The Relationship You Actually Want (Not the One You Think You “Should” Have) ft. Elizabeth Stone

All we're ever doing in relationship is having sex, communicating, or like eating food together. Like we're not, we're not doing this wide range of things, right? Like we think it's comp— it's not complicated. You're gonna pick out who you could have 1,500 Wednesday dinners with and try to do that. So once, like once we're done with realizing that that's all we're doing, now we can like design our life. And that's what I really do. So it seems like I get in the the specifics of relationship, but really it's about like, what would fill us both with joy? What would it be like for both of us to have exactly what we wanted our life to look like together and then separately? That's what I do. So what does it look like for you? What do you want it to be like? That's a real question. Like I'm asking.

Kevin's like grounded masculine safety meets a weird realm-bending permission slip.

And Britta's like a wise and witchy Mary Poppins. Yeah, it's, it's better than therapy.

This stuff is way better than therapy. So much better than therapy. Better than therapy.

We've had— we're sort of in a relational, like, conflict thing and starting to come out of it and birthing into the new things. We're sort of like in some of that and it's showing up in the podcast too. And it's like, The new thing is emerging that feels like, uh, a more, a more free, more us version of the thing. And it's like in the kind of new stages of that. So.

Oh, that's awesome. Like, I, you've given me immediate curiosity with that statement. Like, you can't say that to me and then have me be like, what do you mean relational changes?

Yeah. Yeah. It's great to be, and I love that we're like talking with you today. It's like perfect timing to like, Jam on relationship stuff and like we're going through some relationship stuff and yeah.

Yeah. Excellent. Well, um, like we can, I mean, we can just do it if you want to. I don't know any better way. Yeah.

Let's dive in.

I, I'm excited. Like this just feels fun to like meet you for the first time and in a recorded conversation.

I, I really like it. Likewise. Yeah. When you, when you said that, I, I almost said something really, uh, obscure, like, yes, I don't know who I'll be on that day, but I thought that would be just too weird.

Oh, weird as well.

Welcome. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So Michael introduced us to you and he said like something like, Elizabeth works with people in deep relationship conflict, like bad breakups and stuff. And also, um, incredibly candid about not following all of the relationship, the bad relationship advice out there.

Yeah, that's true.

I'm curious, like what, what's some of the bad, like what's the worst relationship advice out there?

Don't go to bed angry.

Agreed.

Say more.

Say more. So if we're, if it's at the point where it's bedtime and we're angry, we probably shouldn't keep talking. That's the wrong time to talk. Like it's better.

But don't I need to resolve the conflict before I go to bed?

You might find that it's resolved if you get some sleep. Like, so no, I mean, that's, that's my favorite piece of bad advice. I suppose also that just communicate, like all we need to do is communicate. Well, if I just go around communicating that you're a jerk, we're not going to get very far. Like if I just keep communicating that you're wrong, like, so what? It's not going to work. It's not going to help. Uh, It, it matters what we communicate. And sometimes there's things we shouldn't communicate. Like, it's just very unhelpful to communicate that. Like, in real low mood, there's a lot of things that don't need to be said that, that, that in a higher mood are completely like irrelevant. So, oh, a few things. Um, I think we'd probably have to dig deeper into specifics for me to be able to think of them off the cuff, but those 2, just communicate.

Those are great.

Yeah. Yeah. Don't go to bed angry.

It's wild to me how prevalent the don't go to bed angry piece of advice is. Right.

I think, yeah, like I think I had a marriage-ending fight that was because we could not go to bed and it was 4 o'clock in the morning. We just kept, you know, hounding each other.

Me too.

Yeah.

I'm just wondering like, what, what is it that makes that look like a good idea? Because I think the 3 of us are all like, yeah, that's, it looks really innocently dumb to do that now. And at some point that looked like a good idea and it's like, man, what is that about? And then also like what to do instead. It's like, okay, so not that kind of stuff. Like what, what do we do?

You know, I think wanting the idea that people have to agree with each other, like that my partner needs to agree with me as part of the reason that people will go to the mattresses like that, like just keep fighting. Like that, because it's like, well, if we just keep going with this discussion, then we'll get somewhere where we both agree. And like, research supports that 80% of problems are never solved in relationships, even in happy ones. So if the problems are never solved and we never come to an agreement, but we think that the best way to do it is to keep talking about it and trying to agree, we're going to have a bad time. Oh yeah, like that's going to create a lot of anger before bed. That then you think you need to fix so you can go to bed.

Yeah.

Cycle repeats. Right. Like nobody's like dying to be told that they're wrong right before bed. Right. Like, look how wrong you are. And like, if you just come around to my side, we could all be happy. I mean, nobody—

It would be great to receive. That would be really helpful for my nervous system before I'm trying to go into rest and digest time.

Yeah. We could just get real worked up and then try to rest, but Most people like do much better if they're in a better mood anyway. So like, there's no point. There's absolutely no value in it, but I get why, like, I, I've definitely been in arguments where I was like, yeah, I've got to just keep beating this point. You know, he'll eventually love this if I just repeat myself enough times. Yep.

I know that one.

Yeah. So what do you think is bad advice? I'm curious. Definitely agree on that one.

Bad advice. I mean, something, the first thing that comes to mind is, I don't know what the advice is, but something around the, it's similar probably to what you said about like communicating, like this, like over-processing. Like I see a lot, there's a lot of people I see that are sort of in this like over-processing thing where they've gotta like, Talk about and process. And like, it sort of like seems like maybe like a step from like not doing anything about this stuff to like starting to talk about stuff and then just like processing and processing. Like, and that, like, that's gonna be the, the solution or something like that's gonna be helpful. And it's like, there's some truth, there's something helpful in it, and there's something that's just like looping and stuff that like doesn't need to be talked about. I imagine it's connected to what you're saying of like, if it's coming from some place of trying to process so that we like get to some, because we need to get somewhere, we need to get that agreement or that thing so then we can be okay instead of just like we can just drop most of that and just—

Yeah, I agree with that. I think there's something to people imagining that if they just analyze it enough, that it will solve the problem or get people to a, like, closer negotiation. But what people actually want is connection. So if we get really present, we suddenly don't have all of these, like, we can just connect with the person. We can just go straight there to what you're actually after rather than Let's analyze it a bunch and then enjoy ourselves, like, so that we can, like, if we're enjoying analyzing something, that's even a different conversation than when we're analyzing it because I'd like to tell you how wrong you are about every, about every idea in this conversation. Or like, why can't we come to an agreement on X or Y? So I think there's something to just being very mindful that if most people are crying, like we're trying to get respect, we're trying to get love.

