stuff. It helps a lot if you do that. Over time, you get a lot clearer on your thoughts, I think. I think writing is very effective because it's like writing connects all your ideas in your brain. I always think about how your ideas are just like these little fragments floating around. But when you write or when you speak, you're forced to connect them and that's why it's so important. Especially like pen and paper. Write that shit out. It is very powerful.

If you remember. Was there a specific letter you've written to yourself over this period of chasing obsession that sticks out?

Yeah, there's one. I went upstate last year, kind of before I entered my like full obsession arc. It was last summer around this time. I went upstate alone for like four days to the Catskills in New York and just brought books and like, spent a lot of time without service, just walking around trying to figure some stuff out. And I wrote a letter to myself and it was just like, it was pretty negative. Like it was basically just shitting on myself. But it's what I needed. And I made a lot of changes after that weekend. And it was the first time I actually sat and reflected and looked at my life. Like, pulled myself out of my life, went upstate and looked at myself. And I could say from that day, a lot of things changed from that, from that trip. That's why I'm so big on, like, isolate yourself. It's very important. It's very, very important for you to figure out what you want, figure out what's important.

And yeah, dude, you've given so much freaking advice. It's been awesome. But closing out the, the advice column, was that what would be the final takeaway message you want to leave with our audience? Let's talk specifically maybe to like a 17 year old, 20 year old who wants more out of their life or for the first time after this conversation. There's like, I think a lot of times we, we get planted seeds in our head. Like you see a post from you or you listen to a podcast. I'm sure this podcast will be that for many people. What's that final takeaway message? What do you people. Where do you want people to go from here?

Say do something to get outside of yourself. Like get outside of your head. Very hard. Very important, I think, because you might be an obsessed person, but that obsession can't live inside you. It's what we were talking about earlier. Positive obsession is an act of creation. So if you're stuck, like, what can you. What's the smallest thing you can create that is aligned with some type of blurry vision with where you want to go in life. I think that's something you could start today, something you can start tomorrow. Go get the Instagram handle, go get a website, go do something to create this thing and start making it real. Because once that and commit to it. Commitment, I think, breeds obsession in a lot of ways. Most of my obsession started when I committed to something, whether that was a race or that that was writing online. It all started with this act of commitment. So that's what I'd say is commit to making something or doing something outside of yourself, and amazing things will happen, just like getting out of your head, because a lot of people are stuck in that one frame. But once you get outside of that, everything happens, everything opens up.

We started with running. Let's end with running. 4 months left in the year. What can people expect to see out of you?

Yeah, I'm shifting now back to the marathon stuff. So I have New York City Marathon, and that's the only race I'm actually signed up for now. But there's some. There's some things I'm working on. I. I won't sit. So, you know, there'll be some good stuff. And I like creating. I like spectacles, I like doing crazy. So we'll see. Right now, it's just about staying healthy. I'll say for runners out there, it's like I was totally consumed by running and didn't do the right exercises, the right strength training. And that stuff is very important. And you think it's not going to hit you, but then it hits you and then you get stopped. And I wish I was doing it way more consistently. So now I am doing that stuff. And that's one big thing I'd say. But, yeah, I'd like to. I think, end of this, I'd like to run a very, very fast marathon. That's the focus right now.

Well, I'm sure we'll talk again. Break it all down. Mr. Obsession, always a pleasure and privilege speaking with you. Like, I say this every time I talk to you, but you've had such a massive impact on my life and the things you say you want to accomplish, at least within the people who follow you. I'm certainly a testament to one of those people who has at least tried to act on the things you preach in. My life is drastically different as a result, so. Oh, man. Cool to meet you today. Cool to do this in person. We said we're going to do it last podcast and. Oh, excited to see you run, not to continue the podcast. One of the things you said you were going after was like, the world record for being over £200 in the.

Yeah, that's like the thing now.

Yeah, you're going to do it. Yeah, you do it. Appreciate you.

Appreciate you, man. Let's keep going.