Kelly Wearstler ON: Why Changing Your Environment Will Change Your Mood and How to Access Curiosity to Pursue Your Passion

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Online@Pandora.Net your home reflects who you are.

You know, what are you collecting and it's just like how you dress and it's such an important part of who we are. This is Kelly Whistler. She's the famed interior designer of private residences and boutique hotels. We were doing three hotels at one time and I was burning the midnight oil. And then you lose a team because they're burnt out. Saying no is just as important to saying yes.

I think that's great. Life advice and design advice.

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One health and wellness podcast On Purpose with Jay Shetty.

Today's guest is a dear friend and an incredibly powerful, multifaceted and and renowned creator of experiential, residential, hospitality, commercial and retail environments. Expansive collections of lifestyle, product and thought provoking brand collaborations. Kelly Wearstler has received awards from numerous publications and organizations including Architectural Digest's AD100 hall of Fame, Elle Decor's the A List, Titans, wallpaper magazine's top 20 designers, and Time magazine's the Design 120 and.

Vogue's best dressed list.

Kelly has just launched a new book with Rizzoli titled Synchronicity. Synchronicity features her most recent work for proper hotels as well as several private homes.

Please welcome to the show Kelly Wearsler. Kelly, I'm really happy to be with you because I've had so many special offline interactions with you and I've always loved them because you always have this really bright, really light energy about you. And you know, we'll bump into each other in one of the beautiful hotel projects you've worked on or we bumped into each other at mutual friends homes or you've been here too. And I've just always appreciated just how thoughtful that you are, how reflective you. And I've been really looking forward to this. So thank you so much for doing it, honestly.

Oh, thank you, Jay. Well, I'm so honored to be here and be one of your guests and sitting here with you, super excited.

Okay, well, let's dive in. The question I want to start with you is can design make you happy?

Yes, absolutely. And you know, one of the most beautiful parts of my jobs is making people happy, which is like, I mean, you can't, I can't believe I get paid for what I do because it's making people happy and inspiring people. And, you know, there's nothing better than designing a hotel and going in time and time again and seeing people laughing and having fun and listening to music and seeing them time and time again, you know, whether they're there as a leisure traveler or a business traveler, and knowing that's their place, that's a local venue for them, just makes me feel so good.

Yeah. I've been to two of your projects, the one in Austin, the proper hotel there, and the one downtown in la, and they are just spectacular. And you're so right. Like, I remember when I walked in last year, we were going to watch F1 and so I'd come into the office and I bumped into you and you were listening to the podcast. You showed it.

Yeah.

Which is amazing. I loved it. And then I just looked at this one place behind the steps, and you have all these most beautiful collected, like, pots and vases and like, they're just. They're so simply and beautifully kept on this, like, this kind of step. I'm. I'm. I've. No.

You have such a good memory.

Yeah, I. I have a picture of.

On my phone. Like, I'm, like, it's. It's stunning. And it's so interesting to me because I think I underestimated growing up just how much spaces and aesthetics affect our mind. And today, as someone who wants to live an intentional, mindful life, I find that design and interiors and aesthetics play such a big part in the mood we experience and how we feel throughout the day. What do you think it is about design that does make people happy or sad or drain energy or bring energy or like you just said, you walk into a space and people are connecting versus is isolated. Like, what is it about design that's doing. What have you learned about design?

People want to see and experience something they haven't seen before. And that's what I love doing at, for example, a hotel project. And they also want to feel a location. And when you travel to, say, Austin, Texas, and you remember those beautiful. The pottery on the Stabs, I mean, all those were designed by local artisans. So really bringing this local experience and authentic experience to wherever we design. And all of our projects are very site specific and getting very close to our client and really understanding and listening to what the client intentions are. There are going to be no surprises, and they're going to love to be in their environment, and it's going to, in turn make them happy and inspire them. And we all want to live a better life and we all want to look better in our clothing. And it's the same thing at home. You know, we want to surround ourself with things that are familiar and make us happy.

Yeah. I've got a lot of friends in my life right now who are trying to redecorate or redesign their homes, which can be such a challenging thing to do. You obviously worked on some private homes. Obviously you work on hotels and so many other spaces. But if someone's listening right now and they're thinking, Kelly, like, you know, the book looks stunning. Like, they've seen your pictures on Instagram. They're like, oh, wow, that living room looks spectacular. But they're thinking, you know what, maybe I don't have access to a designer. Maybe I don't have access to Kelly, like, but I do now through the podcast. How do I find my creative spirit? Like, how do I find that spark to start that process in my own home?

Well, you know, there's something that everyone gravitates towards, and I really encourage everyone to go out to museums and go to a flea market and go to vintage stores. And I always say vintage stores because I think it's important for people to see history and see things that are soulful and that have had, like, this life. You know, there's, like, you know, I love, like, you know, how I design is, like, there's always an old soul and a new spirit. You know, I love emerging artists, and I love contemporary artists, and that is, you know, apparent in everything I do. I dress that way as well. So really looking at, you know, what is something you like to collect? Are you, you know, interested in art and maybe starting there? You know, do you like col. You want to have color in your home, and maybe that's a good place to start. And baby steps and pace is so important because when somebody gets their apartment and I've been there, it's like, I'm so excited. I want to get in there and make it amazing and enjoy it right away. But you really should take your time. It's really important because you're going to really value all the pieces and they'll spark a memory. So, you know, so maybe you went to a flea market with a friend and you're gonna remember that day, or you traveled with your boyfriend or husband and you found this really cool chair together or went to a gallery. So baby stepping and being very thoughtful about what you start to curate.

I really love what you said about history and vintage, and I think it's so true. I'll give an example of something that happened to me recently. So I remember a quote from Robin Sharma, which I read when I was very young. He wrote a book called the Monk who Sold His Ferrari. The quote read. So it was a fiction story, and it's really funny. I read it so young, but ordinary people have big TVs, extraordinary people have big libraries. And that always inspired me. And today I'm fortunate enough to have a beautiful bookshelf in our main living room, which is like, you know, there's a lot of books that can fill in that shelf. And so what I've been doing is traveling and curating books for that by myself, because I really enjoy reading, but I also enjoyed design. I can't wait for this to be right. There. While I was doing that, I was inside a store. We have a local Buck Mason store here in la, and I was inside there. They do a great curation, and their curator always finds books from all over. And so I was in there checking out their books, and they said, jay, you know what? If you really want books, you should go to this random vintage store down the road. And I'd never seen this store. So I start walking around. I walk past this store, and it looks closed, and it looks really small and it looks really old. And I don't see anyone in there. But I start knocking, and just to make sure, this lady comes out, and she opens the door, and I say, hey, I heard you have vintage books here. I'd love to see them. And she goes, oh, yeah. She binds books. You could see all these, like, old binding materials for, like, these, you know, massive book covers and all of the old machinery and tools and processes you would need. And she said, well, I don't really sell books, but we have all these books here. And she said, I'll tell you, you know, she told me a story. She was like, when I got divorced from my husband, who used to own loads of bookstores, I got half the books. So she goes, I just have thousands and thousands of books. Some of them are here, most of them are at home. I said, well, I'd love to look through them. So I started looking through these books, and I was discovering, like, early editions of really special books. And I was, you know, starting to make a list, and I got a whole pile out. And she.

She was really like.

She didn't care.

She was like, you can take them for free.

And I was like, no, no, no. I'd love to pay for them. Like, you know, this is such a gift. And so I paid them, whatever. She asked me to pay for them. And then there was one book, and she said, I've been looking for this book for years. And she goes, I couldn't find it because it was, like, all these crease pages and hidden away. And she said, do you mind if I don't sell this to you, can I keep it?