Yeah.

Or we're trying to get connection. And those are all really close together in what they are. So if we just go straight there, all of a sudden that solves a bunch of problems without needing to do all of this analysis and processing.

So how do we go straight there? Like, what does that look like?

Well, it's, it's simple in practice. We just try to appreciate the person that we're with or the the situation that we're in and the moment, you know, get real present in the now and sort of let the past and future fall away. And then all of a sudden it's like, what am I thinking right, right this moment? Well, it's hard to be that upset about anything that's happening right this moment. So suddenly I have a lot less conversation I need to have and a lot closer connection I can have right immediately.

Hmm. I notice I feel that already. Like you speaking to that in this moment is an invitation for me to like drop more into that space a little bit more, to let go of any thinking that implies there's a past or a future or getting somewhere, like any, you know, and just more just here. And I notice I feel more connected with both of you in this conversation and there's like a deeper Relaxing and appreciation that just sort of like, it's like here, just from hearing you name that.

Yeah, exactly. And it's always there. It's what we're made of. So suddenly we have everything we want and we get to be with somebody cool who's also us. So even though they're not doing the right thing in that moment, right. I know they're wrong, but I'd like to tell them why. I think that they'll love it more if I tell them why.

Can you say more about the, like, that's who we are?

Well, we are the nameless space behind the thoughts. We are that mind behind the thought. So that animating energy of life, that consciousness, that's what we are. Meat suit and all the thoughts doesn't seem like it. Thoughts come and go. Meat suit, different, changes, goes away, dies, lots of things. But the energy of life is what we're made of. And that's only always accessible in now, but We get, we get caught up. We start thinking about other stuff. We imagine that we are something that we're not, or that we are, I don't know. And then we like get lost. Like the more caught up we get, the farther away we get from being present. And then also, uh, being present sounds like a doing in that context. It's not, but it's, it's hard to talk about it, but it's kind of like. If what I want is that experience of being with you in the now with no thought, then making an agreement about how we're gonna do the dishes, like, okay, fine, we can do that. But we're made of the same thing. We're made of the same animating energy. So it's easier to connect with anybody from there.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, and I'm just tracking and aware that so much of the cultural and societal relationship advice out there is like, here's what we need to do to work through all our stuff so we can get back to that place.

Yeah. Just like any self-help. Yeah.

Like, we can like, oh, we can— we are at that place.

We can like tap into that place. And then yeah, there might be some agreements to make or some things to do. But so much More enjoyable and obvious from there. Yeah. And there's so much less negotiation to do. Like there might be still some negotiation to do, right? Like it might be really annoying that somebody's doing something like you, that's okay. But it's so much easier to deal with from here in this nice place than it is from like my 3:00 AM self that hasn't eaten and has been crying for 2 hours and like also You know, could just stand to have a hug, right?

Yeah.

I remember the, especially like not going to bed angry thing. I remember having an insight around that when I was like a middle schooler from working on a school project. And my mom, like regularly, if I was deep in like creating a project and was having these little perfectionistic tendencies come up, she would come over and she'd be like, you need to be all done now. Like, it's 6:00 PM, you're done. You can work on it tomorrow. Like, no more. She was not the parent who was like, push through and do the work. She was like, the quality of work you're doing now, like, it's going downhill by the minute. It's time to stop. I promise it'll all be better tomorrow. And I'm just suddenly that's occurring to me. I'm like, oh, I really— took me a while to translate that to relationships. Because definitely my first marriage, I did a lot of the like, let's solve the conflict at 1:00 AM. But I'm like, whoa, that was like profound parental advice.

It is. Like, I did not have those parents and I have great parents, but I had the just keep going until it's done parents. And, and yeah, that's, that's exhausting. But how cool. Like, how cool that you got that. Yeah.

Yeah.

Like there's something even in the realm of just like basic logical efficiency.

Like we could have this conversation at 10:00 PM for 4 hours, or it will either have completely disappeared by the morning or it might take 4 minutes when we're well rested. Yeah.

That's why I find that I can pretty easily get the logical thinkers on board with this thought process. That's me. I'm like, yes, sign me up. Oh, it would be perfect. Yeah. We'll finish in 5 minutes. We'll, then we'll go to lunch. It'll be good.

Well, I think we covered every— it sounds like all my questions fell away. I'm just like, yeah, that's kind of it. Okay, cool.

I mean, another thing that occurs to me is like bad relationship advice that's out there, and it very much ties into this, is that like marriage or partnership, whatever, it's like marriage is hard and hard work. And marriage is all about like compromise. I think that's really bad relationship advice.

It is. And it's also really sticky because there's so much marriage concept going around. Like it's just, there's like how to be when you're married, how to be a wife, how to be a husband, how to be, how you should do marriage, right? What that means, where you should live, how you should sleep, what you, you know, whether you should have children or not, whether they should be perfect because you're married or not, like how they turn out because you're not married. I, there's just so much that it's almost, I hate to say like computer virusy, but it feels like that to me. Like I've got it. Like I'm not getting married because I'm just like, I'm nope. Just like I have too much, like so much thought about that, that I could either unravel it or I could just have a good time with my partner of 9 years. Like we could just really enjoy each other or I could like try to undo my concept of marriage. Right.

Yeah.

So then you can buy into the word marriage and sign some papers.

Yeah. Right. Or you just go like, I don't need to do all those steps.

I like that.

Yeah. Like I could have a contract with the government or we could just have Sunday afternoon. Right. But I understand and I admit fully that I have some stuff around that. Now I don't have any problem with anybody getting married. It's just that I met him at a time when I was like, I don't know. I'd only been divorced for like a month or two and I was kind of like, yeah, great. Like, don't wanna get married. Perfect. Let's not do that. He said on our first date, he goes, I never wanna have children and I never wanna get married. I was like, yes, that's—

Where do I sign up for that contract?

