073. Building An Infrastructure for Growth with Harmony Anderson

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Welcome back to another episode of Demand Gen Studio. My name is Miranda Jenkins and I'm joined today as always by Neilio Garcia. And today we have another guest episode for you. So we are also joined by today by Hermanny Anderson who is the VP of growth and marketing for Superhuman. Great to have you Hermani. Thanks so much for joining us.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to chat with you both today.

Yes. Awesome. Well, to kick things off we'd love if you could just share a little bit more about yourself, who you are, what you do and then some insights into your background and how career journey, how you became a marketer.

Yeah, so as you mentioned, I lead growth and marketing at Superhuman. We're an AI native email productivity app. We were just acquired by Grammarly actually last week and so we're starting to make that transition into their broader org Grammarly, Coda and Superhuman which is really exciting and kind of a new stage in our growth. So lots to come from there. I have spent a majority of my career doing demand generation and revenue marketing at some companies, engine outreach. I spent and a half years running global demand and operations there and then at a company called Thousand Eyes as well and a couple, there are a couple more trickled in but I'm really passionate about demand generation, revenue marketing and just growth like growth for startups, how you get from 20 million to 200 million and really scaling, scaling those series B to series C companies all the way up. So it's a passion of mine. I love what I do and I love talking about it. So I'm just excited to be here with you both today.

Awesome.

What is your current role with Superhuman? What does that look like? Talk us, you know a little bit about your day to day role there.

Yeah, so actually this is, I oversee all of marketing so traditional marketing, product marketing, customer community, demand, Gen, rev ops. We now have the sales development org under marketing and then I also oversee growth product. So which is a new thing to me actually when I was interviewing I was like I've never overseen growth before. They're like it's fine, you'll do great. And honestly it's been really fun to learn something new. But the growth org basically manages onboarding, activation, web experience, retention. So all of the the plays to get users sticky and coming back for more we mention the product. So it's a really end to end growth and marketing function. We own a large majority of all revenue and pipegen for the organization and so it's, you know, we're constantly Testing, optimizing, trying to find new growth loops, testing new programs, new plays, and just trying to grow as fast as possible.

Awesome.

Yeah. Cool.

So it sounds like there's a lot of different, you know, different departments of the company that you're working with. And I know one of the things we talked about when preparing for this episode was kind of the influence that specifically the operations department can have on demand generation.

Yeah.

What I'd love to hear what role you've seen operations play in, like, the most successful demand generation programs. Like, kind of the best between operations and marketing.

Yeah. I am really passionate about this because I truly believe that operations can make or break marketing, period. And infrastructure. And it really comes down to, like, you can have the best creative, you can have the best plays, the best programs, the best ICP definition, but if your infrastructure is not built to handle and manage leads, everything breaks down. And, and so I really believe that most companies invest in this too late. You come like, I, I usually start right at this, like series B. Typically people will hit 20 million of revenue and beyond. And usually in that zero to 20 million, it's just like we're going to band aid it together and even like use spreadsheets if we have to track leads. But the reality is if you don't start building that early, it's really hard to fix later on. You're almost like rebuilding your infrastructure and rebuilding your ops later. And it's the more inbound or the more plays you're running, the more you're spending, the harder that becomes, the more sellers you have. So I, I just am so passionate about making sure that there is infrastructure for teams to scale. And if not, it's just, it can derail everything because then you just, you lose visibility, you lose tracking, you lose leads, and then your money just. I always say, like, I've said this a couple times and just hate it, but it's like, basically you're burning money if you don't have good infrastructure and no one wants to burn money, especially if you're at a startup.

Yeah, there. There are two analogies that. First of all, you know, thank you for joining the. The episode harmony. I, I was really excited when, you know, we got to speak because I said, you know, this is going to be super helpful for anyone listening to the show. But I, I really love what you're saying because there's a couple of analogies that come to my mind. One is like, that, you know, like when you have these lemmings, you know, like, following each other and falling To a cliff that's kind of like, well, you're pouring whatever effort you have on the top end and they're just falling to a cliff because you don't have a path for them. Or, or the other one is, that probably is more appropriate is like if you, if you pour a source of water through terrain where you don't have a path for it, it will find a way. Which is what you're describing, right. Is like from 0 to 20 maybe we will people patch it up, they will have a spreadsheet, they will make it work. But then you years go on and look at the path that the water following is like this is not efficient. This is crazy. If we have defined the path from the beginning, we have put together something great. So I think that's, that's a challenge for sure.