And I said, of course.

I was like, it's your book. I really wanted it.

It was called. I'd never read it, but it was.

A little book that was called the Hidden Temple. And I was like, oh, that sounds so cool, especially with my background. But anyway, she kept that one.

I know. I know that. That shop.

You know which one.

Because she does bookbinding.

Yes.

And there's very few companies that do that still. And you know, the like, I love going to a bookstore and just getting lost in the aisles and just randomly just pulling books out of something that I know nothing about. And there's the Strand Bookstore in New York.

Love that.

It's an amazing bookstore. And there's so few now, there's a few downtown that are so good. But I agree, like going and just digging around and exploring and discovery and really it's all about having an open heart and being open to all the possibilities and enlightening yourself.

I think one of the challenges that makes it hard to do what we're both agreeing on is that we're so used to now seeing the same thing. Like, if you're on Instagram and you're following these channels, everyone's posting the same kind of interiors, the same kind of rug with the same kind of table, which there's nothing wrong with that. That's how things get mainstream and bigger and scaled. How do you challenge yourself to stay curious and try and discover new things? What do you do? What are the practical steps that you take to be open minded?

I guess I'm constantly in search of something new that I'm going to fall in love with. And I know if I go to a gallery and I'm so moved and I might see three new materials come together in this unbelievable creation and something I've never seen before and my heart stops. It's like seeing, you know, that cute guy and you're just like, oh my God, like, like you're just so moved and it's so inspirational to me. And it's that feeling of falling in love and you want to keep falling in love and continue to discover. And there, you know, there's so many new technologies and you know, I'm inspired by pulp culture and AI, which is like such a huge disruptor in the world of digital everything. It's like a major earthquake happening right now. Also, all of our clients are also different and they come, they're from all over the world and all the architecture is different and the landscape, the view from the windows different. So everything truly is one of a kind. So I'm just always searching. You know, I have. My bar is like super high and I just want to keep doing better and striving, you know, to be a better designer. And I kind of live that way. I want to, you know, be, you know, the best mom I can be, the best, you know, wife I can be and, you know, leader at my studio for my team, you know, just being inspired and sharing, you know, my love and, you know, continuing to make people happy.

If there's people watching and listening right now, and they're like, kelly, I just have bad taste. Like, they're like, you know, I just. I just don't. You know, I can't.

I don't know what match is.

Like, I try, but it doesn't look right. Like, if the people feel like that, like, have you. I'm sure you've worked with places, people, homes, hotels, where you kind of see that creative slump. What is it that you say to someone who's struggling goes, I just have bad taste. I can't think about this. Like, how would you encourage them to think about that?

Well, nobody should. With all of the visuals. Our world with magazines and social media and everything. Like, there's so much inspiration out there. So it's really just having an open heart and being aware and finding your passion and what you love and what moves you. Like, what excites me is seeing something that I haven't seen before, and you can't find that unless you go out and seek it out. Like, even you might find somebody who's like, oh, my God, I love the way they dress. Or, I went to this home, and it was so incredible and inspirational, and it happens to me all the time. I'll go to a party, and it's like, how they set the bar, and it's like, wow, I haven't seen that. And that's really cool. And I'm gonna put it in my bag of tricks for the next time I have, and I'm inspired, and I love it. I take photos of everything. That's, like, my journal. Like, I take photos of everything. And every month, I always go back and look at what has inspired me, and I share it. I like to share it with my team and. And social media and just see how my eye wanders and what excites me.

Yeah, I think you're spot on. When I was on my tour this year, I took so many pictures around the world of stores, arts, fabrics, textures, details. Like, there were so many things that I was like, wow, I would never have thought about that together. Or.

And there's a pattern. Like, that's where you'll discover, like, your style. Like, would you, Jay, if I said, what is your style? What would you say?

Oh, my. The way I dress or the way I design, like, my home?

Yes, inherently. Because they go, like, how somebody dresses.

Yeah.

And before you answer that question, like, I always. I have clients who'll say, you know what? Like, I really. I'm not sure exactly what I'd like. And I'm like, listen, we're going to go in your closet and we're going to see, like, what you gravitate towards. Is it all neutral? Like, do you like pattern? Do you like little bits of color? Is it modern? Is it more minimalist? And like, the answer is there.

Yeah, absolutely. I'd say that my overall style is I try and wear something that's a more or not, where I try everything to have more of a untraditional silhouette or something that's hopefully a bit thoughtful. I like my spaces to be very calm and very approachable. And I think about everything like a sanctuary. So I think about the energy that it has even more than the item. And I think when I'm especially putting my spaces together, I'm like, okay, well, what. How do I want to feel when I walk into this room? And you know, even when we had a tiny apartment back in New York, which we lived in like this 600 square foot apartment, every corner of our apartment was thought about in that way. Like, what can we put in this corner to make it feel special? Or like, how do we differentiate between the bedroom and the bathroom when it's like in the same space? Right? Like, what do you do? Whether it's a scent, whether it's something you see, I even think about, like, what's the first thing I see in the morning and what's the last thing I see at night. All of these kind of things to me are really important. And like you said, it could be an art piece, it could be pottery, it could be a picture of your family. Like, I think it can be anything and everything, but I think we don't often use visual cues and aesthetics. We think of it so aesthetically that we forget how emotional it is, if that makes sense. We think of it as like, oh, that's just about looking cool and being cool. It's not about feeling a certain way. But to me, like, even when I walked in today and I saw the COVID of your book and I was like, oh, wow, that looks beautiful. Like, I wanted to feel it and I wanted to. I was drawn towards it. I was like, wait a minute, what's the texture like? And I think when we were kids, that's how we approach things. When you're a kid, you see something cool and you want to touch it, you want to press the button, you want to. And I think as adults, I think we sometimes lose that. Do you ever. How do you feel about do you think that as children we are naturally that way and that you are connected to your childlike feeling or is that, is that something else?

Well, I'm like the most curious person and that drives my passion. And you know, I'm just, I want to know how something's made. I want to know, you know. And I love going to artist studios and seeing how they operate. I love going into a creative's home and just see how they organize. Curiosity is such a big driver and I just love the imagination, you know. And it started when I was like really little. I had, when I was about seven years old, we would go visit my grandparents and our, you know, cousins and everyone and I would make these little designs, like I would take like an egg carton and do something interesting, you know, with it and I would make little cards for the family to buy and you know, blank cards with a drawing on it. And then I would pack everything up and I would take it and put it on my grandparents table and little price tags. I was in business, I wanted to make money because my mom was always taking my sister and I to the flea market. And that's where I really started educating my eye. Going to the flea market and not having any money, it's not fun. So I'm like, I'm just going to start making money myself. And it was a great fun thing to go. And now I can go to these vintage stores and flea markets that my mom would go to all the time and be able to shop. So just in going to these and being very curious and just seeing. And also I was educating my eye from, you know, a young age.

Yeah. No, and I think that that's, it's fascinating how much you pick up from, from those moments in those times about what you gravitate towards. And I always wonder whether we've. Yeah. Whether we block that as we get older and we start to follow a more status quo or start to follow a more rhythmic routine like approach to our spaces as opposed to like that childlike, as you said, curiosity, but also that, I don't know, that kind of contagious feeling you get. I, I guess. How do you know when, how do you know, as Kelly, when you're saying, okay, I need to be patient. You were just saying that when someone moves to an apartment or to a home, they should take their time. How do you know when you should take your patience with an item or when you're like, no, I need to buy it now. And it's almost like taking your example of the Cute guy. How do you know when this is the one to be with or whether you feel like you're settling?

