Ask us anything | Founder’s Office™ Lunch & Learn

Welcome everyone to the Founder's Office Lunch and Learn. Whether this is your first session or whether you've joined us before, we're grateful that you're here. Our Lunch and Learn series is designed to bring founders practical conversations around the challenges that matter most. These are not meant to be sales presentations, but rather working conversations intended to help founders build strong companies, make better decisions, and realize that they don't have to solve every problem alone. We encourage you to participate throughout today's discussion. You can just drop your questions right in the chat as they come up, and we'll answer as many as we can live. And if we don't get to yours today, we'll plan to build future sessions around your questions. Today we're introducing a concept that sits at the center of everything we do at the Founder's Office. The Founder's Isolation Paradox. Now, we've talked about this before, but we're going to dive in a little bit deeper and distinguish what happens when you make a decision that might be good for your business but bad for you personally, or vice versa. I'm joined by Candice Powell and Katie Powell Hinnitz. And let's kick this off, guys. Let's talk. Where do we want to start with business decisions and— Potentially personal decisions and how they overlap.

I think that, I mean, it's a broad conversation. And in our prep for this call, you know, we kind of went down a lot of different routes of how we could have this. But so often this is the main underlying tone of our conversations with founders every single day. When they are at a big decision point with their business, they're raising capital, they have to do a restructure, they're doing a merger, they're looking to exit. So often they're getting advice or really trying to look at it from this business perspective and how to either solve a problem, take care of something that needs to be solved, maybe mitigate risk, or sometimes they're adding risk, but it The cost-benefit analysis. And so a lot of times what we're having to do is have those deeper conversations about how is this impacting you personally? What are the personal goals outside of just the business goals? A lot of times we want to get to know our founders' key partnerships in their life, and we're not talking business partnerships all the time, although those are really important. We do want to get to know their personal relationship partnerships, their significant other, their spouse, what their child situation is, if they have any. Are they involved in the business? Are they small? Are they adults? Do they have interests in participating? And what are their goals? You know, I think sometimes growth can become the overwhelming goal and What are the personal goals that they have and what are maybe the personal goals that their partnerships or their family life has as well? And do they line up?

For me, Cam, that really sparks, like, I think something that we've seen both in practice and personally, which is even the space to think about personal goals outside of the business. can be unique to the founder experience. Like when you think about, I'm going to take this kind of at the end of the founder lifecycle and then bring it back, which is at the end, we see that exits can really fail, right? Because the founder is not really ready to let go. Like, I think we underestimate how much of one's identity can be wrapped up in the thing that they've created, rightfully so. Like, Creation has been from them. And when it's time to start maybe thinking about that dreamy, oh my gosh, I can't wait to be, to be exited, and I can't wait for these things. When it comes time for that to be true, it can be really disorienting. And so, you know, what's been right for the business all those years has been that undivided energy. Mm-hmm. But that's not right for the founder and also for the business because then the exit becomes really compromised, right? And so those are one of those examples where we think, oh, this is exactly what the business needs. But often we see that it can be somewhat of, of a downfall to the business if a founder's not taking those steps to really think about life more holistically, especially with their, their primary partnership.

I think it goes hand in hand with the grind culture we have a little bit too. And you see this idea of we have to grind and it's a lot of work to build a business and there is a grind in it. It is. In a lot of ways, you are making a lot of personal sacrifices. A lot of times we're coming in to unwind many of the personal sacrifices. Both the time and the financial commitments that founders have made to get their business to where it's at. We're coming in and trying to untangle that. You know, they've they've put their personal assets on the line. They're still signing personal guarantees, and they're still the one up at four in the morning and working until they go to bed. And all of those pieces get you to where you're going. They do. That's that's a lot of times how founders are getting their businesses launched and getting them to. to pretty significant growth, there is a tipping point where that actually starts to become a detriment to both the business, the potential exit or potential growth, because a person can only do so much. But also the personal side of that coin can also be really Taking, taking a back seat, sometimes not even having a seat at the table at all. And so, and you and I, you know, it's funny, we, we have an interesting perspective in this, and I think it brings value. We grew up as children of founders. You know, we grew up in the family business doing little filing, whatever our jobs could be. And then have been founders ourselves, have been spouses of founders, and been founders as part of a family business. We've exited businesses on our own independently, started businesses on our own independently. And each time you do that, the perspective is different. The phase of life you're at is different. And we were talking yesterday, and I can't wait. for Dad to come home so we can ask him. I want to ask him, how was that decision-making owning the business that he had when we were kids? And he owned a few, but there was a couple significant ones. And I'm curious how his decision-making and his personal life with small kids in the house and weighing how to spend time as a parent and as a business owner and growing this business, and it was a national company. How those things weighed in, how he feels about it now being where he's at in the phase of life he is at. And I think there's so much value to that because it's not just a one-size-fits-all. It's, it's all in chapters. And that's part of what we have to do is kind of unpack the chapter that you're in and what the priorities are.