Yeah. And if you think about like you know, part of our role as marketers and demand gen leaders is you have to optimize what you're doing. Like it has to be efficient. Efficient. You have to drive ROI in some capacity. You can't do that unless you have the basics of infrastructure. You can track your leads, you know the source of truth, they're going to someone. You can track your acquisition cost and so much of that, the foundations of that is your CRM or your marketing automation platform. And, and that's infrastructure. Like they have to communicate, you have to know where they're going. There has to be campaigns like they're be context and without it you can't run and optimize your programs.

So there, there's, there's something that catch my eye attention now that you mentioned they have this role that is you know, tapping into the customer success or customer onboarding part of it which is really interesting and haven't heard of it before. Yeah. If you, I'm sure it had happened through your career and for people listening. Yeah, it will be great if you can start on a company where everybody buys in the idea that we need to have the infrastructure from the beginning to have a great operations process and therefore put their demand gen top of it. But for most people probably they will come onto a place where all those patches are already there and you are hired to probably, you know, take this to the next level. That will be your recommendation. What would you typically do or would recommend for people to do? How do they go along that path and how do you identify the, the quick wins? Right. The places where you can put some effort and have a lot of results out of those changes.

Yeah. I mean if you Data. I make all my decisions based on data. And, and so, so that's part of, partially why I'm like always being like, you gotta have infrastructure because you're gonna have dirty data if you don't have it. But in terms of like where we put time and effort, dollars, program dollars, against optimizing like a journey, which I think is what you're asking is, is based on like where is the biggest, where is the biggest, like the, the gold mine within your funnel. Whether or not that's okay. I have existing customers, they're using the product, we have good activation, but we haven't done anything to get them to expand. And those are your warmest people, right? They're already using the product. Now we want, one of the goals, at least for Superhuman, is to drive more managed teams, right? Managed deals. And we have this huge database of users, individual users, teams, users, all self serve. That is your gold mine right there. Do as much as you possibly can to run plays against them, to convert them to managed. And we figured all of that out just through like looking at end to end, looking at all the data that's powering our growth. And that's where it started. And that's where was hanging fruit.

Yeah, that, that begs the question of, do you consider that this particular thing that you are taking, which is having a say on the customer success, customer board on taking advantage of the data and the, the potential revenue that has not been exploited in the company from current customers that can become managers you described, do you think that's something there's particular to two per human, or do you see that as a trend right now where maybe, you know, efforts on the marketing and even the sales side are, if not being questioned, at least saying, well, maybe we are doing a lot here already. There's a lot of marketing and sales alignment already across, especially probably across SaaS. But what, what's happening on the customer success side and are we exploring opportunities there? Do you think that's the trend across the industry or particular to your company?

I don't, I think it, I don't know yet if it's a trend, but it needs to be. And I, every company I've worked at up until Superhuman, everyone says they're customer centric and customer oriented. I have not worked at a single company that is actually customer centric until I got to Superhuman. And I remember even interviewing, I was like, you say you have a value, right? That's about customers and delivering value to them. Like what does that actually mean? And they gave me a really great answer about how they listen and they actually build. They listen to customer feedback. They build for the customer. The customers are who are driving growth for the organization. One of their biggest goals was product innovation. That is in response to what customers are requesting. And I was like, okay, yeah, everyone says loud, like, are they actually doing it as Superhuman is? But our 80% of our growth, all of our 80% of our revenue, our growth, our pipeline is coming from customer referral and then product innovation, basically through customer referral. So we're releasing new products, they're using it more, they're saying, oh my gosh, I love this. And then they're inviting their colleagues. And so I truly believe customers should be at the foundation and at the baseline of like, where you start building your business. Every other organization I've worked at, even if they have a really great product, they're so laser focused on just retention or new business, which I get right. Especially if you're a land and expand model. Like you land them and hopefully you're expanding. And hopefully it's organic, but yeah, it's new, New, new, new, new. But new is really, really hard. It's expensive. You're usually, especially startups, you're building categories. It's just like, it takes so much longer. And so I'm a really firm believer and a lot of the marketers I've talked to recently and even sales leaders who I know really well from past lives are all like, we're missing something. It's not sustainable to just be looking at new. Look at your existing customer base, build for them, get them to expand, expand your product capabilities before you just start up the mountain of driving new business. So I think it's happening.