Like, that's such a good question. It's intuitive, I think, you know, and the more that you see and the more that you know what's out there, like you're, you're. You know, what the anomalies are and what's. What's really special. But it is. It's an intuitive feeling. And working with clients and these projects that we work on can take two years, five years, and so really taking our time to find things that are meaningful and that the clients truly are going to. They're going to live with these pieces, and it makes them feel good. Also, when you're working and buying things for your house, you should have a hierarchy. Everything can't be super expensive. So that's where. If you want to buy something new and you want to have a really amazing, comfortable sofa versus a piece of art, is knowing where to spend the money. Like a sofa you're going to have, you know, probably for a shorter time, where you have a piece of art and you invest in it, it brings a memory, and it's so personal that you can take it with you in your next. Your next home.

So you just encouraged everyone to spend more money on the art than the comfy sofa that you sit on every day?

Yeah, you can know because it's just, it's like, you know, it's furniture and it's so. It's so true what you said about how just with social media and everything is. There's so much sameness out there. And so, you know, your home reflects, you know, who you are. Your home, you know, reflects who you are. You know, what are you collecting? And, you know, it's just like, how you dress and it's such an important part of who we are. And don't you look like when you do Zoom meetings, are you checking out what's. What's behind them?

Always. Always.

I know, and it says a lot about. About the person.

Yes.

And I'm looking at all this amazing things behind you. And, like, is all of this. Are these all personal choices?

Yeah. So we. What we tried to do. So my biggest goal for this space, obviously this space is just everyone, everyone who listening and watching, you know, that we're in my podcast studio and this room is only used to record the podcast. And so our goal was I wanted it to feel intimate because a lot of production sets have, like 30 people on them. And I find conversations like this to be Much more intimate and close. And like this is how I would sit with a friend. So that was a key need. The second thing was I didn't want it to be packed with too many other people because I think that removes the intimacy. The choice of art was all to evoke emotion. So I chose that piece there with the heart because to me, I want to only have heart based conversations here. That's, that's what on purpose is all about. Where we reveal our hearts to each other, me included. And even our audience and community is opening up their hearts to the ideas and topics. I genuinely put eyes there through that art throughout because I think eye contact is such a beautiful way of being present and being still and being focused with someone. And again, these are, I'm giving these subliminal, not messaging but the deeper meaning behind why these things there. This is an African shield. And we had that there because I wanted people to reminded to put their guard down. It was almost like hanging your shield up, the thing that blocks you. And then there were. And they're all pieces by people of color. So all the art in here were by people of color. And this was to remind of the highest good, which is of serving and offering. And which is such a big part of the philosophy that I followed.

And still, you know, one question that I had is because you obviously were working in finance and in London and you went, you became a monk. How has like material things and design and fashion, you look amazing and super stylish and like how has that changed for you?

It's so. It's such a good question. I'm so glad you asked me that, honestly, because I think that I was always interested in fashion and design before I became a monk. So I was always intrigued by graphic design. I loved collage art and design was one of my favorite subjects at school and I did really well at it. And I've talked about my art teacher often who I credit so much with my intentional thinking. So let's say we're doing a collage and we're doing mixed design. I would put something together and I think it would look amazing. And my friends would think it would look great. And my teacher would look at it and say, why did you do that? And if I didn't have a good enough answer, I didn't get a good grade. And so he was training me to always ask why. He was like, why would you put those two things together? What's your reason? And I started to realize that the intention was so important. The intuitive design of putting Things together. It wasn't just about the form, it was about the substance. And so I loved that from before I became a monk, I even wanted to. I had the dream of becoming a graphic designer or art director. When I grew up and put magazines together, that was always kind of what I enjoyed. And obviously, I left that all when I became a monk and moved away from it. And the monastery was always very minimalist, right? There was no. It's not that. There was no design. And I think that's always important to remember. Like, if you've ever seen an altar. An altar is highly designed, whether it's deities of God, whether it's forms of sages or gurus. If you ever walk into a temple atmosphere, it's very decorative, very decorative. And some of the temples that I visited in India had, like, the most ornate carvings around them, telling stories and histories and pastimes of incredible epics. And you'd see. You'd see that the design that was above the place where you stand when you're in front of the altar had specific markings on the ceiling. Like, there's so much intentionality even about a temple and how they were designed. And so I think I appreciated all those things. Although in the temple, it was very minimalist. It wasn't, you know, it was. It was. It wasn't, I guess, material in that sense. But I think for me now, I've just allowed all my passions to infuse. And I really do believe that designing your home, designing what you wear, or choosing and selecting it carefully allows you to feel different. And so to me, design and mindfulness, or fashion and mindfulness, or how you dress is probably a better word than even fashion. But how you dress and mindfulness and how you design your home and mindfulness are completely synchronized and they can't be separated, because I feel different when I wear something different. I can express myself differently when I dress differently. I can sit with you, and we can create an atmosphere, hopefully, in this room for you and our guests that allows you to be comfortable and open, and that allows you to feel safe. And so hopefully, that answers your question. I don't know if it does, but.

No, it does. It's great. And it's a lifestyle. It's like how you dress and how you. How you design your home. And two, how you operate your lifestyle, whether it's wellness to what you eat, you know, the whole thing goes hand in hand.

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I think one thing about your work, though, Kelly, that I like and it kind of reflects on the question you asked me is, you know, one of the things I often struggle with is because I lived as a monk and now don't at all. And I'm married, of course, and we have businesses and companies and everything else, I've given myself permission to be all of the complexities of who I am. And I love meditating, but I also love media. I also love sharing messages. I also love management and strategy. And I've just allowed all of myself to coexist. And I feel that allowing myself to do that has allowed me to be happier with who I am. And when I look at your work, and I'll let you comment on that in a second on me, but when I look at your work, I see that same juxtaposition of things that people would often say, well, that doesn't work, or that wouldn't make sense. And if you walked it through theoretically, most people would argue, I think, with your designs that they wouldn't make sense because I think you put things together that seemed so alien and challenging and random that people would say, yeah, that doesn't make any sense. Now you've found a way to make it cohesive and make it work. I wonder, are you trying to. Do you agree with that first of all, and how have you allowed yourself the permission to put things together that people would find unexpected?

You know, that's such a good question. And when I was starting out, there was a very specific style. It was like the slip covered furniture and everything was neutral. And I came to Los Angeles and I'm so grateful for this first job that I got for a couple that lived in Venice beach. And they needed help with one dining room. And I was gonna actually work with a design studio and this job just fell into my lap. And so it was on the canals in Venice, this really cool bungalow and design. They were like, listen, all, we only have money for one room, so let's do this. I did it. And there was color and there was like vintage things and there was some contemporary artist pieces. And the room, like looked, you know, incredible. They didn't quite understand it and they were like, well, it doesn't feel like maybe what I'm seeing. And so, you know, I had to really, like talk them through it. And this is, you know, before, you know, now you're doing like renderings for your clients to really understand. You know, there was a lot of communication. You know, took them to the flea market with me and we really made these decisions together. They were a little apprehensive, but it turned out great. I ended up doing the whole entire house. And then somebody saw that. And so, yeah, it was a little scary. And still now there are clients that are, maybe we'll do a presentation. They'll say, I like part of it, but maybe this part I don't like. And if I truly believe, I'll take the time and kind of show them the way and my thought process and maybe give them a few more visuals. So the team and I will work on that. But if it doesn't, if they're not 100% dialed in and excited, then we'll come up with another option. And we're all about making our projects amazing and unique. But we also want to make sure our clients are so happy and love the space. So it can be challenging for sure.

