The Founder’s Isolation Paradox | Founder’s Office™ Lunch & Learn

Welcome everybody to the Founder's Office Lunch and Learn. We're super excited to be here. Whether this is your first session or you've joined us before, we're just grateful that you're spending a part of your day with us. Um, before we dive in, Jackie and Kan, I'm thinking that for folks new to the channel, we should probably do some introductions. So Jackie, do you want to kick us off?

I'd love to. Thanks, Katie. I'm Jackie Kuiper. I'm a co-founder of the Founder's Office. I am an attorney. My work specializes with regard to the Founder's Office in risk and risk mitigation, legal, largely transactional legal work and strategy, and then also IP.

Thank you, Jackie. Miss Candice, you're up next.

I'm Candice Powell. I'm a fellow founder at the Founder's Office. Um, I really focus on helping founders and founder families navigate growth and major, um, capital transitions, whether it be they are in the middle of a capital raise and need help with their storytelling or how they're approaching their capital raise. A lot of times founders can get stuck in that middle point of a, of a raise, or they're doing a major business pivot. That's a lot of the times where I'm coming in and helping them. Serial entrepreneur, both many businesses independently of my family and with my family, as you can see on here. And bring my background from entrepreneurship, real estate, and capital strategy.

Wonderful. Thank you. Well, and quickly, I'm Katie. So I'm an advisor here at the Founder's Office, and my background is really organizational design. And super simply put, I think what I love to do is just help people work a little bit better together so that way they can achieve better results. And so it's truly a privilege to help founders, especially as they're working to maybe exit through their business help really instill the structures necessary to keep what's been working well over time continue working when the founder leaves. So our Lunch and Learn series is designed to bring founders practical conversations around challenges that matter most to founders. As Candice said, each of us have experience being a founder, and so we're not looking from the perspective of outside in, really inside out. And these are not presentations, but rather working conversations intended to help founders like yourself build stronger companies, make better decisions, and realize that you as a founder don't have to solve every problem alone. We encourage you to participate throughout today's discussion. So please feel welcome to drop your questions in the chat as they come up. We will answer as many as we can live, but if we don't get to your question, we'll make sure that it informs future sessions. Alrighty, ladies. So today we are here to talk about the concept that sits at like the very core of everything we do at the Founder's Office. So I'm super excited to discuss this today, because I don't think it's something that you all have talked about on Lunch and Learn thus far, which is the founder's isolation paradox, right?

Trickle it in. And I think we need to say we're missing a face. Today. You all will appreciate Katie's most beautiful introduction. We usually get some, uh, version of it that's missing 90% every week, um, from Dad. My— our Dad, he's, uh, he's off, um, being the ultimate founder, skiing in Chile, finding snow. So thanks, Katie, for doing such a beautiful like lead into today's discussion and to give him shout out. Founder's Isolation Paradox is a thing he, Tom Powell, if you've never joined before, really identified and really started defining and giving a name to something all of us founders at various points feel, experience, go through. And having a name to something that feels really lonely is kind of the first step in not feeling alone, right?

You're exactly right, Kian. Well, and what a great segue, because what we're going to do for folks— just really believe in the, in the power of a shared definition. And so Candice, what you're describing is really the culmination of decades of experience, lived experience, where Tom then said, I know I'm not alone in experiencing this, but boy, is this a lonely experience. And so in service to him while he is off skiing, I will read for us the definition from his kind of source documentation of the founder's isolation paradox, and then I've got a couple of questions for, for us to get started. Okay. So the founder's isolation paradox describes the experience of building a successful company while simultaneously feeling increasingly alone. As organizations grow, founders often carry decisions, responsibility, and pressure that few others will fully understand. Although you're, you may be surrounded by employees, customers, advisors, investors, spouses, friends, people who are really supportive to you, Many founders may feel that they actually have no safe place to process the uncertainty, anxiety, and overwhelm that comes with being a founder. So Candice, as you just said, recognizing and naming this experience is really the first most meaningful step toward overcoming it. And today we're gonna really dig into how does a founder know that they're in it? And what does a founder do once they are? So before we kind of go into the practicalities of this, Knowing each of us have kind of a different discipline, right? Or lens through which we view our work. I'm curious how you would define or layer on your perspective to that definition of the founder's isolation paradox.

