#55 - Thomas Krause - Decisions That Set the Stage: The Leadership Cultures That Make Incidents Happen

Interview a dozen safety leaders and ask them, how effective is your incident investigation process? 9 out of the 10 will say, we spend a lot of time on it and we get bogged down in stuff, and I don't know that it really does us a proportionate amount of good in contrast to what we put into it. And that's a shame because properly done, An incident investigation process that is consistent across a big organization can be extremely valuable. So I think AI has a, has a role to play in that respect as well. And like any new technology, new stuff is going to happen. We're going to see things that we didn't even ever dream were going to happen, that, and those things are going to become important. It's a very exciting time and it's a very exciting thing. In my mind, the question isn't whether the AI part is good enough. It's whether we're good enough to use it properly and actually be intelligent in the way we apply it.

You are listening to the Safety Heroes Podcast, the podcast where we delve into the world of safety professionals and explore the critical role they play in ensuring every human goes home safely. Our guests are the unsung heroes and natural leaders of the safety space. If you're in the safety space or have no clue what happens in safety functions, this podcast is for you. Join us as we celebrate these heroes, hear their stories, and discover the human side of safety and make sure it's constantly evolving for the safety of our people. My name is Moussa. I'm the founder and CEO of Pixera and your host for these episodes. Because when it comes to safety, every hero deserves a voice. So, welcome to the Safety Heroes podcast. Hey, everyone. So, today I'm joined by Dr. Tom Krause, one of the most respected voices in safety leadership. Tom has decades of safety transformation experience, over 45 years, which is older than I've been in this world. And he helped leaders see how safety can be a window into culture, decision-making, And how businesses ultimately thrive. His book, 7 Insights into Safety Leadership, has been so impactful to me and the team. It's the first book our safety director, Gokhan, required all of us to read at Pixera. And it's amazing at distilling safety leadership as a topic into practical and powerful ideas that anyone can apply. So, Tom, it's amazing to have you here. I've been super excited to have this conversation with you. Welcome to the podcast.

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

Awesome. So, Tom, I know you probably answer this question all the time, so I'll just have you, you know, reply the way you'd like to reply. But what's the why behind why you do what you do?

You know, it's changed over the years. Early in my career, it was to translate empirical scientific findings that I thought were relevant to the safety task. And then it became a business. And that provides some motivation and also some noise. And then I sold the company that I had started in 2012 and took a few years off and then got bored and started another firm, which is the one that is present. But this one has not, I mean, it's a business. We don't wanna lose money, but we're not really terribly concerned about how much How much we grow or how fast we grow or how much money we make. It's really, at this point for me, it's fun to take on the challenges that have not been taken on as well as they could have been. It's fun to innovate. It's fun to see new stuff happening. The world is changing so rapidly. So how do you keep up with that? What— What do these changes mean to organizational life? All that stuff is very interesting to me in and of itself. It's worth doing. Whether I get paid to do it or not is less important.

And do you feel like at certain points in your career it wasn't as fun, or do you feel like that spark of enjoyment of exploration has always been there?

Running a consulting business can be very stressful and not necessarily fun. You travel a whole lot. Back at the time that I was working on it a lot, uh, there was a lot of, uh, travel, uh, travel across the ocean, travel across the country. And, uh, so that means you're not getting a lot of sleep and, you know, you're, you're on stage, uh, after having taken a long, long flight, et cetera. That isn't particularly fun. You do it because that's what you need to do in order to run the business. But I don't miss not having to do that these days. I still travel, but not nearly as much. And I wonder sometimes about how much is lost. So if you and I were in the same room right now talking to each other, would it be significantly different or not? My own take on that is that there is something lost, but maybe not too much. I mean, And you get accustomed to it so that you can communicate anyway. And the gain is just so huge. I mean, the difference, our difference geographically is days, days of time to be in the same room versus minutes. So I do think there are better ways to do it and worse ways to do it. And so part of, I think, the adjustment is to figure out how to have the real conversation that you want to have, irrespective of the mode. So not to let the mode control what happens. I think that's, I think, and I think that's doable, at least to some extent.