I love that frame, chapters. Jacque?

No, I agree. And I think That's no matter where you're at, you're in some sort of chapter, whether you're just starting out or whether you're like midway or near the end of something. But it is worth unpacking because I think this can sneak up on you when you're a founder. Again, no matter what stage, it happens in little tiny little increments, right? Where you and the business end up having your identity kind of tied together. In a lot of cases, The business is just, its reputation is whatever the founder is. The founder becomes known for something and starts a business, and then they share this identity. And also, as far as like IP goes, which I'll circle back on later, but you're contributing your ideas, your talents, your time, your resources to get this business going. So again, it doesn't happen just overnight where you flip a switch. It's these tiny little calibrations over time.

Yeah.

Where incrementally you and the business become kind of one. And we work a lot on de-risking that, right? Because you don't ever want to have like— you don't want to— the same reason you don't want to commingle accounts. You don't want to ever like have this piercing the veil where you are the company. And for key person risk, there are so many reasons to be intentional about Having you here or your family here and the business here. And then, being strategic about even just having a framework within which to make decisions so that you're assessing both and kind of keeping sight of it really. Because I think the biggest risk happens when you're not keeping sight of the separation, the difference.

You know what comes to mind for me there too is like using, layering on, Kan, your analogy of the chapters. there. It's like sometimes you, if you're, if you're so in it, what we see is you can't even like pull yourself up for air to make sure that you're striking that right balance. Right. I think we've seen that time and time again. And I think that does lead to the benefit of, of almost having somebody, we talked about it a couple of weeks ago with the founder's isolation paradox, like someone who has walked that path before, who've been in those similar chapters. Everyone's different. Everyone's business is different. But there are themes. And for someone to be able to say, like, I've been in that chapter, these were the misses that I had, right? These were the things that if I could have pulled myself up for air a little bit, seen the full picture, I would have been really careful about that, that piercing of the veil, or I would have been really intentional about building it this way, right? And I think that is the, the beauty of, of kind of that mentorship for founders when oftentimes founders are the people pulling everybody else forward toward their vision. But, but who's the person pulling kind of the founder and helping them, you know, come up for air when, when time is needed to?

And, you know, I think when does the business— this is something we really try to analyze and bring back to the surface for our founders. When does the business Taking more from your family than it gives? And sometimes it's really, really hard for a founder to answer. And it's not necessarily just financially. It can be time. It can be the energy. And we're not saying that's not something that happens. It does. It's just there's business cycles. But what we really try to focus on is how do we shift that? How do we make some changes? How do we minimize some of that risk? And I will tell you, again, back to the chapters, there's risks I'm not willing to take now that I was willing to take on some of my first businesses because I didn't have— it was just me. I didn't have a family. I didn't have the things. You know, I wasn't married. didn't impact anybody but me. And I think you have different, you know, in this chapter that I'm in exiting one of my businesses and it, Dad and I had a good chuckle about it because there's something different about being a founder in this chapter of life. I remember being a kid and Dad getting a phone call or having to deal with something and we are on like a family vacation and it is, you know, it's like, oh, And sure enough, I'm trying to exit and I'm at Disneyland with my oldest and I'm stressed and just trying to deal with this, deal with this issue. And it is eating me alive. And in addition to financial, I'm also going through, I was sacrificing my health at that point. And that's, that's the recognition of, oof, this is taking more than it's giving. And so making those changes, and that was a very different change that I would need to make than maybe I'll need to make in 10, 20 years. And it was very different than what I would have needed to make 10 years ago when I, or more than that, when I sold my first business, my first bigger business, when I sold that, it was just a very different experience. And so, Recognizing and checking in and repeatedly kind of understanding what is the give and take between the person, the business, and the family, and what are the sacrifices, the risks, and the value. And we'll talk more about the IP piece because that's such an important part of this. And, and if you can put a number to it, which that's the hardest part. Because we still want to be able to analyze it, right? We still want to be able to actually look at data at the end of the day and still figure out how these sacrifices are working and investment. And at what point is this investment becoming maybe detrimental?