Yeah, I think so. Jackie and I have had the privilege, you know, every week we talk to a few founders. Who maybe are coming to ask us a question or, um, you know, go through their pitch wondering why they're stalling. And we see it time and time again. A lot of times things are going pretty well actually, um, on the, on the outset, right? From, from somebody looking at them, they're seeing, wow, their business is really blowing up. They're doing really great, not blowing up in a bad way, blowing up in a good way. Maybe it is blowing up in a bad way. They're doing great. It seems like everything's just kind of going their way. They've got all this team. They get to go do cool things. And what people aren't seeing, and maybe what the founder isn't comfortable sharing to the out— to outwardly, like, to the group in these networking events, in these business, you know, puffing things, they're not able to say, I am barely holding on, I'm barely holding it together. Um, yes, the same problems that I was having in the beginning when I was like putting this together aren't there anymore, but now these problems are kind of bigger and scarier. I'm in the middle of a capital raise that has stalled, and I have, you people depending on me and waiting for me to get this done. Somebody needs something and the only place I can find it is, is me. The only person, the only way it's going to be uncovered is if I spend the time, and I just don't have the time to do that. And I'm getting expected to sign things that I don't understand and commit to things that I'm not sure I can commit to yet. And all of it looks amazing, and I'm not sleeping. I'm stressed and nobody is— I'm alone in this even though I've got a big team now. I've got 30, 40 people now working for me. Maybe I have 10 people. Who knows? But I'm the one feeling like I'm doing all the things. So I think that's kind of what we see on the regular and they're so used to putting out like, "This is going so well." And it's like, Yeah, we're here to help you where it's not, or we're here to prep you for the areas that maybe could potentially turn into a problem. So I think some ways it's maybe they don't see it in themselves. Somebody else identifies it. Their spouse recognizes, like, you come home and you are edgy and cranky. Maybe it's a fellow founder that's like, I know what's going on here. And I'm, you know, how can I help? How can I impact something that maybe you've been carrying the weight of? That was my very long-winded, not eloquent, non-PhD definition.

How was that? No, it was wonderful, Kian, and something that I think is illuminating both just to reinforce what you said, but also in the experience that, that we've felt and then empathized with, with our clients is really this happens regardless of circumstance. It happens even when things are going really well. The, the loneliness actually compounds with the more success, right? Um, and, and that level of maybe perhaps I can't even complain or offload some of these feelings because I should be grateful that things are going so well. Jackie, in your experience, you know, from, from your vantage point, how would you layer onto the definition of the founder's isolation paradox? How do you see it present in real-world scenarios?

This component of being surrounded by professionals as you build your organization, and we highly, we, we are, we recommend that. I'm not saying don't, but it's very common if you're a founder, whether you're early stage or even late stage, you've done this several times. There will be varying degrees of how big the team around you is. Some of that team is internal, and you may feel responsible for them. Some of the team is external, and you may have expectations if they're serving as contractors or vendors or mentors or advisors or people on your board or your accountants, your lawyers, your, you know, other professional advisors. And As the company grows, so too does that network of people within your organization and without expand. And that can be great for several reasons. You know, the more the merrier, many, several different minds. You get additional perspectives, you get diversity in thought and product. But what can happen, this paradox is that you're surrounded by people, but they may not be communicating. Not with you and not with each other. As professional adults, we count on other professional adults to do their jobs and do it well. And sometimes that inadvertently severs a line of the communication that should otherwise be open. And what happens then is small mistakes inadvertently get made, and they, they can compound over time, and it can be a lot harder to play catch-up once you do start having your professionals, you know, speak, there might be some reconciliation on different things, especially when you asked, you know, for my lens, the, the legal side, you know, documents, making sure your documents match what you're actually doing. If you want to be very specific, you know, if your documents say you're going to tax an entity this way, but the tax team opted to tax the entity a different way, that's one very specific example where you may have some significant catch-up to do and costly in terms of time, resource, and emotional stress. So I think the earlier you can get your teams talking or your people, your network talking, the earlier you can help resolve this isolation paradox as well.