Yeah, that's awesome to hear. Yeah, I feel like that's something we. That comes up in, you know, several of our episodes about actually making informed decisions based on the customer data. Like your. The answers from your actual real customers that. Yeah, you have. It's difficult to collect that and, you know, get the answers from them. What does that look like for you guys at Superhuman? What's the, like, best format to get the answers directly from your customers?

Yeah, so this, this is somewhat unique to Superhuman, but I actually talked about it on another podcast a couple months ago. We, when I first started, we launched a really big campaign called the New Year New Inbox. The purpose was to capitalize on everyone coming back from the holidays. They have a really messy email. There's thousands of them to catch up on, but they also have New Year's resolutions And so the goal was saying like we want to drive new seats, we want to get people excited about their new year and doing it through this like our productivity like suite, right through email, through AI native emails. They don't have to spend all this time and it's like, oh my gosh, more productive with this product. What we did was we launched that campaign right when we came back in January and we planned a here's how you like a virtual event on here's how you can be more productive with Superhuman. And so the whole idea was like, let's show them how we can transform their workflows with, with AI native email. And so we emailed our current customer database as well as we did some of course like demand gen to drive registrations. And we had over 4,000 registrants for this virtual event and over a thousand attendees. A lot of them are users who are like I could probably be doing more with Superhuman. And so we did, we basically did demos of all of the great features, how you can actually use it, best practices. And we had so much customer feedback on this call. It was amazing feedback and love the product but wish it had this, wish it had that. And I had a spreadsheet that was just like you could scroll and scroll and scroll on feedback. And we took that, we bundled it, we're like here are the themes we're seeing. We passed on a product and it has fueled a lot of how we've prioritized our roadmap for the year. So that's like one example of a way you can do it that's just like a part of your existing marketing programs or Playbox. Um, in addition to like Pro, we also have product feedback and we're very. Every time we email, every time we do a new feature, even in product it's really easy to do hello ad and give give feedback and we track it all basically in our systems. So there's the like programmatic side, then there's just like the always on but it's such a huge part of our DNA as Superhuman.

Yeah, that's awesome.

I'm gonna take the conversation now into a different take related to customer success. But this will not be a marketing podcast episode in 2025. We don't talked about a little bit of AI so I'll do so but there's a reason for it. I've been asking people harmony around about the for the client facing functions that we the marketers generate or at least support to some extent marketing, sales and now customer success that you are Saying which one will have or is having the most impact from AI in terms of actual benefits. And it is, it's not coming just from me, but I, from what I'm hearing from people is that customer success is probably the best use case at this moment where you can get more tangible results rather than marketing and sales. I'm not saying that you, you can't, but I think the reason I believe so, and this is the question that I will have at the end of it, if you agree with me or not or you have a different take is that to be honest, the, the demand side of marketing, which is attention from humans and the demand side from sales, which is in market buyers, doesn't grow like, you know, like it's not growing threefold every year, right? Yeah, it's not exponential. But the demand for support, the demand for getting answers from customers is always, always overwhelmed by the very little supply that we have of humans willing or you know, with capacity to take you. You get in queues on phone calls, you get in queues on chat conversations, you get queues on emails with the long response time. So I think that's where the truly opportunity is because you have a system that now maybe not 100% of time, but maybe, you know, 80% of time can get you an answer and get your way right and have a delightful experience. And the other two, I feel that we're just going to run it out to the ground with more and more emails from people trying to sell stuff from more, you know, personalized marketing approaches. But what is your take? What do you think for in your experience with Superhuman is where you having the most impact right now?