Yeah, it's so interesting you bring that up. I think like in my journey, I think because everything is so fast and the nature of what we're doing, you and I here, where we're just calling each other on its own, just creates the sense of everything has to be so efficient and quick as well. So, I find myself running where everything is just kind of like a light-touch activity. And I'm trying to invest more in trying to see people face-to-face and slow down and be more intentional and deeper. Whenever I can, like if I knew I was traveling to the US soon, I would've tried to say like, like, Tom, let me try to come by and have this face-to-face. I try to always optimize for face-to-face conversations with our clients because yeah, the, the, the comfort of always optimizing our time, I feel at least in my gut, impacts the relationship depth that we can create and the learning depth that we can create and just being able to slow down and do things at very high quality instead of just rushing through. Yeah,

that seems right to me. And you, you can tell the difference when you, uh, when you go out to dinner with someone and spend a few hours getting acquainted and talking with them at leisure. You learn things in that conversation that you never would've gotten to, uh, or it'd be unlikely that you would get to them over the, over the tube. And then you say, well, gosh, that really was different, you know? Yeah, yeah,

absolutely. And I think you're lucky. It seems like, I mean, hearing you say this, you're in this amazing stage of your life where you can just do things that are fun and you're— you don't have to be trying to operate a very complex business that's delivering complex consulting work. And yeah, what you mentioned now quickly resonated to me because we're a fully remote team in a way. We do have small pods in the UK and Germany and the US, but we just had an offsite A week ago, and, you know, 45 people in one location, and that we were there for 3 days, but people were just blown away by how much value they were like, how much they're able to learn, how they're able to bond when they've been working with each other every single day, you know, for the past 12 months. So yeah, the honestly, like, I wish in a way, I wonder how valuable, as you're saying, I just don't have an answer to how valuable this remote part is because. just the face-to-face aspect of humans as we learn so much about each other. Body language is a huge part of how we learn subconsciously. We're feeling each other's energies and we're connecting and all that stuff is kind of put to the side a little bit. So yeah, if we were to take a step back, you know, as I think about your journey and you've gone through this where you had to do the work you had to do and now you're in a more creative space. What do you feel like has been the evolution of, you know, safety leadership as a topic? And what are you excited about mostly in today's world?

There has been an evolution. I mean, it has changed. There was a time when the leadership function with respect to safety was primarily support Providing the resources that are needed, allocating sufficient time, being sure that things were done, that resources were available. And but that has changed to, to real leadership, meaning influence over the culture. And I think Paul O'Neill probably had a lot to do with changing that. I don't know if you, you probably don't, you probably know him by name, but not by in person. I was fortunate to consult with him way back when he was the president of International Paper. And then when he went to Alcoa, he took me with them. And so across his time at Alcoa, and then after that in his government work, and then with patient safety, which was a very strong interest of his and of mine, we worked together on that. him over a long, long time period, and he was an incredibly effective leader. And what he did was different than what other leaders did. So he didn't just allocate resources and say, well, have you got what you need? Tell me what you need and I'll make sure you get it. He did not— he did that, but he did more than that. He was inspiring He would say things that would make leaders, operational leaders, kind of wake up and say, holy cow, what in the world does he mean by that? So, I mean, he met with the stock market people when he first took the job at Alcoa, and they were asking him, well, how are we going to know if Alcoa is making it or not? And so on. And he said, well, if you want to know how Alcoa is doing, look at our safety numbers. And they were just completely shocked with that. They thought, what in the world is this guy talking about? So it was that kind of leadership. I mean, he would say things like, nobody should get hurt at work. Pretty straightforward. Nobody should get hurt at work. And he really meant that. He really meant that. He would give his, he would visit a site And if he thought there were issues there in what he saw, he would give his telephone number, his cell phone number, to the audience and say, if there's something safety-related that you can't get done, call me. Now, that was in part a mechanism, but it was largely a statement that was being made and that other leaders at the location would hear and would influence them. So the That kind of cultural leadership, that kind of leadership that says, look, this is what we value around here. This is really important. We're not just making words. It's not just money. This is actually a human value that we have. And you want to work here, you got to embrace that value. That's, that's how it's going to be. So nobody should get hurt at work. So I think that's a, that's a very big change. And there aren't, uh, Very many Paul O'Neills. And it's very, you know, there are plenty of leaders who will— I'll be consulting with and they'll say, well, what should I be doing to get the safety piece to work better? And it's not easy to convey that it's not just a matter of going through the motions and saying certain people are in there, certain programming is in there, so on. There is a kind of cultural leadership that really makes a difference. And you do see those people. They're out there. but they're the minority.