The thing too, just to echo you on that, Jackie, is The teams have some level of ownership in it, right? But if they make a mistake, the thing that's at risk for them is their job. The thing that's at risk for you as the founder when somebody you're depending on makes a mistake is your personal assets, the wealth you've built, the business you've built. So many things can go wrong, and that adds to that isolation. You're depending on these people and you're putting a lot of trust. You're putting your personal stake in there and you're trusting them to take great care of you. You get a letter from the IRS because something wasn't done right that you paid somebody to do. And at the end of the day, the, the ownership of that is on you and your professionals that you've surrounded yourself with, they probably care and they want to take care of that, but they do not have that same level of gut-wrenching stress and angst and, oh my God, what is— what's going to happen to all of these things I've built, all of these dominoes that could fall? They don't have that same level of risk, and I think that's where that feels kind of lonely.

There's something here too that extends into culture. I would say with this founder's isolation paradox, a culture where it's okay to make mistakes and as long as you know about it, it can be fixed. That right there can knock down the, the ice cube of isolation.

Yeah. Oh, for sure. I totally agree with that.

What's interesting, it's bubbling up for me as you both make such wonderful points, is I think I know we have some CPAs who follow us. We are fellow CPAs, right? Certified Exit Planning Advisors. And it's, it's really just something that, that we use to create shared language with other advisors helping the very founders that we seek to serve. One of the earliest nodes of advice a founder will get is to, to rely on other people to do the work, right? To build up the capacity of others. And so we see it in which it's okay, well, maybe I'm not actually carrying all the tasks, and we mark that as successful because it's, well, I've delegated, I've, I've won the delegation gold star, right? But the emotional burden of, well, are they doing the right things? Because as you say, Kan, like, I have more at stake here than the folks who are you know, willing and able and very capable to do the very thing that they're doing, but do they know everything that's going on? And so that, that cognitive burden of a founder is not immediately ameliorated by delegation itself. But I often think that we kind of stop ourselves as saying, well, I've, I'm successful because I've hired a team. And that's not always the case. You can have a wonderful team and that isolation feeling can actually compound because you now no longer feel like you're in the know. That lack of control that you once had, which is a good thing, is now feeling a little bit more risky. So when you're thinking about— I'm curious, and I actually don't know the answer to this, so fun news for me too— what is the first sign that a founder is experiencing this from, from your, your respective vantage points? What kind of rings the oop, this is the isolation paradox alarm bell in your mind?

You want me to take that one, or do you want to go first, Candace?

You go first. I'm trying to think because I think it's— it may be different, but you, you go first. I'm curious what you have to— which your trigger is.

The, the look on someone's face, the, um, the body language that conveys what they're feeling. The feeling is like overwhelmed and alone, and I think body language conveys that well. If you're having a conversation about your trust, you know, and there's this kind of like deer in the headlights— you ask them, have you thought of that? And the, the body language shifts, and it's like, yeah, I've thought about it, but, you know, the but. I think there's a little bit of, um, unnecessary, but it's still there, like shame or guilt, like I've done something wrong if I don't have all my ducks in a row. And it's just not reality that a founder who's doing 9,000 things a day, getting a business up and running or running it successfully, growing it, scaling it, ducks don't just line up. It takes a tremendous amount of work and they're more like cats where you're gonna have, you know, some stragglers. And so I think people tend to hide the imperfections because they feel like, uh-oh, I'm doing something wrong., and you can read that in body language. Those are the big telltale signs for me, especially like within legal or like risk identification conversations. And it may be the same for you, Candace, or maybe slightly different.

No, I think you're, I think you're like on it. The reality is one, mistakes are going to happen. It doesn't matter how big your organization is, how professional your team is. How much everybody even cares. Mistakes happen. Big mistakes happen. Big oopsies happen. It does. We are, we are all human beings, and that is just the reality. How we approach those mistakes is a different story. But, you know, I think you have to be okay with that as a founder, right? You have to get on board with that. Two, Founder's Isolation Paradox is not a single experience. It's not the chickenpox. You don't get it once and you're immune. You get it and you grow and you learn and you build new muscles, and then you go tackle the next thing and you have new muscles to go in and tackle that thing. So the things that broke you down the first time won't break you down this time, but there will be other things. I remember selling my first business and my first, like, bigger business. I had employees, I had a lease, I had The things that come with selling a business. And I think your first business sale, you get the offer accepted and you think, done, I'm all good, baby. Selling a business is difficult. There's so much that goes into it and there's a lot of things that can blow it up. And I remember a handful of things that nearly blew up my sale, things I didn't know even to look out for. And they really tore me apart. They really did.