How did you get that confidence, especially early on? Right. So you're asked to do a dining room. I can't believe that you, you know, like, it's beautiful to hear that, that today when you're designing multiple hotels and that it started with just designing a dining room. And I think that's so inspiring for so many people listening and watching who either want to follow in your career path or do something creative that they can think, wow, that, that's where it can start. How did you have the confidence at that point to walk them through it and say, hey, even if you don't get it, this makes sense. What gave it to you at that point? Or did you feel, at that point, did you feel a bit nervous when they said, hey, we're not, you know, we don't get it? Or did you always have that confidence about your work?

No, I was nervous 100%. Like, I was like, oh my God, am I making the right decision? Like, I felt like in my heart it was the right decision. So I really wanted to not convince them but have them like understand like where I was coming from. And they had faith in me and we went for it and it looked amazing. And you know, we still have those clients. But yeah, it was a nervous, nerve wracking experience. And we still now will do a presentation. Like the team and I will work on something for weeks and it's like a really big concept presentation and there will still sometimes be like, this just doesn't feel right. Because our audience maybe, whether it's for a hotel and it's a group of people, they might not have seen it before. And I strive for that. I want to do something that is unique and site specific and so they might not see it before so they get a little, a little timid. So again, it's being, you know, really communicating and letting the client know what, what you know, is in our mind's eye.

Tell us about some of the communication skills that takes. Because I think when people think of creative careers, we think of them as purely artistic. But actually you're dealing with someone's intimate homes or hotel space which again is. People are coming there to rest or relax or connect or take a break. So they're very important spaces for us and therefore people are quite opinionated about them. How, what have you learned about communicating more effectively with people, especially when things are so personal? Because I think that's a unique skill set that people wouldn't understand that you've had, you'd have to have, but you, you obviously have to because you're talking to people about things that they have very clear thoughts about and specific choices.

For confidence, like presenting it like you have to believe it. And having confidence is everything. The visuals are so important. And so I like to communicate with the visuals because I can talk for an hour and the client might still not understand like the direction. So having the visuals is everything. And the confidence, confidence is so, is everything for you.

You know, like we just talked about your Career started from, like, humble beginnings. And I wonder what is. What was the hardest thing about getting started? What was the most difficult thing on this journey to get to where you are today? What was the thing that scared you the most? The thing that you struggled with the most?

Like, I'm a really hard worker, and I know what I like probably going into it, like, by myself. Like, I did the job starting out for three years by myself. I was the business person, the creative person. I was loading my car up at the flea market with a huge chair and putting it in myself and doing everything, and so doing that by myself. And I didn't work in a design studio, so I didn't have that visibility to how a design studio truly operates. So really figuring out the contracts, the budgets, and how to present that, I did it on my own. And I asked a lot of questions, and there were some great contractors and people that I was working with and collaborating with on these projects, and I just asked a million questions. But I would say that doing that alone. And now when I go to a big meeting and I get nervous doing a big presentation, and I have my team and my support team, my family, my husband, who's, like my biggest cheerleader, and we do it as a team, and that was probably, like, the most kind of frightening part of starting.

Yeah. And I'm hoping that the reason I asked that is I think there are so many people right now who are listening, have a passion, have a creative project that they want to work on, and it can feel daunting when you say, oh, I don't know accounts. I don't know how to do my taxes. I don't know how to put a presentation together. I don't know how to pitch that. But you're saying, asking questions and just doing it. I guess I'm guessing there were lots of mistakes.

Yeah.

You just have to do it. I mean, honestly, you just have to do it. And really, you know, just having the passion and really, you know, the drive to wanting it and educating yourself along the way. And I'm continuing to educate myself along the way. And every project we have, there's a new group of creatives, whether it's a landscape or architect, lighting designer, that we all learn from one another. And that just makes me and my team a better designer. And we pass it along to all of our network next projects and clients.

What do you think was your biggest mistake that you made on that part of the journey? Like, something that now you look back and, oh, that's ridiculous. I can't believe that was a mistake, that it doesn't feel that big, but at that time, you're like, oh, no, I don't know how to do this, or, you know, this.

Oh, my God. So I worked. I worked on a project, and I had one assistant, but we were working on this project for this music executive, and she loved color, and so she was traveling, and this was actually starting out. She had a really low budget, and so we were like, listen, we're gonna have this painted. We're gonna do something unbelievable. And it looked awful. It was, like, so it was a wreck. And it was just. Too many colors, just went overboard, which you can do, which is great to make mistakes. It's so important in the creative process to make mistakes. And so she was gonna be back in a week, and my assistant. And, like, we'd spent the money on the painters, so we. So I painted myself with my assistant, the entire house, ourselves.

Wow. Wow.

You know, we wanted to make it great. And that's not the first time I've done that. We worked on projects that there was, like, a little budget, and I wanted the project so badly to be amazing, and I wanted to make the client happy. And they're just. And so I just, like, paint it myself.

That's amazing. That's incredible.

Yeah, you just. Sometimes you just have to do it.

Can that person now claim that Kelly painted my house?

I think they moved since then, but, you know, I just did it myself. And sometimes you just, you know, you have to do it. You have to just put in the extra work and make it happen.

What do you think was the biggest risk you took on this journey where you felt like you were kind of leveling up. I feel everyone goes through this phase of they're doing the work, they're growing, they're building. You went from doing the dining room to the whole home. What was a big risk that you thought or a leap you had to take, which kind of shifted your career?

I would say. You know, when I was doing interiors, and this is like, what's so great about my job is, like, anyone can call any moment. I got a call from Bergdorf Goodman, you know, this incredible store in New York, and they were looking for a designer to do the, like, iconic restaurant on the top floor. And so they're like, we'd like to come out and meet with us. And we did, like, a presentation. And I was like. They were like, well, listen, we're speaking to a few other people. And I thought for sure it was going to be a new York designer. Like, I was the only one on the west coast they were speaking with. And we ended up getting the commission, which was, like, unbelievable. And this is like a store that, you know, you just. You just dream about because it's, you know, so, you know, iconic. So doing that project and it was like a really, you know, big success. It looks the same way. I think it's been like 12 years since that project was completed. So after the project, the president of the company said, hey, listen, you know, we would love for you to have a shop.

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I was thinking but I don't Sell anything. Like, I'm a designer and I don't have product. So I said, well, let me think about it, because that was like, a dream. Now I'm going to have, like, a shop within Bergdorf Goodman. And so I went back and I was like, you know what? I have designed a lot of things, like, a lot of commissions for some of our projects, and we've done a lot of custom things that we couldn't find, and we ended up designing. So within about six months, we designed this incredible space. It was like a little jewel box, and we were in business. And I had accessories, and it was there for 10 years. It did so well, and it was a really fun thing to do. And, you know, I took as a challenge, like, I want to do this. I was so excited, and I really educated myself on how to find fabricators around the world. A lot of our things were made there in different places. So it was a really cool thing. And that got me into having a store completely different. Completely different. And I think that's having an open heart and just riding the wave and being open to any opportunity. And now we're designing product and hotels. I never thought in a million years I'd design a hotel and, you know, work. We're now working with a lot of brands doing really, like, unbelievable cool things, and so it's, like, really exciting.

Are there any particular cities in the world that you feel you just constantly gravitate towards? Or have they changed over the years? And what would be some of your memories of going to any of your favorite cities or countries where you discovered something new or something fresh or even something that felt familiar?