As you were talking about this, and it's amazing you were close to that world or that experience with Paul O'Neill, but it fully relates to culture within a normal office environment. So, I feel like as a CEO, prioritizing statements like, no one should be very anxious or scared at work, You know, at that level where some people you feel are like mentally really struggling or feeling psychologically unsafe. And when these things happen in small tidbits and companies, they're really disruptive to the person and to their health and to their happiness and to their families. And even at that level, I feel like if a CEO learns to prioritize that as a base across the organization, you should start seeing this similar impact. That's ultimately what he was doing, but it was focused on actual, like, physical safety first.

I think that's right. The, the problem is that that's a, that's a, that's tough to do. That's a hard thing to do. Uh, it's not hard to say, but it's hard to do. I mean, you're running a business and you have shareholders and, uh, they've invested their money and they want a return on that investment. And that's not an unreasonable thing for them to want. You know, you have a business, I'm gonna give you money to run this business. Good. But I want an investment. I want a return on that investment. And so you've got the very tricky task of running that business in a way that gives me a return on investment. That's not a simple thing to do or an easy thing to do. There, Out of 100 people, probably 99 of them who would not know how to do that, would not be able to do that. Even those that have MBA degrees and have worked and so on. I mean, it's a— there's some art, there's some science, there's some personality stuff. So running an organization profitably is tough. And, you know, you have government changes, you have geopolitical changes, you have tariff changes. You have all these things that you can't predict and you still are expected to produce a return on the investment. So in the midst of that pressure, you want me to be really nice to everybody and to take into account their feelings about things and what their experience is of working together and are they getting the things that they need and so on. And I, You know, I, yeah, I'd like to see that happen. I'm with you on all of that. I value that, but I've got to run this damn business too. So, I can't say that to you. If you talk to me about safety, I can't say, well, hey, I got to run the business. You have to— I have to say, oh yes, of course. But when it comes down to the decision-making that's going to matter, To how well we do the safety piece. I'm the one who has to make those decisions and I make them. It's not just like all you got to do is figure out what's safe and then do it. You also have to run the business. So it's very tricky to pull all of that off. Now, O'Neill got the idea that it was profitable. It was— Profitable. beneficial to the business to have that kind of culture, a culture that valued safety. That meant you valued people. That meant you took seriously what kind of experience people were having at that— in this job. And it turns out that that creates profitability. So, there's really no conflict there. But if as a leader, that may or may not be obvious to me.

It's definitely an art as well, right? Like you can't take it at face value and say like, because every business is very different. And I think approaching it from the heart where ultimately the scenarios that come to mind are scenarios where I know I could have handled situations differently. And of course, running a business is very difficult, but The way I approached the situation made someone specific doubt their skill set, doubt if they're going to be staying at the organization. You know, it put them in a very tough situation that I had. I was completely blinded to, and it did impact like it did resonate. And these things keep happening in the organization. But I feel like the root of what you're saying, taking that as a foundational step, like. Just never compromise on making sure you're treating humans with compassion, but at the same time be able to be tough on the decisions where you need to be tough. But the moment we break the concept of care, it's where these things fall apart. And having complete trust in the fact that it's actually good for the business and good for profit is a journey that I feel like CEOs have to go through. It's difficult to really believe it when you first start.

Yeah, I think that's right. That's right. Easy, easy to say, hard to do.

If we were to pinpoint some of the examples, I mean, you've done quite a bit of consulting. I'm sure some of them have been very successful and some haven't. And it's all about people transformation, I feel, right? Ultimately, you're trying to storytell and help people learn and understand how they can do better. What comes to mind as fundamentals that you think leaders should