They're—

and they were to me at the time huge things, little mistakes that had been made. So I had to deal with them, but they were eating me up inside. It was me showing up and having to deal with each one of these things, and I thought the people that I had surrounded myself with were going to deal with those things. Couple years later, several businesses in now, I didn't make the same mistakes, but other little things popped up and I just was like, okay, I know how to deal with this, right? But then a bigger, scarier problem came up that I really had a hard time navigating. And I remember being back in it, deep in it. Stressing, not being able to sleep again. And I remember my dad said to me, most like, there's also gratitude in this because most people will never have this size of a problem. And isn't that kind of exciting that you get to, you get to experience this size of a thing because you took that big of a swing? At the time, I don't think I appreciated it. But I noticed the same patterns in myself, and that was not sleeping well, not taking care of my human self. Like, I kind of let my human self go each of those times. But the things that got me down the first time were not the things that got me down the second time, and they won't be the same things that take me down again, down that rabbit hole of isolation paradox. It'll be something completely different. But every time I go through it, I'm building new muscles. So I feel like in a way, the first triggering sign is just like when you're going to the gym and working. It's the signs of fatigue. It's the signs of working a muscle that you've never had to work before. And it's hard.

You know, it's so funny. You share this. It's not funny, haha. Your experience can, because I know the pain and But, but, you know, we, we often kind of think about like, oh, I want my business to grow and the growth comes with more complexity. And so it's, it's that double side of the coin that you're speaking to. And, and what's interesting to me is that there's such a universal experience in this, which is one of our founders. I'm going to kind of draw thread a loose needle between what you both said. Because one of our founders recently told us, "Ugh, I'm finally sleeping again." Yet he had not told us, the very group that talks about this problem often, that he was experiencing that. And so Jackie, to your point about there's a sense of like, I have to keep my composure because if I'm dysregulated, the team is dysregulated. So I need to be— my spouse is dysregulated, right? Like, I need to be composed and, and just keep chugging along and maybe not share as much of, of the pain that's going. And that just compounds the isolation. And so what's funny is that you're saying, Can, okay, well, yeah, I couldn't sleep, couldn't sleep. We know that to be true with all the founders that we work with is one of the metrics we count ourselves successful is that that you're sleeping well. And, and I think that there's maybe a misconception of, especially in some of, some of the very well-intended guidance of like, okay, let's go take a vacation, go take a vacation. If you're on that vacation as a founder and you're unable to actually have peace and have joy during that, that's not a vacation. And so you're still in the thick of the founder's isolation paradox. But often we are looking as team members supporting founders or people around the founder as external signals for the founder is taking time for themselves, taking care of themselves. But it's such an internal experience. It's really hard to, without naming and claiming it, to understand the, the difficulties that a founder may go through in those ebbs and flows of life. So let's talk now that we've kind of defined the feelings, and I would welcome folks if you've either felt this previously, felt it now, um, you know, we're, we're here to, to really help create and name this, this space for founders who are in the isolation paradox, or if you've overcome it and you had something that really worked for you. So now that we know the feeling, and all of us probably have like a little activation of, oof, I remember that feeling and that really sucked, or I'm feeling it now, thanks for sharing and compounding my feelings now. But let's go into kind of how this impacts the business, right? Because this isn't just an interpersonal psychological struggle. This has compounding effects if left unaddressed or if really bubbled up at the wrong time. And so, How does the isolation paradox impact legal, capital, operations, organizational health? Like, let's talk now business up to the founder a little bit. Can, let's start with you. Where, where do you see on kind of the, the capital size this really becoming a problem?