I love that quantification piece is something. So I kind of want to bring it back. We've got 2 really great things in the chat, but can I think you said something so profound that I don't hear a lot of people say, which is in— as you're saying, okay, well, the decisions I made previously aren't the decisions I'm making now and likely not the same decisions I'll make in the future. I feel sometimes in experience and in helping others with this, it's like once you get your feet about you, right, you get your footing, then life changes and now you're learning how to do it a little differently again. Like it's just a moving target a little bit.

Yeah.

And I think just Calling it as such can just help understand, like, okay, I've learned really well how to, how to navigate that now at that phase of my life, but it's now time to start this next new chapter. And, and I don't know if I, if I hear a lot of people say that. And to your point about data, Betsy brings up such a great point, which is, you know, having a discipline for self-care and time away. That is something that you can manage. You can look at the days off. Right? Like, so in managing people in big organizations, right, you, you look at their PTO, right? You're like kind of mandated to. No one's holding that founder to account of how many days off and offline have you had.

And what people also don't talk about is how that adds value to your organization. That actually is something that adds value and It's not recognized or honored enough. We're really proud of our founders when they are actually able to move the needle on how much time they are taking off, how long they're able to leave their business and really disconnect. And the business is not only running, but thriving, getting new clients, achieving goals. Those things are huge, huge, huge markers for success that we actually actively work with founders on to get them there. When they're untangling something personal, when they've had their personal assets on the line or they've signed personal guarantees, it is a big, big, big milestone when they are able to secure something, some financing, and they are not attached to it. The business is standing on its own. These are all personal big milestones, but then it also is a big value add to the organization.

What do you say, Candace, to someone in the audience who says, you don't understand, I can't step away. I can't. A day away from email or without phone calls would sink my business, or it's just too painful to come back from, right? I can't take one day or like a long weekend on vacation. And come back because I'm buried in my inbox in things that are like mission critical. What do you say to someone who is feeling that right now?

I've had those businesses. I have had that. I had one in particular that I just literally couldn't leave. I actually, I left to get married and I was so stressed the whole time because I left my business for 3 days. It was the only time I took any day away from my 7 days a week and I did not think I could make it through that. I would say what I was told and I was pretty upset at the time hearing it. I didn't have a business. I had a job and we need to figure out how to shift this and there's tweaks we can make. I don't expect somebody to just go, okay, I'm out. I've been told I need to leave for the day. That's not how we fix it. We need to really work on team and culture. A lot of what we do internally is working with our clients on their team and building out their team in a way that a lot of times people do have people in their organization that they can trust that are doing the work and maybe aren't given enough, you know, autonomy to go further and expand a little bit. And so, yeah, but I think the first recognition is that you're in the very not sexy part, which is you have a job and you probably have a very, very, very poorly paid job. And we got to fix that. We've got to make changes. And a lot of that starts with you letting go. If you were the hero to every situation, That's not great. That's not a business. And it also— nobody's going to want to buy that. And if they do, they're not going to pay you well for it because they don't want to buy a job.

Yeah, I mean, the data proves out that point, Ken, in which this isn't just for the health and well-being of the founder and their family and, and their well-being after and during the business, but it's actually like one of the The best ways you can increase the value of the business is that it's, it's self-sustaining beyond any one founder, right? Um, I want to point to, because I, Maxine, I think my answer would be part and parcel to this, which is I, we've all engaged in, um, what I would actually say is mentorship. Um, so we can each speak to like coaching and, and those, those types of things. What I would say in, if I were to share it with another founder, both in, in my experience helping, but also my experience would be find somebody who you feel has walked that path before you. One of the tricky things that I think can happen in some of these coaching world is that it's systems that are a little depersonalized from the founder and perhaps not people who've walked that path. And so it's systems on top of a person who needs support and to be seen and to like disentangle in the areas that feel messiest. And so finding the person that you feel you would like to emulate in those areas is like, that has been my biggest success lever is finding those. They're typically really wonderful, kind, brilliant, successful women who I go like, oh my gosh, I just want to learn from you. And they've been very gracious in mentorship. So not enrolling in the formal programs, but really apprenticing some of the ways that they've been able to lead successfully their businesses and lead the life that I seek to have in my own existence. So, Kan, what would, what would you say for your experience?