Yeah. So, I was doing an assessment once of an organization, and in the course of interviewing people, I kept hearing about this one person who was described as a great safety leader. And the first time I heard about him, I thought, well, that's nice that someone is known that way. And the second time I thought, gosh, that's really nice. And the third time I thought, boy, I want to meet this guy. This is something really great. good is happening here. Fortunately, he was on my list to interview. So, when I interviewed him, it was obvious that this guy was in it. He was into safety in the right ways and with some deep, deep-seated commitment, and he was very skilled and he was really good at it. And so, I asked him, have you always been this kind of a safety leader? And he thought for a minute and he said, no. And I said, well, how— what happened? How is it that you got to be... So incredibly effective in this way. And he said, well, I was, it was a long time ago. I was a plant manager and I had twin daughters who were getting ready to go off to college. And my wife and I were very concerned about their wellbeing. We had grown up in this, they had grown up in a small kind of rural area. They were going to go off to the city. It was going to be a different life. And we were worried about their well-being. And they, and so they both left. They went to the same place. And about a week later, about 3 in the morning, the telephone rang. I was the plant manager. I knew, like every plant manager knows, that the phone ringing at 3 in the morning was not going to be good. And I remember very well thinking, I wonder if this is about my daughters. And that was sort of terrifying to me. And I picked up the phone with that in mind. Well, it wasn't about my daughters. It was about a young man who had been there for about a month who had been killed in our plant, my plant. And he said that the juxtaposition of Me being worried about my kids and now hearing about somebody else's kid who had been killed at my plant just was overwhelming to me. And it did something, some reset happened deep inside that changed the way. And I said, well, okay, that's really fascinating. What did you do differently? And he said, it wasn't so much What I did differently, it was the way in which I did the same things that I was already doing. So, I served on incident investigation teams. I went out in the workplace and talked to people frequently. I considered expenditures that would make the workplace safer. I talked about new initiatives. There's a long list of things that I did as a plant manager. I continued to do those things, but I did them differently. They meant something different to me after having had that experience.

Yeah. The moment the leader loses like the compassion behind, behind like the people that they're dealing with and it just ends up being an activity or a job, I feel like that's the twist, you know, like when I'm in the state where I really care. And it's interesting because leaders typically hop back and forth because When I'm stressed because something is going badly with a client and I'm just trying to fix it, suddenly I'm this different human. And if I'm in that phase for a long time, I see the impact on the business and the performance, the people. What's very interesting as you're saying this is I feel like the founder's mental state or the CEO's mental state has a direct impact on the whole organization's performance. at a very fine level. You know, if you're at peace, you're kind of like observing, giving people space, compassionate, everything goes well. Like you feel it across the board. And if I'm not at peace, suddenly I start seeing other people not being at peace and they're having issues at home. Like I'm having issues at home because the energy kind of translates across the board. Do you, do you, do you see that too?

I do. And I, The question for me as a consultant is how do you get at that? So how do you help leaders who are not there to get there? And over the years, I used to think that the best way to think about it was behavioral. So does this person exhibit the right behaviors? Do they conduct, do they do the right things, the right behaviors? I've changed my view on that to think about it nowadays as decision-making, that the way that inner state that you described shows itself in the milieu of day-to-day work is by the decisions that I make. And that's something we've studied a lot over the last 10 years. I've studied it in relation to serious injuries and fatalities, for example, and it's fascinating and it really sheds light. If you want to understand something, some organizational activity or phenomena, something going on in an organization, you want to understand it, one way to get a hold of it is to look at the pattern of decisions that have been made. that underlie that thing, that are related to that thing.

And can you elaborate a bit more? So what sort of decisions do you see in the different arcs?

The way we have studied it is with serious injuries and fatalities. So as you know, there's this thing that over the years, many organizations see a consistent decline in smaller injuries, recordable injuries. But at the same time, they do not see that same decline with serious and fatal injuries. That's something we studied 15 years ago with a group of companies to try to understand what that was all about. And out of that came a rethinking of the traditional Heinrich triangle and a different way of emphasizing the right things to do. to get at serious injuries and fatalities. That research actually was pivotal in changing, seminal in changing how the world thinks about that stuff. So as part of that, after having done that original research, we were aware of Kahneman's work in cognitive bias. Daniel Kahneman, early book in the '90s on cognitive bias. And we thought, well, if we studied individual fatal events and looked at them through the lens of decision-making and the kinds of biases that undermine good decision-making, what would that do? What would that tell us? And so we developed— Excuse me. A method of finding the set of decisions that preceded the event. So there was an explosion, people were killed from the explosion, the worker failed to follow the procedure, And it's clear that that failure to follow the procedure is directly related to the fact that there was an explosion. And the incident investigation may stop right there. Well, damn employee didn't do it right again. How do we fix these employees? How can we get them— can't we get them to do these things safely? What about, let's get these behavioral people in here and get those behaviors to— To go right. But that turns out to be exactly the wrong reaction. The better reaction is to say, well, what decisions were made previously that set the stage for that employee to not follow the procedure? And if you run that down, what you find is that there were a whole set of decisions over a period of time. even a period of years that made it possible for that event to occur.