I think, you know, it kind of goes back to just general health and wellness and mental health. You can't be anything for anybody else when you aren't able to perform for yourself, right? When you aren't taking care of yourself. And so not shitting on anybody, not being like, oh, you have to do it all. There's natural ebbs and flows to this, but definitely taking some time to be there for yourself is critical. It shows up in the capital raise process. I think it really shows up in how you can present. I can see when, like Jackie said, we both can see, especially on the funding side, when somebody is presenting to us and maybe they're not sharing the whole story. And I get it, you don't want to share the ugly part, that's okay. But at the same time, I'll be honest, I'm more likely to bet on a founder who has proven they, they are resilient, has proven that they don't have the answer necessarily all the time, but they're going to go get it, has proven that when shit hits the fan and when problems happen, they have the tools and the, the ability, the resiliency built up that they're able to go get it. And so I think where it shows up in the capital raise is this need to do kind of the imposter piece, which a lot of us can see through. A lot of founders can, and a lot of founder investors know it's not the rosy picture you're presenting. Okay, we know that. We just want to know what the ugly monster is, or at least have an idea so that we know what we're betting on. And if we don't know, and if it's not named, we're not likely to invest. So I would look at how you're presenting. I wouldn't necessarily air your dirty laundry,. But be prepared to answer those questions. Don't, don't lie. And be prepared to maybe accept some feedback because coachability is one of those things. And you don't know if the people who have, who are potentially looking to invest in you, especially if they're founder investors, they've probably ridden this ride before, so they may actually have some resources that can be of assistance.

That's so helpful, Kan. I hope in our notes we can like summarize some of those key points because they're really actionable. And something that raises for me is you just said it about a piece of real estate where you were like, oof, they didn't disclose what's clearly some very very obvious issues when I walk into this property. And so it just, it feels like analogous to the founder's experience. It's like, if your body language is showing me that you are overwhelmed and on the verge of tears, but you're telling me that things are going really well, right? Yeah. What aren't you telling me? That's the problem.

I think that's a great analogy. And I, of course, being real estate background, I could relate almost anything back to real estate. And you're totally right. Like, people who buy real estate can see through a lipstick on a pig remodel. I'm going to sit here and go, yikes, there was clearly something done here. There was clearly a water damage situation. Did they fully like remediate this? Is this all the way cured? You know, yeah, the property we're talking about was in bad shape and what they disclosed to me was not great. And I'm like, that means there's worse. But it took prying, it took me saying, hey, I've noticed there's a line down here, you got some flooding issues. And they didn't disclose that to me at first. And that makes me question, what have you not told me? So great, great analogy there, Kate.

Jackie, what are your thoughts on this?

I love that Candace touched on the mental health aspect and just the security or confidence that's portrayed. Um, I'm gonna go way on the logistical operation side, and especially because we have SEPAs in our audience, I'm going to take this down the SEPA pathway. But I think the founder's isolation paradox unresolved actually will hit The balance sheet and valuation, um, the, the value of a company, uh, you know, we work across several different dimensions. One of them being like a data room. If you have professionals all around you that aren't talking, chances are your data room has room for improvement, cleanup, consistency, um, accuracy, one source of truth, for example. It may be the case that you've just had a great operations person who has gathered and organized and, you know, Katie Powell Hennitzed the hell out of that file and it's tight and clean, but that chance is low. I also think, you know, looking at like key person risk, if you've got a founder that feels isolated and is, not delegating and trusting and giving employees a good feedback loop where they feel safe to bring mistakes forward, what can happen is the founder has outsized risk and carries that alone as the key person. So I think there is a right way to balance delegation and responsibility and resolve that so that you don't end up with one siloed person with all the responsibility coming in where a buyer's like, I, You don't, you don't have seasoned management. You don't have a spread here. I can't, I can't pay a higher multiple for this business.

Everything's here. What am I getting?