Yeah, I will make that agreement. No problem. And I agree. Like, I still feel that way. It's really nice. And because of that, there's not this like extra, like we don't live together. We could live together, but then we'd have to compromise on a lot of things like. where we sleep and like how much noise there is in the house and what we want to do at 7:00 AM and all that. So there's all this less pressure because of that that I enjoy. Now I could try to overcome all my thoughts on the pressure. I could just like not, not do that to myself. I mean, I mean, one day I might decide to, to go ahead and try to work on that or something, but I'm not big on— Working on psychological things anymore. I used to be really, really a fan. I'm not anymore. Uh-huh.

Yeah.

What was the shift for you from being a big fan of the psychological work to not?

I just realized how, I just saw how unhelpful it is. Like, like what I think about myself, it's not that helpful. Like the more I think about myself, the more unhappy I get. So like, there's a direct relationship, like haven't eaten, thinking about self, like feel bad. Right. And it's so touchy that I realized at some point, like, oh, all this analysis, just like, it just feels bad. Why would I try to feel worse in order to feel better? Like, that doesn't make any sense to me, but that's what I was doing for a really long time. And so Now, if I read something or whatever, I'm just doing it cuz I'm excited about the work, or it might have an insight or a new idea or bring like a concept that's cool. Cuz all of my big changes have been less thought. Like, so why would I be like, yes, let's analyze. And, and, and, and also like the humans made up most of the thing, the concepts that we're using to analyze as well. Like the Psychological Association was a mystery school. And then it turned into a scientific organization, right?

I did not know that. That's fascinating.

So, I mean, that was 100 maybe plus years ago, but we're like, we're, we're funny because we're just trying to feel better, like, and have a nice life and achieve what we want to achieve. I can make a lot out of that or not. And I definitely have, like, I used to love analyzing things. It's probably why it feels so tight and like awful now. Making me tired. I did a lot of that. I did 4 lifetimes worth of that. We're all done. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

I, I don't know. My partner Jonathan like does not like to be analyzed either and he's really sensitive to it. So like the minute he hears some kind of coachy thing come outta my mouth, he's like, whoa. Like, I don't, I don't like that at all. Like, I'm just, that feels bad. I want to go. And it's nice because it keeps, it keeps us like having a good time and honest.

So one thing that sparks in me, like, I'm imagining someone listening might hear this and be like, like, where's the line between like, aren't you just avoiding something? Like, where's the line of like avoiding of like, Oh, I'm not gonna get married cuz I have the, I don't wanna work through this thing. Or like, like it almost sounds, I can imagine someone listening being like, this just sounds too simple and too like, like, aren't you just bypassing something?

I mean, yeah. And okay. Like, like, like I'm gonna be the one that has a knifeless afternoon after this. Right? Like, I could be bi. You know, I, I'm willing to admit that, like, I have so much thought on, like, marriage. Like, yeah, I am just sidestepping that whole concept, but I don't see a problem with it because I can do whatever I feel like. Like, I'm a grownup. Like, I can, I cannot think about my childhood trauma if I don't want to. Like, I don't, I don't have to.

But like, the analogy that comes to mind is being like, I'm scared of spiders. Or no, let's do snakes. I'm scared of snakes. And like, I live, like, I lived in Hawaii for a while. There are no snakes there. So it could be like, I live on an island where there are no snakes and I'm really scared of snakes, so I need to like get a pet snake to work through my fear here. Or I can just go like, I don't have to.

Maybe it's, I don't like that.

It's okay.

Yeah. That's a wonderful way of putting it. I really like that. I might steal it. It's really, that's really helpful because it's like, do I want to do the exposure therapy or not? Like I can, you know, I can get the snake. I can like try to get married again or whatever. Like try to talk Jonathan into getting married. I'm just laughing because that would be a funny conversation. Um, not, not be, you would really, you'd really love that. Um, But that's a great point. Like, why?

Why?

Like, to what end? So I'll feel better? Well, I feel good. Like, if I decide that I, like, really want something and I feel bad about it, that's when I go in and do an exploration. And that's when I'll do an exploration on a regular basis. Like, gosh, I want to achieve this result with work or something like that. And then, all right, that's not really coming together, so what now? Something like that. But if I'm really happy with some area, I don't see the point. Like, I have a really nice life. Like, why? And I like the permission of just like designing the relationship you actually want. Yeah. Yeah.

That's what I'm hearing too. Like the shift, I guess, shift from, from should to want. Is one thing I'm hearing in what you're sharing from, and a way of like, one way of like extricating ourselves from the conditioning and the should is just to say no to the entire concept itself. Like to know that like, oh, marriage, there's like all this thinking and stuff around marriage and like one way to be like, get married and Like work through all, like sort of put yourself into all of that conditioning that, like, for me it's like I could put, oh, and then I have that and I could work through that. Or I could just go like, oh, I'm just a no to that whole concept and all the concepts about that and all that. And then just come back to simply like, well, wait, like what would I actually like here?

Yeah. Yeah. That's a really powerful idea that, that like, okay, like I'm, I'm also not in medical school, right? Like I, I don't have to go to medical school. Nobody's forcing me to go to medical school. Like I don't even want to go to medical school.

It would be so impressive if you were a doctor.

Right. You know, I also don't want to go to law school. Like I don't, you know, I don't need to do that, but I, I don't, I mean, you know, people will argue tax benefits or something like kids or something like that, but like, I, okay. Like, I, I guess I'll pay more in taxes. I also pay more to have a separate home. Like, it's great. It's paradise.

I'm wondering where would just be like fun? Where would we, what would be fun and enjoyable for us to explore? I love this idea. I'm thinking as well of like, I've had this thought of like the same kind of thing of like just being a no to like the concept of marriage. The last couple of weeks I've been thinking about like, oh, I could also do that with like my name, with, with being Kevin Lawrence. Like I could just choose to like stop instead of like kind of work, 'cause I'm sure I got a bunch of conditioning just like, oh, I'm Kev, I, that's who I am.

Yeah.

And there's like, that's still in there. And I thought of the idea of just like, what if I just like change my name and just literally to just be like, just to take off that whole thing and put it over there and just make up a new name. So I don't have, so I'm just like free from that stuff. It's just like, oh, I could do that.

Like, yeah, you can. I did that. Yeah, you totally can.

You did that?

Yeah, I did that. And I've never like—

Tell me more.

Tell me more.