Huge volumes of decisions just kind of manifested in that explosion that ended up happening.

Yes.

But it's, it's many things that connect to each other, starting with,

right,

you know, probably someone being, someone being in a bad state and making a bad, you know, bad decision to start.

Right. In, in the, in the particular case that I'm thinking of, There was combustible dust that had been allowed to accumulate across that facility. So there were actually 2 explosions. The first one killed the operator, the second one killed 2 additional people. But the decision to allow the accumulation of combustible dust had happened several years before the event. And that's one example of many, many, many kinds of decisions. And so So we've studied now almost 400 of those, and these patterns of having decisions embedded in the system that are not necessarily visible and that are pivotal to the incident occurring comes up over and over and over. And, you know, people like James Reason has been saying that for a long time. That in the, in general, the thing that we're doing that's innovative is to make it more clear in particular what actual decisions were made to create the thing that is called normalization of deviance, where we get used to doing it this way. That's just how we do it. We don't think about it. We don't realize that it is substandard. Because that's the way we've done it. That's the result of leadership decision-making. Now, does that mean it doesn't matter what the employee's behavior is? Does that mean if you have a kid going off to college— I'm sorry, going off to a job in a factory, and they're saying, well, tell me what's important. You've been in a lot of factories. I'm going to go work in this factory. Tell me. What should I be paying attention to? Should you say to them, well, there are going to be things out there that are hazardous and they're because of the decisions that leadership has made. So it's going to be hazardous out there, but look, it's not about your behavior. Don't worry about the stuff you do. They're going to tell you to wear this equipment and follow these procedures. Don't worry too much about that stuff because that's just behavior. The real thing is decision-making. You're not going to say that, right? You want your kid to wear that protective equipment, follow that procedure, do all of those behaviors. So to say that it's important to get at leadership decision-making is not to say that the behavioral piece doesn't count. It's just to say that there's a relationship between those two. And if you want to get the behaviors right, blaming the employee isn't going to do that. What is going to do that is look at the overall system factors, and that means the decisions that leadership make, and then that encourages the right behavior.

And ultimately, it's a lesson for every leader to always take responsibility for every outcome that happens within the organization and think like, what could I have done differently? Or what could we have leaders have done differently? What sort of decision-making culture should we promote across the organization? So it's a culture of always shifting blame away from where the incident happens up to what should leadership do differently to avoid this in the future. It's so interesting. Honestly, the, the thing before we got on the call I was thinking about is obviously all these things are so particular to the human and the person kind of growing and becoming a better version of themselves, being calmer, less anxious to make better decisions and influence people around them as a leader. But if you reflect on today's tools, I think you've done quite a bit of this work hands-on. You visit sites, talk to people. But if you think of where we are today with AI and everything that's happening, how do you foresee technology influencing leadership and businesses in today's world?

So I, I think there are big changes coming. And I think that they could be very, very positive. And I think they could also be very, very negative. AI is, in my view, much bigger than most people think it is, much more profound, will have effects that historians will say, gosh, was that before AI or after AI? It's just huge. And it goes to organizational life, I think, very, very directly. In the safety space, the worry would be, let's put cameras throughout the factory so we can catch people doing things wrong. And that's being talked about. There are people who are saying, hey—

It's happening.

Yeah. Yeah, we put cameras out there and get those, we'll catch them. We'll get them red-handed in the middle of the night doing, not doing the safe thing. That's just utterly stupid and it's going to make things worse. That will create the culture you do not want. So that's to be avoided. Now, it's tricky and not simple because knowing what really does go on Knowing what actually people do, what workers do when they complete this job, having that information is extremely valuable. And so it's very tempting to say, well, why can't we just put a camera out there and then we'll see what they're doing? We're not going to use that information badly. We're not going to fire anybody over that. We're not going to spy on anyone.