Absolutely. What you're speaking to, Jackie, too, just when I think about it from my lens is the same things that are for de-risking are the same things that accelerate positive culture, which really means positive work outcomes, right? Sometimes we disconnect that. Which then increases the multiple, the value of the business. And so instead of thinking, like, I think a big paradigm shift for folks can be, don't think of these as nice-to-haves, think of these as must-haves. Think of, think of that organizational through line as the necessary component to help you disentangle your own livelihood and well-being from this entity that you've created, help you move from a doer, which every founder initially was the doer, right, into the enabler, which is I'm enabling everybody who I'm trusting to do the thing that I envisioned on my behalf in a more skilled way because they have specialized expertise. And so that transition requires clarity, documentation, structure, process The things that most founders, at least who I've worked with, are like two big thumbs down, that is boring. But it's a really necessary component to, again, if we just look at the money side, which founders are money motivated, it's the thing that's required to get you that exponential multiple, that exponential peace and well-being. I mean, it's just, it's rising tide that lifts all boats, right? And it really starts with getting clear on what's not known, what is known and how to enable everybody to do that better.

I think even more than being money motivated, I think founders are freedom motivated.

Mm. Tell me more.

Dad's living in Chile right now. You know, he's doing what he wants to be doing right now at the level he wants to be doing it, which, yes, that all takes money. But the reality is, is it doesn't feel good for a founder. The goal, I don't think it— I don't think every founder wakes up and goes, I can't wait to work 100 hours this week and think of all that. No, like, they— I think the end goal for most founders is the freedom. The money is a part of, a big part of that freedom, but the freedom, um, and I think that's a big component to the isolation paradox is when you're not free mentally from all of the things going on, you're not free and your business isn't worth as much because like Jackie said, when it's all here, when you're doing it all, when you're the person holding all of that information, all the IP lives here, but it's not actually documented. Not as valuable.

Mm-hmm.

Not free.

So true. So true. Yeah. Again, it's like you can go on a vacation, but are you really on it?

If you're not free, you can have the biggest boat, but if you don't get to be on the boat, what's the point? What's, what's fun about that?

Exactly. So we have just 5 minutes left. Um, I'm curious what advice you would give a founder. We've talked about this like big concept and it, the way it's felt and appears have similarities, but it's going to be unique to the individual in the thick of it. So practicing this, seeing founders through it, helping founders out of it, what in your experience would you use to tell a founder, this is your first practical step you can take today to either address and/or prevent the founder's isolation paradox for yourself?

I think you need to surround, you need a person or a group of people who can challenge you a little bit, who are working not to put more on you but to take less off your plate, figure out how do we get, how do we shift this, um, that takes a lot to get surrounded with, um, those people, right? You got— it's going to be trial and error. Um, we serve as those people for a few founders, and, you know, a lot of times we are just kind of helping unpack little pieces and move them over here and, and minimize some of the loud sounds of the risk that's there. Zev just put in the chat meditation and so I'm going to let Jackie take that one. I am a one, I want to so bad and I do work really hard at it. I hit the deck which I lay on the floor, I lay on the floor several times a day. Take a few minutes. I'm a big believer in manifestation and taking just even quiet moments of gratitude. Jackie, I know, has a— can comment so much more on meditation.

I have spent years building my toolkit, and what I like to say is I am a non-monogamist when it comes to modalities. Meaning any self-care tool I am down to explore. I have probably tried it from the less taboo to the very taboo, the more common and mainstream to the really out, out there woo-woo stuff. I'm a big proponent of whatever it is, find your tool or tools. The, the answer to this question I would suggest, I would invite you to ask yourself two questions as a founder. One, am I really coachable? Am I? Be honest with yourself. It's okay if the answer is no, but maybe you can shift it toward not yet, but I could be. If you are coachable, There are so many resources to help you resolve this paradox. If you are not coachable, not saying it's gonna happen, but you risk ending up in that isolation paradox longer than you need to, far longer than you need to. The second question I would ask or invite you to ask yourself is, have I created a culture where it's safe and to highlight error? Because if you have well-done, exceptional work, you can, you can really trust your people and offload more to them and delegate properly and ask for communication among your stakeholders and among your partners. If the answer to that question is honestly yes, yes, I've created a safe environment, errors are fine, they happen, mistakes happen. I have a mentality of we can, we can fix it as long as we know it's there. Um, those are the two places I would really start is just like an honest, loving self-assessment without judgment. Am I coachable? Have I created a culture where it's safe to bring forward mistakes and errors?