I would say going to Europe, like, I love going, like, the Paris flea market is, like, unbelievable. And just any of the European cities, like, I was in Amsterdam this summer, and I was in so great. And in Belgium, and so many incredible artists, like, these really great emerging artists. And when you travel, you just see, like, what's special and. And I think it's so important to travel because if you. Our world is becoming so same. There's not a lot of. You know, if you look on your Instagram and, you know, in your technology, things are feeling the same. So it's so important to travel because you really see what are the special materials and the inherent designs and craftsmanship that many of these different countries have. So it's very, very important to get out and see things in person.

Absolutely. Kelly, I want to do something intuitive with you, seeing as we're both being intuitive. So I'm going To look through your beautiful book, which I love to do in general anyway. And I'm going to pick things that intuitively call out to me.

Okay.

And then ask you. To ask you the story about them. How does that sound?

Okay.

Does that sound okay?

Yeah.

Okay. There's so much stuff already. I saw this picture. I fell in love with this, actually. I was like, addicted to this whole space for a second. Maybe I should ask you to walk me through this because I saw this on your Instagram too.

Oh, yeah. That's a project that's in California. We worked on it with an architect, Marwan El Sayed, and he did the Amangiri, Right?

Yeah.

And he's just such a talent. And this is an Anish Kapoor artwork. A Jonas Bolen chair that is from the 80s.

That chair was stunning.

The chair is like sculpture.

Yeah.

And that's why, actually, Jay, like, one of the things is, you know, you think you've seen everything. And so, for example, like a stiletto heel. You think you've seen every stiletto heel and someone comes out with something that totally blows you away and it's like a new thing that your heart stops. And it's the same thing with a chair. And having, like, artists find their creative spirit, you know, that's a three legged chair. And just people continue to design and come up with things that you've never seen before. And it's the same thing with music. Like, you think you've heard like every kind of rhythm or sample and you just hear something new that just blows you away.

What about people who think they're like, you know, Kelly, I don't have enough money to make a space look good. Like, do you need to spend big in order to create a space that feels good to you?

No. 100%. Because you can just like I did, you can paint a wall and it could be one wall, which is actually kind of cool. Every wall doesn't have to be the same color. It makes it more interesting. And just have one amazing chair that you love and one light. We need light. Light fixture and a table and like, let it sit for a while. And really just that showcases your style. And it's nice to live in something a little more minimal for a while. Like, I used to live where I just had so many things that, you know, I found on my travels and there would just be a lot of stuff. And I've kind of changed. I like things that are really like, a little more minimal and important and at least lets the piece shine and have its own Moment.

Yeah.

I think minimalism's definitely where I feel like I feel our home is quite minimalist. There's a lot of empty space. Everything's very low as well, which I really like.

I know, I love like low. Like some of these, like beds and furniture. I mean, you need like a stool to step on. They're so, they're so tall and it's. And it's the same. Everything's getting big. Yes, Everything, like literally. I mean, we're designing tabletop and you know, we. Plates, like, you know, they're so much bigger now. It's like everything. And so I love really low beds because I think you feel like really low to the ground. And it also makes a small bedroom like feel more expansive because it doesn't cut the room in half.

So that's a good note.

Yeah, a bed that's like 12 inches in height and it's so nice. I mean, it's very, you know, it's how like in Japan everything's like really low and it doesn't get in the way of windows and it makes your space feel so much more expansive.

These are very good practical tips. I think everyone's going to be getting low beds because of that. This space is spectacular. I don't think I've seen this in real life actually, with all the tiles and everything.

Oh, yeah, that is in Austin where we met. We actually spoke over on the right side there.

Hidden behind here.

Yeah. So that is a restaurant. And so all those tiles. I was in Portugal and I stumbled upon this shop that had tiles and it was like a 75 year old family owned tile company. And I went inside and I was so moved. And this restaurant, the chef that we were designing this restaurant for, it's Mediterranean. And so the reason why it's very patchwork is because all of these tiles came from different like decades and periods. And so, you know, many of it's like 10 dead stock and there was 7 left or maybe 20 left. And so really created this patchwork of all of this. You know, different color and pattern and reliefs and it looks, you know, amazing.

Yeah, I love it. It's. I, I didn't, I didn't see it that day. I think we were. What, hidden on the other side? Oh, we're on the other side, right? Or through there. I'm trying to figure that out.

Yeah. And it's also like making do with what you have or what you've seen. Like, I could easily gone in this tile store and seen one tile that I absolutely loved and like, okay, let's just do the entire wall in that. But, you know, having something that, you know, okay, how can we make this work and make it really interesting and kind of just, you know, letting your creative juices flow.

I think that's what's so beautiful about it, is that when we're present and when we're. When we observe, I find that. And I don't know how I started doing it with furniture and things like that, but I feel like when you re. I think it's just mindfulness training, but when you get really present with, like, looking at even the direction of, like, the grain lines, you know, on a piece of wood, or whether it's looking at, like, how it's cut or connected or, you know, And I don't have any of the vocabulary of an interior designer at all, or the language or have any skills in this space, I can appreciate something that. That looks beautiful. And so as I'm looking through this.

Yeah. And things that are also, like, imperfect. And if you. You know, if we're skinning a wall in timber and, you know, you want the hand of it to really show its, like, dimensionality and how things are assembled and put together, and it's all, you know, part of the storytelling. And it does. Like, things that are imperfect are so beautiful, which is kind of crazy, because I'm a little bit of a perfectionist, and I'm trying to, like, you know, let things go a little more. Like, sometimes, like, I literally will go to, like, one of the hotels, and I will see the furniture that's out of place, and people are like, oh, God, there's Kelly. Like, she's, like, moving, like, the furniture. I'll tell. I can tell if things are, like, 2 inches off. I mean, I like to keep things, like, super tight.

Yes.

But sometimes you just have to, like, let it go.

No, I'm with you. My wife and I get into this all the time. I will rearrange our dining chairs around the table every night just because.

Oh, my God. I. I totally am that person.

Yeah. I. My wife's like, what are you doing? I'm like, no, these are just too close, and I can't appreciate this space because of this. I. I'm totally like that. So I get that.

And I told my boys, I'm like, listen, I see everything. Like, you'll never, like, pull anything over on me. Yeah, I see everything.

I love it. This piece I saw. I loved it from the moment I saw it. I mean, it looks spectacular.

Yeah. So this is in the Hotel that's in downtown and it's a suite because the, the building is a historic building and it used to in one of its lives be a ymca. And so in order to get the historic tax credits, you have to keep a lot of the programming there. So there was a pool and it's quite. It's like a 30, 40 foot pool. And so it's a three bedroom suite and it has its own kitchen. So, you know, you can stay in this, you know, really incredible. I mean this is an experience that you'll really rarely get. And that's what we like to do is like, you know, give people an experience and something that they can take an incredible memory home with them.

Well, I mean there's. I could stop at every page. So I'm really trying to be intuitive, as I said.

Yeah, and you have to go to the Santa Monica proper.

Yes, I've been there before.

Oh, you've been there?

No, I've been there. It's beautiful. No, I've been there. I've had. I've been, I've been there for birthdays and events and. Yeah, that, that space is spectacular. Downstairs, upstairs, I've been on the rooftop as well. Well, to. It's a really beautiful space. I love the use of like plants and nature. Like to me, these kind of spaces, of course, these kind of spaces are really special with like this kind of composition. But that feels similar to the first one I showed you, I think. But when people are trying to do plants in their home, how should they think about it? Because I feel like that's something that people try hard and struggle with. Keeping them alive is one thing. But what about in terms of placement.