Yeah, I think it leads into Maxine asked a great question. At what point in your journey do you seek support from an executive or business coach, if at all? If not, why not? I am a firm believer you should always have some sort of coach, mentor, trusted person Therapist, all of those things. You do need that support. Recognizing that there are different roles, they may not be the same person all the time. I need a very different coach and mentor than I needed in my first business. I'm in a different phase of life, so the challenges that I'm dealing with are different now. I also look, I, you know, one of the things that coaches do when they're advertising, I don't need somebody who has some coaching certificate. That's, I don't, I don't actually seek out anybody with some coaching certificate. And I'm actually put off by someone that has something that says, did all these winning things. And I'm excited for them and proud of them. I, and I've said it on here before. I want to know that they've been through the shit. I want to know that they've been in the grind that I'm in. Because if I— for a couple reasons, we can get a little— we see it in networking things, right? We're all like, I am so impressive. Oh my God, everything's going so great for me. And let me tell you all the things. And oh, I've got my— I've got it all together. I don't want to feel that way with a coach. I don't want to feel that way with a mentor. I want to be able to call them up when I'm peeling myself up off of the floor. And this did, because my sale is falling apart at the seams because I didn't know something or the business I just got. Another thing that happened, I got hit with a bunch of successor liabilities, which I would never do again. I know this now, 15 years later. More than— I don't know how long ago. I know what to look for now. What I want is I want the coach, I want the person who has gone through that and gone, oh yeah, okay, that sucks. It sucks. You feel awful. You feel sick about it. And here's what we're going to do now, because I've been through that. Maybe not the exact scenario, but I've been through this. And I can tell you right now, you're going to make it through. We're going to do things better and different this next time. So, and one of the things I should have done better was ask my dad to look at the deal I was entering into.

Even if you're a parent, right? I know.

I didn't want to ask dad for help. I was like, I've got this.

I've learned it through osmosis.

I can do this myself. And so some of that, again, getting rid of that pride and being able to confidently talk to your coach, talk to your mentor, talk to someone and be really vulnerable in that position. And so, yeah, I think coaching is huge. And I'm not knocking coaching certificates. They're very valuable because it means they're following a methodology and I think they're really important. But the meat behind the coaching is really what I care most about.

And that's that founder appreciation, right? I love what someone just put in the chat because it's, it's really about like looking for skills versus mentorship. So if you need to skill up in your executive— maybe you're leading a big team— like, you should be actively looking for people to teach you skills. That's the same with therapy, whatever flavor you need. But there's a different side between learning skills and having space to work through something with others.

Yeah.

And that distinct distinction, I think, can get lost Sometimes.

I think it's why one coach can't be a fix-all. Whatever phase, if you're starting up, if you're starting the business, you want coaches that have done it. If you're building a franchise model and you've got all of your— your goal is to build a bunch of franchises, you need a coach who specializes in that. If you're exiting, you want somebody who's done a number of exits. And who really understands it and has been through different types and is ready to jump in and give you some really concrete thought and advice on those specific things. So yeah, it's— you're not going to find one fix-all.

No. And I have— for me personally, the, the, the importance that I place on someone that's trusted in my life is they don't need to necessarily know my industry. There are those of you that will want to find someone who has been in your industry and knows exactly what you're doing and has walked the path. There are— there's definitely a huge value add there. But equally, I find that my most valued people, or like the springboards almost, they're people that know me and know what keeps me up at night, what bothers me. They know how I operate. They're gonna know my blind spots. Sometimes they know me better than I know myself. For like, to be really specific about it, um, I could be saying yes to things that should be nos, and one of my trusted people will see that and go, did you say yes because you felt like you had to? Did you say yes because you're a people pleaser and you didn't want to let someone down? You know, and then they'll listen and that without judgment or criticism, the you know, like this is gonna cost you because it should have been a no. And I know Candace, I like you. I love that you say you shouldn't should people. But you get what I'm saying. It's it's that tone of like a loving person that knows you. That's like, you know, they can help you assess these decisions because sometimes, especially when we're going fast, we default to like how we're wired. And so, as good, if not better, than a coach is someone who really knows you, knows how you operate, and can be there to help you spot your blind spots and be a support.