Jackie, I love that so much. One of the things that I tend to say with clients too is like, I need to ensure I am a safe place for bad news to land. Which means I need to be regulated so that way I don't have a reaction. It's just data. It's just data. Because the second I have a reaction, it, it does teach your team to go, oh, I'm, I'm gonna hold on this just a little longer. And it's one of those things that points right back to the crux of this, which is your regulation, right? That's what we're talking about. And, and that's there's systems to do that. We're not— it doesn't all have to be— I think sometimes when we think about, okay, Zev, someone told you daily meditation practice, I would be a big proponent of that. You know, Kay and I love the quiet space. Jackie, I love your non-monogamous approach to these tools. That feeling—

that, because I think I'm the same.

Well, I feel that there's— it's one more thing to say, hey founder, you need to go do this. And what I would share is find the community in which you can do that. So, Ken, you said, I think, something so important, which is find someone who is the safe place to land this news, to say, I'm feeling really alone, I'm feeling really misunderstood, I'm feeling really overwhelmed, no one understands or gives me the time of day because things are going really well, but I'm scared of everything I don't know. Like, someone to just word vomit your feelings. And it should be someone who's capable to help you through it. But I think the first step is just using the space to name, wow, I've really been feeling this way for a long time.

And just knowing you're not the only one going through it, it's enough to feel a little bit better. It doesn't solve it, but just knowing, okay, not the only one.

Exactly. Zev, I would invite you just for a humorous read, um, Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics may give you a good laugh and some good daily meditation tips. I really enjoyed it as somebody who, um, the traditional meditation style can feel, feel put to the wayside for more revenue-driving activities. So, um, if you want a good read, I would recommend that.

I'm in the same boat, Zeb, although the wonderful Jackie has been, has been so sweet with, with resources for me to, to work on that. Sometimes the best I can pull off is a 2-minute lay on the floor.

I love it.

Just try to ground myself.

Jackie, I'm curious if BMW days, from Zev count as a personal form of meditation? I would say so.

100%. I think there's a book actually, it's called Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

Okay, you've got some reading to do from today.

No, you know what, anything that allows you honestly to quiet your mind a little bit and find like a flow state or find some joy, that counts. That kills.

Honestly, I love doing, um, like, I like a 3D puzzle, like those complex 3D puzzles. They feel like a massage for my brain because I can just like— I have to kind of focus on it. I don't get to do them a lot, um, but when I do, I'm like, oh, that felt really good to like— it's something I can solve in a few minutes and it shut the loud noises down for just a minute and gave myself a little break. So I love this idea of finding what that is that shuts it off just even for a minute and give yourself that gift of space.

Very well said. Well, that was the founder's isolation paradox. Ladies, any final words as we're just a couple of minutes over our intended time? But I've really loved shocked where this has gone.

I just saw a last-minute question popped in the chat from Patrick. As a founder, I want to know what are the key strategies to lock in an investor VC for pre-seed with the prototypes ready. Love the thought. We're going to grab that. We can do another episode on that. Thanks for posing that, Patrick. Would love to get you some in-depth responses on strategies. Thank you for that. Thanks for leading us today, Katie. Thank you everyone for joining. Uh, we'll look forward to next week, same place, same time.

Oh yeah, Angela, to do this. This is how you can find us. There it is.

Um, thank you, Angela.

These are the links to, to find us. And, um, yeah, dad usually closes us out. What do we do?

Promotes us. We're gonna have to do shameless self-promotion. We have a podcast, WTF Women Talk Finance, uh, The Powell Perspective. You can find it on YouTube, Spotify. Yes, podcast. There it is.

We need our dance mom back on here. I know, Katie, you did a beautiful job. You did a really nice, wonderful intro, especially for those who've maybe never joined us before. So we really appreciate you.

Well, thank you. It's actually all Kelly, who you don't get to see her beautiful face. There are A players that you don't get to see every week here. So thank you, Kel. And thank you, ladies, for such a fun conversation.

And Angela, always driving us.

Always Angela.

Always Angela. Angela runs the show. Thank you, Angela. And thank you, ladies, for a great conversation. Agreed.

See you next week. Bye.