They anonymize. I know they always anonymize the workers' faces in many cases.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's tempting to think that that would be beneficial, but I would say it's one of those things where there are 99 ways to do it wrong and maybe one way to do it right. And knowing how organizations work, I would, I would advise don't, don't go there. Certainly don't go there now. There may be a time when you'll have sufficient trust and you'll be able to actually do that with the involvement and engagement and support of the workforce. And maybe there could be something good about that. But in the meantime, I think there are other things that could be done that are better. One of those things is to find the combination of variables that accelerate risk, and AI can do that in a way that is more elegant, more useful than the way that we're doing it now, just because of the, of the—

Meaning like capturing data in different parts of the operation and trying to always predict what could go wrong based on the inputs? What do you mean by that suggestion?

Yes. So an example would be the pre-job planning process, which is a pivotal point in the way the whole thing works. In that pre-job planning process, if you knew that there was a combination of variables present that day in that situation doing that particular job, and that combination of variables raised the risk level significantly, you, you could take different action than you would have otherwise, and that could be extremely beneficial. You might also accelerate the process of doing incident investigation, and you might design incident investigation systems in such a way that they would identify patterns that would be extremely helpful and valuable to know, but that you don't actually see these days. So, I mean, typically incident investigation is done badly. That's not A criticism of any particular company, but just, you know, call up, interview a dozen safety leaders and ask them, how effective is your incident investigation process? 9 out of the 10 will say, we spend a lot of time on it and we get bogged down in stuff, and I don't know that it really does us a proportionate amount of good. In contrast to what we put into it, and that's a shame because properly done, an incident investigation process that is consistent across a big organization can be extremely valuable. So I think AI has a has a role to play in that respect as well. And and like any new technology, new stuff is going to happen. We're going to see things that we didn't even ever dream were going to happen. That, and those things are gonna become important. So it, it's a, it's like, it's a very exciting time and it's a very exciting thing. The, in my mind, the question isn't whether the AI part is good enough, it's whether we are good enough to use it properly and, and actually be intelligent in the way we apply it.

There's just so much work to be done and, and so much transformation at hand, uh, over the next couple of years. So something that we're seeing hands-on now is the learning process, like upskilling workers, is going to become way more adaptive than one size fits all, right? So you can learn about the person quicker. And like, just imagine a world where privacy is not a concern, but based on your inputs and based on the mistakes you make, you can like be way more adaptive. In the employee's learning journey, but after the employee gets onboarded and upskilled and goes out of sight, exactly what you said, like doing your pre-task check, just using voice or taking a picture of the activity, breaking down that pre-task into different categories and saying like, great job, Tom, you did capture most risks, but did you consider this and that? And maybe you should involve the team more. It didn't seem like they shared their thoughts. And then ultimately feeding that back to the system so that, as you said, if the risk, if certain points are triggered, like report that back. And then the fact that now you understand the person way better and you understand the supervisor and the team way better, even if you have an incident or you have an investigation, cycling that back to everyone and doing microlearning activities and keeping connection to everyone through, I think just the world of safety is gonna become way more elegant. I love that word you used. Way more personal to the individual, and I feel like a lot of it is going to be individual-based versus organization-based. So it always goes back to the human doing the work and the human having you know something that they trust that helps them in their day-to-day activities, helps them upskill, helps them grow. Let's see. There's so many exciting things that are that are being worked on. It's just fundamentally when I read your work and I I learn more about leadership. it always goes back to deep personal growth that the person has to go through. And ultimately, we, we go there when we have space and we're empowered. And, uh, so I'm excited to see how, you know, people could grow as leaders in that future. From your perspective, I think as we wrap up here, uh, anything that you'd love to share or anything that you're— any event or anything that's happening in the future that you'd like people to know about? Any work that you're doing that's exciting, please, we'd love to learn more.

We're working on applying AI to incident investigation in the way that I've already talked about, but that's very exciting. And if that is combined with the decision-making analyses that we have done, I think it becomes very potentially powerful. But it's early days. I mean, we're just getting started with that. We'll probably form a study group with a group of companies, which is a method that we've used a lot in the past. And we did that with leadership. We did it with CIF. This would be a suitable way to approach the use of AI. I think that's the main— Main thing that I'm thinking about these days.

I love it. So you're really going deep into the world of AI and like ultimately it's, it's such a revolutionary technology that spending time there versus anything else will probably get you the most fun and the most impact.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Awesome. So I hope we hear more about it over time. Um, thank you so much for, for coming on this, Tom. It's always good to see you and it's great to get to learn more about your journey.

My pleasure. It's fun, fun to talk. Yeah.

Thank you for listening to the Safety Heroes Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to click follow. Until next time, stay safe.