Yeah, that's such a great question. And my perspective too generally on AI is consumers. Whether or not you're in business or you're just like a personal consumer demand, 100% personalized experiences. It's one to one connect with a support rep. It's one to one connect With a seller. It's I know who you are, what you like, what you buy, how old your kids are, what you eat for dinner, and I'm going to literally build a playbook for you like B2B or B2C. It's like everyone is expecting this. And, and so I think across every part of the funnel for any sort of business, everyone needs to be moving in the direction of it being 100% personalized. And AI should be able to do that for you, period. Like across the board. And to your point on customer success, like it's no different for that Too like we, again to your point, you can't scale people, you can't just be hiring hundreds of new people every single time your business adds another thousand users. And so how do you prioritize, how do you build this experience but also prioritize for your sellers or your CS reps? And some of the things we're doing like we brought on is on the sales side but we're actually looking at expanding it to cs. In particular, we brought on an AISTR via qualified and the goal is like and we've, you know, connected all of our knowledge hub, we've connected our help desk, we've connected everything to try to be able to provide a really great AI experience before they hit a seller. Because I'm not quadrupling our sales team. Same on the CS side we are, we brought on Zendesk AI because we were getting, we get thousands and thousands and thousands of support requests. It's not support like in a bad way, it's support like also feedback or hey I love this or something happening. And only, we think only 30 to 40% of those actually should have a person follow up or person manage. And so how then we can we answer questions, provide really great, valuable, delightful support, but not have it be an expensive human on the background in the back. So I think that's a big piece of it is there's, there's so much that can be done end to end depending on what the channel and method of communication is.

Yeah. Love it, love it. Now that shift me into this very popular question that I ask everyone that gets invited to the show and again is connected is you mentioned something really important now in your role and it's not that you were not being part of it, but now you are directly managing the experience and customer success. And so I'm sure already, you know, obviously the marketing programs and there's some sales alignment, sales enablement activities I'M sure as well, if any. But how is that, how do you see the, the whole attribution of efforts? Right, yeah. Is, is this a marketing effort? Is this a sales effort? Is this now are we growing pipeline, Are we growing impact and revenue? Because customer success, how, how do you handle how Harmony handled that as you went along different positions in your career and now how do you manage attribution across those three teams?

That's a really great question. And one thing I want to clarify too on customer success. So I oversee customer success in the product, so the experience and then customer enablement scaled. And then we also have a CS team that's like one to one expansion driven. So, so I'm trying to talk across both, both sides of it. But in terms of attribution, I have a love hate experience with attribution because I truly believe you need attribution to help know where there are opportunities for improvement or, you know, optimization. It's also a great way to look at budget and budget allocation. But ultimately I want to always avoid finger pointing on who's driving what. I did a really deep analysis when I was at outreach a handful of years ago where we looked at every single opportunity we've ever driven and we ran a pretty detailed analysis on source and influence and team and 98% of every single opportunity was touched by marketing and sales and then for existing customers, customer success. And so I look at it as like, it doesn't matter who's like getting, you know, attribution for what. It just matters that we are, we are one team moving the business forward. We have the same outcomes, we have the same goals, we have the same KPIs, but we play different roles in driving those outcomes. And you have to know what those roles are and be really honest and open and communicate communicative on what that is by team. So I track attribution, but it's not the end all, be all. It's more for optimizations and budget management than anything else.

Yes, I, I completely agree. I use a couple of analogies. I don't know if you, if you have one of your own. I said, for example, well, look at, you know, what you do for your physical health, right? You have a bunch of metrics, some more important than others. What makes you healthy is not one parameter. And this is just one thing that influence that. If you narrowly focus on just moving your, whatever level is that you're worried about without being holistic about it, right. You might get into, into trouble. The other, the other part that I feel we sometimes forget is how technology is like, like in a dark room you're turning little lights and now you are being able to see the path and get all excited about the touch points when in reality they were happening. Right. Maybe not as frequently as technology enables today, but that train will continue to grow because we are tracking more and more things and therefore that's not just cow session, you know, it's not cost, it's part of the process.