I don't want somebody to— I don't want somebody to ChatGPT me. I don't necessarily need somebody who's going to be like, you are so good and so smart. And I just— I don't—

I—

there's times I've really needed the tough love. And needed somebody to say to me the thing that I really did need to hear. It doesn't need to be hard or aggressive. I think that it can go a whole other way. That also doesn't work for me. There's times I'm still a delicate flower, but the right, the right coach will be able to say to you when You might be the problem in your business.

That is, I think, something that can be really missed. So, so as we're looking at what's right for personal and what's right for business, right, to the kind of theme of the day, something I would look out for, for founders in particular, is when you're enlisting somebody to help you in your founder experience, Understand and either intentionally request or intentionally know that there is a potential gap in which they only get your side of the story, and that can limit that blind spot picker outer. And so that's why it's important to say, okay, I'm struggling with this, or I see this new thing coming and I'm unprepared. The this is how I'm thinking about it. But if Someone doesn't know you well, to Jackie, your point, but also your team dynamics. They can't be pointing out those things to say, but I think you might be part of the problem here. And so really being intentional about the level in which you invite people to get that big purview based on their experience and the intention you're bringing somebody in, because a pitfall that I've seen in the organizational side of things is that people will be getting information and it's really disconnected from the team's experience. And ultimately, then that just means you're spending time and money in an area that's not going to pull the rest of the team upward with you. And so again, it's, it's dependent on the type of support that you're seeking out as a founder, but really be cautious or conscious Rather that you— it's also not a do-it-yourself project. You have your lens, you are holding everything together, but because of that, you're, you're likely not seeing a lot of the opportunities that may be able to allow you to get out of that kind of isolation. And, and somebody needs to be invited in that process with you.

Well, and Katie, it's part of what has led us to how we work direct with our clients that we do work direct with and that we've built our backend system to support so often. And this didn't happen overnight. This has come from decades and then us being in businesses and owning businesses for decades and having this recognition. And so I would guide people through, like, look for this model as you're looking for coaches. Personal is intertwined with our intake process. We really want to get to know where the overlap is. A lot of times, like I said, we do meet with the spouses or the partners or the significant relationships in someone's life because a lot of times that's where the vulnerabilities are going to come out. And we find out that, okay, no, this person isn't sleeping. They're sleeping 3 hours a night. We got to figure that out. And it's not, it's not to be a tattletale thing. It's just a, we want to be of most service. We want to understand what the goals are. And oh, by the way, this, this person's goal is this and this person's goal is this. And we've got some misalignment here. How do we, how do we maybe bridge? How do we have an open conversation about this? What are the goals? We really want to get to know And a lot of that was just because we've gone through businesses where we didn't necessarily know when to involve our spouse or family member on a certain major business decision that did impact the family. And it's not our job to tell your spouse what's going on, but it is our— we do take it seriously to at least collect some information, some of that anecdotal information of What's keeping them up at night? What's keeping, you know, what's, what's some of the, the areas that we can be aware of? That might be too intimate for people, and that's totally fine. But we have built our system to support that. And so that we have that framework. I do want to take because, you know, I want to keep to time. And this has been such a good conversation today. But I want to talk about the blur that happens that we see so often with the intellectual property, because that is the person and what they've put in and their personal intellectual investment. And it's so, it gets so easy to blur those lines and not being able to separate the IP from the person. And now it makes them the product at the end of the day instead of having a product. So Jackie, can we talk a little bit about how that impacts the kind of business decision versus life decisions when we've got a significant amount of IP involved?

It always depends kind of what point in the process you're at. But we like to start with our clients with like assessing where are we at today, and then what might be risky about where we're at today. If you're way earlier in your founder journey, in your IP journey, there's naturally, I think, going to be a little less risk. Whereas if you're further along, there might be considerable entanglement. Now, that's an assumption and it might not be true for everyone, but I think generally that's what we've seen. Founders are moving so fast. It's their ideas. It's their know-how, their knowledge, and they're off and running. They form a business. They've been building the business, growing it, scaling it, you know, selling their product for however long. And now it's like, oh, what about the IP? We have a client right now who has a very successful company and just wrote his book for the first time. Now, his company is entirely built on the concepts that he's describing in his book. Who does that IP belong to, right? There are just a lot of questions that we work with our clients on to like unpack it, unwind it, and kind of really create some clean lines and lanes. And then you can strategize from there. My suggestion to anyone in the audience, anyone listening is Don't panic. Be very slow to panic, but ask yourself whether, whether it might be worthy of a conversation and some real intentional action to make your IP situation clean and clear.