You know, like, that is where having something that, if you have a really amazing amaz. Incredible. Yeah, that's. That's so great. Well, we are so fortunate to work with some amazing talents and. But I actually love going to the nurseries and seeking out these unbelievable specimens that have, that are imperfect and that really transform your interior. And I think too, like less is more. Although I do love. You know, we're working on a project where there's a solarium and there's. There's so many incredible plants and different colors of green and the pots and it just tells a really beautiful story. And that project, that is a artwork. That's a vase, the chair. Do you see?

This is probably one of my favorite rooms you've ever done. I love this room.

Yeah, so that's the grotto. And the grotto actually the inspiration. It's A library. When we were working on this hotel, I wanted an intimate space where people could go and have a meeting and hang out. And this is a hotel that's in Santa Monica. And so the, it's like maritime. I mean that was the, the inspiration. And so I went to a friend's parents house and they were an older couple and they live in Malibu. And I remember walking in their home and being so inspired because they had this incredible artwork and they had a library and all of these things that, you know, they're well traveled couple that they've collected their whole life and it just feels. Felt so real and represented them. And so this room, the Grotto we called it, we brought in a lot of emerging artists from Los Angeles and then we also found a lot of vintage pieces as well. And it's just a great place that you can have a meeting and it's like being in a, in a grotto.

Yeah, little, little podcast studio right there. Yeah, I love it. No, it's beautiful. And like I said, I could go on and on. I'm glad we did that though, because I love hearing you react and tell us the story behind incredible things.

And I'm such a visual person. Like it helps to like see, to see things because I am like so visual and it's such a, you know, big part of, you know, my spirit and what I do. And that was like, when I was doing the masterclass, they were like, listen, we want you to, you know, you're going to be, you know, the teacher and you're just going to talk. And I was like, but you guys, everything is like so visual and tactile and there's like materiality and so much to the story. And so we went outside the box and went on some site visits, which is so fun.

Yeah, absolutely. Oh. Oh yeah. You actually went out with the class.

We went out, yeah.

That's incredible.

Yeah, we went out to and toured. And I think then people can apply. And I think if somebody is not like really skilled at design, like they also need to see things as well. So that helps them to apply it to what they're trying to do.

Absolutely. And people can actually learn from you directly from the masterclass. So that's, that's a great way of giving people the tools. If you're inspired from today, then hopefully the masterclass will help you piece together all these amazing lessons that Kelly's sharing. Kelly, you didn't. You've said before or I've learned before that you didn't always plan on being A mom or like, you didn't think about it as your natural course, but it's something that, of course, I've even met some of your children, I believe, as well.

Yes. Yes. Yeah. So my, like, growing up, you know, my. My mom worked, my grandmothers both worked. And so having the white picket fence was not in my mind. I wanted to work. And I really love design from when I was doing my bunny shop when I was 7 years old and really discovering my passion in high school. And just like you, I love graphic design. And that's kind of where it all started from, is going to the flea markets with my mom and seeing all the magazines. And so I really wanted to work and be, you know, have a career. And then I met my incredible husband, Brad, and a family was important to him. And I was like, okay, I got to think about it. You know, I have an open heart. Like, I'm in love with, you know, I'm in love with my husband. And so I said, let's do. We'll have one. We got engaged, and I got pregnant. That was the most transformational, like, moment in my life. My family is everything, and kids are like the most incredible layer to life. And I love what I do, like, absolutely love what I do, but it's like, there's nothing like it. And it's like just everything. And yeah, it's the most beautiful thing. My kids are my heroes. They teach me so much about life and, you know, and I just had a baby and, you know, so many people are like, oh, well, you have two older kids and, like, you know, what would you do differently, like, reflecting and is spend the most amount of time with your kids now because it goes by so fast.

Yeah. How's that been with also, of course, your ambition and you're working on so many projects, like you've been able to, it sounds like, be so present with your kids and not have to give up your passion. And I think that that's such an important thing that we also need to see as well, because I think in that advice of people thinking, God, I need to spend every time we kind of. Of let go of the things that you value. How have you. And I don't like the word balance, because I don't think that's necessarily what I'm asking. It's almost like, how do you keep passion and presence alive? Present with your family, but then your passion, which kind of keeps you alive. How do you keep both alive?

It can be a struggle. And what I do is when I'm at work, I am so present with my team and I go to my studio. Like, I love going to my studio. I'm like in the thick of it with them every day, but I make time for my kids and obviously there are things that you miss out on and it's all about prioritizing and having a routine and schedule. And yes, like reflecting with Oliver and Elliot when they were younger. And this is before there was zoom, meeting and working from home and all that is I missed things. I was traveling and it broke my heart. But I was also happy. I was happy that I was being fulfilled as a designer and I was living my dream and I am living my dream and they see that and makes me an incredible mom because I get to teach them things. But, yeah, it's definitely can be tough.

What is the difference between creativity and replication? And is replication the theme of creativity?

It's such an interesting question. And for me, creativity comes within. It's your soul and it's your stylistic voice and replication is looking outward. So what maybe inspires you to design a certain way? And. And for example, replication can inform creativity. And if we're designing a front desk of a hotel and the functionality works so well, we're going to incorporate that, but then we're going to give it a new spirit by skinning it with another material. So that's where the replication comes into play. But creativity truly comes from within and it's an artist or a designer or chef. It's like it's their creative, their creative voice.

When, when you were on the journey towards this successful career you have now, were there moments of experiencing burnout where it's like, okay, I've taken this project on. Okay, well, I've got another project, but oh no, they want me to do the whole house and oh my gosh, now I've got another one. And I feel like a lot of creators today, especially online, feel a lot of burnout because they feel like they have to keep up with their own success.

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They may have had an overnight moment, which led to more work, which is exciting but equally challenging. Even during the pandemic. There were so many companies that went through their biggest scaling, but also led to people having to work harder and longer. So how have you thought about burnout?

Saying no is just as important to saying yes. And there are projects that I really wanted to take, but it just would have just overindated and stressed the studio. And so timing is everything. And I know there's gonna be other projects that will be on the horizon, but you wanna do a. I'm personally so involved in every aspect of my business. I'm in my studio every day, providing the creative leadership to the team. I'm involved in the business I'm involved in. So every aspect of the studio. And so you really have to kind of pick and choose, like, the right time.

Yeah.

How do you trust that the next project will come? I think that's so brave and thoughtful that you're like, look, I want to do a great job. I'm only going to take these few projects. I get it. I have to say no, even though I'm so in love with this. But I trust that the right projects will come. How did you kind of build that sense of trust? Because I think a lot of us fear that, oh, no, maybe I'll never get an opportunity again if I miss this one. So how did you have that more open mindset that, yes, I trust?

Well, because it came from the mistake of taking on. At one point, I took on a lot of work, and I just remember, just, oh, my God, I cannot wait for these projects. It was. We were doing three hotels at one time and some residential projects. And so, of course, I'm like, well, we're just gonna hire more people. But you have to be so in tune with your team. And when you have a lot of new team, it takes like a year or so for them to really get in sync with what's going on in the studio, how it operates, what's the philosophies, and so making the mistake of taking on too much. And I remember it was a really like. Like, stressful time, and I was burning the midnight oil and the team was. And then you lose a team because they're burnt out, and that's terrible. And so really, from those mistakes, I learned to pace myself.

Do you have a turn off When I sleep. That's good.

When I sleep and I hit the pillow so hard and I'm out. And I have the Oura ring, which I love, so I know I sleep very well. But, yeah, when I sleep is when I completely turn it off. But then I dream design. I really. I dream design. It's amazing. And I'll wake up and I'm like, oh, my God, I wish I had turned the corner to see, like, what was next or so. But sleep. And I go a million miles a minute, and I love it. I would not have it any other way. I love. I'm not, like, a great person with a lot of free time. I love being busy.