So yeah, I mean I, I built a slide like way back in the day to try to like make my point to a former executive team on like why they need to stop worrying about Attribution it was like here's the person and then here's like the stem of all of the things that can be happening. And there can be sales touches, marketing touches, CS touches. It could be organic, it could be customer referral, it could be anything. But like they're going to see it all eventually it's going to influence them. And, and sure I could try to put like it's like analysis paralysis. I can put percentages and data and whatever on it like fine. But the reality of it is like just don't get too caught up in it. If we're all for communicating we all have the same outcomes. It's going to happen no matter what.

Yeah. Now with that I would like to kind of like get back to our core right as marketers and going to back to brand. Do you believe that brand is making like a comeback? And I said this with I'm going to make a big caveat. I didn't ask you but my background is not marketing. I'm mechanical electrical engineer by right what got me here were the numbers. So I learned I reverse engineered marketing over the years stumbling very dumb mistakes like thinking that just looking at those sessions and those clicks was the thing. Right?

Yeah.

And it took me a ton of years to discover that kind of like this is human behavior, this is psychology. Right. These are things that are in our brains, not in Google Analytics. So I don't know, I think the shake that AI is in part doing I think is making a generation aware that this has been always been about on the marketing side on brand. But I don't know your take and if you have shift your mindset as well or has always been the same.

I have completely shifted my mindset. Okay. I like as, as a demand gen marketer by trade and what I was like born and raised in on the marketing side I just never worried about it. I was like I, I don't care about brand, I care about the numbers. And I think it was because I all I worked at companies that didn't have the biggest broadest brands. Like I could do something with like a mediocre brand but I, I've learned now that like I can move mountains with an exceptional brand. Like brand fuels demand period. And I have and I used to always be the person too where like just don't even talk to me about brands. Like I don't like just don't. I'm talking about the numbers and like the business, you know streams and like where we can scale and over the last few years and this might be because now I've been overseeing end to end marketing. So brand is technically under my, my purview now. Um but I have seen how big of an impact it can have and you don't have. If you have really great brand you can spend way less money and way less energy driving demand with great brand. So I, I've completely shifted my perspective. I also think with the we're a B to like we're a business to prosumer. Right. Like and kind of B2B but a lot of B2B brands and B2C brands are leaning really heavily into content creator advertising. Right. Influencer marketing as well. Like we are too. That is our fastest growing channel to drive demand is influencer and content creators.

Interesting.

That is a brand centric platform play.

Yeah.

Right. So like you can't be successful there if you want don't have a great product and then two don't have something for them to some brand for them to talk about. So that's a big, a big piece of. I think why I've changed my perspective so quickly as well is just because that's becoming such a massive channel for growth.

Yeah, I agree. Now I have another question related to you kind of hinted it in your shift of the role is do you feel that this particular role is kind of like getting you closer to own or I don't know if you actually own like product marketing, the development of the product from a marketing perspective, which I think is also something that more and more marketing functions, especially your level are kind of like having again a say. Right. Is that I cannot be in charge of just the promotion distribution of the product if I don't have a say on the product. Is that role that you are taking a little bit of?

Yes.

Making sure that you make a product that actually people you know, enjoy. Is that the reason?

Yeah. So I do oversee product marketing now and this is only the second like experience I have honestly in having an influence on product roadmap based on what I'm seeing in the market and through our marketing and sales efforts. So so often like one of my biggest goals is to drive teams revenue so revenue from teams who use Superhuman and and so one of the things that I do alongside my senior director of product marketing who's a machine is we're going back to, we're like we go back to our product and we say hey, this is the business objective that we own. We're the dri's of we will not hit the goal unless you deliver us this product. Or this feature on this timeline. And it's very much this constant negotiation and prioritization, you know, you know, conversation of what, like, here's what we need and you need to deliver it for us or we will not succeed. And so it's much. There's like the product pushing things to market, and then we are pulling from product, also things into market. And it's really fun. And I do believe that, like, marketers have to have that role. Yeah, marketing leaders especially, like, they have to have a role, product roadmap development. They have to obviously have a huge role in sales success. Like, I still tell people I work for sales. It's like literally my job to like, make them successful. And it can't just be this siloed marketing function or no one's going to succeed ultimately.