How does it help? And I am kind of asking you a question I kind of know the answer to, but I, I want to hear your perspective. I see people coming in and they feel like they're the business because it's all here. How do we see that helping long term with the business being them and their identity?

How does it help?

I mean, how does the IP— I think it's kind of this vague concept to a lot of So how does actually documenting this— because some, I think sometimes it just sounds like another job to get done.

I think it's helpful to reframe the way you're thinking about it, right? Think about it a little differently. I think that's where I would recommend starting. And I know we've got Betsy with us today, who's another fellow SEPA. So I'm going to borrow some language and use some quotes that she'll be familiar with. But 80% of a founder's business is tied up in their intangible assets. Right? And intangible assets, that's IP. So if you can be strategic about making those intangible assets more tangible or making them assets that are on your books, the way it helps long-term, Candice, is you are getting really intentional about what your business offers, how it does what it does, how it serves who who it serves. And in that way, you're actually going to create exponential value for a potential exit because someone's going to come in and go, oh my gosh. To your question, a lot of consultants are trademarking their frameworks. Curious to your perspective on this. I love it because if you have a framework that is uniquely yours and you deliver and you are, you're serving your clients in a specific way and you have a process and there's something unique and special about that, To me, that's IP. And if you ever want to leave but you still want those same clients serviced in the same way, you still want them to get the benefit of your IP, your know-how, your process, then cool, you've trademarked it and you, you have it set, it's understood. And a buyer coming in can go, cool, I can step in your shoes and use this, and I can buy this from you. By the way, it's a valuable asset, happy to buy it from you because I want to go apply apply it and implement it in the field. Yes, I want to buy this from you. Yes, I'm going to enhance your exit. And then now I can take it and still use that framework with the book of business or new clients, whatever.

Jackie, but what rings for me there— so Maxine, you're asking like, how do you make it tangible, right? The tangible component becomes the trade. It's the IP. It's extracting it and making it something that's named and claimed. And I think what that's not just a catalyst for, um, a sale, which is— it's like saying, um, I want to take over your consulting practice versus I'm purchasing kind of a tried and true method that someone can then go rep— like, go operate, right? So that's really what purchasers are looking for, is something that isn't just the trust of the founder. It's really part and parcel to everything we've talked about, but IP is such a crucial part of that. And Hammond, I see your concern. It's a concern that I think weighs on most founders, right? When it's all in your head and our dad would say, all founders exit. We work to help founders exit on their terms. One of the best steps, and Jackie, maybe you can walk through this, is, is really that IP, extracting it so it's not just living in the founder's head, but it's something that's replicable and actionable for people to steward beyond the founder. Would you say that that's true?

Absolutely. Yeah. And Hammond, I think you can take steps on this today to alleviate that concern. The first thing I would do is like sit down and And journal and really put in your words, what does your business do? What is its mission? What is its biggest value add? If you have products, what are those products? If it has services, what are those services? And what's important to you about how your company or your business provides those services? I would just literally, I would start journaling on that. And then we talk a lot about like succession plans. Bring your family into those conversations. And sometimes they're not easy. They're actually, they're very difficult. And there are resources and supports that can help you have those tough conversations, but they're hugely worthwhile. And it's been our experience that they can actually, while tough, really bring a family together. Once you get in and start deep diving, it can actually bring you closer and you've got, you know, this Share of knowledge, which can feel really good. That's how it starts. I'm sure Candice and Katie have their own thoughts to add to that.