I mean, tell us about some of your dreams. Have you ever invented, created, curated in your dreams and taken something out of it or 100%?

Like, there was, like, the staircase, actually, in Austin.

I love that staircase.

Like, that was, like, kind of a moment of something that I dreamed about. And the pottery, and it's kind of like not something you would traditionally see, like a really big staircase in a new contemporary architecture. And so that was something that. That I dreamed about. And, like, the other night, I was having a dream that I was in a house, and there was, like, this really amazing light fixture that had all of these, like, strings of some sort with these small little lights. And it was, like, really. It was, like, very artistic. Like, it's in my mind's eye, and we'll see where it comes up in the design. But, yes, I do dream design.

I love that. That's wonderful to hear because, yeah, it just shows how obsessed you are and how immersed you are in the world that it's even happening in your dreams. And that staircase, it's so amazing, though. And I love that it's dreamtime, but.

Also it's being visual, because I see so many images, like, all day. Because when we're doing concept presentations, we're constantly curating images to help present our story and the concept to the client. And so I just have this library of images constantly going through my head. Head. So I know that obviously, is the inspiration for my brain.

Yeah.

And I love the dream to design, because when I'm reacting to that staircase, people like, Jay, it's a staircase, relax. But it really does spark so much joy. Like, I look at it and I go, wow. Like, you know, and so it's amazing how design from your dream can actually spark moments of awe, which are so nice to experience when you're just walking around doing your daily tasks, you know, so special. I want to ask you a question, Kelly. Around artists valuing their work, or even creatives or coaches or experts or whatever it may be. I think so many of us, and I get this question a lot, Jay. I don't feel confident enough to charge what I think I'm worth, like people forget the amount of time they trained, people forget the amount of time they worked. It becomes really hard to come up with an hourly rate or a project rate or a piece of art.

Right.

I have friends who are artists who are constantly like not knowing how to charge. How did you make sense of how you wanted to price yourself? And how do you encourage people to figure out how they price themselves? What things could they think about in order to do that?

Well, it all has to do with if you really want to be involved in the project. For example, we just had this happen. Like there's a really amazing project that's in Asia that, you know, I'd love to be part of and our fee was too high and I know I'm going to be very involved, but I really want to take the project. And so the client came back and was like, how can we make this work? So I think it's like communication and, you know, and really, you know, both parties valuing each other's worth. And so I think just being in really, you know, great communication. And we'll have, you know, some emerging artists that I know are struggling and they're just getting started and we want to bring them on to a project for a commission and, you know, we'll figure out ways like, can we internally help them get to a place where it's not going to be as time consuming? So I think there's really many different ways that communication is key.

How did you go about creating your first pricing structure? Because I feel like when someone's starting out as a creative, as a designer, as an artist, they can struggle so much with their self worth and what their value is, but they don't want to miss out on the client. And so how would you encourage someone to think about pricing themselves and how did you do it?

I really wanted the job, like my first project, I really wanted a job. And as I said, I didn't work for a design studio, so I didn't know really how, how to charge. And so I asked them, I said, what do you feel comfortable paying me to do this project? And they told me and I was like, wow. And so I came back to them with something I found, you know, thought was fair. And we met in the middle, but I was doing, I really wanted the project. And so that is one of the projects that I actually did the painting myself. And if you know this is a stepping stone in your career, then maybe you do take less for it. I think you have to look at all the different factors in how you charge. And is it for a friend, Is this gonna be a big step in your career or is this something that you know is going to take a lot of time on your part and your team's part and you have to charge accordingly?

Yeah. And I think that honesty, that's a. That what you just shared there is really smart and I want people to really listen to that. Is it a favor for a friend? Is it a project? Because it's just so epic, you don't get to do things like that. Is it actually just going to take a lot of your time? And it's not that epic. Like, it's just. Just work. Which level is it? Because that's going to affect how you price yourself. And I'd also add that I found that when people are coming up with their hourly rate, they're usually thinking about how much an hour is worth. But really it's not about your hourly rate. It's about the hours it took to get there. So for you to learn the skills you have, the hours it took for you to make it as simple or as accessible or as useful as it did to that individual. Whatever it is that you're offering, of course it includes the hard costs of materials and things like that, but really you're charging for how much someone values that time or effort or work. And in these circles, it can be hard to understand. And I think looking at other people that you aspire to be like or people that are in your fields can help you find that middle ground. But again, I love what you said about figuring out where it ranks in the order of.

Yeah. And most clients and are, like, reasonable. And if you. If you really, really lay out, like, it's going to take me this amount of hours or it's going to take a year to get this done. And it's like this, you know, this much of a team and also the skill set, because if you're going to bring someone on, you know that they have an incredible skill set. They're going to save you time, but they're also going to save you money at the end because a mistake is money. And so is it worth to pay someone up front who knows exactly what they're doing and how to operate.

That was great. Kelly, it's been such a joy talking to you today, and I'm glad that we've. This has been a very unique episode. We've been reacting to beautiful pictures in your book. I've loved hearing about your stories as well of just, you know, the steps that it's taken to build this phenomenal career that you're having. And I love that you still feel like you're just at the beginning, which is such a great mindset to have. But as you know, as a fan of the podcast, we end every episode with a final five, and you have to answer all these in one word or one sentence maximum. But I always digress. So let's start with the final five. All right, question one is, what is the best design advice you've ever heard, received or given? Diversity of everything. I'll let you expand now.

Diversity of scale, of eras, materiality. Because you don't want to buy all your furniture in one place. And so many people do. They'll go to one place and buy all their furniture because in a rush. And so diversity is like, so, so important.

Good advice. All right, so don't buy everything from ikea. Trust me, I know. Yeah, I've done that many times. All right, got it. Second question. What is the worst design advice you've ever heard, received or given that a.

Project has to be done in such a short amount of time that you're forced to buy everything right now? Good advice, because you want to. To curate everything over time so it's meaningful.

I. I made that mistake earlier this year and we didn't. Luckily, I didn't go through with it, but with the house was finished and I wanted to do art. And that's the thing. You should least rush. But there was so much a part of me that was like, I'm just tired of looking at blank walls and I want to feel inspired in this space. And I of, like, I was quickly looking at collections and everything. Luckily, my wife is so. I'm a very decisive, quick person. And my wife is like, really slow and will never make a decision if she doesn't have to. And so we balance each other out really well because I'll be like, yeah, I think this will fit there. And she'll be like, no, I don't think so. And then we'll sit with it. And I think this idea of sitting with things is such a great. You've. You mentioned it multiple times in this conversation. And I've learned that skill through, through working on my own home, that sitting with something is the most important thing. But often we think once we bought it and put it together, we have to keep it. And luckily there is a refund policy and a return policy. You can give things back. And I think it's. It's interesting, the idea of sitting with something is something we struggle to do. We think once we bought it, we have to keep it or we didn't buy it.

Well, everything just so fast now. Everything, like, just is like going a million miles a minute and you feel like you have to get something done. And it's such an exciting process of, like, you're curating things that you're going to put into your home, but, you know, take the long road home.

Question three. I know you do a lot of health and fitness is a big priority in your life. In order to. How does that affect your creativity?

I come up with a lot of ideas. It's just. It's unbelievable having just this. It's active meditation for me. Me, where I can just cleanse my. My brain and. And a lot of things come to me when I want to run and. And I love to sauna as well. Yeah, it's my active meditation. And when you create this clear space in your brain, it allows for creativity.

And is running your main form of that? Or is that and sauna? Or are there others? Or is that your main.