Well, So in the very beginning, when I might be changing my name on this, by the end of this podcast, if you guys have any ideas for my new name, I'm open to it, but continue.

So in the very beginning of writing about relationships, so that's how I got started. I started writing about relationships and then posting it online. And I felt really weird about being me and doing it. Like I didn't want I, I just felt weird. You like, it gave me permission to say what I really thought, even though I could have tried to give myself permission to say what I really thought anyway. I just wasn't there. Right. Uh, I'm closer now probably, but at the time it was real new and I was like, not sure. And I was learning how to be a writer too and learning how to do it well and do it for the internet and all of these things. So it just was a nice container to just be like, hey, like this is This is Coach Me. Like, this is, this identity lives here and I can be this weird screwed up human being over here, but like Coach Me has certain ideas about things and doesn't need to get all tangled up in their own like stuff. And so like creating an identity like that was really helpful. It even took me, like, it took me a really long time to even respond to people who wanted to work with me because in the beginning I would just be like, like I would email, they would email me. And I would just sort of like not want to talk to them. Like they'd want a session or something. I'd just not, I was like, don't offer that. Can't help you. I'm happy to talk to you over email, but I don't want that. And in order to become the person that like does this, I sort of had to just take that her and like separate it out a little bit.

Mm-hmm.

Now it's just a concept, but it was so helpful. Because like at the time, I, I mean, finally somebody was like, all right, what are you doing at 1:00 PM? I wanna pay you over PayPal. How much does it cost? And I was like, all right, fine. Like she's—

I've run out of excuses.

Okay. It was a really specific question. Yeah. Yeah. It was specific enough that it got, you know, got the logical mind working on the actual time, right? Rather than the like who I am, you know, thing. And she already wants to talk to me. Like she's already read a bunch of work. So that, that in the beginning was really helpful. Like that alter ego effect is a Todd Herman concept that I sort of grabbed before I ever heard about it. But yeah, just become, become who you want. And then, then all of this super like sticky identity stuff doesn't get as sticky, especially like for me trying something totally new. Like, like that. is a good example. Like, okay, well, who is this person that I'm trying to be? Like, who, what is, what is this experience that I want this person that's talking to me to have with me? That's easier if I'm not like, I remember when I was 9 and I was a struggling little mess. And like, let's think that that's too distracting for something like that. So yeah, you can just not be Kevin Lawrence. You can just— Try a whole other name and identity. Like, maybe it can be quite fun.

I see an experiment coming up soon. It feels, uh, yeah, I sort of can't, it's kind of hard to imagine myself not running that experiment given how fun and liberating it seems as an experiment.

Yeah, go for it. Like, if it sounds fun, do it.

Why not? It seems so, so simple, so radical, and yet so like Oh yeah, that would, that would do. I, I, I see, I get what that would do, what that could do. And it's like, yeah, cool. Hmm.

Yeah. Eventually it just became me, right? Like it just became normal. But in the beginning it was like, this is just easy. We'll just—

Totally. Totally.

Right. Hmm.

Yeah. Identity.

It's tricky. It's really tricky.

It looks so real.

It does. And like, what will people think about how, about how, I mean, about how I think I think I am, right? Like, what do I think people will think about how I think I think I am? Exactly.

Whoa.

What will we do? When they're privately thinking things about me in their head away from me, what will I do? Like, how will I survive that? It's funny.

What are some other, like, what are some experiments that people could try? What are some experiments that Britta and I could play with in our relationship? Curious if you have any ideas there to like, To kind of noodle around with this understanding, with this perspective, with this, like, what are some things people could play with to like, if they're sort of listening and they're like, oh, this is a little weird, this is different, but also like, I'm kind of intrigued. Maybe I don't want to change my name yet. Like, what else? What else? What could I do?

Like, well, I'm not going to prescribe the listeners to change their name. If it sounds fun, listeners, please change your name. But if it doesn't sound fun, don't.

Uh, exactly.

Yeah. You know, just imagining how you want it to be and then seeing if you can get the other person on board for it is a very simple way to get further faster. If you're trying to get somewhere.

Say that. Imagine.

Imagining vividly how you want it to be, what you want it to look like, what you want your experience together, your life. Well, Mostly your life, right? Like, what kind of time do you wanna spend together and in what setting? Is it all we're ever doing in relationship is having sex, communicating, or like eating food together? Like, we're not, we're not doing this wide range of things, right? Like, we think it's comp— it's not complicated. You're gonna pick out who you could have 1,500 Wednesday dinners with and try to do that. So once, like, once we're done with realizing that that's all we're doing, now we can like— Design our life. And that's what I really do. So it seems like I get in the, the specifics of relationship, but really it's about like, what would fill us both with joy? What would it be like for both of us to have exactly what we wanted our life to look like together and then separately? That's what I do. So what does it look like for you? What do you want it to be like? That's a real question. Like I'm asking.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm just loving the simplicity, uh, the same theme of the simplicity of breaking free from the should and the, the managing of life, the psychology to just like, well, like, what would you like? Like, really, like, actually, what would you like?

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's all. You know, and then you can try to do those things and see how they go. You know, you might imagine something will be a certain way, and then when you get there, you kind of hate it. Like trying out some new kink or something like, oh wow, this isn't great. I thought this would be good, but this is bad. So, but then you can do it with a sense of humor rather than, oh no, like it, my, my dreams are dying. Like that's not ever very helpful.

Mm-hmm.

Oh, I have the, the thing I thought I wanted, but I don't want with, with it when it's like this, that, that's not great. But if you have a common ground with them and you keep the rapport high, then you can just switch to doing some other thing. You don't have to have it be this whole piece of identity that you loved, whatever, shibari, and now you don't. Yeah. Yeah. I like the simplicity of it's like, what do you want now?

Not what did you think you wanted when you met them 6 years ago or last month, or what you wanted when you were 5.

It's like, what do you want now?

Now.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a great call out. That's exactly right. Because I don't know, like I don't eat enough and I suddenly want different things. Like it's a really shifty type of a thing. If we hold me to what I wanted when I was 12, I don't know, actually 12-year-old me had a pretty good idea of life. Like wanted to travel around and enjoy and like, I don't know, be in love. That's okay, great. Like achieve that, you know, checkmark. So now what?