And I, again, I might be mistaken. You can tell otherwise. But I feel that it's also a generational shift because I believe that for a little while, especially on SaaS, the market need of the product was a given because there were so many categories that were just missing the SaaS version of it. Right. I'm going to use a very silly example, but let's say CRMs, right?

Yeah.

@ the beginning, the proposition was I just want to build a CRM on SaaS. Stopping and asking about, from a marketing perspective about the product was, was something that was slowing you down because the goal, the goal was, well, I want to be either the first or one of the first or one of the fastest and just help me get the word out there. But as we move through the. And there's a SaaS for that. There's a SaaS for that already, then you start questioning, right? I can. The technology to building a CRM nowadays, to just put an example, couldn't be more available, right? Yeah, the, the, the technical expertise of the product is not that it's not relevant, but it's. If you want to get into that market today, you will have, you will have to have a very strong understanding of the market that you're gonna target to justify it, because if not, you are competing against behemoths. So I think, I think that's a little bit of the shift. Maybe. I don't know if you have seen it that that marketing is getting either back or getting more say on product because some of the categories are getting, you know, more mature technically and therefore the engineers. Right. It's not that they are less relevant, it's just that they also need that market component that sometimes is.

Missing. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I think there's two, there's two components to that. There's one. Are you, are you trying to play in a category that has already been created and is very saturated and like displace or. Right. Evolve it or are you building your new category which is so hard. And I tell everyone I don't ever want to build a new category. We did that at outreach. It took so long and we succeeded. It was amazing. But like, and I honestly did it thousand I've done it many times. I like don't want to have to do it because it just is like it's a slog to get people to recognize you. It takes a really long time. So I would almost rather exist or play in a category that's already been created but disrupting it in some capacity or a smaller category that is on I think the most ideal. A smaller category. It's newly created. Someone already has like put the effort in but we're coming in and we now want to own it and then expand it. Right? Yes. Ride the wave. Like I think that's, that's the fastest path to a hundred million, 200 million, you know, of revenue anyways and the path to least resistance. Yeah. I also deeply believe in, in putting in the effort into identity defining your icp. Not a lot of companies do that and so they, and it's scary, especially as a startup because there's so many people you could be selling to and there's so many great use cases but you cannot build and sell to everybody. That just is not practical. It's too expensive, it's unsustainable. You need a lot of people and you're not going to do it well. Cause you're just like trying to do too many. Seen a lot of companies try to do that and so that's one of the things we're doing now with Grammarly coda and superhuman is what is our now combined icp because we've all had different ones. So who are we building an AI productivity suite for together? And it's so important to do that because if not like you're just not going to move as fast in the markets that.

Matter. I, I, I want to add something here because you already mentioned it and kind of infer it, but it will be great. Your take on this one, I, I love. You know, obviously we tell our clients all the time, right. We need to know who are you selling to, who your product is for. But I use this analogy that for a proper sentence. Right. You need the subject but you also need verb. Right. You need an action. And I think sometimes as demand gen practitioners in general we miss the action. You mentioned it when you were talking about that promotion that you did at the beginning of the year of the. The person that has a ton of emails. Because I can imagine as you said that you are being a prosumer kind of company. Yes. In theory anyone with an email account could be your potential.

Buyer. Yeah.

Yep. So that's kind of like the idea, you know, if you were to define that is going to be quite broad. But what really matters is the habits of those producers. Right. And I'm in that category. Right. The person that is you know, looking always for the way to manage their inbox, going to zero inbox in some way. Right. Having a ton of delegation to happen. Those are the users. So there are, there are things that we do just like users of Grammarly that give away if you are in market. So I think sometimes in that ICP definition we miss. Define the moments. Right. The actions that that user will take that will either make them go away, go out and ask for opinions or look around for solutions. I don't know how, how do you, how do you see.