Yeah, no, I do. I do a little bit of everything. I like to change it up because you want to surprise your body. Just like you. You always want to surprise your audience. You know, it's the same thing with you and me and design and so surprising. Your body is so important. So I'll do Pilates, cardio, strength training, like, mobility work, like a little bit, everything. And I love playing tennis and also Padel.

Oh, yeah, I love Padel.

Padel's so cool.

I keep missing your tennis parties. I'm so upset with myself. I love tennis, too. And whenever you invite me, I'm out of town or traveling. It makes me so sad.

We just put in a Padel court at our house. House. And it's so much fun. It's such a great, like, social sport.

With the glass walls.

With the glass walls. And we played the first time last year we went to Brazil and they're all over there.

Yes.

And it's so much fun.

I got into it in Dubai, and so Dubai has really taken off. And then I played it in Miami, but it hasn't taken off in LA because pickleball has. So I've been playing pickleball, but Padel is.

We just this weekend met this guy who's a Padel. He's from Spain. He's like a Padel expert. He's a teacher, and he told us there are 11 courts in Los Angeles where they're like. There were people's homes there's actually one, ironically, on Santa Monica, like, near, like, by the Peninsula Hotel. Like, a really random place. But it's such a. It's such a fun sport, and I like it because it's a little more, like, skill and a little more challenging.

It's a little more unpredictable than pickleball, for sure.

Because.

Because you've gotta be great at physics to play Padel.

Yes.

You have no idea.

It's like chess. It's like active chess. It's like. So, yeah, it's so fun and social. And really social.

Absolutely. All right, question four and five. Last two questions. Question four. What's the first thing you think about when you look at a space to bring it to life?

What's outside the window?

Interesting. Walk us through that.

It's like, what is outside the window so important because it's part of your interior. It's like, you have to look at it. Is it's, like, your first piece of art in the room? So is it a tree? Is it another building across the street? Is it the mountains? You know, it's so important to. To the space.

Wow. That I did not expect that. There you go. You know, And.

And how.

How do you use that to infer what goes on inside?

Well, if we're selecting, like, we were working on a project in New York, and there was a terracotta building outside the window. And so, like, it was. There are large windows. There was five of them that go across this elevation. And so it's really. It's like a large piece of art in the room. So we need something that really speaks to the window and the materiality on the building. And so we had to consider it. And so it's really, you know, important part of design.

What are some of. I'm digressing here from the final five, but what are some of the biggest, biggest mistakes you think we make when it comes to setting up our spaces in our rooms? What are some things to avoid that people can look out for?

Like, one thing that I love that I think a lot of people like, for small spaces, mirror goes so such a long way, and it actually really feels good. Like, there's great feng shui in mirror, and where it's placed is so important, and in. It not only creates a window, if you have one window in your room. Like, we're working on a hotel project in Lake Tahoe, and we're using really beautiful millwork and incorporating mirror and the transformation of the room and what it does to the space is unbelievable.

Wow. Yeah.

That's a great note, but I would say too, the furniture, really low seating just is. Makes your space seem so much more expansive. And lighting is so important. And like, one thing like we really avoid is like just directional down lights. You have to be so careful that they're not over seating areas because, you know, we have people and come to the hotel, we want people to look like great and feel amazing. And so lighting is like really, I think, underestimated and should be really considered.

Got it. All right, great answers. All right, fifth and final question. If you could create one design law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

Really understand what your style is and frequent museums and galleries and go out and see what things say to you, because you're going to discover something that you didn't know was inside you that's going to make your interior barrier represent who you are.

I think that's great life advice and design advice. It's knowing who you are and allowing enough input. I definitely found that when we moved from London to New York and then from New York to la, it was just. I just got exposed to so much more than I'd ever been exposed to. And that exposure is what also helped define and edit who you were and who you wanted to be.

And you're constantly changing, like, the more you see, like, I look at projects I do did 20 years ago, and they're great, but they're different than how I would approach things now. Just taking your time is so important. And I go a million miles a minute and I get excited about things and I want things to happen now, but really, it's like taking your time. Pace is everything.

Well, Kelly, thank you for your time today and thank you for being so present and gracious and kind. And thank you for being so, so trusting of me. I've loved having this conversation with you, and I hope that everyone who's been listening or watching has found some inspiration, some spark some creativity to help enliven and bring to life their spaces. Because I really do believe design can make you happy. I really do believe that design and aesthetics in our spaces can define how we feel and how we move and the emotions that we go through. And so thank you.

And design, too. Jay, is something else about design that we're speaking that is. Is very aesthetic, but it also makes our lives easier. And that's something that continues to get better and better and which is going to give us more time. And so not only the aesthetic of design, but also the functionality, which is really critical.

Give us an example of that, because that's a great, great point. And we didn't talk about that. Tell us a bit more about how we can think about our spaces functionally in order to make them easier as well. What have you found or what little tips have worked for you for that?

Well, in our studio, we're actually working with AI. And after, like, during the holidays and, you know, the fall when OpenAI announced the, you know, generative intelligence and what it can do, I just listened to a lot of podcasts and read up on it and I was like, I'm going to implement this in my studio in some way. And I. Obviously, you can't go full force into it, so in each department, I have a director and we're using it every day. And it's been really profound and really inspirational. And it's not designing spaces for us, but it is actually generating ideas that we can implement into a project and something that maybe we never thought of. And I tell the team, I'm like, listen, this is like, you have a junior design designer by your side that can help implement it. I'm super bullish on AI and what it's doing for my business is, is unbelievable. And we're only, like, at the surface. And soon we're not going to have just a junior designer. Everyone's going to have a senior designer working for them. And it's not going to take away what we do because you got to have somebody driving the ship. But it's. It's fascinating and love it.

Yeah. No, I love hearing you embrace that because I think so many people get scared. Like, oh, no. Like, people can just design their rooms by AI, But I think when you're confident and conscious of what you're doing, what do you think? What parts do you think it's going to help replace and help solve versus what parts do you think you're like, well, wait a minute, my brain will always be able to, you know, do this part.

It's. It's just generating, like, idea generation, but also like Photoshop and how quickly that you can get things done now. So maybe we can take on a certain amount of work a year, but it's gonna enable us to probably take on more projects and be more efficient with our time. And then when you're more efficient with your time, your team's more happy because then they have free time. So I think it's going to make our. And this is. I'm not an expert in AI, I'm just telling you how I'm using it. And my studio using it. But it's going to benefit us in so many ways and helping give us more free time and idea generation, which is great because it's like having a new person on your team, a new creative spirit on a project every day, which is unbelievable. Which is unbelievable.

Yeah. That's great. I love it. Well, thank you again, Kelly. Thank you so much. This is so wonderful. I hope you.

Yeah. You're amazing and thanks for having me. And I'm so happy to be here finally with you. And you're amazing.

Thank you kind. Well, I'm glad that we keep deepening our friendship and I'll never forget the first time I met you and how kind and sweet you were to me. So thank you so much. And I'm glad that, you know, the book's available. I'm glad that I'm glad that we're drinking from your glasses. This is. This is spectacular. These are beautiful. I can't wait to shop the whole collection. Thank you so much.

If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with Dr. Daniel, a layman on how to change your life by changing your brain.

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Hey, it's Joel and Matt from how to money. If your new year's resolution is to find finally get your finances in shape. We've got your back prices, they're still high and the economy is all over the place. But 2026 is the year for you to get intentional and make real progress. That's right, yeah. Each week we break down what's happening with your money, the most important issues to focus on, and the small moves that make a big difference. Kick off the year with confidence. Listen to how to Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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