Hearing you say that, I'm, I get this memory of, I think it was like 5th grade. It was like some year of the end of the year kind of assignment. And they gave us something to sort of like reflect on our life and what we wanted. And I'm now remembering like one of the questions was sort of like, what do you want your life to be about? Or something like that. I don't remember exactly what I wrote, but there was like some, but I remember the experience of something like, I was raised Catholic, very like my experience of it was sort of, I think I've talked about it on the podcast before. It was sort of like, God is this man in the sky. You were born bad and wrong, and if you don't like be right, you'll, I mean, you'll burn in hell for all eternity unless you like see the priest and like get forgiven before that happens. So like, oh, if you get your timing right, you know, like, you know, and I remember writing this thing, it's sort of like, I think a part of me wrote like something about Like pointing to, it's sort of like pledging my allegiance to God in a way that, but I didn't really want to, but sort of like hedging my bets. 'Cause it's like, well, I don't want to go to hell. I gotta believe, you know, still some of that kind of stuff. And then I think like sort of in the corner or something, there was all this like more of this like by the way, but more of my truth that was just like, actually, I just want to feel good.

Yeah.

You know, like this, I'm just like the simplicity of like, that's the like genius of me at the time. That's, that's really what it was. And then there was all this like conditioning and then I look at my life and I'm like, oh yeah, I can see how that played out a lot. That whole, that whole, uh, yeah, should trap, all that conditioning and all that stuff. Just like, oof. Yeah.

Yeah. That's, it's, it's amazing what actually having what one wants But not realizing it is like, like I realized on 4th of July. So I, when I was 18, I don't know how I, I don't know how I got the 18 number, but I was talking to Jonathan, my partner, uh, and I was like, you know, 18-year-old me had almost the same day, like 4th of July, however many years ago. And like, it was almost exactly like this. Like we drove around, we like probably Got a few drinks somewhere and we, you know, like went back to his house and hung out. We were in love, super in love at that time. And that's what we're doing today. Like, fantastic. So here I am and now I can actually appreciate it, but I couldn't appreciate it then. I couldn't understand that that was it. That's all. Like, that's it. And it's also so much. So that's beautiful. Like, Yeah, I guess all of my ideas about, you know, who I had to be and all that really didn't make— get me any closer to having the same day I was having in 5th grade when I thought about how I could, you know, also go straight to hell if I didn't do it right.

Right.

And I wasn't raised Catholic. Like, I'm thankful. Thank you, parents. Like, my grandmother actually baptized my grandfather on his deathbed. Because she, he refused their entire marriage, long marriage, refused. And so she had him baptized because he might, you know, he might not make it and he was definitely not going to make it. And, uh, yeah, got to get that done.

Like, yeah.

And I used to think that was such a violation and now I think it's sweet because she really thought like people really operate from whatever they're thinking and believing. So.

Yeah.

She really thought she was saving him. And who knows, maybe she, maybe we'll find out she did. I don't know. But that, that really innocent, like fear and wanting to protect our loved one is what lands for me now. But in the back of the day, I was like, wow, that's disrespectful. Well, yeah, I guess. Like, was it hurtful to have the priest come in there and bless him? No. Like it was fine.

And I hear you saying like from From her perspective, there was like an innocence and a, and like a rightness and a, like, like, like good intentions from her perspective. And then it would be easy. Like, I'm imagining me in that situation. It'd be, it could be easy for me to like make, make her wrong for that and be like, well, that's disrespectful. Or that's sort of versus like what you've been talking about earlier of like, just like, what if sort of like, what if everybody's right?

Yeah.

Like not needing to be in that agreement, but just like, oh, that's in her experience. That is like, that looks right and good and pure and innocent. And just to like not take it so personally and like, oh yeah, that's sweet. Cute.

Yeah. And I really thought it was a violation for a long time as well. But now I get that like everybody thinks they're doing the right thing. Like they really think it makes sense to them all the time. Like me and everybody. So if I can just understand where they're coming from, suddenly they're human and I'm not taking it personally. And like, it might be about me, but that's different than it being like about me and I can't understand it. And I think there's some punitive, like, motivation to that. It could be like, you know, you really drive me crazy when you come home from work or something. But the reason for that is that I'm overloaded. I'm tired. I just want to be alone for a minute. It's not because I don't love you. It's because I just need a moment. Right? Like if I understand that about somebody, I can give it to them. Like, uh, we found out that my partner has delayed sleep phase disorder. So he really likes to go to bed really late and then he can't really be functional very early in the morning. And on any day we'd hang out, he'd like roll up at like 2 o'clock in the afternoon and I'd be wondering. Like, what, you couldn't like pull it together earlier for me? Why, why don't you care about me enough to like want to spend more time together? And it turns out that like he was not functional before that time. At 5 o'clock, suddenly he would become himself. And so like, why am I fighting to spend more time with like a very tired, unhappy person who's trying to do it for me? Like he was really trying. And it's like, oh, I can just not do that. Like his idea of life. Is like, he's trying, he wants to be around me, but trying to do it like this is just gonna, like, we're not even gonna get what we were trying to get to begin with. That connection isn't gonna be there and fun and present.

I'm hearing understanding being—

Yes.

Like really important.

Yeah, really. Like we can almost deal with most things. As long as we can really understand the person's motivation, then we understand that they're confused or that they are like, they think they're doing the right thing.

Mm-hmm.

Doesn't mean I have to like it. Doesn't mean I have to stay with them. Like, it isn't like, okay, now that I understand that you wanna kill me, I'm just gonna stay here so you do, right? Like, I, no, I'm not gonna do that, but it's simpler when we get really that the person thinks that they're doing the right thing? And then understand what they think about that. Like, I've gotten so much mileage personally and professionally out of just asking more questions, just being more curious about like what somebody was on somebody's mind in a very genuine and non-defensive way. Just like, so you want, you know, you want this from me or vice versa? Like, let me think about why.

Mm-hmm. It's beautiful. Yeah. So simple.