That? Oh my gosh. I mean you're so right. You said, you said like technically anyone with email could use superhuman. That is. I've had this conversation with so many people and I even I, I built a slide somewhat recently for a big kind of pitch presentation that was where do we start and where ultimately are we going? And the where are we going though is sub. It can mean a lot of things. Like you gotta define that. Are you, are we trying to hit everyone with email when it's definitely not now, but it is in the future. Our product isn't ready to just like it's, it's. You need, you need some hand holding to really learn it and become sticky. And so it's just not ready for everybody with email. But we started with a wissy builder executive CEOs like startup founders. That is who it was built for by our startup founder and, and we grew really fast in that segment. Early adopters, early tech adopters who like have a lot of skin in the game who, who really have a pain. And so we like owned that market for a long time. Then we moved to okay, who has the next biggest issue with email and that became senior executives or leaders end to end. Right. So like any function but within. In ultimately any size of company but like scaled startups or beyond. Then it became who also has a lot of emails that aren't leaders, and that's usually outbound professionals. It's sales, it's cs. It's like it could be. And then we looked at the functions, or not functions, industries. So, you know, consulting firms, boutique marketing agencies, like those people who again, are.

Outbound.

Yeah. And now it's starting to scale from there. And I have this slide of like, here's, here's like small little bubble, bigger, a little bit bigger. And then it's like everybody. And so you have to be really honest on where you sit on that journey. Really honest. Because then you can just, again, distractions. It's unsustainable. You can't build for everyone. And I think that's just such a critical piece of doing good marketing and doing good.

Selling. Love it. Love it. Because just by you describing it right, anyone that knows a little bit about how products like yours are built will know that the amount of resources and time that you will need to fulfill one of those, you know, like bubbles or buckets, it's massive. Right. How do you present that? How do you associate superhuman to that category for you founders and the needs that they have, they're completely different. Even when it's all about email. Right. Making it faster, productive versus someone that is doing outbound, it's a completely different play. So, yes, I, I couldn't agree more. I think, again, I don't know if that's a formal definition, but I will say that for me, that the, the closest that I've heard is the category entry point. Right. Like what the scenario that you described for that, you know, there's, when you get back from the holidays, there's gonna, you have a moment and that moment is very, you know, consistent across certain group of people. How do you get yourself in front of your potential buyer at that moment so they can start thinking about your brand? Right. I think was super, super clever. So congrats on that. But yeah, I think having that connection on the action is super, super important.

Awesome. Yeah. And there's like the, you know, it's. I think the, the last thing too is where are you at as a business? And like, where, where are you on the journey? And then it's. Where is the category at on the, like, crossing the chasm methodology? Are like, are they super early tech adopters or are you in the like, laggard category? Are you in the mainstream? Like, we're so new, no one knows what AI is like really going to be doing over the next five years. We all have.

Visions. We think, we know, we know that the ball is moving, but we don't know where's.

Going. Yeah, yeah, we don't know. So, like, that's another thing I say a lot because I've done some podcasts on how to market an AI product in a very loud AI world, and that's one of the critical pieces of it too, is, like, where does it sit? How much do people know about the AI you're building and who are you building it for? And you have to bring them along, educate them on the journey. So it's a mixture of the two, but you have to combine.

Them. Love it. Right, Harmony, this has been fantastic. I just want to close with, you know, any final recommendation thought or. Or, you know, take that you might have. And if new listeners want to reach out and connect with you, what will be the best way to get in touch with.

You? Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I mean, act fast, get your hands deep into the plays. Don't be scared, but make sure before you do it, you're really aligned with product and sales and the. The leadership team on who you're building for, I think is just so foundational and critical to everyone's success. That's my last, like, little take, but you can find me on LinkedIn. Please, please reach out to me. I love chatting with other marketers and would love to chat with you all, so thanks for having me. It's really great to.

Have. Thank you for joining. Has been fantastic. Yeah, Bye.

Bye.