No, I think it's— I think you're spot on. And I think it goes even deeper than that. Hammond, I love your question because I think it's— some of it starts with even, does your family want the business? We need to know, you know, you need to know. If they want it. And so wouldn't you want to leave something that is ready to sell? And, and really thinking through some of that, you know, planning. Do they, do they want it? If not, then we— then that's a different strategy. If they do, then that's amazing. And some of that is bringing them into the fold and giving them more and more information. And I will say this is something that our dad always left the door open. We bought and sold our own businesses. Katie and I both married other founders who have their own ventures. And so being in that entrepreneurial environment is It's very much part of our family lifestyle. But it is an active conversation and it wasn't, you will take this business over and that's how it's going to work. And it's always been kind of left open to us to make those decisions. We had a significant loss of intellectual property that wasn't documented. We, you know, my dad does talk about it. Uh, co— his, his partner for many, many years, uh, died very suddenly, and it taught us a lot. In all the ways that we were prepped for that, there were many ways we weren't. And so it's not just even about what you're leaving your family, it's about do you have other partners involved? What else do you have that needs to be documented and really in a position for, um, for succession. So there is a lot to unpack there. Um, and IP is a great— Jackie gave some great starting points.

It feels very much on the 2 sides of the, of the coin. IP, which is extraction and potential and, and protection. And then there's risk and de-risking. Right? And so, Hammond, I love the perspective that you're taking of you don't want to force the business on them. And I think sometimes that can feel like, well, then we're not going to talk about it. So not saying that that's your experience, but it is something that we've seen. And so Jackie and Candace's astute advice is talk about it early, right? Set expectations and know that they can change over time. And so it will. Impact certain decisions. You know, we've seen people who then need to get a really strong operator whose then expectation is that they will buy the business if it's outside of the family. Um, there's, there's things that you can be doing proactively when you say, Hammond, I want to give them options. We call that the optionality framework. It's one of our kind of our IP methodologies, right, which is increasing the amount of options founders have. to build more, do more, and kind of exit more in those ways by having some of those, those concrete de-risking and increasing value conversations.

That was awesome.

What a fun conversation.

Yeah, that was, that was so fun. We so appreciate the engagement. And this was a little bit more of a vulnerable conversation today. So we appreciate you guys being vulnerable with us too, because some of this was, you know, a part of our discussion. The personal and business side kind of naturally is a little bit more vulnerable. And so we just really appreciate everybody participating today.

We sure do. The questions made it so much better. Obviously, we can talk about this forever. What I would say is, if any of this resonated with you, um, I think the biggest takeaway that we would offer for this is that the decisions really rarely live in a clean-cut answer or with one person, right? Um, it's why it's— this is not a do-it-yourself project. Um, our work is helping founders see those connections between the personal, the business, and then the inherent risk within those gaps, um, between what they're wanting to build, right, in the life. I always say, like, what is the goal? And so starting from what is that goal and moving outward to kind of thread that needle. Jackie, you said it akin to like a web, right, of like a criminology web.

I see it like a detective's, like, criminal whiteboard with like Photos and strings everywhere, and you solve it.

I, I so hope we start integrating that into our client work. So everyone gets kind of their own little, little scene. But exactly. So we are always here and truly privileged to help fellow founders through their journey. Here's how you can get in touch with us. I'm seeing a couple of comments. Yes, this will live on our YouTube channel. So we'll be able to— I believe it's just the Founder's Office, but folks, correct me if I'm wrong there. It will also be posted on LinkedIn. It's also on our website where, if this resonated with you, you're welcome to reach out to us to talk a little bit more about these things. Before we wrap, I have to do my best, Tom. Impression, which is these.

Yeah, do I look like him?

These lovely ladies have just one of the best podcasts. I have been privileged to be a guest on it, and it really—I just have to say—every episode that I listen to of WTF, it just—it feels so genuine. You—I can't believe I get to work with you ladies because it's just—it's so—you're so knowledgeable, but you have such a gracious. And so really, really encourage you guys to listen, follow along. I believe Armina is who you are interviewing. Do you guys want to say anything about kind of your, your next up-and-coming guest?

Our guest this afternoon, Candace and I will go record after this. She is the founder of an AI business, and she's also a woman in academia. She's an educator. So We're going to talk with her a little bit about how AI might be changing education, might talk with her about being a woman in a business as a founder, and then also an educator. Very, very different hats. And she's just super smart, super cool. She's been a guest on Lunch and Learn in the past, actually. So if you're looking for back episodes, you'll find our talk with Armina. And then Miss Katie here as well has been a guest on our podcast. So find those episodes because she's as eloquent and brilliant as ever. Um, we love doing it. We love these conversations. We love your questions. And, um, I'll let my 2 co-hosts wrap it up, but thank you so much for being here today.

Thank you all. We look forward to seeing you all next week.

Thank you.