Like, it's really very simple.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I had that experience recently with this, like, something new is emerging. There's been conflict in my and Kev's relationship and I shared it briefly on an episode we did where we talked about our like anger waska, air quotes, experience. And I was like so annoyed at him and like wouldn't let myself be annoyed actually, was just like pushing it down. And then I let myself feel that, and then I went into this practice that included really understanding, like really understanding and having compassion and almost working with him and his energy more in a shadow work practice. And part of it was like, oh, what are you really? Like, what's going on over there? Not speaking to him. I was doing this all by myself in a journal. And then like, oh, what gift are you bringing me? And then suddenly I just saw it all. I was like, Oh my God, like what emerged was so much love and understanding and compassion for my like partner who was like working through something really tender. And then instead of me being so annoyed, I was like, oh, I just like really love you.

Wow. Aw.

And it was from that direction of like, yeah, just more rather than making it about me, both taking it personally, but also so attached to like my desire and what I wanted, um, like attached to it. It was more like, okay, let me just like see more about what's going on here. And then suddenly that attachment of like, I need him to show up this way or whatever, just kind of dissolved because it no longer made sense given like what I could see.

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's gorgeous. I, I, I don't know. I had a little conflict the other night that was really similar to that. Like, All right. I really want this thing from you. Like, I really like this thing. Right. And he's like, here's why we're not doing the thing. And, but really why? Not like, I'm not doing it because I don't want to, because you want that that much. Right. Like I'm being punitive because you're being annoying. Not that, but like genuinely, like, I can't give you that.

Hmm.

Okay. Like I can deal with, I can't give you that now. Like, as long as I'm just not imagining that. You could be doing it if I wanted, if you wanted to, but you're not because it's personal, right? Like, that's so beautiful that you got to that, like, oh, oh, actually I just really love him because that's all there is. It's just that when it's like, oh, I'm like wrapped up in my own stuff, like, because I think that if I don't get this thing, I will not be okay. I mean, I, that's what I was thinking. I don't know if that's what you were thinking, but I was thinking like, I don't know.

Yeah.

I'm not sure, not sure if I can live like this. You know, it was like really dramatic.

Uh-huh.

And so, not relatable at all.

Also, yep. Can't, like, also such a good indicator when it like feels like that, when it feels like, well, I don't know if I can't get this thing, then it's like, hmm, probably don't take myself too seriously then. Yeah, that's, that's something I've had to learn many times and I probably will have to learn many more. Yeah. If it's real, if it seems real true and it's real intense, that's probably not true and it's not intense and it's time to like go eat a sandwich. Like that's—

Yeah. Is your blood sugar balanced? Right?

Yeah.

And I think like I can almost hear like the listener devil's advocate kind of question of like, but like what if there are genuine, your extreme example of like, you want to murder me? Like if there are genuine, right? Like, don't let them, like, if there are genuine, like, no, there aren't problems, wouldn't returning to like okayness and love, like perpetuate a genuinely unhealthy dynamic?

I have problems with the word unhealthy because I'm not exactly sure where we, how we measure that. And I'm not saying that I have a problem with you saying that. I'm saying that like, I don't know how we measure healthy and unhealthy. Like, like super unhappiness all the time would be closer to unhealthy, I would think. Right. But sometimes I'm unhappy with something and then sometimes I'm not unhappy with it. So it's like more of a function of mood for me than anything else. Like if it's so bad that I feel like I can't, like I can't go on. I gotta do something about that. Like, it's very human to do something. You, it isn't like, because you understand now we have to keep eating the poison. Like, I know this is poisonous, so I'm just gonna keep eating it. That doesn't make any sense. Like, yeah, wow, they punch me in the face every morning, but you know, there's other fringe benefits. Like, I don't know. Uh-huh. I, I like, I think that people really can deal with things in the moment very well. It's when they start getting into theoreticals like, well, that, you know, that coach person said that we have to understand our partner and I understand that he doesn't really love me very much. Well, great. Go. Like nobody's keeping you. You can go. You just go. Yeah.

Like it's like the understanding makes the next step obvious, whether the next step is like, go to bed or like go have dinner with your partner. Or like really enjoy them, return to love, or it's like leave the marriage.

Well, and there's, yeah, exactly, exactly. And there's the leave the marriage or leave the relationship question is a hard question, right? Because most people don't go from blissfully happy to I'm going to leave the marriage and they really leave it and they never see the person again in like one day, right? They, they like get, they, the mood gets dragged down further and further until everybody kind of Doesn't wanna be around the other person.

Yeah.

Then we get apathetic and then kind of like annoyed. And then if we just argue more, it'll somehow help it. And if we get professionals, like a lot of problems like that are like, I ignored this for 15 years and now I don't wanna ignore it anymore, but it was fine when I was ignoring it and now I'm not ignoring it, but you suddenly need to do something about it, love of mine. Like, I don't know what to tell you. Like, you ignored it for 15 years. If you were okay with it for the 15 years, but not okay with it, or like pretending to be okay with it, that's on you.

Mm-hmm.

Right? Like you didn't negotiate or change the relationship, but okay. Like maybe it's time. Maybe you were okay and now you're not okay. That's all right. But there's not really much help in being like, this is toxic. This is toxic. This is toxic. I keep, I keep doing this. It's toxic. Well, stop. Okay.

Yeah. Well, like, what do you wanna do? What would you like it to look like?

Uh, yeah.

What would you want? You clearly don't like what is happening. Like, what's the, what's the new thing that you would actually like?

Yeah. And, and maybe it's that you spend some time with that person and you don't spend as much as you spent, or you change the, like, the format of your relationship, or you become great friends, but you get divorced because You just don't want to do the marriage thing, but you actually enjoy that human. There's no right or wrong. It's just more like what seems more enjoyable or useful for me at this time.

Yeah. I hear the same, the same, like this shift from like what you should do, what you need to do, what you have to do to like What would you enjoy? What would be useful? Like, what would you like to do? And then it's like 2 different ways of living life. Neither one's wrong. And they're very different experiences of life. Like one is sort of a life of like, uh, you know, like in that like inner, uh, versus like, wait, what would I enjoy? And then like actually creating a life that you enjoy.

And like that question without the bounds and limitations. With that? Because I feel like a lot of times inside of relationships, it's like, I've experienced this in conversation with people, clients, friends, and in my own life of like, well, what do I want inside of the very confined structure I created for myself, which is I have to stay legally married to this person for the rest of my life and be monogamous? And like, given that is unmovable.

Yeah.

What do I want? Versus like, wait a minute, I made that up.

I signed up for that. It's, it's those structures weren't here. What do I actually want now? Yes, exactly. Exactly. Like, nobody's, nobody's forcing you except you really most of the time. And if they are forcing you, well, you don't have as many choices. I'm sorry. Like, you're probably also not listening to this podcast, but Hmm. But yeah, me too. Right? Like, uh, I've done a lot of, uh, fixing and saving relationships. So I really like the conflict-y type stuff. Like, I really like smoothing things out. I love that. And, uh, like the, the converse would be like, given that I have to have this person back and that this is the only love I can ever have and they don't want me and they have a restraining order against me. What do I do now? Okay. Like we can work with that. All right. Maybe we start with noticing that they don't want you. Like, sorry, like not right now. Maybe they will, like maybe later they will. I know very well what it's like to be separated and get back together and that kind of thing. So I don't have a prejudice against it, but most people kind of do. They're kind of like, Ooh, like we can, we have all of this thought about breakups and what they mean and like how they're irreversible and you can never go back. Yeah, you can go back.

You shouldn't do that. It's part of the like, oh, we shouldn't do that. Like, that's bad. That's, I don't wanna do that. That's not allowed. No, we've gotta stay. We've gotta figure this out from within this thing. And then we cut ourselves off from our innate wisdom. creativity, desire that is like free. And it's like, no, well, just, okay, given this, like, what do you want? I keep coming back to that. It's like, it's really simple. Like, well, okay, what would you enjoy now?

Yeah. So whatever we can negotiate, like if you don't want what I want, well, sometimes I can only get it from you, like partner of mine, if it's, if we've made an agreement to be monogamous or something like that.

Mm-hmm.

But sometimes we just go find somebody else and then also add, or, you know, split from, from here and try that. Or, yeah, what, what would you like? What would you like to do? And then we can see if our person will come on board for it. And if they won't, then too bad. But lots of times from that place, from that really surrendered, like, hey, this is what I want. It's so much easier to get it. Like, it's so much easier for them to say like, oh, they, they'd really love that. I'd love to bring that and do that with them.

Wait, wait. You're trying to say it's easier to get what you want if you share what you want with other people in relationship?

Yeah. And if you just do it like really honestly, like right away, like if you just go like, hey, I'd really like this, like interested? Yeah. Exactly. I know. I've been like revolutionary, continually surprised.

That could be a whole book. That could be a whole, it could be a book of just like, sometimes you open the page and it's just like the first page, you know, it's a 100-page book, but there's nothing, there's just like one page that just like says that, you know, the relationship handbook, you know, version, whatever, you know, different. I know that's already been done.

If you wanna get what you want, try sharing what you want.

That's kind of like my style of book too. Like, I've always wanted to do a marriage retreat where I just brought people together and they like had fun and then we didn't do any of the crappy stuff that people want to do in marriage retreats.

Oh my God. That, that sounds great.

Yeah.

Like, so the book would be like, yes, Wednesday lunch you actually want every day.

Not what do you think they want and like, what would be okay for you to eat because you think they're going to eat like, no, like we, too much thought. Entirely too much thought. Mm-hmm.

Hey, but, oh, go ahead, Bri.

Well, just like how many times that's been the case in our relationship where like, er, earlier into our relationship, Kevin shared with me and it was just such like a genuine desire. He was like, I want to date another woman, like at the same time as you, I want to date 2 women at once. And all of my conditioning and what I thought relationships should be and what I thought my kind of relationship should be would have been like, Absolutely no to that. But what was actually present in the moment was like, huh, I'm weirdly not opposed to that. Like, I actually feel okayness and acceptance and curiosity.

Nice.

But I like watched my, uh, like in the moment knowing look at my psychology and be like, you for sure wouldn't be okay with this. And even my psychology was like, huh, we're confused why we're not Fucking and screaming against this. But it was like, I never would've thought I would've been okay with anything that wasn't 100% monogamous.

Mm-hmm.

And there've been like ongoing evolutions of that in our relationship of like different flavors of open versus less open. And it's been like astounding to me to see what like his genuine desire and him not being like attached, but just like Oh, I want this does something different in me. It's like genuine desire can change realms.

Does something very different than like, I need to have this, or you should change.

Yeah, it is.

I don't like what you're doing versus like, I want this. I would really love this. Yeah.

Like they don't, they aren't required in that case to Exactly. Try to perform for you at that point. It's just a genuine desire. Like, I'd like to ride a zebra with a saddle, right? Like, I really would like to do that. That's a genuine desire, but I'm not like, you know, if I don't do this, I'm not going to be okay. Like, if I never do that, I would probably be fine.

Right.

I'm not actively trying to get that solved, but that's way different than if I don't do this, my life would not be okay. And you need to make it okay with you that I find other people or not. Or we're done. Right.

Yeah. I need to, I need you to change. Yeah. I need you to fit. It's like, cause it's like, I need you to fit in the box that you should be in. And then it's like right back in that dynamic rather than this other one that's more just open and like, okay, this is what I want. What do you want? Okay. Given that's what you want and this is what I want. Now what?

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and that's usually why people leave anyway, is they think that it's untenable. Like they can't have what they want with this person in this circumstance. So they have to go. Now that might be true, but it's going to be especially true if the other person's like, you need to be something, somebody different, and this is impossible. And now let's analyze ourselves for 2 days. Like, it's going to be much worse if I try to force you to be different than you are at any point. Like, we're not going to have a good time anytime.

Okay. I have a different direction. I'm curious, somebody listening who like isn't in a relationship, who like, who like wants that and is, and is struggling to find the love that they want.

Like, yeah. Go and meet people. Meet a lot of them. Do it, uh, keep doing it. Do it all the time. Like if you have to make a spreadsheet, I mean, I'm not, I'm, it sounds like I'm being glib, but I'm not. That's what was required. Like go out, meet enough people to where you meet one that you kind of like and try to date them. And then if that doesn't work out, you do it again. And then you just keep doing it until you meet somebody. 'Cause there's somebody that would be interested in spending time with you, especially if you're not all caught up on what they have to be like.

It makes me think of like riding a bike. It's like if a kid wanted to ride a bike, you'd just be like, and they, how do I ride the bike? It's like, well, just like get on your bike every day and try to ride the bike. And that's, that's, that's pretty much, that's it. And just keep going and you'll eventually be able to ride the bike. And I hear you saying the same thing. It's like, oh, you want to be in relationship with somebody. You want to be in connection with somebody in a certain kind of way. So go connect with people and keep connecting with people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

One I often hear just to like the question to take it deeper is I'll hear, especially from women, it's like, well, I want to be in a I don't want a date.

Well, you're, you're probably not gonna be able to do that the first day, but some people pull it off. Like, I mean, some people meet each other on the first date. They're like, yeah, you're for me. Let's get married. And it works out. Like, that's possible. But that's like a harder—

It sounds tough. Yeah.

Yeah. That's like a more difficult way to go about it. Right.

It's like, I wanna just practice on my bike, but I don't wanna practice like riding my bike with training wheels or something. I just wanna go straight to, it's like, okay, like that could work. It's—

This, this reminds me, I just got back from the Monroe Institute where we did, uh, spoon bending. So we did like bending silverware to our specs. And this, this weirdly enough applies to the story.

Did you bend, could you bend a spoon? People can bend the spoon.

You bend the spoon? Yeah. Kevin likes to go to the Monroe Institute.

He's been interested for a while. Could you bend a spoon on the podcast? No, this trumps everything else. If you can, if you could bend a spoon right now.

Right now?

I mean, I don't want to put you on the spot. We don't have to do it, but—

I did it in Michael's kitchen, weirdly enough. Like, so did he actually. Like there's Hi, this is not where I expected this to go, and I'm so excited. Well, there's a story that's related to this that I was just like, yeah, that's totally normal to tell. And I guess, yeah, this shows that I'm out of touch, but they won't get distracted by the actual spoons. Like, it will be fine. Oh, um, I'll, I'll Let's just hold onto it and I'll tell the rest of the story and let's see if it wants to, because it really doesn't respond well to ego.

Like, and I mean, any moment— I'm like, do the performance, do the performance, perform for us, please bend the spoon. And you're like, yeah.

Well, and I'm like, kind of want to, so that's why I know it's probably going to be really hard. Yeah. It's like, and for me, I'm more of a like kind of yin person when it comes to doing these things. Some people will like yell at it, like literally yell bend at it and then it will start to go. So it's not out of the realm of possibility. But anyway, the point that I'm going to make about the spoon bending is there was a, there was a, a co-participant who had, he was used to like being able to do anything that they wanted. Like they were very like accomplishment and achievement kind of a person. And they picked out all of the hardest possible silverware to like take with them. So they were like, okay. You know, I'm going to get this. And this, I saw this fork, it looked like Thor's fork. I mean, it was like, they put a pile of silverware in the middle of the room and you could pick out whatever you wanted. So you got like 3 choices. And the stuff that this person picked was so intense that, and they like, they didn't know that they could do it. And the stuff they picked was really intense. And it, Struck me as interesting. It was like, well, then I'll know I could really do it if I got this crazy, crazy thing. So at one point they handed me their fork and I was like, this thing knows it's a challenge. Like, I don't know how I know that, but like, this thing knows that it's like your, your Everest, right? It's gonna be really tough. Like, it's not gonna do anything for us. Like, get something easier. And they were like, well, I will really know I could do it because I'm really strong. And I, then I would know that for sure it was really true. It was really happening. And I wasn't just using my muscle. And my thought was like, well, you'll know you're not using your muscle when it just like goes. It just feels like a noodle and it goes. It's amazing. But to them it was like, well, I want to get married. What I really want is to be married. I want to be married to this. Like, I want to have the relationship and then everything will be great because we'll be married. No, people want to get married. They don't want to stay married. So this isn't going to solve, like, making it as difficult as possible is not going to solve your problem. Like, it's going to be a lot better to just like work up to it. Like, oh, it's a fun experiment. Maybe I could meet my neighbor. Maybe I could meet the person at the grocery store. I don't need to marry the person at the grocery store. The more weird and attached to the more difficult the goal. I mean, you both know this, you're both coaches as well.

Yeah.

Like the more struggling and weird it's going to be. But if it's like, oh, I really want to get super fit. But the way to do that is actually like to spend 20 minutes every day working out. I can manage the 20 minutes. I can't manage that I'm not a bodybuilding competitor right now. I can't manage that I don't, or I haven't already built this amazing relationship. Like these things are all built. They're all craft. Just about continuing to show up and seeing if Somebody wants to do it with you.

So well said. That was amazing.

Oh, thank you. But yeah, I didn't mean to be distracting with the silverware. I just, it just was so—

That's the best distraction that has ever happened on this podcast, Elizabeth.

It was so great.

Yeah. I feel really excited about the spoons and the story was amazing too, the whole thing. But I do feel like this is a, special moment for the podcast that bending spoons was introduced on the podcast. I feel a little more, uh, the podcast is becoming more of what I want it to be, that we're talking about bending spoons and stuff that they just came up as like some part of me like relaxes a little bit. Like, oh yeah.

Okay. You've reached this, this height, this great pinnacle. Yeah. More, more realm than—

I know we were talking about spoon bending, but I'm like, Something just feels good about this.

Good. I agree. I mean, it's amazing to know like how far, not realize how far you've come until you've come that far. Like, like you couldn't have said, you couldn't have said on the first day of the podcast, like, I'd like to have this amazing experience. Like I would like, here's what it is. I already know. I don't know. Totally.

Totally. So, so where, where can people find you if people want to? Why don't I get in touch with you, improve relationships, maybe learn how to bend a spoon, bend a spoon, or your stories about, you know, currently teach bending, spoon bending.

I'd be—

But probably if people ask enough, you know, you didn't want to coach at first either. So if they give you the time and say, how can I PayPal you? Spoon bending.

Yeah, that's probably not even going to do anything.

Get that message.

You know, dialed in and it, you could probably create what you want there.

You can find me at luxeself.com, L-U-X-E-S-E-L-F.com. And, uh, just reach out, let me know. I, I don't only do relationships as well. Like I'm, because I've realized that like, it's as simple as you said, you just have to keep noticing. So now there's other things to do in our lives. So that's what I end up talking about, but. Yeah, I do love talking about relationships. I'll do it. I'll do it all afternoon. I mean, you drag me out of here, but I appreciate both of your time. It's been wonderful to connect with you. Yeah.

It's been so good talking with you too. Yeah.